THC 25: Nick Redfern | Government Interest In UFOs & The Paranormal

00:04 In the 1930s, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed a nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the Fireside Chats. His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times but we're far from 1930 and I deal with a different kind of fire For a new era of worldly frustration We offer a fresh conversation! Happy days are here again, Hireside Chatters and it would be damn hard to top my excitement for today's partner in dialogue.

00:39 Ufologist and paranormal researcher Nick Redfern has written 15 plus books on alternative subjects with titles like The NASA Conspiracies, Keep Out! Top Secret Places Governments Don't Want You To Know About and his most recent masterpiece in the best book I read all week The Pyramids & the Pentagon. The government's top secret pursuit of mystic relics ancient astronauts and lost civilizations Ladies and gentlemen the jury i present to you exhibit a nick redfern nick how the hell are ya? Hey Greg, I'm doing good thanks. First time I've ever been called Exhibit A! Yeah, I'm weird like that... That's alright. Hey you know iIm really psyched you're here one of my favorite things about your work is that you don't really speculate you educate because honestly not to name names but I've had a few guests recently that just

01:26 They just know we're not the only intelligent race on the planet, or they have a feeling Atlantis was the real place. But you actually dig up documents and research cases and don't sacrifice your credibility just to sex it up! I appreciate you saying that. My background is in journalism, regular journalism and I've always been of the case that just because Iím writing about Bigfoot or UFOs or Roswell or whatever doesnít mean your brain has to go out the window. still apply the same journalistic techniques and when you can uncover facts, tell people it's fact. When you've got something that an intriguing bit of data which is suggestive or something well tell them it�s just suggested but don't go in there with this belief system that this

02:15 you know, and it's cast in stone if we're not able to prove that it is cast in stone. Yeah I mean its great because a lot of times people get maybe too close to the work and they're like maybe a placebo effect takes hold and they're like well I did see his spirit! And it's like how funny is that rarely do people see him but the guy who researches them has now seen him so...I mean ya know..it is what it is Well, let's do the normal thing and dig into your newest book The Pyramids in the Pentagon. Would you mind kind of summarizing it up for the people? Yeah sure! Basically I'm sure everybody has heard about the whole ancient astronaut scenario, Eric von Daniken, Zacharias Sitchin and shows on TV now like Ancient Aliens, the idea that in the distant past we were visited by extraterrestrials and they were responsible for a lot

03:07 mythologies, folklore beliefs etc. of higher entities coming down from the sky and fiery chariots that sort of thing and dozens and dozens of books have been written on this subject You could make a good case of saying, ìWell what else could be written about it all?î But there was one other thing that I got little snippets of information from time to time which I never really did much with until I realized that if you do something with it, thereís a big story here and that was what government agencies know about the whole ancient astronaut angle. There are a lot of theorizing in books telling the story general of what people believe happened thousands of years ago.

03:48 but not from what the perspective of the pentagon new or believed all concluded about it also what i did was to start digging into this more and more than covering more dated ultimately just basically demonstrated that since at least the late forties u s british another cut countries in some cases have sort of dug very deeply into you know, ancient history with a view to addressing this whole angle of where we visited by somebody else at some point. It's that angle the fact that it's research that governments have done that lets you explore so many different areas within the book because they got their hands in everything really like they don't really shrug anything off the way they make it seem to the public that they do

04:33 I think governments are good at that. First, they've got a huge budget so giving 3 million to this think tank and 5 million to that one or whatever pretty much ensures all bases are going to be covered and you're quite right, they didn't really avoid anything but if it was the mystery of the past and they felt there were some games obtained from looking into it, whether it was the Dead Sea Scrolls, Noah's Ark, the Pyramids, the face on Mars. Atlantis, the Ark of the Covenant. They covered all bases of ancient relics and mysteries. It all seems a little less silly when you see all the documentation that they looked into it but... The book is full of phenomenal stories but one of my favorites I'd say and it was also pretty new to me was the Harry Cooper Roswell account Would you mind telling us about the details there? And do you believe his story?

05:30 Yes, sure I can answer all those questions for you. Basically the story that we can verify is that in 1947 which was the year of Roswell, the year The Flying Saucer was born The year the CIA was created is also the year which the Dead Sea Scrolls were found. It's a crazy and weird year, but it's also the year that Aleister Crowley died so there are lots of strange stuff going on in 1947. When the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, this coincided with the CIA being set up and they

06:07 The CIA actually set up an office in Damascus, Middle East in the American Embassy in the city of Damascus and on one particular day this guy came into the offices. Heís a sort of middle eastern character with these long flowing bedouin type robes acting very mysteriously. He got something he wanted to show to someone in a position of authority so the embassy called this one particular guy, Dan Miles Copeland who was a senior operative in the CIA at that time. He was also a father of Stuart Copeland, the drummer out there for police but it has nothing to do with his story but he was anyway and they called Copeland down and basically

06:56 This guy pulled out this roll and looked like an ancient parchment, very much like the Dead Sea Scrolls that we know today. This mysterious character wanted somebody to look at it and try and decipher or code break it if you like so being the CIA, Copeland said Iíve got somebody or people I can pass these on to them and they can have a look at it. This particular scroll It was sent to the CIA, Cochran photographed it and it just literally vanished into the archives or the decks of the CIA. Never resurfaced now you know the other Dead Sea Scrolls are all on public display so itís almost like thereís something unique about this one that when the CIA deciphered

07:56 They didn't want to give it up for some weird reason which opens possibilities as whether or not did he contain something really weird and significant. Regardless of that, the story gets even stranger in the 1980s and 1990s a number of UFO researchers one being William Steinman in the 80's who was looking into a crashed UFO case in northern New Mexico in the 40s and Timothy Cooper who was looking into the Roswell case 50 years later, in the 1990's when he got into it. Tim Cooperís dad served in US military and told Timothy Cooper about how he was

08:38 He supposedly printed off this lengthy report for the military on a crashed UFO incident in New Mexico in the summer of 1947. It wasn�t Roswell but it was reportedly another one in the state of New Mexico and according to Cooper's father who actually was able to get his military files and verify that he was at the base, he claimed to be when he said he printed these documents. He said that when the military got into the remains of this sort of wrecked UFO, they found an ancient parchment that sort of retrospectively – at a time they didnít realize but retrospectively sounded like or looked like one of the Dead Sea Scrolls and it was written in some sort

09:21 look like a very ancient language and it was reportedly taken to code breakers from the National Security Agency when that was set up in 1952 and everybody had hard time trying to decipher it. That's a weird story, you know? The idea of a crashed UFO coming down is sensational enough But then being found with like a Dead Sea Scroll inside it is even more sensational. Now, when you ask me do I believe the story? There's absolutely no doubt that the The first part of the story has been verified and backed up by other CIA people, the idea that Miles Copeland was a recipient of this particular scroll and that the CIA did acquire it. It vanished within the CIA and has never resurfaced since so we do know that an intelligence agency in the US known as the CIA has had deep interest in the Dead Sea Scrolls now

10:21 The next part of the story, you know about the military having an interest in another type of scroll that found in a saucer. I take it one or two ways... well actually there's three ways. You can either interpret this story literally, that a UFO came down and the scroll was found You can take the idea that a UFO did come down but the scroll story was added by people in government to try and discredit the researchers rather than actually add credibility to this story, just make it over-the-top where people would walk away from. Agencies are good at doing that or the third possibility of course

11:02 is that it's complete nonsense. My view and my experience is that when you get close to some sort of mystery, whether the government angle, you often do find people coming forward who try and push on to sensational stories. I think sometimes that is done to try and discredit the more credible angle But in this case, I'm not entirely sure that's all there is to it. I would say that was all there is to it if it wasn't for the fact we can prove that the CIA really did have an interest in the Dead Sea Skulls. That's a weird thing – it's not like their entire story can be disproved. In one part of it, they can be proved and of course this begs the bigger question

11:51 why on earth would the CIA be analyzing and even hiding afterwards the Dead Sea Scrolls? Even if they analyzed it, why didn't they just hand it over to the bigger collection which is now on public display for anybody and everybody to see. That sort of makes you wonder if there really was something to this story. Yeah that's a crazy thing to be inside a UFO I thought that was the Rosalind one but As far as Roswell goes, I've always loved that story. That and the Loch Ness Monster is kind of what got me when i was really young. There's so many Roswell theories... There's you know that they were genetic mutations and they were no all kinds of different every country has probably been Held responsible from one angle for the Roswell crash like as some of their secret technology But if you had to put your money on the story is you see it being most accurate How does the Roswell story go? We did they find bodies. Did they not I

12:48 yeah i think they found something and i can't body and i think you know that there's no way to weather balloon and the idea that it was a lot of it yet the ideal so that it is this mobile balloon but you have become that does not need disputes the government flying big big mo mogul balloons at the time but the idea with that in crash test dummies that doesn't hold water so i think he can only go in one or two directions. One is a literal UFO with alien bodies, or some sort of dark and dubious military experiments with human guinea pigs on board that went wrong and that was so controversial... You know one of the theories is could they have used Japanese prisoners-of-war? I mean this is one that I addressed in my books. Either it was a genuine UFO or like a dark and dubious experiment

13:42 that would create such a scandal, but it had to be hidden. But then again when you listen to the descriptions of the bodies they donít sound like regular people. Then again if you read them, theyíre not like the classic grays ñ these little spindly gray guys with big black eyes. Most books talk about being more human-like and about five feet tall so my view is that It was either a UFO or some bizarre military human experimentation and I donít think thereís any ground for anything else other than that. you know it's i've sort of like this analogy before it kind of like jack the ripper or who killed kennedy in at that date mister to start getting so old now everybody's dying off the government and nothing and it's right how do we take it to the next step you know what i mean it can't wait to resolve its uh... when everybody's dead and the government said well would look for the files sorry there's nothing go away you know shorter

14:49 I say short of it, but I just don't know how 10 years from now if Roswell isn't solved to the point where we can prove what happened. We might never know. No we may never know because I just don't know how we can go to that next step. Well hey let me ask you something a little more modern that being the u.s involvement in the middle east it seems a little national treasure but this is my favorite part of the book you see any reason to think that we may be there for something a little more serious than oil i mean and of course not defy terrorism well yeah i mean that they should one of the interesting things the idea that you know at least part of the the reason for the president's in like iraq for example uh... you know the baby stories about

15:34 you know sort of ancient priceless artifacts and sort of i guess like science and technology developed thousands of years ago by the ancients that might still be sort of hidden somewhere in iraq i mean there's several of these stories i mean uh... i talk in the book about the story of jim marz who'd been researching this so-called white gold as it's known which you know the speculation is it's a so called manner from heaven that could extend lifespans and rejuvenate cells. Todayís scientists are trying to crack the code to prevent aging, I donít mean some old lady having her face pulled back with Botox or whatever but literally slowing down the process of how the body

16:22 It decays over time. Itís an unfortunate thing but it does, if you could stop it and this is one of the fears with this sort of white gold because it ties in with Iraq. Could it be that the ancients were either given or developed some technology that would allow that to happen? the invasion of Baghdad occurred, one of the places that was heavily looted was the Baghdad Museum and there have been rumors for a long time again technological artifacts going back thousands

17:00 secretly held in the Baghdad Museum. What�s interesting is that when there were literally thousands of items looted from the museum, a substantial amount was never recovered and what was interesting is that many of those items actually taken from the basement of the museum and when a study was done it looked like to many people on the investigation that area had been deliberately targeted and doors had been unlocked so allow people to get in there specifically target certain areas, take certain items. Again this has led to the theory that maybe that was one of the reasons that it was

17:43 undercover of a war-torn area that these items were sort of shipped out and because all the battles going on and bombs going off, nobody noticed what was going on literally beneath their eyes so to speak. Yeah, and when you look at the other angle of the Stargate and the 2012 angle, the timing of it is interesting because the Zacharias Ditchens story kind of comes in line with this. But the idea that the Anunnaki will return in 2012 and that the technology they used to arrive here was actually in the Middle East and the U.S. there sort-of to take control of that – where does that story start?

18:27 Fragments of this have been circulating for a while, but one of the people who discussed this in the last few years was a guy named Michael Sala, UFO researcher. He dug deep into some sort of Stargate like in the Stargate movie and TV series where instead of traveling like vast distance from our sun to another sun by literally going from point A to point B and you know, turn on your thrusters and go in. But you could sort of I guess condense the journey by warping space and time so in other words you don't travel like a linear fashion, you actually distort it and arrive from point A to point B no time at all but that's the idea of the Stargate scenario and there have been these rumors about as you said some sort of ancient Anunnaki star gate

19:22 possibly in iraq or somewhere in the middle east and you know that they've been a flurry of attempts by military and governmental agencies to locate it uh... and understand the technology because again you know he said the theory is that we had a knock here coming back and could this be tied into december twenty twelve you know that they're gonna make it reappearance and you know you can look at it from several angles again you know either the stories true pretty big disinformation all it could be as i suspect that There are people in government who are just like us. They know these stories and they know the rumors, legends and everything else so they do what most of us canít do. They have the manpower and funding to actually go out there and see if thereís anything to it or not. I think that could be what happened here that they know all these stories.

20:14 an intelligence capital to be gained, they take the view that we canít afford not to look into it so they go out there. Not necessarily who knows where the truth begins and ends but by going out there, they ensure that theyíre going to do their best to find out if there is anything to it. I think thatís an important thing for us to remember is that governments donít always investigate stuff because They 100% believe it. They do it because they don't want to risk leaving any stone unturned, which is actually two very different scenarios. Right good point I mean and that... It seems a little far-fetched but at the same time those kind of missions they sort of mirror the supposed actions of the Nazis in terms of invading places to seek out ancient relics and stuff right?

21:03 You're quite right. It sounds bizarre until you pointed out earlier that one of the things I did in the book was to use the Freedom of Information Act quite extensively and you find that the CIA has files on Noah's Ark, we've got government files now showing agencies were interested in people We're talking about the pyramids built by levitation. When you look back historically, it's not so strange that somebody would be paying attention to ancient technologies in the Middle East today when 50 years ago they were looking at whether or not the pyramids of Egypt were built by levitation. There is actually not much difference really. It's pretty much the same project but ongoing.

21:48 that's a big theme in the book is that idea of the ancient levitation or the acoustic technology. It's funny because another project I have is a conspiracy themed clothing line called Conspirities and one of the first shirt designs I made was just that, it's three UFOs hovering over the pyramids with the blocks sort-of floating into place and it kind of goes right in line with that idea. Oh that sounds cool! In terms of the Nazis, something I've always wondered about the actual culture during World War II is if the ancient alien lineage motive was really out in the open and it's been edited out by calculated historians or were those ideas kept close to the chest among the leaders even then?

22:31 Well that's a good question. One of the things we do know for example about the Nazis, it wasn't just that they believed that if they sought out these ancient relics like the Ark of the Covenant which supposedly had all these bizarre powers etc., but if you help them win the war they actually felt the nazis thought that their lineage went back to like an ancient human race you know that they it wasn't just about a master race today in their eyes it was more the fact that they would be sending from this sort of races superman going back however long so we have a word they were taking the view that they're already an ancient rice and he was time for them to return by you know reopening all these

23:15 ancient aspects of their original culture. There was this idea that it wasn't just a master race or super race today in their mind, it was that they were just continuing on to where They left off and sort of devolved for a while and now it was time for them to come back again. A lot of people don't realize that they just thought Hitler was on the lookout for anything that would help him win the war but he actually did have this background where he felt he was fulfilling and bringing back the ancients which they were descended from. Well, and obviously you know about Project Paperclip for those who don't it's the program to bring Nazi scientists to work in the state black ops projects and avoid persecution or prosecution but have you heard any of the stories of Hitler escaping or the Nazis retreating into a camp in the Arctic?

24:11 Yeah, I mean with the book obviously you know sort of limited in the number of pages. Which is why with the Nazis I just focused on their involvement in the ancient stuff because it was relevant but yeah I mean the whole Nazi conspiracy thing goes much further and you've got the paperclip scientists coming over and a theory that at least some UFOs may have been developed in the late 40's in the US as an outgrowth advanced Nazi technology developed in the final stages of the war. We know a lot of rocket scientists were brought over, I mean Wernher von Braun who was one of the main brilliant German rocket scientists who built the V1 and 2 rockets that bombed

24:55 London, Britain. He became director of NASA! That's not a joke or rumor. Wernher von Braun who was a Nazi scientist in the Second World War became the director of NASA. And so that in itself is kind of bizarre but you've got the idea sort of a faction of Nazis hiding out one of the polls if you like to say the north pole. Interestingly enough, the FBI have declassified a whole file which runs into I forget the number pages but it's a huge file on people who claimed to have seen Hitler after the Second World War. They opened a file on all these letters that were coming in from people saying well he escaped here and he escaped there and they did lengthy extensive investigation and Iím not sure if itís online at their website or not

25:51 which is called the vault but you can get it from the FBI and they had a whole department that was looking into these stories about Hitler faking his own death and fleeing somewhere else. paranormal aspect uh... and i'm really curious to hear your thoughts on this when they have researched a lot of other paranormal stuff including stories of like entities that sort of feed on negative energy or at night the torture the human soul uh... and that that said it seems to me that there are essentially three levels in government bike and i'm simplifying just to kind get the point but the main ninety percent you just disregard anything paranormal alien and i think i hire order who

26:36 it's kind of involved in the occult research but really doesn't know what going on is the people that are at the subject a lot of stories near book uh... but then i think there's an even higher groupers secret society if you will that deeply involved and demonic and dark rituals and i hear these stories of child trafficking among the elite systematic ritual sexual abuse in these these weird cults and it just seems to me that the groups know something about how to harness deep emotional trauma. Do you see any parallels there or am I kind of stretching? I've never sort of really, you know, delved into that whole abuse angle at all but what i will say...I mean I wrote a book in 2010 called Final Events which was study of how a think tank type group in the government came to believe, you know, that the whole UFO phenomenon was like

27:25 demonic deception. That was their belief system, thatís an important thing to stress. It wasnít that they proved thatís what it was but itís what they came to believe it was. They felt like alien abductions were staged by this phenomenon to kind of create like mean if you like when in reality they were sort of deceiving us into accepting demons amongst us. You can find a lot of examples where the government has dabbled in their cult, for example One of the most famous occultists who did extensive work in the late 40s for the US military and government was Jack Parsons. Jack Parson set up the Aerojet Corporation which ultimately made solid rocket boosters for the space shuttle, and this is a guy who in his early rocket tests out at Pasadena

28:22 for the place called Devilís Gate Dam in Pasadena. Before each rocket launch, he would invoke the god Pan to ensure a successful flight and it was being funded by the military at this time and he was also a disciple of Aleister Crowley who had extensive links with both British and American intelligence Crowley and Parsons after Crowleys death, theyíre both engaged in trying to open portals and doorways to other realms of existence and letting these higher entities.

29:02 in nineteen seventeen with a tentative known as lam elayim right here google alistair crowley plus lam and you look at the picture of lamin looks just like the alien on the front cover with history bus communion uh... from the idea but everything else looks the same united public we are sick As I said, the important thing is in relation to your question, Parsons was heavily paid and funded by the military but he was having sort of occult masses and everything in downtown Los Angeles, etc. But the military didnít care. They recognized he was a brilliant scientist and let him do his thing but there are other examples as well. The CIA we know again through the Freedom of Information Act in 1952 actually opened this small project to determine the feasibility

30:02 of using wager boards to try and contact with the other side because i'll be the plan was to try and contact dead cia agents that have been used there soul despite on the russians you know you could bypassed a message for the wage aborts it dot at the kremlin uh... you know if that does not but that that's literally what they were researching and you know they did a lot of research also into um... Everybody knows about the things like the MKUltra, LSD mind control program but they were also the CIA initiated and sponsored trips to South America to find psychedelics, psychedelic plants etc.

30:44 you know tap into that and try to find out why people had mystical experiences you know when the when they were under the influence of this or that so you know they're looking into some very we didn't have to carry carriers yet you actually have uh... a little part of magic mushrooms in their most recent book tell us about that story because those those are hallucinations seem pretty wild What do you want me to tell you about magic mushrooms or the magic mushrooms in the book? This is sort of a central part of this story. If it was just a case of government agencies

31:25 Looking back into the history books and googling this or whatever, you could say they didnít really have much insight. They were just sort of surfing around the edges but when you find that they were dealing and looking at stories of reincarnation and people getting into altered states of mind to where there was a possibility that they would literally send in their soul or essence I think

32:07 rather than being hallucinations, people were seeing literal portals and doorways to other realms that you donít see in a ìnormalî state of mind. They were listening to people who are under the influence of this or that particularly and who were telling stories about seeing vast stones lifted into the air in Egypt by flying saucer type devices. They were digging into some very alternative areas, but what was more interesting is that clearly there are some people in government and this gets back to what you said about like a higher group. There are people in government who clearly realized

32:47 This was an important area of significance to look into. They knew for some reason there was a good reason for digging into this whole angle of psychedelics and portals being opened, possibly some military gain coming from all that. psychedelics and paranormal phenomenon and UFOs I don't know how or why but to me those dots kind of connect it's kinda hazy how but they all seem like parts of the same phenomena

33:25 There are cases for example where people have been under the influence of LSD. I quote one story in Final Events, where people had been under the influence of LSD and they both seen They�ve seen the same UFO. One of the important things about LSD is that what's equally as important as the strength of the dose is the scene and setting and mindset of a person, and tests have proved this that if you're in a bad setting or negative vibe, your experience will probably not be

34:06 a good trip. In that sense, itís not just the expectation that maybe if you think youíre going to see something, youíll see it but possibly if your mind is amenable when youíre in this altered state, open the fabric of reality to something else. You know, it's like DMT which occurs naturally in the brain well when people you know being given like I don't want to say overdoses but extra doses of DMT they started reported seeing images of these sort of little elf-like creatures coming through the veil if you like and some of these stories are so close to each other it's difficult to dismiss the idea that we're seeing something

34:53 that we donít normally see in regular situations, what we call reality. But more importantly these things seem to know when they see them, they know that that we're seeing them, you know. We've been rumbled if you like so... It is very weird and you mentioned earlier the face on Mars and that's one area that I just find it really hard to form an opinion on because as far as the face on Mars in the Cydonia pyramids because anything i find compelling NASA seems to have some high-res photo of some other angle where it looks like nothing If there were structures on Mars or the moon while we're at it, I have no doubt it would be covered up. But that doesn't necessarily mean there's something to cover up but you know what have you seen with that?

35:38 Yeah, you're right. I think the big problem with the face on Mars is not so much that it's there but it's the fact that the average person isn't able to go and look at it. We can't go there. That's a problem. It's kind of like something on the Earth like the pyramids – anybody can go there and analyze them etc., come to some form or conclusion. The problem is with the face on Mars we are strictly and solely limited a few photographs, some of which do appear to show a face. Others that kind of look just like a pommeled, rubble macer or whatever but the interesting thing is when you look at it from some angles in certain light it does look

36:23 Now the thing that a number of researchers who believe that it is a face have said is that the Egyptian pyramids may go back 10,000 years or whatever. Some people say well its official story like 3 to 5 thousand but maybe we can push it back ten to 15. A friend of mine Matt Tony who wrote a book called After The Martian Apocalypse and he uh... back theorize you know the martian artifacts could be half a million years old you know if that is the case you imagine what this thing from today's pyramids in egypt would look like a half-a-million years from now but probably wouldn't be that recognizable you know beyond the average shape and pop that looks kind of face like you know robin today it clearly is a face

37:09 And so what I find interesting is that from certain angles, the face on Mars does look Sphinx-like. And also not far away you do have structures that look pyramid like as well. So even if it's just a bizarre coincidence the very fact that you do have this Sphinx-like face and pyramid type structures all in the same area for me suggests we have to look into it One of the things I point out in the book, one of very weird stories is that there are a number people in the world of science fiction from the 50s particularly who had links and contacts within the intelligence community, the military, the CIA who actually wrote sci-fi stories and comic books.

37:55 with the theme of them was like faces and pyramids on Mars. This has led to speculation that maybe somebody in the government knew about the face on Mars decades ago long before NASA found out and may have actually even tried to subtly seed a few of these stories into the public domain to see what the reaction would be, but do it through the medium like entertainment with novels and comic books or whatever and just see what the response was. For example Jack Kirby, the famous comic book artist actually wrote a story called The Face on Mars in 1958 which is all about American astronauts going to Mars and finding this huge carved face that

38:38 stairs up from the surface of the planet. You couldnít get much closer, if you Google again Jack Kirby plus face on Mars, people have scanned in like the front cover or main page of the story and youíll see this huge face on Mars in a story titled ìThe Face On Marsî and Kirby has sort I think it's a very good question. that, you know there was weird stuff on Mars that sort of paralleled the things in Egypt so to speak. Well you can find that with all kinds of stuff I mean i've seen montages about 9-11 where they've got all this imagery that came out before 2001 and it's all eerie very eerie one of them is The Simpsons one of them is The Rugrats movie One of them some album cover

39:40 uh... an episode of the expired and it's weird because it's like it almost seems like somebody somewhere knows that there's a link between subliminal messages and uh... reality In one sense, you could argue it ties in with this whole issue about the CIA was sort of looking at the idea of psychedelic trips into past and possibly future. Maybe time isn't as we see it and maybe some of these imagery from

40:17 events that haven't happened yet is occurring because somebody is literally picking up on something that inevitably it's going to happen. They become kind of like a comic book artist, where do they get their inspiration from? Maybe they really are getting it from the future and maybe Jack Kirby's mindset tapped into the fact that 20 years later NASA was going to take these photographs with this weird looking face. I've heard theories about there being There being time portals that we just don't know much about, maybe the Bermuda Triangle is one. Maybe the Loch Ness Monster is something where a portal opens up and the energy of an actual dinosaur comes through? And maybe that's what UFOs are as like future craft...

41:01 It's coming through for a second. Weird! Well, yeah I mean you know one of my other big interests is cryptozoology and the study of unknown animals. It's like with Bigfoot some researchers will tell you that Bigfoot is just an unidentified ape that science hasn't found but the more you dig into it clearly not because way beyond that. You have reports of Bigfoot appearing and vanishing in the blink of an eye cameras jamming you know all sorts of just strange stuff associated with it and these things come and go we never catch them anything almost like they sort of fleeting amounts about reality or possibly at time frame you know that the tallest what they are on the equivalent to what the new york subway of the london underground you know i jump off a station station in a way that we don't understand you know but it's more like a dimension by dimension possible people were afraid of the idea is that

41:55 uh... a secret shadow government knows about our origins and aliens in keeping from the dark to control us but apart of me takes comfort in thinking well at least somebody can explain all this shit even if they want to get well i think i think you've got what it was like different levels you know that there's certainly some agencies in government who don't know if you tell me you cut the ufo subject where project blue book with pretty much look like a public relations exercise you know they didn't really find much or know much at all and certainly in the last 10 years or so, it really was just a couple of guys in an office. There's no field work or anything but then you have agencies higher up than them like the CIA and NSA doing research but then you have these other rumors that what's going on with Area 51 etc., that kind of thing. So I think thatís not just the way secrets are kept by

42:47 Not everybody knows because the less people know, the chance of a secret leaking out. I think it's also connected with powerful ancient people and money and things like that, these big business and big money families who are tied in with government intelligence agencies etc. Yeah, I don't personally think the ones who are really in the know are just like Pentagon generals. I think it's more like a cabal of big money old families powerful backgrounds and aristocracy that sort of thing. Right. Simply put if you had to speculate and try to come up with one

43:35 cohesive worldview out of all your research that you've done explaining flying saucers and the mothman and jinn, everything. What would it look like? Are these independent phenomena in your mind or is there a unifying theory? No I think there's a unifying theory. I'm not convinced at all that the UFO phenomenon is extraterrestrial in the sense that its literally aliens coming from planet A to planet Earth What I think is that the phenomenon is real but you can find clear parallels throughout history where things have been interpreted as demons, goblins, jinn and today's aliens.

44:13 It all manifests in the same way. It's also do with like manifestation in people's bedrooms, like an interest in human reproduction and babies and these sort of predatory entities that kidnap us time distortions And I think the kind of what I call the alien meme is sort of The modern-day equivalence of a demon meme or the goblin meme or whatever mean you know something's been interacting with us and manipulating us for as long as we've been around and I think the current incarnation is the one that's used because we accept the idea that aliens could be out there in the same way that 2,000-3,000 years ago. There was a far bigger belief in like demons and demonic entities, far bigger than today and I think the phenomenon to whatever it seems to have some sort of

45:06 controlling or manipulation factor involved in us. disinformation people who spread stories suggesting there's nothing to this, others spread stories suggesting it is alien. You don't know and I think the whole point is that there are people in government who do know but part of their task is to confuse us by pummelling us with so many contradictory angles that they

45:43 It keeps us busy looking for all those, while maybe the real secret they don't want us to get hold of stays buried if you like. Well hey Nick let me hit you with a few questions from the internet because we're kind of getting down to the last 10 minutes or so but do you think there are physics that explain UFO movement that are classified to the public? Yes, I think there's no doubt in my mind the more our technology advances the more and more difficult it is going to be to differentiate between our UFOs and somebody else's UFOs. You look at the whole black triangle phenomenon of the last few decades you know that there are cases where you can suggest some of these are extraterrestrial and some of them could be highly advanced military craft

46:29 But if some of them are highly advanced military craft, to have some sort of vehicle that can go the size of a 747 that can go from standing still to literally vanishing in an instant with no apparent acceleration effects on the crew. I'm using it as an example because there's a famous British case investigated by the Ministry Defense in 1993 where actually Royal Air Force I�m going to give you a little bit of background on the world of technology.

47:10 In an instant, that would kill the crew with the G-forces. I think there's clearly evidence of advanced technologies that go far beyond mainstream physics but the problem is again who has access to it and to what extent or not they'll share it with anybody else? Another good one I got here that I liked was, have you ever experienced non-ordinary life forms in shamanic states of consciousness or any other means? I've had a few weird experiences. One of the big interests of mine is Tulpas, which are basically like thought forms where you concentrate on an image in the human mind and try to go into a trans-like meditative state and try and conjure up over a period of time whatever image like for example when I tried once

48:04 like a black dog with fiery red eyes. Then actually coming home late one night, I saw what looked just like that but it looked like it was born out of the shadows from the streetlights and the poles etc., but you imagine the shadows would be manipulated by something to come to life for a brief instant and make it look like this spectral big black dog. It was almost too coincidental, and Topaz is a particular fascination of mine the idea that if you concentrate on something in your mind, you can literally kind of give birth to like a quasi-humanity.

48:47 I think to instill fear, which he then feeds on like a psychic vampire to keep itself alive if you like. So it's kind of like giving birth to a mind monster or something. Right! Yeah maybe that has something to do with why Hollywood has put out the idea of The Greys? Maybe they know something like that and they're pushing it out. Maybe that also explains pretty much

49:23 all crypted, you know? Well it could. I mean we all think there's weird stuff in the woods if enough people believe there are monsters in the woods maybe that actually brings them to life because so many people intensely believe they're out there almost like another version of the placebo effect yeah exactly crazy I guess another one. I got here, I think I already we already kind of covered I kind of the answer to but do you think there are other frequencies beings can exist on and aren't like would you say ghosts or multi-dimensional beings rather than just spirits I mean certainly things like quantum physics today, they're allowing for the existence of extra dimensions or multi-dimensions and I think the best way to describe it for me is you drive in your car listening to the radio. You don't like a song that's playing so you flip to another channel and then other one and then other one where all these channels are playing at the same time but you can only be on any given moment and I think that's the same

50:21 Some of these entities, if not all of them are sort of like dimension hopping things. That makes more sense to me than just flitting back and forth from some far away planet or whatever and it could explain why all these things were elusive – ghosts, Bigfoots, lake monsters, werewolves, aliens All these sort of things that exist in our folklore mythology for thousands of years come and go but they're always elusive to us. I think that is the case and my view on life after death, the question about ghosts, Iím not a believer in the rigid

51:02 Thereís a good chance that some essence survives bodily death. and it transcends to one of these multi-dimensions or it can serve all of them because itís not in like physical form. Maybe they manifest in our dimension from time to time and we see them again, I think life after death possibly

51:39 will be explainable by the science of something surviving and accessing other multi-dimensions that maybe the ancients knew about these multi dimensions and kind of put their spin on them and classed them as hell or the underworld, but it was just another realm of existence. Alright, so it's getting to be that time. Simply hearing your journalistic approach to this stuff is very refreshing for me because I'm not calling anybody a liar but like I said in the beginning I've had guests that seem like they're astral projected on Sunday and channeling entities on Monday you know what I am saying?

52:17 and i just think man let me follow you around the camera for one week you know uh... well you know i think we've got to remain balanced in you know try not select belief overtakers but you know i think most people who delve into this what may you know if you do have occasional weird flashes of strange stuff going on but you know we gotta try and keep it I'm not going to be able to balance and determine what happened and hope it was this or that. You've been a real prince, tell people how they can get your books? People can get my books from Amazon Barnes & Noble. They contact me at nickredfern14.blogspot.com or just type Nick Redfern into Facebook.

53:03 later this year which is called the world's weirdest places, which is basically a study of 25 sort of like window portal type areas where they've just been hotspots for whole range of weird activity. You got the Bermuda Triangle in there? The Bermuda Triangle place in Texas called the Big Thicket where there has been big foot UFO sightings and ghost lights so in other words if it has been sort of big foot UFOs ghosts all in one area, you know. I've sort of focused on those where it's been a hot spot for just the whole range of weird stuff. Oh nice! That's awesome. I'm definitely going to want to read that book hopefully we can come back after that and talk about it Yes sure, I'll make sure the publisher sends you copies Greg. Nice thanks so much well I mean appreciate again and enjoy your day. You too Greg thanks a lot Thanks Nick

53:57 There you have it people, what a great guest. Get that book! I read it in two sittings and its fucking awesome You can get my new shirt at conspirites dot net Check out the conspirites page on facebook It's run by my good friend Kyle who keeps it constantly updated with great conspiracy pictures and news and shit Its super good and im very thankful pimp Here is a sick track by my man Ralph Buckley to play us out titled In The Stars Ill see ya when I see ya Archimedes, he was overweight Type 1 diabetes showed me a map of the stars in the Pleiades God I wish you'd been You'd be walking on air like the level and the square. God I wish you'd been When I came across Julius Caesar He accused me non-believer that it had himself

55:39 An epileptic seizure You'd have been astounded As the Senate of The seven-headed Then Caesar was dissed And we howled at the moon We watched the comet The trail of blood you vomit Don't you worry man, cause I am on it Like cruelty on like Jesus ate grass Suspended magically in a star

57:02 In the star, in the star, yeah. In the star, oh in the stars. Next to Mercury. In the star, in the star, Oh in the star-stars like you! In the star, in the star, Just like you, just like you. It's like... In the star, in the star, In the star-stars next to Mercury

58:52 He's in the stars