Brian Cotnoir | Alchemical Art, Ensouling Statues, & The Underrated Value Of Going Inward

00:00 The Planet Puppet Masters almost surely have a plan. There's clearly maybe something there beyond, but until you've thoroughly tested every last close just to view Find the more you think you know the less you really do. F-T-A-H-C. You're the lion too it's just don't know to what degree. Now holy bee! F-T-A-H-C

01:01 Oh, oh it's magic higher side chatters from the sunshine state. I'm Greg Carlwood and given the sorry state of civilization hair trigger attention spans screen addiction a lack of authenticity and a disparity of depth in nearly all forms of art music and film It becomes a much-needed rebellious act to take the path less traveled and cultivate a practice of appreciation for deeper meaning, exploration of the inner world and bringing forth the truly inspired works of art the numb depressed and desperate masses don't even realize they need.

01:42 It is a trope of troubled times that an aggressive authoritarian state will destroy great works and burn true art because their inspirational and emotional impact could be a threat to said system. But another path is to degrade the culture to such a degree that nothing worth burning even gets made anymore." Might we ourselves be circling around a reality of cheap plastic, mass production, endless scrolling and a cultural ignorance so pervasive as to think AI is a sufficient replacement for the greater divine artistic gifts of man? Say it ain't so. Well, today's returning guest Brian Cote Noir will not go quietly into that darkness as he has really dedicated his life to the mysteries alchemy art film and authoring books that guide the curious down a path of deeper meaning spiritual growth creativity and a much needed artistic revival.

02:32 His books include Alchemy, the Poetry of Matter, Practical Alchemy A Guide to the Great Work, Alchemical Meditations on the Quintessence of Wine, The Emerald Tablet containing his translations of and commentary on the earliest Arabic and Latin versions of this seminal text. And his latest On Alchemy Essential Practices & Making Art as Alchemy He is also the author of the Hermetic and Alchemical Zines series. Kepri Press, which launched in 2014 with the publication of The Emerald Tablet is the vehicle and portal for his alchemical work. His film work has been screened at the Museum of Modern Art Sundance Film Festival HBO PBS and other international venues as well It's a pleasure to have him back! The art and alchemy infuser deeper meaning seeker and teacher of the great work Brian welcome back

03:24 Wow. That's me? Thank you, it was great being here! It was fun last time too so looking forward to this. Heck yeah man thanks for coming back I know i laid it on a little thick there Oh that's okay But I do think it is generally fair to say high art is in a pretty desperate state And it seems to me like an observable symptom of a harder-to-diagnose social deficiency. What do you think? Am I being dramatic?" A little, but that's okay! Now is the time for drama. I mean, I don't know much about the whole full art world market gallery or these kinds of things But what I do notice and this comes out of the workshops I give talks I give things like this

04:13 Is that the vast majority of people who show up to these talks are it necessarily practicing alchemists folks interested in. There artists and that was not surprising to me i mean i practice art i do out can you things like this so i understand the deeper connection there what would i feel is that there is a thirst, there's a curiosity and that there is a need from young artists to explore this material. To have access to this material and where I see change happening and where the problem was and still is within essentially the academies right? The art schools This esoteric material it's like oh yeah! There's that if you know what I mean You know...and then there's art but the thing is

05:04 I mean, artists throughout time have always been part and parcel of the esoteric world and exploration. Pick any artist and go into their lives and you will see at one point if not throughout they've been interested in this material or exploring this material so that's where i feel is missing are explorations of this within universities except it starting to happen right There's a conference through NYU, actually I'm going to plug it. It's this October is called the Occult Humanities Conference and it's exactly for that purpose of looking at the arts and looking at the esoteric occult influences upon artists and vice versa so the fact that this is a conference has been going on now...it's like the third or fourth but its like every other year something? Its been going on for six seven years and there are more of them

06:00 i often times get asked to speak to a class at university art class about alchemy so i'm seeing the changes but for the most part it's like as you see things that's all about the market and that's where the problems come you have artists that. And I do not blame any artist for trying to make a living, all right? This is not some highfalutin... No. You should not do that you should do this." No! You do what you need to do to pay your rent and then you work in the cracks if that's where you find yourself If you find yourself in a really kind of heavy this-is-not-where-I-want-to be well sometimes there are these little cracks within that where you can find this work to do

06:43 This is generally the opinion, my opinion on it. Is that there are problems but it comes from this very narrow view of funneling artists into the art market letting them know what sells how to promote it how to do it Fair enough you know? But your missing something Right That is fair enough and historically the market for my favorite things is often pretty small so I think if your in that category then thats a good sign In my eyes And I really enjoyed that last interview we did a couple years ago and was pleased to see another alchemical text emerge with your name on it. And given the numerous books on various aspects of alchemy that you've put out in the past, what is unique about this latest one? Ah very good! What i've done is try to condense down removing very specific alchemical practice but finding the core practice so that you can then take this work

07:40 and apply to your own artwork, right? So let me unpack that a little bit because there's a lot of assumed ideas there that I don't think are particularly articulated yet. Alchemy is an art it has been called the art of arts because fundamental to this idea is that It is an overarching theory of creating...of creation This is what The Emerald Tablet is about The Emerald Table describes how creation occurs And the thing is, is that this creation that they're describing, the processes are universal. So any one if you read the Emerald tablet it goes all things come from The One right? and so mystics will think of THE ONE whether a divine deity or some point of unity or something like that but actually its really speaking about anyone right? even a little one like me

08:35 comes from the one and so when you start to understand a look at the emerald tablet this way in alchemy display. It's really about the individuals creation right and it's impacting your interaction with the world so the process is within alchemy, yeah they are about perfecting matter write a lot of practices around that idea transmutation into from lead into gold but On a deeper level, it is actually about the transformation of oneself or soul however you wish to speak of it. Now the practices involved in alchemy such as and I'm speaking of the inner practices that get engaged with the outer practices such as visualizations these types of things that you do to prepare as well as the work

09:19 work as well in an alchemical laboratory as they do in front of a canvas or script, or anything else you create. Because you're creating something almost out of nothing and this is... You know, you've taken elements and putting them together, rearranging them combining them and coming up with something that has never existed before. You've taken shit and transformed it to art And for some artists that's literal! Right? Indeed indeed And that's where I found like when i would be giving talks on alchemy and the artists were all there, it was all kind of gravitating. Well how not explicitly asked how can I use my art practice as the alchemical practice but that's what I was picking up as the subtext so all the way through is I was working on these other books and works I do include the inner practices there but

10:12 it's more tied into actual alchemical practice. So what this book does, I give some very basic alchemical practices literally making very simple equipment, but this isn't so much to make alchemical products as it is a prop for meditations. So doing a circulation you can actually see what is going on and this is what I do in the book. It gets as simple as I talk about the circulation of elements which is a key aspect of alchemy But then I give very, very simple demonstrations how you can see this yourself. It doesn't involve anything more than a boiling water and a plate with ice in it. Some of these things will remind you are very simple chemistry and indeed it is but what this provides is the framework to understand the alchemical processes and how it relates to the inner processes as you then attempt to apply it to your work artwork

11:11 art practice. And so that's what I kind of lay out the theories very simply, the practices alchemical and then i get into you know how do you observe? You know all these really basic things So if you are a practitioner of alchemy or anything else even ritual magic this will help you no matter what you do these practices will charge engage and energize whatever practice your doing And I say that not from hypothetical, perhaps maybe. This is my work for over 50 years and i'm writing from my own experience as well as quotations from sources and things like this so this is what's different about it. It's really aimed towards the artist actually

11:57 Yeah, and I just saw a lot of stuff in the book that I just thought could be good for anyone. Universally good for developing oneself in a deeper way and the kind of things that used to be appreciated but aren't necessarily so much today they're definitely not taught as commonly today you have to kinda go searching for these sorts of things but in terms of elements. Last time we talked about the system of the three principles, you know one of the foundations of alchemy salt body mercury spirit sulfur soul and this book talked about the two principles of hot cold and dry wet I don't think i've heard that broken down before in my conversations with people who engage with alchemy but

12:50 These two principles and how they interact give rise to the elements. Talk to people about this a little bit, because it is pretty interesting that so much can be broken down into just these two dichotomies. Yes, yes. And this is Aristotle. This goes back to early Greek philosophy and the idea is I think this is the human thing. We look at the world, we touch the world and go well what's underneath it? What's building this? How does that happen right you take a stick and poke it then you get an axe and cut in half. This constant opening of the world to kind of see what it is so this is what the Greek philosophers were doing looking at the world seeing that there were things going on one theres something that creates energy they called fire

13:39 right? Something that gives structure and solidity, they called earth. Stuff that flows is malleable water and then stuff that has a quick flowing movement air but what's underneath that so Aristotle has this idea that well actually there are two underlying principles hot and cold right that one axis of opposites hot cold and dry and wet And then the interactions of those things is what gives rise to the element. It's conceptually not that different from the way contemporary physics and science looks at the material world, that it's layered under each layer there's another layer of either simplicity with other layers of complexity underneath it and you just keep going down so that's what's being shown here

14:26 where this idea of transmutation starts to first show up is with this idea of the four elements, right? For instance. So you have hot cold dry wet and so if you have water which is cold and wet right If you look in the book there's a little diagram there with across a hot dry right and you see where the elements come about. So...if you understand water to be cold and wet by adding heat to it that changes it into wet and hot or hot and wet, which is air. Okay? So you've just transmuted one element into another according to the Greek philosophy This is the basis of distillation this is the basis of alchemy right here Right because if you add heat to water turn it to air when you remove that heat It reduces it back to water again If you divert that air

15:21 to someplace else, right? Through a tube and cool it. You've just moved water from one place to another now liquids have a boiling point as we all know if you mix liquids the liquid with the lowest boiling point when you heat it will come over first so what you're doing is you're taking cold and wet you may be taking several cold and wets that are mixed together then your adding a specific amount of heat for this one liquid so that it evaporates, turns to air. You draw it off cool it and it returns to the liquid again So this is right here the very very very basis of alchemical work which is a separation and purification of the elements

16:05 diagram would help and it's in the book so yes you know here I am gesturing wildly yeah well it is an interesting way to look at the world and these the things that make it up at fundamental levels and is just one i had really heard broken down before in terms of the things that are useful to people in their everyday life culture today has so much external stimuli that the process of turning inward is becoming way more rare You have to look in pretty obscure places to even find anyone talking about it. And a lot of people are completely ignorant of its value, what would you say is the value of making time and space to turn inward? Oh my God! Life?! How about life? No I mean...

17:04 We inhale and we exhale. That's the only way I could really think about it, you have a moment for the outstroke and you have the moment for the in-stroke if all you're doing are outstrokes or if all your doing is on send then you never have time for shutting down and turning inward then your not going to do anything This is actually one of the points about studying and reading material is to internalize Right so that when you're away from the material like your in your laboratory or working on an art piece right. You have the materials so internalize right because it's your idea is what you're doing you can actually see in your own mind's eye what happening, you step away from that studio laboratory writing this up where u riding the bus to drive into work whatever you have it in your head

17:55 And this is the place where the work goes. This is the place, where this happens because it asks you to start to visualize so as for you to work with your own mind interiorly and there are practices various forms of very simple meditation following the breath which I think almost everybody has heard of So if you start to incorporate that, and I break it down in the book step by step. And a lot of this will be familiar to people because there is...I agree with you that for the most part folks aren't aware of this in the vast majority. I think folks more involved in the esoteric community are

18:35 because they are looking for these things. So, they may have taken a yoga class and done some breathing. They may have taken a mindfulness thing someplace dealing with what-have you that allows them to understand how to visualize how to meditate but what's rare is okay now what? How do you integrate whatever you're doing there I mean yes it does have great benefits to kind of like chill you out keep you focused not lose your center as you're dealing with all the bullshit in the world but there's more to it When you have this material in you, even though you're not thinking about it. Even though you're distracted with other things it's working and let me give you an example of this just to show you how our mind works when we don't think it is when you go to sleep at night and you have to get up say eight o'clock in the morning And you set your alarm for 8 o'clock How often do you wake up two to five minutes before the alarm goes off? Right pretty often. How do you do that?

19:35 Good question. It must be in the inner world? It's in your mind, something is keeping track of the hours either through your own acclimation to the sounds on the street that happen at 730, the light changing whatever you wake up five minutes before which means that when you went to sleep you put it in your mind I need to get up at 8 o'clock and throughout that whole night that thought, that imprint has been with you the whole entire night working in the background until the time comes for it to engage. So if your doing that, with like 8 o'clock in the morning then you start thinking about what other shit am I carrying with me into the dream world? So there are practices where you review your day backwards

20:28 Right and then you go was that a good thing or bad thing and you got that was a good thing okay great i like that all do that again hurry me. Oh that was pretty nasty what i said her did i won't do that again better luck tomorrow kind of it and then when is happening is you can clear the day in your mind is more free than the deeper work dream So this is one of the dream practices that come which is to separate the day from the night by reviewing today and getting rid of shit. And acknowledging the good shit thats also really important right because you're not were mostly good folks

21:07 we just happen to curse the person ahead of us that's moving a little slow in the line sometimes, you know what I mean? And you kind of want to pull back on that. So this is what I'm saying these are some of the practices when you read the book you're going to go oh yeah i heard this in my yoga class or I had this mindfulness app that suggested these things to me one of the problems I find with some of the applications right apps iPhone kinda things where you'll do some inner work with or even some esoteric work with is okay for training, but it's a cheat. The idea is you need to bring the stuff inside you not relying upon it at something... You need an external prop to get started I mean that's what all the work is about It's something to focus on But if you're relying on let's say there's this idea of planetary hours right? In other words each day of the week is ruled by a planet Each hour of those days are ruled by particular planets and its cycles through

22:10 So, what is the planetary hour of now? And you could look it up. I was talking about this and oh there's an app for that! Well you're kind of missing the point then because it's about you having this inside you all of sudden being aware of this and then sensitizing yourself to it making it real It's not necessarily really real its a symbol set that your engaging in enlivening And so that's one of the things of really bringing this material in, working with it. Then when you're away from it try to see it, try to work on it in your head. Any artist does this I mean you can't help it. It's like anytime we have a problem where away from the problem your mind is spinning with it but what the alchemical practices and the meditative practices do is start to give you a structure and a way

23:06 focus and keep the mind on track without getting pulled away from things so you keep spinning deeper into nonsense, and away from the thing you're wanting to focus on. Yeah this is really interesting! The alarm phenomenon that you laid out is an example of dream incubation? Yes actually a very slight form of it Fair. Yeah, this is the thing like we know that that occasionally happens and then we've heard other stories of scientists working on a problem And then they go to sleep and the answer comes in a dream I've definitely heard stories that fit that mold for a solution or invention coming to someone in a dream but it's usually presented as

23:46 as a random thing. I hadn't thought much about cultivating that or developing it into a reliable, repeatable practice that would be useful on an ongoing basis and that's obviously something your book is about. Talk to us how one would do that personally or what the benefits would be of exercising the dream body as you put it? Aside from just great fun, right? It's like what am I going to do tonight. But it's not even so much about the lucid dreaming that we can get to this is just about ordinary dream and then the cultivation of what's known as you pointed out a dream incubation This goes back to ancient Greece again

24:28 the practice there was medicinal. If you had an illness or a problem, you'd go to the temple of a particular god that's related to this. You would spend the night there and sleep, and as you went to sleep, you posed the question to the deity right? Or your problems with the deity. You would have a dream in which the deity either appeared and revealed something to you, or the priest in the temple would interpret your dreams right? And give you what you need to do to solve the problem What people did was then to write down their solutions to their illness on the temple walls. And so Hippocrates, one of the earliest writers on medicine went around the temples and collected these and then started his body of medicine like what would work? So our early medicine comes out a dreamwork which I find really...and a very astute observing mind right? So the two together and that's the key right there! What you do

25:24 And this is an alchemical practice and you could read this exact thing in like around 400's fourth century, right? Some Greco-Egyptian text of Zosimos to his partner. And he's talking about this experiment he's working on and he describes...and this is the practice right here He's describing what the problem is I am in the lab This is going on, this is going on, this is going on, this is going on Hmm! What do I do And then he says in the text, saying these things I went to sleep. Right? That's how you do it that's exactly what you do whatever you're working on You say those things over and over in your head as you fall asleep. You pose it as a question and then you just go to sleep. And then remember your dream! If you don't remember dreams well the way to start remembering dreams is to intend As you're falling asleep to remember the dream

26:22 And then when you wake up in the morning, try not to move. If there's an image or something tentative of a dream go with it. Write it down keep a notebook and then the whole thing will come. And this is a practice of within a week or two should be remembering your dreams on a regular basis if by doing this. It's just intent. And so if you have something you're working on pose it as a problem. Go to sleep. Wake up what was your dream? Sometimes its immediate sometimes it's not Sometimes there are surprising answers. I give a couple of examples in the book of it and it's really kind of surprising when you think about it, It's like what we have inside this skull? You know...

27:04 Well, that's what I was going to ask you about. Is it inside the skull? Because it seems like the dream world...I think in one part you call it the lunar realm and It seems like it is a place-a place that is non physical that maybe you can encounter spirits in..it's just odd clearly the mechanism works if you are using that alarm example you gave its like the person is focusing on a problem when they need to get up and it's the last thing they think about, and the mechanism just naturally helps them out a little bit. you can massage that into whatever problem or important thing you want. But where does the knowledge come from? Is it truly in the head, or are we extracting knowledge from another realm? You are extracting knowledge from another realm called the library, your laboratory, other people you're speaking to, other texts you have studied and memorized

28:03 This is the input and then also just your day to day experience in the world, conscious unconscious whatever feeds in. This thing in the head right? Is constantly pattern seeking and creating right this is how we get through the world that if we didn't do that you wouldn't make it out of the door but this is it! It's like where is that input coming from If you look at the examples out of the sciences, they come from people who have put... The one example I give in the book is Dr. Hilpricht from Penn U, University of Pennsylvania early as a seriologist from 1890s early teens he was working on decoding or deciphering what he thought was a ring and just couldn't work it

28:52 Some piece was missing and things like this. And this had obsessed him for many years, but this is something the sky studying worldwide right looking at he's one of the major excavators in Iraq at that time discovered many things yet you couldn't figure it out so one day he has been working he has a dream he goes to sleep he has a dream and this priest appears in his dream and shows him because i am the priest of bell the god bill. And this is the vote to cylinder and he wakes up because that's what it is not a ring its votive cylinder, and then you remember that in this one text there's a sketch of it but some other archaeologist had done another piece from some other. And he didn't remember this but all came together as he was telling one of these colleagues

29:43 About this is college goes well of course don't you remember we were in berlin last year and we will looking at these examples. You saw that there, do you have the spook right over here look open up the page here's that image these images have been his head for like decades but it wasn't until The last final trying to piece it together that the brain kind of started pulling these things up and then he put it together and close it in there was no priest that appeared to him. Right right right he created this in his own dream world to convey the information

30:20 If he did not do this practice, if he did not study... It's not like you and I are going to look at a piece of archaeological evidence go to sleep that night thinking, ''I want to know what it is,'' and then all of the sudden you'll wake up and know. That's not quite how it works. If you read the literature around it or the experiences these folks have been dedicated to this problem for years It's like what Pasteur said, it's chance favors the prepared mind. Yes but it seems like if you say are struggling to find your true path in life your true will you could really reflect on what am I here to do? What am I meant to bring forth in the world? What is my story? What is my path and you could think about that enough and yeah! You will get answers. And I can say

31:11 In my very, very early years this is what happened. I had a very clear and very strange dream that's really funny! I was on this like near the sea beautiful spring day grassy kind of thing before the ocean and there were these little pavilion tents right just all around just like this really lovely celebratory something going on i don't know what And as I'm walking this man comes over he goes oh that one's for you And I was like, it goes basically it was like that's a problem for you to solve. Go take a look." So I went in and I opened up the tent, you know the pavilion kind of tent thing and suspended in the air and slowly spinning was this crystal but what it was... It was hard to explain it. It was both based on the crystal structure of a number five and a crystal structure of the number six

32:13 I'm like 14 at this time, right? And what the voice of guy was saying goes yeah that's your problem. Unify them and it's like okay how do you unify five and six and it's like in that I tell you start reading these two numbers start coming up for a lot of reasons and you will. It's like okay I never really understood what that meant until maybe 30-40 years later as I'm working on some things How do you resolve graphically a unification of five and six? It has to do with some geometric design elements, and it's there. But when I came up the dream came back from like 40 years ago and it was like holy shit that's right! And then I started looking back at other things as I began to understand some of the more Pythagorean ideas of numbers and stuff like that. That oh no alright something was cooking in my head

33:11 And then you'll close it with some character from your life that will play that role. What I mean by that is someone like this in a dream might show up as a tour guide, and it may be a tour guide that you may have met at the museum you go to occasionally and there's the same guy always there. As you go in they'll go oh yeah not that way this way. This is where you go okay is that Hermes? You can start finding these resonances of what role the character plays within whatever mythic symbolic system you're working within. That's another way to engage it and bring it to life. Very interesting, very interesting. On the subject of geometry, as we mentioned most conversations about introductory techniques involving meditation would be counting the breath cycles.

34:10 We've heard that before but you have this next step in the book of meditating on geometry saying that once you really start to grasp it, this is the new ground from which great invention and insights arise. Through this, the inner eye is awakened exercised and strengthened enabling it to be used in all aspects of life and work With this practice, the inner eye is purified. Problems and questions are easily seen and solved allowing for more complex problems to come forward and so the ascent begins! This is why geometry was so valuable in early philosophical practice for purifying the inner eye." Well I like that it seems like no small thing Yeah It's not a small thing

34:55 They don't really quite teach this in high school. And I think they should, because if they did, I think they'd have some very interesting students continuing on with geometry. What I mean by this and how it was actually used... Here's the thing with geometrical objects. They're not real. A real triangle doesn't exist except it does as an abstract idea At the same time it's very concrete right if i say equal lateral triangle and you know what those words mean is only one image that will come up in everybody's head worldwide. Right they may vary in size what have you so geometry shares a lot with qualities of the dream world where it is kinda real but not follows its own rules

35:44 So by practicing geometry literally on the outside, understanding the rules solving problems. This is what was done in Greece they said before you could study philosophy you needed to study geometry and that has to do with a certain logical like thinking your training the mind to go in order understand the bigger problem breaking it down into bits step-by-step all this stuff that you studied and learned in Geometry but they weren't telling you how this could work in your magical practice But once you do that, right? You know the rules. You know the basic rules of geometry by practicing out on paper, straight edge compass and pencil and paper. You're given a problem, you start to work it out as anyone knows who's played piano done typewriting any kind of musical instrument The more you practice something, the more you can internalize it And the more you internalize it, the better your practice hopefully gets So this is the thing with in ancient geometry that you would do these things but then

36:42 You're given a problem, simple enough problem. You can do it in your head I mean i think we've all had this you have a certain amount of space some people do this better than others moving objects and space in their head but its like you can't you go will that fit in that? And you go yeah that will fit in there That comes from your experience But once you move that problem solving aspect into your own head It becomes alot more flexible and fluid You can do this pretty much anywhere then Again, once you've gotten practice with something you can start upping the level and challenge of it. Think of music right? Think of practicing music learning music how to read music at each level You're moving more and more of it in so you don't really Need to study the chord progressions, you know them and your hand knows them even better, you know And then once you're at that level

37:38 The dream start to kick in because what you work on a lot starts to show up and dream with you wanted to or not and this is what i'm saying that's the point u wanna get to this is the point in philosophy i believe that. What you done is your train journey mind to be able to visualize things. Can you visualizing things that are intangible yet concrete this in between world of geometric object, Once you have that, you can start really just... I mean if you talk to any scientist, mathematician whatever a lot of the shit goes on in their heads. Einstein was famous for what he called the Gedanken Experimentum right? The thought experiments so he's doing this magical work of understanding the deep structure of the universe

38:28 knowing that it's real through experiment and well, what else could it be because this is the logical conclusion of it. But then what he does is as he says I put myself on a beam of light to see what would happen so He knows in his head what the equations are but now he brings into life In this vision and from there we end up with relativity theory etc etc etc I mean, that's no small thing. Right? Right. I've seen this principle at work in some YouTube videos where they will take a really accomplished master drummer and they will play him a song that he's never heard from some obscure genre and it will have the drum track taken out of it And he'll listen to it one time He'll have a pen and paper. He'll hold up what he did and it's just a bunch of hash marks but to him

39:23 a language or it's a framework, a crutch based on most of it being internal as you're saying and then they'll play again and he'll play oftentimes a pretty perfect rendition of the drum track for any song because he knows the formulas of music and he only needed a few hash marks on a paper to keep him on track. It's a really impressive thing to see. Yeah, yeah and that is what I'm saying we've got this amazing thing upstairs! We don't use it enough No no i mean we don't challenge ourselves enough to use it because

40:00 outsource it either to writing notes down on a piece of paper or whatever kind of digital computer stuff is, it kinda weakens that ability. I mean this is actually one of the ironic where i think funny things is i think with socrates and play right socrates was like totally against books you do not write shit down, right? Because that will destroy the mind. Right? And what he says is and you can apply this to the iPhone You could apply this to the internet It gives the illusion of omniscience while generally knowing nothing

40:38 Yes. Oh, that's so well said because I remember phone numbers from my childhood but I struggle to remember my wife's number because she is just in my phone under wife And this is the problem We ran into this in 9-11 when the towers came down and all of the communications in New York City went down People were trying to reach other folks, but they couldn't remember their numbers. That was like a wake up call for a lot of folks. I mean, I always insist upon with my younger friends and things like this, do you have your emergency numbers memorized? They're like what the fuck are you about? I have it on my phone! It's like yeah when your phone goes down when the next coronal mass ejection happens and the whole satellite system goes down... What are you going to do?!

41:22 Right, if you have it in your head any phone will work. If you only have it on your phone then you need that specific one And then if you know the letter to number combination You'll never get lost! So there's another foundational concept that you talk about In the book archetypal process of descending to ascend. It's in a lot of the great works, it's somewhat familiar to The Hero's Journey I guess Dante's Divine Comedy comes to mind but why is this process or narrative structure so powerful do you think? Because i think it's actually what we do

42:02 I mean, it's like here you are. You come into this world and you're kind of like what the hell is going on here? And you look around at the adults they're all messed up! You start figuring things out and realize oh they're messed up but there is this constant thing of what is going on here and the way we understand what's going on here is just as little... Just when I said well what is that did you take a stick in your pocket It's this idea of opening Is this idea of we're in the world and to understand the world you engage it but you engage it by, I don't know somehow opening it up. And what does that mean? You know many many things many different ways so I do think it has a direct experience from ourselves. I also think it relates to our direct experience of The dream experience Of going into a sleep state which feels as if your falling asleep

42:56 So here you have this idea of a very visceral sense of descent. And then what happens? Well, then in the whole world opens up where anything can happen and how they used to think it was is that well as the body shuts down its hold on the soul is loosened and so the soul now is free to move about. So we kind of travels around in these other areas things there's one view with it. I think it comes from this direct experience And then if you start to try to induce it through either kind of shamanistic type of activities, drumming chanting drugs what have you. And then external your watching somebody kinda fall down going into an unconscious state and come back and say guess where i was

43:46 I actually do think that alchemy is just a glorified shamanism, right? If you want to think of it that way. It's this way of descending into the world—physics is a glorified shamanism—descending into the world to understand the deep structures of the universe. So that's where I think it comes from and then we try to express it as best we can in various mediums. Dante takes the poetry and the structure of Judeo-Christian universe and goes for Yes, and where this descent to ascent process meets art is according to the book. One example would be Byzantine Orthodox Christian

44:29 Iconography, the writing of icons, the writing of a narrative in an image. And you say that not only are these symbolic representations rooted in the image but the icon is and of itself a material representation of the spiritual ascent. The icon in its construction has many layers of pigment It is in fact a pyramid built up from dark to light. It begins with the use of earth tones on the base layers and builds layer upon layer, and with each subsequent layer, the pigments used are more and more refined ending with gemstones like malachite as a right and lapis lule as the final layer each layer is an articulation of light rising out of the dark chaos And I liked that in a world of digital everything

45:18 It's fun to hear about art that not only tries to depict the divine in its imagery, but is also structured with real earth elements layered in a physical process of ascension too. And each one of those things has it's own symbolic meaning also so when those pigments are prepared each color you're working with is actually a mix of three So you do using greens, you will use an earth green. You'll find a kind of like a rarer more beautiful form of green and then you'll use a little pinch of malachite in it so that even in the base layers It's saying that the body is made of three body soul and spirit right? This is a very Christian idea goes deeper but that's what's being used here

46:06 But again, if you go and you look at artists who are working on an esoteric or have that kind of a framework. And you start scratching the surface, you'll start to hear from them that the materials they work with also have some kind of symbolic quality that speaks to them. I use the iconography as an example simply because it's actually one of the clearest parallels to alchemy and its living tradition so I was actually studying at an iconography studio here in new york city it was in the basement of an orthodox cathedral may had a studio there with a made icons. So you could go like open studio kind of thing and learn how to create, yeah i can't and from there u get the theory and a lot of it is it's an oral tradition not like its secret just like someone said who cares

47:00 Who's going to publish the book? No one cares. So you'll get this, it isn't written anywhere. Oh is it secret? Well not really! You know what I mean?! No one really cares that's where the problem is because I would say this like oh it's an oral tradition and it's a really interesting one if people go wow oh is it secret? It's like well yeah I guess Well, that's what I was saying about small markets for some of my favorite things. This is interesting! And last time we touched briefly on a zine of yours called On the Animation of Statues and i'm pretty intrigued by this old practice of building a statue and calling down

47:39 a god or spirit to embody it in order to communicate more clearly. Talk to us about this practice and how it's been used before, is it a totally dead practice? And what qualities of a statue or piece of art would increase its insolability?" Okay really good! This is exactly where the study of Byzantine iconography will kind of answer most of those questions Seriously, because this is what they talk about. Let me just back up a bit because if you look at Byzantine Orthodox Christianity the practices that are there come out of the Neoplatonic practices of theology There is a Saint Dionysus 600-500, this era or what have you who wrote on celestial hierarchy

48:34 mystical theology, these sorts of things. And in his writing when he talks about this work he actually uses in the original language the word Theurgy Now Theurgy is a neoclatonic term implying God-work is what it means right? You're working with the gods and so when you're doing an icon you're actually following the animation of statue practice This is what the animation of the statues was about. You would bring the elements together, materials together that are associated with that particular deity. You would then construct a statue out of it wax and other little things right incense music all that stuff and as I think it was the Amblicus or one of the other ones

49:21 put it like, yes you bring it all together so that everything is there but it's missing the soul of the God. So it's like sulfur awaiting the flame is the way its put right? In other words everything is ready but you just need that little ignition and thats where the practitioner comes in Now the kicker is, this comes out of a lot of the writings of Iamblichus. And if people aren't familiar with On The Mysteries by Iamblichus it's a very early Neoplatonic writing that is the source, I would say, of 90% of all Western esoteric practice So if you're wanting to read some original material dig into that one

50:00 What he says after he goes through all this kind of polemic for these mystical practices, concrete practices arguing that the mind needs a prop. At the end he goes well of course you know it's not the gods who descend to us it's us that go to them and so then you start to think about this okay so what is he talking abou? Well he's actually talking about making a prop that you can then visualize. And there are these times where it's like, oh and the statue spoke to me right? I called the spirit of the God into it and they spoke. You find these examples throughout Byzantine Christianity. I forget who the queen was but had a particular statue or image of the Virgin Mary that would weep, that would do all these things because the spirit was brought into it so there are those stories but more importantly...and this gets back to that geometry thing again

50:56 One of the more interesting works on the animation of statues is in a work by this other Neoplatonic philosopher Proclus, and get ready for the title. It's his commentary on the first books of Euclid right? So this is really geometry He's taken like the first six seven eight books of Euclid he's teaching how to do it right how to do these proofs where this is what the theories of geometry is And then he gets partway in and he goes, well you know this is all about building that statue. Then you go what? Well the inner statue with all the proper proportions right and then you go that's what they're talking about so you have this inner practice that's being revealed in these obscure texts and then you have this outer practice that is like yeah making statues out of wax and lizards and all these other things that are associated with it and you find this work in like the Greek magical papyri

51:53 these very external, kind of odd practices. Make my competitor's breath smell like a goat so I can get her back kind of thing." Have you ever read any of these? They're hilarious! It's like they're the practices but what they are used for is like oh yes let me call the divine Hekate down and Could you make this guy go away because he's really annoying me?" You're calling down these deities? And this is what Iamblichus is like, no. That's the street magic aspect of the inner work which reveals a lot about the inner work but you get to the statue thing and read Proclus, read them all. You'll start to see what they're talking about

52:37 Fair enough. Well, this is a weird question that kind of just speaks to where you all yeah well this one might kick it up to 11 Okay, just given where everything is right now and people over emphasizing and obsessing about AI art Could you see a scenario where you could program all the perfect proportions and all the right qualities into an AI, into a 3D printer let's say. And have it produce a statue that is so prepped for insoling, that it just happens effortlessly and any random Joe can hear the voice from this statute like the signal is so strong because it was built to extreme perfection or Is that still going to be empty? Because The Practitioner is

53:34 an aspect of what's going on there. If you took the person out of it, could a machine in Solastatue using the same qualities or is it fundamentally a human thing? Well by definition from the old practice, it's a human thing because it's not like putting these two bits together I mean, there are certain types of matter that you put next to each other and strange things start to happen. You know like uranium piles types of things like this that can start reactions but aside from that it's a really interesting question i would say strictly no because it would need the human operator if you're doing

54:20 what this other thing, in the past they were engaged with because it involves... It's all about what's going on inside you. It has nothing to do with I mean it does but it's more about the inner ascent is more about the perfection of the self, the soul however you want to put it The other one implies that there is an actual material level being of these deities that is outside of anything human, whether we're here or not it doesn't matter. If you put the right elements together they will show up

54:56 But I think if in that situation they show up and ain't nobody there, I think they get kind of pissed. Yeah just like calling them down for mundane purposes. I've heard that's a taboo because sometimes the gods will smack you for bothering them over something so stupid. Well that's what I'm saying it's like you read the Greek magical papyri its filled with this and its hilarious really long ritual type stuff I mean, really like make that person's breath smell bad so that they no longer love them. Well they didn't have Netflix and all the distractions are on there. That's exactly it! So there you go but i think the interesting question is this like okay if artificial intelligence actually becomes an intelligence...I don't know would

55:43 I'm of the opinion that it can't because it's just going to be a complex calculator in most cases. Well, that's kind of what it is now right? Right as my understanding, it scrapes all human content recombines it and very interesting and perhaps insightful ways. There are some things that are going on in terms of image analysis. And by that, I mean medical. I have a friend and someone else who works in a major hospital here And what they're getting excited about is, they have all this stored data images. X-rays CT scans all the stuff with different diseases What they are hoping to do is run that through some kind of an AI to analyze the images To see if there's some other little things in their that we don't know about We haven't seen analyzing that is associated with disease

56:40 So that all of a sudden now you have more highly accurate analysis of what's going on inside. There are things like that, I mean really quite remarkable but again it still kind of going from what we're putting in. Right and going back to the Ensoling statue example, I tended to think about that as like creation of a portal so-to-speak for a spirit express itself in our realm. So I could see a machine building a perfect portal if it's programmed in a certain way for those divine proportions, but you seem to emphasize that is the practitioner and really just the statue as a physical representation of a process that's more important, that's internal to that person and that's where we would just have

57:40 We wouldn't have that aspect. So it would be interesting to try because if it worked, we might have to rethink the mechanisms of what's going on there but we wouldn't really know until we tried and either worked or didn't work. Right and I don't think it would. Go ahead let's build one you know? Let's make one. Let's gamble! I got a hundred bucks, and we'll be talking to Hecate this time next year. Right? Yeah but you could do that anyway. Oh wow touche! You could do that anyway without any machine. Yes. That's the thing it's like how much are you projecting into...I mean that's the other bit in a prop kind of situation part of it is there is an investment in well

58:29 I love it, man. Another wild ride through the principles and applications of alchemy beyond just the realm of physical transmutation before I cut you loose. Are there any plans we should tell people about for your next big thing perhaps? Oh yeah! I'm working on the next zine and this is something if people aren't familiar with i think they should be...I do a whole zine series And these are available through, if you go online you can find it printed matter my own website i sell through kept repressed. But these are things that take up a particular issue or particular concept and layout all the key ideas around in bibliography

59:13 There more questions i have some ideas a place in there but they're more like hey folks im never gonna write a book on this. I don't have the time but if anybody wants to go ahead and start doing deeper research on the goal of my mom kill us on dream on time i have seen each one of these that provide that kind of trail map as it were, if you wanted to go explore and map out the territory. So that's what I do. The next one is on...I'm working on as i mentioned, it's on memory architecture and initiation And this one I'm really excited about! The bigger project that I am going to be sending out in announcement about this for folks who might be interested in it Is an audio piece It's a constructed soundscape audio thing Its called Hymn Tahecate

1:00:02 And it stems out of the work I did with the zine on animation of statues. The one on music, alchemy and music builds on that there's another zine i have called a prelude to him to hikate which is more the graphic novel aspect of it that gives a narrative through the in-between guided by hikate quoting from the Chaldean oracles. It's a very cool piece, and so what is coming out of that is an audio piece with the second scene. I'm hoping to do a flexi disc that gets stuck in the back so people can do this. If folks are interested, I have a mailing list which you can sign up through kepripress.com

1:00:46 And I only send out announcements for talks and work I do or new books coming out, or zines coming out. You will never hear from me about anything else except this work." Then I have...I always think that I'm not going to be doing another book and even say that at the beginning of this one? And then end it with well don't count on it? Yeah, I have a couple other things percolating in my head But the biggest one coming up is the music piece, is the audio piece. I don't want to call it music. It's music but I'm not a musician and I have respect for musicians who actually do music not somebody who edits and puts it all together you know? Right. Musician can be a pretty loose term in the digital age well very cool! You have a lot of irons in the fire and Keppri Press is where people can get a handle on most of them

1:01:41 But I had a good time, lots of things to think about. These are concepts that don't get discussed as much as maybe they should especially in the modern world so i appreciate you sharing insights from decades worth of your own exploration and keep up the great work take care out there man yeah thank you this has been great really love it All right, fun stuff. A little foray into art as an alchemical act and the sad state of art and entertainment today. Lots of stuff that got me thinking and I thought it was a good point that I made in the intro if you've read Fahrenheit 451 or seen Equilibrium with Christian Bale It is an element of the dystopian genre to destroy art paintings books all of it even V for Vendetta has a little bit of that

1:02:33 And it's because these things can shake you from baseline consciousness. They can trigger inspiration or emotion I thought a lot of that was hokey when i was younger, but there is truth in it and I do think that inspirational art Is harder to find today It's all corporately captured and I think it speaks to the general state of mass consciousness as well But even that Oliver Anthony guy, if I were to ask you for an example of a song that supposedly moved a bunch of people and actually criticized power... ...I'm sure that would be the one that came to mind. When I first saw it even I was a little jazzed up in thinking finally it's been so long! Nothing seems to move anybody anymore but even THAT was all engineered

1:03:27 I saw something the other day that pointed out that the first person to actually share his song was a prominent digital marketer who said right in his profile he can take anyone viral to 1 million views and all of that. Then all the Daily Wire guys shared it, and boom! He ends up on JRE, The Biggest Podcast In The World So sadly nothing really seems to be organically viral anymore if it ever was And I don't really care about viral or popular because my music and entertainment preferences have always been more of the stuff that you need to seek out. But even having trained myself to do that seeking out new stuff, it's still harder to find anything that actually gets me excited or inspired. Chris Knowles is right. Hollywood and all the rest of it is imploding. And I guess podcasts are well positioned to take advantage of that. Yay!

1:04:26 but people just sitting there talking to each other can only take us so far i'm so desperate for entertainment I'm watching one piece the live action and even that's just okay Ah, but check out more of Brian's work. Let them know you enjoyed this interview as always there's a second hour for plus members we added a lot of interesting elements to the conversation but it's up to you if you want to get into that or not become a plus member the link is right there at the top of your show notes seven day free trial to start it off huge archive do enjoy

1:05:02 And there will probably be a decent gap before the next episode. My wife is a few days into labor at this point, I guess she has prodermal labors they say if you had one the first time you're likely to have one again but it really just means prolonged labor It's rough but baby number two is coming soon hopefully here at home But I want to be able to fully dedicate my time and mind to taking care of her watching the older one being present in this whole thing, because we aren't doing it again. And last time was not exactly the experience we had in mind so expect a gap if you see people posting in comments or social media about why no new show help me out and just remind them that I'm taking a little paternity leave for maybe 10 days or so but I've got new episodes in the pipeline I'm well prepared

1:06:02 and I will get them out to you when i can. But let's hit up that meetup calendar, and then I gotta go! Alright September 14th Flame International Restaurant in LA September 16th Mechanicsburg Pennsylvania September 22nd Alamosa Colorado September 24th Ventura California September 29th Oakland California and September 30th, Columbia Missouri. That is what we have on the calendar for September feel free to add more it's all community driven and free I just want you guys to have a strong network if we need it but thanks for listening big thanks again to Brian for taking the time And I'll see ya before too long! I've done my part Your move inspiration suppressors corporate money grab movie makers and enemies of the alchemical process

1:06:56 Your fucking move. Callwood, it's your show now So what's it gonna be? Cause people will tune in to hear another new conspiracy Almost too much of We thought this was low It's bad getting worse so Where'd all the good people go They're on the higher side chats cause it's everybody's favorite show. Where'd all the good people go? He got your Mars, Golden White and then there's Crow

1:07:41 They talk this and that on the highest side Chat testing one, two Now what you gonna do? Bad news misuse Got too much to lose Give me some truth now Whose side we on Whatever you say Turn on the boob tube I'm in a mood to obey So lead me astray By the way now Where'd all the good people go? They locked them up it seems For protesting Monsanto Where'd all the good people go? They're on the THC, my favorite show Sitting down New episode to hear Wanna light a bolt but I fear the police Can you hear me? Can't interrupt me from this friendly conversation Been waiting all week for THC With the car wood There's no hesitation

1:08:53 Exposing the truth, getting to the elite. Scams schemes conspiracies and treason It's an excellent show what I need to know Where'd all the good people go? Been only getting hate and fear from all the other hoes Where'd all the good people go? Guess that makes THC my favorite show They talk this and that on the highest side, chat testing one two now what you gonna do? Bad news misused gotta give me some truth. You got too much to lose. Whose side are we on today anyway okay whatever you say wrong and resolute but in the mood to obey station to station desensitizing the nation going gone