Russell Targ & Lance Mungia | Third Eye Spies, Remote Viewing, SRI, & The CIA

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00:51 Which means you'll unfortunately never hear my voice again. 1930s President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed the nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the fireside chats His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times. I'm Greg Carlwood These are the higher side chats. All right, people how we doing out there from sunny San Diego? I'm Greg Carlwood and today really is the treat of treats because although many of us are clued in on both the power of consciousness and the high strangeness that's been explored by government agencies like the CIA in secret We are in the minority

01:45 And it is unfortunate that most folks still find the conversation around psychic spies, ESP, precognition and remote viewing to be eye-roll worthy despite the fact that the CIA has released over 70 thousand documents on The Stargate Project in recent years. A project that went on for two decades but was officially closed in 1995 after a CIA report concluded it was never useful in any intelligence operation. A massive slap in the face to those involved and not to mention a bold faced lie Because when you really dig into the material, you realize that individuals like Pat Price Ingo Swann and Uri Geller were so effective and so accurate that there was no way the secret keepers of the CIA would disclose that you could mentally penetrate black sites or see Russia from your house with just a little conscious attention in an afternoon's worth of training. It seems the real secret about remote viewing is not that it didn't work but that it worked so well as to render secrecy virtually obsolete

02:41 Well, the compelling saga of The Stargate Project is the subject of a new documentary by today's guests Russell Targ and Lance Munguia entitled Third Eye Spies that finally discloses the truth and gets those involved with the project to talk about it first hand while they still can. Of course our listeners probably know a little bit about the psychic work done at SRI by co-founders Russell Targ and Hal Puthoff back in 1972 – work which received the infamous CIA contract just a few years later But Russell is also known for his work as a physicist, pioneer in the development of lasers and retired senior staff scientist for Lockheed Martin as well as author of many illuminating books such as The Reality Of ESP A Physicist's Proof Of Psychic Abilities Limitless Mind A Guide To Remote Viewing And Transformation Of Consciousness Do You See What I See? Memoirs Of A Blind Biker Lasers In Love ESP & The CIA Meaning Of Life

03:36 And as I mentioned, he is also joined today by filmmaker Lance Munguia who is known for films like Six String Samurai and The Crow Wicked Prayer. Together they have corrected the historical record and released what I consider to be the best documentary on the true story of CIA psychic spy inconceivable so let's get into it! The Third Eye Spy Guys themselves Russell & Lance welcome to the higher side Wow that was an awesome intro thank you very happy to be with you it's a mouthful but you know i gotta give people the contacts you gotta get him hooked. And man wow this is just a real honor to have you guys here and help put some eyes on this film really as a mind blower i learned so much that i didn't know, and russell i know you've been writing about what you could for years now but

04:24 The release of this film, I mean it has to have offered maybe a new level of relief or satisfaction in getting the record corrected because to have the CIA be so dismissive of the work when you really knew how truly effective it was that had to be kind of tough right? Well the important thing about this film is that we were able to get the cooperation of the CIA. So the actual two operators from the CIA who talk about their being polygraphed are on camera with us. So you've got Kit Green, who's the physician and Ken Kress, who is a scientist are both on camera looking at you and saying yes we were there when Russ did this stuff it's true and the thing that happened is really as they describe it and it was really priceless to get the CIA to testify that the psychic spying we did from them really occurred

05:19 Yes, that is an accomplishment all its own. And Lance I think it's so commendable to use your filmmaking talents to do something like this. I know you even got some people as Russell just said like Ken Kress to speak on record for the first time even if his questions did have to be vetted by the CIA but how has this process been for you? You must be pretty proud I'm incredibly proud and I'm incredibly relieved that we got the film out and that the films being well received. We've been in the top five pretty much for about three weeks now on iTunes, which is blow mine because we debuted there so there's a real audience for this type of material

06:01 already sort of inherently know that there's something to their own intuitive abilities and maybe they haven't been told the whole truth about it. So I think that this is really sort of a groundbreaking thing, its gonna really upset People's apple cart in a way, you know and I think that's a good thing because we need that now and then so i'm just absolutely Honored to have been a part of this film with Russell You know who was the producer of the film with me? And also everybody else that was involved because I was stunned. You know one of it One of the things that really got me involved with the film was I was just absolutely stunned by how many credible Incredibly smart people had taken part of this It was amazing to me and I just felt like it was a story that absolutely needed to be told because it hadn't

06:42 Mmm, cheers to that. Yes and the scope is definitely something to behold! And Russell I think most listeners here are on board with remote viewing as a viable mental ability broadly speaking but what can you say about the protocols or limitations of these abilities just to flesh it out a bit more? Can you give us a better idea of the shape of remote viewing overall and what it can do I'm happy to do that. I want to answer your earlier question, I am relieved to have this film finally available from YouTube and iTunes and Amazon because until the film was actually on the screen available, I was always worried the CIA is going to come after us and say we changed your mind because the material we present in the film had been top secret

07:30 And it was ineligible for downgrade. So broke my heart as we would do remarkable remote viewing where somebody would describe a, Pat Price would describe a crane in the Soviet Union and show it right down to the nuts and bolts and then they would stamp that ineligible from downgrading which means that 20 years could go by and you still couldn't tell anybody about it So I feel that finally while I'm still alive, I am able to tell this story because nobody else would tell it. There's nobody else around who would tell the story of our 20 years remarkable psychic research and psychic spying The remote viewing that we're talking about is an ability that we all have in which you quiet your mind And you are able to describe and experience what is going on at distant place

08:26 or in the future. So what's secret is that anyone can do it now some people are better than others just like a musical ability everybody can learn to play the piano little bit But some people will get to Carnegie Hall and those are very few. Similarly, our great superstars like Pat Price and Ingo Swann, Helen Hammond, Uri Geller were in a class by themselves they were A-plus psychics but there are quite a lot of other people we trained at dozen people from the US Army Intelligence Command and they set up a psychic spying corps in Maryland

09:08 So these were army guys and their boots and leather jackets suddenly become spies for Army intelligence. So the ability is really quite available, and one of the things I wanted to get across in the film is that this is not an exotic occult ability as part of being human we have that ability and even a scientist can do it You know, Greg it was amazing to me that Russell's passion for this. I mean that was really another thing that kept me going over the years of making this film was you know... This is a story that he obviously wanted to tell but it was one of the biggest things we discussed when we first started was Is this even going to be allowed to be seen? That was actually a really big concern To the very end we thought, I don't know maybe somebody right now from CIA or some other agency is making a phone call to the studio and saying Guys! You can't release this

10:04 Yeah, I mean i am pretty shocked. I'm fairly cynical about what I expect from the CIA so this is really great! I guess we'll take it when we can get it and as you learn more about remote viewing little details emerge that kind of speak to the mechanisms involved that just blow my mind like if you're trying to hide something apparently that makes it easier to see in psychic space? That's curious but I guess, I'd ask when you're looking at a particular place how is seen with the third eye different from seeing what the first two? Well in the business of hiding things in psychic space where they line from our great psychic Pat Price. Price was retired police commissioner who came to us in the early days of our program and he was given coordinates of something that our contract monitor

10:56 i can't read what did you describe so he was given a slip of paper with latitude and longitude that's the way to say pat, add pads that are is there this collection of big radar antennas in trucks going out and buildings then. You can go down into this building on the basement of the building their bunch of racks of equipment And the name of this place is Rackup and Q-ball, 8 ball all sorts of billiard names. Program that he saw what turned out is what he described as a top secret national security agency and it's a listening post nothing could be more secret than what you describe. American security the listening post of the NSA or the super top of the top secret things so this nice retired policeman

11:59 dog into that and describe the not only did he described what was there but the names of the programmer top secret so we had a big inquisition sri, cia was called an nsa with source hell and i say wanted to know why would you see target the psychic to break the code of the NSA. So everybody was upset about that and finally the NSA guy turned to pat price is it if you're so psychic why didn't you describe the thing where your current coordinates actually sent you which was a log cabin. Just over the hill from the sugar grow facility,

12:44 What price said i was coming in at fifty thousand feet over the hilltop psychically i saw a log cabin but then i saw this giant facility with huge antennas and i assume that's what you wanted me to say, because you know it's like a space the more you hide something the more shines like a beacon. And that little epigram has been our theme through the whole program. The more attention you have on hiding something, the more it shines like a beacon in psychic space and that was Pat Price's experience. Yes I like that and its just interesting because a lot of targets are things like secret facilities, secret submarines nuclear facilities and the first thought is well this is because of the intelligence gathering

13:35 application but maybe it's also in part the fact that when you're out there and psychic space those things that are secret shine up more so its kinda like a very convenient part of the process that actually works for the CIAs application. I absolutely agree with that Greg. One of the things that's been shown again and again through all of the remote viewing experiments, it is not just the more you want to hide it but just the more consciousness itself placed on a given object, like for instance if the same target is tasked by multiple remote viewers over a long period of time they find that they statistically can get better outcomes because there's just been a lot of attention placed on it. You know you asked before about what's the difference between looking with your eyes and looking with your third eye or your psychic ability and I would

14:29 Russell can chime in on this, but I think that it's an imaginal ability. It's something you're using your imagination and we tend to always discount our imagination. We get probably strange images in our mind all of the time and we just kind of filter it out as noise And what I think SRI and Russell and all of the people who worked there figured out was, no we should really be paying attention to these sort of just unexpected little blips that we get on our mental radar. And I think that really was the secret to their success was not only were they doing that but they were looking at really big things like you say that made it very convenient to see because a lot of other people were thinking about it

15:08 Yes, when people kind of think about remote viewing I imagine that they generally have this sort of out-of-body aerial view impression but that's not always true right because there are cases of getting inside places that really you shouldn't be able to get into at all and actually reading details like names on files. One of the experiments we did, Ken Kress asked us. He was a contract monitor from the CIA. Sometimes he wanted to know where's the hostage or where is the airplane? And sometimes they would just give us a test to see how accurately we could do and one of things they ask us to do is can you describe Brezhnev office in the Kremlin

15:53 and he knew that I'd never been inside the Kremlin. And the psychic I was working with, my friend Hela Hammad who's an experienced Life Magazine photographer but she was brought into our program as a control Kit Green who is a physician said we know that Ingo Swann and Pat Price have been psychic all their lives can you find us somebody who has never done this before? And I asked my friend Hela who's a very intelligent German refugee, came to America with the photographer work for Life Magazine. Woman for all seasons always game and she thought it'd be very entertaining to come from LA where she living to be a psychic spy for the CIA and be paid to be psychic She just thought that was the funniest thing anybody had ever offered her Sure I if you show me how to do it I'll come into

16:53 And she turned out to be the most statistically successful of anybody in the program. compared with the great Ingo Swann, Pat Price. Well you really put her to the test how accurately can you describe place after place? Hela was a top psychic in the program and she was brought into the control because that's just should be an inspiration for anybody who hears this and would like to try it because what we found is that the inexperienced control was the most psychic person we ever saw so

17:29 Hick Green asked us to describe Brezhnev's office. So I sat down with Hella in our little shielded remote viewing room and she said, well, I'm walking down a hallway covered with red brocade and at the end of the hall there is a door covered with leather and that red leather is held in place by big brass upholstery tacks – that's what Now is my job as a interviewer see i never know what the answer is but i know what the customer wants to hear, can i know that it doesn't wanna hear about the front door he wants to hear about what's inside.

18:11 So my job is like the priest at Delphi 2,000 years ago. There was a psychic sitting on a tripod at Delphi in the Oracle and the priest would ask her questions and have to keep them all rolling until the question from the customer was answered so I sort of played this part that had been set up 2000 year before. I was the interviewer. So when Hella described the door with Brass upholstery tax i said well why don't I open that for you can see what's inside as though I can reach out and open the door in the kremlin.

18:50 but that's like the lucid dream we're both participating in. And she said, well the door is open but it dark inside which would be appropriate because they are nine hours ahead of us so I said okay i'll turn on the light Stella what do you see now as you look around and she said well that's much better if I look out the window I can see Red Square and I see the churches with their onion domes on the left and on the right I see a big wooden desk covered with the big sheet of glass and behind the desk, there's a wooden wall to the door in the wall. So i said well why don't we open the door and see what's there? And we walked into the door and walk down a flight of stairs and she said well those computer bays on the left that are right big racks of computers at that point i began to feel frightened

19:48 Because I have a lot of clearances at that point, but was not cleared to be in the computer bay of the Kremlin. So I felt sort of flash or paranoia closing in on me And in my interviewer framework, I said we've told them enough. If she's what Hela said is correct they know that we've been in the Kremlin and the Brezhnevs office so I said that's terrific Hela let's get the hell out of here and it turned out that two years later I had left the program and I was giving a lecture to the Soviet Academy of Sciences in the Kremlin

20:29 And everybody thought that was very interesting. I told them there are no secrets anymore and they found out the most shocking thing of all, they said well is there anything you'd like to see? As a matter fact, I would like to see Brezhnev's office. I don't have to meet the premier, I just want to see where he sits." So they walked me out of the big lecture theater down the hall opened the door, covered with red leather and I could see his desk on the right. And out the window I could see The Kremlin, The Red Square and she had given a picture-perfect description of Brezhnev's office as I got to see for myself two years later."

21:14 Who's the kind of thing that we were doing and i work with a psychic no idea what the answer was. I could keep the ball rolling so she would continue to describe what was there and then somebody will get feedback at the end, so i will consider very successful experiment when i was able to come back in the yes you described exactly where is their wow yeah it's just so fascinating that It seems like it's no harder to see something 6,000 miles away even if you've never been there than it is something in the next room and that's just a crazy thing to get your head around. Great bringing up the Oracle of Delphi I mean this is not new! Humanity has known about this for a long long time I guess we just forgot for awhile or were steered away from this sort of stuff but

22:10 It's definitely been in the mix of the human story for a long time hasn't it. That's right the buddhist written about this extensively and before christ potentially with a hindu dharma master and he wrote a book which is now known as the Sutras of Patanjali, where he tells about if you want to experience the divine you quiet your mind and you will be able to see into the distance, see into the future heal a sick diagnose the sick but don't get attached to that. These are just abilities which they call cities and there'll be stumbling blocks if you want to experience the divine

22:57 Your ability to see into the distance and see into the future, you know you're on the right track but that's not the end goal. And the Buddhists of the 8th century, Padmasambhava is one who brought Buddhism to Tibet so he was a historical figure who wrote many many books and he wrote a book called Self Liberation through seeing with naked awareness, which sounds like a remote viewing textbook. Self-liberation through seeing with naked awareness And in order to do that, you have to give up your desire to name things and to grasp them. Naming and grasping and what we would call analysis is the enemy of psychic abilities. You want to experience your timeless awareness which is your nature and then you can see into the distance, see into the future and experience your true nature. This was 1200 years ago.

23:55 So as an author, it always makes me happy to find that a book written 1200 years ago is still in print and people find it interesting. But the Buddhas have that as part of their lore from the very beginning. They don't feature it – it's a little embarrassing but the great Buddhist teachers like Padmasambhava and Longchen Rabjan who was less of a theologian rather a genius, helpful writer. This guy named Longchampa in the 12th century wrote in what for us is contemporary English no mumbo-jumbo no deities no eight armed creatures he just told you in detail

24:42 how your awareness is inherently timeless and you're not limited by cause and effect because your consciousness can move into time, into space. The idea that if you think your nature is what you see in the mirror in the morning, then you're in for a lot of suffering. You're really not the meat and potatoes as you see in the mirror but your nature is timeless awareness and you can quiet your mind and move into these timeless realms. And Buddhists are there to help you do that Man it is so amazing and it's just crazy to me that we've had this in the human record for so long apparently doesn't take that much training yet.

25:28 Here we are. So few people even believe it's possible and it's a hell of a lot more interesting than American Idol, I don't know why people are focused on the wrong thing so often but Lance to bring you back in here when Russell broke this all down for you and you learned about some of these biggest hits should we say of the Stargate secret spies give us an example or something that maybe you found most impressive what blew your mind? Well, I actually want to just for a minute talk about what blew my mind about what Russell was just saying because I was sitting here listening to him first of all talk about you know guiding hella Hamid through the Kremlin and And and the way that he was talking. This is a completely pop culture reference I don't know if you've ever heard of Dungeons & Dragons or if you ever played it as a kid have I heard of dungeons?

26:14 Yes, I have. And as part of that game you have this person who is always the dungeon master and he sits there and he has all the maps and he knows sort of the layout of the story in what they're looking for and he guides these other characters, you know, the other kids sitting around the table through this sort of imaginary world and they'll say okay you're coming up on a door now There's two or standing in front of the door what would you like to do now he paints the picture for them and i think that that's what made russell so good as a monitor for remote viewing is that he understood very clearly that this was something that completely lived in the imagination and so it's almost like playing a game it's like she was able to sort of set this

26:58 the tone and help the person that was doing the remote viewing through the world. I find that so fascinating because it is almost like playing Dungeons & Dragons, and that never occurred to me until just now as I was watching him say that. But in terms of the thing that really Really move me the most in it and i kept me going was the second part of what russell just said you know because he talks about time awareness and remember this conversation we had after we had just interviewed can crash who is the undercover, no initial program manager for cia and that we are out in montana. We were driving through big sky country. I was in the back seat and i was actually filming Russell in the rear view mirror like holding a camera, and Russell was sitting in front of me we were just driving through this amazing picturesque landscape and there's all these clouds floating across Russell's face as I was filming him And I thought this is just incredibly beautiful image he started talking about timeless awareness

27:55 The fact that what remote viewing suggests is that you know We are connected to all other points in space and time and outside of space in time In fact, and and that's what the Buddhists have been talking about with all of the great Masters through history have said is that you know You're much more than just what you think you are? You know And we really are only as powerless as we think we are. That was a moment That hit me very hard and it actually i thought about it for actually years after that i mean it was something that is stuck with me, and it was something that drove me i'm not a scientific statement now i'm not here to prove any kind of belief system you know what's not what i'm doing with this film i want to be as objective as possible in how we portrayed the sort of phenomenon because there were so much data to it but you can't help but walk away

28:45 from this subject matter with a better appreciation of sort of the mysteries and the things that we don't know. And I see this again, and again, and again when people watch our film you know they kind of walk out and they kinda scratch their heads and go wow thought I had a pretty good handle on things but maybe I don't. That's healthy that's a really healthy sort skepticism you know it's like a you think all your you know somebody is a true believer they think that no no no actually I think more skeptical of the existing models and that we have and i think that was something that I felt he could really contribute to the overall conversation

29:23 in a bigger way than just sort of psychic spies for the military. You know, to me the psychic spies were fascinating and as a storyteller that's a great story to tell because it's a hook but it wasn't the thing that kept me working on this and kept me working on it until I felt like it was really good because there were many points where we could have just stopped and said okay let's put the film out and it'll be okay you know people will enjoy it. We wanted to make a great film about the subject matter that was always our goal so what kept me going was that it was this idea of of sort of what we don't know and the mysteries. And because I love living in a world where there's a little bit of magic, and a little bit of mystery, and not everything is just completely figured out. Time and time again throughout history science has always had to reevaluate itself, it's always had to step back and take a second look at things. Whenever we get stuck as a species, as humanity is when we think that we have it all figured out

30:24 I'm right, you're wrong. Everything is set." That just sets us up for failure from the time that Columbus tried to ride to the end of the earth and Galileo made his first telescope and man first created fire. This is just another step in that evolution. As Skip Atwater said so nicely at the end of the film he was Captain of the army remote viewing unit at port me he said you know maybe it's not all about psychic spies and gathering intelligence and maybe what this is really about is just another step in evolution towards the evolution of our own consciousness and maybe what that's really about his getting a little bit better feel for other people and for empathy. The world I think

31:09 Can benefit from some empathy about now i mean there's so much sort of lack of it and start separation i just think that's a beautiful question to talk about in the film. So glad that we're able to bring that table great points, And you're right, huge implications for the makeup of reality and that kind of makes me wonder because there are a few comments peppered throughout the film about the CIA and how they were pretty singularly focused on spycraft. They didn't really want to study it any further than just getting results and they definitely didn't care too much about those wider implications I'm curious, Russell. If looking back in hindsight how you feel about aligning all this work with the same organization responsible for things like MKUltra? Might you have done things differently at all? Well we were invited to follow the path of MKUltra because one of our first contact with the CIA was Sidney Gottlieb who ran MKUltra

32:10 First of all, I want to say that I recognize he's a horrible person right up there with Joseph Mengele torturing people and killing people. But he was also highly intelligent entertaining sort of your basic sociopath with the left hand is killing people with his right people. He's quite entertaining and he thought that we could improve our remote viewing if we would give LSD to our subjects but uh we're already pretty experienced with remote viewing and knew that you have to have your conscious awareness available to separate the signal, the psychic signal from your mental noise. So there's a strong analytical requirement to do remote viewing because when you close your eyes you're going to see all kinds of pictures

33:01 and you have to learn to recognize the images that correspond to your distant target from what you saw in the parking lot on your way to the laboratory. So, yeah we're familiar with MKUltra that was not the path that we wanted to follow And I want to say my reason for mentioning Buddhism is not that you should accept psychic ability because the Buddhists described it, but I want to give you the idea that this is not New Age. This was not something that was invented in the years of flower children but people have been studying this and writing books on how to do it for 2,000 years so

33:46 We have some advance, we know modern physics. We can say a little bit about how this must be working to let you look into the future and into the distance but the Buddhas had been quite proficient in perfecting this so that people could include psychic abilities in their lives Yes, that Sidney Golub subtext is quite interesting. I'd heard you talk about that before but man he seems like an intimidating guy to disagree with! Well i can tell you about the very first thing we show in the film so you don't have to believe me and then we come on with a testimony from President Jimmy Carter where

34:32 The Russians had accidentally crashed an airplane into North Africa and the CIA was looking for it, but could not find it. And Jimmy Carter was in on that because the crashed plane although it was a bomber was doing reconnaissance and full of code books so more valuable than a bomber and we were in race with the Russian who will find the Americans or the Russians and CIA couldn't find it because having crashed in the jungle, satellite photography could not penetrate the jungle canopy.

35:11 So, they were so desperate as Carter says in the film that we went to the psychics in California and the psychics were able to mark a map read off the coordinates. And then send a helicopter to Zaire through those coordinates and we found the bomber just where the psychic lady said it would be with a whole investigation showing that Our team with the CIA using our coordinates got a helicopter in a situation where nobody else could find it and so we open the film, will this testimony from jimmy carter like who can you believe if u don't trust jimmy carter.

35:56 Yeah, great. Great guy I don't want to just take it back to what you asked a minute ago though for a minute because i think It's a great question You know? It's something as a filmmaker i ask myself several times during the making of the film is when we talk about these kinds Of things and and we talked about like What they were used for you know Like that the word target Is thrown around A lot in remote viewing but this was actually something that Was used As a tool of intelligence in potentially violent situations when they were looking for terrorists or they were looking for a terrorist training camp in Libya, for example. Or kidnapped hostages where violence could take place and I think it's an interesting thing in terms of anything can be used for good or ill

36:38 You know how put off told me you know sort of off-camera during the? You know making this. You know we had a I was sitting there with him And I said, you know that exact question that you just asked Russell like you know do you ever does never concern you that you were using remote viewing for you know the military and they could have been using this for Some other end that you didn't know about and he said, you know I don't think that wars are created by intelligence You know They're created by ignorance And I thought that was a very true statement because the more you know about your enemy though The less likely you are to actually wind up having to go to war because you you understand more and and I think that's that sort of what Russell's Whole sort of journey has been for so long is sort of trying to bring this to awareness more and more

37:20 you know, because too much secrecy isn't necessarily a good thing. Yes So you get a choice, you can be intelligent or ignorant and most people will choose intelligence over ignorance. And that's the direction we went. Of course half of our work for the CIA was finding downed bombers and describing weapon systems but the other half we published in the proceedings IEEE American Engineering Society magazine and we publish in Nature Magazine which is a prestigious worldwide magazine. So, we published our remote viewing findings in top rated scientific journals in addition to spying for the CIA.

38:13 Yes and it is a curious thing to people as how this would have been unfolded if it wasn't under that umbrella but. Of course it is what it is and its just the tool used for many different purposes but maybe we can get a little bit more into those wider implications of the work maybe hadn't been so agenda driven towards intelligence gathering or we could say now that were kinda past that chapter, and this story's out How would you like to see this sort of knowledge used or contextualized for the wider audience? Well, I'm a physicist so what floats my boat every morning is that we have data from 20 years of remote viewing where you can describe things in the future and in the distance. And I would like to know what part of modern physics describes how that works

39:07 Pondisabhava knew 1200 years ago that if you can float into the future, then your consciousness is independent of cause and effect. If you have a dream tonight I'm something that's gonna happen tomorrow and then you see it tomorrow is there a guy. That elephant in the garden was exactly what i dreamt about last night and i would never guess that they were not part of my wish for filming anxiety but does the damn elephant just like i dreamed last night, So we'd say that last night's dream was caused by the next day's elephant, and that's retrocausal. And the idea of retrocausality is a very hot topic in modern physics— the idea that things in the future can affect you at an earlier time. And the fact that you can experience things in the distance independent of space…

40:09 The thing that we know things are remote viewers all over the world agree on is that you don't degrade your accuracy or reliability by looking further and further away. There's no doubt that you can describe the weapons shop in the Soviet Union just as easily as you can describe the swimming pool across town in Palo Alto. Both of those were described by Pat Price with superlative architectural accuracy, his description of a crane and the spheres buried

40:47 Semipalatinsk in Siberia, those drawings are just as accurate as his drawings of the swimming pool two miles south of SRI. So going 6,000 miles away did not degrade the ability at all. Similarly we know that one of things we had to do Ingo Swann who was really the father of remote viewing, Ingo named what were doing remote viewing And he got us into looking at outdoor lifelike targets instead of guessing what's in the envelope. Swan said, if I want to see what's in the envelope, I'll open the envelope but you're asking me to do here the trivialization of my ability. I can focus my attention anywhere on the planet or off the planet. You gotta give me something worthwhile doing or I'm going home."

41:44 So Swan was the one who invented remote viewing in the modern era and encouraged us to teach this limitless awareness. Yes, well Ingo Swan was a bold guy! And I guess Lance, the question for you is that film does sort of stick with more easier-to-swallow cases of remote viewing like seeing the NSA base or Even though they're still impressive, I'm curious because there are much further out things that Ingo Swann would remote view like the backside of the moon and seeing dome structures and an alien presence or this story that I've heard you tell where apparently Pat Price was looking at a facility inside a mountain where he saw some UFOs going in and out. Obviously for the film you just want to prove this stuff is possible first before really taking them to those depths but what are your thoughts on some of those further out examples?

42:38 Well, I mean this will probably be sort of a topic that all broach Hopefully someday in another another project because I find all of that really interesting as well But Russell's mantra to me which I really sort of took the heart was one unbelievable thing at a time And then another thing. I've always followed is the kiss principle keep it simple stupid and And there's something totally to that. You take the simplest thing and then you build that up as well as you possibly can, and then there is no possibility that someone can really question what your doing because your just taking the facts and putting them out

43:18 I always say this is sort of like documenting the Holocaust, not that it's anything like that. But when you deal with something so unbelievable if I was just looking at a bunch of numbers on a piece of paper that doesn't have real meaning to me but when you actually talk to people who were there and you actually compare that to data and get a very well-rounded picture of actual evidence then you may not know all of the answers but at least you know something actually occurred that is inexplicable I've read penetration, you know Ingo's book and i've researched all of this different kind of stuff and I love talking about UFOs stuff it's a huge hobby of mine as well to follow that subject matter but

43:55 That stuff is still much more speculative because we don't have a guy that actually went to the back side of the moon to verify what Ingo swan did there Psychically, we do have a guy who could go you know walk around Semi-palatins can look at the big spheres and write an article free aviation week as happened to verify what? You know Pat Rice talked about there So that's what we decided to focus on was just the cases that We knew were really really well documented. And by the way There are many, many more cases that we actually have documented but just didn't appear in the film for the sake of time. I mean so much of it was how do you get this film under like five hours and have people not go into a coma because we're feeding them with so much data? We had to sort of allow it to breathe and just tell the story in a sense that was digestible.

44:47 Really stunning to me that so many times we would show people the film and I would think that we were being very obvious and straightforward about the information, and they didn't get it right away. You know it's almost like our brains have this sort of a filter on them where when its information kind of outside of our paradigm sometimes people really need to sit there and soak it in and be told like one two three times and then maybe they start to come around. And this is a phenomenon that almost every scientist that we interviewed or person who goes out and speaks publicly about this, has encountered is that sometimes people just kind of refuse to see the data and refuse to look at it and allow their minds to be changed. So we wanted something that acted as a catalyst for conversation, and then from there maybe in another project I can extrapolate out to a lot of other things but I will say this that I find it that there's a lot of evidence

45:46 Your consciousness can go anywhere it's not limited by the speed of light is not limited by anything like that and then that would really suggest that. You can sort of for example for with extraterrestrial civilizations. We're probably looking in completely the wrong place You know to make any kind of contact we're looking at radio waves And you know trying to you know use signal flags and I don't whatever but but in reality your own consciousness is so powerful that we're probably just missing the phone calls That were getting from the stars basically saying, you know hey guys were out here because we just dismissed that stuff But it's Still speculative. So that's why it didn't wind up in the film because we really wanted to be grounded in actual data that could have been verified and that was the beauty of working with the US government is, they had ways to verify stuff you and I if we decided to remote view Brezhnev's office or a missile base in China or something We would never know if we were accurate but they had real time assets that could verify everything

46:49 And I think that is why it was useful. So in one sense, yes the CIA was not a place to study this stuff because they didn't care about how it worked they only cared that it did but on the other hand they had tools at their disposal to verify things that otherwise could never be verified so that was a very powerful tool for creating evidence Mm-hmm. Great points and yeah, you gotta be methodical everyone is kind of on their own level with this sort of stuff but I guess once you're sold on remote viewing as a viable tool And then you hear these other things like alien bases on the moon or in Alaska? I mean You gotta wonder because those implications are just as huge and he was right about Jupiter's ice rings before anyone else seemed to be able to observe them

47:37 I mean russell you knew these guys i'm sure i put some credibility and what they say you find them to be credible people right. Well as lance said we try and steer clear of the ufo because we don't have any first hand data about them but one day pat price or psychic policeman came in, to our office at SRI and said, you know I was sitting at the kitchen table and i started looking for UFO bases. This is what a person might do after his coffee or dinner right? And he said I found four sizable UFO bases where they're building stuff

48:16 one of them is in Alaska, Mount Hayes. Another one's in the Pyrenees Mountains and another one was in South America and third one is Australia." And he described the place in Australia so we sent this list to places CIA and they said well that place identified in Australia is in fact a place where there's been lots of UFO sightings and activity. So it was interesting that he should pick that out And as we were finishing the film, I went back to this data and said what the hell is Mount Hayes in Alaska? And it turns out that Mount Hayes is right now a big center of UFO sightings. And even Wikipedia has pictures of UFOs flying over Mount Hayes and sort of the hot

49:11 2019 place to be looking for UFOs. And this was all described by Price in 1974, so he may have been onto something." I love it! Russell, I've also read your book The Reality of ESP which talks about this saga a little bit but also goes on to fold in things like healing at a distance and evidence that at least some part of us survives death. And when you fold in all those exotic functions of consciousness that are maybe outside the scope of the film It's really obvious our models need a little tweaking. And I'm a bit familiar with your eight-dimensional model, but maybe you could elaborate on how these things have shaped your view of what reality even is? Well we... that's a big question! First of all yes i am convinced that some part of our consciousness survives bodily death.

50:10 at least a century of very thoughtful investigation starting with the formation of the British Society for Psychical Research. We had a whole bunch of distinguished psychologists at Cambridge interested, starting with FW Myers who wrote the book Human Personality and the Survival of Bodily Death where he has cases where the medium will describe a conversation with the deceased person and it sounds like a long-distance phone call from the dead. So you have F.W. Myers, who is a philosopher at Cambridge talking to his deceased buddy from the philosophy department and the medium is maintaining the telephone line between

51:01 Myers in the office and the other guy who's deceased. It really sounds like a long distance phone call where Meyers and his buddy are describing what they're going to teach next year, they have to replace the guy who died and the guy who died is describing what classes should be taught and where they should be taught. And it just sounds like you can't really fake two philosophers talking to each other in philosophy speak. If they're speaking philosophy, it's like speaking French or German you've got to actually be a philosopher to talk to a philosopher about those kind of questions so the data from Myers' research I find very compelling that some aspect of personality does survive

51:55 Now with regard to the 8-space model, as a physicist I'm very interested in trying to find a description of how you could possibly have direct contact with something that's in the distance. And in the early part of 20th century Hermann Minkowski worked with Einstein. Einstein had this idea for relativity but he couldn't write an equation that made sense Einstein was a very smart physicist, but he was not a great mathematician. Minkowski was a great mathematician and was already interested in imaginary space-time along with Riemann who also helped Einstein. Riemann was a decade before Minkowski and they were both interested in complex space time. And with complex space time

52:51 What I mean by that is that you've got the four coordinates you're familiar with, that is three spatial coordinates up and down left and right here and there. You have three space coordinates at a time coordinate And Minkowski pointed out to Einstein, if you make the time coordinate multiplied by the square root of minus one. So you have I times the time. You can then write the equations you want for relativity and that worked so nobody notices anymore that relativity actually has an imaginary coordinate that doesn't shock anybody because we've used it now for 75 years

53:35 And what we're proposing is that all the coordinates of space and time do have an imaginary part. So, what we are not doing is saying ESP is pretty puzzling why don't we add another spatial dimension maybe it's a fifth dimension? We're not doing that! We're saying Einstein's four-dimensional spacetime worked quite well If you want a space-time that's nonlocal, which is what physicists talk about these days. Then you need a space time that allows things that are distant in the ordinary space to be available in the complex spacetime

54:19 Now that may be too much to say. It's just a coordinate system, whereas things that are distant in ordinary space like from here to Moscow is 6,000 miles away in complex spacetime there will always be a path through that complex spacetime through the complex manifold. There will always be a path that has total zero distance and we think that something like the complex spacetime that we're talking about will be a description of how ESP works. It may not be our complex H-space, but modern physics agrees that we live in nonlocal space time. Nonlocal space time is

55:08 The hot topic in modern physics is the idea that photons that were born together and travel away from one another are still connected. So if you grab the photon that went to Jupiter, his brother on Earth will notice that the missing twin was grabbed and there'll be a change in the correlation between the two so there's no question that something like non-local correlation Exist between things that are separated by hundreds of millions of miles no doubt. The idea of not local connection and entanglement is the most interesting thing going on in modern physics and we think that this non-local space time

55:56 Is a possible description of what we're saying because the most interesting thing we know is that the accuracy is completely independent of the distance when ingo was asked to describe, what are we gonna find on jupiter when nasa was launching the pioneer spacecraft. The nasa contract monitor one and go to say tell me something i don't know ingo said well closes his eyes, takes a puff of his cigar and says well looking at Jupiter I never noticed before but the big fat ice ring all the way around Jupiter made of ice crystals shining in the sun. And my contract monitor George Pesner said well Ingo you're thinking of Saturn aren't you with the rings

56:47 And ingo who does not suffer fools gladly said no i've been looking at these things for fifty years, i know the difference between jupiter and saturn you ask me about jupiter in jupiter has a big ice rain that nobody's ever seen before. Add eight months later when the spacecraft got there they send us pictures showing the ice rings that Jupiter has. And you mentioned my book, The Reality of ESP I have Ingo's drawings that he made that day of the rings around Jupiter together with NASA's photographs and Ingo was right on the money that the most interesting thing they found in Jupiter when they got there was the ice ring 500 million miles away

57:36 Yes, it is so fascinating. Oh and the point is that it didn't take him any time. That is Jupiter is a space hour away It takes light an hour to get to Jupiter. It did not take Ingo any time to get to Jupiter." He said, oh you want to see what's on Jupiter? Let me take a look he closed his eyes and said well I see these rings. Yeah it is so mind-blowing just the speed in which she could do that Man, this has been so great. As we start to pull this thing together again the film is as amazing as it is historic I have to tip my hat to you Russell in a big way because it's pretty brave To be so bold with the books You've written and now in this film I know much of it has been declassified But it seems like you were gonna talk about some of this stuff either way for me as someone who was really intrigued by secret research and

58:30 Would like to see a lot more of the people involved in these kind of things disclose what they worked on. At least before they pass on forever and we lose it i just greatly appreciate that about you and, before we wrap this up with the plugs for the film everything people need to know i guess my last question is. If you're hopeful that we might see colleagues of yours in other areas of classified research, maybe other things you might be aware of possibly from places you've worked like Lockheed Martin perhaps. Are you hopeful that maybe others will be so bold as to follow suit and throw out some stuff that maybe authorities might not want them too?

59:12 Of course my feeling is that I would like there not to be any secrets as we say again and again in the film, no more secrets. See we're working at SRI and things work better than they surrounded the whole thing with sheetrock and i thought that was obviously ridiculous if hella ham it can sit in my office and describe what's going on and credit version of his office 6,000 miles away. What do you think a piece of sheetrock is going to do? So people sort of underestimate psychic ability and do things that don't make any sense because it's beyond their experience You asked me what are people saying who've seen the film one of the reviews like my favorite review The person said I saw this film and that was so amazing The first thing I wanted to do is see it again cuz it blew me away

1:00:06 That is a great review I'd have to say and as you've said in the past we paid for it so maybe we deserve to know. And i like that phrase too Lance let the people know where to watch the film how to see the extras and any other things they might want to know before i cut you guys loose Thanks Greg. Yeah, right now the film is available worldwide on every digital platform so if you have cable services with video on demand you can rent it iTunes is a great place because we would love to get you on there and write a review about the film if you enjoy it Amazon.com You know you can get it there. You can get it on Google Play YouTube

1:00:45 pretty much just anywhere that you can go and look for it. One easy sort of reference guide to find everything is just to go to thirdeyespies.com, and right there at the top there's all the different links. You can also buy DVDs there or Blu-rays if you want to go to thirdeyespies.com. You can also just join our Facebook group pretty soon I'm gonna make some like Third Eye Spies T-shirts and stuff that'll be there so they'll do some merch as you can also get on our Facebook channel You can also go to our YouTube channel, which is Awaking Universe TV on YouTube or just my name Lance Mungia. That's M-U-N G-I-A and if you just type that into YouTube it'll come right up and I will be doing a weekly series for the foreseeable future there on the YouTube page. Just putting out a lot of this information that did not actually make into the film because there were so many people we interviewed and so many different stories

1:01:42 So many conferences that I went to and you know things that I filmed that did not have time to make it into the film so all of That will be appearing on YouTube and iTunes by the way if you get it there There is a tremendous tremendous extras package that comes with that. There's eight unique really sort of well polished Extra features that come with the film if you get it on the iTunes, but a lot of that Is also in the YouTube channel? That's great. And I think people really should try to get as much of the material as possible because there are these little things peppered throughout by various people and my fingers are crossed for a large and positive response, maybe a signal to let the secret keepers know come on in! The water is fine! You know what were you afraid of? But again, I really appreciate your guys time and work

1:02:31 Russell it's an honor and a pleasure to even talk to you i'm getting i'm getting russell but hey. Take care out there guys much appreciated thank you very much we're very happy that the chance to be with you yeah thank you great was in order and really thanks for having us help thanking for helping us get the word out about this is good stuff and important people know so thank you, you got keep buying a good fight And there it is dear people, there it is. The legendary Russell Targ and his partner in 8mm magic Lance Munguia I thought this was a big deal We've talked about Stargate documents especially lately quite a bit when it comes to Shaman Janir and also the Hollow Fractal show with Joe So now we're talking to one of the key players in that unknown chapter of American history Someone who told Sidney Gottlieb no and lived to tell the tale

1:03:31 And as an interview obviously they're here to promote the film specifically and it's definitely worth being promoted. I actually had to leapfrog this one in the production schedule, and try to turn it around quickly because they're trying to keep the film up on those charts and I get it But i did wanna try to throw some extra stuff in there. And that's kinda the joy of a two hour show it's longer than most are used to and you can kind of do this, two questions for u one for me pattern everybody is happy and not all those oddball questions went somewhere i got the standard michaelson morally response about either and we already talked to her and kami about that

1:04:13 An experiment that fails to detect something does not mean that something doesn't exist. And I believe they were testing ether flow like a river current and they didn't find it, but maybe that's not the way to go about it. But hey! I just took a shot because he is a physicist who has had to adapt the model a little bit to fold in this remote viewing research figured I'd ask and I honestly don't know...I just know what I want to be true But what a career, right? A pioneer in the development of lasers. A pioneer in scientifically testing psychic abilities and then ending your career as a chief scientist for Lockheed Martin... Hmm I had to at least try to bring those themes together working with light and consciousness as well as seeing how you don't have to go too far into the remote viewing rabbit hole or the Lockheed Martin rumor mill before you get to UFOs so it was all worth asking

1:05:11 But I understand the man is 84, doing podcast interviews on Skype. He's happy just to have the freedom to talk about The Third Eye Spy's work and as he says one unbelievable thing at a time you know? Maybe that stuff truly is out of his lane but even if he did know something those might not be his secrets to tell but the SRI stuff is I guess if i was in that position and i couldn't talk about my amazing work on real magic for a good chunk of my life, and the organization i did the work for came out and said it never worked or had any practical application. And then finally later in life i was actually validated, i probably wouldn't go poking that CIA bear anymore than i had to even if i did know some other stuff

1:06:00 And that scene is actually really moving in the film. When Russell's son presents him with some declassified documents that he worked to get released, you can tell that Russell is pretty moved by it and I thought that emotion was also pretty contagious. And I am just a little fuzzy on the exact timeline of everything but if you've read Russell's books It seems like he has been writing about this stuff longer than maybe he should have or getting very close to the line so i'm happy for him and i have just so much respect form two i think this show makes a good compliment too. American cosmic episode in a lot of ways are the conversation about chris milligan's dad who wasn't cool with the cia dealing drugs these times were talking to, or about people who have been within the inner circle

1:06:56 And they're good people trying to do the best they can within constraints that came from the top down. I think most of us should understand the fact that we'd like to do things differently but we have bosses who write our paychecks and thus we don't, just scale it up a bit you know i dont wanna be naive or overstate things about people that are really don't know Who really knows anyone actually and this all maybe touches on the theme of being better at handling conspiracy subject matter. Taking me higher and higher side chats making it more about elevating the discourse than getting high, we don't have to hear that someone has a cia contract in retreat to the corner huddled up making across with our index fingers

1:07:43 I'd hope we can be a little better than that because if we don't have the nuance to tell the difference between a Russell targ and a Sydney Gottlieb. Nobody's gonna want to talk to us and will only set ourselves further back, look like the crazy paranoid uneducated conspiracy caricature that they try to make us out to be and i dont wanna play that part. And i'm sure it's been said before but let's not forget what russell did tell us i think it conveniently naturally fit right at the end of the free show and what a finale because. I followed up on those weird ufo roads that this remote viewing research leads to and kinda said russell you knew these guys trusted these guys,

1:08:27 But they've also said X, Y and Z. Some of them are dead now you knew them how much credence should we give to these far out instances of remote viewing aliens or moon bases? And he did come back with what Pat Price said were the locations of four UFO bases well that's not nothing so remote viewing is real You might as well start trying it right I think it's so crazy that we'll read books about it, we'll listen to an interview like this but then most people won't even take an hour to try. Don't be like that! Don't be like me! I played Apex Legends the other night for six hours The same day I worked out for 10 minutes and meditated for 15 Better than nothing but the balance is as out of whack for me as it is for anyone You know? I got a couple of friends who are talking about going to see a therapist or getting on some medication for their depression

1:09:24 I try not to badger him too much but i do say a couple of things number one if you're unhappiness is situational then work on fixing the situation rather than taking a pill that numbs what is actually up pretty proper response and two try meditation exercise and better diet first. And they say will do you meditate and i say look just because i don't do it as much as i should doesn't mean its not good advice Plus, I'm not the one talking about psychiatrists and antidepressants. But I guess the point is that sitting still and focusing on our breath or clearing our mind sounds like the simplest thing in the world but we'll jump through all sorts of hoops to avoid it. Knock that off! So I hope you had a good time How could ya not want to check out the film? Lance did a great job with it

1:10:17 i know for russell a big element of this whole thing was trying to honor pat price's legacy better than had been done, and you'll see in the film that there is a lot of sketchy elements around pats death. We didn't talk about it today but apparently pat was a scientologist if you know anything about that organization they thrive on intelligence gathering And i would even say blackmail of their own members but pat was telling them what he was doing and who knows if that had anything to do with his death directly but it's interesting. Just another reason to watch the movie and check out lance is extras on his youtube channel waking universe tv cuz there's so much more there are so many little threads that are all interesting, just can't all be talked about in a two hour interview

1:11:08 I'm sure some of you are wondering why i didn't ask if these things worked so well. Why did the program end in 95? Well yeah, it didn't so don't you worry about that! The film makes it pretty clear that some people even being interviewed in it are still consulting in this manner today So, another episode in the bag. If you like the way I put together a show and my line of questioning and all that stuff you know it continued on into the full two hour episode for people who are subscribers of THC+. I give you that first hour for free but we definitely do get deeper in that second part

1:11:46 Some of the extra topics of today's would include using remote viewing to forecast the stock market, Russells ESP training app. The reverse side phenomenon? How much of the project is a CIA still withholding? Russells thoughts on lasers light and consciousness and affecting someone's physiology remotely stuff I really enjoyed definitely added some layers to my understanding And it's where i got to some of my off topic questions but we also talked about this curious little thing. I guess it would be summarized in the sentence before the CIA contract russell was invited to a nasa conference on speculative technology, wear warner von braun tried his psychic training game what is that right

1:12:39 Well, I could go on all day with those little details that I think should be highlighted and underlined a bunch of times. But either way please sign up for PLUS if you like what i'm doing here we have years and years and years of shows And I would love to see hop on the train! The more members We have the more fuel gets in the tank The more clout we have...and the more people I can ask interesting questions too It's the conspiracy podcast circle life But all that said, big thanks again to Lance and Russell. In fact Russell would be the third THC guest with a banned TED Talk or a cancelled TED Talk so we're stacking those accolades! And with that I'll see you next time your move psychic spies CIA secret keepers and those tuned into their own naked awareness... Your fucking move

1:13:34 Carwood, it's your show now So what's it gonna be? Cause people will tune in to Hear another new conspiracy Almost too much Oh we thought this was low It's bad getting worse so Where'd all the good people go They're on the higher side chats cause its everybody's favorite show Where'd all the good people go? He got your Mars, gold and white And then there's Crow

1:14:17 They talk this and that on the highest side Chat testing one, two Now what you gonna do? Bad news misuse Got too much to lose Give me some truth now Who's side we on Whatever you say Turn on the boob tube I'm in a mood to obey So lead me astray By the way now Where'd all the good people go? They locked them up it seems For protesting Monsanto Where'd all the good people go? They're on the THC, my favorite show Sitting down New episode to hear Wanna light a bolt but I fear the police Can you hear me? Can't interrupt me from this friendly conversation Been waiting all week for THC

1:15:24 With the car wood, there's no hesitation Exposing the truth getting to the elite Scams schemes conspiracies and treason It's an excellent show what I need to know Where'd all the good people go? Been only getting hate and fear from all the other hoes Where'd all the good people go Guess that makes THC my favorite show

1:16:05 They talk this and that on the highest side, chat testing one two now what you gonna do? Bad news misused, give me some truth You got too much to lose, we're side of the arm today Anyway okay whatever you say Wrong and resolute but in the mood to obey Station to station desensitizing The nation going gone