John le Bon | The Hoax Hierarchy, The History Conspiracy, & The Wireframe Mesh

01:29 Where would we be without THC? We know the lying to us just don't know to what degree. Where would we be without THC, the highest side chateau? Great Carl Wood and Company Alright Hiresight Chatters, when we dig into the details of many subjects that are generally taken for granted we find a great deal of manipulation, half-truths and faulty premises in which entire fields are sometimes based. And this goes for an increasingly large chunk of history and science

02:15 Materialism, Darwinism, the Apollo moon missions, Columbus discovering America, mass shootings 9-11, the cover up of exotic technology and alternative fuel sources genuine medicine historic timelines and maybe even some major elements of our earthly system itself. Everybody draws their lines differently but these are just some of the examples we've examined in the past that actually encompass huge portions of popular worldviews and to see through even just a few of them leads one to reflect on not only what else we take for granted that could possibly be concocted by the capstone cabal, but just how powerful and all-encompassing are the nefarious few. What kind of world am I in? Are we as blissfully ignorant of our true situation as the cattle grazing on the farm

03:02 Well, when the big club goes back further than we can trace our own family lines and we're forced to go through the brainwashing education system that has been cooked up by those very same untrustworthy tyrants... Good luck getting it all worked out. As the theme song says, we know they're lying to us. We just don't know to what degree. Well today were blowing the barn doors right off the hinges and torching every sacred cow left inside because today's guest John Le Bon pushes the needle firmly into the red as he tackles some of what seem to be the most controversial and tightly held so-called truths out there John is a self-described real skeptic from Australia just asking questions about what we take for granted. He runs johnlebonn.com as well as a popular YouTube channel and I think this is going to be a pretty wild ride the controversial question asker, the full spectrum skeptic and conspiratorial thunder from down under JLB welcome to The Higher Side

03:58 What a fantastic introduction. Thank you very much, Greg for having me and yeah let's see where this goes I do cover a lot of topics on my website and on my YouTube channel so This could go in any direction, but I've been looking forward to it all week. So thank you very much for having me on the show." Yeah man! You got it! I'm really looking forward to it too. We kind of got hooked up as I was digging more into what we could call the history hoax and alternative timelines and just looking at how much of that could have been fabricated. And as i got your site i found that you get into quite a few other areas that maybe i'm not so into and that's okay but probably speaking i think we share a lot in common people should re examine everything we take for granted we shouldn't build our world views on premises that are tied to deceptive organizations

04:48 And really, before people defend something they hold dear they should know more about where it really comes from. And oftentimes things are just beliefs instilled from the school system and reinforced by Hollywood but I guess before we dive into the history hoax which i think is the overarching thing here...I thought a good way to start would be for the unfamiliar listeners to maybe get a feel for your overall perspective by walking us up your hoax hierarchy a bit if you'd be all right with it Yeah, let's talk about the hoax hierarchy. This is something that seems to draw a lot of people to the YouTube channel and to the website. Basically what I did was a couple of years ago, I sat down and thought if I was to go through the different things that I think are hoaxes or there may be some deception involved

05:36 are some of them maybe more significant than others. And so I started drawing up a schematic from what I called the baby hoaxes right through to the granddaddy hoax, and the way that it worked out was it kind of was easiest to visualize as a triangle. So down at the bottom I've got a bunch of major media events that I believe are hoaxers and I'm not sure how much your audience likes to discuss these things, but there are events such as say Sandy Hook or the Boston bombings which if you look at some of the photo or video evidence from the events they're highly suspicious. And that was actually how I got into conspiracy culture maybe four or five years ago

06:22 But subsequent to that, I've learned that these major media events as significant as they are. They're actually not as significant as perhaps some of the other deceptions that I've learned about and so what I did was I just drew up this schematic and I called it The Hoax Hierarchy and my idea wasn't to convince people that what I think are the big hoaxes more important than what I think are less important hoaxes. It's more of a way to try to conceptualize What effect does some of these deceptions have on our minds and on our lifestyles? And so I'm happy to talk with you today about any of the hoaxes, on that hoax hierarchy. And if you're interested to explain to you why I think some of those things are hoaxes because a lot of them they are controversial. To some people, some of the things that I'm saying are hoaxes they're going to find that aggravating for me to sit here and say that for example history parts of it may be a hoax

07:21 I do understand that that's going to come across as a little bit disconcerting to people, but hopefully they can give us a chance here today Greg and I can explain why every single one of those items on that hoax hierarchy is in my opinion, a hoax. For sure man and by the nature of it... I think most people would be on board with the bottom and as we go up, we would probably lose some people along the way. That's just the nature of these types of rabbit holes but we've been doing this a long time and i think most people consider things like 9-11 or the Boston bombing Sandy Hook Aurora

07:59 the whole Bin Laden thing, the Apollo missions. A lot of the things you have in the baby toddler and kiddie levels I'm pretty sure we've digested enough there to be on board with that and if we were to get to maybe those middle levels...I mean i don't even want to put out a specific thing I guess what when do you get to those teeny and kitty levels? What do you think are kind of the most polarizing things that you think you can make the best case for All right then, so let's talk about some of those teeny hoaxes. But before we do just to make sure that people are on board with this say the baby hoax level I've got Boston bombings and Sandy Hook and these kinds of things And you might remember that a couple of years ago there was the ISIS beheading serial show on TV So what they were doing on the news was they were saying that Isis this boogeyman terrorist group

08:51 had captured these captives and they were going to behead them. And they even had each beheadee call out the next person who was going to be beheaded." So it was like a TV serial, I'm not sure if you remember this but it was to me clearly almost like a comical fictional boogeyman TV show but it wasn't portrayed as a fictional show, it was portrayed as real And so I've got that down there at the baby hoax level as well. So, I think that some of what we're showing on the news it is clearly fabricated including a lot of what we're told about the terrorists and the boogeyman and that kind of thing. Then up from the baby hoax level, I've got the toddler hoaxes and those are Osama Bin Laden and the Apollo missions. Already here we might lose some people. Look at Osama bin Laden

09:44 Regardless of what people think about what happened on 9-11, to me Osama bin Laden is a fictional boogeyman. If you look at the footage of him there's plenty of YouTube videos that people have recorded from CNN or from any news agency and they've reuploaded them into YouTube so we can see what was being shown about Osama bin Laden in the 1990s and 2000s And I look at this footage and he too comes across as a fictional boogeyman. He comes across as the kind of character who would be in like a 1950s or 1960s escapade where the protagonist has to take down the boogey man, that's how Osama Bin Laden is shown to me. So I tried to look further into the Osama bin Laden story

10:30 And I'm not convinced that this person was a real person. I think Osama bin Laden, regardless of what we think of 9-11... Osama bin Laden strikes me as he may have been a fictional boogeyman Greg and I know that will come across as controversial but if we look at some of the texts that have been given to the masses that I think might be what you might call truth in plain sight, we know that say in 1984 by George Orwell Goldstein is a fictional boogeyman and he's put on the telescreen and the masses are welcomed to have their two minutes of hate. You know, everybody hates Goldstein. They hate the boogeyman." Well isn't that what Osama bin Laden was for us? He was the boogeyman on TV who we were encouraged to project our hatred onto but we only ever see him on the telescreen

11:23 Our entire relationship with Osama Bin Laden is via the mainstream media. None of us have ever met him, none of us will ever meet him we're told now that he's dead He is purely a representation on our television screens and in our newspapers And then you've got the Apollo missions, which I would hope Greg, I'm hoping that most of your listeners are familiar with the fact. The obvious fact that was an entirely fabricated event as well? I think so. Nobody went to the moon 1969 through 1972 and the footage we were showing people playing golf on the moon and driving dune buggies and even speaking with a president on the phone

12:04 Again, to me this isn't just that we've been deceived but the deception is comical. It's almost like a comic book style load of nonsense to me so if we just stop at the toddler level there Greg would you say that most of your listeners would agree with At least the Apollo missions and hopefully they're some have been Latin element as well or at least be open-minded to the possibility That it wasn't that I summer bin Laden was framed He was actually created for the purpose of framing So far would you say that this isn't too controversial just yet? Not at all. I think people are pretty on board, at least open to the possibility on some of these things for example You move up a level you got 9-11 no planes We don't need to spend a ton of time on this but i think that what's relevant is that it was a fabricated event It was a false flag The buildings were taken down I think the buildings were built to be taken down as part of a ritual later and that's a big thing

13:01 I think sometimes the people who are woke so to speak and devolving their arguments into what was it nano thermite was that a mini new were there planes there wasn't directed energy weapon, you know i have the place that i put my bed but i think what's relevant is that its not as projected and we've been lied to by other people that. Are our so-called protectors i mean After that, I really don't care what a person thinks necessarily. I'm just not hung up on that as long as they're on board with the fact that it was a fabrication because to me, that's really the thing that is hardest to accept but perhaps not. But take us up the pyramid and give us some of the cliff notes up until our main topic. I am so glad you say that, that you think that towers were built to be brought down

13:52 Because when I first heard that theory put forward, I thought how could that possibly be? Why would they do such a thing? Why would they build these gigantic towers two of them in the middle of New York and and bring them down on TV. Why would they do such a thing? Whereas now it's quite obvious to me that those towers were in fact built to be brought down as part of the big ritual, as you describe it so I'm glad we're on the same page on that one So if we move up to the teeny hoax level...I've got five things listed there and I would ask the listeners to at least hear us out before they get

14:28 too frustrated by what I have to say, let's just go through them and see if maybe there is some good reason to think that maybe we've been deceived about some of these things. On the teeny hoax level off got dinosaurs atoms, war, evolution and heliocentrism. And I am suggesting that each of those five things we may have been deceived about. So you choose one of those five Greg, you tell me which of those five do you think your listeners would be most interested to hear more about and let's go from there! And this is the kind of middle of the pyramid folks don't forget that

15:07 I think evolution people would be pretty on board with there's major deceptions there we've covered helio centrism i think ad nauseam, i'm kind of interested in why you put war on their. Okay. So you and I, we're roughly the same age. We're both in our thirties right? So we've been raised to believe that about a hundred years ago there was a gigantic world war where millions of people died and then a couple of decades after that, it was another world war where millions of people died. Millions of innocent people died and that's what happened. You know it was this horrible calamity

15:46 Now, I'm not saying that those events didn't happen. But what I am saying is that one day I decided to look into well what is the evidence that all of these people died? We're given these figures, these death counts of tens of millions of people and maybe tens of millions of people did die. I'm not sure. It could be possible But when I started looking into the evidence, what I found was that it was largely based on secondhand accounts. It was largely based on aggregate numbers that were given by official outlets and in terms of sort of empirical evidence for these deaths there's really not much that the average person can see to verify the claims that are being made

16:26 There are grave sites in various parts of Europe where you can still go and see, you know, where people have been buried as a result of dying in the war and what have you. So it seems to me that though people did die there was a major event but in terms of the numbers that we're given, we're given numbers of millions and millions and millions of people all around the world dying in this major calamity and I wonder how much of that is legitimate? And if we fast forward through to today, people my age and people your age. Well we've been raised two generations or more after World War II so unless we have a strong faith in history We don't really have much reason to take anything that were told on face value It's either you have faith in what you're told

17:16 or you don't. I no longer have faith in what I'm told, so I've got the war hoax there not because I'm saying that nothing has ever happened or nothing bad has ever happened but once I started looking into it, I saw that there's not as much evidence for some of these claims as I thought there was and then if we look at more recent wars such as the Gulf War and what's been happening in the Middle East I find a lot of that to be very dubious as well, and I can give you some examples. Sure If you look at the bombing of Baghdad there's still footage on YouTube to this day You can see the footage that somebody has uploaded from the official news broadcasts of time I would encourage all your listeners just one day look up bombing in Baghdad Watch it for yourself And just see if you notice anything about the footage Because when i watch that footage I think to myself

18:08 This does look, again, comical. This doesn't look like a real bombing at all! This kind of looks like a pyrotechnics display... It almost looks like a fireworks display that's being presented to us and we're just supposed to accept that this is a real war and a real bombing Now, if people still believe that Saddam Hussein was truly an enemy of the United States I can completely understand why they would think that this was a real bombing. Oh the Americans went into Iraq and they were bombing Saddam Hussein because they wanted to take him out? I can understand why people would believe that narrative – I used to believe in that narrative but as you progress through thinking about some of these topics and the process that I call deprogramming

18:52 You start to question, well hold on the people who run the show. Do they really have enemies? Was Saddam Hussein really against the American establishment or was he a puppet dictator who was put there because if he was a puppet dictator then why would the US have any reason to bomb him to try and take him out wouldn't he be in on the whole thing And then people try to tell me, oh no Iraq really was against the Americans. They were really at war with each other. Iraq was a separatist state and they wanted to start selling their oil in a different currency. They wanted to fight the petrodollar and again I used to believe all of that until I tried to look for actual evidence that this was the case and I couldn't find any. A country like Iraq if you just look on it on a map

19:41 It's a fictional country from the outset. It was created after World War II, that's why they have these straight lines as their borders. It was created after the breakup of the Ottoman Empire and the Ottoman Empire was broken up we're told by the establishment so how could the establishment create countries like Iraq and then lose control of them? It doesn't make sense to me So, if this is the first time that someone's heard someone suggest these kinds of things I completely understand Greg why they sound too out there. It must sound to people like I'm almost making this up for the sake of being like a shock jock or something but all I'm trying encourage people to do is think about why we believe what we're told? Take for instance World War One

20:26 Here in Australia, we as children were encouraged once a year to buy these little red poppies and to wear them and have this minute of silence on Remembrance Day for all these people who've died. So it was little children who are... Children are very empathic and it's easy for their emotions to be manipulated Well, these little children who've done nothing wrong to anyone in a ritual once per year they're encouraged to wear these little red poppies and for a minute stand in silence and remember all of these dead people they have never met. Now if you go to school for say 12 years then that means on at least twelve occasions you had to stand there in silence with all of the people around you You have to be solemn

21:15 Remember the deaths of people you've never met. And I'm suggesting to you, Greg and I'm suggesting to all of your listeners maybe that kind of conditioning on us during school has a far more profound effect than we realize and maybe that's why when someone comes along and says yeah but what's the evidence? That millions of people died We have a natural aversion to what they're saying because we've had all these conditioning All this emotional manipulation while growing up We're so convinced there must have been these millions of people dead because we've already mourned for them. But in terms of actual evidence, no, we were never given any other than second and third hand accounts from the very authorities and establishment that at other times we say that we challenge them when we question them but on these kinds of topics, we won't even open our minds to the possibility that maybe we have been deceived."

22:10 Well, I think you make some good points man and I chose war out of that category just because I felt like I knew more or less what you would say. About dinosaurs or atomic weapons or evolution or heliocentrism just cuz those are kind of more defined arguments and war is kind of a big thing also most of history is based on war and that's the overarching topic. And I don't want to be too argumentative that's not my style I do genuinely respect your thought process call it skepticism or the trivia or personal application of it What did you fall to hoax on anything that you can't personally prove just seems too rigid or simplistic to me because there will be some things you can't prove that are conventional ideas i mean. It's kind of ironic but you realize there is a lot of people using your same type of logic to doubt the existence of australia itself right now it's very interesting you say that because

23:07 In the preparation for this call, I went back and listened to some of your more recent podcasts. And sure. I saw that when you were chatting with Gordon White – and that was a good call by the way, enjoyed that – You did mention that you were a little bit frustrated by conspiracy culture because lately people have been saying that the earth is flat or that Australia is a hoax. And I hadn't actually heard the Australia hoax one. That one's interesting. Obviously, I live here in Australia so Maybe I'm involved in some grand conspiracy to deceive the world about Australia, but...I think it's a real place. I'm here right now so I don't believe in the Australia hoax and as for Flat Earth, I can understand people's frustration with that as well because

23:49 I have released 50 videos. In the space of a couple of years, I released no less than 50 different YouTube videos debunking and critiquing the flat earth so-called theory and it's not really a theory. It's more of a conjecture or a fantasy that a lot of these people have that the earth is flat Unfortunately for me, a lot of people assumed that I was a flat earther because I used to host the show called The Ball Earth Skeptic Roundtable. This was back in 2015 back when Flat Earth was just starting to become a thing on YouTube so I interviewed some of the biggest names in Flat Earth. I interviewed Mark Sargent, I interviewed Eric Dubay, Jeronism, WakeyWakey

24:38 A lot of the big names then, and some of them are still big names today. I interviewed them and what happened was that because I would describe myself as a baller skeptic –and that was the name of the show– and I was interviewing all these leading flat earthers, a lot of people assumed that I too was a flat earther. However what I was doing was asking some of this guys questions about basic problems that I see with the Flat Earth belief system such as There are two pole stars, okay? There's a pole star in the north and there is a pole star here in the south. How can the flat earth belief system account for that or southern flights you can fly from South Africa to Australia In the space of about nine hours And I know that because I did that back in 2010 on the way home from the soccer world cup So I would bring these problems up with these leading flood earthers

25:33 And they would either try to avoid answering the question or they would outright deny what I was presenting as my evidence. So in the case of the Southern flights, one of our guests live on the air we used to broadcast live, I brought up this problem of the Southern hemisphere flights and he said to me that I can't have taken that flight because it doesn't exist and I said well with the greatest respect I think the flight does exist because I've taken a flight And he said, well you must be mistaken. So then I went and got my itinerary which I had saved from that trip. I went and got it from my little collection of things from the past. I came back, I sat down at the microphone this was all live on there and I said here's my itinerary. I could be making this up but let me tell you what I remember happening and what I've got documentation to show happened. And still he didn't want to accept it

26:27 Now, I would have thought that because I was challenging some of these flat earthers in their claims that people would be able to see that I was not a flat earther. And yet to this day, I still have people trying to say that I promoted flat earth or that I am a flat earther even though that's the complete opposite of what I was saying so I can completely understand your frustration with this flat-earthing thing that has taken over conspiracy culture. At the same time, though I think if we try to say that anyone who questions things like war or dinosaurs or even heliocentrism itself. If we say that any of those people who question these things are falling into the same trap as flat earthers then that seems to me to be almost like a guilt by association or throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I think if you do skepticism properly, if you have a proper methodological approach to the matter

27:24 Well, you won't arrive at flat earth because the evidence goes against it. But you need to be willing to look at the evidence and you need to be willing to do the research." And so it was only through doing the research that I came to my current position which is that the heliocentric model that we're given today...I do think it is fanciful but that doesn't mean that I accept flat earth and I consider myself to be one of the leading flat-earth skeptics in the world today So that's where I'm at with all of this, Greg. I am a sceptical person and take the time to look at the official stories for some of these things and I'm not rejecting them out-of-hand so if i say war hoax...I'm not saying that all war is a hoax and you could say maybe I shouldn't use the word hoax then it's too strong a word but I completely understand

28:11 But at the same time, we live in a world where people are convinced of the most ridiculous things because of their conditioning through school. So to counteract that what do we say? Do we say I'm a war questioner Or I'm a war skeptic. Right, think war might be a deception." Well just using terms like war hoax it just cuts right through that and says right, I am willing to say that I think we've been deceived about war right from the get-go if people don't like the use of the word hoax I understand that hopefully they can understand why I do that War Hoax Evolution Hoax Heliocentrism Hoax It cuts right to the chase and it says look I'm willing to put my cards on the table here

28:49 I no longer believe what i used to believe and the reason for this is because, I've taken the time to look into the official story and I do not find it convincing. And that's fair to say. And I'm with you on the conventional model, there are a lot of things that don't add up when you start to pick at it so we're probably on the same page there and i'm glad you brought up that show with Gordon White because... ...I've gotten a lot of feedback from all sides of the spectrum on how people feel about that and a lot of pushback and I think maybe some of the points I made them casually and maybe made them too strong but

29:28 i think people misinterpreted what i was saying to a point which is really that. When i grew up in this culture it was about trying to improve my own life about avoiding debt traps and achieving economic fairness or escaping the cog in the wheel lifestyle finding healthier options and creating solutions away from the weaponized food and water and now cell phones that we have to deal with you know things i can help us navigate to a better reality even if it's just in our small circle, add i'm not sure these other topics like atomic weapons or dinosaurs. Or the flooded i'm not sure they do that and i'm not saying questioning has no merit of course i would never say that but

30:14 I just think it should be maybe measured and maybe it's got a little bit off the rails and maybe people are obsessing over things they can't control. Add the expense of their own life and their own health and making themselves a better person and its not that all time is spent wisely either so it's not even fair to say you know you should spend your time more wisely because of course, we have a lot of time and isn't all spent wisely so thats limited Use to bring up but that's kind of where I was coming from on a lot of that stuff Gregger I completely understand what you're saying and I can relate to it and I can empathize with it And your corrects a lot of people whether it is flat earth or it is pizza gates Or any of these sorts of things? A lot of people do let it take over. Oh

31:04 maybe not their lives, but their interest in the alternative. And so when I got into all of this, I was the same as you. I got into this thinking well, I've been deceived about things what else have I been deceived about? and there was a reason I wanted to do this because I wanted to improve my life if I have been deceived about something I want to know what else I've been deceived about and hopefully improve my life as a result. So in the last couple of years for example I've improved my diet significantly because I realized, I had been deceived about nutrition and health. Right! And I've improved my exercise regime because I had been deceived about the ideal exercise regime so now I sit here at the age of 31 and I'm in significantly better shape and significantly better health and better strength and fitness and flexibility than

31:52 than I was five or six years ago when I was in my mid-20's. And that is not because I was a couch potato in my mid 20's, I used to exercise then and thought I was being healthy back then but I had been deceived and so by being willing to reconsider what I thought I have been able to make positive changes in my life. And so, I can completely empathize with people who say that this flat earth thing or the QAnon thing or the pizza gate thing it is distracting people because yeah how do these things improve your life if you decide that the earth is flat for argument's sake

32:28 putting aside whether or not you're correct about that, and of course I say that flat Earths are incorrect. But let's just say they were correct for argument sake well then what? How does it improve your life to know that the Earth is flat in and of itself I don't see how that does benefit you other than it allows you now to feel as though, you've got all of these friends. And so what I noticed when I was studying the flat earth phenomenon through 2015 2016 2017 a lot of people they do come to identify with the conspiracy or with the alternative theories that they have adopted

33:07 And now because of Google Hangouts and how easy it is to communicate with people all around the world, they form their own online enclaves. I don't want to use the word like a cult but it almost becomes people find this new group identity and then anyone who challenges that they see those people as like an outsider and a blasphemer And so in all the time that I've been doing this, and I cover so many different topics and a lot of my perspectives are controversial. In all of my time doing this there's only been two occasions where myself or a family member or a friend has been Facebook stalked and had their personal details shared by somebody who was angry at me for my work

33:54 And on both occasions, it was flat earthers who did that. A flat earther Facebook stalked a family member of mine and they shared their details publicly and a different flat earther Facebook stalked a friend of mine and same thing released his details publicly accused him of being a deceiver I mean, this is pretty full on stuff when ultimately all I'm doing is saying to people here's my research. Here's my reasoning. Here are my questions. Let's have a chat about this for people to go to those kinds of links it shows that this is more than just an exploration for them. This is more than just questioning what they think they know or

34:35 questioning how they've been deceived, this has become something of an identity for them. And that's not what I got into this for Greg. I never got into this to take up a new identity as a believer of this thing or as a promoter of that thing. I just got here find out well how have I been deceived and how can I improve my life? So when I was listening to your chat with Gordon I thought, I can relate to this Greg. Even if you're saying that the dinosaur hoax is a distraction whereas I think it's actually a very important topic that is worthy of our time. I did get where you were coming from because who wants to tell their friends and family now that they're into alternative theories? If the first thing that you're going to be told in response is oh then you must be a flat earther right? It's...I can completely understand that frustration my hope is that by the end of this call

35:25 You and your listeners will understand I'm not feeding into that. I'm doing the opposite I do consider myself to be the world's leading flat-earth skeptic so the same skeptical approach that I take two dinosaurs or the history, I take that to Flat Earth as well and One of the reasons why you won't see so many flat earth skeptic videos on my youtube channel is that once? I'd released 50 of these videos I thought to myself, I've done enough of this now. Every time I release a Flat Earth skeptic video, every time I release a video saying here is the argument of the Flat Earthers, here is the empirical evidence that contradicts it, here is how they are wrong... every time I did that, it felt like all I was doing was giving flat earth more attention. It actually felt like I was feeding the beast

36:10 So, after my 50th Flat Earth Skeptic video I said that's it. I'm finished with this. I recorded a two-hour show where I just reviewed all of those videos and I left that video up on my website and I actually set almost all the other videos to unlisted on my YouTube channel just to disassociate myself from flat earth because I realize now that even by questioning flat earth in some ways what you're doing is helping them So I guess the point i'm trying to make here Greg is that, I feel like I can empathize with your frustration but at the same time. I just don't feel like the work that i'm doing...I don't feel like i'm part of the problem actually kind of feel like my approach is part of the solution. Fair enough! Hey, I agree to some extent or you wouldn't be here so I think thats really well said and I really kinda want to get into the meat of things because man time has just gone by so quickly and I am enjoying this but

37:07 History is clearly a big topic the existence of dinosaurs would fall into history are concepts of human development hunter gatherer societies, ancient egypt greece and rome megalithic structures indigenous cultures i mean it is a huge body of material that you're casting doubt on really the whole human story as its generally accepted how do we introduce people to something like this how you tend to lay a base for the history hooks itself. Excellent question. So one of the things that I like to do is to read out a quote from George Orwell because most people will tell you that they're familiar with the story of 1984 by George Orwell, so here's a quick quote from that book

37:52 If all others accepted the lie which the party imposed, if all records told the same tale then the lie passed into history and became truth. Who controls the past? Render Party slogan controls the future who controls the present controls the past and again that's from 1984 by George Orwell When you were going through school, Greg did you find it strange how often the textbooks would change? Did you ever find that interesting how every few years the textbooks for a particular class. You would have to go and buy a new textbook. You couldn't use one from 10 years ago that was out of date. Do you ever notice that yeah I mean in grade school I think it's a little bit different here but I know what you're saying yeah they definitely change all the time Yeah well maybe these different in your part of world but here in Australia

38:44 It was often the case that a child couldn't use the textbooks from his older brother because by the time he got to the same class, the books had changed. Now there is a commercial I guess incentive behind this if you constantly change the textbooks and the parents have to keep rebuying new textbooks then it means more money for the publishers of the books and these kinds of things so there is a commercial element to it What I'm getting at though is if the textbooks are constantly changing, then every new cohort of children is getting a new version of history. And most parents today do not have a very hands-on approach to their children's education. They send their children off to school and they trust that the children will be taught the truth or what they need to know

39:32 And so what I'm suggesting is that it's actually very easy for what we think is history to change on a regular basis, even through school. And then if you pay attention to the news, you'll notice that Every now and then there'll be a new story about, oh the experts have found this new piece of archaeological evidence that suggests that the timeline goes back even further than we thought. So to use one example when I was in school as a child and i'm only 30 years old by the way Greg, I turned 31 this month We were told that the Indigenous Australians, the natives who were here before colonialism, that they had been here for about 20 000 years. That was a story that we were told at school

40:20 I've spoken with my friends and I've spoken with other people who are my age, who went to different schools than me. And that's how they remember it as well anywhere from 20-40 thousand years. Well just last year there was a news story saying that there was new archaeological evidence that puts the timeline back to maybe 75 thousand years and in the interim in the twenty years between my school and this news story there were several other news stories on an intermittent fashion, and each one of them put back the history another few thousand years. So we're at the stage now where someone my age 30 years old who remembers being taught that the Indigenous had been here for 20,000 years, that history has now been pushed back to 70,000 years according to the experts as their stories are told through the mainstream media

41:11 So, right from the outset I find myself wondering if history can change that much in a space of 20 years or how much has history changed before my time? If I was being educated in the 1990s how different was our history from what was being taught inside the 1950's or 1960's and 1970's. And who would even know who is taking the time to say guys look at fast history has changed here Maybe this is a pattern, maybe this has been happening for some time. So what this has led me to do is to go and look into some of these things, some of these stories that were told about history and in particular I've been looking at ancient Greece, ancient Rome and ancient Egypt

41:57 And what I have discovered, Greg has shaken me to the core of my miserable soul. I have discovered that it turns out that things like Egyptology didn't even exist more than 130 years ago. Egyptology itself, the study of what we call ancient Egypt is only 130 or 140 years old Now, on its own that might not sound so controversial but if we look at where these people get their views from what is their evidence? What are their primary sources for the claims that they give us about ancient Egypt. What I have discovered has led me to the inference that this is all a relatively recent fabrication

42:40 Now, before I go further Greg can I ask you if I say to you ancient Egypt what do you imagine in your mind? Okay. If I say to you those two key terms ancient Egypt what kind of images come to mind? What does your mind associate with the term ancient Egypt? I generally think of people who had a pretty evolved spirituality pharaohs mystery schools And of course the images we get from Hollywood and artist depictions make it seem like a desert oasis with gold and jewels everywhere. That sort of stuff. Yeah exactly, same with me if someone says to me ancient Egypt

43:22 I'm thinking about pyramids. I'm thinking about people doing funny little dances with their hands up to the front and back to the side, and I'm thinking of lots of sand. I'm thinking of maybe slaves or were they workers? Who built the pyramids? Were they slaves or were they paid to be there? Well whoever they were, they must have worked very hard to move all those stones into place. These are the kinds of things that I'm thinking about, and I'm thinking about it all happening thousands of years ago So let's explore where do we get the idea that ancient Egypt is thousands of years old? Where does that idea come from? Have we taken the time to study the sources for these claims or have these ideas been put there by school and by television, and even to an extent by conspiracy culture.

44:11 Well, let's fast forward a little while through my research through the things that I've discovered. What if I were to tell you Greg that according to the official historians if you trace their sources... That is, you open up a history book and it says Say, a particular pharaoh from ancient Egypt is from 4,000 years ago for argument's sake. And you decide I'm going to look into the evidence for that claim. How do they know what he said? How did they know that he was there 4000 years ago? What's their evidence? So you go to the back of the history book, you go to the reference section and you find their sources

44:47 Then you go and look up those sources. Right, what's your evidence that this is what happened thousands of years ago? And you continue this process just tracing through the sources to the actual evidence not the story of what happened but the evidence on which that story is based What if I told you that if you do that The evidence goes back to a thing called the oxyrhynchus papyri from the late 1800s That were discovered by two Oxford scholars in what they claim to have been an ancient Egyptian rubbish dump. That is, that their sources for a lot of the stories that we're told about Ancient Egypt and even Ancient Greece... These primary sources, the sources that supposedly come from the time of Ancient Egypt and of Ancient Greece

45:37 Those sources are claimed to have been discovered by two Oxford scholars named Grenfell and Hunt in the late 1800s, in what they claim to have been an ancient Egyptian rubbish dump. Does that sound like it is even possible that could be the case? Or does it sound like I must be making this up?" Well from going over your work already, I'm familiar with that argument i guess it's suspect but i wonder and im not an expert but there is more documents than just this particular papyri that our concepts of ancient egypt are based on we can see the pyramid so they're there, and they look like they're somewhat old. I don't know how to really date erosion but they also had a language that is no longer in use and i feel like theres

46:30 some depth there to just create or fabricate out of thin air. No? Well, that's exactly right so when you first present to people this idea that if you trace the sources... So you've got official historians who have their stories about what happened in the past If you trace their sources back to the primary source that oftentimes it goes back to a rubbish dump from the late 1800s, discovered by two Oxford scholars. The first response I think will naturally be no, no, there must be other documents and so let's explore that further. We assume there must be more documents because why? Because we've been told all of these stories throughout our life. We've seen them on TV, you went to school who were given all of these stories about

47:19 We assume there must be more evidence, there must be more documentation. So if somebody comes along and they say to us yeah that's what I thought, I thought there must be more evidence so I spent hours and hours searching for it and I couldn't find any every single time the primary sources trace back to relatively recent so-called discoveries our natural inclination is to say to that person no you must be missing something, there must be more evidence that you've missed What our natural inclination isn't to do is to say, I'm going to disprove him. I'm going to get a history textbook. I'm going to check their references. I am going to trace the sources myself and I'm going to discover sources that are much older than he's claiming there are."

48:01 Our natural inclination is not to scrutinize history. It is to take the stories that we're told on face value, which is one of the reasons why I don't blame anyone if after hearing me suggest that a lot of these stories go back to a rubbish dump from late 1800's I don't blame them if they think that I'm making that up or if they think that I'm exaggerating, or embellishing. I don't blame them at all but what I hope some people will do and this is why it's terrific that you've got such a wide audience Greg surely some people in your audience are going to say this John Le Bon guy he must be exaggerating! I'm going to disprove him by getting a history textbook

48:39 by tracing through the sources right back to the primary source, and I'm going to prove that we have evidence that is older than 100 or 200 years. I'm going to prove it! I'm gonna disprove JLB." I'm hoping some of your listeners will do that but i can tell you exactly what's going to happen if they try. They will arrive at the same conclusion as me History as we know it is all a sham. It's all a sham, as ridiculous as that sounds, as crazy as that sounds, as completely bonkers as that sounds if you take the time to trace the sources this is the logical inference that you will draw. It is all a shame. Ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, ancient Rome... All of the stories in our heads? Complete nonsense! And the fact that so few of us will ever take the time to check

49:28 Is a reason as to why this is so easy to pull off. If you can convince the masses of all these stories and none of them take the time to check the sources, then just imagine how easy it would be to deceive the whole lot of them." Hmm... I mean your absolutely right and it's a fair point that its up to me to present you with counter evidence And I don't have any ancient Egyptian papyri in which to do that with that there are a lot of tablets and tombs, and cartouges that do have hieroglyphs on them. I have seen some i've been to the british museum i've been to several museums that have things that they claim are from ancient egypt but i really can't prove that they are or aren't but i guess to play devil's advocate

50:21 The printing press were told came along in the 1400s and I could see that being the internet of its day because information can finally be Distributed with ease because before that everything is handwritten and not really built to last so these chroniclers as a method of preservation had to rewrite these crumbling scrolls and papyri, and sometimes you just won't get your hands on a primary source. These things are fall apart with time i would think i mean i can see you be skeptical of all that it's also a lot of trust to put in people at the ancient past and think that they did an honest job of copying something but its just kind of all we have any is that not a reasonable explanation for why we don't have more primary sources that, the technology wasn't there and people really aren't that concerned with how things are gonna be viewed

51:11 a thousand years past their own life, you know. They're only concerned with their small sliver of time and this might just be an unfortunate aspect of our progression as a species Yeah, well there's a couple of things there. Firstly I don't actually think it is your job to present me with evidence. I think if you're comfortable with your beliefs then you don't have to go out of your way to prove them to me so if I'm saying that I used to completely believe in ancient Egypt and when I was a child I loved the TV show Stargate remember Stargate SG1 and the original film Stargate with Kurt Russell? I still love those and they're largely based on

51:52 Ancient Egypt. Obviously, those are a fictionalized TV show but the narrative of those shows is based on this idea that there was an ancient Egypt the same way that we're told by history and school and TV right? I used to love that stuff so i used to completely believe in ancient egypt and now i don't because i've taken the time to trace through the sources But that doesn't mean it's your job or anyone else's job to prove to me that Ancient Egypt is real. If you're comfortable with your beliefs, then I say that's totally cool! The problem for me is that I got onto this path when I first realized how easily I had been deceived. I thought, I have to get into the habit now of not basing my evidence on my beliefs but basing my beliefs on evidence and that means I have to go and search for evidence. And so with things like ancient history... Well when I was in school, I was given the stories and I was told to memorize the stories

52:49 But we weren't actually given the evidence. We were just given the stories, and the stories in and of themselves are not evidence. Just because hundreds or thousands of people repeat the same story that doesn't make it evidence. What I need to do is try and find the evidence which is why I found myself trying to trace back through the sources. Here's a history book here's what they claim let's go to the references let's go and get that book And that's why I arrived at this position now where I say there are no primary sources. This is all make-believe, but that's just my interpretation now having tried to find the evidence and seeing that there was none, that it was a complete sham. This is the interpretation of come too

53:29 But that was just because that was a skeptical path that I was on and that I am on. This isn't necessarily the path for everyone, because as humans we have to find meaning in the world and sometimes these stories about ancient Egypt or ancient Rome or ancient Greece Sometimes these stories can give us a sense of meaning. And so who am I to come along and say, I've looked for the evidence and I find it completely unconvincing now that I've looked for it and seen what the actual evidence is? It's a joke! Who am I to say oh now you have to also let go of your beliefs in ancient history? No, not at all people can believe whatever they want and this is why my website

54:10 and my YouTube channel, they will always be niche within the broader conspiracy culture realm or within the broader alternative realm. Because what I'm doing is I'm saying look at all these stories that we have a lot of them are based on zero evidence or very uncompelling evidence So let's stop believing in those stories. But that's almost antithetical to the usual human condition, which is to believe in stories, which is to take stories on face value, to assume that the experts have evidence – I've never seen the evidence but there are lots of experts so I'm sure they've got the evidence – That's the natural human condition and it helps give people meaning in their life

54:50 And I'm not trying to take that away. When I was a little bit younger and a little bit more naive, I was on that kind of crusade. I was thinking no everybody should base all their opinions on evidence that they have checked for themselves. Nobody should take silly stories on face value. I got a little bit self-righteous year or two ago but with the benefit of hindsight and with experience, I can see now that a lot of these stories do give people meaning Ultimately, all any of us want to do is be happy. I'm happier being a skeptic and looking for the evidence and tracing back through the sources. I'm happy doing that but I'm unusual in that sense so I'm not saying it's your job to find the evidence to convince me Gregg what i am saying though is that if people wanted to say their opinions are based on evidence

55:40 then it is incumbent on them to check for the evidence, to check the sources. So really people have to make a decision are they going to base their opinions on evidence? Are they going to spend the time scrutinizing the sources or would they rather continue to believe what they believe and I think both choices are perfectly reasonable but they are different choices. There is a distinction between someone who will take the time to search for the sources and someone who will take the stories on face value, there is a difference, there's a significant difference between two. There it is! It is a distinction worth mentioning but that simple question still remains of doesn't the unfortunate reality of technological progression have to be folded into the analysis? Isn't it kind of disingenuous not too

56:29 Well, I'm glad you bring that up because for me this is a very exciting time to be alive. Because of what technology offers us For example, when I went and looked into the story of Herodotus. Herodotus is this important figure of ancient history because according to historians today, Herodotus was the first historian he's considered to be the father of history. He was the first man who accumulate information about what had happened before his time and write it down so that future people could know about his time, and before his time. He's considered to be the father of history

57:11 Now, 50 years ago if I wanted to look into the story of Herodotus as somebody living in Brisbane. I would have been in a lot of trouble. I would have had to jump on a boat and gone over to England and gone through the Oxford libraries or the Cambridge libraries to trace through the sources. And of course that'd be too much trouble so instead I would just rely on my third hand evidence, on my tertiary evidence, the tertiary sources such as encyclopedias or these kinds of things and I would have to take their interpretation or their account of the primary sources on face value. Well, now in 2018 thanks to things like the Internet Archive a lot of the books that go back 100-200 years ago on which modern textbooks are often claiming are their sources those have been uploaded now as PDFs for anyone to check for themselves. So when I was searching through those sources for Herodotus I was able to discover oh okay modern books are all citing this author from 1950

58:12 Let me go and find his book. Ah, I see! In his book he cites as evidence a writer from 1900 for instance. Okay let me go and find a copy of his book." Within a few minutes i had a pdf copy of his book so i was able to read that book find out what he was claiming what is he claiming are his sources? And so i was able to go through this process of just tracing back through the sources Yes, it still takes a lot of time to read all of these books but I have instant access to them. And so in the space of a day or two days or three days or however long it takes me to read all of these books and find out all their sources, I'm able to arrive at the start – the start of the story who was the first person who claimed that Herodotus said or did what Herodotus claims to have said or done? And so with technology now

58:59 Anybody who wants to take a sceptical approach to history can do so from the comfort of their local cafe or from the comfort of their own home. They can access books that are stored in libraries in, say London, or in say the North East of America in one of your prestigious universities We can now access all those in PDF form and digital form instantly which means that now for the first time in recorded human history Anybody can check the validity of these stories and I kind of feel like I'm one of the first people to do this. So even though, I completely understand that 90 or 95% of the people who ever hear this podcast

59:40 We will just assume that I'm crazy or just assume that I am making things up for dramatic effect, whatever. There will be a small percentage of people who'll say, oh give this a try! I will go to Internet Archive and I will see if I can trace back the sources for myself and when they do that they will arrive at the exact same conclusion as me which is that this is all a sham but this not something that people even 20 years ago really had access too. The Internet Archives for instance was only created in 1996, I think by a fellow called Bruce DeCale. So a person in my situation say the 1980s if there was someone living in Brisbane or living in your part of the world who was skeptical about The Stories Of History he would have to travel to libraries in person to check what was in those books

1:00:30 So, the process that I'm going through now this skeptical approach to history it wasn't even possible a few decades ago. It is possible now and I think slowly but surely more people are gonna try this if for no other reason than to debunk me if they say I'm gonna do this to debunk JLB great fantastic because they're still gonna arrive at the same conclusion. It's not like I just did this once and said aha history is fake! I've done this with so many different characters of ancient history that I've now come to the inference. It's not just Herodotus, and it's not just Plato, and it's not just Caesar, and it's not just Tutankhamun—every single time I trace through the sources, I arrive at a brick wall. I arrive at a wireframe mesh. I arrive at a source from a couple hundred years ago who himself cites no other sources. This is all a fabrication."

1:01:22 Provocative man and I do like your confidence. And I wanted to talk to you about history as a discipline, in our top universities so let's get into Oxford and Cambridge from your own site you write, I began by going straight to the top Oxford University according to its About page As the oldest university in the English-speaking world, Oxford is a unique and historic institution There is no clear date for it's founding but teaching existed at Oxford in some form in the year 1096 and developed rapidly from 1167 when Henry II banned English students from attending the University of Paris. And then you say, that is one old university well over 800 years old they claim somehow they don't actually know when they themselves were founded which ought to raise some red flags and a loop in Cambridge here you say

1:02:16 Oxford created their history professorship in 1724. Cambridge also created a modern history professorship in 1724. Britain's two oldest and most prestigious universities both established their professorships in modern history in the very same year, less than 300 years ago? What a coincidence! And I will admit that is pretty interesting right Yes, so in that piece and I should explain to the listeners. I've now got seven pieces on my website, seven articles that have written on what I call the history hoax and they follow a logical structure. So I start off with my history hoax primer and then the next article is The History of History

1:03:02 and the second history in that title has inverted commas, because we think of history as being this distinct academic discipline which must have been going on since humans first learned to write. However if we look into the academic discipline of history it turns out that they fully admit that this is not the case at all and even I was surprised when i first found out that the American Historical Association, the AHA They themselves fully admit that history as an academic discipline only began in the late 1800s. And so when I read that on their website, I thought... That can't be the case!

1:03:40 History as a discipline must go back further than that because supposedly the universities do. So I went to the university's own websites and to their history faculty sub-websites of these universities, and what I discovered was exactly what you just said both Oxford and Cambridge say that their first professor in history didn't come along until 1724, the exact same year So, independent of each other both Oxford and Cambridge claim that their first professor of history he became a professor in 1724. And both of them also say that they didn't start taking undergraduate classes or they didn't start allowing undergraduate examinations in history until another 150 years after that, so the modern academic discipline of history that many of us might assume goes back hundreds or thousands of years

1:04:35 No, it doesn't. The academic discipline of history as we know it today is itself a relatively new creation compared to what we think is human history which in and of itself is not necessarily incriminating but got me looking further again and then I found out that Oxford can't even tell us when they themselves began as a university so the institutions the establishment institutions who are trusted to tell us what was happening thousands of years ago, they can't even tell us when they themselves first began as a university. Now again none of this proves that history is a hoax on its own I'm not claiming that it does but these are the kinds of things that when i found them out led me to go and search into things further

1:05:24 I think there are good points there and i know that this is just a building block and it does have some surprising differences from many assumptions people probably have out there but its kind of steeped in the english speaking world when at least on your site you're talking about the american historical association these major universities like oxford and cambridge But as big as it might seem now, that's kind of a small sliver of humanity. English was only developed in 1066. How far back would this kinda discipline go? I mean what about Latin, Chinese, Hebrew, Sanskrit... Are these not part of the human story? Do you think these are recent inventions that were then back-casted? Well that's a good question. Where does our language come from? Where does English come from and how old are those languages

1:06:16 And when I looked into that question, what I found out was that the way that they try to tell us how old languages are. It often involves things like simple diagrams showing that this word in this language sounds similar to this other word in this other language and this other word in this other language and then they draw little arrows between them and they say that the experts infer that this word must have led to that word and so on and so forth And that's how we arrived at what we believe are the histories of these languages. Now, I completely understand how difficult it must be to untangle this, to untangle how old are the languages? That's kind of the point of what I'm making here is when you actually think about how difficult it must be to determine where our languages came from

1:07:05 Why would we then be so quick to just take on face value whatever is the current official story about these things? So I don't know how old the English language is. I don't know how old Latin is or Hebrew, all these kinds of things. What I can tell you though is bringing it back to the history hoax element once upon a time, so goes the story according to Cambridge and Oxford in these kinds of places. Once upon a time when you were being taught history, you had to know how to speak Greek yet and how to speak Latin that was part of your training in the classical studies. These days you can graduate with a three-year history degree without having to know a single language other than English and to me, that oughta raise a red flag for people because what that means is that if people like Herodotus or people like Tutankhamun or people like Caesar or any of these characters of history

1:07:55 If they or their contemporaries were writing in their own language, then there's no way that we could read it for ourselves. We would have to read at the very best a translation in English Now that doesn't mean that we can't know what those people were saying but if we're only reading English and those people supposedly wrote in other languages then we ought to be skeptical or critical of, well where does that translation come from? Who performed the translation? Why would I take this translation on face value. And what I'm suggesting is that if we go through that process if we say right what is considered today to be the best translation of their works let's go and find a copy of that book once we find that book let's find out

1:08:42 Where does that author claim that they got their original Herodotus from, or their original Caesar? Or their original Tutankhamun? Or any of these characters in history. What is their translation based on where is the original and what I discovered when I went through this process Is that in many cases there IS no original so let's use one example Herodotus If you look up the story of Herodotus today, you'll be told that we know what Herodotus was saying and we know what Herodotus was documenting. Okay great! What is this story based on? We'll find out that the official story says that we've got books from 1850 there's a guy in 1850 who wrote a terrific translation of Herodotus work fantastic let's get a copy of that book which we can do now thanks to The Internet Archive

1:09:31 Let's find that book and read that, and find where does that guy say he got his original Herodotus. If we follow this process at the end of that line you'll find people writing books maybe 200 years ago but they give no source whatsoever for what they're saying Herodotus wrote nothing...nothing at all I know how outrageous that sounds, but that's what i have discovered by tracing through the sources. That's where i'm at right now so you make a good point about English and Hebrew and Latin and these kinds of things if someone says to me hey i've got a copy what Herodotus wrote and it is in his native language

1:10:09 Here you go. Great, I would love to see that but from the research that i've done there is no such thing The closest that we have are the Oxyrhynchus papyri which as I said earlier were discovered in Egypt In the late 1800s by a couple of fellows from Oxford Which they claim to have been written by the original authors but they say it was found in a rubbish dump, basically in an empty area of Egypt. Okay? So the closest that we have to primary sources were discovered 120 years ago in a rubbish dump by two Oxford scholars. In the meantime all the stories we've got about Herodotus they lead us to believe oh these translations must be based on the original but if we look through the sources of the translations they don't tell us what they were translating from I mean this is a big deal Greg how do I put this

1:11:00 Hopefully, you and your audience can see why I think this is a big deal. This is not a distraction. This is not some kind of put on that I'm doing to me. This is a big deal if we have been deceived about what we think we know about ancient history that is a huge deal and it's instructive of the modern human condition that so many of us can spend so many years believing these stories without spending so much as a single afternoon checking the sources for those stories. Fair and i do agree that this is a big deal I mean that's why of the topics on the table, i wanted to focus on this because history of course is relevant to our lives and also of course think there are major deceptions in history

1:11:47 i think our only disagreement is scale and if we were to talk about ancient egypt a bit more as an example like i look at the work of john anthony west or robert shock right i mean they're famous for questioning the official narrative of egypt by pushing it back much farther and making a case that was much more complex than exceptionally advanced in their cosmology and spiritual understandings that it's typically presented. And it was Robert Schock who really had no dog in the fight, he is an expert on weathering and he looked at the Sphinx and said this damage on it is clearly water erosion so then you take the date back to when there was rain in the Egyptian desert again as assumption and that puts the Sphinx way back even before conventional history

1:12:33 Those are kind of the ways i think the lies have been told and where the truth might lie but i guess you think guys like this are either part of a deception or working on faulty premises themselves. Well, I don't want to speak about John Anthony West or Robert Schock specifically. I don't want to criticize or critique their claims because I haven't engaged with their work directly there. What I would ask you though Greg is if you found their work convincing can you recall any of the primary sources that they might have had to put forward about? The ancient characters of history or was there work specifically about the erosion of the objects that we call the pyramids in this things

1:13:14 what were their claims based on? Right. And that's why I chose this as an example, because it is just about the Sphinx. It's about the enclosure of the Sphinx and the markings that are on it because I guess the assumption is the Western world stumbled upon this shit they're like what is this how far back does it go and conventional Egyptology puts the stuff around 5 000 years old Robert Shock looked at it as a weather damage expert and said Actually this is water erosion which it doesn't rain in egypt like you think it does you know what that means the desert doesn't rain like that now so for this damage to have occurred there's an assumption that there was actually a river there that the sphinx was near and edit.

1:14:01 was once lush. And so you have to take that back to something like 12,000 years to get it into the right place in which rain would be falling there and so of course I'm... A lot of assumptions here but the point is that there are markings on The Sphinx that got their somehow one expert who's an alternative guy who the mainstream has tried to shut down quite a bit and I know they run counter narratives too, I wouldn't dismiss that But he says this damage is done by water erosion. You move it back in history, some people would say it aligns with the constellation Leo that originally had a lion's head and some of these pieces start to come together In an alternative way that mainstream Egyptology dismisses So they're fighting that narrative again could be a counter-narrative

1:14:50 But that's why I chose the example of the Sphinx is erosion because it's kind of simple. It doesn't really require the tracing back of documents and scrolls that might have disintegrated over time or something like that Yeah, I completely understand. It's a good example too because a lot of what i'm talking about has to do with the sources in terms of the literal sense like what is the literary evidence for what we think we know about history? So those things can be easily fabricated and a person can claim that a piece of papyri is 2000 years old when really it might be significantly less than that whereas some of these physical relics such as this sphinx or the pyramid

1:15:29 Well, how can you fake how old they are? And that is a terrific question. I guess my point would be what is our control if you think about your typical way of trying to measure something oftentimes it's useful to have a control element now in the case of the Sphinx You and I don't have a 2,000 year lifespan To build us things and then see How much does it erode in 10 years or in 100 years or in 2000 years right we don't have a way to test to see how quickly something like that would erode. So if someone tells us that the erosion that has happened to it is the result of a hundred years or five hundred years, two thousand years or maybe ten thousand years what do we compare that too? What can you and I compare that to? We can either take what they're saying on faith or we can say well this guy can't convince me because how long has he been observing the erosion? If he was to observe the erosion for 10 years and notice

1:16:27 for argument's sake, x millimeters of erosion at this particular point in the object in 10 years then you could see how they can draw an inference. They can extrapolate from that well here is how far back we think the erosion goes Now, again I haven't dealt with John Anthony West or Robert Schock's material so I don't know what their method was for telling us what the erosion reveals about the age of the objects. Can you remember Greg when you were reading their work? Or when you were interacting with their work like did they present a method of that nature? Like how did they arrive at thousands of years? What was the method that they were employing

1:17:03 Well i think it just relies on his general opinion as a weathering expert. It doesn't rely on any dating except the presumptions about climate and previous ages I think again big assumptions, But I always found that alternative theory interesting and then it gets into the size of the head being too small. And if you take it back to that time, It would have better aligned with the constellation Leo and that woulda made more sense? I know that makes some assumptions about The Night Sky 2 but I see a couple pieces coming together in a way that makes sense AND is very different from the mainstream

1:17:40 But regardless of that, you have used this term wireframe mesh a couple of times. And I know what you're talking about because I've seen these pictures online that look like black and white photos of people building the Sphinx or a crane lifting Stonehenge into place. In the same way you can't trust The Chain Of Custody with some of these documents or the universities that study this stuff... ...I can't trust images like that in the Photoshop age even though they are interesting Maybe these images i'm talking about a line with your view but i don't wanna put words in your mouth so i guess i would just straight up ask you do you think the megalithic sites of the world are just recent inventions that were being lied to about.

1:18:24 Well, I'm definitely open-minded to that possibility. If you look at the Sphinx for an example... So if you ask official history what do we know about the Sphinx? They'll tell you that the first archaeological dig of this thing took place in the early 1800s so we're talking about 200 years ago they'll tell you that it was a character named Giovanni Battista Caviglia who conducted the first archaeological dig that uncovered the Sphinx as we know it today, 200 years ago. So I would think is it possible that this sphinx is thousands of years old and it just went unknown buried for thousands of years before it was discovered? I would say yes, that is possible why not

1:19:10 Is it also possible that a couple of hundred years ago, there were some people who either played an elaborate prank or performed some kind of elaborate hoax for their own ends? Whether to deceive people or make money for tourist venture or whatever the case might be. Is it possible that 200 years ago they carved something out of stone themselves and told the world that it was thousands of years old. Is that possible? And I would say, yes of course that's possible so we've got a few different possibilities here now at that point the average person feels too busy or they don't feel like they have got the technical expertise

1:19:46 to look into the matter for themselves, they're going to want an authority figure to give them a narrative about the Sphinx. So there will be some people who will say well, the official experts say that it's X number of thousand years old, that's what I'm going to go with. There'll be other people who will say no-no, there are these alternative researchers who claim it goes back even further than that maybe 10,000 years old or 15,000 years old, that's the narrative that I'm gonna go with Then, perhaps sadly there are some people on YouTube who will say no-no my favorite flat earther says that the Sphinx was built by hand 200 years ago. I'm going to go with that not because they've done their own research but because that fits in with their narrative so people are naturally going to follow whichever explanation for this relic of history They're gonna follow whichever one fits in with their preconceived notions the most and going back to what I was saying earlier

1:20:42 I don't have a problem with that. If someone says to me that they want to believe or they would prefer to believe, it just feels right for them that the Sphinx is 10,000 years old or 5,000 years old or whatever the case might be I'm totally cool with that. But for me, all I can go with is the evidence and the only evidence I've got is that this thing exists. It was discovered 200 years ago even according to the mainstream account. That's when it was discovered 200 years ago and knowing what I know about how some humans love deceiving others... They love to pull off hoaxes. They love to pretend they've got this piltdown man that proves evolution or whatever the case might be.

1:21:23 Knowing what I know about humans, how much some of them love to deceive others and how easily the rest of them are deceived. I can't help but infer that maybe this Sphinx was created a couple hundred years ago but I don't know. I'm not saying that this is the case. I'm saying that I don't know but I'm not going to believe it's thousands of year old just because that fits in with other beliefs, that's not the way that I interact with the world around me. But I hope I'm making sense there Greg like you get where I'm coming from it's like if someone wants to believe that this Sphinx is thousands of years old? I say that's totally cool all i'm saying is that the evidence that we've got... The empirical evidence well all we really got is the Sphinx

1:22:05 And if someone says, oh it erodes over a certain time. Great! Show me your control show me your method show me how you've shown that particular material erodes at that rate over time I'm happy to look but in the absence of all of that all we have is claims and conjecture for something which even the official story admits was only discovered 200 years ago That's fair and Robert Schock is not Jesus and he could be absolutely wrong How to know it's a difficult thing because i am with you in terms of their being so many deceptions and the past and, it's really hard to parse out where the truth may lie and i'm not religious about any of my ideas are where i plant my flag. I generally go against the mainstream narrative and find something else in material that's based on something that makes sense to me and it is ago with your gut type of thing because

1:23:01 You know with what you just said you kind of put us in a box where if something is a thousand years old and it works both ways to cuz how can robert shock be so sure that this is water erosion that happened over the span of lifetimes when you only have one lifetime with which to examine things but. That's kinda catch twenty two as well because then if something is a thousand years old, you can't know it I guess Yeah, it's difficult to know. All we can do is draw inferences. I'm sure if you were to speak with John Anthony West or Robert Shocke, I'm sure that if they were intellectually honest people and I imagine they are, they would say well, I don't know how old it is but my research or my beliefs lead me to the inference that it's thousands of thousands of years old. I'm sure they would be forthright about that, that the best they can do is draw inferences from the evidence which is all that any of us can

1:23:56 And so if the inference that they draw leads them to many thousands of years old, again that's totally cool with me. The point that I would make though is that even according to the official narrative, the Sphinx has been restored So the Sphinx that you see if you go to Egypt, you're not even looking at the Sphinx as it was discovered let alone as it was supposedly built. Even the empirical evidence, the direct line of sight that you can have all this things if you go and visit, even that what you're looking at is a modern version of what was allegedly there thousands of years ago and I suppose if I can make a point on that

1:24:35 I mentioned earlier that when i was a child, I loved the TV show Stargate and that a lot of the Stargate narrative is based around the narratives we have about ancient Egypt. And it seems to me the more research that I do and the more that I look into the official stories of things It seems to be as though there's a lot of myths built on top of myths or there are narratives built on top of narratives So to give one example I know somebody very well and he's a really cool guy. I love the guy actually, he is one of the most important people in my life that I've had on this journey so far in my life someone who has been there to support me doing things that are worth doing trying to improve my life and improve the lives of people around me This guys done more to support me than most people

1:25:26 He happens to believe in ancient aliens. He happens to believe in the narrative that the ancient civilizations had direct contact with extraterrestrials, you know, the whole Dogon tribe from East Africa, this idea that they knew about Sirius and all this kind of thing? Right! Those are narratives he personally believes in and I think a couple years ago when I was maybe being a little bit self-righteous with my skepticism I think, I didn't appreciate that. That was how he made sense of the world around us and that was something that he enjoyed reading the books about. He even went to a lecture when Von Daniken came to Australia or one of these well-known people who talk about these topics and

1:26:09 Rather than be supportive of the fact that this story was important to him I think I was too skeptical in the sense that I said to him well, what's the evidence for this? What's the evidence for this at the time? I didn't appreciate the importance of stories to humans and so right now we're in a situation where a large part of Conspiracy culture and I like that term by the way. I got conspiracy culture from you I used to just call it the alternative realm or these kinds of things but conspiracy cultures go back to describe it a Large part of conspiracy culture now people do believe in or they do propagate these narratives that are themselves built on other narratives. So if somebody like me comes along and says, well maybe ancient Egypt is thousands of years old I'm open-minded to that but I've done some research and my research suggests that the primary evidence or the empirical evidence only goes back 150 years tops what i'm doing is ipso facto

1:27:04 undermining their belief in stories which are based on that. So if someone believes in ancient aliens and direct contact between the ancient civilizations and extraterrestrials, for instance then when I come along a question the very notion that there was an ancient Egypt then without trying to do so I'm undermining the other narratives that people like to use to try to understand their place in this world And like I was saying to you before we started recording, that's not my goal. I'm not here to take away people's beliefs. It's simply the case that by going down the skeptical path, I took away my own beliefs. You know what I mean? I still remember how much I used to love the show Stargate and I'm sure if I watch an episode, I could still enjoy Richard Dean Anderson and the whole SG1 crew like I could still enjoy it but not in the same way that I used to because

1:27:53 So much of that narrative is built on what we think is real. We think the fictional Stargate narrative is built on the factual ancient Egypt narrative, but I've now come to the conclusion that the ancient Egypt narrative is itself fictional so it's fiction built upon fiction and I can completely understand why for some people this is offensive they won't say less offensive They'll call me crazy or they'll say that I must be trolling or whatever, but deep down what I'm doing is I'm hurting their feelings because a lot of their meaning comes from these narratives. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that because none of us knows how we got here Greg. I don't know how we got here. I don't know why we're here. I think about this every day. Why on earth am I here? We live in a bizarre world. There are some crazy things happening

1:28:39 And I don't plan to get, I don't want to divert into what some people call politics. But some of this stuff to do with what they're teaching children in school now about transgenderism and all these kinds of things... This is a bizarre world for someone like me who's in his 30s It wasn't that long ago that we were being told that the future was going to be so bright and we're all so tolerant now, but in many ways it seems to me like we're living in some kind of weird dystopia. And it only seems to be speeding up at rapid pace. So I find myself thinking what is going on here? Why am I here? How did I get here?"

1:29:14 And as a skeptic, it can be frustrating at times because it's now difficult for me to latch onto a narrative about who we are and why we're here. Whereas the atheist who goes to university he can say oh well we got here through evolution you see there was a primordial soup and there was bacteria and over millions of years that evolved to be what we are today That's how we got here, you see. And there is no purpose to life it's all just a cosmic accident and eventually the sun will burn out and that'll be the end of humanity and that's why we're here right? So they've got their narrative to believe in. And then many alternative people have their narrative to believe in, they'll say oh well what happened was that ancient civilizations were contacted by extraterrestrials who gave them magical technology and taught them the truths of the world and in fact humans themselves thanks to panspermia, they got here from other parts of the universe, they got her on a comet as bacteria and thats how we got here

1:30:13 So the point of what I'm saying is that when people buy into these narratives, what it gives them is a sense of who they are and why they're here. And I think it's natural for humans to want that For me as someone who now has taken up the practice of skepticism, I no longer have that. I can't tell you why I'm here or I can't tell you why we're here and day to day I don't have an answer for these things. And I've gotten used to that now this is just a way that I live my life everyday is a wonder to me that I am even here. I can't explain why I'm here. I can't explain why your are here. I can't explain why were here so everyday's a wonder to me and it's amazing to me but there is this sense in me

1:30:53 I wish I could believe in something. I wish I could believe in Big Bang human evolution theory, like I kind of wish I could go back to that." I wish I could go back to how I was before I started looking for the evidence and spending my afternoons tracing through the sources. I wish I could go back to that, or you know, I wish I could be more like my friend who he has his von Daniken books and he has these ideas about humans getting here from extraterrestrials or whatever the case is." And that gives him a sense of comfort. I wish I could be like that sometimes It's a little bit like Cypher in the Matrix where Cypher is sitting there having his steak when he's chatting with the agent and he's saying, I know that this steak is fake. I know it's not real. I know this is just impulses in my brain telling me that this is a stake but you know, I enjoy it." And what he decides to do was go back into being a normie going back into being a believer of things going back into The Matrix

1:31:46 I think about this a lot, this idea that if I could go back in time would I tell the four-year ago version of myself that the path that he's on is a good path? And I've got some evidence that it is great. Like I said, I've completely improved my diet and my exercise regime and so many things about my life. In that sense yes being skeptical revisiting what I thought that I knew going right back to the start looking for the evidence, yes it has been beneficial but In other ways, you know maybe not. Maybe I was happier believing the stories even though ultimately many of them were based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever

1:32:27 i mean cheers to that and you know the big bang in creationism the foundations of both sides of the dichotomy today have religion and science may they both come from the same place, the big bang was created by a vatican astronomer i find that very interesting because that's supposed to be the antithesis of scientific thought so yeah i love digesting where things come from when you make a good point about Would you go back and go down this road i mean what they say ignorance is bliss i've got plenty of friends from high school that live simple but happy lives and before the show worked out i would often think, no god damn it i wish i was as ignorant as so and so because i wish i could be happy with a mediocre job standing behind cash register all that stuff unfortunately i can't.

1:33:19 So you know i can pay myself into a really tough position and it's created the standard that was really hard to. Get two and luckily in my case it worked out but i know exactly what you mean about, Ignorance is bliss wouldn't be easier just to not wrestle with these questions and just live a simple, unhappy life and i mean obviously we are where we are so i think that this is the better choice but you know it was so much to digest of the history hoax. I always think a show like this flows best when we sort of poke in the holes and then try to get at the real deal. So, I would hope we dug up enough here to get people questioning but then were left with well what is the truth? And I know you said you don't know...I can't expect you to know but can you talk about your model for who crafted such an epic conspiracy per se rather than where we came from but like who's behind the history hoax?"

1:34:16 Yeah, absolutely. Greg are you familiar with the idea of synchronicities? I mean i've heard you speak about it is this something that you do believe in that some coincidences they truly are meaningful? I would say yeah! I do believe in that and I also believe that if you pay more attention They come at you more often and it almost feels supernatural because they do happen, such a strange rate and i'm open to the fact that it could just be random coincidence but. The more they stack up the more i'm led to a different mode of thinking about them same here is the right these things off as pure coincidence

1:34:53 But now that I've started paying attention to what's happening, they seem to happen more. And people will say oh well you're paying attention so you'll notice them more? Yeah of course that makes sense but some of the coincidences in my life recently have just been phenomenal to the point where I've gone from being someone who believes there is only the material realm as only what we can see and touch on these kinds of things to someone who is now much more open to this idea that there's more than just a material going on And another example of that was just a moment ago, you said ignorance is bliss. Which I don't think I had brought up in this chat but it ties in perfectly with everything we've been talking about because the model that I use the way that I look at the world

1:35:35 it is mirrored or it is shown in a very similar way, in a film that very few people have heard about called The 13th Floor. So when you were chatting with Gordon White you guys are talking about how sometimes films can be used as a model or just as a framework for looking at the world and sort of how do I convey to you the way that I see things? Sometimes by using films or other pop culture references It's just a way to try and convey an idea that's in someone's mind So, one of the films that I use—one of the films that I like to use to try and describe to people the way that I see things is this film called The 13th Floor. And it was released in 1999 around about the same time as Dark City and The Matrix and some of these films that they almost seem to be telling us what's going on whether intentionally or otherwise

1:36:26 Some of the themes that they talk about, they do seem to relate to life as we see it. As people who have alternative views on things. So can I ask you Greg? Have you seen the film The 13th Floor? Are you familiar with this late 1990s sci-fi epic? It's been referenced...I can pretty much picture the cover but it is foggy so give us the cliff notes! Yes, so what happens is this character finds out that there's been a big disturbance and the boss of his company has apparently died. And he's now a suspect and the company that he runs is to do with what we might call virtual reality they're developing virtual reality technology so people can immerse themselves in a fictional world and it is incredibly realistic to the point where it gets addictive

1:37:16 I don't want to spoil the film for people. However, for me to describe to you the model that I'm using, I'm going let the cat out of the bag so listeners please forgive me for that but basically what he discovers is just as their alternative reality that he has created it seems so real and the fictional characters, the CGI characters seem so lifelike and realistic He finds out that he himself is living in a fictional reality. The way that he finds that out is because just before his boss died, had left behind a note to say what you need to do is drive out to Tucson, Tucson being a city obviously in the United States and he thinks to himself well why would I need to do

1:38:02 So he drives out to Tucson and what he discovers is that there's nothing there. Beyond the city limits, there is just a wireframe mesh okay so he's been living his life thinking that he lives in a real world and he thinks that he knows what's going on beyond the city limits but actually if you drive far enough where there's no other people, where no one else seems to be driving. No one else can be bothered driving out that far. Everybody is happy in the city." No one tests the limits of their own reality they just take it for granted but if you do test the limits such as through checking the sources of what we are told is history by checking those limits, by checking through the sources, by doing something that other people will tell you is crazy you might discover

1:38:46 Our reality too is much like this. There is this wireframe mesh in the case of history, we all just assume that there is all this other life out there that there are experts who've double checked and they're always sources and always books and always tablets that must tell us what was happening thousands of years ago because all of us are so confident about Very few of us check it. I do feel as though, I am one of the first people to use the internet archive, to use this amazing technology that we have, to take my own trip out to Tucson and say right what is out there? I assume that there's a whole world out there. I assume that there is all this evidence for history but I'm going to test it and over the course of many days and weeks and months and years what I discovered was that in the case of ancient history, in every direction

1:39:36 There's just a wireframe mesh. There is nothing more than that, what we think we know about ancient history thousands of years ago there are no primary sources there is nothing direct on which this is based it is all a sham there's nothing out there this reality that we're living in We have all these ideas and our heads of what is going on out there and what we know when what the experts know And we think we know what's going on But if we take the time to take a drive out to Tucson, which I'm using as an analogy for taking the time to check through the sources of these stories. Not just taking the experts opinion not just taking that consensus opinion but looking for the primary sources or looking for the empirical evidence that we can see with our own eyes If we do that We will find That all there is out there is a wireframe mesh

1:40:27 All of us have been deceived and because all of us have been deceived, we all assume that we must be right. Because hey, we're all in this together." So if history was a lie somebody would've come and told us by now so we can just take it for granted that its out there just as in the film The 13th Floor you can just take it for granted that Tucson exists You don't need to drive out there If it wasn't there someone would've told us by now Well in the film the guy who was running CGI he says look you need to go test this for yourself And when the protagonist of the film does that, he discovers it's all a wireframe mesh. And I feel like that's what I'm doing now. I'm saying to you and I'm saying to your audience if you want to believe that Tucson is out there go on believing because maybe you're happier that way. Maybe I was happier that way."

1:41:12 But it's too late for me now. I have gone and looked for Tucson, and it is not real." Okay? Tucson being an analogy to the primary sources of history they don't exist we've been completely deceived And not only this you can try and tell all your friends and family about this They won't listen They'll think you're crazy You can even tell people who say that they are open-minded They wont' listen, they wont check You can tell people who say that their into research alternative research They won't check for those sources Their happy believing what they believe This is an incredibly lonely path because most people will never try this. And again, using that same analogy if you try and force people into the car if you say look I've got the car ready The cars all warmed up I know how to get there Come with me! I'll drive You can just sit there and relax and in a couple of hours I'm going to show you the wireframe mesh Most people won't jump in the car Even if you say look I'll pay for the gas I'll do everything Just come with me and see what I found

1:42:09 they won't come along and have a look with you. They don't want to know." That is the reality that we're living in, only a very small percentage of us and I mean a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of people will ever take the time to check through the sources for themselves. Only a tiny percentage of people will do what I've done. I drove out to the middle of Australia. It took me three days to get to a dinosaur museum in the heart of the Australian Outback where they let you see the holotype specimen of dinosaurs. They let you see what is supposed to be the original dinosaur, okay? Because most of what you see in museums they admit is just a recreation there's not many places where a layman or regular person can see the holotype specimen well I did that it took me three days to drive to the middle of Australia I live in Brisbane which is on our east coast I had to drive all the way into Winton I wanted to see for myself What is your evidence

1:43:05 When I saw it, I thought it figures. I kind of knew what was going to be like this." It's all a sham, Gregg. It's all a sham. All of us are shamed but most people are never going to take that drive and so to tie all of these in at the beginning of the film The 13th Floor, the character who is killed after he writes the note to say take your drive to Tucson, he writes on his note All of my life I've heard people say that ignorance is bliss, and for the first time...I agree with them. And for me, that's powerful stuff. It's like yeah once you see this all the wireframe mesh maybe you're gonna wish it didn't know that Maybe you're gonna wish that You just believed all the stories you believed and when people like John Le Bon came along you said not he's crazy He's crazy must be making it up must be a troll Must be a government agent sensor discredit The Truth Movement must be all of these things he can't possibly be onto something here I'm going to ignore him

1:44:05 Well, for the small percentage of your audience who does go and try and disprove me and find primary sources for Herodotus in these kinds of characters. Primary sources not appeals to authority or appeals to consensus I mean actual primary source evidence the tiny percentage of your audience who takes a tribe out to Tucson they're going to see wireframe mesh and boy oh boy my friend it's... The skeptic path is a lonely path Well i love it man and this is all super provocative i think you definitely hit us with some raw truth because your ride a lot of people are going to actually do the work they'll make an emotional appeal and, check their best but i would love for someone to get you something where you have to come back and say well maybe i should look at that and that's on them to do.

1:44:55 And I think this was a really fun ride and i know that it might have been, a little abrasive or triggering at the beginning but i hope people stuck with it and yes i just appreciate common ground. And about that hollywood secret society i just want to remind the listeners that we recently did a show with court lindahl and he talked about writers guilds that edgar allen poe and jules verne were apart of I know you know this but it goes back way further than hollywood like they obviously upgraded the technology to film but this template of. Guild or secret societies crafting the stories that real stuff pops out over real ideas pop out of though it is fiction, thats not new and it's really interesting there's a deep rabbit hole there and if this is the track that your on now i mean i hope you'll come back

1:45:52 when that research comes to a completion point, if that's even possible. And it is just a really great way to cast into the future our intention to do this again sometime Greg, if I'm welcome back on your show. I will absolutely be here again and I didn't want to say this at the start of the call because it might have come across the wrong way but your work has been an inspiration for me and see you succeeding? I remember listening to a call from yours years ago where you were saying that your teachers in school were basically trying to suggest that you weren't going to be successful or you're wasting talent or whatever the case might have been and for you is was a case well I am gonna do this podcast then if I get successful

1:46:32 It's going to kind of show the teachers that they doubted me when I shouldn't have doubted me or worse than effect. I'm kind of paraphrasing the message that I got from you in that podcast, but this was a few years ago back when I was basically just podcasting as a hobby and it took me a little while to develop research methodology and ideas to present to people. It was interesting enough to build an audience, so this has been a long journey that never even started off trying to build a member-based website but that's where I'm at right now. Your work seeing that you could do this even if a lot of the topics that you talk about on your podcast or many of your guests are basically the complete opposite of me in terms of what they're trying to do. That doesn't change the fact that I respect what you've done with a podcast and when you contacted me to say, Do you want to come on this show? I was like this is fantastic and I've been looking forward to this for months and months

1:47:21 I can't thank you enough for the opportunity to speak with your audience. So, I hope that my first appearance on the show was okay? I think I started off a little bit rusty and maybe need to work on drinking more water as the call goes on so the voice isn't so raspy but I've had a great time this has been a very enjoyable call. I can't thank you enough for it! I know you've got a lot of editing to do to fix all of this up But I hope that the final product is up to the standard that you and your audience are looking forward to. And if I'm ever welcome back on the show, I will take the opportunity with open arms assuming that you don't do a hatchet job on me and edit the hell out of this podcast but I'm sure it'll be nice representation of the call. Truly thank you for what you've done. Thank you for what you're doing

1:48:03 Like I said, I heard you in that call with Gordon a few weeks ago where you said that you were a little bit jaded by the conspiracy culture and I completely empathize with that. I think what you're doing is good and basically, you're saying to people look. You don't have to be scared of what's happening. You don't have a negative attitude. There are good things that are happening and there is no one stopping you from doing the higher side chats. There is no one stopping me from doing JohnLeBond.com. Anybody who wants to this kind of thing can do it and I can speak for you but I can say for me that by delving into this research, by sharing with people, by having people out there who've signed up my website and sent me nice emails

1:48:40 I supported the thing that I'm trying to do here. It's been a truly magnificent thing for my life and so, I kind of see this call as almost like a milestone in the journey because you know, I started off listening to your podcast and now chatting with you and yeah it's been terrific! So thank you very much if i'm invited back again I'll be here don't worry about that Right on well i appreciate the kind words you did a great job this is the longest show i've done in awhile people should know that, you got up at seven am for this so i appreciate that and i think he got a provocative body of work. You're good speaker and it was great time no matter where someone might fall in the conspiratorial spectrum and before we go give the people what they need to really dig deeper into what you do the website youtube that stuff

1:49:26 Yeah, absolutely. So yeah we started the call at 7am and I actually set my alarm for 6pm on my day off because i wanted to revise a few notes before the call and a lot of people out there will be saying six o'clock that's a sleep in for me! And that's fair enough but yeah for me six o'clock is a little bit early so uh... I might have been a bit rusty but no I'm glad I got up early and had this call. It's a great start to the day, it's only half past 10 now so I can go and do what needs to be done." And as for the website if you just go to johnlebonn.com you'll see that I've got literally dozens and dozens of articles about all kinds of things today we've spoken about the history hoax and a few other things that I think might be hoaxes. So iIve got a tonne of material on there now A lot of it is available publicly absolutely for free No cost necessary to access

1:50:12 I also have a membership section where I go into more detail about some of my research. And, unfortunately the website is going well and it's starting to become pretty decent side business which is allowing me to spend more time doing the research and It's all going very well. So the way to see more of my work is to go to johnlebonn.com and also dinosceptic.com in the next few weeks I'll be releasing a film that actually did the principal photography for last year, I went out into the middle of Australia to record all the footage I could have these holotype specimens in the Outback of Australia and I do a lot of research into the official story of these dinosaurs scientific papers that

1:50:51 are used to supposedly verify that these dinosaurs are real. So I did a lot of research, recorded a lot of footage and that film will be released sooner rather than later and you'll be able to see that at dinoskeptic.com so johnthelabon.com and dinosceptic.com And also check out the show notes for this call with Greg he'll put the little JPEG image my little diagram that i've got for The Library of Alexandria and I think if nothing else It's worth checking that out just to get more of an idea of what I'm trying to suggest is happening with this thing that we call history. So wrap it up there, Greg. I'll shut up now and let you do your closing monologue. And thanks once again to yourself and the listeners into everybody out there until next time you guys take care of yourselves for sure awesome thanks again good luck with everything hopefully we can get you away from that busy street before next time let's get that membership taken off but until then man keep doing what you do take care of yourself

1:51:46 Yes, people! John Le Bon JLB coming in hot. The man pulls no punches but seriously I did like this one he's pretty extreme but John isn't throwing things out willy-nilly he's methodical He knows where these sources can be traced to and he's confident in why he thinks what he thinks You definitely made me think twice about tesla in the second hour or really i should say third hour because this interview. Is about two hours and fifty minutes even after editing so pretty damn long and free portion is a bit longer, because i didn't wanna cut up person off in the middle of making their case for something so grand

1:52:30 It's not really fair because it takes a while to wade through all the little details that stack up towards the conclusion. And regardless of how you feel about the case, I would like a person to be able to make a full one And it is funny that we talked about the show I did with Gordon. I hope a little explanation there was useful for people who were offended by what i said, and when I say something about the conspiracy community that is not an insult to THC fans directly. I think of us as separate really we're actually just a small part of that community and I like to think a higher caliber portion of it

1:53:07 I don't know. It really was just a plea to not lose sight of having some type of goal within conspiracy research Sometimes people get feelings of self-importance because they've discovered the new thing on YouTube Obviously that can be done to a fault, i dont know why thats controversial People like the term truth seeking i don't really like that term it's too vague its got a lot of overused contacts and a lot of residue on it. From things that are not the truth betterment i think is a clear word, and i'd like to thank john i'm pretty aligned in that department he seems like you got a lot more discipline than i do but thats normal could say about pretty much anybody

1:53:51 But I would hope this show serves as a good example of how two people can respect each other and talk about things they might disagree on, but stay focused on the arguments and the data. I know John was a bit guarded or should i say skeptical of me even and my motivations but that seems to be his nature to a degree. And in his defense, I've heard some previous interviews with him and the host can be really shady and attack his character speculate about his background that kind of thing...and I would admit I am a little curious to hear more about his background but it doesn't really have much to do with the information presented

1:54:32 I always try to focus on the information rather than the messenger. Some would say, to a fault but the challenge either way has been issued and i'm going to make Jon a plus member hopefully he will engage with some of the comments there if you do have counter evidence to present He doesn't need to just hear that his theories are ridiculous I'm sure he's been told that but if you have counter-evidence that could be useful I do sort of understand this argument that well if this is our past. This is the human story why are we just rediscovering at all in the last two hundred years, why isn't it just in the record sometimes it does feel like we were plopped down out and nowhere and learning about the past as if it was just input in a simulation

1:55:21 But I did do some digging after the fact. I know he focused on the garbage heap papyri and again, i don't know about these as primary texts...I guess they could be made up but if you go to pyramidtextsonline.com they have a pretty vast library of documents. I haven't vetted them to trace them to their sources but I've also seen a lot of Egyptian artifacts in museums. Not necessarily papyri, but a lot of this stuff is written on sarcophaguses and walls and i've seen some of those artifacts in the British Museum for one Can we trust museums? Maybe not maybe that's completely problematic But I have seen a lot of hieroglyphs it seems maybe I've been caught up in the mystique but here are a few lines from PyramidTextsOnline.com

1:56:11 They say the pyramid texts are the oldest body of literature from ancient Egypt, first carved on the walls of burial chambers in the Pyramid of Kings and Queens of the Old Kingdom. They provide the earliest comprehensive view of the way in which the Ancient Egyptians understood the structure of the universe, the role of gods and fate of human beings after death. Their importance lies in their antiquity and endurance throughout the entire intellectual history of Ancient Egypt The volume contains the complete translation of the Pyramid Texts, including new texts recently discovered and published. It incorporates full translations and readings indicated by post-Old Kingdom copies of the texts

1:56:55 To fast forward a little bit, it says in the Middle Kingdom many texts were borrowed from the pyramid chambers and mingled with new spells. This new form which today we call coffin texts were usually written inside coffins these eventually gave way to what we now know as The Book of the Dead. The collections of spells were usually written on rolls of papyrus that is in the form of an Egyptian book Presented here are 70 Book of the Dead documents housed in the Oriental Institute Museum at the University of Chicago. These documents, represented in whole or in part all 18th Dynasty or later include seven papyri three coffins a shroud a statuette and several other engraved artifacts So I guess it's about what you consider worthwhile evidence if it has to be written in papyri? There are some examples there

1:57:51 But obviously that's the most brittle of substances on which to write, so we have a lot of wall inscriptions that are still hanging around and coffin inscriptions. At least that's how I understand it! I don't think that's incredibly controversial but either way i'm not trying to just make a bunch of counter arguments now that John is gone... That's not really fair. I did think this show was a ton of fun though and I don't have to agree with everything John says to like it It's interesting because so many people do preface their emails to me with, dude I don't agree with every guest but i do love your show. Well why do we feel the need to say that? Are we ashamed of some radical ideas thoughts or beliefs

1:58:35 If i say yeah, i like the joe rogan experience broadly. I can put it in a like category doesn't mean i don't have criticisms but there are so many episodes with so many guests who are all complete individuals i wouldn't feel the need to let people know that i don't agree with every guest and not seems like a given every guess doesn't agree with every gas is not like any other case there's a singular narrative We're just more extreme and so i think there is a bit of programming there that we are meant to be ashamed to be associated with alternative ideas just something i've noticed. I also didn't think robert shocks perspective on the sphinx was gonna be such a big chunk of this show but i also want to clarify some of that cuz i didn't have all my ducks in a row,

1:59:23 And as for rain in Egypt now, yes it says lower Egypt where most of the pyramids are located does not receive much rain. In fact Cairo generally registers less than one inch of rainfall per year with even less recorded along the corridor of pyramids however sometimes after years without rain a flash flood will drench the area regardless at the time of year you visit you probably will not encounter rain And then if we're going to robert shocks website just to read. his breakdown of his own work, he does have a pretty good summation of the research highlights. He says many people know me best from my work on the Great Sphinx of Giza The Great Sphinx sits near the great pyramid on the western bank of the Nile outside of modern Cairo According to standard Egyptological thinking The Great Sphinx was carved from the limestone bedrock on the orders of an old kingdom pharaoh around 2500 BCE

2:00:21 In 1990, I first traveled to Egypt with John Anthony West. With the sole purpose of examining the Great Sphinx from a geological perspective, I assumed that the Egyptologists were correct in their dating but soon discovered that the geological evidence was not compatible with what the Egyptologists were saying on the body and walls of the sphinx enclosure. I found heavy erosional features that I concluded could only have been caused by rainfall and water runoff The thing is, the Sphinx sits on the edge of the Sahara Desert and the region has been quite arid for the last 5,000 years.

2:00:56 Furthermore, various structures securely dated to the Old Kingdom only show erosion that was caused by wind or sand which is very distinct from water erosion. To make a long story short I came to the conclusion that oldest portions of The Great Sphinx which i refer to as the core body must date back to an earlier period at least 5000 BCE and my latest research now points to end of last Ice Age circa 10 000 BCE a time when the climate was very different and included more rain. Many people have said to me that the Great Sphinx cannot be so old, in part because the head is evidently a dynastic Egyptian head and the dynastic period did not start until about 3000 BCE In fact if you look at the current Great Sphinx you may notice that the head is actually too small for the body it is clear to me that the current head is not the original head The original head would've been severely weathered and eroded

2:01:48 It was later recarved during the dynastic times and in the recarving, naturally it became smaller. Thus the head of The Great Sphinx is not the original head In fact, The Sphinx may not have originally been a sphinx at all Perhaps it was a lion And then just to read one more paragraph here At the end he says back in the early 90's when I suggested that The Great Sphinx was much older than generally believed at the time I was challenged by Egyptologists who asked where is evidence of that earlier civilization that could've built the Sphinx? They were sure the sophisticated culture, which we call civilization did not exist prior to about 3000 or 4000 BCE. Now however there is evidence of high culture dating back to approximately 12 000 years ago at a site in Turkey known as Göbekli Tepe." So I know in both of those things that I read there are things that John would pull apart and take issue with this is just one geologist's opinion

2:02:43 but I was trying to use it as an example of evidence that isn't based on following the chain of custody of documents and also is a narrative that the official chronology keepers want to shut down. But i do admit there are some assumptions, and maybe there's not a lot to go on there But that's Robert Schock argument i just wanted to present it clearly here as an addendum because I didn't think I was super clear in the episode. But, I would have John back he seemed a bit doubtful there at the end but in the last hour we touched on some really great stuff and I would definitely have him back to get deeper into the idea of demonic origins of technology

2:03:28 and I don't want to cherry pick or overly control the topics discussed, but i think that is way more interesting than the question of if dinosaurs and nukes are real. That is just me as a person trying to curate entertaining shows obviously I also like to seek common ground and even with someone so extreme in their views I think I can do that John when he was giving me credit there at the end said that i'm trying to do the complete opposite of what he's trying to do and i think that's a little strong as i see us more, aligned in intention than he might whatever always say an exploration of ideas is not an official endorsement for me or the show we are just. Pickin brains and try to be fair about it i don't know why have to constantly say that but i do

2:04:20 Anyway if you only heard the free portion let me tell you about the plus show lots of provocative stuff we talked about, the importance of getting sunlight and grounding but also what that says about us in our environment. Also got john's thoughts on the work of anatoly from go we talked about catastrophism casting doubt on the library of alexandria that was a healthy chunk and john asked me to include a. Image in the show notes i'm gonna do that kinda shows the chain of custody of that information why he thinks it's bullshit story,

2:04:57 And then we cast a doubt on the existence of Nikola Tesla. I thought those arguments were quite interesting, i didn't expect them to be as convincing as they were and then we got into L Frank Baum that was great and it led right into a little talk about spiritual sources for technology and then we just had to wrap it up even though we were hitting on a real hot spot gives us some stuff for next time But also tonight, Friday August 31st at 7pm Pacific Standard Time is the first Hireside Chat's joint session. If you have stories or encounters to share theories and ideas I would love to hear them we can talk about whatever but i'm trying to avoid this being a Q&A or a guest request hotline...I get a lot of that by email and we have separate Q&A shows if you want to check that stuff out

2:05:51 I would like this to be a chance for people to share their experiences with the wider audience or their personal research, anecdotes that kind of stuff. I'm here all the time talking about my thoughts and the wrap ups of these shows. I think we can do something much more entertaining than another Q&A with me but we'll see And until then, I'm outta here. Hope you had a good time and got plenty of fresh ideas to maul over! Big thanks to John. I've done my part. Your move history hoaxers timeline extenders and sorcerors of scholarship... your fucking move. Oh no You see The world isn't random it's attached to puppet strings Control over everything

2:06:46 The 9 to 5 is trying to steal ya Now don't that job seem silly? Hello, can you hear me Or should I play back recordings From some spying agency Wish we were younger and free I'll be thankful when it's all exposed The vast conspiracy There is such a difference Between me now and the Denver sky Hollow from the highest high Calling out a thousand cries They'll tune you the story

2:07:44 Of everything that's been done And they'll call out deception From the web that's been spawned Hallowed from the higher side The earth is her side They'll tell you about something That no one else will Have you heard of Have you heard about the real since the wrong? Oh no, they're cartoon It's so typical of me to talk about this stuff I'm sorry That's good and well Did you ever hear the argument that nothing really happens it's no secret

2:08:50 And that the best is plumb It's doubling your time Hello from the higher side They're calling out a thousand cards They'll tell you something The elite have done and they'll call out Deception, on the web that's been spun Hello from the higher side Challenging your path And I'll tell you something That the battle's begun But we can't fight it with violence The mind's where it's won As the world, as the world Hello from the higher side They're calling out our sound

2:10:23 They'll tell you what you have done And they'll call out section Of the work that's been spun From the higher side Challenging your paradigm They'll tell you But we can't fight it with violence.