Tobias Churton | Crowley In America: Art, Espionage & Sex Magic

00:13 The planet's puppet masters almost surely have a plan There clearly may be something there beyond the realm of man Until we've thoroughly tested every last closed chested view You'll find the more you think you know, less you really do Where would we be without THC? We know the lying to us just don't know to what degree. Where would we be without THC? The highest side, Chad Shore, Greg Carlwood and company

01:01 Alright, Hiresight Chatters. It should be no surprise to us that eccentric exceptional characters are routinely misunderstood by the commoners and that those who buck the system let the air out of authority or push themselves to the outer limits of understanding reality are typically going to be treated unkindly by state-sponsored history books add the pioneering of an esoteric movement to the mix and you can be pretty damn sure of it Well folks, as we've explored the never-ending depths of this weird world, conspiracies mysteries and the occult. We've heard many guests make provocative statements and bold claims about the colorful character we call Alistair Crowley But The Great Beast was much more than just an enigmatic magic man He was an artist a poet likely an intelligence asset A mountaineer even And an adventure in the truest sense of the word

01:48 And we would be wise to better understand and fold in these other aspects of his biography to form a more nuanced opinion that doesn't rely on legacy tarnished by paranoia and ignorance. And we could not do such a thing without the dedication and contributions of today's guest, Tobias Churton. An eccentric and exceptional character in his own right, Tobias is known as one of Britain's leading scholars when it comes to Western esotericism, a bona fide world authority on Gnostic spirituality, Rosicrucianism, Freemasonry, and other esoteric movements holding a masters degree in theology. Tobias is also a filmmaker, poet, composer, and the author of many books including The Gnostics

02:26 The Missing Family of Jesus, An Inconvenient Truth How the Church Erased Jesus' Brothers and Sisters from History The Invisible History of the Rosicrucians, The World's Most Mysterious Secret Society Occult Paris, The well-respected and often considered gold standard in Crowley Biographies, The Beast in Berlin And now, just a few short months after his latest release, Alistair Crowley in America Art Espionage and Sex Magic in the New World Tobias joins us to break down this lesser known chapter In the life of the great beast himself A real renaissance man of the modern age Scholar of the mystery schools an esoteric explorer extraordinaire Tobias my man welcome to The Higher Side

03:05 Thank you very much sterling introduction thank you i try to write but this is one hell of a book man six hundred plus pages on what amounts to just a few years and curly's life, but of course the time period has so much going on that you really need it kind of context get the full picture and you reproduce so much of curly original writing in correspondence that I really felt like i was getting a nice window into a fascinating character during an exciting chapter in history and you're probably one of the few people who comes to Crowley not over an occult or magical interest initially but actually a mountaineering interest which is kind of funny, but it's also a great jumping off point or analogy for looking at Crowley in a different way wouldn't you say?

03:49 Yes i think the thing about mountaineering is that you become immediately aware that your perspective on reality increases the higher you climb and. People who stay as it were in the valley of experience with things very close up do not have a perspective or the aspirational bigger that comes from attempting heights that you hadn't considered before so in that sense mountaineering is an allegory of the spiritual life itself which is always a climb. And if you ever feel your gang downhill it's probably because, you're misreading something finding it too easy its not an easy pass by any means

04:34 So yes, mountaineering appeals to people who are interested in pure spiritual experiences. It did to me when I was in my late teens and it was through the Oxford Mountaineering Society that I first heard about Alistair Crowley who had launched the first major attempt on K2, Karakoram 2, in Himalayas in 1902 with oscar ekenstein so that was my entry the other thing was a credit was opposed and that is what i wanted to be at that age. So this idea of poetry mountaineering spiritual aspiration and a sense that the ordinary borders where is living at the bottom of the valley as it were in a state of materialistic illusion, i felt bad in common with crazy from the age of what i suppose i'd be just 18 then

05:29 That was now 40 years ago. I've been living with Crowley for a long time now." Yeah, that is just such an interesting entry point and we know there's a lot of paranoia and rumors around Crowley and he may have been a flawed person but who isn't? I've heard you respond to some of those claims that he was an evil dark person with something in the effect of well, he didn't start two world wars, he didn't drop the atomic bomb So when we're judging the wicked men in history, he's probably given too much credit given how much true evil does go on in the world. And I think that's a fair point but why does he have such a negative image? What's behind the demonization of him? Well, I'd like to be able to say that it's just a facet of human ignorance. I mean Jesus was accused of being in league with the devil and he obviously threatened certain

06:22 interests in the world but i think there's a sort of impeach perversity to his own character which gave ammunition to enemies. Wasn't intentional i think he said at one point the more religious people are the more they believe in black magic and i think what do you meant by that was set People who don't have a spiritual perspective on religion tend to get into the idea that they're fighting an oppressive invisible force and become paranoid and overexposed to their fears. And Crowley recognized that a lot of what is called religion was based on this fearfulness, so I think he was trying to play rather too subtle game

07:10 Goading people into bringing out their worst scotoma that is the things a block there natural vision so i think he didn't mind playing the part. I have something that people might be afraid of what he thought people were afraid of was truth this simple truth scientific truths The facts of life what people are afraid of it's the thought of dying and decay and the fatal aspect of nature is what people are afraid off. Can we build up a huge amount to defense systems to prevent being obsessed with the fatality in arguably future that is all my lives so

07:49 Society likes a whipping boy and i think you have been of a christ complex and i don't want to push that too far did he was pushing himself forward as somebody who was, incarnating the site guys spirit of a new era. And in that new area and got this idea from the symbolist send paris in the eighteen eighties nineteen nineties In a world which is going to go through radical change of spiritual orientation also is that moral disorientation as well so, figures who've been associated with pure evil such as the idea common idea of the devil might also become figures of revelation. The old phrase lucifer the lights bring up

08:36 Crowley was perfectly aware of the historical reasons how the figure of the devil had become part of the culture and how it starts off quite innocently in the book of job where, the satan is called meaning the adversary is god's sort of prosecution council. And he's perfectly at home in god's court doing gods will end this idea develops and develops until by the first century has become a kind of abstract force of evil And he didn't believe in this idea that there was this concretion. Evil enough to get it accepted at all and he felt he was part of the scientific movement which would come to understand the psychological basis of magical belief and

09:22 because of his a billion humor he played with this image but i forgot very often as clever people do not very clever people hear what they say and take them quite literally, add absurdly while cruelly might have thought just shows you stupid unfortunately these police can be damaging. And of course they can be used by enemies who should know better. I mean Crowley obviously was an offense to the organized churches because he didn't accept the idea of vicarious suffering, or that redemption required the shedding of blood as in Leviticus and the theory of Paul after crucifixion that we are saved through an act

10:05 a new Passover experience where Jesus comes about. He didn't accept that theory of human redemption, he'd had enough of it as a boy his parents were fundamentalist Christians who believed in the literal inerrancy of the Bible that it was literally true literally written by God maybe through a human hand but the human hand had no will of its own or mind of its own and frankly they would have appeared to his parents that god spoke English 17th century english and This fundamentalism, this belief that things happen by the will of a god was being challenged in the 19th century by the growth of the idea that you don't need a willful deity when you've established that things run by law. And more and more things that used to be thought as God's will i.e., storms, blights on crops, illness death etc etc

11:02 i have been shown to be the product of simple natural causation and crowley was part of that scientific revolution except what he wanted to apply it too, the development of the mind and consciousness as he was interested in magic partly because you had a romantic interest in it. It appealed him against the materialism at the time but is also interesting finding whether or not you had a scientific basis as a system of mental integration And unfortunately these beliefs that he had magic was important.

11:39 went against the prevailing orthodoxies of the religious establishment and especially fundamentalist style religions. And so to them he was, of course, the devil incarnate because he was in their minds undermining the historic faith of the older understanding of the church. Crowley was interested in a new kind of religion which would be scientific and realistic and true to the nature of man And he felt that Christianity had, in the form that people heard about it in their churches was outmoded and would be shown to be unable to combat science. I would have to just hide from science or say well if science is science but religion is religion whereas Crowley was of that tradition where science and religion ought to be one because the issue is truth

12:35 And if we're talking about establishing law as the basis for life in the universe, then the law has to be totally consistent. You can't have a universe where deities are sort of playing games. The only free deity is it were in the world potentially in Crowley's view is man who does have this ability to inflict his will upon the world and upon his fellows and a lot of Crowleys thought is how he may best achieve the highest will within himself that these are subtle distinctions which probably mean nothing to people for whom life is simply about going and getting, i'm surviving in an economic system worrying about paying the rent or mortgage whatever it is but clearly was of background. Add those things taken care of so for him he could indulge his interests

13:32 as a lifetime scholar of the spiritual because he did it with great aplomb and great humor and great genius times i think that partly explains the opposition. That is how but i think he's primarily its because he's dangerous thing he thinks about life in religion and human consciousness in a way which Some people feel is very threatening and they have to hear a bit of it and i get very scared for example his famous watch would do what will has been taken constantly as.

14:09 I license to do as you please but it is not due as well just what i will, the will what he calls the true will corresponds to what is called the wheel of god in the lords prayer and i will be done there isn't a higher will potential. And that is what each individual is enjoined to discover and live through to his best ability. That is the Crowleyan ethic, you find your true will! Now if you actually look at that and apply it, you'll realize that it's not a recipe for disorder or chaos, its a recipe for right living in accordance with man's highest potential

14:53 It's no good saying some people won't do that because they don't anyway is not credit for the prisons are full of people who can control themselves at particular points. That is fair enough and you know cheers to the apple cart upsetters it's the kind of person that, people in this audience should appreciate although I know there are mixed feelings and he was a explorer and experimenter took rigorous notes about his Magical dealings and i think that's great love reading those things magic is so tainted by religious authorities which i don't take my cues from but there are two sides every coin and i wouldn't want to deny the potential for darkness but it's definitely over emphasized as you say, end to bring us to the book curly didn't spend a ton of time in america just basically three trips and.

15:44 That's all super fascinating. You spend a lot of time going over the spy craft and espionage claims made about him, largely by the author Richard Spence in his book Secret Agent 666 And when you analyze that perspective—the circles he was able to move in, the autonomy with which he operated There might be some reasons to speculate about that but nothing super concrete wouldn't ya say? Well, one's got to account for the fact that he was accused of being a traitor to his country by two newspapers in the 1920s. And those claims have had probably as bad an effect on his reputation as any other things that have been leveled at him. So when Spence came out with his book suggesting that Crowley had been from his time at Cambridge

16:30 in the occasional employ or more as a voluntary asset of intelligence services for britain you've got to look into that very seriously. The fact of the matter is that J Edgar Hoover who took an interest in Crowley in 18, 19, 19 when he was starting out with what was then the Bureau of Investigation before it became the Federal Bureau of Investigation. He could never work out whether Crowley was an agent or not and Crowley was investigated which I draw attention to in the book with the actual documentation of the interviews that were held and investigations, which took place. And they were always inconclusive and Crowley claimed guardedly because he had to that what he was doing was known about by the British Secret Service. That is true but when the British Secret Service in New York was asked about it there was a denial

17:27 But you could also say yes well of course, you are talking here about intelligence and nobody in that game is interested terribly in telling the historic facts of every single intelligence operation has ever been launched it's not an interest of the intelligence services to become pawns in an academic game what really happened. The job with the intelligent services specific to a particular period and It's not exoteric history. Some of it comes out, some of it doesn't and that's unfortunately in Crowley's case what has come out is I would say the evidence is strongly he thought he was doing a good service for the cause of anti-German resistance to what Germany was trying to do in the First World War which was to break down as he saw it this civilized values of Western Europe

18:26 So I would say, in fact there is a very important point because I think it gives an idea of the range of Crowley's activities and his brilliance as well. He did successfully undermine the propaganda effort of a group called The Propaganda Cabinet which was run by the German ambassador von Bernstorff in New York whose aim was to undermine American confidence in the victory of the allies information or disinformation if necessary, which made Americans feel that Britain would lose the war and Germany was ruthless enough to win it. And therefore it'd be unwise to support the allies. They published several magazines in New York and Crowley got a job writing for them. He wrote

19:14 what he thought would be incendiary or worse, useless propaganda that would be dismissed and that sensible Americans would realize was just garbage. But people who didn't know what he was doing... He was in touch with a senior intelligence figure in Great Britain called Everard Fielding and he kept him informed but other levels of the British intelligence operation in America were not aware of what he was doing and needed some convincing i think the proof of the pudding is in eating when he returned to england at the end of nineteen nineteen he was not arrested as well other traders, and he carried on his business and i think that of course people around a credit said well you just wasn't important enough this is absurd because if somebody's been.

20:03 treacherous the country you want to make an example to them and if he was as bad as people said he would be the perfect example of a trace it could be arraigned in prison but came back to england with full confidence that he would be indicated when we would not be subjected to arrest when all the facts were known so the story of korean intelligence is fascinating story in itself. I just say, Some more information may come out in the future, though I suspect very little. I think I've written about his objective and account of his intelligence work as he saw it can be done given the evidence at the moment. One thing I think is absolutely clear is that he's no longer respectable to say that Crowley was a traitor to this country. This is simply not an arguable position given the weight of the evidence now which suggests

20:54 at least major ambiguity there. So I don't think anyone can responsibly conclude that among the many things he's been labeled with, that he was ever a traitor to his country, that that was actually true Fair enough. And yeah, I think that you can look at the lack of consequences for his actions and make the assumption that possibly those actions were sanctioned from on high to some degree. And as a guy who's fascinated by conspiracy, I have to ask you about the Lusitania situation which is largely considered a false flag that got the US into World War One. Not only did Crowley arrive on that ship but to quote your book a bit

21:33 Perhaps the most significant hypothetical argument for British intelligence denying Crowley's intelligence role at all have been linked to this very possibility, that it was Admiral Halls' policy to let or encourage Germany into acts visible to Americans as hostile to themselves and their principles. And you go on to say that Crowley did make the suggestion at least in passing, that a German attack on a ship full of Americans be staged to draw in American support for getting into World War I. I find this to be pretty mind-blowing and it's complex because of his writings for fatherland and all that stuff but this is uh... really juicy detail maybe fleshed out a bit more for us if you could well I think read the book as well say so that right? It's a complex story and all I would say is that Crowley's claim

22:25 is that he read the German psyche, the mentality of his opponents in this thing called the propaganda cabinet in New York who were in direct contact with Berlin in the first war and that he managed to persuade them that Americans would buckle if they saw absolute ruthlessness. That rather than be roused by the ruthlessness of say torpedoing civilian bearing ships that they would actually be afraid to engage directly with a country that was that ruthless. And he managed to persuade the Germans of that was the case, of course knowing in fact, the reverse was much more likely the case but in fact, the torpedoing and the Lusitania was a kind of last straw in terms of public perception of whether Germany could be supported or not

23:20 So, he says that he encouraged von Bernstorff and his people in the propaganda cabinet who worked with the Germans. That they should do some appallingly ruthless action and that way the Americans would definitely not come in on the side of the Allies. Now I think that's perfectly plausible disinformation exercise and evinces Crowley's feeling of the psychology of his opponents but cradle was seem apparently working very much of his own that you know he was. Inventing these strategies for himself as he went along and see so the need because it was in this extraordinary position

24:01 being embedded within German propaganda. And his problem was twofold, one is to convince the Germans that he really was pro-German because they weren't convinced of it and it made him eventually do something which was quite absurd and outrageous and very damaging to himself personally. He also had the problem convincing british intelligence people that he was not working for the german so we put himself to the most extraordinary. Expose position and quite honestly i think you could only conclude it either did what he was doing for the reasons he said he was doing or he was simply mental news mad

24:41 his mind was the first be on belief now a lot of people who believe that is mine was supposed to be on belief so they wouldn't be surprised if you did anything, this kind but i personally think if you follow the evidence. through your find that he didn't behave like a mad person but he was certainly reckless and his recklessness got him into great trouble but he was as reckless as many of the new ordian, adventure memories here i was so richard burton. So richard burton not to be actor who is never night sadly search about english victorian adventure who'd gone to mecca in i think it's the eighteen fifties

25:22 disguised as a muslim the only western ever to do it disguise is a must was able to make everything you need to get to mecca any god and he got out without being discovered it was great adventure with very similar life philosophy to crowley which can read about in his phone cassida, which basically is what kind of thing amman. He's on earth not to be told what to do but find history will get on and do it and damn him who interferes with that That's the kind of mentality credit card so i had this sort of heroic image what a man could do but of course intelligence work is not based on mavericks. But then crowley wasn't paid agent she wasn't working for the secret services he saw himself as an occasional asset and that's not unusual position, foreign english gentleman to be in in the period certainly the warden period

26:16 He knew the british consulate people very well he met clive bailey who was in the british consulate new york during first meeting him in moscow, in nineteen thirteen. Wherever crowley went to always got to know the concert staff dine with them drank with them entertain them and it was through the consulates me embassies of course that a lot of information is gathered and sorted and assessed by all countries Also it should be born in my that crowley went to cambridge specifically aimed at a diplomatic career and he was backed supported in his going to cambridge by the prime minister of england, add the time so is not just some heaters made all this up is background is interest was diplomacy just decided that you thought we could achieve more.

27:03 taking spiritual road of self development. He said to somebody do you remember who the last british ambassador to turkey was to the ottoman empire and funny enough he said it's a guy who did not have sports but basically nobody remembers embassy star historically he wanted to do something great like lawrence arabia united, mainstream history then certainly of some spiritual history, people who often not recognized till many years after their dead for what they really were about. And in that sense Crowley has the instincts of a great man and like many great men he had great flaws. He was tremendous admirer Winston Churchill even had photos taken himself in World War II in a Churchillian pose with the Homburg, even managed to get cigars from Churchill's tobacconist down in Piccadilly

28:00 You talk about a man who admires the spirit of church anyone who's seen the film the recent films the darkest hour. Everything that Churchill says in that film is the kind of mentality that Crowley had all his life. It's uncompromising, it's direct and men like that are only normally called upon in a crisis because in the ordinary peacetime situation any man who really sees clearly is regarded by the herd as a danger and Crowley is one of those he's a whistleblower about life I think If you get your knowledge about Crowley from cheap biographies or from poor internet sites, you'll come to any conclusion you fancy. But I've made a scholarly study of the evidence and made it readable and palatable, I hope. And I think it bears out the idea that Crowley is an important historical figure not only in his adventuring which is amusing and entertaining and inspiring to some extent

28:58 But in his psychological and scientific theories about the nature of consciousness, which I think is where he was a real pioneer. I agree with you and it's just fascinating to me because you watch old movies or your read about Queen Elizabeth than john d and previous ages is a lot more obvious that the empire kept magicians around and that they were sometimes involved in spy craft But regardless of how official Crowley's role was, I do like seeing such recent examples of that because on the surface they tell us there is nothing too magic and that anybody who is getting into it would be wasting their time. Yet you see on the periphery people have pretty high influence who are involved in that and maybe there still some connection there?

29:45 I think the real essence of magic from crowley's point view is how to access higher intelligence you even got the word yeah you talk about an intelligent service u want at the top of your country people with enormous mental powers and perception because you are being challenged by the greatest powers of perception of your potential enemies or threatening forces if you don't have very best that's available and some more besides you are going to be out with it now for the average body in the street that doesn't matter too much there at which is all the time they're at which is by walmart you know their app which is by google there at which is by the next door neighbor managed borrow something never gave them back, ordinary people constantly being out which is no big deal that's just ordinary life we're all out which i'm not with constantly want to pay too much for something and so on and so.

30:39 on. But if you're running a state, the people who've got the responsibility of managing the interests at the state is very high and critical level need to know everything whether it's popular or unpopular whether it's pleasant or unpleasant. People in states are asked to do things that the ordinary bod doesn't want to know about never mind isn't going to just don't want to know we don't want to know what our guardians as it were doing for us so there is a certain amount of license in intelligence work and the idea of, i mean to hire mental awareness is always going to be interested serious intelligence operatives. I may be easily full too you know i'm not a lot of time was spent i think in the seventies on remote viewing and i believe we very questionable results as far as i know

31:34 And a lot of these occult abilities are pretty hit and miss, and depend on the inspiration of the individual at any given time. But magic is the idea of an organization of spiritual forces pursued in a scientific spirit according to the lights of the time I think yes, there's always appeal to certain intelligence and of course also treated with great suspicion by their colleagues. I mean i think of little heart who was a senior british intelligence officer in world war two really was appalled by some of the interest in rudolf hesse's psychology

32:15 And the use of astrological charts of German generals and admirals to try and work out what they were doing. Whereas it's been shown that in fact, the Japanese high command in World War II was susceptible to esoteric indices when planning military conflicts. Even if you don't believe me, you've really gotta be aware of this sort of thing Because Crowley's interested in magic, he is highly intellectual. He is a Cambridge man and very highly trained intellectually It's not cheap astrology or you're in for lucky day today stuff This is much more arcane and much more intellectual than academically complex field hermetic magic Than what most people think of magic which is some sort of aggravated witchcraft

33:01 So as far as Crowley was concerned, magic held the keys to what we now call psychology and spoke about psychological concepts before the word psychology has such been invented. Now most people today think that psychology is a kind of science but that certainly was not the case until Freud came along and to some extent legitimized the idea of invisible unconscious for example. Now Crowley got hold Young's book psychology of the unconscious in nineteen sixteen is one of the first people to read it took it on his summer vacation to new hampshire and realize that he said using youngsbook I reckon I can get anyone to meet their holy guardian angel in half the time, it currently takes another word see recognize parts of what was called magic was in fact a system of psychology.

33:51 and the encounter with the true self new myself which young calls individuation he recognized in magical terms is the encounter with the holy guardian angel so. Whenever you talking magic part of him is respectful of the ancient language and traditions but his mind is always on scientific factual basis that we do have access to powers beyond ordinary reason this is the essence The higher magic is accessing powers of perception it's opening the mind now anyone who studies seriously has gone through already a kind of magical discipline i said need to talk switch the levels of concentration and abstraction from ordinary life required for real study is an ordeal.

34:38 There's no doubt of it, you know including all night vigils with your pen reading complex stuff. You'd rather not be reading you'd rather be out like everybody else having a good time when you can do so I think he came to see magic as really a form of enlightened psychology Not Freudian boy He took a lot from Freud he thought that Freud was onto a lot of things I mean the recognition of sexuality is a major force in the forming of the mind This was regarded as hocus pocus disgusting filth to the victorian mind, but of course now it's everyday reading in any newspaper you know we even hear about people who described a sex addict and things like that where is of course traditionally just new senses. In other words there is a tendency today to offer psychological explanation for any phenomenon unusual from all in the mind yes it is all in the mind but what is the mind

35:34 The mind is creative reality imagination is a powerful powerful tool and we see this all around us today. Use of the word magic while it obviously can just medieval ideas merlin flashing lights this is only a chance to have magic, yes and some magic is to obtain power always wants knowledge that's what it's about like to use the word magic because he was against materialism He thought the problem with modern science up until quantum theory, which he was very interested in. The 19th century mechanistic science was simply too materialistic and didn't give enough understanding of the relationship between mind and the material universe. Well, of course, he was growing up in a time when it's finally being realized that there is no such thing as solid matter—in that sense, the Buddhistic

36:27 idea of an illusory material universe is in a sense true when you penetrate the appearance of matter it breaks down into electromagnetic forces and so on so forth if you fundamentally altered the nature of, the electromagnetic universe the material universe would appear different to your perception the mind organizes this reality into something we call the real. And we know that this can be altered, not always to our advantage." So when he's talking about magic, he's very much talking about creative psychology or some would say parapsychology but he was very much against free speculation about what these things actually are

37:11 If you do this happens that's why i like buddhism became a buddhist for a few years in the early twentieth century, is one of the first westerners to embrace but isn't because it's a buddha scientific its understanding if human existence is simply observation what actually happens and it's based on law. and not caprice so there isn't a willful deity who has to be placated lest he do something, he loses temper. You know if you read parts of the Hebrew scripture you have a deity who changes his mind sometimes and can be placated and cajole and if you pray hard enough he might come around your point of view and let you off as it were, bit like school teacher these are anthropomorphisms

37:56 Regardless of whether you are I believe in a personal god science generally suggest that, weather there's a personal god or not the universe runs on law. Not caprice we can pretty well be sure that the sun will rise in these tomorrow but we can be absolutely certain of course all our reason is based on what we've learned so far but that is also a limitation the beauty of the magical universes you remember, imagination is infinite where's the material universe appears to be finite and limited where's the imagination unlimited hand magic has been called technique of the imagination.

38:38 As such, it is worth patient and objective study. It's not something to be dabbled with any more than you would dabble with weapons manufacture or dabble with nuclear power stations. These are things of power and they're influential." I think Crowley often wrote in his writings was obscure deliberately in the tradition of magical writing which is that you cannot let too much of the cat out of the bag last it serve the interests of those who would undermine everything you believe in obviously spent his life making a case for magic has a conception and what we mean by magic in this sense is he's thinking of the idea that at the beginning of civilization, science and religion will one cult celebrated fact.

39:32 If the sun rose you could celebrate this with a ritual of thanks or something like this now how that degenerate is when the priesthood. realizes it's got hold of the public imagination and says, but if you don't bring me three bushels of grain and five heads of your enemies I shall see that the sun doesn't rise tomorrow. Is this is the power of the priesthood now Crowley was very much in that reformation tradition breaking down the power of the priesthood and restoring man's primal powers to him that's what the new age will bring is man reassuming his power over himself so talk about miss red i mean the idea that he was a harbinger of the hippies very very misleading.

40:21 He would have found the lack of discipline, self-discipline in this hippie movement. The cause of its downfall which I think indeed it was but then again you can't expect him to foreseen what would break out of California in 1966. Right, man. Very well said I just-I love your interpretation of this stuff and we've talked about the espionage aspects So let's get into the sex magic part a bit You reproduce a lot of the notes from his sex magic diary His Rex de Arte Regia Talk to us about this diary and work because I think this is where a lot of those assumptions About Crowley come in And it's actually a little bit different when you read through it than a lot of people probably think

41:06 Yeah, clearly believe that the sexual nature of man as it was linked to his higher nervous system was a magical value and he spent a lot of his life investigating how this might work or not work. And so is diaries are not really diaries they are the record of experiments which he undertook, he got the idea that sexual energy was related to consciousness through any number of sources available in the late 19th century from some translations of tantric documents by Sir John Woodruff and also from his experience in India. He understood that sex could be a form of worship

41:53 And what was sex for what's it about what does it suggest why such trepidation, why such wonder why such hysteria over the issue is it simply you know the means of reproduction or is there other dimensions to it and he was aware to some extent of the gnostic tradition that you could celebrate union with god through a union of man and woman in yoga posture of communion with one another seeing the other as divine.

42:29 And he was aware of that but he was specifically interested in the magical potential and other words could it speed up as it were the whole process had been taught ceremonial magic, in the hermetic order of the golden dawn which joined in eighteen ninety eight which is quite a long winded process to try and. Activate powers of the subconscious when you called angels or gods i think he thought that the sexual magic technique could simplify that process and in a magical ritual you aiming for release of energy at the end of it the whole thing is a bit like setting up a controlled explosion.

43:09 You're after the release of the will from the barriers in space and time as it were rejecting it into the spiritual bit like if you think about rocket going up into the stratosphere and then into the vacuum space, it's liberated from a constraints of gravity and so on through great excessive force now in traditional western magic that could be done to what they call inflamed by self with prayer. So you had to become the essence of the prayer and have a breakthrough where the will was free, and could operate on what was traditionally called the astral plane which is the causative plane in the magical universe. The idea of orgasm which is a suspension of space and time if only for a moment, and above all with the ego which binds us to the spatial and temporal universes

44:03 that orgasm itself becomes the primal lift off and release, not in a physical sense at all but as a spiritual exaltation. And that's why while the acts may appear similar, the intention and spirit of the difference between a sacramental magical act of sex and physical act as Crowley once put it, redolent of defecation. You know just to relieve now and all that So that is the physical this is sex understood as spiritual mode to union with God to achieving the true will

44:41 Right and that's really important to note because it's not just about getting off you know i mean he had a pretty high level thinking about sexuality should be pretty clear why he would want to explore that potential magically yeah i'm the cause she was also weather. in the understanding of his time with slightly different now, this been a sort of beginning of a sort of sexual revolution all that says currently halted. In many respects although people doing whatever they're doing but i think freedom pornography is not same as a sexual revolution but he was aware that it was going to be rediscovery of sex

45:23 as an essential spiritual power of man that would characterize the new eon, as he called it a new era and it would eventually overturn the old order which was sex negative. You know sex is something that has to be channeled lest it become dangerous and disrupt the social system as it was intended and of course in religion Christian religion, but also all the monotheistic religions are terribly interested in suppressing sexual drives and especially the woman. So he writes very eloquently on the liberation of women but it's not just so she can run Prada

46:05 feel which is an equal in a business setting that he'd regard as very banal although certainly a symptom of the more deeper sexual and spiritual revolution. The release of woman and the release of feminine energy for him is a glory. And that's another thing which, of course, upset the churches because they would see this as tantamount to paganism and their worship of goddesses and sexualized deities, and therefore step backwards to sort of the ancient Rome or something. But for him, the recovery of sexual freedom of men and women to celebrate their highest potential through sexuality... For him it was totally liberating

46:46 not just in a negative liberation from something, it's liberating to a new kind of human being with much more exalted sense of their own role in this life and have much healthier view rather than the suppressive view of sexuality. You know, to tie all this up you talk a lot about the art scene and Crowley's thoughts about American culture at that time. And he even had some interactions with the famous poet WB Yeats which is really interesting who seemed to hate him. Yeah But I don't think a lot of people consider those aspects of Crowley's life so it was really nice to read about what would just say about his overall relationship and opinion of American culture and lifestyle as we try to tie all this together?

47:30 Well, I think he was in America in a very peculiar period in America's history. Its first entanglement with a major world war which he believes that he'd done some part in ensuring would be the case to bring America into the world as it were and the power and force and goodness of America into the world scene his view of American culture was that it had a long way but when it fulfilled itself it would be a world winner that had the potential artistically to break the bonds of european artistic constraints and would produce wonderful things in his own time he felt, and we wrote one or two articles only one was published what was about the past american art the one about future was never published

48:16 which is a shame because he had great hopes. But he thought that American art was slavish to European art, that it was largely a copy and he couldn't understand how people who were in a country with staggering vistas like the Grand Canyon obviously or Yellowstone Park or any of the famous things but generally an epic country hadn't produced Obviously, he knows about Walt Whitman and celebrates him. But really hadn't been up to its own landscape. And of course he correctly intuits that this is because America wasn't part of its own landscape the culture of America was imposed on the landscape whereas the culture of the Plains Indians was integral to the nature and the natural wholeness of the place. The white Anglo-Saxon Protestant or Catholic who arrived in America were not part of the

49:08 in the same way and even farmers who had to work like hell or pioneers, the land was going to give them something. they were going to own a piece of land and take something from it. They weren't gonna be part of it yet, so the consciousness he was very aware when you travel across America did a great deal of traveling and noted terrible expenses have nothing once you got west of simple and away from the Great Lakes going towards the Rockies whenever man appeared in some poultry little shacks you know he hadn't been able to come to terms with the normandy and felt that the american mind was still in or struck or even dull struck by this year expense of the nation which is claimed to have conquered but really had any scratch the surface off.

49:57 In that sense he didn't feel the american spirit had become a completely american spirit yet even though there was great deal of rhetoric and still is about their great american spirit in the wonder i think it's been so traces narration to the how the west was one movie, i mean sounds great wonderful summer but when you get on route sixty six you wanna keep driving this is not sort of thing. I've just come back from Australia and it's a very similar story there where the white population lives on the edge by the sea, and where these breezes. And while there is some movement in the center in farming and so on you can only farm so much of it because while the land is grand he's also highly inhospitable

50:34 And I think Crowley was very aware that the psyche of America still hadn't come to terms with what had really occurred there. But when it did, it would produce works of great wonder. He had huge sense of the potential of America and he was one of the first people to write positively and say that United Kingdom Great Britain and America must come together to fight the common tyrannies of the world. And that has indeed happened And is happening even today to some extent. And while some people say America should keep out of the world, well America can't keep out of the world. It occupies a very large part of the landmass of the globe. You might put up a poultry wall against Mexico but you can't keep the world out there is no escape. It's not Shangri-La it's not an escape route so coming to terms with where you are is big parts growing up I think and he had great great hopes for United States

51:30 What do you would think of the situation today i think he would be as usual give a fair minded view anyway i think it's a little plenty of americans can tell you that they don't need to ask me. Turn up well it seems like you definitely had a very insightful perspective are very deep, thoughtful perspective and i really did love the book i learned about so much more than just the man alistair crowley but he had adventures in montauk new orleans, add that psychedelic summer even he came here in california which i had no idea that he touched my stopping grounds of san diego so.

52:06 Really great stuff all around. It's been a lot of fun talking to you about it I find enthusiasm and passion to be pretty contagious And it's clear that you're very passionate about the things you research and write about, and I appreciate that insight So before I cut you loose tell the people where they can get more Tobias Churton in their lives if they are left wanting more TabassChurton.com is my website which has information about me, tabasschurton.com and or your local bookshop and say I'd like to pass Churton's books published by inner traditions of Vermont they will get you if not in stock already i'm now working on my 22nd book

52:48 So there's a great deal to choose from. And you said at the beginning that I was one of the leading scholars of Western esotericism in Great Britain, and I'm going to blow my trumpet a little bit and say quite definitely that I am THE leading scholar of Western Esotericism for what it is worth in the United Kingdom! You're getting the fruits of serious hard work in my works so if bagger into come and share it. Fair enough and i definitely feel appreciative in lucky to have spent some time with a person like yourself being just a humble stoner dropout myself but you know fascinating stuff man thanks so much for the good times and the great book take care out there, thanks great bye bye

53:37 Sweet Aeon of Horus people, Tobias Churton dropping knowledge on the great beast himself. Despite this clocking in a bit short because of unforeseen circumstances I really liked it we also had two longer shows this month so it all works out if you were to read the book I think you'd see just a ridiculous amount of detail context restoration and first-hand letters and crawly content that makes you a lot less positive that he was a terrible person. Why are certain people demonized? Is some of it possibly a Christian reaction to magic in general, that it's all bad this fear response that I think is deeply ingrained in people and American culture especially even in the non-religious. We grew up in this hotbed and some of those opinions are gonna seep in So are we just supposed to think he's bad and evil because to actually look at his work would maybe offer a path towards personal power

54:35 Is there something about Crowley's work or philosophy or writings that is dangerous to the authority? Or is it dangerous for you? When does the state and empire protect us for our own benefit rather than their own. I can't think of many examples, but Tobias makes a lot of good points about well he didn't murder anybody, he didn't lead young men to die on the battlefield Although, if he was doing some spy work seeding the idea of sinking the Lusitania to suck us into World War I maybe there's something there to be critical on the geopolitical side. But we don't learn by slapping dramatic labels over a person and just saying evil or bad that sort of stuff shuts down exploration of a person and ideas And i think we should be flipping over all sorts of rocks in the gardens of what we think we know and seeing what is really underneath

55:27 You lift up the whole pot stone and you look and see, okay was this guy a genocidal tyrant? Oh yes he was. Okay we can put that one back down and leave it alone how about Crowley oh well it seemed like maybe he was an imperfect person but a respectable adventurer leader of some out-of-the-box perspectives that I think offer a lot of merit And I respect a person who plunged themselves recklessly into the exploration of magic and metaphysical, and really reaching for the game behind the game both geopolitically and consciously. Are you going to do that? If magic is real and nobody's willing to hurl themselves into the abyss and report back how can we learn about it? You want to put that person down? That's really a sacrifice!

56:11 definitely willing to completely crucify their own image and take the adventure to places that the masses just can't understand. It's kind of funny because Jesus came with a message of submission, but also love and unity... And the story goes that people cheered for his death because they were too ignorant, too brainwashed by the state to get the message! and Crowley was often referred to as the Antichrist. And I think there's a decent parallel between that message of submission, meekness and modesty and Crowley's rejection of that Christian model for more personal responsibility angle— learn and act out your will which is the message that i think it's better personal philosophy broadly speaking don't outsource your understanding of consciousness or spirit or magic to religious authority

57:01 And you could say at least in the story and the archetype, both sacrificed themselves for those ideas. For the ideas they wanted to put forward I like the Joseph Atwell perspective that the whole Jesus motif was crafted as a false messiah To get people to act the way they wanted In a way that was beneficial for the state But archetypally it makes sense why Crowley would call himself The Antichrist in a tongue-in-cheek way And you know, people want to talk about rape and kids. Look at the religious authorities that tell you magic users are the evil ones in history! Consider The Source, ya know? But as The Antichrist even with a different message he was also symbolically crucified in the realm of public relations very much so and again I think largely by people who were too ignorant to get the message We all know the masses can play the role of an angry mob who really only knows the surface story

57:58 So now they're ramming through the doors of Edward Scissorhands' castle when they really don't even understand that he's not trying to hurt anybody. He didn't ask for a waterbed! I'm saying Edward Scissorhands and Alistair Crowley are basically one in the same, and people fear what they don't understand. I'm definitely not trying to do that because iIdon't know much of anything and I'd be too scared to leave the house if I thought that way but regardless the truth about things is usually something you find when you look beneath the mainstream narrative. And if you have an interest in getting a handle on Crowley, read some of his writings first hand and see if you think he's terrible. You might! But I hope you found this conversation interesting and it is clear Tobias has a passion that shines through maybe a very Crowleyesque passion especially for mountaineering seems like they are kindred spirits

58:53 And I think if you're going to live, you should live hard. Go for the gold, reject mediocrity, think outside the box These are the tenets of the types of rebels and role models that i jive with! I don't think it's about looking for and justifying every action either like let's ease up on the judgment Let's not be so tightly wound I think its just about examining an exceptional figure who was pushing against reality and taking some insight away from that Maybe I like 60% of his worldview, maybe you like 30%. It's not about covering a complex character in one blanket. But it's more like going in and doing the reading and then finding things to say oh that's something I like! I can take that forward You know doesn't really have to mean much more than that Everybody's got an expertise take what you find valuable in their work and cut around the rest if you have to

59:49 There's so many researchers that I think are great on specific topics, but then I really don't understand where their politics are coming from. It happens! But i don't need to qualify because I think most of us here by now are completely fine with a deeper look at a figure like Crowley. I think we appreciate it. I know I liked reading the book We come here to dig deeper and look at taboo things a bit more open-mindedly So I think this show fits right in and I hope we covered...the right kind of ground I actually felt kind of proud of myself to read about how Crowley measured the results of his sex magic with that two-week window and then thinking to myself, i don't know if that's the best measure of success based on what i've absorbed about magic and results. I mean i know very little and i also have the benefit of another hundred years of study and new data and results and i'm only parroting the things that crowley had no access to

1:00:46 But to be reading something like that and then saying that critique even to myself in my head, it's like 10 years ago I couldn't even fathom having any idea what was going on with magic. I'm sure a lot of you did or would have picked up on that same thing after all the talking we've done with Gordon and that recent look at data with Dean Radin It's just a funny place to be And maybe were learning more than we think Maybe were circling in this stuff better then we think Consider your friends, parents, teachers, neighbors, drive-thru window operators and imagine posing that question to them. Hey man just kind of curious you know Crowley mentioned in his sex magic diary that he measured results by looking for them within the following two weeks after a ritual to rule out coincidence granted I can see where he's coming from but do you think that was really the best approach?

1:01:39 99 people out of 100 will stare at you wondering what the fuck you're on and if they're gonna have to call the police and brace for some kind of incident. But, you dear listener would be like eh based on what I see with the mapping of synchronicity in the study of intention maybe that calculation method really didn't yield that accurate a gauge for the real potency of what he was doing. Heh...I don't know it's just nice to even talk about that stuff And I'm not trying to stick on that one thing he wrote one time. I'm sure he considered all the angles, but it is nice to start feeling like you know a little bit more about something so often left so broad and vague right? I think we're learning here people is what I am saying But that part of the interview that I just basically was talking about I think is really just in the plush show So maybe you don't even know what I'm talking about

1:05:55 Don't be sheep till you're slaughtered for the rest of your life Oppressed, oppressed but you're getting woke You say you don't want to be stressed until the day you die Tough luck my friend Did ya get the memo? Can't you see that we're so screwed? Don't you know where are- Can't you just admit we're screwed I'm gonna- Anyway It's a skit Okay Use it and wish but we don't have a choice

1:06:46 It seems we're stuck here, but you can find nose to drown out the noise. Now use that altar and up your magic game And listen to THC You know go with the edities if you ever see Don't be sheep to your slaughter for the rest of your life Oppressed, oppressed but you're getting woke You say you don't want to be stressed until the day you die Tough luck my friend Did ya get the memo? Can't you see that we're so screwed? Don't you know where our cum- Can't you just admit we're screwed I'm gonna tell you this anyway It's okay Eh eh

1:08:06 Don't be sheep to your slaughter for the rest of your life Oppressed, oppressed but you're getting woke You say you don't want to be stressed until the day you die Tough luck my friend Did ya get the memo? Can't you see that we're so screwed? Don't you know where our cum- Can't you just admit we're screwed I'm gonna tell it anyway It's a skelly Can't you see that we're still