Mark Gober | An End To Upside Down Everything

00:00 Welcome to one of the few truly independent and sponsored free podcasts on this island earth. If you like these free first hour episodes, consider getting twice as much with THC plus and treat yourself to the full two-hour interviews as they're designed to be where things only get deeper and more interesting behind the curtain a plus subscription gets you five new shows a month in a full archive of great interviews with amazing folks going all the way back to 2010 That is the gist, though there are other details benefits and bonus features you can hear more about at the end of this episode or in the show notes where you can also find the links to sign up and join the club at TheHigherSideChats.com Or if you want to listen on Spotify sign up through Patreon Enjoy! The planet's puppet masters almost surely have a plan There's clearly maybe something there beyond the realm of man

00:57 And until we've thoroughly tested every last close-chested view I find the more we think we know, the less we really do HC lying to us just don't know HC The higher sidechats show Greg

01:40 Hi there and hello Hireside Chatters doing what we do from the Sunshine State. I'm Greg Carlwood, and the world today is so full of lies in all areas of life it's actually surprising to see that so many people can still stuff their curiosity down deep enough to never wait outside of the mainstream waters even accidentally because an interest in almost anything from consciousness and cosmology to health energy and even whatever it is they call aliens can lead one to pull on a an intellectual string long enough to see the other end is a Gordian knot of misdirections, well-established assumptions and an institutional academic arrogance that makes the person feel stupid for even entertaining any alternative information at all. And when you push through that resistance, you often find yourself so far down the rabbit hole there's not much left to do but find yourself a comfortable new home outside of the system we've been bred to serve."

02:31 And wouldn't you know it, that's exactly what happened to today's guest Mark Gober. Mark was living the good life having made partner at Sherpa Technology Consulting and Investment Group in Silicon Valley after working as an investment banking analyst in New York He has been named one of IAM Strategy 300 world's leading intellectual property strategists He graduated magna cum laude from Princeton University, where he was elected a captain of Princeton's Division I tennis team to boot. But he couldn't leave well enough alone and his curiosity into consciousness led him down the path of writing seven books from 2018 till today

03:09 An end of upside down thinking, dispelling the myth that the brain produces consciousness and the implications for everyday life which won an IPPY award for best science book of the year. And was endorsed by researchers with affiliations at Harvard, Princeton UVA and UCSF among others An end to upside-down living, reorienting our consciousness to better live and serve the human species. An end to upside down liberty turning traditional political thinking on its head to break free from enslavement. And an end to upside down contact UFOs aliens and spirits and why their ongoing interaction with human civilization matters

03:46 An end to the upside-down reset, the leftist version of society under the Great Reset and how it can fool caring people into supporting harmful causes. And an end to upside down medicine contagion viruses and vaccines and why consciousness is needed for a new paradigm of health. And an end to the upside down cosmos rethinking The Big Bang heliocentrism, The Lights in the Sky and where we live He's an interesting guy who certainly took a crash course in the big conspiracy and has lived to tell the tale. The consciousness curiosity string puller, cosmology questioner and the end of upside down everything educator Mark welcome to THC

04:24 Hi Greg thank you so much for having me on and I appreciate that introduction. Yeah i try it gets pretty wordy especially with those titles but I appreciate good branding and you really nailed it seven books in about seven years the end of upside down branding is really great I actually learned about you first in your interview with Dr. Kelly Brogan because i was interested and heard doing a flat earth related episode, and then I realized you had reached out to me so you were in my inbox already which made it easy to coordinate And like my pal Alex from Skeptico, it seems like your journey down the rabbit hole, the crack in the big matrix for you was consciousness. I find that curious. Obviously, you scaled up pretty quickly but talk to us a little bit about the curiosities about consciousness that really sent you down the full-on rabbit hole? Yeah, that exploration into consciousness initially which for me began in 2016

05:27 Was for me the biggest paradigm shift that I've had and at the time i thought it was the only major paradigm shift that i would have. I thought i would write that book and then stay in my job in silicon valley and when i first started researching back in twenty sixteen, I was just researching out of curiosity because at the time, I was a hardcore materialist. I thought life was random and meaningless and any meaning that we created was just a figment of our imagination—just a rationalization to make ourselves feel better And I didn't want to just make myself feel better. I wanted the truth and to me, the truth was a random and meaningless universe. Then I came across podcasts and then books scientific papers and declassified documents from the CIA suggesting that consciousness is not confined to our brain, not confined to limits of space in time

06:15 It might even be the fundamental substrate of all reality. As Max Planck said in 1931, the Nobel Prize winning physicist, I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness." So that was the big paradigm shift that I was encountering nine years ago now, and about a year into that research the summer of 2017 I thought to myself well i'm having such a massive shift in my own life and my own thinking. And the way I prioritize things now...I would love to share this with more people! Maybe if I wrote a book that had a scientific basis because of my background I would be able to reach people that others haven't been able to reach in the past. That was the thinking behind my first book.

06:59 And reached out to literary agents and the one that I ended up signing with his name is bill gladstone of water side productions. He's actually the one who came up with the title of the book. He said, I loved the book. The title is going to be An End To Upside Down Thinking and then he ended up publishing the book and then subsequent books which came later. Because of his experience in life and in publishing, he said there will be more here. He used to ask me Mark what next? And I'd say, I don't really know. I can't imagine that would be a topic that I would have enough interest into want to go through the book writing process again but it But it wasn't until I left my firm at the end of 2019, early 2020. At that time, I'd made it to Partner. Had the first book out and then to Upside Down Thinking and then I had a podcast series called Where Is My Mind? It's still available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It's just eight episodes sort of like an audio docuseries on the same topic

07:49 near-death experiences, psychic phenomena and the scientific evidence for those things. So I'm sitting there still interested in these sorts of topics—what's the nature of reality? Who are we? Why are we here? And then I was still going into client meetings and for so many years at that time i had kept one fit professional door, one foot in this more existential metaphysical door. And I couldn't maintain that. I was feeling a real sense of anxiety in my body when I went into a space that I wasn't quite as passionate about and made the decision which at the time probably sounded crazy to people around me, to leave my firm but not having another job. So it wasn't like I was going to a competitor and didn't really know what I would do next. Although when I made the decision to leave my firm, the idea for book number two came in, An End To Upside Down Living, which I then wrote pretty quickly thereafter and then everything happened in 2020 which led me into politics and medicine and all of the other topics you mentioned

08:44 That is a great summary. I was going to ask you why quit when you could really just write books on the side, but if your heart's not in it that is something I definitely understand It can become an obsession and then a profession And here we both are Now I do find your background to be pretty curious You graduated high in your class from Princeton, you worked in banking and New York and a technology investment firm in Silicon Valley. I mean this is the pipeline that most conspiracy folks are most skeptical of you look at the major movers and shakers of the world than it's always Princeton Harvard Yale

09:23 These are the people that are like groomed to keep the big machine kind of running. This is where kinda all the academic boxes that you challenge in these books are crafted and reinforced with the experts telling the rest of us how it is and what we know about reality, how do you look at some of that stuff? In retrospect with your new level of awareness I was pretty brainwashed and I had no idea at the time many of my friends colleagues peers who come from that background. What I find is that they find it too hard to believe that the experts could be wrong because of the respect for an MD or a PhD, or people who have spent a long time in a certain career academic track. They just think Mark what you're doing? It can't be true because the experts just couldn't be wrong these people are too smart and what I'm finding is that many people with backgrounds similar to mine aren't necessarily in on the conspiracy so to speak but they are parroting the narrative they've been taught

10:25 and they haven't challenged the fundamental assumptions. So I've been asking myself this very question, Greg of like am I crazy here? And what's the mechanism behind these deceptions? And I do think there is some intentional deception that must go on at high levels of society but there's also a lot of innocent propagation where people are just continuing to spout out a narrative because they've been told it's true by people they believe to be credible. And I don't know what the split is of how many people are purposely propagating the narrative, and I think it's metaphysical ultimately. I think there are dark forces that people are either tapping into intentionally or unintentionally but there's a lot of just conformity that's responsible for the world we see. Yes! I'm glad you said that cause I totally agree and... There's no doubt some level of parroting

11:17 There also has to be someone there initially parodying who set this all up to be deceptive because as you've said, like when you started It's even in the books, like a bit of a nihilist. A bit of nothing really matters I'm an insignificant speck in a meaningless universe when I die, so let's just get the bag and move on and make life comfortable there is nothing greater than myself Even me when I was an atheist would see these films where people died for ideas bigger that themselves what a sucker

11:53 Because your life is really all there is. And now obviously I've graduated to believe that we go on and you know, there there is something about morality that supersedes like how many breaths you get in this round of your life but it is curious right when we're thinking about all these boxes The narratives crafted around all the scientific subject matter, all tilt a person's orientation towards nihilism. Nothing really matters and away from consciousness and this empowerment that you would say that a person like David Icke gives when they say you are

12:29 fractal of consciousness, having a human experience. It's just you can tell there's intention there because otherwise some of these areas wouldn't be so in sync to lead someone to feel insignificant and meaningless like to me I agree with you and the premise of the books which is that is a bit of the agenda is to just make us feel like that There's an interview that Alex Karras did on Skeptico Podcast with Mario Beauregard. He is a neuroscientist in the field of consciousness, but he studies spiritual phenomena and what he said on Alex' show is that he was told by the head of a prominent neurological institute in Canada this woman said to him as long as I'm alive you'll never be able to study spiritual phenomena And then he continued and said this is clearly social engineering it's dark versus light

13:16 And that really hit home for me is that there are forces involved here, individuals with a lot of power who have an ability to steer things. I've seen this now in many areas but for me interestingly it started in my career. I worked in the field of intellectual property and Silicon Valley so I worked with large and small companies that innovated and then protected those innovations with patents. And I saw what happened especially to smaller companies Who in my view were stolen from by bigger companies and the bigger companies didn't really care and then they just produce products on the basis of those innovations. Basically they said sue me and then you get to court and good luck in court interpreting a patent is complex documents where your reinterpreting the meaning of words in front of the jury,

14:00 And I've even seen a judge overturned jury verdict. And you start to wonder what are the forces at play there? Often, the media gets involved where there's a narrative against the small company. The small company gets called a patent troll even if it's a legitimate innovator. So I saw these patterns firsthand and the injustice that I remember even as an nihilist being really worked up about that some of my most... My favorite clients were the ones that I thought innovated and were disenfranchised And that dynamic that I saw professionally, we see it in academia. We see it all over the place. Yeah and I knew then about your background and I was gonna tell you that I think I got your next book It's The End of Upside-Down Energy because there is a long history of people discovering exotic energy zero point energy over unity devices

14:51 Ether-based physics, these sorts of things. You touch on them in some of the books but Stanley Meyer had a car engine that ran on water These things that can run on more abundant energy sources. There's a big conspiracy that the true motivation behind prohibition was not to keep people from drinking, it was to keep people from using alcohol as fuel because there were alcohol stills on a lot of farms and they'd run their tractors on it and all kinds of stuff in the oil guys were like Fuck that we got to control that it's just interesting with your background in patents and knowing a little bit about that because One of the angles is that the patent system was set up? To catch these people when they do create an over unity device or an anti-gravitic crash

15:38 and they think they're the first one, they go and they file a patent. And then that sends up a red flag and then they get visited by guys in suits and either give up the patent to CIA or just go missing or quit the field but But you could definitely write a full book on the implications of the other stuff that you write about, like energy and physics and cosmology. That stuff does have industrial applications, and those are things that have been shut down. And I think a big part of the ideological conspiracy to get us thinking one way is to keep us from going down those roads some people have gone down. Absolutely!

16:15 What I learned in my career is that if you go up against a big industry, they have the money and the ability to shut you down. And good luck going up against them even in the court system where it's supposed to be objective." So, I totally agree with you and the more I've researched and I know you have as well we see this everywhere in the world. It sort of makes sense to me that there is a mechanism by which we could be kept in ignorance by a small number of very powerful individuals. If we jump back to the first book or really the first two because they do kind of complement each other...I know you get into Psi Effects and Extended States of Consciousness and NDEs and the kids who have memories of past lives And I've also heard you say in previous interviews that you found a lot of parallels between COVID

16:58 research and consciousness research because COVID obviously is a fresh memory for everybody. There wasn't a consensus, there was an engineered illusion of consensus through mainstream media but there were a lot of other credible experts who are like I'm looking at this in different way and those voices just weren't heard so when you say there's a parallel in consciousness research talk to us a little bit about that what are some of the big mind blowers that when you stumbled across them in these first two books Like You know they really can change your life because i think that is less known to people listening that there's the same kind of engineering of consensus when it comes to consciousness studies. First i was stunned to learn that there is a large body of peer reviewed research, suggesting that psychic phenomena are real at least statistically speaking i was blown away by that as someone coming from the mainstream and i really trusted the pure view process how could these papers exist

17:57 And we weren't told about it. I remember one of my buddies when i wrote my first book and end upside down thinking the manuscript pre publication, I sent a few friends one of them comes from very mainstream background any sound me down afterwards is that mark on your friend you cannot publish this but people are gonna think you're crazy And I said, why? Explain this to me. He said the statistical evidence you're citing here is too good it can't be real if this stuff were real everyone would know about it by now You're being deceived in some way Now I'm on the board of The Institute of Noetic Sciences which has been around for over 50 years studying these phenomena fifty years of peer-reviewed research looking into this stuff and having worked with the scientists and get and I get to see the dynamic within the peer review process and then my podcast Where's My Mind I interviewed a lot of these scientists

18:40 there is a real push by the establishment to suppress research that challenges materialism or physicalism. The idea that consciousness comes from the brain, or more generally, all processes in the world come from matter including consciousness. So if you submit a paper to a journal that says telepathic abilities are real where the mind can affect physical reality, people can send their minds out far away into space and time and accurately perceive things or if that the body can know things before they happen, i.e., precognition or pre-sentiment, things like that. They'll say we're just not even going to go there so we're gonna reject the paper not because the science is bad but what's happened in recent years is more and more of these papers have started slip through

19:25 So there's a 2018 paper by Dr. Edsel Cardina from Lund University in Sweden, an American psychologist... This is the official peer-reviewed academic journal of the American Psychological Association and there's a recent follow on paper that came out in 2025 in the International Review of Psychiatry so these are two very prominent journals and he's aggregating the statistical evidence for all these phenomena over many decades and they've approved the papers That blew me away And I saw both the dynamic where many papers were rejected, which is why there aren't as many papers as we should have. But the fact that some have made it through was mind-blowing to me. Point number one. Then also other phenomena like near death experiences and the fact that the University of Virginia has been studying this stuff for over 50 years

20:13 Psychiatrists are saying, hmmm we can't explain these examples of an expanded consciousness when there's little or no brain functioning with traditional neuroscience. And perhaps it is possible that consciousness functions independently of the brain as Dr Bruce Grayson from the University of Virginia told me for my podcast Where Is My Mind? We're left with this paradox that at a time when the brain isn't functioning The mind is functioning better than ever So I'm coming across these credible researchers who are saying things that contradict my worldview. And then the last one I'll mention is that Princeton had a lab for nearly 30 years, the pair lab, the Princeton engineering anomalies research lab run by the former dean of engineering studying psychic phenomena like remote viewing which is when people send their mind out and can see things far away in space and time which has been validated by the US government and declassified documents

21:09 They also studied mind-matter interactions where people use their mind to affect a random number generator machine. So this is a machine that spits out ones and zeros in a totally random fashion, and over a long period of time it's 50% ones and 50% zeroes because it's a random number generator what Dr. John and his colleagues have asked people to do is alter the machines with their mind, make it produce more ones than zeros and statistically speaking they're able to do so repeatedly. And this happens on a worldwide scale as well where you set up these machines all over the world and when there's a major event that affects people's emotions, the machine starts to behave non-randomly including 9 11 Princess Diana's death and so forth. So the point here is that there are credible people studying these phenomena

21:52 And I never heard about it. So to your question, what's going on? There has been a real suppression of this stuff and people either have to leave academia like many the scientists and ions and otherwise or you have it in anomaly like the University of Virginia Dr in stevenson was a very prominent scientist late sixty so he was allowed to have this division of perceptual studies were dr robert john at princeton he was so highly credible you had a lab there and many people didn't like it princeton but it was allowed to do it and its kept very hush hush preach man you know your stuff and it is kinda funny because on one level i think this stuff.

22:27 It seems kind of mild to a lot of people when they think it's much more provocative to look at Sandy Hook or the Harvest Festival shooting, 9-11 and this kind of stuff. Or what's going on with Adrenochrome and rituals? Who are the elite really talking to that stuff matters and it is relevant But it's almost like those people are focused on one scene in a play and you're trying to be like, look at this theater. We're in this, you know, your questions are really much bigger and they do have some wild implications. I'm curious about a single example that you point to when people doubt this stuff when you start to get into these conversations? I know one example might be from a previous interview, you talked about a guy who

23:13 had four near-death experiences. I can't recall his name right now, but basically the same thing happened every time Yeah, his name is Daniel Brinkley and I interviewed him for my podcast Where Is My Mind? Episode six is all about this phenomenon he experienced. It's called the life review where he relived his whole life during the near-death experience so he was electrocuted once had open heart surgery twice and brain surgery once in each time He entered this altered state of consciousness which is known as a near death experience And has been studied extensively by many medical doctors and researchers dr Bruce Grayson from UVA and others and they're concluding that

23:50 that many of these experiences cannot be explained by brain functioning alone. In other words, it seems that when you get the brain out of the way there's an expanded state of consciousness that can be accessed and perhaps the near-death experience date is showing what happens in the early stages of actual death And another point that suggests that might be true is known as the shared death experience, where a healthy person who doesn't have a dying brain is co-living in the dying process with the person who's dying and experiences the same things that a near death experiencer would have sometimes including a life review. So you have a non-dying brain co-living in the dying process with someone who is actually dying suggests maybe the near death experience is showing us the early stages of death but what happened for Daniel Brinkley

24:36 It's such a rare case where someone almost dies that many times and he relived his life from the beginning each time. So he had to relive his combat days in Vietnam. He told me he was vicious in combat and he had to relive what it felt like to be the person that he killed, so that was very traumatizing for him. He also relived what it was like to be the children who no longer had a father because he killed their father, so he felt the indirect effects of his actions and as a result of that, he came back, he changed his whole life like many near-death experiencers do. He became much less materialistic and he became a hospice volunteer So in his later near-death experiences, which he didn't know he would have at the time. During those life reviews, he got to relive not only the bad stuff of the pain he caused on other people but he felt what it was like to be the dying person in hospice and he got to see what it was like

25:25 to be comforted by himself. So he got to feel the love that he was giving to this person through that person's eyes, so this is a commonality we see in near-death experiences which I think is compelling but actually the phenomenon I think is most compelling with regard to this question of consciousness it's known as the veridical out-of-body experience. Veridical means verified memory basically So when a person is in the near-death state, their consciousness sometimes is hovering over their body or in another room even. And upon being resuscitated they come back and they tell the doctor or family members or other bystanders this was what was happening at this time and they explain it from the vantage point of being outside the body

26:03 So what we have there is in the cases where the doctor says, yeah actually that's what I was doing in surgery but you couldn't have known that because I know what your brain was doing at the time and by the way how could you explain that from a vantage point outside of the body? That can't be true. What we have is a verified memory. In other words, a non-hallucinatory experience It's not a hallucination if they can tell you what actually happened, it's verified. And if the doctor can timestamp and say well I know what your body and brain were doing at the time because we have the medical data... Your brain should not have been capable of producing something that lucid let alone something from outside the body

26:40 So when I interviewed Dr. Jan Holden from the University of North Texas, who studies near-death experiences she says this wipes out physiological explanations of the near death experience because a materialist or physicalists would say oh yeah these are interesting but it's just random products to the brain you know that brain has a spike of electrical activity and it produces this complex phenomenon, you can't really explain a veridical out-of-body experience that way. And that's a really powerful phenomenon I would refer your audience to a book called The Self Does Not Die which has accumulated over 100 of these cases they're very difficult to document and if If you think about it, Greg most people in these situations they're just trying to live and the doctor's trying to save them. They're not thinking about scientific research about the nature of conscious snow so when you can actually document these and have over 100 cases it is really powerful. Yeah! And obviously scales up from there we'll get into some other books but then you get into The Contact Book that too I read getting ready for this were upside down contact

27:39 cosmology, but there's overlap between a lot of these books. And when you get into near death experiences that involve the grays and messages from the grays about dead loved ones and them being there is a lot of crazy crossover. And if consciousness is primary then there's a lot of different situations that can arise from consciousness. But you mentioned that you are on the board at ions and I have had two ion scientists on, Dr. Dean Radin and Dr. Helena Wabaugh who wrote the book about channeling really fascinating book and i like the work they do but i haven't really heard about anything recently from ions what are they working on now? Well there's research always coming out and at the ions website there is a publications page if any of your audience members are interested in following the new publications

28:32 It's psi phenomena. There is always interest in that, meaning psychic abilities. Heleni Wabe focuses... She has written a book on the science of channeling work on lucid dreaming for example some work on energy healing and really we're interested in anything that challenges the mainstream paradigm We have a new president Thomas Brophy I think now that there's more interest in these phenomenon, there is not the same taboo that I encountered when i came out with my first book and 2018 and then to upside down thinking there's more receptivity. So these sorts of things and there was a netflix documentary docuseries called surviving death.

29:08 the Telepathy Tapes podcast featuring Dr. Diane Powell on nonverbal autistic savants who can read their caretaker's minds, I actually interviewed Dr. Diane Powell in my podcast as well back in 2019 so there is more momentum and I'm hoping that because of that people will start to acknowledge the research that ion scientists are doing but they're doing controversial stuff that is not acknowledged by most academics although what I hear a lot is that there will be mainstream professors who will tell the scientists We're really interested in your work, but we can't talk about this. So we'll just have to talk in private or another researcher I know she was told to take her precognition research off her resume if she wanted to make tenure so she ended up having to leave academia This is the sort of thing we're dealing with and that's probably why you don't hear too much about ions Yeah, it's true It's crazy out there that the old paradigm

30:00 can hang on so long when I really do think so many people are past it. But okay, as a board member of ions i'm curious about this. So ions was funded or founded by Edgar Mitchell A guy who came out of the Navy to become the Apollo 14 lunar module pilot And they say the sixth man to walk on the moon. His official biography also says he was raised in Roswell, New Mexico during the time of the incident and I find that to be curious too but having read your cosmology book, I know that you've thoroughly deconstructed The Moon Landing hoax? How do you square these two things anyone can develop an interest in consciousness Of course we're all human but

30:43 This is someone who apparently deceived the world about their crowning accomplishment and then started this organization in which you are now a board member of writing a book about the flat earth. Well, I would say my book is about globe skepticism and skepticism of cosmology generally speaking rather than saying I know what it is for certain but I do talk about this notion of topographical plane and different frameworks that have been put forth. I joined The Board Of Ions in 2019 after the first book book came out I was not questioning cosmology the time i never met dr Edgar Mitchell any views I have with regard to cosmology I should preface by saying are my own views and don't necessarily reflect the views of anyone at the organization you have to talk to them about it. Of course, but

31:27 The work of ions and their consciousness research was part of what changed my life. It started me down this rabbit hole, questioning the nature of reality itself like you said Greg, the container, the metaphysical container is matter fundamental? Is something else fundamental? What is this place that informs how we think about any conspiracy or even politics or economics. I think the metaphysics is essential and ions played a big role for me in shifting that, and I think the research they're still putting out is very important in shifting the paradigm around getting away from materialism or physicalism so in that regard I think it's a very important organization and anything else I can't speak to because I never met Edgar Mitchell Fair enough yes

32:09 People are complicated. We don't even know what happened to them. I'm curious what you think because there's one angle that the astronauts were Freemasons and that Freemasons are an old powerful organization that have infiltrated the sciences, thus they can kind of put out the narratives that the rest of us trust as them being experts So there's this angle that they did free masonic rituals on the moon. This is what the Dark Mission book by Hoagland is all about, then you see that press conference after one of the Moon landings and they all look so confused And I sometimes wonder, were they part of an organization set up to deceive and they've been lying the whole time? Or is it possible that they themselves were even tricked when I watched that press conference. I drift towards thinking that they were tricked because when they start getting asked questions about stars there like huh what was that What do you think

33:04 Do you think they were maybe hypnotized and maybe only realized it years later or do you think they were deceiving everyone from the ground up? I really don't know, but I ask many of those questions. When I look at anyone that is doing something that I don't agree with let's say... So we looked at the press conference after the first alleged moon landing and the astronauts all looked depressed You'd think that they would be celebrating this major accomplishment for mankind and they look despondent. Multiple things come to my mind, whether it's with regard to the moon landings or any other initiative I ask myself is the person knowingly participating in some deception? Or are they unknowingly doing it? And if they're knowingly doing it why? Are they intentionally evil and they want to deceive everyone? Or is it more subtle? Are they threatened? Are they blackmailed? Have they been bribed

33:55 Is MKUltra involved? We don't know what's going on in these simulations with NASA and other organizations. Is MKUltra involved in that?" And I was interested when I interviewed Russell Targ for my podcast, Where is My Mind?, he was one of the leaders of the US government psychic spying program in the 70s. He's a laser physicist and he talked to me all about how remote viewing as a real phenomenon but he talked also about the funding for the program So we're talking about consciousness here. And he mentioned NASA as one of the organizations that funded the research, and I remember when I heard that in 2019, I just thought that was interesting like okay there's so many government organizations but now i'm looking at questioning cosmology and as you know Gregg in my book An End to The Upside Down Cosmos, I don't talk about space agencies until later in the book right? That's for a reason because I think questioning the physics

34:42 is a fundamental part of looking at what the space agencies claim and cosmology in general. Because what NASA and other organizations claim is based on physics that we can show, is broken. So if we have broken physics then the narrative is inherently problematic in terms of could you even land on a rock that's allegedly 238 thousand miles away? In order for that to happen there are a lot of things that need to be true in terms of the physics So it makes me wonder for a lot of reasons what's actually going on. And there weren't that many people that even allegedly went to the moon, so we're dealing with a small number of people no independent journalism and a lot of anomalies. I don't know for sure what happened but the narrative doesn't seem to hold up to me. Yeah and you're making good points i would agree

35:31 I also speculate knowing or unknowingly deceiving. And when you look at that press conference, if they were knowingly deceiving, they would have played the part they would've done the Robbie Parker thing of like showing the emotion that people expect to be shown rather than as if five minutes ago, they were like, Hey those pictures we have a year, we're going to put them out. If you say anything about the fact that we're making all this shit up Because they do look like they got a gun to their head kind of, to be at that press conference. So I guess I kind of give some of the astronauts a pass, I suppose but it also is a good approach to be like, look if the physics are broken let's start there you know then none of this works because a lot of people their first response as i know you know is well how could a lie this big be kept?

36:20 There's a bunch of different organizations. I actually looked this up, so there are 77 countries with space agencies and there are 16 countries with launch capabilities So if we know that this is a lie then that suggests a level of control above the nation state How do you get sixteen countries to play ball? Especially ones that are often supposed to be in opposition to each other So it is just a curious thing. That's not a qualifier for the physics being wrong, you know? When you have these conversations with people that are just like, well, it seems like the lie is too big. Well, that's not evidence. That's just your assumption that the lies to big but I am curious what you think about that when you scale it up to it's like wow there is a massive global coordination to perpetuate this lie across many different cultures races nationalities nations It's kind of crazy right? It's the hardest thing for me to believe

37:17 And it was probably the biggest hurdle for me in deciding whether I wanted to submit an end to the upside down cosmos, to my publisher. And by the way credits of Waterside Productions for publishing these books. I send them manuscript and I never have a clue if they're going to think I'm crazy or not and they've stuck with me but I don't know how it works. If we look at the moon missions, for example there were only a small number of people that allegedly went there a lot of other activities from space agencies involves sending things up high in the sky. So, high altitude rockets aren't precluded by the physics that has been challenged. So there are things that space agencies could do that make sense. It's more about leaving quote-unquote Earth's atmosphere to go into the quote unquote vacuum of space and the alleged distances that things are away including these planets that are supposedly rocks and so forth... Those things get into questioning physics

38:13 And one thing I could speculate is that there are people who are taking in data within the organizations, but they don't necessarily know the origin of the data. So those people wouldn't have to be in on any lie. They would just be doing their job based on the assumptions that they have and if you had a few people who could alter the data Then this lie could be propagated. But I don't know, without being on it in the inside doesn't make sense to me." Yeah! I am right there with you on that so obviously you wrote this book on the medical system as well... The end of upside-down medicine contagion viruses and vaccines like We've done many whole shows on that topic and there's still examples from my waking life that I can't square. It's actually funny because it's kind of the opposite of flat earth, right? Flat earth... you know, I guess I shouldn't say that but questioning the cosmology and the conventional model your observer effect is what breaks it. You're like well I don't know-I don't care what I read in this textbook

39:09 book, my observer effect does not match that. And on the contagion side it's almost the opposite is like I've got a lot of alternative doctors saying well these things are all part of Rockefeller medicine they're not real and then my kid comes home from school sick and it feels very real when me and her mom get sick so it's like almost the opposite It's just strange but the commonality is looking at big things and looking at small things and I agree with you about the point about the data Because it is interesting, like how many deceptions are based off a computer model? And there's all this debate. Did they ever isolate the virus of COVID and if you look at the papers they say well we got most of it and then a computer model filled in the rest of it and it's like well then you didn't get it! It's just an interesting point that maybe someone at the highest level is injecting data to the people who are in the mid middle levels

40:03 Just doing their job because you can't see any of this stuff You need a telescope to see space and then you need an electron microscope To see things at the virus level because viruses are like 50 to 100 times smaller than bacteria So you are in a privileged club already, and then they just manipulate the software I suppose Then just you're already set up to pre-assume that you see this little squiggle on the slide and that's what made that person sick. And space has similar assumptions based on your education, but interesting point that we have to figure out how so many people are deceived and it seems like kind of maybe through the software.

40:43 there is no direct evidence for the things claimed in both cosmology and medicine. And therefore, the belief in those models relies on a logical fallacy inherently it's known as affirming the consequence if X then Y why therefore x? If it rains than the grass outside will be wet I observe wet grass therefore it rained Well, it could have been dew or sprinklers or children running by and pouring water on the grass. A lot of other reasons that we can observe things so observing something doesn't necessarily tell us its cause. We see that a lot in cosmology and we see it a lot in medicine but in terms of direct evidence what would direct evidence for

41:21 current cosmology be? Well, we'd want to see a Big Bang. That was allegedly 13.8 billion years ago so there's no direct evidence. We're seeing things like radiation that we say that was because of the big bang and there are holes in that or heliocentrism, the idea that Earth goes around the sun well we would wanna see Earth going around the sun but no one has ever shown a video about it No one has ever shown a picture of earth its alleged place on solar system with other planets around the Sun So we don't have that direct evidence. We have inferences and if you wanted to prove a spinning globe having a radius value of roughly 4,000 miles at the equator on a tilted axis. We'd want to see an oblate spheroid shape doing a full rotation so that would mean continuous video footage of a full sphere not parts of it at high altitudes and then making a composite image based on satellite imagery you want to have us full sphere doing a full rotation

42:11 And you'd want to be able to zoom in on that sphere and see buildings and people standing upright on the top, hanging sideways on the side. And simultaneously hanging upside down on the bottom of this fear we don't have that direct evidence similarly if we wanted to prove that a virus existed and cause disease We want to see the things that a virus is alleged to do So we'd want to see this intracellular parasite getting inside of a host cell, inside of an organism replicating bursting out of that host cell going into other cells causing physical disease symptoms in that organism and the process. And then going outside of that organism and jumping to another organism and doing the same thing. We don't have any of that because you

42:53 We have a lot of stuff that's going on in the laboratory. We have cell cultures where you take fluids from a sick person and then put it into the cell culture, and if cells break down in the cell culture people assume that a virus must've caused that. This is a method that was conceived in 1954 by Enders & Peebles and I just simplified it but basically we have indirect evidence. Um...we have electron microscope imagery And that's a problem because you have to really tamper with the sample. You have to slice it up, stain it with resin all sorts of things so you're looking at something that is dead under the electron microscope and then you say this dead thing was inside an organism doing all the stuff I claimed before that we are told about a virus but its indirect

43:34 You're looking at a structure, but you don't know the structure is viral in nature. And that's what happens with all this stuff. You're seeing wet grass and you're like well if it rained then that's why I would see wet grass? It's true if the viral model existed Then, if we took fluids from a sick person and put it into a cell culture cells would break down. It doesn't necessarily mean the virus was the cause or if a virus existed we would see certain patterns of illness. A bunch of people go to party some of them get sick afterwards well the viral model could explain that but that doesn't mean the viral models is only explanation what other common things were people exposed to? Were there environmental toxins did they eat the same food that they had food poisoning

44:10 Were there electromagnetic issues, EMFs? Electricity. Were there spiritual issues, resonance that people experienced biofield are their parts of science we don't even understand that explain common exposure that could make people sick or their psycho psychological issues. There's a field called German new medicine which deals with the role of the psyche and resolving conflicts to the point is that people could be exposed to similar things that could cause similar symptoms you don't need a virus for that There are a lot of other things. And by the way, often what happens is that not everyone gets as sick so some people might have certain symptoms but it's not as bad and some people get really sick and some people don't get sick at all we would need to explain those anomalies What happens? Post hoc rationalizations or as Dr Tom Cowan calls it inventive reasoning Oh well there was this immune system response that these people had that they did The other ones didn't and their immune system was stronger So they were able to fight off the virus that no one's found and that explains it

45:04 So you end up with inference on top of inference and it's a house of cards. And it's the same thing with cosmology. Yeah, I love a good Tom Cowan reference. I'm a fan and I've been trying to get them here. Tom don't let my friendship with Alex Sikaris keep you from coming here because I know that there was that famous interview that lasted about 10 minutes when Alex wouldn't let it go about the virus but great point. And also this system tells us Oh when you shake hands with a person You're transferring 1 million viruses Okay, well if that's true how are you going to say that the thing on this slide the little squiggle that you see on the TV screen That supposed to be the same thing is The cause of the illness I mean obviously we've been through this and

45:46 It is just a curious thing. So I really like the psychology, I mean, I've just been doing conspiracy so long and even going back to the first crack in my own awareness 9-11 it was just so interesting when someone presented to me oh here's a documentary that suggests that the government did this and it was an inside job And I was intrigued! Yeah let's watch that! And I was among friends and some of them said I'm not even gonna give that time of day And it's like, whoa. Why? It's just not maybe they don't make that good of a case let's just see and the room was totally split I will not look at that and we were like 20 we shouldn't be indoctrinated too badly yet and i just saw real split and I'm always interested in the conspiracy psychology and I've heard you say two things about your own kind of journey and all these subjects and trying to talk to people one

46:40 is that when you get into discussions about these topics and the assumptions that people have about them, you realize that they don't actually know that much about the models that they aggressively defend. The person challenging the model of virology or or heliocentrism, or consciousness tends to know a lot more. And that's so true because they're going against the grain. They don't want to be wrong! So they've got their ducks more in a row than the random person who just assumes everything they've heard is true and doesn't even really know how to repeat what they've heard. Then two when you investigate these ideas that drive huge sectors of our lives like medicine or are agreed upon official history,

47:22 There's oftentimes not a lot there at the foundation that it's assumptions based on assumptions based on one guy who worked for the British Royal Society. It's wild like I think that's kind of the thing that surprises more people rather than the first point, But talk to us about some of these subjects you've looked at and how when you really got down there, there's not a lot of hard evidence at the bottom. That's one of the reasons I felt like I could publish these books or submit them to my publisher and hope that they would accept it because I realized that those who challenged these alternative views would often reflexively say, well that's just a psyop without actually knowing what was being argued. So I said there is a lot here and it is worth presenting the other side or at least the challenges to the mainstream model because we need to figure this stuff out but the other commonality is lack of direct evidence for thing claimed so mainstream metaphysics physicalism materialism everything can be explained by these little billiard balls hitting each other

48:23 Leading to a human being after billions of years of evolution which has a brain and consciousness pops out no one has ever observed consciousness popping out of the brain we believe that because of correlation. The brain is correlated with conscious experience correlation does not necessarily causation do firefighters cause fires, Or do they put out fires? Some people would conclude, oh well the firefighters are there so they must have caused the fire. Is that what we're doing with the brain and consciousness? The brain creates consciousness because the brain's correlated. No actually there's another model that the brain could be like an antenna or a filtering mechanism or... There's an alternative that can explain a lot of what we see same thing with virology if you're going to shut the world down on the basis of this particle that gets inside of host cells and replicates and is this parasite and can be transmitted from one organism to another

49:06 Can you show it to us, please? And I just expected when I looked into this because that was book six Greg. Yeah, no! I had heard the virus stuff and I was skeptical and said that sounds like a distraction something to keep the health freedom community discredited or even the movement to question jabs You have these people talking about viruses That's going to distract from what we should really be talking about which is these toxins that were injecting children and adults with But then I looked into it. I didn't even know what the arguments were, I was stunned to learn for example like you'd think it would be really easy to demonstrate contagion forget isolating a virus and showing that a virus exists and the fact that the freedom of information request submitted by Christine Massey and her colleagues around the world she asked for a purified sample of just a virus by itself And they all said we don't have it because the gold standard is not to do that

49:57 The gold standard is to use a cell culture. So we never have an independent variable in any of these studies, you would want to have an independent variable as just a virus because you'd want to introduce just a virus into a sample of healthy organisms to see if those healthy organisms get sick But let's just say we don't have that because we know from the way virology works, they don't ever get to a fully purified sample. They'll filter a sample but it's never a virus by itself there's never an independent variable but as Dr Cowan and others says well why don't we just take some sick people and put them with healthy people? and see if the healthy ones get sick. That's actually been done with Spanish flu, Milton Rosenau medical doctor he took people with this allegedly such a contagious virus they injected fluids of sick people into healthy people

50:44 They didn't get sick. They had sick people cough in the faces of healthy people, the healthy people didn't get sick... they tried everything! They couldn't transmit and the way these contagion studies are done is often that they'll claim we demonstrated contagion but it's using an unnatural method so with regard to polio for example The first demonstration of contagion was to take an unpurified sample and inject it into monkey brains. And the monkey got sick, what do you know? Monkey got sick after you injected unpurified sample into their brain and they say we've demonstrated contagion. So there's a great book out by Daniel Roythas called Can You Catch A Cold?, he evaluated over 200 studies of demonstrations where they were trying to transmit the cold but they weren't able to do it

51:28 without having the independent variable of the purified sample of a virus, all those studies are inherently going to be problematic anyway. Yes. Daniel is great. He was here a little less than a year ago I think and you know he is one of these doctors who is citing these kinds of studies that you're bringing up but I thought what was unique about his work and you kind of brought up this point too when they try to isolate things especially at that micron level there adding formaldehyde bleach They're cutting, they're dicing. They are arranging it in this paper mache situation It's not just like taken out of the body put on the slide and here it is And he applied that to vitamins and its like the whole scurvy thing with vitamin C Well we know Vitamin C is a thing that cures everyone now you can just put vitamin C in a pill

52:17 and you have that one component of the orange that is healthy. No, that's bullshit! That's like a consumerism trick because how did they discover that vitamin C is the thing in the orange? Well same thing they split it all apart tried to isolate various parts added formaldehyde to this and then they inject it into people and eventually someone didn't get sick and they're like well that's the healing mechanism right there that's the vitamin c vitamin d is even crazier Because you're telling me this thing that there's something in sunlight that you can essentially put into a pill eventually and The people like dr. Tom Cowan would say all that vitamin D is is a readout in your body of how much sun exposure You've had it's not really anything It's just a number on a screen that says this person recently got sunlight whereas sunlight is a hugely complex

53:09 situation, but it does seem to be good for our health. But I just thought Daniel was really great at pointing out that maybe the whole vitamin supplement industry is really just another net to catch us from the pharmaceutical industry we think were being healthier we think were going holistic It's just more pills you gotta eat whole foods because they're so complex that we don't really know what's in there thats truly the healing mechanism It's running into the same logical fallacy I mentioned before, affirming the consequent where there is an observation and then a causal model is put on top of it. Oh now we know why they got healthy? It's because of this one thing. I haven't studied the vitamin issue quite as much but it seems similar to what's going on in virology. Daniel Roitas also did a great webinar with Dr Tom Cowan on parasites

53:53 and talks about small parasites called protozoa. And he asked the same question, has that actually been isolated? And have the big parasites been shown as the causal agents of disease? This is part of the terrain theory which challenges the germ theory of disease. The idea is that bacteria exist, fungi exists large parasites exists now there's this debate about small parasites but do those things that exist cause disease or are they actually cleaning up the body because the body is so toxic that these things need to emerge in large quantities to get rid of it. So, it would be like blaming the firefighter for trying to put out the fire when you see this quote-unquote bacterial infection? That's a question to ask but I think it's worth doubling down on this viral isolation method because it's basically the same thing that happens in these other areas. The 1954 study that I mentioned before Enders and Peebles they

54:40 They were the first ones to isolate a virus. But basically, they changed the definition of the word isolate as Dr Tom Cowan says isolation means to separate one thing from all other things if you want to separate a hammer from a toolbox You take the hammer out of a toolbox and it can study the hammer you can characterize it And then you can learn that in a hammer Can smash a nail and the hammer caused the nail to get smashed because you isolated the hammer I mean sounds so simple So you think that if you're isolating a virus, you're taking the virus out from all the other things and then you can introduce that virus into other samples and you can introduce it into healthy organisms so you see if they get sick. But that's not what they do. They take a cell culture which is a soup of material that has antibiotics monkey kidney cells all sorts of other things. They take fluids from a sick person in the case of the 1954 study they took their

55:29 This was a measles patient, so someone that had symptoms that they assumed was viral. It was caused by a virus. They took those fluids filtered them put it into the cell culture and they found that some of the cells broke down in the cell culture when they added fluids from a sick person and they concluded well we know because we're presupposing that the person had measle symptoms because of virus So the fluids from that person must have had a virus in it And therefore when we added it to the cell culture soup When cells broke down, it must have been the virus that caused that. I mean there are a lot of other reasons cells could have broken down like the fact that you have antibiotics and lots of other things in the cell culture or maybe other things in the person's body... There are a lot of other questions but they call that isolation so that's not isolation and if your audience is looking this up on Google and they find hundreds of papers of the isolation of SARS-CoV2 and other viruses

56:17 They're saying, well what are you guys talking about? These papers talk about isolation. They're speaking about isolation using the cell culture method because they have a different definition in virology and as I said this is problematic because they're not following the scientific method. In order to follow the scientific method you need to have an independent variable on proper controls therefore you need to have a truly purified sample. You know we don't have a lot of time left but You're questioning cosmology, virology, atoms the nature of every single thing. Well I have to ask you a little more about the deceivers! We're talking about a level of deception that spans all scientific knowledge space medicine consciousness matter physics

56:58 Everything. Walk us through the logic of who could even pull this off and for so long, because there's a lot of people they talk about the power pyramid. There's a lot of people putting someone else at that capstone but you have to have thought about this and it is an important question who is deceiving us? To this degree I have no idea who To me, it's metaphysical. It's a spiritual war at some level. Demonic satanic beings, archons I don't know what they are that human beings can interact with and we see this in satanic rituals where people, and have been doing this for a very long time have sophisticated rituals involving horrific forms of torture to invoke dark entities. And they claim to get power from them. So if we extrapolate that to what's happening in the world it makes a lot of sense that there could be some people who know how to access these dark entities and dark entities who know how to access us and can manipulate society because I had been thinking about this a lot and more and more

57:56 I'm born into the world and thought that was pretty well educated. And, I was taught stuff at credentialed places and now contradicting everything that I learned how could that be? If a system were set up by few people then you had other people to propagate it innocently it could happen like the Flexner report for example which changed medical system in 1910 We went from a holistic system to now the allopathic system, which was reductionistic. It's all based on germ theory that got homeopathy and those alternative things out of there but that was based on a few people at the top that decided to change the system and then you had the order followers who believed in the system and we're gonna continue to propagate it

58:35 And I sometimes think, what would I believe if I were taught nothing? Many of the things that I believed from school and the media. I probably wouldn't believe I would say come on you got to prove that we're expanding a million miles an hour in ever expanding universe and there's this infinite space vacuum and they're these little viruses that no one has ever seen and that's what's causing people to get sick. And there is this DNA stuff or you know what i mean i wouldn't necessarily believe it because no one has shown it to me So, you could see how the belief system comes from indoctrination which could be enacted by elite individuals who have power in society. Yes. Yeah that's fair to say I mean with medicine it's very easy to be like well this Rockefeller Foundation has a huge influence on it obviously oil petrochemicals become medicine yeah it's all kind of the same industry there

59:27 And then you reverse engineer that, you know, your from the Ivy league where the Ivy league come from. A lot of the universities are either Jesuit universities or they were funded from money. This is something I learned from John Patash funded from money of drug traffickers that were involved with like the East India company so you can go back to that and they've got a black market thing going on under the surface and then that is the money that funds the Ivy leagues that do the brainwashing So you can at least take it that far and say that these are some of the organizations involved. The Royal Society, how much of our conventional model comes from the Royal Society? You have to take it there too beyond that It does get a little hard to pin down.

1:00:10 Secret societies, Freemasons seem to be heavily involved in a lot of this skull and bones Freemason adjacent organizations. But I don't know if you can really go much further back than that obviously the money is a big thing that we're on a fiat currency system so you can throw some shade at Kazarian banking families i guess and then they go into the religious aspects of like charging usury to certain groups and not others uh...that's going to be a factor but But even though money is ubiquitous and it is an enslavement tool, money doesn't have a lot to do with the ideologies that we've adopted that we're deconstructing today. So where did those ideologies come from? Is it all industry? I don't know. It...I can't take it back much further than like the Royal Society and the Jesuits. Would you agree kind of?

1:00:58 I really don't know. I get lost in that area of research because it becomes very difficult to verify what's happening within secret societies by definition, if they're secretive it's hard to know and even the whistleblowers we don't know what's disinformation We can try to triangulate and I know people do that but I get lost my brain explodes when I look into that history And that's why my books haven't tried to pin this seeming conspiracy metaphysical conspiracy to any individuals It's too difficult another thing I think about a lot because of my background is I've known prominent people, very successful people throughout my life. I've never seen any of these conspiracies. I know a lot of people who think they're doing good and they might fund things that I don't think are good like leftist initiatives for example and I've written against that stuff but even within like you say within the Ivy Leagues there are groups or clubs like Skull & Bones...I mean i don't know what goes on there but there are levels to all this stuff within finance. I worked on Wall Street

1:01:51 I was an analyst. I don't know what was going on that was controlling the deals that I was working on, for example. I was just following the orders of people above me and trying to do a good job so I can see how this pyramid would work. And another one to throw in is that I'm culturally Jewish. That's the big topic right now. I've known a lot of Jewish people in my life. I was never religious growing up when I just thought it was total BS, religion. I thought all religion was B.S.. Now more open to all the traditions but I've known a lot of Jewish people and I've never heard a lot of the claims come out in terms of conspiracy. I've never encountered some of that stuff directly, So, if this is happening in society, this meta conspiracy it has to be a very small group that's tightly controlled and maybe blackmail and these other things are mechanisms of control. And it probably is very ancient. Yeah, blackmail for sure. I have Jewish friends that are also secular they don't practice the religion their parents do they come from wealth? It is interesting but you can't control what family you're born into or what body your born into

1:02:53 There is something weird with Israel. Israelis should be able to criticize, that's a country! You can say why does it seem to be an Israel first kind of thing? But maybe they just have a very sophisticated and successful blackmail network and that's what it comes down to but there is this just whether it's Freemasons or this sect within Judaism which David Icke calls Sabbatean Frankism It just seems like a lot of people think Room where people gather and they say you know all these other people are expendable and You know whoever you put at the apex. I suppose whatever label you put on that it seems to be

1:03:30 pretty ubiquitous that throughout all time periods, that there is an elite who think the rest of us are expendable. And that's about as far as you can take it. It seems like the people within the secret room do change. And another thing I find difficult to just conceptualize is if you have people that are that malicious who aren't just innocently propagating a narrative because they think they're doing the right thing like vaccines. There are a lot of people who innocently think they're doing a good job but they haven't done the research to say that everyone should get a vaccine. But we're talking about the people that are maliciously wanting to enslave. If they're that malicious, would they be able to coordinate with others without killing them off and not being greedy? And maybe that's where blackmail plays in where it's mutually assured destruction I don't know where it's like they can't enact their evilness in that setting because it's against their interests and there somehow coherent enough not too or you know in the same way that mafia families they can sort of coexist peacefully. I'm just guessing here

1:04:26 Yeah, it is a lot of guesswork. And of course with the Jewish thing people say well look at what they write about the goyim and how you can just take advantage of the goyim and look at the Talmud and stuff... I grew up Christian Catholic Look at all the religions. All the religions basically are like, if you aren't one of us then you are nothing and we can exploit you and you're going to hell forever so every religion has that You can make an argument that maybe Jews have been more successful than other groups who have this same mindset It's not a monopoly on the mindset of superiority, because all religions have that. Kill the infidel... it's all the same stuff so either way I- And then how many people within our religion culturally or otherwise have actually read the scriptures? Ask your Jewish friends how many of them have read the Talmud or live by it!

1:05:18 portions that people have sent me. So I think we have to get like more specific as to which people were talking about because there certainly are people that probably abide by religious scriptures and things like that, and then I had big questions about the biblical stories all the stories but this notion of Elohim. I've written about that in my books spoken with friends from Israel and they're like yeah Elohim That's plural plural in Hebrew, so Elohim meaning the creator in the Torah of the Old Testament. Maybe that was plural and one of the Elohim is the God of the Jewish people and the Torah which I'm very critical of that god because it doesn't seem like the unconditionally loving interconnected thing that people experience

1:05:58 with near-death experiences or psychedelics or meditation, breathing or whatever else. We see a much more human like figure that exhibits greed and more human emotions that are always positive and that's the God of The Old Testament so it raises questions about what actually happened there? What happened was the story of Moses true on Mount Sinai? What was the light show up there where we're talking about interdimensional beings that he encountered one in the Elohim I'm just throwing a lot of stuff out there. No, yeah, I love that and you know we're really cooking with gas now but it is about that time i gotta start wrapping this thing up for you so this really was great! I'm impressed with how you've applied your classical education and work ethic to

1:06:42 It's not easy to write seven books in such a short period of time, but if you're coming out of academia where they're already cracking the whip on you to produce written material. You can keep that going and And I didn't really touch on your political books. Let's fold that in just real quick because I kind of skipped over those two and I read the contact book we didn't even talk about, but the whole idea of spirits being the truth thing and aliens being a deception. I mean that comes up here all the time, but yeah, I did love the book and people interested in that subject would like it too. I skipped the political ones because to me just knowing the right political structure doesn't really

1:07:23 Help me mentally because I have no control over the political structure in which we're in. So a lot of times it sounds like we're trying to circle around a potential utopia that is arbitrary anyway, but maybe touch on those two give us the uh, The whole ending pitch, give us your links and all that good stuff. But this has been a lot of fun Yeah, I really appreciate it Greg and thanks for going in so many different directions. An End to Upside-Down Liberty published in 2021 my first political book It's the book I was most nervous about publishing because at the time I had just written about spirituality and consciousness And I remember how polarizing that period was I knew I would lose people certainly I did That book makes an argument against The political monopoly known as The State

1:08:05 That's the form of government we have all over the world, political monopoly over certain territory. I think it's important to critique it even if the alternative might be a utopia, they fully privatized society known as voluntarism because it pokes holes in the way we're doing things and it helps to evaluate policy from a different perspective but to me it also violates basic logic. The logic of why we think we need a government is that we don't trust people If we trust the people, we wouldn't need a government. But people are too warlike and untrustworthy and they're going to do bad things if we didn't have a government so our solution based on the fact that we don't trust people is to take a subset of the people we don't trust and put them into a political monopoly and then give them unilateral decision-making authority to enact laws even if we disagree with them doesn't make any logical sense to do that To take people you don't trust and put them in a position of power over you And the argument as well

1:08:56 We are just going to elect them and then we're gonna put the right people into power but then again, the logic has been violated because if you don't trust people you wouldn't trust them to elect the right people into power and you wouldn't trust them too. run free and fair elections. So you run into some logical contradictions based into statism, the way we do government and this feeds into economics, the Austrian school of economics I won't go into that here but I think there are a lot of compelling arguments The kicker that I incorporate in that book is that I argue that the state violates natural law based on what we see in near-death experiences and life review And it seems that morality is embedded within reality, the golden rule based on the life review and near-death experiences. And if we apply that then the way we do government violates natural law. That's the connector of the way we do economics because you are enabled under statism to violate the nonaggression people. You can tell people to do things they didn't ask for. You can initiate aggression against their private property without their explicit and mutually agreed upon consent. Instead, we have implied consent in a social contract no one has ever seen

1:09:57 No one's ever seen what the social contract is. Klaus Schwab talks about revising the social contracts, which feeds into this other political book and then to the upside down reset on The Great Reset and in that book I ask the question of what was the initial social contract that we're revising? But in that second political book, I criticize The Great Reset as a largely leftist initiative leftist being distinct from liberal. So, a liberal would say I respect your right to say anything you want whereas the leftists would say yeah, say anything you want unless we subjectively deem it to be hateful and there are a lot of other examples of that and The Great Reset is not 100% leftist but parallels many aspects of that ideology so I break down the weaponization of compassion

1:10:41 and talk about the dangers of that because we see it a lot in the spiritual community, of these things that pull on the heartstrings of people. Oh this sounds so nice! We're going to save the planet and not let you drive your car as much. We're not gonna let you travel because we're being so compassionate. And many other areas of what some would call the woke initiatives in culture...and we see this with economics too, of things that sound good don't always do good. That shows up on the political spectrum and that book seeks to expose it and end to the upside down reset All of my books are available on Amazon in hard copy, Kindle and Audible formats. I narrate the audibles myself. I have a podcast series Where Is My Mind that I mentioned on the nature of consciousness? In that series just for your audience's reference, I mentioned viruses and flat earth as things basically opposite to what we talked about today. That was back in 2019 so I didn't know at the time. I hadn't explored those topics so don't hold it against me please.

1:11:34 That's available on Spotify, Apple podcast all the major players and my website is mark gober.com M-A-R-K G O P E R Awesome awesome always be closing you know how to stick a landing so thank you again I mean we really covered everything there is to cover and I appreciate your openness and just the level of research that you have done it's been a real pleasure take care out there And the crowd goes wild. I hope it's maybe a little early to take a victory lap, but that was a fun one, right? I really think Mark is putting out good stuff. He's got a good sense of humor while also having some pretty damn good arguments, I think. And I've really thought this since nine 11, but I'm glad he brings it up that people who tend to be most close minded to alternative takes

1:12:28 tend to know the least about the details of their own tightly held close chested official position. It's cathartic to hear someone say that because we all experience it and you would think that those people would be the first ones to say, I'm not sure. I don't know but I guess if it's an issue of trust and faith over critical thinking then we're not in the realm of logic anyway Yeah. So I liked this one, I think it's really interesting that he has this impressive resume and background in education, but yet he done woke up and you can't go back. And so we applied this impressive work ethic to coalescing all the information that he's absorbed into this series of books. The more, the merrier right? Maybe he'll get some people on the heliocentrism thing who have yet to be convinced

1:13:25 Hard to say, but we joked about a lot of stuff and I thought it was fun. And the plus show you know there was this thing that came up where he knows that people in conspiratorial are going to be skeptical of him too because of his Jewish background and is just general career. I mean working in banks and big tech now it's kind of hard to hit other spots on the bingo card that makes someone more skeptical but life is funny And, you know, I did actually think that we would have heliocentrism take up far less airtime. But ultimately if I have a guest who's this diverse, I just like it to be the material that doesn't overlap with the episodes around it and so from that perspective, I think that this went really well and I definitely would do it again

1:14:19 We shared a couple of links with each other after the show, and I sent him a link to hidden energy Tesla inspired inventors and a mindful path. To energy abundance by Janine Manning and Susan Manoj, because it's probably the best intro summary into the broad topic of alternative tech and energy that I've found And then he could follow the threads deeper from there, but few books hit at least all the big ones. As far as I know, which is of course why he should end up doing the end of upside down energy because there's a hole in the market, I would say. And I think the implications are insane and there just needs to be more books that pull it all together. And if you want to add in prohibition being about

1:15:10 Alcohol is a fuel and the control demolition of the American rail system in exchange for the highway network. And the whole Hindenburg false flag, if you'll loop all that in then you're really cooking with gas and putting out a book that hits a sweet spot that I've never really seen hit like it should be so I enjoyed this a lot. I got a kick out of asking him about the fact that he's a heliocentrism critic and then being on the board of an organization founded by an Apollo astronaut, look again life is funny, the world is a mess and full of these sorts of things we can laugh about it. I respect ions there should be actually

1:15:51 A lot of shade to throw and complaints to make when it comes to scientific organizations, way before you get down two ions. They're doing good stuff. I actually need to check in on what they are doing. Maybe they've got some scientists that have new projects and new books out. I'd like to revisit that, but yes anyway if you liked the first hour, of course the plus show piled on more curious inconsistencies and fun facts from his book or books, I should say. But in terms of heliocentrism we talked about whale communication and sonar waves what's going on there? How is that explained in the model

1:16:31 The Antarctica final experiment, as they call it and its implications. We talked about the nature of the moon and some weird stuff there, the Crescent moon and the stars in the nations who have that motif on their flags and what it means, especially when these stars within what should be these are conference of the moon. It's odd I brought up that thing about moonlight and it seeming to be colder than The shadow at night. Odd, I've seen the videos on YouTube where they take the thermometer and it seems to check out...I don't know how it makes sense but whatever! We talked about some of the historical stuff he leaned on when it comes to the earth shape

1:17:18 the just general perception of the nature of reality. We questioned atomism and physical reality itself, we went deep! We got into the nature of consciousness, the concept of a captured world and how this could all actually happen to us near-death experience and the messages that we should get from that magic and consciousness manipulation, and the power of manifestation. We talked about nuclear weapons and the historical narratives there, and also the thing that I have yet to really dive into, to a degree in which I can consider myself on board. And that is the Titans and the ancient beings and the work of stellium seven that analog tends to bring up well Mark brought it up too or at least in his books he did. I think I brought it up in the actual interview but It was fun to talk about that. I'm down to talk about it even if I have to say

1:18:17 This makes me feel like maybe I wasn't as open-minded as I thought. But it is interesting, and we might be talking to Stellium 7 here soon! Yes when were going hard at Atoms and the moon and Titans in the mud flood you know were having a good time. You should have seen my man in the sound booth! He was not ready But even as I talked to him afterwards, he was saying that his mind was blown and he had a lot to think about. And he thought this was one of the better ones we recorded since I've been in the studio. So sign up for THC plus if you want a second hour of these here interviews and want to support it truly independent and ad free show all right? Well, I wish Mark luck and success trying to get people to think critically about all the assumptions they have is a noble goal

1:19:12 I hope he does the energy book and I would be happy to put them in the rotation. No pun intended, and when we talk about the rotation, oof someone that the listeners don't seem to want me to have back is Steven Bassett wow I respect his role in the world. Someone really should be doing that, but it just seems like a lot of people who heard that show and full find the only real value in it to be that I did a good job representing what so many people would want to say to Steven their frustrations with the overall field and just the notion that we have to keep this cloud of doubt over ufology until we get the president to give us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth

1:19:58 in some formal press conference scenario. It's something that I would like to see as a novelty, as a huh let's sit back and watch the circus sort of thing but it wouldn't mean much to me personally in terms of how I feel about ufology high strangeness the field of all this stuff and the evidence that is out there and I would assume there'd still be some sort of spin or carefully crafting of the narrative You know, I would probably take it with a grain of salt. But I am glad I did the interview with Steven and I find it useful to take a show to make those points but the guests usually do a lot more of the talking than I do on this show and so some found it difficult to be patient in between my attempts to get those points through him

1:20:50 I'm glad some people saw what I was going for there. I'm never trying to tear a guest down or anything, maybe just nudge them to alter their approach a slight bit or consider information from another realm. I mean aren't Department of Defense approved whistleblowers just doing PR? Isn't approved whistleblower a bit of an oxymoron official disclosure kind of in the same way too i would say like There's plenty of data out there. You don't need the U S government to tell you what it might mean. So the rating for that one is sadly a 3.6 we haven't really been below a four and awhile I get it, I'm not upset about it. I hope that some people might at least clip and share the good moments in that one. That would bring some value to it because Steve has been around for a long time

1:21:39 But it is what it is. Another thing that we didn't get to talk about, but was on my list was that I've heard Stephen Bassett talk about his background. He was a tennis player. I believe he was independently wealthy so he had the ability to do this as a volunteer without worrying about money and I believe I've heard him say that his family had been in Washington and politics for a long time, like since 1920 his family was in politics. And so when he went to do this lobbying thing and commit to it, he just went to Washington and laid up in one of the old family houses. Now that did strike me as odd. I might have misheard but

1:22:27 Either way, just curious. I wanted to bring that up but of course we only could get to so many things anyway other than that i'm just doing what I do trying to bring the heat and stay out of the heat but get into the sun and maybe get a steam deck but it's already three-year old technology and then i'm mad that three year old technology is even considered old and then I just throw up and start over All right, let's look at the meetup calendar. Hireside meetups.com anyone can make an event if they want to meet more like-minded locals and support a local business at the same time here we go all right We're into September Los Angeles California truth or discussion at the trails cafe September 7th on Sunday then September 10th coal bitter collective canal street arcade and deli Dayton Ohio

1:23:21 Cole bitter collective. Okay, September 15th we got Auckland New Zealand coming back around Gail Braths ale house and that's it just three for the month of September Ohio, New Zealand and LA I'd like to see a little more use of the calendar it's out there really just for you guys but You know do what you do? I think like minded locals are important. I think there's a good value there in terms of expanding your network and being ready for the difficult times that might be ahead and wanting to lean on people who don't need to be caught up to speed, but also it's just cathartic and stress reducing and endorphin releasing and amygdala shrinking too get together with people who see the world similarly to you do or at least you can say damn did you hear that last show? That was wild

1:24:16 So, you know, hop on there higher side meetups.com make some events give me at least a two week lead time so I can read it. I like to say twice usually in any two week period, you should have two episodes. So I throw it out here and then people will show up great Well, thanks for listening. Thank you plus people for keeping me in the game and thanks to Mark as well reach out to him and give them the old attaboy if he had a good time take care of you when yours I've done my part your move big harma paradigm crafters heliocentrism hallucinators and deceptive sorcerers of the scientific arts your fucking moon once I found this smoking gun

1:25:02 But nobody else saw it Once someone returned my money but had stolen my wallet Twice I was bitten, but I didn't get shy Been drinking from a cup that's all You can still make spiders not see Tribute to malice What goes deeper than greed? Broke a mirror right before The best seven years of my life

1:25:56 I cross the street and look both ways And i'm still gonna The flags fly at half-mast Whenever it's my birthday You can still make a Tribute to malice What goes deeper? Somethings over your head How can it be too deep? I don't like to cause confusion If you know what I mean. I've seen the sunshine darkest of days

1:27:05 A rich man once told me that's when the best deals are made You can still make out the web When the spider is not seen, you can con The dots just draw some lines in between You can smell them The dots just draw The higher side chats versus the machine