Gordon White | Jungle Spirits, Gnostic Times, & Decolonizing Our Ideas

00:00 Embrace yourself, because you're about to dive into another free first hour episode of the Higher Side Chats. And we just want to let you know that whether your looking for a companion through your paranoid insomnia, entertaining yourself through one of life's mundane activities or trying to ward off the internal screams from all those sad smothered souls around the office THC is here and you should know that every episode of the higher side chats has an entire second hour for plus members Sign up at thehiresitechatsplus.com and you'll get years of Plus Show archives, lifetime forum access, a special invite to Greg Carlwood's monthly joint sessions MP3s of THC music bonus episodes tour videos and 10% off t-shirts grinders and whatever else ends up in The HireSite Store It's $8 a month that you won't miss so become a plus member and treat yourself in these troubled times always action packed and commercial free

00:51 Which means you'll unfortunately never hear my voice again. 1930s President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed the nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the fireside chats His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times From 1930 and I deal with a different kind of fire For a new era of worldly frustration we offer a fresh conversation, I'm Greg Carlwood These are the Higher Side Chats. The power of Christ compels you, dear people! How we doing out there? Drinking a little drink smoking a little smoke from sunny San Diego I'm Greg Carlwood and while i still do proudly display my conspiracy culture merit badges on my well-tailored slim fit pinstripe vest of justice in recent times it's been getting harder and harder to do so

01:51 The fact is that conspiracy culture has been mainstreamed and thus the waters have gotten muddier than Woodstock in the rain. And some of us have gotten so backwards that we've put our faith in not-so-democratically elected presidents, salivate slack jawed over another military intelligence approved nothingburger and UFO disclosure or shout from the digital hilltops of the very social media mental prisons the sorcerers of Silicon Valley have so graciously crafted for us Like any good Kansas City Shuffle, it seems that while keyboard warriors decode another Trump tweet and measure curvature on computer screens they've lost sight of the corporate criminal class the ever-expanding empire and the deep reflection of what reality even is in our place in it. In fact people will tell you magic isn't real while they simultaneously sacrifice their sovereignty on the altars of convenience and distraction

02:45 I empathize though, because the western world is an ocean of social engineering hooks both new and old freshly cast and long abandoned. And we are but fish swimming through this obstacle course trying to navigate without being reeled into another behaviorist's boat. That is why we welcome back the great Gordon MagicMakinWhite for a routine checkup and recalibration on all things Alternative on what not only his 10th appearance on THC but also his birthday! You know Gordon as the headmaster of his own podcast and digital hogwarts at runesoup.com where he offers the best classes known to man on topics like ancestors in the dead, magical geography, The Saints, sigils, grimoires, out-of-body journeying and more! He's the author of Starships, The Chaos Protocols & Pieces Of Eight. He is also fresh off a Amazonian ayahuasca retreat I can't wait to hear about so let's do this damn thing

03:40 Blowing out the digital candles on the conspiratorial birthday cake, The Higher Side's head maester of the dark arts. The globe-trotting wizard and high pope of permaculture and parapolitics. The magical mascot of Tasmania coming in at the ripe old age of 27 Bend the knee and kiss the ring Gordon my man welcome back to the higher side Thank you so much well that was best birthday gift ever that is a yeah ten times lucky that's quite the intro. Kind of you to say I appreciate that you know i tried really hard with this one and david ykes and it was like he didn't even notice so i appreciate that but you know

04:19 Ever since we like, you know luck in the time and my oh I did mention it's my birthday. I wonder if he's gonna like put in an extra bit of effort You sure did that was awesome. And you got my you know, you're right as far as anyone knows Yes well after ten times It is getting harder to say things I haven't said before so I did recycle a bit like a good Californian but This is gonna be fun. You just took this big trip to the Amazon you've released a ton of new stuff since we last talked and We're going to talk about some issues in the conspiracy culture that seem a bit off to my simple stoner mind But let's start with something nice and safe and get into this Amazonian ayahuasca adventure I know people always say this sort of thing but I really was so close to going and then I pussed out and

05:06 But it is what it is. I watched your trip report that you put up for your premium members, which is a great slideshow of all things that matter. What's the food like? Where do I sleep and do I have to shit myself in front of my friends? It all made me feel much more comfortable and I really do want to make it next year! I know in a lot of ways this trip followed the typical ayahuasca retreat narrative, but because you have so much experience with spirit contact. I am curious how this was different or unique? Was it more potent perhaps? I'll tell you i had not done... You know, I've done a lot of entheogens over the 27 years I've been alive

05:49 I never done i was gonna add an analogs and i smoke a bunch of times. And the reason for that was I had kind of promised myself that I was going to do it quote unquote correctly, which was this with an ayahuasca or a shaman in the jungle. You know on country in the Moluccan, the proper way there was something about Ayahuasca in particular that for me felt she deserved that and so in that sense yes The encounter with as you say like I do have a reasonable amount of experience compared to the normal person and spirit contact. But this is that dialed up to 11. What I'm so interested in for most people about ayahuasca is not only is it effectively a miracle medicine,

06:34 But if you want that, what I call in Kairos Protocols becoming invincible experience. If you want to know viscerally and in an embodied sense that spirits in some way shape or form exist get yourself to a qualified and trained shaman and be in ceremony with Ayahuasca and you will come away knowing that. And that was kind of why one of the things it's just been a bucket list item and it showed up at the right time and for that reason it was to see that dialed up to 11 embodied spirit contact thing, and that it was. Yeah, man. It's definitely a bucket list item for me too or I always thought of it as one but then once you have the opportunity to actually do it starts to get very real and I started getting quite anxious and I was like ah! I'm not going to do it. I can't do it but... I told you I'd hold your hand the whole way. Like when I go back, I don't mean that I am expert but what I know is what I've been doing operationally now now in the actual although The Shaman, huh? You'll actually really like this Greg

07:38 There was something about me that meant that it would affect me much later than other people. So the people come up within the first half an hour, 45 minutes and one night it took me three hours of the total ceremonies are only like four to five hours depending on how high everyone gets. And so I would I took more ayahuasca actually consumed more of it than anyone else who was in ceremony with me. And so I was not only high late, I was really really high and it was really fun this is a kind Caucasian gold medal that the shaman actually said, Yeah, you might get high late and get really really high but you're good at it. You're good at ceremony. You don't fight it. You know, freak out or anything and that was just when you hear that? Yeah, that's a Caucasian gold medal so I don't mean that I'm an expert in that sense. I mean this is the absolute best way of going on that once-in-a-lifetime journey with people who are experienced at it and take it extremely seriously and

08:36 Yes, so we can hold your hand the whole way right i mean it can't get more comfortable. It's like if not now when so pretty much that was my thinking behind it That was my thinking behind why I chose now as well like we're both quite busy and i'm like well what am i not gonna? Be Well trial by fire. I guess yes, it's got to happen so oh This is a question I wanted to ask you about this thing. It's going to get really complicated already, but one of your best RuneSoup episodes this year for me was talking plant cognition and communication with Dr Monica Gagliano. Really great! And she would refer to a plant like mimosa as a collective spirit over the whole genius

09:20 Of course most ayahuasca reports refer to mother ayahuasca, the specific spirit. Even though ayahuasca is a combination of things but the point is that when we take some compounds and have a breakthrough experience for me it's just been a transportation to say the spirit world and then just a communication with whoever is there The whole machine helps thing you know But then some people when they take this specific compound are talking to a specific Spirit, and I guess i'm just trying to work out these tangled threads around plant spirits, entheogens the mechanisms that get you over there versus consistently dialing up a specific number. Any idea how to help me untangle this knot?

10:03 Sure. So yeah, frankly so as I said before i'd smoked DMT but I hadn't taken ayahuasca and so this is an oversimplification but it's a useful one if you want to just get there If you wanna get the machine elf realm smoke DMT most commonly and this where its mostly right but also not based on my experience for the last couple of weeks with other people who are on dieta with me Ayahuasca, as you say it's a combination of the carpe vine and the chacruna leaves right? So it's not the spirit of a plant. But if you consume it in ceremony with an Ayahuasca-er who has made it and sung the Icarus into it, called her into temple and ceremony. You get ayahuasca as spirit. In the first journey, it was very much in the spirit world. The second one, it was very much her being in ceremony providing the healing that as a cosmic medicine she does. For me that was the difference in those two explicitly. With mushrooms, it's a bit of both

11:02 you can interact with mushroom. I tend to do it in an invocation sense and then you're in mushroom space, and you kind of encounter things that are in there but also your memories. Ayahuasca was in a funny way close to that—you interacting with ayahuasca and where she would take you or what she would show you. With smoking DMT, it's much more like punching into that weird machinofilm. Now there were a couple people on dieta one girl in particular one woman I guess which is young who had an experience During one of the ones that the main theme was around healing, everyone who was there. And most people had kind of like ayahuasca was healing me in a sort of cosmic nurse hospital sense and she had it she said they were like giant bugs. She could see giant bugs in them or look at big ants mantids essentially

11:47 performing psychic surgery on people. We had the discussion the next day and I'm like, well yes it's almost like you tipped further into the ayahuasca realm because that has a motif matched to what people who smoke DMT... It's not exact although it also is like mantids are good enough description of the stuff you encounter when you're in smoking DMT machine elf space so you can tell that there's almost maybe a spectrum? I don't know but she was one of the only people who had experiences with motifs that were more commonly associated with, at least for me smoking DMT because I didn't get really any machine elves the entire two and a bit weeks we were in the jungle. I got traveling in spirit, I got ayahuasca, I got all that kind of stuff but not what I was kind of expecting was a bit more like having smoked DMT so that's what it is to me. I think if you approach ayahuasca in an almost analog

12:40 Dare I say correct? I'm not sure if i want to use that word exactly, but in an analog and traditional sense you will get ayahuasca as spirit. And if you do it in a...I'm gonna extract or synthesize dimethyltryptamine 4 and freebase it, you're going to get something more extreme and almost maybe we're not supposed to be there. But that's how I currently have it hanging in my head Yeah it is a weird thing to work out and just think about how these different compounds affect our interaction between the two worlds. It's quite trippy i mean, it's a huge difference in an infinite spirit world to be able to talk to one entity directly as opposed just wandering around and seeing who shows up like I've never been able to visualize or see any other things i've talked to its all just like

13:32 consciousness kind of. Well, that's not true you've seen it so for instance when you're interacting with the star out in the desert yeah you could see this stuff it just looked like a star and that's actually quite normal because it took me so long to come up I'd get bored The night in particular took three hours and like oh come on like I'm lying down and everyone's purging around me now let's say I'm getting up okay so I got up and I left them we located at the middle of the night in the jungle beautiful, clear skies. It's just perfect. We're by this river of stars and I noticed because it wasn't that I was completely sober it's just that I was mildly altered. It was kind of like being a bit stunned frankly but with the difference that I could sense the intelligence of every single different plant tree vine

14:22 Giant frogs like on the world back one night and so on and you kind of realize at that point. whether it was ayahuasca specifically or entheogens in general, if you took the dose correctly had a tremendous advantage to hunting groups because I was aware and in some form of communication with the more than human world around me in the jungle at the time. So and I think that's...I didn't get that, you don't really get that kind of stuff if you smoke DMT but I didn't get that to the same level of precision with any other entheogen. I get it a bit with mushrooms on the farm. But I got it like, I swear I speak jungle when I'm on ayahuasca in the jungle and that is sort of to your point that I didn't see them differently but i was just completely confident and aware of the individual intelligences of each thing that was there now when I ended up with the medicine you know did actually get me properly high and I went back into the moluca then I was encountering this sort of riverside camp that we were on as this

15:24 much more like classic paintings of ayahuasca journeys, all the sort of colors and what have you in that really perspective a sense then I encountered it but it was interesting at almost like at a lower dose. You could just be in the jungle at night and be amongst friends I guess is a weird way of saying it but that's what it felt like Well that's awesome because that really was going to be my next question, which is just a lot of starships is about restoring magical context to anthropology and just the human story and what their ceremonies in these entheogen-fueled spirit contact traditions are all about. And I was just curious if this being like a really embedded setting with one of the most intense entheogens affected

16:12 the starship's hypothesis at all, or how you looked at indigenous magic or these spirit contact traditions. It seemed like maybe it did a little bit? Yeah sure and weirdly it was your experience with the star that got me outside because I've interacted with stars without entheogens and with them from a magical perspective for years And it suddenly occurred to me, because honestly once I got to two and a half hours and I was only a little bit stoned. Everyone else is completely high. Well that's what happening tonight so might as well go out because i can walk. I might as well look at the sky and see what I can do interacting in magic ways and so on.

16:53 Yeah, I think we would have a very similar experience of being able to have some sort of telepathic communication with the night sky on these things because that certainly happened. And in that sense it was further validation but what I noticed the most was which hadn't done before or hadn't felt before I just kind of intellectually knew it. I felt the hunting advantage of being good as a shaman or ayahuasca wherever you are in the world where you have substances that can alter consciousness I felt the hunting advantage because the jungle was talking to me and I was talking to it. And everything fit, and you would be able to see better in the dark, and you kind of knew where animals were. That was really interesting that it was almost like

17:41 I had the impression of some of these plant spirits being allies, which is what typically in magic you call them right? Like plant allies and so on. But i had the impression that they're being allies in the same way dogs are allies or have historically been allies as allies in a hunting group. So that was that's in there, in the Starship thesis. But I hadn't personally experienced that before and that was kind of fascinating. Wow! Yeah, I love it man. I am excited and terrified for next year definitely. Oh we'll get a bit high and go hunting Oh yeah, because hunting is just something I do all the time. Yeah me too! Better doing high. But to switch gears a bit this is your 10th time here and it all started with a show that was largely about Gnosticism 101 and the idea that you being a fan of both magic and conspiracy felt like conspiracy researchers tend to make incorrect assumptions and claims about

18:36 the magic parts of their repertoire because they lack experience with it. Something that we're still talking about on the continued search for better models, but I thought it would be fun to circle back and close the loop here because I've had a lot of guests recently who think agnostic philosophy is what's driving The Elite and their agendas- the arrogant idea that we should transcend this prison planet and become our own gods that it's driving the technologies of the Silicon Valley technocracy, that its basically no different from Satanism. And you know we can zoom in on certain things in a minute but broadly speaking can you help us sort this out? Is Gnosticism a viewpoint thats helpful and empowering to the individual or is it a driving force behind the elite secret religion and a component to something they're hoping the masses will adopt as the one world state religion eventually

19:27 It's definitely not a driving force behind the elite religion, except in the sense that they maybe wouldn't use the word archons but they're aware of powerful non-human entities with which may be off planet or not that they can interact with. Here's the thing, particularly when you have people on the show who have a background in Orthodox Christianity—Eastern Orthodox in particular. Let me describe it to you in DC Universe terms. To Orthodox Christianity, Gnosticism is the joker. It is the original villain before witchcraft, before the invading Moors, before whoever. Orthodox Christianity emerged historically

20:08 as a reaction to the many Gnosticisms around it. So, it is the villain they are most afraid of and in fact the fixity which isn't necessarily a bad thing if you're a Christian and you're looking for an internally coherent philosophy or metaphysics that works Eastern Orthodoxy is the Christianity that is internally consistent. Catholicism isn't, because it sort of broke things for political reasons about 600 years after Christianity formed as a thing right? It's still most people are Catholic and then Protestant from Catholic but as a result when you get people who come from that kind of Christianity they're already predisposed to

20:52 Eastern Orthodoxy is built as essentially a refutation of a lot of stuff that you find in the multiple Gnosticism. So, that kind of explains a lot of the antipathy if you're referring to a couple of guests you've had in particular. As for whether it is the right way of describing the elite belief system I don't think it is. I actually think that's an inversion because and it's funny This guy I know we're going to talk about postmodernism later right it's sort of weird to me that It's a lack of understanding that makes people who are in conspiracy land suspicious of postmodernism and Gnosticism because at a really high level what they're both saying is that people in power will tell you a fake story to keep themselves in power. And that's essentially Gnosticism, essentially Gnosticism is powerful things are giving you a false vision of reality and if you don't work that out your fucked

21:49 And if you look at what postmodernism is, it's the same thing. It's that power produces our understanding of gender and money, and the things we can and can't do. Like at a macro level postmodernism is looking at how power changed the rules and definitions of reality across time but it's a flow model understanding of time that is as informed by that And so is Gnosticism really! That's kind of why they don't like it because it has this idea especially if you come from an Eastern Orthodox point-of-view what you're essentially saying is that sometime in the 300s a bunch of men got the description of the universe perfectly accurate and everyone else is wrong. And I'm not there, and i don't think actually if most of the listeners to the show are Christian or not

22:34 If you phrase it that way, I don't think they're there either. And it's just kind of funny like libertarianism which you know...I'm a fan but like I know you've got a lot of libertarian types who listen to the show. Libertarianism has a high-vent overlap with something like postmodernism if you actually understand what it is because it's like well no I reject the narratives and bars and restrictions that come from power they're crap It's always fascinated me, particularly in the last five or so years that we've come back around to wailing on these things. And it's not that there are things within postmodernism that disappointing or subject to critique because they certainly are but it's weird that it gave how to describe this? It gave modern discourse a whole bunch of tools to understand and critique power that we didn't have before and what else are we doing here but that

23:28 Well said, I mean we're in it now but the-I like that thing about people in power will tell you a false story to stay in power if that is how we sum up these two philosophies obviously. That's where I put my money but I guess I would ask how that works with postmodernism because I understand the idea that Empire separates people in the categories and then gets those categories to fight with each other but they didn't create the category is a men and women, add some of these kind of things that are at the forefront of a lot of post modern discussions how does this work on the postmodern side so.

24:09 In a way they did. So here's the thing, I wouldn't consider myself a postmodernist but I might consider myself a postcolonialist because what happened in the 80s as postmodernism sort of had its peak when Foucault and the likes were still alive you got some non-western academics going well hold up a minute it's all good to say that power be it a king or government or whatever effectively and in large measure determines reality like this is what we do and this is how we see the world But the postmodern angle is coming from a 20th century materialist Marxists.

24:45 assumption that invalidates a whole lot of non-Western ways of being in the world. And the good example would be India, coming out of a British imperial occupation and looking around at its options going okay well this is deeply a big part of particularly Hindu because obviously the country has millions of Sikhs and Muslims as well but from a Hindu perspective it seems like the post empire option is to be some sort of French style atheist post-Marxist. And that's a form of colonization, right? Because it's sort of this French idea that all your spiritualities and ways of being are little and relative and not actually true. So what I like about postcolonialism is that it has the same critique of power but it also does its best to not impose a different Western narrative on the world. That's my main critique with postmodernism—that

25:39 I've called it an ersatz animism because what you have is a flow model. You have this idea, and animism is a flow model—the postmodern one because it's French in post-war and thus deeply suspicious of transcendentalism or any kind of spiritualities because they just had the Nazi occupation and so on. So that the cosmic transcendental essentialist ideas was just anathema in Europe at the time. And you get it historically, you understand why that happens But what you have with Foucault and so on is this idea that history, and it's kind of informed by some important 19th century philosophers as well. The idea that the things that are true change and evolve and interact based on power. Power creates truth rather than restricts it. Now, the main critique people leveled was there are other things that create truth in the world other than power. And that's very true! That's a really valid critique

26:33 But you can't remove the idea, indeed that's literally what we're all doing here. We think of power as suppressive or oppressive. What Poucault's insight was is that it actually creates and if you look at...we're talking about sex and gender for instance well that comes down to definitions like biologically even those categories in different power regimes change. So, in non-Western ones you have more than one gender... In animus cultures you have more than two genders right? And whilst the body may move differently in power how gender is thought of and expressed is absolutely a function of power and you see for instance in the 17th and 18th centuries that

27:16 Men will make up and wigs and high-heeled shoes. And so in the Northwest, you have like the men with a peacocks in the dandies until this guy Beau Brummel who sort of ultra peacocked and kind of changed men's fashion forever. But that's an example of how elite expressions of power create gender identity because that's how they're doing it, it's not an oppressive one they're not restricting people to doing things they literally creating them And its almost like an inversion in how we think about it in conspiracy land but nevertheless a really useful way of looking at the relationship between power and truth The people you know in the kind of Peterson world are rejecting

27:55 postmodernism, are doing so for that same orthodox reason which is they have a collection of ideas that they think permanently describe reality and this stuff is coming to erase it all. But those collections of permanent ideas are embedded in a culture at the time and you can't say with any confidence that this one group of English-speaking people in the mid 20th century got reality correct and the rest of the billions of people who have lived or currently alive haven't? If you do it correctly, you have a bit of humility with what we can and can't understand or what we do and don't know. And that's where I think in conspiracy land people react to it because they're deeply emotionally attached to a whole bunch of premises that they have mistaken for eternal realities. Postmodernism gives you the option of putting that in flow and people tend not to like them

28:52 Fair, but to play devil's advocate and make the point that some of the more conservative or nationalistic researchers would make if you don't own and value preserve the culture or your heritage and its traditions like the nuclear family perhaps then that is when the empire can co-opt it and steer it wherever they want to send you down a dark path I mean, their perspective is we have to keep this preserved because this is going to be manipulated or they're gonna try to break this up. Is that in play a little bit? How do you answer that?

29:33 Sure, but like the things that people seem to protect as eternal categories are kind of recent. You use the nuclear family as an example That's sort of 15 years of post-war suburban America That's not how humans have lived It's kind of racist. Like, I don't know how humans have lived around the world least of all in the West we were multi-generational dwellings for millions of years well two million years like if you include caves or however long we've been humans right but right through the west you lived with your grandparents until they died because you have to take care of them. And the idea that one family can keep three households solvent is this kind of American idea that happened after the war when there was no other economic activity anywhere, and it's put us all in debt and basically broke the world in 2007. It's fucking dumb! So if they're talking about that as an eternal category? They're idiots

30:24 As for gender and sex, that also changes. And a bunch of it's shit like I mean you obviously know what side of those sort of discussions i'm on but again like with post-modernism that doesn't mean that everything that comes out of that world is good or not ripe for critique It's the opposite! It should be critiqued and examined. It shouldn't be dismissed or considered fucking evil because again post-modernism doesn't come to destroy It comes to put in flow it comes to actually say your understanding of history is limited if you are worried that this tiny little moment where what a surprise heterosexual white males in the capitalist environment. Are there any pecs you mistaken for western culture and that's

31:08 not good enough. And it isn't good enough, it's not that the white heterosexual males aren't valid categories and whatever but that's not good enough to say that the nuclear family and how we lived in the 1950s under segregation for instance when homosexuality is criminalized, not good enough. So the idea the presence of something like postmodernism is going to make things worse, is wrong. It will make it different and it might make it worse if we do it wrong but But its mere presence doesn't make things worse. It makes things uncomfortable for power, and I like that." As do i! And it is a tough place for me to be because I would say that I've always tried to be a Do No Harm conspiracy podcaster but even when you try the conspiracy world can still feel like

32:04 old straight white guys talking about how the elite are making everyone gay or trans or brown or multicultural which is sad because these are some of the people who have had it the hardest, who the empire has treated the worst and the conversation sometimes starts to sound like we're being wary of people that are different rather than being weary of the elite But I also don't want to be naively endorsing some sort of weird transhumanist agenda to end humanity. So, I'm conflicted." You know? Oh! I completely get that and what you said was really true and I resonate with it that a lot of the people who react to the impact of empire in their lives by being even semi-consciously racist or homophobic or whatever

32:50 That comes very often, as you point out from a place of damage. They're impacted by it as well and I completely agree and as a result what that does is change the tactics which we're just not good at the moment where yelling at each other all over the internet arguing and by the way as you've kind of observed yourself it's making things worse rather than better so from a purely tactical perspective maybe there's a different way doing this maybe there's a different way of sharing ideas because somewhere in the kind of yelly transphobic world, there are people who are doing in-depth research into say Ray Kurzweil and other psychopaths. It's just that they've conflated it in a way that I think requires more nuance which something like

33:32 a postmodern or flow understanding of, or contextualized understanding of power might offer them if they didn't immediately dismiss it. So it's really... It's a call for everyone to just be a bit nicer and more humble with the things you do and don't know maybe? I guess maybe that's what we do! Yes absolutely. I definitely try to just let people speak their mind on this show but it just so happens that Lot of them are speaking their mind in unison on this particular issue. So I'm glad we could talk about it a little bit and I wanted to ask you about the road that leads to the gender issue in conspiracy land, which is this idea of The unification of opposites and I want to ask you how big an aspect of occult philosophy This really is because a lot of researchers focus on it almost exclusively where they see the 9-11 ritual And they say look

34:25 They're collapsing the twin pillars of Jacob and Boaz, and reforming a single tower to represent their new world. And then they apply this logic to the elite are trying to use CERN to open up gateways to the spirit world and let their demon overlords through en masse, and collapse the two genders into one in the two worlds into one... ...and then God will have to reflood us out and start again! But what do you say about that? How big an aspect of the elites philosophy is that even in your opinion? of the elite philosophy, it's probably almost nothing. In terms of its origins within Western magic, 500 years but really only 150 to 180 which is to say alchemy as it left Egypt with the Arabs or the Moorish invasion of Spain was much more physical. It was a weird combination we don't really understand

35:15 It's difficult for us to get this, but it was almost literal and metaphoric. So it was physical and they would actually be attempting to make gold or attempting to transmute physical things. But they were doing that as a kind of metaphor for how life exists on Earth with God in heaven and whatever right? However once, largely thanks to alchemy, quote-unquote, the beginnings of modern science I guess happened a few centuries back. The beginning of chemistry and so on. Alchemy metaphorized itself let's say that and so alchemy became like a metaphor for the internal transformations that can happen and it is sort of clunky frankly

36:00 And then you hit the late 18th, early 19th century in the age of empires where you have like the kind of white European understanding of things like Tantra from the actual browner corners of the world that had a less ruinous attitude to sex. In particular, Southern Asia or South Asia And so that's where you get, and that's what Crowley and Eliphas Levy and all these people get it from. Especially Crowley right? They get it from the fact that these exotic colonized brown people that belonged to Britain in the 19th century were a fad! So it's not some kind of eternal belief system from an elite that goes back millennia. It is historically range-bound and I think it's a poor interpretation of something like 911

36:48 And that comes back to what we had in our first or second discussion, which is have better magic chops if you want to interpret elite ritual behavior from a magical perspective because sooner or later I'll come back on this show and list where your thesis is wrong specifically about magic. Now 9-11 is riddled with uses of magic, and so is the elite. Definitely not arguing that. I am however arguing this unification of opposites as a foundational idea of belief system at a super-elite level. I don't see it and it's not as old as people think.

37:26 Almost the exclusive narrative as to where we're going i mean you can talk about five g and within a few breaths people are getting to transgender is with this transhumance. I'm browning david i excited if you weeks ago here on prompted even our friend chris noles has been cataloging a surgeon mermaid symbolism as this very thing, Cool. So transhumanism is absolutely on the rise, but it's more than the unification of opposites so where people get that wrong as a ritual behavior is what I said before about postmodernism having an inheritance from the 19th century specifically from Hegel very much informed from the ideas of Hegel and the idea that

38:09 It's like 50% correct. That's the thing, it's just that he had this notion that societies evolve in a pendulum unification of opposites way so its wings super conservative and then swings back the other end crashes and becomes like a melded thing and then that swings and And so we have like essentially one mechanism of how society develops and there are cycles to society. So in that sense, it's kind of correct but that can be misinterpreted as a ritual unification of opposites because actually the Hegelian way of managing society did inform some of the Olinsky school people right? Saul Olinsky was not entirely...there were other things he was inspired by but

38:50 that Hegelian way of managing society was something that he would teach and thus as a result, taught to Hillary Clinton. So that is there the idea that you can kind of smash things together to create a new thing is there as a tactic not necessarily at a ritual level in a universal sense if I may like this is the bit they're there and if you smush them together, ironically enough if you make them all one, you miss the point. But transhumanism is more than—and I mean this as a negative, I'm not a fan—transhumanism is more than the unification of opposites. Transhumanism is the horizontalizing and extending in their heads, the extending of human capacities beyond the human because they see us as just meat and chemicals like everything else in the universe so it's kind of like no...it's not like a unification of opposites

39:41 it's a spreading outness of chemicals and molecules from in this meat sack to the rest of it. That's more what's going on, that is absolutely what's going on and that is the belief system. That's why you do have the rise of The Mermaid archetypally if not as deliberate—which I don't think it is as much as Christos does—I don't think it's a deliberate signal or indicator. It's emerging from the collective unconscious because we're at this stage And bear in mind that it's a dangerous archetype because it's a siren right like it, it leads ships onto rocks so it is still worthy of consideration as to why it is so prominent in culture because maybe its a warning.

40:20 But I think when we want to talk about transhumanism, which we should because it's important. If we bundle all these things together, if we bundle the impact of Hegel on the 20th century technocrats and if we bundle in those 19th century exoticism and imperialism of like secret society belief systems, which isn't in play as much as some kind of weird ancient alien thing is at a super elite level. If you smush them all together this is where I think we get a bit confused and react with confusion to the changes that are going on politically and parapolitically because we're expecting it to be some sort

41:01 smushed together man mermaid merman tower. And it's not that won't help and yeah, genderless hybrid humans Gordon that's what they're doing no that's true Yeah but I don't think the right way of thinking about that is unification of opposites The hybrid or cyborg is absolutely where they're going or intended to go like the good news for people who are a bit alarmed by this as well you should be is it won't work. It can't! Their foundational belief system is wrong, like you are more than molecules right? So if you actually listen to Ray Kurzweil and watch his TEDx talk, that means you are some sort of deranged upside down Christian apocalypticist this is mental so the good news isn't what work and the bad news is they don't know that and I'm still pretty keen in kind of organizing society in that direction

41:56 fair and I'm glad that we can have uncomfortable conversations because not everyone can. And this is where it gets into some landmine issues, and I'm just going to close my eyes and run! But I listened to this recent time you were on Skeptico and the conversation got into the Gloria Steinem and the feminism thing being a weaponized movement by the CIA—we've heard this before—and you had said they probably had an interest in feminism to see if it could be used for depopulation And I agree with you there. But do you think that something similar has occurred in the time since, with chemicals and hormones and the food-and water supply that feminized men? Or to go further this new trend to give puberty blocking chemicals to so called trans children it seems to have a similar shape to me in that goal of depopulation or regulating who's having kids and that kind of stuff what say you

42:53 I know it gets a lot of airtime, but simply put the number of kids who are receiving hormone treatment at the age of 10 is incandescently small. And as for the legality of it and so on like this is what I mean about obviously I'm pro-trans right that's fine that doesn't mean Because again, this kind of comes back to a postmodern thing. It doesn't mean that how we conceive of embodied gender right now in the middle of 2019 is correct and so we need to cool our jets on that and I just use the fact that other cultures around the world do have better and healthier understandings of how embodied gender works. So unless it's a testing program, I don't know if necessarily

43:47 providing hormone treatment to children as part of depopulation. But I'll tell you what is, it is the total cost of health care. It's a total cost of raising a child My background is demography, as you know. And if you look at birth rates in Italy in particular because when Italy joined the EU its currency like places like Greece strengthened and so things got a lot more expensive access to debt was easier but if you look at the birth rates in a very Catholic country it goes from five kids to 1.1 kids over that point in time So this is why conspiracy over even before our time, Greg because you know I'm 27 and they forget what you are. But if you look at it over a multi-decade phase it does appear in the 70s that

44:33 they really were looking for ways to manually depopulate the earth. And all of a sudden, and by that I mean in the mid-90s, that seems to become less of a priority. And I would argue that they did what I used to do as a job which is look at the demography of it and go okay well we've China's done the one child thing and they have a demographic time bomb coming up and we've made it extremely expensive to have children elsewhere and we put more women into workforce so So, conveniently because not all of them are possessed by demons. Conveniently they're looking at it and this is true by the way that we think the planet's population is growing. It's only grown to 2050 and then it isn't

45:12 they've kind of achieved it. The population's going down in terms if you're a technocrat, the second half of the 20th century will have as far as we can tell from just the inertia, a declining, a sort of flattening and then declining number of people so I think it's more like that absolutely. I honestly think that uh in a technocratic sense that's a tick, it's a mission accomplished they can unfurl the banner and as far as we can tell unless you know there's some sort of Delayed chemical or genetic or viral thing that's gonna happen between now and twenty fifteen you know let's not move it out i think its like that actually depopulation is currently happening. Yeah i mean i agree and i think those economic pressures are one of the keys also just, it's not necessarily a feminizing of men but just this idea that I mean look at if i think about what my grandfather was doing at thirty four

46:08 It's a lot how about different and more self reliant and determined than what i'm doing i mean he is i think a lot of people think of our grandparents generation as their building their own houses in then. Go on after work at have any kids and just raising them all and not that it was a paradise but you can clearly see that has changed n, I think it's the domestication, maybe rather than the hussification of the American male that we really are just not given the tools. And so we're all still millennials living in our parents' basement hanging out on social media and digital realities rather than facing the real world one. Yeah sure

46:51 The thing is, let's use this as an example. Your grandfather didn't have the choice to be a podcaster. Maybe he'd want to be so now you actually have both and he only had one. You have the choice I don't know, chop wood cap whatever like but you do. Yeah it's not out of necessity but it is still an option yeah and so when...I mean because we're both we're both millennials I don't live in my parents basement neither to you so but the people who do and let's be clear it's the population that has lived with their parents longest in the 20th century right 21st century who knows

47:30 That is an economic side effect as much as it is anything else. So, it's kind of like well yeah the housing has historically never been this expensive and we're in a situation where that's a challenging thing to solve And also I'm happy with multi-generational dwelling Like I think that's how we should be living But I get what you're saying Here's the thing that always fascinates me right? Like...I am completely fine with People like everyone just leave your best fucking life right so i don't care about people's gender identities or expressions of many. Jendis you can select on facebook because i don't use facebook what i've never had explained to me is how the existence of more things,

48:09 is supposed to somehow take away from the existence of the original. If you were on the Kinsey scale, right up there man's man chopping wood... Straight as an arrow. Yeah yeah yeah. Dressing like a 1970s lesbian spitting chewing tobacco whatever if you are ultra male What does the existence of people along a non-binary spectrum, how do they take some of your masculinity out and spread it across five people? And that's the bit where I'm like fine. Surely it is good news that humans can find and express the way they want to be that makes them happy. And I don't get why if you're like a completely Lucille Ball vacuuming in a taffeta ball gown housewife, or if you're yeah, a lumberjack good! You know? There'd be people in the middle...I guess..I dunno. I've never understood how the existence of one would negate the existence of another

49:07 Well said and i think that's a excellent point that's the kind of thing i wanted you to say in having this conversation is the kind of counterpoint. That i wanted to try to put out there for people and another thing about this post modernism thing is that, the conservatives argument is that all the system wants to strip the labels off everything and Create this big homogeneous mass and then they think it degrades something of theirs but I get this argument that Labels and categories on the material plane mean less if everything is ultimately consciousness And this material realm is just an illusion But the material realm is our context at this part of the cycle labels in category seem

49:54 Somewhat useful but i guess it's like what they say about martin luther king junior when he was fighting for black people rights you is allowed to do that twenty started uniting poor people, that they had to get rid of them yeah. Who people are gonna go to war yes look at the labels and two ones the label maker so that's the problem the people who say they're trying to remove labels and turn it into a mush, no motherfucker I'm trying to take the label maker out of your fucking hand. How about we share that around? Because the people who say that are like, No these ones are the men and these ones are the women and you will go and fight in my war in the Middle East and turn Arab children to paste. Like...no! It's not removal of labels, its well whose got the goddamn label maker And that would be funnily enough, that would be the post-modernist point. Touche

50:44 I guess any idea can be weaponized in fact most of them usually are at some point so i'm sure that's gonna be in the mix and it's not completely black and white but i definitely like that expression of it the label maker. Yeah hundred percent and we're seeing that in cultures around the edge or aspects of culture that are on the edge of increasing change. So as I said to Alex, you mentioned at the Skeptico interview that there is within particularly from an academic perspective, the trans friends they have aren't academics. They're just living their lives and to some extent

51:20 and I'm thinking one in particular, one of my Melbourne friends. When I bring them like what about this person and these stuff? And they'll say like this is trash, this person is crazy. Particularly in academia which has always happened well when I say always happened since the rise of elite universities in Britain and United States you will always have the weaponization of change opportunities at an academic level. And there is some crazy shit that is said about like trans lives and trans implications at an academic level, 100%. It's just a bit of a strawman argument though for people who are anti-trans to go and say well look at this person saying this. Yeah one dried up academic! Do you know any trans people who are just like

52:06 just doing their shit, right? And that's absolutely true. There is weaponization in all of this stuff just in the same way I practice magic and I know damn well and funnily enough I would argue that the slight majority of people who practice magic in the West are unaware of this at a super elite level Damn right they're practicing magic. It's different to mine, but they are and it's the same kind of like well that doesn't mean let's not dismiss magic Let's maybe not murder children in a super elite ritual at Dolphin Square or something Right? That seems like a reasonable separation And it's the same with any other stuff we're talking about and I kinda mentioned that with postmodernism Like it's not that these things are flawless or perfected We should all fall in line far from it. We should be in a situation to critique rather than reject

52:49 Cheers to that. And so the last thing I wanted to ask you, you know, I've definitely fallen behind on the courses and I sometimes feel like a poser when it comes to magic because I promote it a lot but I don't put conscious attention into it all that much but it's the same as good exercise or proper diet. I don't have to be perfect with these things to feel confident saying that they are things that can improve a person's life, but you know i've yet to take Ancestors in the Dead Magical Geography Saints or Journeying what might be aspects of some of these most recent courses that a THC audience might like most if you had to pull one or two things out?

53:34 That's real tough. Assuming that they like getting high as much as you do, and I mean that's a big assumption right? And the journey in course is very one it's a good stoner discussion because we talk about what our dreams and the imagination is different to the spirit world than as a result not so honestly maybe it's the journey in course again assuming they like to get high as much as you do. My favorite, and I think the members have kind of been the same with the last couple of them has been The Magical Geography Course. But that's like, as I said it's my wheelhouse permaculture animism so on it's how I live. It's probably the most personal but for THC members and like... To be clear

54:19 It's not a school like you don't have to start with the first one. You don't do this is life, do whatever you fucking want right? But you certainly don't have to do the first course of it second course then whatever it's you may know some of the stuff already maybe only interested in a little bit of it or none of it But how it works is the members each quarter will vote for the course we do the next quarter. So I don't even know what it is coming up for, or what are we going into Q3? Right? I don't know what it is yet so it's sort of casual like that and you definitely don't...it's not and this is such a serious reason as to why I think that 19th century shouldy

54:55 Freemasonic golden dawn model doesn't work or it would have worked. The idea that you can put together a magic course because you know everything there is to know about it and you've got to the top of it so in year one, you do this and then year two you do that. It's crap for school like that structure is artificial in any kind of attempt to share information or experience, putting it in some kind of lunatic hierarchy that was originally based on the church doesn't work. You've done a bunch of shows about schooling and so on. It's not how humans won. I'm still not sure how much they even know about magic and i've been doing it for 20 years right now more

55:33 but I can share the things that have worked for me and what I think's going on. And, and I share it horizontally and then people play with it and share back. An-and that seems to be what we've done." And you don't even like people join and don't do any of the courses because they're just interested in seeing, you know? What these guys are doing and what we're talking about and they find enrichment in it that way. And we also have some very serious and experienced magicians who were kind of like, you know touching up their tech, I guess. Yeah it really is kind of a special thing and its awesome to see cuz when we did our first interview up the ten none of that exists i don't think either of us had a premium section yet we were just doing podcasts. It's just awesome to see where it's gone i really love the first few courses so,

56:23 I get really excited when i see the new one come out magical geography and journey and even saints are really high on my list ancestors are all high on my list of things i want to do i just have this weird habit of collecting things that oh, i'm. When i wanna dig into x y or z this is how im gonna do it and then i collect those things and then i just don't get that far on the to-do list but thats totally always a case and that's sort of my life as well like you gather a whole bunch material for something Well, if this happens I'm going to need that. And not in a hoarding sense but like...I am quite happy with my library it grows each month but i have stuff that- I have you know hundreds of books I haven't even opened but I will when I'm doing that kind of work so it's just there like I mean I know you had from your first forays into ancestral altar stuff

57:14 you got some of those surprising effects of knowledge and perspective in your life. So I know that at some stage when you're back in that mood, you're like, ''I have that whole fucking course I can go through'' and then you'll do it Mm-hmm. Yes, I learned quite a bit about the pre Greg family and the whole family tree And how it's been way more affected by the actions of Empire than I ever realized and it seems I had a classic archetypal big gay uncle who I will never meet because of The Big Machine and how it treats people who are different which folds right into the overall themes of the day It seems

57:54 Yeah, I actually think I mentioned you from memory. As an example of the kind of weird stuff that happens when people... Every other culture in the world will tell you to get right with your ancestors and a lot of the problems in your life friction problems that come from that sort of dysfunction. They're either hungry or sick and you have the responsibility to be of assistance for them, but also who else in the cosmos is going to have your back than your own family by and large? And even if your family is trashed for multiple generations, the fact that you are alive means that you have ancestors who go back to the first human. I can promise you—and I'm sorry this is the case obviously—you can be from the worst most violent terrible family

58:38 as far back as you can see, let me tell you that you can't see that far. And there are people way up in the lineage who have your back and it's just really interesting to get back into...it's the same with magical geography-to realizing that your feet touch an earth that is alive is the same thing as realizing that you are the scion or fountainhead of a vast army of the dead who want you to succeed because they made you, right? And even just the perspective shift is enough to materially improve your life. And then when you approach that with humility it does even more Yeah, yeah it's a great way to look at things and hey I like to hear about me so maybe Ancestors will be my next one. But right on man this has been a lot of fun let's do the promotion thing we do and say that you have some upcoming events i'll see you in Austin at the Portland one this summer for sure but let people know about the things they should know about Yes absolutely

59:38 I have a three-day workshop in New York on, I think it's the 5th and 7th of or 6th, 7th 8th of December. September rather. The Metaphysics Of Desire that's with a good friend of mine Langston Kahn who is a Brooklyn based shaman and that's going to be unpacking desire and kind of how we get that wrong from a cultural and almost economic perspective and exploring the difference between want and need and what happens to your life when you have a more embodied and healthy approach to design. That's going to be lots of ritual and journeying, I'm super excited! He and iIve been working on that since the beginning of the year so that's like probably about half sold out because we mentioned it a couple days ago but obviously very limited We're in this large and fancy private residence in Upper Manhattan So its gonna be great That one im looking forward too As I mentioned in the last show that I will... And the tickets aren't available yet

1:00:35 just keep an eye on the website or the Facebook page for it. But I will be speaking with Diana Walsh-Persilka about UFOs and, I think the event's called Technology is Habitat so it's about UFOs and technology in their influence in the media at The Guggenheim again in New York and that'll be in the evening of Tuesday September 10th The tickets will be available from the Guggenheim website and that's why I have no control over when they're available. But those are my two events that aren't yet sold out, that are coming out and otherwise of course runesoup.com is where everything is. Wow, making moves doing things. It's always fun to hear what you got going on man you're definitely leaning into life and I appreciate you spending some of your birthday with us today and really just for being along on what has been a pretty long ride at this point again when we did that first interview many moons ago we both had jobs

1:01:30 And now you're cultivating the Tasmanian permaculture paradise and taking wizarding adventures around the globe. And I'm getting in my five hours of stone gazing again, I think it's going well for us so keep doing the great things you're doing man take care! You too Oh, oh it's magic you know guys 10 shows a bit of a milestone for one of our guests leaving Nick Redfern in the dust Because you can't have two dates to the ball but a big happy birthday To mr. White obviously you're hearing this after-the-fact But who doesn't like some well wishes?

1:02:10 And the topics of this show really felt like I was running on two different cycles of time because on a short cycle, yeah we just had a couple of shows talking about transhumanism and gender. We also had a few recent guests with negative outlooks on Gnosticism so it was pretty timely as a counterpoint to some very recent episodes but me and Gordon talked about doing this kind of show Over a year ago. I specifically said to him that we should try to get into post-modernism next time, but i'm not sure if it's really the best use of our time because we can talk about so many epic and interesting things do we want to bore people with the deep nuances of various philosophies?

1:02:57 But I did get a lot of negative feedback over guests' suggestion that there's a transhumanist agenda behind autism and transgenderism. This isn't the first time it's come up, and when i say A LOT of negative feedback you gotta put in context if most people will say nothing and just listen then go about their day But it's like the old thing with the TV networks. You got a million people watching the show, something controversial is said and then you get 500 letters about it Well people don't tend to write letters about not being offended so angry smaller groups of people who get loud can keep a show from getting controversial at all even though five hundred letters should be no big deal if you have a million people watching

1:03:47 I'm scaling up to use simple math for an example, but you understand what i mean. But that said, I gotta walk a narrow line of being almost exclusively about controversial material and also remain a place where people on the margins of society feel as if they're included and we're on the same team There's really no guide for this! I'm just doing it as I do it We are often going to look at every little microcosm and trend and say, well is there an agenda here? And sometimes that spotlight is going to shine on something uncomfortable or on a category in which we personally belong. But I hope you can grant me a little grace and tune in again next week same bat time same bat channel

1:04:35 And I engaged with way more of these angry comments than is typical for me, and i think that's because I had some mixed feelings. Some would say well why don't you get a transgender person on to defend themselves? And I thought well number one this show's motto is not fair and balanced it's are we being fucked when it comes to x y or z so it's not exactly the right approach And number two, I don't think that being transgendered necessarily makes you any better equipped at speaking about the possibility of a conspiracy behind it.

1:05:13 Obviously a transgender person can talk about what it's like to have those thoughts and feelings from a position of experience, but it doesn't mean you know why you are that way. None of us do! None of us know why we are the way we are and examining the roadmap to that is interesting Is it nature? Is it nurture? Is it a dark archonic Luciferian agenda I do think gordon for having this thorny conversation when he really didn't have to as he said he's not even really a post modernist is not really his hill today on we can still. Talk about its merits and those conspiratorial opinions about it cuz he knows those as well,

1:06:02 Even way back when we talked about Charles Fort Gordon made a comment about how charles used to change the labels on. Peach cans and various canned goods and that sort of category play is post modernism, i thought about it then but then I just waited until all this time later to really get in and try to unpack a lot of that And decolonizing is a great term change too. It's absolutely hard to get outside of the Western mindset when it's all you know, but a lack of culture and identity because you've been trampled by the empire is no small thing. Imagine generations later throwing off that yoke as a people

1:06:55 and trying to piece back what you want to believe, and properly Ctrl-Alt deleting anything that was imprinted by the tyrants that took you over. Surprise! Probably Christians more or less... It's very hard We're sort of like sponges sometimes in that regard And I don't think it's easy To go back and detangle your old ways sometimes Native Americans? Black people in America?! The India example that Gordon gave, I mean think about that stuff a little bit. So it is good to see people pushing back against the system that's defining them for them. I've wrestled with it. I knew it would be a problematic definition to say this was a conspiracy show. I knew it would be taken less seriously if I embraced the stoner element

1:07:50 But we can overcome those judgments for people who stick around to not judge the book by its cover. I don't even know if that analogy makes sense, but when it comes to how we should live what's right and proper To frame it as So you're saying a bunch of rich white men around the year 300 got it exactly right And we should conform to their structure forever is really great and I hope people sit with that for awhile I like that taking back the label maker phrase also. As i said, people should define themselves Yes of course some people take that too far but find me a topic area where we won't find some examples of people going off the handle with something and if we're all just lost souls swimming in the fish bowl then arguing with each other over how we should live to the benefit of the real oppressors That's not good

1:08:47 I also don't want to see the behaviorists and social engineers take advantage of a growing sentiment, and steer it in a way that suits what they want to see rather than people truly finding themselves. That's in the mix too! Clearly that can be hijacked, and that's up to each person to guard against and just go live their best life Is your best life criticizing transgenders on the internet? I'm not sure that is If we're getting into it, I really don't like that idea of giving children chemicals to block or alter their puberty process. That feels like child abuse in my eyes but that has more to do with Big Pharma and the toxic system-fucking chemical cocktails that they come up with everything has side effects and just waiting until someone is through that childhood process and becomes an adult might be best

1:09:45 We have rules for smoking cigarettes, getting tattoos and drinking alcohol. Maybe that same rule should apply to altering your testosterone and estrogen levels artificially? But even with that said as Gordon mentioned this transgender op issue gets way more airtime on these sorts of shows than it probably should The numbers who would be affected here are quite small compared to something like GMOs, 5G or vaccines. Again powerful people will tell you a false story about reality to keep themselves in power and that applies to all three of those areas And it's sort of a catch-22 to say damn the elite I want to overcome this oppressive structure they've built for me This rat race to nowhere

1:10:36 But on the other hand, we have to preserve our traditions or we'll all descend into chaos. It's interesting to see some people compartmentalize certain aspects of Western life when it has been shoved down our throats as THE only way to be! You want two wives and they wanna share a husband? For whatever reason? Nope! Not allowed you will go to jail. You wanna drop out of college well good luck being fucked You think you're gay? Oh, well that's impossible. We'll electroshock that right out of ya! Don't worry." How do you decouple the Empire from these traditional values? I'm not saying i have a solution these are just things I'm thinking about and I knew there was going to be some risk here but I'm hoping that people who feel disenfranchised by a few episodes at THC are now franchised again

1:11:30 Some commenters even said, well I guess if your show is a place that makes straight white men happy you don't have to worry about the smaller demographics. And that is a true statement! I probably don't have to worry about it but I still do sometimes anyway because I love all the outsiders and maybe there is more than one way to look at some of this stuff People send me emails where they list examples of gay characters on TV and say, here's another example of them pushing the gay agenda. And I just think well hold on! Gay people have been around forever so this isn't a new thing and So we have two choices We can leave them out of all media and it's just a straight white paradise or

1:12:23 Or we can give marginalized people some characters that they can relate to. And when you do that, conservatives will say it's an injection and an operation... ...and I think sometimes it's not really that big of a deal! Do you know anyone who has suddenly become gay because they resonated with a certain television character? I think that is a little silly but Regardless where you lie, don't crucify me please for trying to find some middle ground here. Alright? And now that we've talked that to death I really hope you heard the full two-hour show because we completely changed course from the heavy Gnostic transhumanistic postmodern conversation and went hard into the weaponized disclosure we're seeing now

1:13:15 And I think Gordon is very clear-headed when picking apart what we're seeing. And, I really love that part of the show and things like recasting the role of real life Tony Stark The Dreadnought model...the case that Tom DeLonge is a mind control victim. You know, I asked that question well now that UFO's are being disclosed when will we get the flying saucers? And the more I think about it There is no guarantee that we ever will. We never got a non-military application for the stealth bomber, or really submarines outside of a few tourist trap places So just because they might say these nuts and bolts electrogravitic crafts exist They might keep them in the military only market well beyond The point in which they disclose they exist Just A Thought

1:14:11 But we also talked about a deeper level of the panspermia perspective and it being a constant process rather than a singular event as I think a lot of people tend to think of it. And, we also talked about Gordon's magic classes a lot which are also fascinating topics for discussion so do the damn thing and sign up for THC Plus already especially if you thought this was an important checking of some persistent narratives in conspiracy world right now And if you have your mind made up and don't like having your view challenged, listen again more closely because nobody dismissed the idea of manipulation completely. Just that maybe there's a way to have a conversation that doesn't feel quite so discriminatory

1:15:01 But in THC news, it seems like the website is done and ready to be implemented. But upon further reflection we're in the middle of a goddamn Mercury retrograde! A lunar eclipse is coming on the 15th? And I just wanted to see what Austin Koppik was saying about the next couple of weeks and his analysis for the 15th in general which was going to be... ...the suggested launch day. And he says The Moon spends Monday en route to a series of difficult late-night aspects. This is, needless to say, not an auspicious time to schedule important projects!

1:15:41 So I don't think there's any harm in waiting until the space weather smooths out and Mercury is back to normal, which conveniently happens in August. And August just happens to be the anniversary of the Plus system as a whole, the anniversary of price change... anything we've really done has been in August! It seems to be the time that we do things around here. And so August 8th, specifically when Austin said would really dial in the best window is when we're going to launch the new THC and will all live happily ever after in perfect harmony now that Epstein's been formally charged with child trafficking right?

1:16:20 But hey, that's another topic for another day. I'm getting out of here! Your move culture dividers, empire riders and label maker masters... You're fucking dead. Carwood, it's your show now So what's it gonna be? Cause people will tune in to Hear another new conspiracy Almost too much of We thought this was low It's bad getting worse so Where'd all the good people go They're on the higher side chats cause its everybody's favorite show

1:17:03 Where'd all the good people go? He got your Mars gold and white, and then this crow They talk this and that on the highest side Chat testing one, two Now what you gonna do? Bad news misused Got too much to lose Give me some truth now Who's side we on Whatever you say Turn on the boob tube I'm in a mood to obey So lead me astray By the way now Where'd all the good people go? They locked them up it seems For protesting Monsanto

1:17:47 Where'd all the good people go? They're on the THC, my favorite show Sitting down New episode to hear Wanna light a bowl But I fear the police Can you hear me? Can't interrupt me from this friendly conversation Been waiting all week for THC With the car wood, there's no hesitation Exposing the truth getting to the elite Scams schemes conspiracies and treason It's an excellent show what I need to know Where'd all the good people go? Been only getting hate and fear from all the other hoes Where'd all the good people go

1:18:56 Guess that makes THC my favorite show They talk this and that on the highest side, chat testing one two now what you gonna do? Bad news misused, give me some truth You got too much to lose, who's side are we on today anyway Okay whatever you say wrong and resolute but in the mood to obey Station to station desensitizing the nation going gone