Whitley Strieber | Them: The Soul-Body Connection, The Secrecy Policy, & The Good Questions

00:00 Alright guys, so before we dive in I just have to mention that without my normal setup in my usual place We had a couple small issues with this one Mainly just that my system that records guests from their browser missed the first minute or two on Whitley's side So sadly for me you don't hear how complimentary he was about my intro Or how appreciative He was to those I mentioned for contributing to and or endorsing his latest book But c'est la vie. To make it work, I had to just string the first few things I said together in a not-so awkward way and come in where the file starts Then my recording platform threw another error shortly after so we just moved over to Skype because its better to be safe than sorry Recording is an important part of this podcasting thing im told but we work out the kinks pretty quickly And everything about this overall really interesting and weird episode returns to normalcy

00:57 That said, enjoy! I said, sure great car wouldn't company

01:58 Hallelujah, higher side chatters. This is The Way from the Sunshine State! I'm Greg Carlwood and what we can know about the experiences of those who have high strangeness encounters with otherworldly or extra-dimensional beings either on a routine basis or a random one is actually quite a lot if you pursue a personal understanding of it all but at the same time it's not nearly enough The conclusions of experiencers themselves range from these beings wanting to warn us about planetary destruction and educate us on their role in the human story, to a campaign of extracting sexual fluids creating hybrids and even going after the human soul itself.

02:38 with many reports being so odd and foreign to human logic that it's hard to discern if they have any common agenda at all. What is becoming more clear is that we're dealing with beings that have complex mastery over space and time, as well as consciousness, perception, memory, and telepathic communication. And if that wasn't enough just add the stack of thoughts of today's returning guest Whitley Strieber that might also have something to do with the dead! And it seems like the possibilities are just as wide-ranging and varied as they ever could be. Well, I'm sure most people listening are very aware of the rich history of ongoing experiences Whitley has had with these visitors since his book Communion and its iconic cover achieved legendary status way back in 1987...

03:22 But let it be known that over the years his writing hasn't slowed down, now authoring over 40 books both fiction and non-fiction. With many being bestsellers and several adapted for the screen both big and small And most recently he has come out with one of the best books on high strangeness encounters with these visitors that I've read in quite some time entitled Them Which is currently number 1 in Amazon's Occult & Unexplained Mysteries category In the book, he reproduces over a dozen letters he received after the release of Communion from people with similar and not so similar high strangeness experiences. And unpacks the meaning of them with the understanding of being 30 years wiser and having an extra three decades worth of reflection and research into whatever it is them are! You can find more Whitley on his website at unknowncountry.com as well as on his own podcast Dreamland and I am psyched to have him back

04:18 The high profile, high strangeness experiencer paranormal bean profiler and captain of the SS Dreamland Whitley Streber welcome back to the higher side. Man, this is a real pleasure. Them is a great read and it includes a preface by Mitch Horowitz, foreword by Jacques Vallee and afterword by Dr Jeff Kripal as well as praises from people like Hal Puthoff Diana Pasulka and even Colm Keller the vice president of Bigelow Aerospace so a lot of heavy hitters and big thinkers in this space coming to bat for you It seems The commonality being that most of these are the names of people who have definitely made me realize this whole thing is a lot more complex than just some similar-ish humanoids from another physical material space ball out there. There's an awful lot more we don't know about this, then...we assume we do. We're drifting into assumptions like This is definitely alien contact and if you go on the internet You'll find all of the different

05:21 planets they come from, and the names of the different species. And we don't actually know any of that—none of it! And even if we are told by them I do not think it would be sensible to believe it for a lot of reasons." Yeah, I agree. There's so much speculation out there it is really hard to know what is true but I tend to gravitate towards the people who are asking more questions rather than trying to pontificate the end all be all answers like yourself and a lot of the people we just mentioned as

06:04 being advocates for this book. So I think that's a beautiful thing and part one of them looks at some really wild letters you received after Communion came out from people describing their own experiences, and part two is as Mitch Horowitz describes the result of your long investigation into the official lies and the political sleight-of-hand that has distorted the record obscured the true nature of the data and made an objective, urgent scientific study near impossible in the United States. Both parts are interesting but it's these letters that really blew my mind talk to us about The Archive Of Letters You've Amassed which I believe are now held at Rice University is that right? Yeah they are held in The Archives Of The Impossible as its called at Rice University along with

06:57 a now huge archive of all sorts of different things, ranging from the medium Stuart Alexander's papers to Jacques Ballet's papers to the letters and many other things. The letters started—archives started many years ago when we began to get a lot of letters and this started about a week after Communion was published. When it was published My impression was that the close encounter experience was very rare and that I would be among 50 or 100 people who have had it. And, I thought it was a book that would interest people but not on a personal level but just to interest them because it was such an unusual experience however That turned out not to be the case The books cover with the famous face with the big black eyes on it

08:01 was some kind of a mnemonic device that caused not just hundreds or thousands, but ultimately millions of people to remember seeing that face at some time in their lives. And the letters just within days began to literally pour in and I was overwhelmed! I couldn't believe it there would be three or four postmen coming up and just dumping boxes or bags of mail on our living room floor, and it was there in a great heap. I didn't know what to do." And I said, Anne how can we deal with this? We've got to figure out how to throw these out because even getting them out the house seemed impossible. And she said throw them out! We're not throwing him out. We're reading

08:56 I said, we can't read them. Look at that! There's a thousand two thousand letters right there!" She said well you might not be able to read them but i can read them and she bought a letter opener and hired a secretary and they read and cataloged thousands and thousands of letters over the next...I guess 10 years And that record, all of those letters ended up in a storage space in Texas where we had moved after we lost our cabin and Upstate New York. No one wanted them no one cared at all but Annie always said keep them Whitley keep them

09:43 they will be important one of these days, because this is the record of contact. It is the record of first contact between human beings and whatever this is. And she knew this I mean she was a really She was just an extraordinary human being. You know, the theme of my life has always been to keep things in question and it's because of something Anne used to say, Anne would say the human species is too young to have beliefs what we need are good questions And if we had lived as a species by that from the beginning

10:24 it would be a different and far better world than it is. But right now, we cling to beliefs and when others disagree with us we very often in all too often start trying to kill each other. So anyway the letters are there in the archive at Rice. And I did not pick ultra strange letters. I picked a representative sample of letters beyond anything we understand now, and certainly beyond anything we talk about in the media. Because it sounds so logical people will come up with channeled information and aliens they talked to this species that species but when you read these letters, you realize this may very well have to do with aliens. And there's something true here

11:24 And the truth is that this is the strangest thing that has ever happened to human beings. What a setup, it's like you've done this before and big cheers to Anne and her perspective and her wisdom in having you hold on to these letters because in the pre-internet world if you weren't going to hold onto something then it is probably gone And I love that these letters are 30 years old and written to you from people just looking for a little solidarity and to have someone listen. But, I wanted to bring up the iconic cover and this paragraph about the large eyes which tend to be one of the most reliable recurring themes

12:09 The gigantic eyes of the visitors on the cover of Communion triggered a flood of memories in people around the world. They also triggered awe and fear, A question must be asked when we look at these eyes are we looking at the physical eyes of aliens who have naturally evolved in that way or at something that has been designed to overawe us? Even something that is in some way part of us While it's easy to assume that such strange looking creatures must be from somewhere else in the universe, there is not enough evidence to close the question. In my experience coming face-to-face with one of the visitors is almost like encountering a living mask." And I like that phrase living mask but based on your own research and experience what do you think is under it? Is it even something they can take off or have control of? Well that's THE question of course

13:05 What is that behind that? And why does that face, why do those big eyes trigger something in us?" Because if you look back over cross-history to the very earliest times. The earliest gods when we began to make imagery of the gods about around 5000 BC is when it started that the eyes tended to be very prominent and They were called eye gods, in fact by some anthropologists or paleoanthropologists. And it's because this triggers something in us! Now why does it? Is it because we have been hardwired in some way to respond to these big eyes? Or is it something else? I've been face-to-face with these eyes

14:07 many times and not in recent years, but... Oh! Something seemed to have happened here. So I will find a place to stitch that together but you were talking about the large eyes and how they seem to invoke something in us and that maybe is by design? Well the thing about the large eyes is you have to think about why would it be that they do evoke this in us, because they certainly do. We are very eye-oriented and I think it probably has something to do with the evolution of the brain and the way we are put together. But I wouldn't completely discount the idea that someone intervened and designed us or redesigned us to be sort of susceptible to these eyes

15:05 But when you are with the visitors, you feel—when the eyes come to you they come into you. It isn't just someone looking at you it is someone inside you and it's as if part of you has gone out of yourself and is looking into you and seeing you in ways that you generally do not choose to see yourself It's an incredibly intimate experience, and I've had enough of it which is very little. I've had—I'm talking about a few minutes over an entire lifetime but those were very telling minutes so one of the themes of this book is to reopen the question not only of what they are which should be an open question but of what we are

16:11 and how we connect to them. Because there's a connection here of some kind that we don't understand, but at the same time what is so absolutely fascinating is that their minds—and you can see this in the way they relate to people in The Letters or Don't—their minds are constructed, structured very differently from ours to the extent that you might say, and I speculate about this in the second part of the book in the part on the brain. That their brains probably are configured differently from ours and very differently, I would expect. And therefore they see the world differently. This gets back to the alien issue—are they aliens? But if they are then I would just bet my bottom dollar that

17:15 are related to us in ways that are hidden from us. That this isn't just somebody from another planet who came and found us, that this is something so intimately connected with us that yes a component of it is physically different from us but not aliens in the same way that we think And give you an example of what I mean when I say a different brain, just how profound this is. If we look at dolphins, we know they're highly intelligent. We know they're almost as intelligent as we are. We don't know whether they are even more intelligent than maybe or the same. We don't know. The reason we don't know all these things is very simple no matter what we do

18:08 in spite the fact that we've lived on this earth with them for the entire history of our species anyway. We can't know what they're thinking, we cannot know what their language means, we can barely understand and not very well at all the hidden language of dogs and cats that live in our houses with us all the time! And it's because of the fact that the whole sensory apparatus and processing systems are different now If we can't understand the song of the dolphin, and we can't understand what our dogs and cats are trying to say to us then how can we expect that there would be an easy correspondence between us

19:00 these strange beings. And this is why I'm always so hesitant when someone comes to me to be on my show and to be on Dreamland and says, well, I channel the greys or a channel of the Zetas or something. I think to myself, I don't know whether or not you're telling me about your imagination or something real. I can't tell the difference. We have to take that to heart but even taking it to heart and especially perhaps taking it to heart we can begin to really see this whole experience in a different way, in a new way. Yes! Well said it is really hard to even try to approach unpacking their logic and the reason for these experiences but one of the best approaches is to go over those commonalities that we see in a wide range of experiences

19:58 Many of those themes are expressed throughout these letters. As you say, they weren't the most bizarre letters they are the most archetypal in a way. You got the large eyes mentioning a bouncy walk skin tight clothing, oftentimes silver or at least uniform across the beans in the encounter small stature and maybe one being that's taller than the rest of them that people seem to just subconsciously know. That's the leader and telepathy missing time what would you say are some of the other reoccurring themes that we should add this list? Well I think the most

20:39 consistent reoccurring theme is failure to communicate. There is a profound disparity between us and them, and their ability to communicate with us is very limited indeed. In fact one of the letters is called Visitors in the Trees, and this is a story about a whole family who starting one evening with a car turning around in their driveway And then the next day, slowly escalating until the whole family was seeing these beings—non-human beings around their property and in their trees. Now a simple reading of the letter you would think oh it was The Greys because that's what they're most of them that they saw were described as not all but most and we now should think they live in trees

21:44 But it's incredibly stupid and short-sighted. We don't know what they were, and whether or not they live in trees doesn't matter! But what happened in this experience of this family? And this is something that took me 30 years to see I've known that letter for ever since the day it came in because Ann showed it to me right away but What I didn't have was all these years of experience trying to understand this. But now I do, and I saw a pattern in this letter that the mother of the family was chosen to remember the experience and it was very carefully doled out to her in little pieces so that she would remember it. And she's taken on a kind of journey over this two-day period from

22:48 one level of strangeness to another, but carefully in steps. Because the human mind will forget high-strangeness experiences very quickly and here's why it's because when you see or perceive things hear see feel touch whatever that your brain can't identify with past references they will quickly either be distorted or forgotten very quickly, in a matter of maybe hours or days or even less. And she was taken and carefully moved from one level of strangeness to the next in order that she would not forget it. At the end of it, she saw essentially a transformed human being

23:48 And whether we're looking at a soul and its truth or exactly what we were looking at, I can't say. But it was an incredibly beautiful sort of crystalline presence kind of floating in the air very radically different from what we look like not a statue of human being at all but something very different. Is this complex message telling us that they are kind of midwives to a new humanity, that is going to be so completely different from what we know now. That we can no more recognize it than a caterpillar could recognize a butterfly!

24:40 Yes, that is one of the favorites of mine in the book The Visitors In The Trees. Just to give people a little more context because when you unpack this it does give it new meaning and you do seem to have found several aspects of patterns within what seemed like random events but as you say it starts with what they interpret as a car coming up the driveway. Later, the mother sees a woman go into their barn and she's carrying a stick and she asked one of the kids to investigate They don't find anything. They see a guy jumping off their roof and scurrying off who doesn't look quite human, then they start seeing these grays in their trees and the dad the kids they're all yelling up to him Hey come down Come down we won't hurt you like it's not a mistake what they're seeing and they're all seeing it And they think that these beings built some kind of platform in their trees

25:36 then yes, this is where the level jump happens. Well I guess there's another detail that the mother sees one of these beans that is holding something she interprets as a video recording device of some kind. And she freaks out about that a little bit, and then ultimately it crescendos with this brilliant crystal orb being and she sees a pattern in the crystal in this being that has the same pattern that was on some jewels that I believe one of the other beings was wearing what's the jewel connection? What's the importance of the complexity of the appendages

26:13 then that's very important. It was a necklace on one of the ones that looked human, right? It's a clue that this might be that same being in a different form exactly and it's an evolutionary form it's a step beyond where the being was before because the being was a woman wearing a necklace And now the same being is this marvelous crystalline entity But you know we also need to talk about something else which is the stresses that are connected with this These contact experiences are very hard on the human body. And this woman and one of her children were so stressed out that she ended up in the hospital for eight days on electrolytes because she was so dehydrated, and she had a fever, and she was really shaken up by this. The child started grinding your teeth down in the night

27:14 So, we have to recognize as we go through this that this is very stressful. Even when you're having what must have been a fascinating and extremely strange and rather wonderful experience, you're also experiencing tremendous stress. And the reason is that when the perceptual system starts taking in imagery that it can't process, you become very stressed out and your fight or flight sensibilities or instincts are triggered. And the next thing, without feeling necessarily consciously threatened, you're exhausted and in a state of post-traumatic stress. This is the reality of this type of contact which is to me almost proof that these letters are real they're not made up

28:18 Anyone who could say they were made up has got to screw loose in my opinion. But, also can you say that the letters accurately describe what actually happened? And the answer to that question always has to be the same no we only know that something happened that the hospitalization and the grinding of teeth means it was very stressful But did it take the form that they remember? That's an open question.

29:01 blank spots in the memory or the memory seems to start and stop at certain points where they don't remember the continuum of their experience. It's just like bookends on this is where it starts, this is where it ends. And that's strange because maybe that means they were taken somewhere and brought back who knows? That's what is insinuated by missing time events but to stick with The Visitors In The Trees, the other element of your insight is the complexity in the things that these beings were holding. I mentioned that it started with a woman holding a stick, eventually there's a video recording device at least interpreted as that being shown. Do you think there's some logic in this symbolic language of the things these beings were holding and kind of presenting to them throughout this that also speaks to that kind of evolution? Exactly! It certainly does and

29:57 The whole experience is intended to build in the mind of the witness, the mother primarily. To build in her mind step by step like building a wall of bricks row-by-row so that her memories won't ever be detached from this reality And they start with just a simple thing. This automobile, it's a little strange that comes into the yard and turns around and goes away. Then the next morning the woman she's wearing bright clothes she can't be missed and all she is carrying is a stick and she goes into the barn but then when the daughter goes into the barn behind her there's no one there! It escalates from there

30:52 through a whole series of events, each one of them symbolized by holding another thing. And each thing that they hold is either more provocative or stranger than what was held before." And this was what actually tipped me off to the hidden structure of this story. Because you understand, I've known this story by heart for years and it was only recently that I began to be able to analyze not only this letter but all these others and it was like a boy, light went on in a dark room! Then I thought, I can do this now. I've changed. Why have I changed?

31:41 I've changed because I have been taken along a very similar path in my life. I'm relatively good at interacting with the visitors now compared to where I was when these letters were coming in and when I wrote communion, because I've had them in my life many times." since then and thought about them and worked with other people who have had them in their lives. And I built up a reservoir of experience that I can call on so when these interactions occur, there've been a few in the past couple of years they're very very brief...I can actually get something from them! In other words, the communications make sense

32:25 Yeah, let's unpack that a little bit because I've also heard you say this relationship we have with them is probably humanity's deepest relationship period yet we still don't understand the nature of it. And in terms of your own experience, I know you're big on this meditation practice you've been doing since the 70s that you learned from The Gertrude Foundation in New York And then you have said that, when the visitors entered my life in 1985 they used the same teaching techniques that I was familiar with from my Gertrude work. So I worked with them also! I have been active in my foundation work now for more than 50 years 30 of which I've also worked with the visitors." Well what insights have these techniques and the thirty years given you into the nature of this relationship overall?

33:13 Well, the most important thing is the connection between soul and body. And how poorly connected we are and how we can build that connection over time. It takes a great deal of patience. We live in a world where you want immediate outcomes. In other words I buy a book I want to read it enjoy it or buy a video game out to play it and enjoy it. learn a meditation technique, I wanted to change my life for the better right now. But the technique that's important here which I call the sensing exercise which is very important part of the Gajeev work is also important to the work with visitors there are no short-term results there's no aha moment you have to just do it over and over and over again and I do it every day

34:16 with a small group of people and then twice more by myself. I do it at one o'clock in the afternoon in Pacific time with them, then 11 o'clock at night by myself and then usually between three and four in the morning again. And the reason I'd do it at that hour was that after Annie passed away somebody probably Annie started waking me up at that hour like punching me on the shoulder or tweaking pinching me or doing various things to me, all of which were both startling and quite amusing. And I realized that whoever it was wanted me to do the sensing exercise at that hour as well and eventually found out why! That is because it's known in certain yoga traditions as Brahma-Mahartha time – the time of the opening of the mind when

35:21 outside world is inputting the least amount of information into the brain and into the mind, and the person is open. And it has revolutionized my life in this sense that first The Afterlife Revolution then The Next Books A New World and Jesus a New Vision and now them all these books were written using the relationship that evolves at that hour, I can open my mind and listen. And all kinds of things come in it's extremely valuable. So this is just part of it. The other deeper part is that we do have a second body We definitely do! I have been privileged to experience being outside of the physical body a number of times

36:25 But the connection between the physical body and the non-physical, the second body is dependent upon sensation. If you pay attention to the sensation of the physical body gradually it integrates over years of time and this is where people fall out on this because they want to sit do this for a week and notice some changes You do it for a week and you're not going to notice changes. You do it for 10 years, you might notice little but she did it for 30 or 40 years and you do become a different kind of being slowly but surely in that first and second body become Innocence one And you become a more integrated being when you become more awake To the world around you your ego becomes a tool

37:21 that you use to live in the world. And Whitley is my World Walker, but I'm not Whitley. I am a much larger entity that has always been here and for a long time was silent but isn't silent anymore and it's because of this integration that has occurred over these 50 years of working with this exercise Yes well those are great points and even just little things like time we are so divorced from nature and the natural cycles of our world were doing this nine to five you know artificial time so we

38:02 are divorced from the insights and the mechanisms that play with natural time just as much as we don't have any context for our other body or theory of body parts of us larger than. Human parts of ourselves we have lost so much context about ourselves in our environment even simple little things that, to tackle this huge issue of what the visitors are starts to get pretty difficult, pretty daunting considering we have to go back to the basics and reestablish ourselves within our system because we are part of it. And it's a reciprocal system that seems to have different effects on our consciousness at different times and different places with all sorts of stuff that just doesn't make it into modern Western culture

38:49 Right. It does not and you know, Western culture is an interesting question it became very left brain remember back in the back as the 80s the left brain right brain thing came in and The right brain supposedly controlled one group of mental activities on a left brain another but modern Neurology has shown that both sides work together And that this whole left-brain right brain thing was a kind of fad, but that doesn't mean that the two sides are the same or that they address experience in the same way at all. They don't! The right brain is the master and the left brain is the servant but that's not how we work in the West. The left brain has become dominant in the West

39:47 You know, Friedrich Nietzsche had the philosopher of the late 19th century had a parable called The Master and His Emissary. In it the master is a wonderful leader of a beautiful little kingdom and it's such a successful kingdom that the other little kingdoms around it all want to join it but now it gets so big that the master needs to send out an emissary And the emissary, he chooses an emissary and the emissary goes out to rule the outlying parts of the kingdom. But he decides that he's better than the master and he begins to rule on his own very arbitrarily without regard for the lives and feelings of the people he is ruling. He assembles an army

40:46 and he goes back to the homeland, and kills the master and takes everything over. And then the whole kingdom collapses into ruins. The master of course is the right brain with its ability to feel with its sense of empathy with it's regard for others The left brain is the emissary If you look at our history The left brain, when the left brain takes people over they get very dangerous. They cease to care about the lives of others which become abstractions for them to use in a hopeless quest for power. You see it right now in Vladimir Putin and the president of China, Zhao Jinping I believe his name is

41:43 These are people who have become dominated by their left brains, and they will ruin the world if they can. And they do not care about the lives of others like Adolf Hitler for example or Joseph Stalin. The lives of others meant nothing to them. Nothing! Unfortunately in democracies it's quite hard to get elected if you're like that because if you can't empathize people are hesitant to vote for you Not always, and it does happen. It has almost happened here recently where a person without any access to their right brain gains power and then they begin to kill others without regard to the value of their life. Yes, on this subject of the state and governments in part two you talk about what

42:35 The government seemed to know about this stuff and about the secrecy, saying it is always assumed that UAP secrecy originated as official policy. That is not correct! Our visitors are very secretive and by their actions they have made sure that our policy would follow theirs." They have placed our official world in a position where it has no choice but to keep their secrets for them. I will show you how they have done this and discuss what we can do to change the situation." Well, elaborate on that a bit because I think people consider government secretive by nature across the board anyway—how can we say this is directed by the beans themselves? That's a little bit of a different twist than we're used to hearing.

43:22 Well, it is a different twist. And it wasn't that they managed to then went to Mr President or someone and whispered in their ear. It's what they did that caused this to happen. For example, their emergence began in the 20th century of course in 1947 but it didn't begin with Kenneth Arnold sighting of UFOs while he was flying near Mount Rainier in June or the Roswell incident in July. It began that spring when we were testing German rockets that we had brought from Germany and we were testing them at White Sands, In other words the age of the missile was beginning and the atomic age had already begun And the visitors began demonstrating the danger of this They cannot

44:23 communicate with us directly, or they would I think. And they did that by causing trouble when we launched these missiles and the reaction was great confusion because they could see these little lights that would come near some of them and then they would explode or go off course They didn't understand what was going on at all No one in our world had had any experience with anything like this before There had been a previous crash at the Trinity site, again an attempt to show the dangers of nuclear weapons by having this object crash nearby. Completely different way of thinking and communicating than we would use because it was working by demonstration. And then the Roswell incident occurred where it would become undeniable

45:26 The Trinity incident that was researched by Jacques Vallée and Paola Harris for their book, Trinity was buried. No one cared I mean they took the debris away and kind of forgot about it but the Roswell incident was different and for a certain very specific reason it had occurred within 30 miles of the 509th bomb wing stationed at Roswell Army Air Base at the time And that wing was the only atomic bomber wing in the world. And Stalin had four and a half million men lined up, ready to sweep across what was becoming known as the Iron Curtain and take the rest of Europe—and probably Britain as well. And suddenly this object

46:19 crashes within a few miles of what was then the most important and most sensitive military base on the planet. Because those bombers, and the fact that Stalin did not have the ability to stop them if they came to Russia—some of them would certainly get through—were what was preventing him from sweeping across the whole Western world and plunging the whole thing into the darkness of the paranoid dictatorship that was known as communism. But what was worse is, I can't prove this but I was told off-the record or not off-the-record exactly but I was told by some of the people who were there at the time that the secret was that the bombers weren't actually ready in other words there were a few nuclear weapons on the base but not many

47:16 And the fear, therefore would have been that if this was a Russian spy device. That if it had Geiger counters or had released people who could come with Geiger counters close to the base they would find out that there wasn't enough nuclear material there and that the 509th was essentially above and Stalin would've gone ahead so the terror was immediate in the military But then the debris was gathered up and taken to Wright Field. And you know, the people who say, oh this never happened? Well I'm sorry! The fact that that material was placed on a special airplane—a bomber that had been converted to cargo use—and flown to Wright Field means there is no way it was a known radar target or balloon or anything they have described

48:12 It was something unknown, and it was taken directly to right because that's where the Air Materiel Command was run by General Nathan Twining who would later write the Twining Memo a year later in 1947 which is also proof that we have been seeing these things in the sky for many years. General Arthur Exon, Lieutenant Colonel, was there my Uncle Mickey Edward Streber then a major was there And the debris and the bodies were brought, and they were real. And this changed the whole nature of the question for the military. What in the heck? It's bad enough they classified it and pulled the whole thing right out of the newspapers because when they thought it was Russians or Russian spy ship then when they realized these bodies were not human

49:13 It blew their minds and that's when the secrecy started. But you see, the secrecy started because of where the crash occurred and what was in the ship. Because one thing about the visitors... You know for us death is a hugely important thing it's not so important for them because they have a different relationship to body than we do They use bodies like we use scooby-care I like it. Man, and...I also wanted to ask you about Dr. Diana Posulka's book American Cosmic she had some nice things to say about them and this kind of relates to crashes and recoveries and this kinda thing but in that book she talks about how she seems to have been plugged in with some people still working on such things in the so-called invisible college

50:02 what stuck out to me was these like gifting fields in the desert where these folks who study these things seem to have kind of established that these beings will leave things for them to find quite often, quite reliably. What do you think's going on there? I mean might there be other areas where such a relationship is established. This seems quite fascinating and it seems like repeatable, and kind of something that would advance our understanding eventually. Well there's one site where a lot of material has been found over a long period of time even though it's been thoroughly combed over many times And primarily what's been found there are materials metals and other materials

50:54 that have gone into things like making ultra-hard titanium medical implants. In fact, if you get an artificial knee there's a strong possibility that the molecular structure of the titanium that's involved started at the donation site and was then patented once it was figured out, patented. And then the patents were sold by an inventor who's actually not an inventor but a representative of the insiders who are analyzing this material also high energy diffusing coatings and other things have been found there that have been used in all kinds of different industrial applications including jet transports

51:52 stealth fighters and all of those sorts of things. So a lot has been found there now here's the interesting thing about the site to me because The site is quite near an area where An extremely unusual event occurred back in the 16th century It's where the lady in blue which was St Mary of Agrida, a nun Spain was by locating to this area and convincing the people to accept Christianity so that when the Spaniards showed up, they would not kill them all. So the area it's a bit like the Skinwalker Ranch. It's got some mojo to it. Yeah! That's not quite what you would think in other words anytime you look at this stuff

52:51 If you look at it strictly from the viewpoint of technology, you don't get anywhere. Or you get a little distance but not that far because there's more to it than that. There is another level of law or physics that has to do with human soul but we don't understand the physics of consciousness and as society and individuals, we reject the soul and have been doing that for long time We don't believe in it. And because that's true, we've isolated ourselves from ourselves. We're like schizophrenics and one hand doesn't know what the other is doing but at the donation site you feel different and all that whole area you feel different and its powerful! It's not the only one there are lots of places on earth where the planet will embrace you if you let it

53:54 in a way that serves your development and your evolution into a higher level of being because Earth wants us to do that. That's not an answer you would have expected, I'm sure. No no but that does get to the heart i think of kind of what we talked about earlier of there just being aspects of even our environment have no context for. It's like a foreign language, but it probably wasn't at certain points in the past or with cultures who live more embedded in their environment they have a better understanding of some of these mechanisms and some of these places and the Earth does seem to have a consciousness Some even suggested that these beings are aspects of the Earth's imagination trying to reach out to us in a way that it thinks is familiar to us

54:47 I love that insight. I think it's a wonderful one, because I think that may very well be what they are! But then again the insight needs to take another step so are we everything here has to do with the mind and the imagination of the mind that is that we are part of the organism of the earth as it were the earth has organs life one of the Earth's organs, and its communication with its star in the world around it. It's just that this long booming conversation is impossible for us to hear! And it's the same reason that a mouse can't hear an elephant. An elephant's voice is so low and then mouses ears are simply not designed to hear sounds that low

55:49 Nor, for that matter is the elephant's ears designed to hear the squeaking of a mouse. Nor does the elephant see the mouse nor can the mouth see the elephants simply because it's too big so they can stand side by side and not even know each other exists but we're not the mouse only We have a mind and we can evolve questions And we can inquire we can build a relationship with our planet that's completely new. In the past, it was not understanding that gave them their relationship with the Earth. It was inner standing, it was more an instinct but now we can come to another level. It is as if we have taken a long journey out of the forest where we originated and have now got to the point

56:49 where we can return to the forest, but in a new way. In the past we lived in the forest like the forest creatures now we will live in the forest like angels and the difference is enormous I like that. And you used the phrase, physics of consciousness. Here's a paragraph from the book that i really like where you write about the physics-defined aspects of these encounters and the abilities these beings seem to have I think that there is at least a smattering of evidence that we conscious beings are ourselves the technology needed to accomplish these seemingly impossible feats. And because our visitors know and understand this, when they do things like disappear before our eyes, rise up into the air or communicate with thought it's not because they possess extraordinary technology

57:46 but because they are still in contact with the extraordinary technology that is part of them and, judging from our past engineering accomplishments possibly also part of us. If so they're saying look at us freer than birds dancing through your skies for all to see That statement I would think is meant to lead you a question why aren't you? Mmm! That's good and I'm on your page there A finely tuned consciousness seems to be able to do amazing things Well, we're in a situation right now. Mother Earth has been pregnant with us for a long time and her womb is full and the waters of Earth's womb are becoming turbid just like the waters of a pregnant woman do when she's about to give birth

58:41 and that is to say we're having climate change, and excessive carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, and all kinds of things like that. And the Earth is going to give birth to us whether we like it or not. That is to say, the bodies that we have now, and the way we live now will not remain. It will not be like this forever. And we will have to come out into a new world in an entirely new way The visitors are here for many reasons and they are part of us, not part of us. All these things all wrapped up together but one thing they are is that they're midwives to the birth of mankind because that's what has been going on her from time immemorial we have always been babies in the womb of our planet

59:39 and we're getting ready to be born dead or born alive. But we will be born, the planet will give us up because it must there are too many of us and we will find the planet becomes unable to support us quite soon I would assume. And what will change is either going to end a bunch of dead bodies lying around or we're going to be a new kind of mankind and a new body. And that's what I am working toward, and what the visitors are working toward, and so many people struggling at the edges of science where quantum indeterminacy melds with the mystery of the mind, or the edges of consciousness work

1:00:36 where extraordinary states and people using these other consciousnesses that are called ayahuasca and so forth, are trying to make this journey build the basis for this journey. We don't know what it means to be human because we've always been babies in a womb. And that's why one of the visitors once said to me you are very close to being human Man, they always talk in this odd prose but there's depth there for sure. And once again it's been an honor and a pleasure I have a lot of respect for your contributions to the subject and i'm lucky to be able to have you here firsthand before we go let's do the plug thing let me know uh let them know anything else that they should about The New Book Dreamland anything else you got in the works? Okay

1:03:25 This book in particular is a really fun read. The letters that he chose to cover are all deeply strange and contain a good amount of detail, and it's always been a bit tough for me to know how much of that detail to get into because in a book like this the stories are the main draw but you know I like to get deeper into the books themselves and two or three stories should be fair game In fact, Whitley himself went back and added some detail in one of the stories we told in the second hour. So clearly he likes these interviews to sound complete as well and I appreciate that! I would say for me the story with The Little Men coming out of the circus billboard is probably the craziest? I don't even think we mentioned that one of the witnesses in that story did eventually see it shoot off into the sky so it was like a flat ship or something?!

1:04:15 Again, that was part of the second hour. But you know the drill sign up for plus stop missing half the show and feel good supporting an independent platform that actually works without ads or any other nonsense but other plus show topics would be the physics of consciousness The call of the Morlock story the question of how deeply are we hypnotized by them? Is it just our whole life? The circus billboard story which I mentioned information downloads and human history lessons during these experiences? And we got into that age-old question of if the state, and the military industrial complex or the deep private nexus and by extension The Invisible College have lost the story and the materials. And maybe even lost control of the UFO question altogether

1:05:06 And that is basically a whole nother book in itself, what Whitley calls part two of Them. It's more of an historical deep dive into the nuts and bolts, the sightings, the crashes, the recovered material, statements made by various high-ranking military brass... Very dense and detail heavy and respectable in its own right! That really just means his book Them is twice as jam packed as a lot of others Plus, as I mentioned additional writing from Mitch Horowitz, Jacques Vallée and Dr. Jeff Kripal Basically some people's weird stuff Mount Rushmore And i'm sure there will be comments from people who are skeptical or not quite sure how they feel about Whitley's personal experiences I know that being a fiction horror writer makes some people question the motive to then switch to non-fiction

1:06:00 Honestly, it makes no never mind to me. Everybody has to have a job and an income But what's great about them for those people is that it's a collection of stories from others who are just reacting To communion and explaining their own experiences in part two like I said is just good hard-nosed ufology research Which to me is really impressive because I'm sure the personal experiences fuel the desire for deeper answers, or at least the better questions. And he does have some deep contacts because of communion but it is research that anyone could choose to undertake. Personal experience with visitors isn't required so in a way I like it even more because it doesn't rely on trust its just basically high level UFO journalism

1:06:52 Either way, people have been asking for more Paranormal and I was happy to jump back into the high strangeness waters with Whitley. We actually have a couple of weird ones in the works so those types of listeners will be very happy I think! In higher side news if you saw my Twitter, Telegram, Instagram post regarding the update with my studio setup then you know i'm still in limbo Fingers crossed I have legitimate fiber internet coming, but I got Earthlink to try and cover the gap. And as I learned the hard way... it is not sufficient for recording interviews It dropped out over a dozen times in two hours the one time I tried! I also have legit studio soundproofing coming But for now I have an echo issue that I'm trying to jerry-rig around

1:07:41 But the show must go on and I should probably just stop explaining myself and making excuses, and just giving the good stuff you come here for. That said let's look at the meetup calendar before we go if you're looking to make new local friends who get it always scope out the calendar or make an event of your own i see people posting on the forum on telegram on twitter on the subreddit saying, hey is there anybody in this area that would like to do a meetup? And that is just not. A very efficient way to go about it because only a fraction of THC listeners are going to see that post on the telegram on these subreddit and then have those they'd have to be local so really you just got to pull the trigger put yourself out there make the event I will read it on the air and the locals will come

1:08:36 It seems like a lot of people are just afraid to shoot their shot. They don't want to make an event and then have nobody come, but so what? You're at a bar that you picked having a couple beers! It's not the end of the world and it's the least likely scenario But here's what we got on deck May 13th We have an event in Elko Nevada May 18th one in Pensacola Florida May 19th Pearl Blossom California Also May 19th, Kuta Bali Indonesia. We get around don't we folks? And then May 21st Sussex New Jersey but there's a handful of the next events always jump in and look at the calendar if you're curious about things in your area or just make one as I said good stuff fun times with new friends and with that I'm getting out of here big thanks again to Whitley unknown country dot-com dreamland is a great podcast in its own right

1:09:32 But I've done my part. Your move, soul-seeking visitors sexual fluid extracting entities and any and all aspects of the big them your fucking move When you see weird lights outside of your door Something sits on your chest when you sleep It might be a pattern You've been through before Or you might have those screen memories Darling wait

1:10:09 Till we get some proof, come see And baby I tried the camera but i'm not crazy People can't get free from mystique grace It's getting just a bit out of hand We really just want to get back on with our days Don't care about vibrating plans

1:10:54 So honey now Don't walk into the skinny arm No, they came from the sky From out of the star Place something on my beating heart Baby this damn life is too bizarre I can tell when they're gone cause' my memories fade But we know that it's not just a dream

1:11:37 Cause they never put me back exactly the same way And the pain is as real as a scream Honey arms might be the whole essence of theme The higher side chats has covered all that we're breaking free People can't get free from this grace It's getting just out

1:12:25 We really just want to get back on with our days Don't care about the hybrid in plan But don't walk into their skinny arms No, they came from the sky From out of a something I'm a beating heart I'm shut up Baby this damn life is too bizarre So honey now

1:13:36 Don't walk into the skinny hall Know they came from the sky, from out of the stars Something on my beating heart I'm sh- Baby this damn life is too bizarre Honey i think we're on some kind of fall Baby this damn bizarre