Diana Walsh Pasulka | Entity Encounters, The Order Of The Dolphin, & The Electric Raccoon

00:04 The planet's puppet masters almost surely have a plan. There's clearly maybe something there be, but until you've thoroughly tested every last close-tested view the more you think you know the less you really do. Where would we be without THC? They're lying to us just don't know to what degree yeah, where would we be? without THC the higher side chats show great car

00:50 Serenity now, good people of the internet. From the Sunshine State I'm Greg Carlwood and as we meander through our modern lives with little guidance but to make enough money as not die most of our short years here are impeded upon by such a myriad of stresses distractions toxins and temptations that it's hard even assess what unadulterated focused human mind is like let alone capable We inhabit particle board boxes and concrete jungles fixated on screen-based entertainment in a matrix of sophisticated consumer marketing and psyops wondering why we might feel unfulfilled, suboptimal and ignorant. And it's from this place that we have to somehow bring ourselves to carve out space time and effort to ponder the mysteries of reality with any sort of competency?

01:35 Well, if you ask me that goes a long way towards explaining the state of Western culture today and why we find ourselves stuck on introductory understandings of some of the most complex aspects of human life. Consciousness, dreaming energy, the Akashic Record, multi-dimensional hyper objects quantum non locality precognition angels aliens in the vast bizarre experiences of those among us who have been transformed by high strangeness event There is no doubt that our culture makes it harder than it has to be to get a handle on these things as made evident by the fact that in almost any other time and most other places. At least a portion of deeper thought observations and insights into these things are baked into their worldview somewhere but that said anyone who's plugged into the work up today's returning powerhouse gas doctor diana walsh basilica is doing there damn just to play catch-up

02:26 If you don't recall she's professor of religious studies at the university of north carolina williamson, she was here not long after the release of her second book american cosmic which is a wild ride through almost initiatory experiences with anonymous members of the invisible college studying the ufo phenomenon. As well as getting access to exclusive vatican archives and chronicling the wisdom one can gain from both Let it be known that she's recently released a follow-up book entitled encounters experiences with nonhuman intelligences Which builds on the American cosmic foundation and pretty much every way one could imagine With the new cast of sometimes anonymous characters making inroads into life's mysteries And what the core truths are that all these high strangeness experiences hint at

03:11 It feels like a good day to dig deeper, so let's do it. The Vatican Archive investigator high strangeness highlighter and invisible college company keeper Diana Posulka welcome back to the higher side Well, thanks so much. That was an amazing introduction! So happy to be here I try and it really is an honor and a pleasure i loved American Cosmic. I talk about it all the time and Encounters is a great follow-up. So many of the books I read on a whole bunch of subjects for this show are outsiders looking in And it's so rare to sit passenger side with someone who is being brought into this world first hand. American cosmic really took off and clearly some of the characters in encounters found you that way but talk to us a little bit about the impression that american cosmic made and if there is anything from it they might change now your thoughts understandings on these weird topics have grown even more since twenty nineteen

04:08 Yeah, thanks. That's a great question so you know it was received really really well and It was received well by the general audience And it was received well for the most part by academics I think that there were people who were also angry with it and I heard from them and So the things that they were angry about were that it didn't fit any genre So it wasn't a classic academic book. It didn't fit a travelogue, but it had a lot of travel in it. It didn't fit a novel. It didn't fit a memoir and people were really upset about that and I thought that was really interesting because my question is do you really need to have something fit into

04:57 a program for you to get meaning from it, and I agree that it didn't fit into a genre. I tried to make it fit into a couple academic genres but it didn't and I had to deal with that so I actually spoke about it in the introductory chapter of the book where I basically said look This is just going to be what it is. And I think that the kinds of things that I'm studying are changing the way that we have to do at least religious studies and probably anthropology, and probably history so this is...I'm just gonna do it." So I did! It really upset some people who want things to be black-and-white

05:40 And it made a lot of people happy and it made more people happy than it made them upset. So I feel really good about that, I really wouldn't change anything because it was truthful, it was a truthful journey into these communities that I didn't really know existed and it was coming from a person who actually wasn't a believer in UFO's I knew anomalous things happened because I study religion, but I always studied it from the perspective of historical critical scholarship kind of at a distance. Not like it was actually real in your face kind of thing and here it was real in your face and so I did my best to document it and no, I wouldn't change anything about it. Fair enough yeah that makes a lot of sense obviously something that is this

06:32 unexpected maybe, is going to have all kinds of reactions and people love to categorize. Let me ask you then on the journey if you wouldn't go back what do you think are the major things that Encounters adds to your understanding? Great question so after American Cosmic a lot of things happened fast in the public sphere So as soon as it was published or just as it was impressed even before it was published first off I will say this, that as it was in press it was being read by lots of different people. Some of whom put me and Gary Nolan on their radar and sent us a bunch of like harassing kind of doxing types of things right? And at my university account...my email account.. My university phone and his too! So we got together and reported to our university

07:31 police and things like that. And so, that hadn't happened to me ever before because I just do Catholic history right? And it never happened to Gary either because he was just doing you know microbiology So That led me to understand something was on the horizon something was going to happen I didn't know what it was and then while the book was in press or Just as it was impressed Leslie Kane and Ralph Blumenthal and Helen Cooper wrote their 2017 New York Times expose on the government's programs of UFOs. And this happened and then very fast after that, the government came out with this Pentagon report basically saying yes we've been studying these things and you know this is what we found so far and then the congressional hearings and everything. So before the congressional hearings I thought well if i were to follow up with American Cosmic

08:32 I didn't cover in American Cosmic, which was the actual experiences that these people are having. And also, I had a lot more information when I wrote Encounters than I did in American Cosmic. American Cosmic was basically me coming in fresh, not knowing language like legacy programs, crash retrieval... None of that! I didn't know any of that language and then when all this happened, I recognized oh, that's what was happening. I was basically being shown a crash retrieval site. I was most likely with the person from a special access program

09:12 In my mind, there's no doubt about it. I was documenting this and when I look back on it, I have to say, I think I did a pretty good job because I identified all of the components of these kinds of realities. You know, I talked about it...I used different language. I talked about it as a fight club environment where people couldn't talk about what they knew you know, first rule of Fight Club. You just don't talk about it." So I accurately assess the things that were happening but I used language that isn't military. I didn't have any of that language. I'm not military

09:49 So when I look back on it, I think okay well if i got that right. I think I'm probably going to get this right which is basically what is happening to these people like what kinds of experiences are they going through and how can I track it? And I know that for every one person that a feature in the book there's like thousands of people that are just like them and I know there are at least hundreds of people that are just like them because I've talked to them So that's what Encounters is, it's taking the people some of whom do work in the interface of science and space force stuff. And I feature what they experience and how these experiences impact what they do in their daily lives

10:30 And I think it's great too. It's definitely added a lot of layers to my understanding, and i might not always conclude the same things but just to be a fly on the wall and hearing what a lot of these people do think about reality and consciousness and aliens is fascinating! You mentioned that the Pentagon report which came out after American Cosmic has now ratified this new form of religion, not just a new religion but a new form of it. Talk to us about what you mean there and the parallels there are two religions like Christianity that start off as counterculture rebel philosophies and then end up state-sponsored religions once they chisel all the material down to suit their needs because you could make a good case that a similar process is underway with this stuff right?

11:23 That's exactly right. Yeah, so if you look at the history of a lot of religions, the religions are absolutely revolutionary forces and think about it. If you actually do read and because Jesus actually didn't write anything Siddhartha, the original Buddha or I should say the original Buddha. The Buddha we know as the founder of this religion although he didn't mean to found this religion. Buddha is a title that means awake so you know we have...or even Socrates because if you look at ancient Greek they were talking about things like the good and things that were mystical with respect to ideas like truth justice and goodness

12:13 What happened to those people? Well, two of them were killed by their governments. Okay. So I think that there's some very incredibly revolutionary impetus behind these experiences that people have and now that I've been looking at the experiences and kind of done more of a deep dive into the tradition of Catholicism looked up people like Francis of Assisi Teresa of Avila, they proposed some revolutionary ways of being alive. And these ways of being alive were domesticated you could say by the institutions around them. So Francis is... He was the one who received these quote unquote stigmata wounds of Christ and that's such a fascinating event

13:03 You know, it wasn't received well by the Catholic Church at the time. There were a lot of people who said no this is terrible you know he didn't do this, this didn't happen and pushed back on his order, The Franciscan Order so yes I think we can make the case that when people have these events it causes them to question a lot and A government that requires its people to kind of keep going and become a brick in the wall kind of thing, it doesn't want that. So yeah I think something like this is probably happening, a domestication of it because when I look at what's happening with the people who do the game changing technology

13:47 They're actually not reverse engineering parts that they found in New Mexico, you know. In crash retrieval sites are actually having contact with what they consider to be non-human intelligences. Do these intelligences really exist? I never actually weigh in yes or no. What I'm doing is, I'm providing a look into their experiences of what i call extreme creativity and extreme creativity and innovation is disruptive so yeah so I think we're seeing something similar to this with the changing the term you know The term of what people call this in the 20th century and now in the 21st century has changed. So, there used to be a flying saucer in the early 20th century and then the government actually changed that I forgot the name of the man. I just wrote something about him but he was military and he change it to UFO because he didn't want it to be associated with this thing called flying saucers which a lot of people were interpreting religiously they were interpreting it as kind

14:50 end of the world scenario type of events in the sky. And so they thought, nah we can't have this, let's call it UFO and then now UFOs become so filled with a kind of thing that they don't want it to be accompanied with this kind of baggage. They say no lets call it the UAP. So now its the UAP It is interesting the changing of terms and there's a couple of people in the book who make claims about a battle between good and evil that this is the backdrop for reality, and it's funny because it's almost like This thing wants to come through and it keeps poking holes in reality. And the empire, the big machine, the governments and authorities of their day keep trying to plug that hole as a no-no don't mess with that and then they change the terms just to confuse people and get all that spiritual enlightening mystic residue off of it and try to make it just a mundane thing again

15:52 re-emerges. You think that's kind of something that's happened throughout human history? I think in some cultures, but not in all cultures. So when you and I come from this culture, the Western culture... We have a specific type of heritage and we study philosophy and religion so when I look at the revolutionary texts of our culture I see that they're mystical generally. Even some of the philosophers who philosophy is supposed to be not very mystical, it's so mystical! Once you get to the really amazing texts like Jean-Jacques Rousseau, The Social Contract

16:31 He was speaking way before even an inkling of the kind of technology that we have today. And he had a mystical experience and it begins one of his most famous essays, which man is born free but everywhere he is in chains you know? So when you start to get into this these texts which really spoke to me when I was really young I thought you know I have to read more about this You just see that, yeah it does seem like the mystical impetus. Some people call it their religious impulse is a dangerous one and a lot of people once it comes out in a very powerful way there's what I call a domestication process. Yeah! There definitely is

17:19 And this book is way more about the idea of an organic information network outside of time and space than i expected some people say. Like an information field some people use the term akashic record this is something that's been talked about and even in the first book tyler talks about his protocols for receiving downloads download as a term that comes out of so many ufo experiences and tylers protocol for people don't remember. Was that he would say you need to get good sleep low alcohol consumption zero caffeine interferes with the signal plenty of sun plenty of water,

17:59 And if you work on yourself and maybe develop meditation practices, you will start to make this connection. You'll know you have it when thoughts show up in your mind that don't seem like your own and with practice, you can feel the difference. So this is a way to kind of trigger download experience. This is very similar to what happens spontaneously and chaotically to people who have a high strangeness encounter And you also talk about the parallels between Socrates and Jesus that both were promoting a sort of direct knowledge that is pretty similar to the download experience. And they were both kind of telling people, Hey, you can do this. It can be repeatable if you live a certain way. I just see all these things coming together and really speaking to this direct knowledge ability that we have Socrates. I've heard you talk about

18:56 He was against writing because he thought that writing as a technology would take us away from the direct knowledge. He's like, we're already plugged in! Why do you want to write it all down? And then you could see the same thing happening with cell phones. I mean, I haven't remembered a phone number since I started plugging numbers into my phone. I don't even know where-where i'm going half the time because i'm using maps. We've outsourced our whole mind and consciousness to these devices there are folks who talk about technology being a dark thing, kind of the devil's trickery or trickster energy in it. But if the whole thing like if the whole game behind the curtain is to try and keep us from connecting directly then I could see that argument made from writing all the way up to the cell phone being trickery to interrupt our direct connection with God, the universe or whatever but

19:52 I think that's really interesting, these download experiences. Is that how you interpret them now? Is it they're some kind of intermediary entity that's really just plugging you in or introducing you to that field?" Yeah so gosh great! Excellent analysis of both books there this thread that I began with Tyler in American Cosmic going into exactly what I focus on but don't actually explicitly state in Encounters. That's exactly it, so I think that probably if you look at that work and both books which are the products of the research, I believe that the most important thing, if I've done anything is to isolate this process and to isolate how

20:40 how these people describe the process because I didn't ask them to talk about it. They told me about it and every single one of them, the patterns were so almost exact and let me say this as a person trained in the methods of my field we're not going to say... Let's take an example I use because it's so clear is this mathematician who's still super amazingly famous, but he's passed away. His name is Srinivasan Ramanujan and he was an Indian

21:16 Well, he wasn't actually trained as a mathematician. He lived in India as a boy. He taught himself math and he became a genius at math and he went to Cambridge University and he worked with the top mathematicians and his work is so innovative and so amazing that people are still working out his theorems today all right? And when people asked him wow how did you do this on your own? He said I didn't do it on my own there was a goddess and her name is Lakshmi And she whispered these calculations directly into my ear and all I did is write them down. Okay? All right, so then you take Tyler and he's talking about a very similar process okay so we didn't go to Harvard, he didn't go to Stanford, you know, he has just a very basic education but college education but barely. He said that he didn't actually do well at the university at all and I believe him

22:10 But he's a genius and he has all of these patents and he does all this work. And he describes similar process, but he calls the beings they're different so you thought they were maybe off planet beings or extraterrestrial beings or something like that. They would give him these things called The Download. So he was using terminology of today whereas Ramanujan was using different terminology. It could be that I could say that the beings change with different cultural interpretations, but their function is still the same. And that is something that's not inaccurate But I don't want to say that because Manajan believed it was Lakshmi and if he heard me say that he said no That's disrespectful to this goddess right? And Tyler would say you don't know what you're talking about these things actually exist You know and so you see what I'm saying So I'm gonna refrain from defining

23:05 But what I am going to do is, I'm going to say this process is really important. And because I thought this process was so important, I brought Tyler in to talk to my students at my university. So I had about a year and a half where Tyler would come to my classroom And he became quite famous, by the way among faculty and students. The faculty would ask me when is Tyler coming back? I want to go to that class when he comes and I'm like yeah sure so i'd advertise they say okay Tyler's coming everyone! I wouldn't use his name because it called Tyler at that time. So he would come and the students who would be standing room only

23:44 And they really, really knew that this was important for them. They wanted to know everything. They wanted to know how does it feel when that knowledge comes into my head? What's the feeling that you get? How will I be able to recognize it?" He poured out all of his knowledge because he had a generous heart especially for young people So that's what I think is important, honestly. This way to hook up to this... What I would call an organic network. I know people have talked about it. Shardan has talked about it. People calling Koshick Records and but with all of those different terms come a lot of other things so I just like to focus on the process of it

24:25 Yeah, the process is important and it's wise of you to not try to interpret too much what the people say or not change their words around because that's been the problem. Of anthropology for many, many years going to study indigenous cultures. They tell them their experiences and then the Western anthropologists say, oh, that's cute. That's a cute superstition that these people have So, you know a parallel is that you want to just say no this person says this goddess talks to them. Let's just deliver that message as it was delivered to you so I do agree that that's important. That doesn't mean we can't learn from it and take those important processes out of it because he was a devout man

25:13 And I think that's really important. Every single person in my book has some kind of devout practice that they are engaged in, doesn't mean they're religious so I end the book with Len who was an atheist and then now is very spiritual and he believes in a higher power or higher being but he doesn't know what it is, he doesn't name it but he has amazing experiences dreams, he's definitely hooked into this thing Yes and i guess for me when im trying to picture a lot of the stuff i can picture an information field kind of thing and we could tap into it and we are receivers of consciousness and maybe some thoughts come from this place and we receive them

25:57 But what's harder for me to conceptualize or really understand is this intermediary of a figure, whether it's a deity or being of light. Or a fairy or gray I mean, some people think that the projection that you're shown comes from something in your consciousness. I don't think that's always true because there are plenty of examples of people who have gotten a download from some deity and then they learned years later in a book that was a Hindu goddess that they were never aware of anyways. So I do not know if it comes from them but this presentation... Do you think these beings, these intermediaries are

26:35 autonomous, conscious entities or are they just the field itself projecting itself like anthropomorphizing itself so that it can be understood better? So people who thought about this first I'll give you a disappointing answer. I don't know but I can expound on that, or let's just put it this way. I'm still thinking about that and i can tell you personally...I have personal beliefs too that aren't necessarily...i cant defend right?

27:12 You know, I am a practicing Catholic and I do believe in beings like angels but i can't defend that. And you know, I'm not going to go to my department meeting and say oh Saint Michael just gave me a download and said you all have to show up today and do this kind of work. I'm not gonna do that nor would I ever be inclined to. And I could be entirely wrong Okay, because I tend to think that it's the practice. That's most important It's what I do for people and help them that kind of thing instead belief because beliefs change and beliefs sometimes are wrong We could believe that the earth is flat Because that's what it looks like when we walk on it or not falling off of it right there's good evidence that its flat But that belief is entirely wrong

28:01 So as more data comes in, you have to change your belief. That's my position on belief but your question was let's discuss these beings, these intermediary beings and I call them external agents so when I did a lot of research in creativity with the first book of American Cosmic getting into this kind I found that some people who study cognitive science and creativity saw that when people are in very creative states, it's a very difficult thing to study of course because you can't predict creative states. But when they can study them they said the frontal lobe of your brain which is like your executive function where you think you have agency, that shuts down

28:50 And a lot of times people think that the kind of information they're getting comes from outside of themselves. And they attribute it to an external agent, so there's that. So it could just be a function of the way in which we are super creative and that you know we can't attribute it ourselves because we say well I feel like I didn't do that because we don't actually know when parts of our brain are shutting down. We only have that information through these imaging instruments that the cognitive scientists have. So there's that, but it still doesn't negate for me the really weird things like you just mentioned one where somebody has this experience and they get this knowledge and then they find out that its

29:39 Not even of their own culture like a Hindu goddess or something like that, right? From a long time ago that people don't even talk about so Carl Jung actually had a lot of empirical research That talked about this and he termed this He was working on this late in his life by the way before he died. It's called the psychoid So if any of our listeners are interested in following up I'm still learning about it too to this thing called the psychoid which is some type of cognitive thing, you know like an idea or something like that. That apparently has some kind of reality outside of our subjective minds it has some kind of objective reality where we could...like he was beginning to see UFO's as the psychoids species of the psychoid very interesting and

30:29 You mentioned dreams that something i wanted to dive into a little bit more you have the chapter the dream network and going back to american cosmic you have the story of tyler having this hyper dimensional artifact in his backpack while having dinner with a colleague and night has colleague dreamt, the tyler had a universe in his backpack. And then in encounters you write about how many people in the proximity of a ufo who aren't even the person who had the experience they are even someone who saw there is in the neighborhood. They start having dreams and you right about some scholars, in this area that got me thinking about where dreams even occur and how can something

31:11 In physical space that a person hasn't even seen affect them in their dream time is the dream place. Even a place or are these entire realities that are born up like bubbles and then pop when we wake up? Or could such as space be arrived at through a technology like a techno imaginal, Dreamspace I mean maybe that's where VR video games are going anyway like spaces rooms that exist nowhere Outside of time and space that we can engage with maybe thats another analog for a natural ability that we now are making it technology so that people don't have to work very hard to get there just put in your quarter but what are your thoughts on dreams what is this a clue to perhaps if i'm trying too.

31:58 figure out reality and the human beings place in it there seems to be a clue there that ufo's can affect people's dreams just by being in proximity. And the tyler story also seems to be a clue and that same kinda way hyper dimensional object affecting someone who didn't even see it they dream about at night Yeah, so that's all excellent analysis there of what I wrote. Okay so yes! that people were telling me these kinds of things, and I'm talking about people who are the creators of some of the technologies that we're using. Okay? So you know, the apps that we use every day. And so these are deeply creative people and they have the abilities to operationalize their creativity. So when they tell me their experiences, I listen. And one of the experiences that kept coming up was they had a belief

33:00 having dreams together. And that's why I called it a network. So, it wasn't just that they were having these dreams, It was that they saw their friends in the dreams, their colleagues and they would work together on things and then the next day they would continue these conversations that they began in their dreams. An so...I never heard anything like that but I heard SO much especially people in tech communities They would have these dreams and they would have these dreams together and they would know each other from the dreams And so I started to then look into dream analysis. And what I found was that a scholar of islam had gone into There's a huge What you call like work? of analysis of dreams in islam, and with specifics about this type of dreaming and again in

33:57 I think it's called the El Coringa of the Indigenous Australians, which is there are so many different tribes there. But they all have a kind of shared idea of this network that's fascinating and their ideas We call it the dreaming. Westerners call it the dreaming, but that doesn't even get close to what type of epistemology ontology that they're existing within where time is like simultaneous. It's not linear like we experience it by the way I just want to shout out this book because it really changed how I viewed all of this stuff is Tyson Yunkaporta he's indigenous Australian and he wrote a book called Sand Talk

34:43 So, at first if you are not used to this kind of new way of thinking the book itself and how you read it will change how you think because you have to enter into that space through the way he writes. And it's excellent and it describes these kinds of things like the dream realities and things like that so I really had to go outside what do we have? How do we define dreams in... We have a nightmare and then we have a dream And then we can even talk about lucid dreams. Sometimes people talk about lucid dreams, but if you do talk about lucid dreams in our culture You better be careful who you tell because people might think your strange right? Oh what lucid dreams! You know...You don't have those We just have nightmares and dreams

35:28 So there's a whole new kind of like space. All right, so you're talking about the space? So when you do get enough data and you have people talking about having the same experiences in a non-conscious way then you start to... You know, you think does this place have a geography? Can we map this out? And I do know that DMT experiments happening and I think they're happening in the UK right now where A researcher is having people have longer experiences under the influence of DMT and kind of identifying, doing a taxonomy of what they see there and how it all very much corresponds. And I know about this. I know that there are other ... Like a lot of people who are engaged in entheogenic therapy or plant medicine, they'll go with each other into dreams

36:24 or altered states of consciousness where they're seeing the same thing, or report the same thing. So people have been doing this with dreaming and not with any kind of access like instant access so this is again one of these things that I would call something that's an ongoing study for me because it's so fascinating but I don't really have any conclusions about it. I just reported in encounters because people were having these really intense experiences Yeah i mean it is fascinating again going back to the idea that people want things to be black or white dreams are definitely not. I think we probably have all had a couple of,

37:05 sex dreams in our life where just we engaged in sex with someone we know and our general life. We would never broach that topic to the person, and we assume that they probably weren't actually there, that it was just something going on in our own head so it seems like sometimes the characters in our head can be a fabrication sometimes they can be Another conscious human being sometimes they can be a consciousness from somewhere else the spirit or a deity or something strange like that so dreams are not one thing and i know you are not a secret society scholar but i wanted to ask about this cuz i had other guests speculate that the real secret held by some secrets societies

37:49 is that they've found techniques to enter these psychic spaces organically, maybe a couple hundred years ago. And that's the real reason the mystique is so wrapped up in angles and numbers and the whole square encompass thing and their symbolism of a window in the sky or you'll see imagery of a ladder to the clouds and it's like what are they trying to convey there? What are they hinting at? It's like a space between spaces if you will. One might even say You could call this a form of immortality because with some entheogens, people experience entire lifetimes. Like salvia, people will experience an entire lifetime in some foreign place they will get married they will have children and then the drug will wear off and they'll actually come back to this reality depressed They just had a massive loss it's like their whole family got wiped out so if you could find a way

38:45 Reliably trigger this experience of getting to a psychic space and then you formed the community around it up guys in robes who know how to do this maybe they are not doing it soberly i mean i don't know the techniques but there are some interesting thoughts about. Secret societies may be having unlocked such a thing. And these ideas are a little adjacent to things that I heard come up from some of the people talking about dreams and spaces out of time and space in your book? Yeah, that is correct. So they're associated with the topic of UFOs is a community of people at first, I called them The Invisibles

39:30 with Tyler and I assumed that they were people who were in these maybe special access programs. But the more I learned, even after American Cosmic, the more I recognized that there definitely were these groups of people who are for all... Gosh! They just seemed like they're invisible to almost everyone carrying on or at least not recognized. You know, they're obviously human beings carrying on with their lives but they're doing things that are secret basically and so I did write about one of these people actually a child of one of these people because i met these people I met some of their children and some of their grown children and this is definitely something that

40:21 I don't know a lot about it, but i know enough to think that. It's very strange and it's not what we're like...I had a normal upbringing right? So I was like a normal person! Maybe it's a little abnormal to be interested in religion so much which granted is true but you know some people have inclinations to things like art or math But I certainly wasn't prepared to be exposed to these kinds of It seems like institutions that have been around for a very long time, like 1,000 years. Yes! Another thing I liked learning about in your book was the Order of the Dolphin. You write, The Order of the Dolphin was the name of a small group of scientists from the 1960's and 70's who tried to find a way to contact non-human intelligent life. They were pragmatic enough to begin their research on terrestrial non-human intelligence dolphins

41:17 This is also why they chose the dolphin as the totemic name for their group. They kept their work secret, as they were all well-known scientists among them was Carl Sagan Though these attempts mostly consisted of trying to teach animals human language instead of attempting to learn theirs. And you go on to say that you had come across references to the order of the dolphin at the Vatican Observatory, well that is an odd place to find such references I would think but some good points are made in this section about the methods of trying to communicate with other beings as well as the idea of a universal earth language that we've just become numb

41:55 numb to, you get into new processes that they're trying to show children. Because maybe it's our culture that kind of breeds this ability of reading or hearing the Earth language out of us but if we're born and that doesn't happen maybe we can preserve that ability and as a dad of an infant and toddler I was like man this is really interesting! I hope i'm not rooting out disability than my kids were born with But it is interesting. I guess talk to us a little bit about the order of the dolphin, this idea of...I mean if we can't communicate with cephalopods how are we going to communicate with these beings that guard the information field? Yeah exactly so all of that information that you just touched upon comes from chapter one and two of encounters where i discuss the work of Dr EO Whiteley who's fascinating

42:51 All right, so first off the order of the dolphin. So while I was at the observatory, I was doing research obviously as there with Tyler in American Cosmic and we were looking at as much as we could while we were there in the observatory most people don't know that The Vatican has an observatory and they've had one since I believe 1800's And so it's a really old observatory and it's on a hill outside of Rome in Castle Gandolfo, which is a really beautiful place right next to a lake that it's on where a meteorite hit. So it's this really deep lake and it's beautiful. So we were there and I was going through... They have a whole section on, it's called the Search for Extraterrestrial Life. And I said, I'm gonna start here. So I took everything down every day would go with their

43:43 get as much as we could and look through everything. And I kept coming across stuff from, it seemed like the 1970s onward but it could be before that, The Order of the Dolphin. So I took a lot of notes and when I got back home, I started to look into it. And I am in touch with and have been in touch with NASA historian Stephen Dick. He's been at NASA historian for something like 40 years He's been there at the very beginning of astrobiology and exobiology, these very formal ways of trying to find extraterrestrial life like on exoplanets and things like that. He is also an astronomer so not only is he a scientist but he is also historian so every once in awhile

44:30 I'll shoot him off an email and i'll say, I came across this. Do you know anything about it? And so I did! I said have you heard of that order the dolphin? He said oh yeah he says here I've written about in this and this and this... So of course I went looked at up but then he said but also has some other information that I can tell you maybe if we have coffee. So I was very intrigued by the order of the dolphin and yes it was Carl Sagan John Lilly and these different scientists who were working together probably on projects that they didn't name. And they just called it Under the Order of the Dolphin, they did talk about their work with dolphins obviously and Carl Sagan made a good point that we've actually taught chimpanzees and dolphins some of our language but we haven't learned any of their language so you know we have this issue

45:21 And then during that time, I met Dr. Ea Whiteley. Now Ea Whiteley is what's called a space psychologist and she probably created that discipline by the way. She's at University College of London and she's the head of Space Medicine there. What she does is she helps pilots and astronauts deal with extreme places because it's hard to be a pilot, you know? It's hard to be an astronaut and you've got to do a lot of training During her time, though she recognized that the languages of certain things like dolphins and whales and even insects there were patterns that she could identify. And she also

46:08 She goes to Peru a lot and she works with indigenous people in Peru. And she would recognize that they kind of were attuned to the language of their environment, but if you took someone like me and put them in their environment I'd probably die because I wouldn't be able to like... You know? I wouldn't know the language of the environment." But then again, if you took someone from that environment and put them in New York City, they would not know that environment! So she said we're really attuned to the environments But so a lot of us have lost this connection, but we're born with it. And she's trying to help infants and by the way you have these young children now

46:48 You should buy her books, they're called Cosmic Baby Books. And basically what they are is there's these graphemes and a lot of these people who buy the book they're upset because it's in black and white but did you know that babies actually don't see color until a certain? Yeah so she's a scientist she's like it doesn't need to be in color It's only for the adults that need it and they're already too far gone we've already lost our connection So what she's trying to do babies between zero and nine months old to be exposed to these so that they can form neural networks in their brains, so that once they start to learn the language of their culture English French whatever it is. They still have this basis for if they do go out into nature there able to listen at connect with this

47:39 connection that we've been talking about. And it's a really, really interesting project that she is doing. Yeah, it definitely is and it's a good point about It works both ways because I always think about maybe it's a grass is always greener thing, but I think about indigenous cultures being tuned into nature and how. I kind of wish i was more tuned into nature and it feels like something that we lost it seems more important than being able to navigate New York City but maybe that's just because I can do it yeah I do think so I think that I was actually just in New York City this past weekend and i had to leave my hotel because i had a migraine headache and i had to get some medicine because you know, i don't know why i had it but i had it. Nobody had it at the hotel so i had to like go through downtown New York city like 3 30 am So the bell guy at the hotel he said okay You want to stay on this side of the road? Want to go over two blocks this way And i thought He was telling me to stay on that side of the road

48:40 because of people, but he told me how to navigate because there was so much trash on the other side of the road. So at night it was like all this trash I couldn't even believe how much trash like 30 feet by 30 on all these corners and you know this happens every night apparently and they were like rats around it everything I thought what would happen if that trash didn't get picked up Because the next day I went out there and it was beautiful. And I thought, that trash gets picked up every single night! So I talked to some of my friends who lived there and they said yeah if that happened for a couple days and it didn't get picked up think about how terrible it would be right? Not to scare people about New York City but I had not seen this side of New York City right?! Yeah so maybe we're acclimated to New York City but what would happen if all of sudden our life in New York City shifted

49:35 So we would really have to learn fast how to navigate a different type of territory. It's probably good. Diversify your connections to environments is probably a good thing. Yes, and there are a bunch of movies about fish out of water stories where they bring Tarzan into the big city and tries to figure it out but I guess it just seems more authentic or natural to be in tune with the earth language you know if this really is a thing that's part of our environment I would rather learn that language than the artificial city but

50:11 This is something else i wanted to get into because we barely even mentioned the new cast of characters in encounters several of which are again anonymous but you write about carrie mollis who i certainly did not think would pop up and this book. Will u right in two thousand seventeen i spent four days at a small conference in california with doctor carry molas and his wife nancy, I had invited him to the conference because i was interested in learning about his UFO experience. Mollis had won the Nobel Prize for Chemistry for discovering polymerase chain reactions, which we all learned a lot about with PCR tests during COVID. He disclosed his UFO experience

50:50 And his meeting with a small being that he described as an electric raccoon in his cabin in the mountains of Northern California. Mountains, that's another box checked these things tend to happen near mountain sometimes but Mullis was a controversial genius whose views on various topics from UFOs to climate change did not conformed to the expectations that the public had about scientists except for his disdain of being photographed. Gray Man reminded me of Dr. Mullis." Gray man is an anonymous character in the book that you say, if you're trying to describe him, Dr. Mullis is a good template. Well I learned a lot about Carey Mullis during COVID and his death was a serious tragedy because his voice was needed during all of that but here's another

51:38 cutting-edge scientist who has a bizarre experience and I never knew this, an electric raccoon is a pretty wild description. And it talked to him it said good evening sir or good evening doctor or something of that effect yeah he said good evening Dr. Mullis Yeah He's such a memorable person he's passed on sadly but one of my favorite he and Nancy you know two amazing people and I'm so grateful to have known him So he had an experience and it's described, he has written about it in a chapter of the book that I can't remember the title but I think is called Surfing The Mind Fields or something like that. It's great!

52:24 He's really controversial though, so he's not politically correct or anything like that. But he is a genius and he is really interesting and he had this experience. And I invited him to this conference because we had lots of scientist experiencers there. What was interesting was that he just didn't know that so many people who were scientists like him actually have these experiences. It was really a revelation for him and he wanted to come back. Come on, Diana. Do some more conferences." And so he talked about that experience he had. So he had a cabin in Marin County and he was going to the cabin it was at night and he was walking through to his cabin

53:08 was this being that he took a look at and he thought it was maybe like a raccoon, but he described it as being lit up. Like it was all kind of like lit up on fire or something like that so he was really confused and then it spoke to him now this is a common pattern when these things happen people do things that they don't expect like when they look back on it they would think why did I do that? Why did I not take photo of it? Or why did I talk to that thing that looked like a raccoon?" You know, and so he said that he mumbled something back to it. And then the next memory had... He was the next day and he was standing up walking. He's walking and well obviously we were standing up while we walk but he woke up walking fully clothed

53:52 He didn't like that. He didn't like that this happened to him, so he did what Kerry Mullis would do. He had a gun and he went out and shot up the area where he had seen it." Yeah just very wild! It's just another example...and I hear about these things every once in awhile if you listen to interviews someone like Kerry Mullis might mention that they had some high strangeness experience and then the interviewer won't ask any further questions about that. And they'll just go on, and it's like this is probably the most interesting thing that has ever happened to them. And it's like they feel him out. They toss it out. It's like are you going to throw it back to me or are you just gonna let it go? I understand because people want to be thought of as serious yet The more we do open up about these experiences, the wider they seem to be

54:45 That's correct. Yeah, so what he reports in his book is just a small fraction of how weird that event was for him and it actually included multiple very famous scientists and he wouldn't name them at the time because he wanted to protect them you know because they They hadn't won the prize, you know. They hadn't been Nobel Prize winners yet so he didn't want to out them because this was a long time ago and they had reputations and everything but he definitely got into the whole thing and told us all about it and it was pretty terrifying Yeah, it's kind of like tenure. Like you're looking for this milestone where now you can really talk about these things. It really is. And you say Kerry Mullis was a similar person to this guy in the book who goes by gray man but he is someone who also has speculated like myself and a lot of previous guests about this occult preoccupation of people like Jack Parsons and he, like me concludes that

55:44 They probably were having some successes or why would they do it their plate is full enough there very busy at the cutting edge of various sciences and yet they still have this thing that they have not let go and. I think theres way more of a connection me we started this talking about downloads like, Wouldn't it make sense that people who are engaging in the occult on Monday and then inventing things on Tuesday that the world has never seen would be experiencing something close to a download of information that comes from somewhere? Tesla talked about being in contact with some kind of aliens. People just dismiss that stuff, and they want to know about the energy stuff but he's saying well some beings told me about this! That's why I'm at the cutting edge of science

56:31 So I thought that was really cool. Maybe you could talk a little bit about Gray Man and his experiences and his career, really? As much as you can. He's trying to be anonymous. Yeah so Gray Man is like a younger version of Kerry Mullis And he gets this information...he feels like he just knows it okay? He'll get an idea and then he'll implement it and it will be something that is really important and usable by the place where he works. He's Australian, and he works in a place that I can't say, and thus I have to use his pseudonym. And when I use pseudonyms in my work this is the standard procedure for academics, and a lot of people don't know that so I'm just gonna tell you. So when we do human subjects research, we have to get it reviewed by our university, and if the subject requests to be anonymous, we have to assign them a pseudonym

57:34 And this has to be done. So it's nothing that I'm doing for any kind of effect, you know? Or the people are doing it for whatever reason. It has to be done." He is the only one though that has a pseudonym in American Cosmic. Simone Plante she just wanted her chapter to be Moon Girl because that was a term she was known by so just let people know everyone else who they are. So, Gray-Ban has this ability to be scientifically gifted and what's interesting about him is that he had an experience. And by the way this goes back to your...you mentioned it but we didn't get into it, this sphere of influence that a UFO event will have?

58:17 So you can be within a UFO event, not even see the actual thing but have the effects anyway. And this is a pattern too it's called the sphere of influence and you see it with the USS Roosevelt and the Nimitz. The fighter pilots are really the only people that saw these things in the sky. The radar people saw them people on the ships didn't see them. The radar people only saw images of them, but you have varying effects of this on all the different people. So Gray Van was in New South Wales in the 1990s. He's a surfer. He's one of these people that likes to skateboard and likes to surf. This is how he spent his youth and then went and became a scientist

59:03 after he had this experience of very well known and attested to by lots of people who do this research in Australia, in New South Wales. It was a UFO flap And so I looked at a lot of reports of this one flap and talked to various people who either studied it or had experiences during it. So he had this experience, and then later went into his field... He's a material scientist, and then got a job right off the bat at a very important kind of place where they do aerodactyl work and things like that And he met people who, well let's put it this way. He believed in UFOs and had such high level positions that he thought it was amazing that they would even talk about UFOs. He wasn't necessarily a believer actually but he had experiences with greys and he also had other experiences. He is a Christian so I met him through doing this work

1:00:04 So as I was doing this work, this is during American Cosmic. I was meeting people who were part of these kinds of programs and doing this type of work so he was one of the people and he just naturally kind of told me the experiences that he had not because he wanted to write about him or anything like that didn't appeal to him actually but that he had a whole history of these experiences and the reason why it compared to Kerry Mullis is because his personality is similar. He didn't like these experiences He thought that they were invasive, just like Gary Nolan. You know, Gary Nolan was trying to find the cure for these experiences. Like he was trying to create something where we could have more agency and it wouldn't be just done to us kind of thing. Well, Grey Man had the same sensibility. Yeah!

1:00:52 The fact that so many people can check off these various boxes is crazy like the people who don't have experiences like myself. Kind of want to have some but then the people who have more light with this just stop please and i get it it's wild and Man, this has been really amazing. The two books you've written are now some of my favorite and I read a lot of books so that's high praise i'm saying and clearly they're selling well thank you yeah And I know you're in high demand for interviews So I can't thank you enough for putting me on the list! I hope you get another Lex Freeman interview I mean millions of people You know that's a high one so...you did a great job on there before

1:01:34 And I'd like to see these ideas reach a bigger audience because the nuances of all these things, from UFOs to AI and consciousness. We should be talking about them a lot more than we do so thanks again remind people obviously they know where they can get books but your website social media anything they should know about your work going forward? Sure! So my website is dwpisilka.com i teach courses through various academies on Socrates and stuff like that. I also have a Twitter account, DW Pasulka at an Instagram account. And those are the only three things I have. Love it. That's wise keep it to a minimum? Yeah. Awesome well thanks again. I will let you go and do take care out there. Yeah great to talk again with you Greg

1:02:28 Mm-mm-mmm. Last show of the year and what a show it is, Diana Pasulka! She really is amazing I know how well her book is selling and how many podcasts are banging on her door now So I feel very fortunate to have been able to deliver this one to you guys I knew based on how well liked the recent Jeff Kripal episode was that this one was gonna be a great finale for 2023 I personally feel like something just clicked with these two interviews where I feel as if i understand high strangeness experiences a bit better than before. But by its nature this stuff is pretty slippery so im sure it'll be like a profound dream that rapidly starts fading away as soon you think you have a handle on it, still more about giving you guys something to think about but if I got something out of it then Im not alone

1:03:24 Her and I were dealing with a little bit of latency that was getting us out of sync more towards the end there. And the call dropped a couple of times, but we always try to make that unnoticeable and of course not throwing any shade at Lex Freeman there either his style is unique in the podcasting space. I appreciate how deep and how long he talks to a lot of his guests without any kind of time limit I guess i was just ontologically shocked when i saw her on there because it was a little outside of his usual lane by some standards and i like to see people like Diana doing those seven figure interviews. Her new book Encounters is a really great follow-up to American Cosmic, and i actually watched an interview with Gary Nolan right after i recorded this

1:04:14 I don't know if we spelled it out exactly but it's well known now that the anonymous character James in American Cosmic is Dr. Gary Nolan, an immunologist and here are a few things I found interesting in this recent interview he did with Channel 7 you can find on YouTube but he mentions that he saw UFO flyover when he was a kid when he was a paperboy And he says that he saw little men in his room as a child. And when he saw the communion cover, he knew what that was. He connected those two and then later in life, he mentions that one night he woke up buzzing with the message this is how you connect ringing in his head and he asked it to stop and it did stop

1:05:04 But that is so in line with so many things that we talked about today. That's not all, folks! He also mentions UFOs spilling molten metals and plasmas and in one case they've discovered that if you hit this metal that was ejected from a craft with a terahertz frequency it levitates. Then the host asked him another question about that and he says that he specifically can't talk about that So he knows a little something, but maybe there's an NDA involved. But he starts the interview saying that he was asked by the CIA to analyze blood from UAP experiencers because he had some of the most advanced and sensitive equipment for testing blood. I was pretty surprised to hear an interview start that way. That caught my attention

1:05:59 So to me, it seems like in general we're circling around some really important revelations and level jumps and understanding some of this. Almost as if the more the machine pushes the alien narrative, the more we learn from the periphery. And I think that Tyler character from the book that we also obviously talked about today is still kind of anonymous. Not really though you will find a good number of people who are pretty sure they cracked the case and the Vatican Observatory does publish the names of those who sign in to visit every year, so the information is out there. Regardless though I like the angle that experiencers become mystics, that certain protocols can connect you more deeply to the intelligence field and maybe these experiences are the field itself trying to plug in a greater number of people or reach people of some sort of significance

1:06:56 I certainly don't agree with everything the people in the book relay to Diana about their thoughts on the world, but i like having access to their thoughts and being able to fold them into the wider range of information. I like to try to incorporate it into my own overarching worldview we don't often get a window into these sorts of folks but Simone's perspective seemed to be that humans are somewhat stuck and super intelligence is trying to find a way around getting us unstuck. I think the direct quote from the book that i have here is, The first step though is for humans to know or re-know who they really are We are vessels which happen to receive information that IS consciousness and intelligence Call it God or superintelligence

1:07:47 If the mind viruses distract us from this objective, do we really think infinite intelligence will just give up and say oh well entropy it is? Of course not. Infinite intelligence will find another substrate to fulfill its evolutionary purpose of expansion be it silicon biological hybrid or something else We need to remember who we really are our consciousness doesn't reside in our brains as much as love resides in our biological hearts I might have read part of that and asked Diana to comment in the Plus Show. I can't remember, but i don't think i read that whole thing really interesting. I like that perspective and some of the AI stuff i'm not so sure about but time will tell and that is something we talked about in The Plus Show one thing i didn't have time to bring up and Diana might not even have a ton to say about is that there are several quotes in the book about Jacques Vallée studying Rosicrucianism and being sort of an unofficial Rosicrucian

1:08:46 Yet we have had several guests say that's not a real order and the material was crafted as a hoax or parody. And surely Jacques would know that, but those references in the book did stick out to me. Who knows maybe those previous guests were wrong on that? But so much good stuff in this one The Plus Show is just as full! We talked about Triggering a download trickster energy the idea that things like soda and caffeine and starbucks and coke are so well propagated through our world because there's a trickster or demon behind seeding that. To disrupt the very connection to this super intelligence that we're talking about i asked her about the idea that maybe free masons figured out how to open up hidden realms and we talked about the insights in perspectives of several other people in the book that we couldn't fit into the first hour

1:09:41 You know the drill. If you like what I do, just become a plus member and get twice as much show! I don't do ads for a lot of reasons but it makes a much better show when you don't and imagine that it just flows on for another extra hour where we really get to the weird stuff. You miss a lot when you consume your free first hours and move on but people don't listen to me. However if this one is the one to push you over the edge of curiosity The links are right there at the top of the show notes. Hit the top one to see the form pop up, get yourself a username and password and we send you the RSS feed. You can plug it right into all the same apps you use to listen to The Free Hour except for Spotify if you want to listen to Plus on Spotify it can be done just signup through the Patreon link that is also right there at the top of the show notes

1:10:36 And that said, when it comes to the ratings and comments from Plus members about the last episode with William Ramsey Order of the Nine Angles The Smiley Face Killers and Pop Culture Symbolism 4.7 again! That's about as high as it ever gets because there are always people who are like one star not my favorite but this was clearly a pretty popular show on top of the last one Jeff Kripal also I think had a 4.7 And most of the commenters on the website just said good job, but a lot of them did add extra context. More links more information including a Tim Dillon episode where you hear from a guy who seems like he was nearly a smiley face killer victim if your plus member and you want to go further with all that dive into the comments section yada yada yada but that is pretty much it

1:11:32 From me. Please let Diana know you enjoyed this if you follow her on any of the old social media sites, it is important for when she writes the next book and has to decide what shows to give her time too I already asked for more than most so she has to know it's worth it And then as for the meetup calendar, we got three for January so far. January 11th Flame International Restaurant in LA. January 13th The Trails Cafe also in LA and January 23rd Monday Night Brewing on a Tuesday two-for-one beers Higher Side Chats fans welcome in Nashville Tennessee

1:12:17 Go to highersidemeetups.com for the full details and to RSVP if you plan on attending any of those or just make your own local event and stop waiting, start participating but take care for all those who do support this venture through plus I really can't thank you enough it truly is a dream job i think we had a lot of great guests in 2023 I'm already really jazzed up for the ones i have set up in January. I hope you all have a good rest of the holidays and I hope you stick with me through the next year and beyond because it is going to be bumpy leading up to 2030, and I think the wisdom of a lot of our guests will only get more important as we go through these difficult years so I'm gonna keep trying to bring you the best

1:13:12 And if you haven't signed up for Plus yet, but you follow the show please consider it. You get a seven day free trial to start when you go back and listen to just A couple of the shows you liked and you hear The Second Hour It will click for you I try to jam pack these with information and you have to consider that even though it sounds complete you've only heard half Help me help you As for today, I've done my part. Your move contactee mystics invisible college members and high strangeness agents of the cosmic super intelligence your fucking move when you see weird lights outside of your door something sits on your chest when you sleep it might be a pattern you've been through before

1:14:08 Or you might have those screen memories Darling, wait till we get some proof It will make them see And baby I tried the camera right I'm not crazy How people can't get free from mysterious grace? It's getting just a bit out of hand

1:14:49 We really just want to get back on with our days Don't care about the hiberting plan So honey now, don't walk into the skinny arms No they came from the sky from out of the stars Place something on my beating heart Baby, this damn life is too bizarre I can tell when they're gone cause my memories fade But we know that it's not just a dream Cause they never put me back exactly the same way And the pain is as real as the scream Honey our goals might be the whole

1:16:00 The highest side chats is covered all and we're breaking free. We really just want to get back on with our days Don't care about the hybrid in plan But don't walk into their skinny arms No, they came from the sky from out of the stars Play something I'm a beating heart I'm shut up baby this damn

1:17:09 life is too bizarre so honey now don't walk into the skinny, oh no they came from the sky from out of the stars play something on my beating heart i'm shouting out

1:18:00 Baby, this damn life is too bizarre Honey I think we're on some kind of far Baby this damn life is too bizarre