Jan Irvin | Mind Control, Mushrooms, & Terence McKenna

00:04 In the 1930s, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed a nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the Fireside Chats. His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times but we're far from 1930 and I deal with a different kind of fire For a new era of worldly frustration We offer a fresh conversation! I'm Greg Carlwood These are The Hireside Chats How the hell are you, Hireside Chatters from sunny San Diego? Drinking a little drink here and smoking a little smoke. I'm Greg Carlwood and man do i find today's show to be a little bit disappointing if this is your first episode of THC I'd probably suggest you listen to any other episode first they are all a lot more civil than this-I do have to apologize for this interview it's the only time that one of my shows has descended into a dramatic shouting match And if you're not familiar with Jan Irvin

01:02 I have to give you a little bit of background as to why I think this interview went south so fast. Jan was big into the psychedelic culture a few years ago. He gave Joe Rogan his first dose of DMT, sold Duncan Trussell mushrooms a couple of times... Was a large part of popularizing John Allegro's book The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross which was about John's discovery as being one of the first to read The Dead Sea Scrolls he came to the conclusion that Christianity was spawned from psychedelic mushroom fertility cults and this explains a lot of odd Christian traditions. The mushroom grew under pine trees, so now we have Christmas trees They used to dry them above the fire on the mantle which is now where we hang stockings When people tripped on mushrooms they'd see the reindeer dance and prance and fly And so a lot of this is very interesting But in recent years when Jan was digging deep into the psychedelic culture of the 1960's he claims to have come across enough correspondence and quotes

02:00 from some of the main psychedelic gurus and enough links to prove that they were all working for the CIA and MKUltra mind control project. Guys like Timothy Leary, Terrence McKenna, and Jan says even Alan Watts and Jack Kerouac were all tied to the CIA and MKUltra most likely So this has turned Jan against all things psychedelic, and I get that. He sees them all as mind control but as a McKenna fan and a fairly retired psychonaut... ...I thought it would be interesting to talk about his perspective on these things but Jan didn't want to discuss the interesting aspects of John Allegra's book

02:35 which is a book that he does have on his tables at conferences and he is promoting, but he got pretty hostile any time I tried to talk about the content of it or talk about mushrooms in any other way than a mind control tool. Or give any type of counterpoint to his analysis on Terrence McKenna or his viewpoints on a whole host of subjects, you'll see. And it just descended into chaos about 40 minutes in and went off the rails like an Amtrak train So you've been warned I do appreciate Jan's time he is a good guy I wish we could have presented this alternative information in more balanced thoughtful way You know, I thought we had a pretty good rapport. We smoked a bowl right after his paranoia-con presentation so he doesn't have a problem with weed but either way it is what it is in the second hour we talked more about diet as mind control and the dangers of wheat and the benefits of a fat based diet And that was pretty civil

05:14 Alright people, we know the dark tentacles of mind control manipulation have worked their way into nearly every scope of the human experience and the vast persistent think-tanks in the nefarious elite have done their damnedest to ensure that ideas and trends that hit our culture have been thoroughly vetted and tweaked to produce results that keep the power pyramid intact and the mass is dumb and distracted. Well, today's guest is Jan Irvin who has been very disciplined in scholarly and his quest to peel back the layers of manipulation on a whole host of subjects including psychedelics, the origin or religion our diets feminism and anything else tainted by the oily appendages that the puppet masters he's written several great papers and articles and as the man behind GnosticMedia.com I'm psyched to have him here. Jan my man how are you?

05:57 Good Greg thanks for having me. Yeah man this is gonna be fun I'm pretty psyched we got to hang out a little at the paranoia con where you gave a great presentation on various forms of mind control in the dark and dreary underground basement of the paranoia store building that was pretty fun wasn't it? yeah it was good time and we got to sample many various types of fine whiskeys afterward Yeah an important part of the puzzle Absolutely, especially when you weren't previously versed in Whiskeys and you're not gonna go out and spend You know all the money on 50 bottles to line them all up and and try them. So that was actually pretty nice yeah, yeah they all just taste like burning to me but

06:43 But how well you know that it will be and that's what i always thought is that they'll taste bad and the guy there actually turn me on to a couple of that i thought were really nice you know yeah interesting but i would agree that most of my wanted to spit out in a burn my head you never need to have. What anyway so I know as we get into this research that you've done, you're going to ruffle some feathers and throw out some information that goes against what a lot of people in this audience probably value. But i have had several listeners request that I have you on so we can at least talk about it and let's start out the beginning with John Allegro and his research because I think its pretty compelling stuff And you've partnered with his daughter to resurrect his book The Sacred Mushroom & The Cross but give people a little bit info about him and what he was all about

07:34 Well, John Allegro was a one of the eight original Dead Sea Scrolls translators. A part of the original eight team that was brought into Palestine then or you know, it was a little sliver of Jordan I guess where they had held the scrolls and began translating them. The Jordan lost that area during the Six-Day War i believe if I can remember all of the details off at the top my head here but so he worked on the Dead Sea Scrolls for years. He was the only one who published his material in a timely manner, he published his material I think it was in 68 or 69 and none of the others published theirs until the 90's and they had basically withheld...the others had withheld the information about The Dead Sea Scrolls and attacked other scholars and then eventually

08:29 Robert Price down at Long Beach, or not Robert Price excuse me. Robert Eisenman down at Long Beach here in California and then there was Dr. Out of the University of Sheffield, Davies I think was his name and they teamed up together. You know it's funny but Eisenman if you ask him these questions on camera he'll scream that Allegro was wrong and then as soon as the camera shuts off He'll come up to say Of course Allegro is right goddammit why do ya- The hell do you think they attacked him? Ya know so don't ever ask Eisenman any of these questions on camera but give them a drink or two

09:12 you know a little bit of whiskey and as long as he's off camera i'll tell everything so um... you know uh... allegro in nineteen seventy published the book the sacred mushroom across which was about to probably the most upsetting book to society since darwin's on the original species and that he was promptly ridiculed by not only the other members of the academic team that he worked on, but by other scholars and people all over the place. But if you get in and look at the attacks on him they don't ever... there was like 11 or 15 scholars that even published an attack on him in The Times Literary Supplementer, in The Times newspaper I forget which one

10:01 But, you know they never addressed his actual points. They was always just ad hominem attacks on him and you know we 12 or 11 scholars together without addressing a single point declare Allegro is wrong period slam gavel down right? And so for years I was going through and validating Allegro's citations especially the citations in regard to entheogens or psychedelics, hallucinogens. The word entheogen is a whole other story but that ended up revealing that there was a concerted effort to cover up Allegra's work and in regard to his book the Sacred Mushroom on the Cross

10:47 The attacks against him were headed by a man by the name of R. Gordon Wasson and Wasson was a banker, he worked for JPMorgan Bank as the vice president of propaganda and he is this so-called discoverer of magic mushrooms now Well, let me just state from 2006 to 2008 I was writing my book The Holy Mushroom that went through and analyzed all of the attacks on Allegra's work and showed that all of them were false. And we went all the way down to the original primary citations lined them all up one after the other so anybody could check em' and see right there on the page

11:31 and without exception every single attack on him was bogus. So then that forced us to turn our attention the other direction. Go ahead? Well, I wanted to talk a little bit more about Allegro's actual work because he had some pretty interesting, pretty compelling thoughts on Christianity's origins and how it relates to the mushrooming. And I've heard a lot of interesting examples of the references in the traditions that have their roots in mushrooms but give us a couple of those like what was he really... clear that you know i've since figured out that what he discovered was not using the mushroom for true religiosity that's uh... these call groups essentially

12:16 Use the mushrooms and the drugs for inculcation of others into the cult so that they could maintain control And so if you look at my work even five years ago, I hadn't figured that out yet So I need to make that clear if people read my book astro theology and shamanism The history of the use is correct in that book. I would say for the most part but the application how it was used is incorrect. So, you know I like to be up front and be clear with that because when you understand how these substances are actually a better name for them would be suggestogens they actually cause hyper-suggestibility in the taker And so this is...I've actually written a new paper that I haven't released yet that exposes all of this and the history of the words

13:07 the CIA actually named them at each stage of the research that they were doing and they could actually create those experiences in the person. But what Allegro showed was that Judeo-Christianity was based on a fertility mushroom cult, and they believed in some astrotheology and sun worship, and they believed in basically that the Sun on the ground as below so above the Sun in the sky. The mushroom on the ground, the Sun in the sky And then there was amalgamated fertility worship in there as well because obviously that was the source of life We didn't know where

13:43 Mushrooms had come from at the time, etc. At the time they believed that mushrooms appeared by thunder overnight and didn't know that spores and mycelium existed under the ground or mycelia and the microscopic spores. Yeah, I mean a lot of people who are familiar with this work you know Joe Rogan talks about this a lot and he's a proponent of psychedelics... Joe talks about what aspect? Well the aspect that a lot of traditions in Christianity and Christmas are there as references to psychedelic mushrooms like they grow under pine trees, and they were red and white. Sure I should make it clear that you know as soon as I published my article in 2012 Gordon Wasson the man the legend the myth And I was friends with Joe Rogan for 10 years

14:36 But the day I published that article, he started going all over the internet slandering me and posting false attacks doing radio shows attacking me and lying about the work etc. And basically all of that is just attacks on me. That's what these enlightened spiritual guys want you to believe is they're going around the internet and slandering and name-calling people as somehow enlightened spiritual behavior but I had knew Joe for years and I had turned on Joe onto all that stuff. In fact, if people want to know the truth, I gave Joe his first dose of DMT. Joe got his idea – originally, in 2002 a friend of mine died that worked for KPFK Radio

15:24 where terence had done a lot of his radio shows and she recorded them and uh... you know of course they were already recorded in out in the public and they've been broadcast as books were already out there but in two thousand to by inherited this woman's uh... uh... terence mckinnon archives along with a bunch of other archives that she had on their is probably fifty to maybe seventy hours tops of terms mckenna in these are guys there's probably a hundred fifty hours was lectures out there in the public these days it was probably like maybe a third to a half of what's out there today on the high end, right? And so I initially started out studying all of this McKenna material. I had gone through all of it obviously. I had to get it from cassettes to mp3 and put it on my computer so that you know it was WinMX and Napster back then that people would download it

16:14 you know, from my computer from. I never did any PR, I just thought at the time well I'm not sure about this stuff so I'll just let people figure it out and then as i got deeper into research I started writing my book Astrotheology and Shamanism in 2003 And the more I got into writing and researching of course when your doing research you have to verify peoples citations And just time and time again McKenna's citations didn't check out. So that started, you know that really alerted me to a lot of problems in his work I didn't suspect at all that he was an agent then at the time You know, he was... I hadn't even remembered in his book True Hallucinations about his FBI chase and all this. He's running from FBI and Interpol all over the world and then in a lecture later admits that they caught him and recruited him And of course everybody wants to spin this that the Mushrooms recruited him but if you get into

17:13 historical record of the mushrooms. If you go all the way back down to where we got them from, like Maria Sabina which is the psilocybe mushrooms... the magic mushrooms that everybody takes today. Those came from essentially the Mazatec Indians in Oaxaca, Mexico and Huautla de Jimenez and they came from a woman named Maria Sabina who was a curandera healer which is basically a witch doctor and she was a devout Catholic and Wasson went in there the so-called discover of mushrooms and he had a whole preconceived religion that he forced onto the Mazatec

17:49 And then told everybody that they were magic mushrooms and that this was the religious experience. But if you go in and you actually look at what Maria Sabina had to say about it, she was furious with Watson and she said nobody You know, in our society took the mushrooms for you know to find God or for spiritual purposes. She says they were specifically to heal people from the sicknesses that our culture suffers from and so Wasson spun all of that into this big mystical thing and they sold it And when you look at the word history, in fact of these substances. Early on they were John Smythes and Abram Hoffer and Humphrey Osmond they create the word hallucinogen. And then people had hallucinating experiences. Then in 1957 they create the word psychotomimetic

18:42 which means psychosis mimicking and then everybody started having psychosis mimicking experiences. Then later in 19... And this is the same group making up these names by the way, and then later in 1957 they make up the name psychedelic and then everybody starts having mind manifesting experiences. They die in 1979 Gordon Wasson and Carl Ruck from Boston University who was involved in all of this scandal and Jonathan Ott They create the name Entheogen and then everybody starts having God manifesting experiences. But when you go into the early Harvard records, uh... there's no a m and one of the impure for doctors that was sitting there joking with leary and you can look this up on the internet it's a conversation on lsd nineteen seventy nine it's not black-and-white video but oscar yonagur is sitting there next to larry and he says you know back in their fifties nobody at harvard under this guy studies had any mystical or religious type experiences that the whole thing was a california invention he said and then larry says wonderful they're right

19:45 And that's because nobody at Harvard had these experiences, because as long as it was a hallucinogen you hallucinated. As long it was a psychotomimetic, you have psychosis mimicking experiences but when you grasp that this is all marketing and then these guys were all from the harvard social relations department washington was that a propaganda for jp morgan bank leary was you know harvard social relations larry also wrote to the cia's entrance exams larry was considered the number one personality tester in the country he was no slacky who is the top

20:21 And he was the guy who wrote the test for the CIA. So when you get in and you understand, this agenda then you can see that they really are suggestogens and when Leary and Yonagur one of the two of the CIA's own MKUltra doctors are sitting there admitting that the whole thing was an invention and Larry is bragging and laughing about it You get that they are suggestions and that the whole thing was marketing, was public relations. And so then that forces us essentially to to question the foundation of the whole psychedelic movement, of the counterculture and these things being sold as religions. And then when you get in...and then I'll let you go... Then when you get into the history of it, you see people like scholars like Marlene Dabke-DeRios who died last year she'd been on my show before but in her book she admits that these substances are used for inculcating the youth

21:19 into the culture and they cause hyper-suggestibility. Another MQLTRA doctor, Dr. Sidney Gottlieb on the floor of Congress in 1966 says the same thing and so you know we can see this, we have the history of them marketing these substances changing their names We know it was that exact same group of people that changed their names each time Yeah, man. I think that history of the development or the crafting of the terms is pretty interesting and another part of it i've heard you talk about is the term psychedelic when they're crafting that word they purposely use an E instead of a O and it's the only word that does that English language Right so yeah basically Humphrey Osmond who was an MKUltra doctor he was working with Carl Rogers involved with several MKUltra

22:09 projects he was also uh... eldest huxley's personal doctor is one that does tax leaves for as we can tell huxley was one of the key architects of mq ultra wasn't warning people about all this stuff you is actually designing an orchestrating it a lot of people think well here you know berkeley talking he was warning us But his books and everything are actually a blueprint for how to do this stuff, that he's not warning anybody. And when you get into there is 1,000 page book The Letters of Aldous Huxley and when you get in look at that you can actually see him recommending studies to various MQL2 researchers. He is constantly communicating with many of the MQL2 researchers like George Esterbrooks

22:51 Dr. Andrea Pujaric, Dr. Louis Jolion-West and then of course Humphrey Osmond, Abram Hoffer John Smithies we know all these guys were MKUltra and then there is Huxley always right on top he's always at the lectures he's at the Macy conference lectures that were behind MKUltra He's going on to secret military bases and stuff like this so we know Huxley was one of them but You know, Osmond says that some of these other words fail this criterion of uncontaminated by other associations quote unquote. And so if you... the word psychodelic

23:35 Obviously the first part is psycho, crazy. And so by changing it to psychedelic which is a totally improper formation and no other word in the English language has that P-S-Y-C-H-E formation only psychedelic does and only you know...and it was created by Osmond and Huxley And so, you know we can see the agenda there that they don't want any negative association with the experience because what they wanna do and we can see this in Marshall McLuhan's work that their trying to sell it.

24:12 as a religious experience. And Marshall McLuhan is very clear on the whole thing, and he has a conversation with Leary and in fact when you understand that all that Leary was doing that whole time was Marshall McLuhan's marketing and his own because he was a marketing and social relations expert himself but when you get that he was marketing this stuff then you can gain a totally new perspective of it and I'll read to you this quote here and just uh... pulling it up from um... his conversation with uh... with uh... marsh mccloughan and he says

24:52 It's a little bit long here, but it's worth it I think he says the lunch with Marshall McLuhan at the Plaza was informative Drury Senate hearings and courtrooms are not the platforms for your message Tim you call yourself a philosopher a reformer fine But the key to your work is advertising. You're promoting a product The new and improved accelerated brain. You must use the most current tactics for arousing customer interest. Associate LSD with all the good things that the brain can produce, beauty fun, philosophic wonder religious relevation increased intelligence mystical romance

25:28 The problem is tricky, I said and I being Leary. The opposition has beat us to the punch. The psychiatrists and police propagandist have already stressed the negative which can be dangerous when this mind is re-imprinted under." Okay, re-imprinting they're talking about re-imprinting here okay Okay, and so you know we already know that it's not just about you know getting high they're marketing something and McLuhan is very clear And this is from Larry's book flashbacks by the way He continues, they may be deliberately provoking bad trips. They never mention the 999 good experiences they keep repeating LSD jump out a window then some ill-prepared person goes spinning into new realms or he or she wonders what happens now? Oh yeah jump out of window it's like the over solicitous mother who warned her kids not to push peanuts up their noses

26:24 Exactly, McCloughan agreed McLuhan. That's why your advertising must stress the religious find the God within There's the origin of infusion ladies and gentlemen it was an advertising campaign by Marshall McLuhan This is all fright. This is all frightfully interesting oh there you go Your competitors are naturally denouncing the brain as an instrument of the devil priceless he says And then just to dispel fear You must use your public image, you are the basic product endorser whenever you are photographed

27:03 Smile, wave reassuringly. Radiate courage never complain or appear angry it's okay if you come off as flamboyant and eccentric you're a professor after all but a confident attitude is the best advertisement You must be known for your smile And then McLuhan continues on, you're going to win the war Timothy eventually but you're going to lose some major battles on the way. You are not going to overthrow the Protestant ethic in a couple of years and so you know what we see is one that it's an attack on religion in destroying the ethics and backbone of of what makes the society to we can see that there intentionally trying to sell it as a religion and marketing at but three you know even right here he talks about you don't have your rock-and-roll friends you know write jingles about it and then uh... so let's think for a minute with who were timothy leary's rock n' roll friends well we know rolling stones in the ultimate concert and the murder of

28:05 uh, Meredith and all of this stuff up there. But let me throw this one past you. Picture yourself in a boat on a river with tangerines trees and marmalade skies somebody calls you answer quite slowly a girl with kaleidoscope eyes cellophane flowers of yellow and green towering over your head look for the girl with the sun in her eyes and she's gone Lucy in the sky with diamonds And so you know what we have here is that The Beatles got McLuhan's message to Leary and produced the song. And of course, The Beatles were close friends with Leary Now in Beatles & McLuhan, and there's a book, The Beatles & McLuhan Understanding the Electric Age, the author Thomas Macfarlane says that by 1966, The Beatles knew exactly what McLuhan meant and wanted

28:57 So they wrote the jingles like they were selling a Ford or you know, a can of Campbell's soup or Coca-Cola They created the jingles to sell and market LSD I mean this is interesting man, it seems like basically your mission now is to undo a lot of what you've popularized. You said you gave Joe Rogan his first DMT he's now one the biggest proponents of DMT. You brought out a lot of the Terrence McKenna audio Well the audio was already out there like I said It was all stuff that he had already recorded and released I just happened to inherit Spreaded around a little bit Well I happened to inherit the master copies and put them in a folder with about 500 other

29:40 audio files on Napster and I just let people download them for a while you know, and i didn't do anything to physically popularize them but yeah probably the biggest mistake i made was giving Joe Rogan a hit of DMT. Now you're trying to put the genie back in the bottle. Well, here's the thing is I don't know if it's putting the genie back in a bottle. I had been fooled and tricked by these people myself and when you go along research Is about following the citations to the conclusion You don't come up with your conclusion first And then force all of the citations So the more I researched The more I discovered something was wrong

30:22 discovered that Wasson was CIA back in 2007-2008, I didn't realize at the time that all of these other guys involved were dirty as well. I just thought it was Wasson. What was up with Wasson? But when I started investigating Wasson And getting into his primary documents, I went through Yale, through Princeton, Columbia University. All these different universities that had letters and things from Austin so then i get all of these letters and see all of these personal letters he's written back-and-forth to intelligence guys

31:00 And then you have to think, okay well I can go along with the story that everybody's saying that this guy was good or I can expose that he was a CIA agent and then when I got into the MKUltra documents I discovered in there that it was actually Wasson who requested the $2,000 from the Gestechter Fund and that he is the guy who was in charge of MQLTRA subproject 58. That actually became The Life Magazine article from May 13 1957 So you know I could have shut up and gone with the flow And probably made a lot of money and been a really good agent man for him or

31:36 I could stand up and tell the truth, and say hey this is wrong. And at first I thought that most of the scholars were just incompetent and they had just based their work on secondary citations that didn't go all the way down to the primary But the day I released that Wasson article, Gordon Wasson, The Man and The Legend and the Myth. It's like all of a sudden all these people who you think are your friends or just suddenly they turn on you They don't ever address a single point in the research And mind you most of them are authors writers and researchers and they should be able to go point by point over the facts but all of them avoid the topics and then start using the exact same attacks that they used on Allegro not ever addressing anything that he published

32:18 But just attacking him and that's exactly what Joe Rogan and Simon Powell And you know all of these guys do Graham Hancock is the latest going around doing this stuff Yeah, and so this isn't a important part of the puzzle. This Gordon Watson's situation how mushrooms came to be because uh pretty much what you laid out like Like, I've looked up and I guess the conventional view not saying it's the right one but for the people who are listening who might be a little confused. The conventional idea is that the CIA heard about Gordon Watson's mushroom trips to Mexico from his article in Life Magazine and well they thought these mushrooms could be useful for mind control. Yeah, well some people think that the Gershwicker Fund just was gonna just fund his trip to go get some mushrooms So he was like yeah sure i'll do it

33:08 Yeah, well you know and that's not at all how the story went. The official version of the story which is repeated almost exactly in all of the books post-1979 originally came from John Marks' book The Search for the Manchurian Candidate and in there I think it's like pages 110 to 120 or something like that – it's right in that area You can see that it's actually Wasson who wrote the section of John Marks' book about Wasson. Now when you get in and you actually look up who John Marks was, well who was he? Well...he was the director of this little department called The Bureau Of Intelligence And Research Oh! So he was a

33:55 Director of an intelligence agency oh i got it okay and then when you look at the introduction of his book he says that wasson and half man in james more assisted him with the offering of a book. Aha! And then you see Wasson's cameraman, Alan Richardson admit that John Marks claims that James Moore infiltrated us and it was James Moore who got the money. But when you actually go in and read the MKUltra documents—and you can see every other scholar since then has lied about this—

34:30 But go in and actually read the letter. It's clearly, you know... And I have hundreds of copies of Wasson's letterheads from other letters that I've pulled from these universities. It is very clear it is his letterhead and of course the CIA has it blocked out but its very clear it is his. If you read every single thing there are things that Wasson did. You know, Wasson says I've been on four prior trips to this region in search of blob, you know the mushrooms etc James Moore hadn't been there before The first time that James Moore went was the 1956 trip with Wasson as far as we know and all the records show, but Wasson had done trips with... Oh shoot now I can't even think of the name. But from 1953 to 1963 Wasson did a trip every year so he did 10 trips total and James Moore was just one of them but we can see Wasson's private letters like recently I published a video Psychedelic Intelligence where we show on screen

35:30 wassons letters between alan dallas the you know the former head of the cia and uh... you know talking about recruiting people to the century club where wasson analysis actually were both members along with dollars We can see, you know, Wasson's letter requesting that money directly from the Gesticter Fund. It was not James Moore as is the official story every single version of the story out there says that James Moore approached Wasson and offered Wasson $2,000 which back then in 1956 money it was roughly like $17,000 so far enough to pay for the trip and airplane and all this kind of stuff

36:11 But, you know so this story comes out of Mark's book and it spreads out from there. And then another thing that you can see in Wasson's letter and it's like I said is very blatantly clear he's talking about Roger Heim there, he's talking about the team and he says we're going to need personnel that are going with us. So Wasson requests the money AND is talking about the team that he wants to put together under the CIA and not only that we have Wasson's personal letters with DCI Alan Dulles just weeks before the Life Magazine article was published. We have Wasson hanging out with Dulles at The Century Club and at the Council on Foreign Relations, we have... there is another researcher Bruce Adamson who's a big JFK assassination researcher and you know there is in the CFR archives of Princeton University and I've gone through and I've pulled every single citation on Wasson that Adamson had listed it in his books

37:12 and every single one of them checked out. And Watson is right there in all of these CFR conferences with all the key people that were suspected being involved in the Kennedy assassination, and of course Kennedy fired Alan Dulles and Alan Dulles who was one of the heads of the council on foreign, or of the MKUltra program in the CIA. And Kennedy was shutting the CIA down because of the MKUltra program and all this stuff that the CIA and Dulles and Huxley were doing. And so then he gets killed right? And then Dulles does the investigation on his murder!

37:49 dollars was in charge of that investigation so i mean you know obviously you know it's it and then if you can get any closer but and not only that by huxley died on the exact same day that that kennedy was assassinated and huxley also recruited leary on the same day that kennedy was elected answers though yet well you know it's because he had i think the kennedy was really here that actually was really kennedys arch nemesis essentially And he's running all these things. See, Kennedy I think and you can find this in their comments but Jay Stevens in his writings talks about how the politicians wanted to uplift the masses and then the Huxleys and everybody wanted to do a direct attack on the minds of the masses

38:35 And that they were going to use the psychedelics to do this attack rather than uplift everyone. So I think when Kennedy pieced it all together and he realized what the CIA was doing, he wanted to shut the CIA down. The claim is that Laura Huxley dosed Aldous and put in his will what he really wanted but if you get in there and read this stuff Laura claims, well only I could interpret the message from his will. You know it was really ambiguous and only I could do it so basically you know she just made it up but in his letters you can see that Huxley thought he was going to be getting better and then who did Laura

39:13 call before she dosed Huxley to find out more information on it. She called none other than the CIA's own MKUltra doctor, Dr. Sidney Cohen who is also a friend with Larry and at the party with Oscar Yonager that people can see on that black and white video we mentioned earlier. And Larry talks in the middle of that they were all agents and they were all in their underground cells. So Laura calls Sydney Gottlieb to ask him if you know he's ever dosed anybody in the process of dying and Then she goes and doses him after she talks to this MKUltra doctor, and then she claims that it was in his will well Why was she calling Sidney Gottlieb asking them? If it's ever been done before and all of this stuff And then when you get that they're really suggestogens and that Kennedy was really

40:02 They were like the nemesis of each other. You couldn't even make this stuff up, so then she doses them and essentially when you get that they're suggestogens and they cause hyper-suggestibility ... If you think of the ayahuasca healers down in South America or in Mexico et cetera You know, they have all of this witchcraft that goes with it and they might tell you something bad and then the locals will believe it. And they'll go get that disease and die from it right? We see Maria Sabina treating this 17 year old boy down in Huala de Jimenez and he dies weeks later as well so its very possible that Laura actually suggested

40:48 Huxley to his death at the same time that Kennedy died. I think, you know...I think that the information and contradictions in her statements and in his letters and then the timing with Kennedy not only hiring Leary at the moment Kennedy was elected but Huxley dying at that moment and they're covering up all of Huxley's involvement with uh...you know the psychedelic revolution encounter culture right it's just You couldn't make this stuff up. That's why I don't care for fiction that much because, you know this stuff when you go down to the primary documents and look up what these guys were actually doing it's way better than fiction. So knowing that they've been used for mind control knowing that these psychedelics have been used to influence the culture i mean you yourself have done them over a thousand times does this information lead you to put no value on those experiences?

41:42 Well, today I think well you know. I could probably have taken them 10 or 20 times or maybe 100 and probably gotten as much or more out of them and what would i have been doing in all that time that I wasn't pillow sitting and navel gazing under their influence? Im not going to say that I didn't gain anything out of it but you know you could probably get just as much out of one or two if you do it properly um...as a thousand or hundreds or whatever you want to call it, right? Whatever number you want to put on it. But what benefit that I did get out of it was now I can sit here with you Greg and talk about how it was used for control so and I've gone through the whole system being an ethnobotanist and ethnomicologist for 20 years having read most of the literature out there

42:32 Now, at least I can look at it from the other side instead of promoting it and saying hey. It's like being a whistleblower you work somewhere for years or whatever and you believe in it all sudden one day something goes wrong and wakes you up and go oh this is all wrong. And that what happened and what was happening with me As I was doing about 55 interviews with the world's leading psychedelic experts, and each of the interviews were being transcribed to go into this massive thousand-page book that I never ended up publishing. It's been finished for a couple years but it's

43:09 Basically what happened was in the process of doing all of these interviews with guys like Dave Nichols and I mean you name it. I interviewed, just about any of them that I get my hands on any other the top scholars from the field and After about two years of doing all these interviews It started creating a fishbowl effect And I could start see that there was something else going on there That wasn't quite right You know, and then in 2009 this guy by the name of Gino Denning contacts me. And he can see a lot of the frustration I was having dealing with audience and stuff on how they would just attack the presenter and never the actual information. So he presents to me The Trivium. And I was sick at that time. He sent me the email. I couldn't get it open. Then I was getting ready to go Peru

44:02 visit my ex's family and to get some treatment down there, etc., for 15 year ongoing stomach problems. And I finally get this email open and read it, and I'm just like oh my goodness. This is what we didn't have when we wrote A&S. This was what...I kept spotting all of these sevens in the Seven Little World Arts but I couldn't figure out how it fit in. He basically just handed it all to me then we did a few shows together. That was really kicked into high gear. Initially I was going It's still there, but you know put the trivium and quadrivium in with this massive book series that I did Hoping that that would be enough But then as you know time progressed we began to realize that it wasn't just Watson Who is the dirty one? That most of the psychedelic stars were agents. We were asking the wrong questions

44:57 You know which one, which of these guys were agents it was which of these guys weren't agents. Well let's talk about that a minute because I love-I really do get a lot of insight from Terrence McKenna you know i'm a fan of his and a lot of the audiences Give me an example of what insight you get from him To paraphrase, one speech of his I really like is about the cultural operating system and shedding that. So what are you really getting when you shed your culture? Now what is the culture? The culture has this root cult but essentially he's selling this idea that your family and local health things are just bad. You've got to have a new culture okay

45:42 Well, if your family and your extended family is what keeps you cohesive in times of trouble. If the government collapses, the money system collapses etc., you pretty much don't care if you have that family and extended family backing behind you but what Terrence sells as feminism and humanism that the culture is all bad that we need to get rid of uh... you know the only the population should only be twenty five percent male and seventy five percent female and that we need to kill any extra male babies and those are mckinney's words he was into promoting basically chinese communist policies on men here and i've got quotes on that up in my on my site but when we realize that culture is the backbone of society

46:30 But the outside attackers, the elites have to destroy that and get us you know if they can create a bunch of single moms who don't have families and extended families that are then reliant upon state and social security. And welfare in this kind of crap than these single moms aren't going to retaliate furthermore single moms if you have twenty five percent males and seventy five percent females will guess what those females does it open many of those females won't have men and they will be reliant on the state so again he's selling socialist policies now i interviewed a couple years ago this woman on my show karen strohan and she runs a youtube channel called girl rights one and she's done

47:14 extensive research for years on feminism, and she's exposed the whole thing as a total fraud. And so, you know McKenna was always promoting humanism feminism when you get into his ideas though His ideas come from a handful of people. Most of his ideas really weren't his You know he quotes, you know Aldous Huxley a lot who of course we know is a eugenicist and headed MKUltra Alfred North Whitehead He was a big fan of he's in the cybernetics cybernetics comes from the word Kyber Netease which was basically government control He's at the Esalen Institute, he is a scholar in residence there. We know for a fact that the Esalen Institute was a CIA front. He constantly cites guys like John B.S. Haldane. The world is not stranger than you suppose it's stranger than you can suppose. Well John B. S. Haldane was a well-known eugenicist

48:06 Okay, so again you know he's taking this stuff. He cites Marshall McLuhan all the time. Marshall McLuhan was a media manipulator but then McKenna admits that he was a propagandist. He admits that he was in propaganda for 15 years So again we have Wauson, Propaganda Leary social relations. You know propaganda and social relations are sister studies Edward Bernays created the field of public relations and then harvard all of these guys had social relations this is what mckinna was selling so we have to look at it let's look at the feminism thing real quick so i just don't know isn't there saying i mean that's not really an aspect that i've really love from a can of blood i am against the like

48:51 the aggressive warmongering male dominated society i can see that yeah so when you say male donated society i don't even get that it doesn't make all leaders look at all the others okay so like a mail right all leaders of the world are i think this is our only german prime minister right now as female britain england's story about how to have a female queen Well, it's a broad sweeping generalization but you know... Throughout time like... Are you gonna let me talk or? Yeah. Okay. I mean think it's been like 90% you but I'm just saying that... I thought that you were interviewing me

49:28 Right right i'm just not trying to be confrontational, I am just trying to make my point so you can respond. Well I know what your point is and if you let me respond then I will respond. Sure! Okay we are sold this and actually go through the literature and go through what Karen Strauhan has exposed for years now on her YouTube channel on MyShow etc It's very much quite the opposite of that. And in fact, you know not only that but lesbian couples have just as high or higher violence rates OK? We don't see any lesser wars and countries that are run by women Historically, the reason why women were at home protecting is because there was a division of labor. The men went out into the evil world to deal with all of the badness and wars and crap going on

50:18 back to the women. Now, if it's a patriarchal male-dominated society men are so bad then why are all the boys put in ditches with guns and ordered to kill each other? Why when a ship is sinking are the women and children saved and the men killed Well the men aren't killed, but I think that's just out of respect and the desire to protect people. You know women and children they keep the species going on but to get back... And men don't essentially so what you're saying is that we're disposable and yet you're arguing that it's a male-dominated society at the same time? Man! I'm just saying when i look historically at world leaders I see 95% male and they are responsible for a lot of aggression in war and other problems

51:01 nurtured, raised the children. The men brought supplies back to the women okay? The men supplied the women with whatever they needed Oh honey you know if you nurture me and my children I'll give you whatever you want Honey oh do you need a machine that will wash the dishes? I'll get you that! Oh honey Do you want something thats going to bring light at night time? I'll get you that! Oh honey Do you want some- Something that makes music when there is no band around When your busy feeding the children? I'll get ya that And so we have radio and we have dishwashers, and we have all of these things because of the dedication to women. There is a different story there that feminism completely ignores and distorts as part of its agenda. By the way that was more BS that came out of the Esalen Institute as well but for your audience that's actually interested in getting more information on this I do recommend they go to Karen Strawins

51:56 girl writes what page on YouTube and watch everything that she's got there. She's got many dozens of videos, it is going to be very hard when people wake up to this. It was one of the hardest things because I used to believe Terrence was right on feminism and I used to argue just like you but when you actually dump the facts in the propaganda bullshit from the propaganda masters out of Esalen You'll see that there is a whole different story they omitted all of these very key facts. And Karen, and then there's somebody who was on Red Ice Radio last year who exposed all of this stuff as well. So I recommend your audience go out and get in and actually study that information and you'll see that there is a lot of verifiable information that completely contradicts the official version of the story that has been sold to us as feminism

52:47 Well, I mean yeah man. I'm interested...I know there's a lot of manipulation out there and i'm interested in uncovering it By the way Gloria Steinhem who invented feminism was a CIA agent just to little FYI there I mean you know how many agents can get in a picture cycling through before you get oh this was CIA Right. But I'm not interested in arguing further about feminism, your audience can look at the facts or ignore them That's just right and that's just one aspect but another thing McKenna was about was anti-materialism like i'm against the mainstream shallow consumerist culture I think that does exist Who created that?

53:26 Let's let's I think the elite. I think you'll eat in corporations Okay, the elite incorporate okay So where did marketing and public relations come from it came from a man people who wanted to make no It came from a man by the name of edward brunaise who worked with gordon wasson Who worked with the very guys that sold us this movement first? They get us to go out and be consumers And then they blame us for consumerism they marketed the consumerism to us That was the Bernaysian, Wasonian crowd that marketed this stuff to us. And then they turn around and they blame us for being consumers and materialists!

54:05 You know i think materialism goes beyond the fifties and sixties that they has echoes a lot further back than that well you had people who are really concerned with survival in building in the eighteen hundreds and before then marketing and public relations i mean if you even go any look at a serious catalog from the late eighteen hundred's it talks about needs. You know, this does this. It does this it does that it will serve this need if they didn't you know oh you'll get girls and all of your fears in your propaganda they didn't use all these fallacies to market it to you they told you what did and you either needed any body or you didn't

54:46 And it was as simple as that. Marketing didn't really come in until the understanding of public relations propaganda and how to use it really came into effect, and we had guys like Walter Lippmann and Edward Bernays who both worked with Watson at The Century Club and who marketed this stuff they were all working together these were the guys who marketed this you know see yeah the problem is the elites and the Zionists in these groups, they create these problems and they market them to society. Oh look what we can do! We can turn them all into good little consumers and then we're going to get really rich." And then they turn around and blame the population for the compulsory education, the dumbing down, lack of trivium education... They turned around and blamed people for that

55:30 and say you know what there's too many people now they all screwed up they're too dumb now we got to get rid of them because they screwed up. You know it's like the... Well I blame the people for materialism, too, to an extent yes they're being manipulated but you have a responsibility as well like i'm not a super materialistic person Okay okay and you're going in the opposite extreme I mean there's something else too whereas You need to build for your future and have that family and backbone. And it's okay, I mean obviously you don't have children but when you do have children you want to be able to provide a future for them thanks for them leave things for them as well. But let me just read you this quote For if you the rulers suffer your people to be ill-educated in their manners to be corrupted from their infancy and then punish them for those crimes to which their first education dispose

56:16 What else could be concluded from this but that you first make thieves and outlaws and then punish them? Sir, Thomas Moore. And that's from the early 16th century Okay, and so in other words You don't dumb people down you don't take the trivium away You don't spend all of this effort to dumb people down The CIA if if if People were this bad the CIA and the government and the elites wouldn't spend so much effort To hold people down into manipulate and control them No doubt, no doubt we're being dumbed down. They wouldn't force us through the compulsory education system and then you know you don't blame people oh well they should have figured it out and known they were being manipulated when they've been inculcated through this compulsory education system since the time there were five Yeah but I figured it out, you figured it out... I figured it out

57:03 Yeah, okay. But you know here we're sitting here arguing over who is to blame? Do we blame the people for being PR'd and marketed by guys like Watson and Bernays who sold this very crap to us And then turn around and sell us the religion? What was Huxley selling in all of this Oh look, you know World War II happened. All of this war and all of this stuff and it's all the men causing all of the war Look at all of the men doing all this look at all the people there so bad no It was the elites it was staged it was eugenics You get the boys in the ditches to kill themselves off for population control And then you blame the masses for causing the war in the first place The people didn't

57:42 Cause where I've been all over the world people pretty much just want to get along and take care of their family agreed Agreed the elite cause wars, and I definitely agree that's a little bit cause wars and genics is part of it Okay So then why the hell is Huxley and elites and McKenna and Leary and McLuhan? attacking the population And not the elites I mean the population that's a broad term. That's not everybody but... That segment that was targeted was the masses of the people Too much materialism, when McKenna criticizes mainstream culture... Let me just say a sentence man Hold on you don't attack the population for your own propaganda

58:25 Man, just let me say a sentence here. So if McKenna is attacking the mainstream culture and there is an alternative culture he's anti-materialistic and materialism leads to debt and that is how the elite control us. Materialism leads to debt? No! Yes it does over materialism... No it doesn't what leads to debt How could it not?! Jesus Christ because you need a goddamn credit card and you need bankers in marketing to sell people to go buy all of this stuff People that puts you into debt buying credit cards put you into debt under their control. Don't you need a banking system that's based on inflationary money and all this shit before you can even do that?

59:03 Well, look I don't think either one of us like the banking system here do we? That's irrelevant. What i'm talking about is you have precursors you can't just blame the people well they go buy things and that what causes debt no they're marketed these things there they're not taught critical thinking in the media then their marketed to their emotions okay but people have some responsibility for themselves as well yes they do I agree with you but they have to be able to get the proper information in the first place You propagandize them like Bernays and McKenna and Leary, then turn around and blame them for what they did. You uplift them you give them the proper information show them how it's done so that they can understand it clearly And yes, you can say that they need to be responsible but you don't hold them down and put your boot on their face while offering a hand up saying you guys are too freaking stupid

59:56 Right. I don't think either one of us think that that's the way things should be, but like for me an example... All i'm saying is you can't blame the population for what the elites have created this is a system of social control across the board they created the problem and then they blame the people for their own creations And then they'll try a new social control program and then that one Fs up and then they blame the people They create all this marketing in consumerism Then they blame the people look at the pollution you cause it's bullshit. They are the ones who marketed this stuff They are the ones who are copable and responsible I mean, yeah They are granted You know We don't have the resources The individuals don't have a read the resource has plenty of resources until you know what was man? What was man exactly? What was getting the women to

1:00:50 into getting them to vote. What was that about? Let me just ask you. Well, I know this story. Yeah, getting the women to vote they wanted a tax on men and I know this Okay well and it's sold for women's liberation It was such a bad voting is bullshit anyway so granting some of the right to vote doesn't really do anything for me The whole point is to get them out of the family and into the factory and paying taxes So that backbone of society is broke it's no longer understand everything that they do everything i push is to generate more revenue and that's why i think this materialism on us but you create the consumer you get people not reliant upon themselves, not be you know.

1:01:34 getting stuff out of their own farms and their own ranches, etc. But buying things and then you market to their needs once you've broken that family background and then you don't turn around and blame them once you've done it Right, and I don't know how this descended into such madness man But I just wanted to have a conversation about you know McKenna's points And was he oh was he exactly later or wasn't he? Obviously. He was a manipulator look at it It's not obvious to me or the audience we're trying to have a conversation To make the case for that if you let me talk well will I've got you talking

1:02:12 But dude, all you want to do is defend feminism and defend McKenna because he's your hero. Okay? He's not my hero man! He's just a guy I think has some insightful things to say... And I asked what insightful things and then i showed him... ...and I brought up consumerism and you brought up feminism I didn't bring up that. I broke it down how this stuff you brought up culture is what you brought up and i showed How that was designed to break the family, I showed how feminism was designed to break the family, I showed Yeah, I think that's interesting. How Bernays marketed this stuff as an attack on society Bernays worked with Wasson, Bernays trained Wasson, Wasson was the head of propaganda

1:02:51 for JP Morgan Bank. He's the so-called discoverer of magic mushrooms McKenna then went all over the world promoting mushrooms McKenna was also PR they're all out of social relations you know there you know they're all a part of this same group it's not like you know McKenna was the one superhero really good guy no McKenna was dirty as hell Well that's what I want to get to, the evidence that shows he was dirty as hell. I'm interested in it- Okay but number one... I think its within the realm of possibility, im not saying its impossible Well we have primary evidence He admitted number one that he was recruited by them Where? In the Esalen talk thats been posted on my website for two years

1:03:33 Okay, but for the audience listening you know make the case for them if you could okay? Well your you know. You're acting like there's no evidence for any of this so you know let's look at the evidence So uh you know McKenna and his book true hallucinations talks about throughout the book how he was on the run from The FBI and Interpol now in his brother's new book After I had contacted his brother, his brother slipped in a couple of paragraphs that are 100% contradictory to Terrence's own story. Of course, Terrence is a primary citation and his brother would be secondary. You always go with the primary first."

1:04:11 And so, true hallucinations your audience can read page 22-166 179 186 where he's talking about his FBI and Interpol chase. Now at Esalen which is a CIA MKUltra front we have McKenna in a talk from Let's say I'm just trying to figure out what the date of the talk was. I've got it somewhere listed down here, but he says uh... I'm curious about one thing What is important for you to do this? McKenna says i wonder myself Do you mean am I the alien ambassador whether I like it or not and then he laughs and he says well often when asked this question I've said It beats honest work

1:04:57 I mean, my brother is a PhD in three subjects and works in hard science. And yet I don't think it's brought him immense happiness not that he's despondent But I was kind of a slider, you know? So he's right here. He's saying it beats honest work and he's a slider now He says certainly when i reached lotteria in 1971 I had a price on my head by the FBI and I was running out of money I Was at the end of my rope And then they recruited me and said you know with a mouth like yours there's a place for you in our organization And I've worked in deep background positions about which the less said, the better. And then about 15 years ago they shifted me into public relations and I've been there to the present." That's a primary

1:05:43 Straight-out admission now. You know, that's an interesting quote especially towards the end at the beginning I think he was being kind of well Of course, he just asked it He's a PR guy But if you follow the story I just gave the page numbers from his book true hallucinations about as FBI and Interpol chase We have a very clear and concise no contradictions flow through the story page 22 166 179 186 and then his explanation at ESLIN, which is a CIA front organization yet again founded by Aldous Huxley who ran MKUltra. We have him admitting this in front of a lecture there now A lot of people will say well it was the mushrooms that recruited him he was talking about aliens well again like I said when we go into the historical record when we go all the way back to what

1:06:37 Maria Sabina said that the mushrooms were used for they were never used for spirituality. They had five uses for the mushrooms healing finding a lost wife, finding a missing donkey, finding someone who had gone to another country and one other thing nowhere to... Finding a lost wife? That's interesting Nowhere does it say anything about deep background, about aliens or UFOs About public relations or any of these things. Sure how would they use it to find like lost items? That's interesting Well I guess too you know put yourself in a different place so you can think about things differently where you may have misplaced something Maybe

1:07:18 I mean do you think that kind of alludes to the idea that mushrooms give some type of insight or unlock some type of... Well no it's just, y'know it can give you a sort-of third person position where you might be able to see things from a different angle than you might not otherwise be able to see. But I would say as far like if your trying to appeal to magic there or whatever then I'm not gonna follow ya there No, I'm just talking man. And like when McKenna says... Let me- When he started that quote that you read... Let me just read a few quotes here for- Well let me comment on the quote you already read real quick and then we'll read some more quotes if that's okay. Yeah, you know Joe Rogan and Graham Hancock they want everybody to believe that blatant statement about the price on his head in the FBI and deep background and public relations That was actually The Mushroom talking so I get it

1:08:11 Well, at the beginning of that quote when he says it beats honest work and he's talking about his brother who has an honest job. I think that's the crux of what I was attracted to because corporate work i've done it for ten years and its socks you know that's the consumerism loop them talking about the track that the elite have got us on the bank so you think working for a corporation is a consumer not being a slave to someone else why don't white i think people are instead of held to i think if people are compelled to work for corporations for jobs they do want to do with their life because they're stuck in debt right so so what you're saying is that you wanna dishonest work rather than honest work

1:08:53 I think he's being facetious when he says honest work. I think he's saying from the perspective of the masses it's honest work quote-unquote Well often when i've been asked this question, I've said it beats honest work Right that's a joke Well, to me if he is a damn propaganda guy as he admits in the very next line Is he being honest? Wouldn't that's that's it like a joke I would make. I would say that hosting a podcast beats honest work like going instead of working for- Dude a propagandist is a paid liar That's what a propagandists does But wouldn't you say like in a joking manner man and a joking manner when you say what you do beats working at Footlocker 40 hours a week

1:09:34 I work twelve to sixteen hours a day okay right when you say it beats having like a corporate job like that is where independent but how is that you know what does that have to do with honest work you can follow your own passion and have on us work you don't have to go be a PR guy and start lying everybody but conventionally honest work is like you know go and get a good job with the good corporation a good secure job or you can't i'll get it but job of those small local company owned by one year neighbors are something to doesn't have to be some big corporation there's a lot of answers what would you rather go have somebody you know take a gun and pointed at everybody else has had in steel their money so that she has some nice little communist system like you know like the soviet massacred a hundred fifty million people and under

1:10:19 No man, I'm anti-violent. And I think McKenna preached anti violence as well. McKenna preached anti violence? Really?! I think... You think! Okay well let me read you this quote right here because all of the socialist crap and feminism that he promoted Feminism is based on socialism which is essentially going and forcing other people at gunpoint to do your bidding But this is a quote from McKenna and this talk is Speaking the Unspeakable. And it's found in the question answer at one hour and 11 minutes, and this is a summary of long couple paragraphs here but he says The Mushroom said but since you brought it up I would be very interested in seeing a set of social policies tax incentives medical policies

1:11:06 insurance policies put in place to limit male birth. This is the way to feminize the human race, I am a feminist as a humanist, i advocate reduction and male birth." Now how was that non-violent? How was that trying not propagandized women to not raise babies and if you read the rest of this section there he's actually talking about women shouldn't take care their male babies! That's not nonviolence Well that I hadn't heard and i actually think that's a solid point. That's a good point you made, we're trying to have a conversation here man And I thought you had studied some of my work but... Well I did! I studied a good amount of it but I missed that quote man These are on the front page of the website, I've got several articles up there on McKenna My Manufacturing The Deadhead article where we talk about how McKenna... Right well fuck me I guess

1:11:56 Hold on, we talk about in the Manufacturing the Deadhead how McKenna was selling neo-feudalism and a new dark age and how he's dumbing down the kids now. Jay Stevens in the introduction of McKenna's book states... Let me just read this to you for how nonviolent McKenna was in his ideas. Our appetite for simplicity has caused us to compress the chaos of the 1960s into one monolithic youth revolt. But there were two philosophies then among the revolutionaries on how the world might be remade, one path endorsed by political power and using advantage to raise consciousness and save the world. The other path proposed an attack on the consciousness itself using a controversial and soon outlawed family of psychochemicals, the psychedelics that is from the introduction

1:12:47 McKenna's the invisible landscape. Yeah man I mean to me that just sounds like social commentary he didn't really side with one way or the other. Dude look around you, look at what Dave McGowan has exposed with music, look how society has been degradated! Right? I don't like mainstream society The whole thing wasn't about elevating us, the whole thing was to get us to stop producing and stop manufacturing and stop doing everything so the elites could leave us behind. So that we would self-eugenicize Okay, it's not about elevating us. If you're not reproducing you're not elevating You're not evolving anything when you dead you're done that's it It's gone they're talking about elevating them and get getting rid of the masses They're talking about an attack on consciousness itself And that is what the entire manufacturing The Deadhead article is About That attack on culture and how they sold The Deadhead the hippie look this song-and-dance have how

1:13:46 how they marketed the whole thing and how Edward Bernays and Wasson were behind that. I hear you man. It's an interesting perspective, i'm not trying to say that i can't entertain the possibility... Just go in and read the citations and look at the facts and put your biases and your heroes aside and then you'll be able to understand clearly what the citations say! I'm not just making this stuff up every single claim that i've made in all of my work goes back to primary evidence that anyone can check so if you put things aside and look at the evidence it's right in front of you You know, the manufacturing of the Deadhead article it's been up for 15 months. Anybody can go through and they can read how this stuff was broken down, how Huxley worked with them, how Wasson was CIA, how The Grateful Dead worked with the CIA. We've got videos of Bob Weir bragging about his hanging out with General McQuinn at the Bohemian Grove et cetera

1:14:49 Very young yeah that pretty much does it for us man i find your research to be really interesting even though a challenges a lot of my thoughts on psychedelics and counterculture like this like is said its not about challenging your thoughts or beliefs it's about getting down to the facts you know put your believes your thoughts your emotions aside put him in the jar. Dig down to the primary citations. Did Jan make this up? Or did McKenna actually say this stuff, do these guys actually do these things can I verify Can I go all the way down to the primary documents that Jan has provided and check them And if you can and if they check out You know it's true If you can't and nothing checks out, then I made it up. It's as simple as that. Don't focus on me." And I keep repeating that and it really bothers me when people try to always focus on the presenter they want to kill the messenger right? But stop that behavior and just focus on the content of the message and can you verify the information

1:15:44 And if you go from that approach, you'll learn a lot more in life and you'll go a lot further. Name-calling people and attacking them because they challenge your beliefs doesn't make them wrong it just makes you a name caller Fair, fair point. Before we go do you want to give the people a little info about your website or where they can continue down this rabbit hole of yours? Sure well those who want to get into studying the Trivium they can go to triviumeducation.com that's www.triviumeducation.com and then the main website is Gnosticmedia.com that's g-n-o-s-t-i-c media dot com and of course I'm the publisher of John Allegro book The Sacred Mushroom on the Cross

1:16:31 and you can just go to JohnAllegro.org Right on, excellent man! Well it was great to meet you at ParanoiaCon Today was fun sorry you got upset I tried to be pretty respectful of our little disagreement there but hopefully had a good time? I think...I think you were the one that got upset but anyway I don't know man, i'm pretty easy going. Well, I just like to stick to the facts and I don't like to go down all these emotional rabbit holes as long you're checking what you think where did McKinnick get these ideas? And when you start realizing that his largest influences were guys like John B.S Haldane and Michael Coe

1:17:08 uh... the jesuit priest here to hear this or dana and and uh... john bs held a man you know all these guys regenesis and and this is the program that mckinney sold him when he realized it just like all the others he's just another you know p r propaganda guy then you can step away from the emotions and see the information for what it really is fair well keep doing what you do men and not take care yourself out there are real controversial guy You too, Greg. Take care of yourself man There we have it folks an interesting episode indeed I just am not sure that some of those quotes were conclusive enough Maybe I'm in denial either way you can make up your own mind about those disagreements and in the second hour Jan did present some interesting info on diet and getting wheat out of your repertoire He's given his opinions on Graham Hancock

1:18:01 who Jan has been butting heads with and also throws Alan Watts and Jarrett Kerouac in the MKUltra camp. I don't agree with it all, I don't think the case was all that strong, I think the connections are a little loose... But i tried to be respectful didn't resort any name-calling got a little frustrated with being talked over but Man, if you are interested in those other topics definitely sign up for THC+. You get the extended two-hour show every five days for just $5 a month. And there are some really interesting shows on the roster, Wild Stuff. I would tell you all about it but that's not my style So here is an appropriately titled song from our good buddy Adam Gowrightly to play us out called Psychedelic Secret Agent Man and that's going to be it for me today Go check out the new shirt at conspirates.net Your move MKUltra! Your fucking move

1:18:55 I'm the DOJ, I'm the TIA. Sergeant with secret station man. Psycho tip, working for a croissant. double sevening and up the 90s

1:19:52 Mind control assassins, programmer threats Slip the best side of you and me in Talk to secret agents, man these lights are a pain The police ignites such as can be used He jumped through the window down to his death Until there's the aftertune, take away his breath I'm watching you strike a window, turn out to the sky It's like a dancing legend man, take away his breath Thrill me Oh kill me

1:20:53 chill me to the bone. Leave me, fill me with tears my mind is blown I'm

1:21:47 For presidents and even our own We try to write some laws in the credit loan The cross-stake bonds are adding to the void I'm bound to assassins whose wills are destroyed By the CRB