Free Plus Show: Peter Mark Adams | Game of Saturn: The Sola-Busca Tarot, Bloodlines, & The Demiurge Deal

00:01 Hello free first hour subscribers. Greg Carlwood here and over the years some of the main things I've heard about the full two-hour plus show and the membership are things like, oh i've been meaning to sign up for a long time but have just been lazy or that the first hour sounds so good and complete that it's hard to feel like you're missing that much or assess the value of a second hour Basically, the old adage you don't know what you're missing. And I understand that point. I don't really like to tease things in that sort of way feels too sleazy salesman-y So I thought about how I could address that what I might be able to do to convince more free listeners that it's worth converting over for and there really is no better way to do that than showing free listeners What a plus show is like or how much more second hour might contain

00:51 And that is my plan here, at least for a while. And we'll see how it works out for me one older plus show in the free show feed every month at the end of the month as a sort of peek behind the plus curtain because people who are members hear full two hour interviews in a single file. It's a little different from the way other people in this space do it where they split the hours into two separate files To me, as a listener that's annoying. It's like flipping tape from side A to side B I don't really want to deal with that when i'm in the middle of something else just keep it going! Also a waste of the listeners time to hear two wrap ups and two introductions trying to get back into the vibe so thats why I do it like I do it does confuse people sometimes

01:39 Which means that for these free feed sample episodes, if you feel like what you're hearing is too fresh in your memory skip ahead about 50 minutes and just pick up from there. And you can be pretty sure that you're hearing all the Plus Show content My process has always been find a natural sounding cut point about halfway in Make a chop and then tack on the whole tell us where we can get more links, etc. Section that is always at the end of a full interview So if you're trying to work it out in your head That's how I do it

02:15 But that said, I'm trying to choose episodes that I have fond memories of even if the material isn't 100% fresh in my mind and ones that are also on some of the more timeless subjects. No point rehashing some old political thing or a previous year's astrology and just going by that gives me tons of great shows to choose from I hope you enjoy this new process, and it gives new life to older episodes. And re-highlights some of the amazing guests i've been lucky enough to have. Of course if you end up thinking damn that was good! That was more satisfying than just a normal free show maybe it is worth $8 a month well then i would hope that you do pull the trigger...I mean why try to make it something else? That IS THE GOAL HERE

03:03 So I think everyone wins with this free Plus show a month plan. If you want to know why I picked this episode and the date it originally aired, I'll add that to the show notes right along with the easy plus sign up links if you want to start that seven day free trial if you want plus through Spotify use the Patreon link otherwise use the main one thanks and enjoy. It's probably masters almost surely have of this clearly maybe something there they

03:40 And until you've thoroughly tested every last course, just did you know the less you really do? That's true Dr. Seuss! Without THC, cause we're relying too much just on without THC The higher side chat show of one company Alright, Hireside Chatters. It's no secret that the conspiratorial crowd has made many claims about the Capstone Cabal and the ruling elite class of past and present. Claims that range from a fascination with occult arts securing power through magic and making dark packs with demonic multi-dimensional entities to selective breeding carefully preserving bloodlines and even that these psychopathic power players have some type of reptilian origin that might make them only half human

04:35 And as we know, it's very hard to find the smoking gun for these sorts of claims and we're left with the analysis of small breadcrumbs strange symbolism and the occasional promotion of ideas and motifs that seem completely foreign to anything we would recognize in the mainstream. Well folks, it seems like a 15th century relic known as the Sola Busca Taracci has broken free of its carefully maintained chain of custody behind the curtain as an aristocrat class magical heirloom to find itself on display in a Milan museum in modern times. And wouldn't you know? It contains aspects of nearly all those oh-so strange conspiratorial claims! Lucky for us though that royal worldview is carefully kept close at the chest and putting such a relic in its proper context seems like a monumental task

05:17 Today's guest Peter Mark Adams is a brilliant esoteric scholar, tarot expert, professional energy worker and occult symbol decoder that seriously dedicated himself to unpacking this deeply esoteric artifact fully drenched in the demiurge and has released his analysis and conclusions in an epic and beautiful book titled The Game of Saturn. It's one of the most impressive pieces of work that I've seen in some time. The implications are damn near unbelievable, and I can't wait to get down to it! A serious honor and a pleasure, a master of his craft, Peter Mark Adams welcome to the higher side Hi there, Greg. Lovely to talk to you. Yeah man I'm so happy to have here Scarlet Imprint always seems to work with amazing authors and i'm really impressed with this book something that yeah it is something that I don't think I could put together if my life depended on it you know so really kudos to you

06:05 Thank you so much. And, you know to kick this off we really have to break this down for people but we're talking about an elaborately illustrated and decorated deck of cards that matches the structure of a classic tarot deck dating back to the Italian Renaissance I guess it's the oldest known deck if its type in existence but you call it a Tarocci because outside of that same basic structure doesn't really have much else in common with traditional taro is that right? That's right there is about three cards in the deck that have a kind of passing similarity to. The card you'd expect amongst the trumps in the modern but apart from that everything else is utterly unique and it was that fact actually which really got me turned on to be task of trying to figure out why they gone to such extraordinary cost investment of time,

06:59 You survey renaissance master and graver. I get the thing didn't make any sense so this is something going on here which i couldn't figure out. And that really let me down the rabbit hole to be honest i started to disappear from day-to-day living as i got in grossed in this thing you know yeah and eventually i was working like sixteen hours a day seven days a week it took me about three years too break into the decks heavily coded multi-layered symbolism. That's so provocative and the artwork on the cards they depict everything from fairly innocent looking figures to decapitation and holding babies over fire pits yeah but I guess what about the artwork is so special not only from a content perspective but a historical one as well? Yeah, this is the first it's the earliest complete tarot deck that exists that's one thing

08:00 Secondly it's been done by this renaissance master engraver so the quality is absolutely superb. I know stu factors alone set the deck apart from pretty well everything else the third factor though, It has no Christian imagery or symbolism in it whatsoever. And that is really exceptional, I mean, I can't think of another tarot deck in existence that doesn't include certain aspects of the Christian theology. Right! I found that strange as well because I'm a little bit familiar with the Tarot and there's always that final judgment card at least which is a very Christian thing.

08:43 That's it and there is nothing like that in this deck again that was another of the factors that drove me to try and figure out what the heck is going on with this thing. There's a nother factor as well greg which is really strange this deck despite being a masterpiece of renaissance art has no provenance whatsoever I'm like provenance is everything in the arcade where did it come from. Where did it originate who was whose hands has been there because this is a deck of cards that survived intact for five hundred years and nobody knows where its being at least three hundred of those she said

09:28 So there's a lot of mysteries, there is a lot of locked boxes and it's like wet dream for the esoteric researcher you know. I can't claim to have cracked the whole thing i think i got most of the trump and court cards decoded but there's a substantial number of suit cards that still require work There's more to come. Always, and so you know the main purpose of a typical tarot is divination but is there an indication that that is not the same purpose here or is this just a different form of divination? I think people have always used different

10:12 things around them for divinatory purposes, you know whether it's coffee grounds or what. The original decks were created for gaming that's where the tarot came from but of course because of the imagery because of its symbolic nature it lends itself to other uses specifically to divination I think that if I'm going to jump to the core of the thing, what we're faced with here is something like an elite grimoire of surgical draconian magic. If I just sum up the end point of my research and the question therefore is where did it come from? How was it used

10:59 And what was the intent of the designer in putting this thing together? Because it illuminates an aspect of the modern conspiracy world, this notion of a cult of Saturn. It illuminates the origins of this thing which before now has been very nebulous Right, and it is such an amazing piece of history. An amazing artifact for that reason! And I guess I would also ask you because you're not the first person to look at this deck What can you tell us about some of the theories about the deck? Why it was created before you came along? The things that you dismiss Well, the obvious thing is that nine of the trump cards depict figures connected with Roman Republican History

11:48 So it's easy to dismiss the whole deck as an educational day but that's an explanation just doesn't stand up. How about the other you know trump cards how about all the court cards and the you know, so card so you know the obvious explanation is too fast style to Suggest that it's an educational deck also doesn't take account of the homoerotic elements in its imagery you know, it's a Christian stance and the fact that the Trump cards that appear to name Roman figures have been spelled in such a way as

12:31 that you cannot immediately identify any particular person. The Romans had a thing called the gens, it was like a family name and because the Roman elite was governed by very small number of families for a period of 500 years, the gens doesn't give you any indication which member of the family within that 500 years, you know who it could be. So again it doesn't actually fulfill an educational purpose on that score either the other explanation is that its another wedding present a kind of sumptuous wedding present like the Visconti sports deck but again the homoerotic imagery the baby getting cooked over the fire scenes of immolation and decapitation

13:24 That'd be some wedding present, right? That's good. Instead you wouldn't be invited back. So they're the main lines that have been attempted to explain the imagery in this deck and they don't really work. So there has to be a deeper game going on. And another foundational thing that we should probably discuss with people or discuss for people is that, there's also something that should be said about the historical context like not only the politics of the time but the attitudes about magical ritual and practice this kind of speaks to those homoerotic elements you mentioned but what do you think is important for people to know in that regard

14:06 to place this back in its proper context of when it was actually made. Okay, I mean if we're going to turn the clock back to 15th century Renaissance Europe and specifically to Italy magic in one form or other was pervasive at every level of society from the kind of folk healing, folk witchcraft. And Carlo Ginsberg has done excellent work in documenting some of the long-lived pagan witchcraft movements in Italy, the Bernadetti in the north of Italy. We have the possession cult of Tarantissimo in the south of Italy and on top of this you have a layer of what I would call grimoire magic

14:53 so that you find clerical scholars, students monks priests specializing in ritual magic for hire. Okay? So if you have any problems you go to them and they... You know that you need a demon exercising or you want to summon the demon and send it against someone the use of attack sorcery These would be the go-to people for that. And we have excellent testimony from the inquisitorial records for Modena and Bologna, which demonstrate that these priests—the ones who were recognized as wielding a lot of power in terms of demonic magic—were very carefully protected by the elite

15:38 Their major sponsors were the elite families, in fact. And whenever an inquisitor attempted to take one to court have them defrocked or whatever they could do against them the elite families always stepped in and put the case aside so that they were well protected at the highest levels of the Renaissance society. So that's pretty well the pyramid as it were, the background into which this death, which actually illustrates another strand and stream of magic. coming from the East, entered into and merged with. Yes that background makes it all the more provocative and when it comes to the Dex influences and the worldview and ideas that it seems to contain you kind of break it down into three parts because it can get pretty complex but you talk about the Dex cosmology its metaphysics and its ritual use I think that's a pretty clear way to talk about such a dense item what would you say about its cosmology for example?

16:42 It's holy malefic and it identifies a series of planets fixed stars and constellations that are the most malefic in terms of astral magic. And it was this fact that gave me the first indication that what I was dealing with Was a grimoire of elite sorcery of the darkest kind, right? Okay. So that's the cosmology that we have here Mm-hmm The items you know You would find them in Picatrix or any of those classic texts of astral magic but the ones particularly picked out and illustrated within the deck are wholly malefic I

17:27 So I can't conceive of another use of those energies other than what they call maleficium, attack sorcery. It's pretty cut and dry when it comes to the things they were trying to invoke. It's just negativity across the board it seems. I think when we look at these elite families, you know we need to realize that they were not like a modern state. They didn't function in that way. They were far closer to the godfather, you know the film The Mafia. They had their beneficial side but they were capable of any kind of cruelty

18:11 Or evil these were the families from which mackie of a lea drew the principles of governing. Just buy observing them so on the one side they would have dynastic marriages they would have no agreements treaties and so on but i'm not decide to flip side of the coin is there employment of poisonous you know sorceress assassin's spies There's like two sides to the coin and this deck illustrates, and this is why it's such a rare artifact. A very dark side of the coin but I want to qualify that and it's something probably we'll unpack as we go along Gregg is to say that what this deck is exemplifying is not the traditional grimoire sorcery okay?

19:06 Like the sorceress these guys this elite employed had copies of like the key of solomon and almadele and those kind of text classic. What is your name this stuff is over an order above that, in terms of its educational background is tradition and it's almost never been talked about in the context of the western history before because it comes straight from the byzantine elite wow. Okay another thread it's not being taught about as far as i can see has not been identified as a major player amongst the elites of europe for

19:48 This deck is depicting a tradition which goes from Orphism through the Neoplatonists into the Byzantine imperial elite and from them to Italy. It is no small thing! Yeah, dealing with an order of learned sorcery far above the popular grimoires And so to talk a little bit about kind of how they view reality's structure, you talk about how their view the view that's expressed in this deck is that souls are reincarnated and kind of the symbol of the X is where they see the Milky Way crossing with the path of the Zodiac. And that's the portal between the worlds. This is a type of worldview or cosmology that definitely wasn't taught to the masses it seems

20:39 Yeah, this emerges directly from Orphism. So we're back in the 8th century BC at least and it's been picked up through figures like Ferocides Pythagoras' teacher Plato of course and the Neoplatonic philosophers after so there is a continuous tradition there until I'd like the 6th century CE So it's like 1200 years old tradition at this point. And then there is an attempt by the Christian emperor, Justinian to stamp this out not very successful because the Byzantine elite and especially its civil service were thoroughly imbued with the values of Hellenism To enter the civil service you had to have a relevant number of year study of Hellenistic classical literature and philosophy

21:33 And with that, it's kind of in the kernel of it is paganism. You can't extract it out of it if you're studying Plato, you have paganism built-in so to speak So it perpetuated itself well into the 15th century and you have major figures in the Byzantine court at this time The imperial elite who are self declared pagans You know, and again this doesn't quite fit in with our church written history of the times but nevertheless that's how things fell out.

22:12 Right. And you talk about a Mithraic cult, which is something that I've had researchers dig up before and some suggest it's a thread that still continues in the background today but to have these nods to a Mithraic cult at this time depth it is strange! Just what you're saying... This cult and these ideas should have been long gone by the 15th century Yeah well i am they had a huge revival in the tenth and eleventh century with people like michael psalms, who recovered much of the literature but again our history lets us down because you know we see people figures like michael to sell this to recover the cal day and oracles. I stand alone we don't see them in context

23:00 Michael cell is had teachers who in all graded his interest in these ancient texts and ideas and they have teachers on the golden thread runs back and forth back into the past and forward, into contemporary history it's never broken and i think this one good reason why that's the case. The world view that exists at the core of this system makes sense in a way in which doctrinaire theology does not make sense. It is an esoteric experiential approach to reality so that for those of us who, for instance work with energy you do regression work constellation work whatever the notion of reincarnation is very real one

23:52 You experience people who recover past life information so. No you don't need a theological judgment about it becomes part of your experience and the belief system coming out of office is rooted in real experience in this way its liberating because it has this many lives aspect to it, And it places the onus on your own moral development rather than obeying somebody's rules. Okay, so there is a dynamic element at the core of the belief system that perpetuates itself from year to year from century to century and even if it was lost it would be recovered or recoverable because that's the way things are you know?

24:41 Okay. Yes, and you know these ideas you're talking about now very Gnostic and in regards to the deck as a Gnostic piece You say in categorizing the decks cosmology as Gnostic We need to take care not to confuse this fact with historically documented Gnostic preoccupation with spiritual liberation Nothing could be further from the worldview of the nobles who designed this deck Yeah And obviously that's an important separation I guess, what other aspects of Gnosticism do actually make it into the deck? Everything is there except this view that you should somehow clamber out of the cycle of metapsychosis and ascend to a higher plane. That is totally absent. This deck takes Gnosticism and converts it into a mechanism or let's put it this way

25:36 This deck as a Gnostic artifact embodies the idea that if the machinery of the universe runs in such a way, that subsequent lives arise out of the way you worship, where you treat deities in this life. Then you can start affecting the trajectory of your subsequent reincarnation okay? So this idea is taken directly out of Plato's Phaedrus. Where in the deities you worship in this life, you enter their train and you enter their entourage upon death and you travel with them and then you kind of re-enter okay? Now the key here is to re-enter into a social circle that is suitable for your objectives. And for these elite families, the objective is to re-enter

26:31 An elite family okay so in this way the ritual suggested within the deck is a way of controlling the trajectory of one's own meta psychosis. And this is where the notion of bloodlines takes on and you and deeper meaning, Absolutely. That's so interesting because it's like we always see the elite as into playing the long game and these multi-generational mindsets, and mainstream culture looks at that and says well that makes no sense you know people only live to be 78 years old they're not worried about what's going on for a 200 year game plan but this context makes that seem plausible it justifies why that worldview would exist among the elite

27:15 Yeah, and if you look at the ethnographic record around the world you find plenty of places where this is the way things are managed. They take a lot of care with death ritual to try and ensure subsequent rebirth of that soul back into their family group or into the community or whatever. And it kind of reaches a high point with the Buddhist lamas who attempt multiple subsequent rebirths into equally spiritual positions and monasteries. They have a mechanism for running that process, and for them validating that it's working so its actually the western esoteric system is kind of lacking this but clearly at an elite level the awareness of it was still there

28:05 It is amazing. This is like exhibit A for the case that I've heard people trying to make for such a long time without having any real evidence or proof, this is no small thing and I guess we should address dead on why it's called The Game of Saturn? The figure of Saturn pervades this deck at every level I've got a quote here, it's by Proclus in his Platonic Theology. He says all Greek theology is the offspring of Orphic mystical doctrine and if you look at the Orphic theogony it starts out with Kronos, the great serpent gives birth to an egg and from the egg it splits apart to create the land and the sky and within it is the figure of Phenes

28:56 Wound around by a large serpent so this is a very early. Component that's situation chronos at the most fundamental point of creation, okay i'm chronos is saturn right and for the carthaginians he was ball how long added the bible appears as malloc Okay, these are all the same entity but different aspects of it. So with this roots in the Orphic tradition Kronos becomes the central player He is the demiurge he is to create our entity so the serpentine or draconian form Of the deity is the primal one Mm-hmm okay That's why the game of Saturn and then multiple cards within the deck kind of replay this this theme

29:51 of the serpent as Saturn, as the serpent as Balhamon. You know whoever put this thing together had a very good grasp of mythology and theology and cosmology of various faiths That is so true. And along this line, to quote you again you say the Dex theology embraces Gnostic cosmology in its totality but nevertheless discards liberation in favor of the positive embrace of the Demiurge's worldly rulership Is this just say that there was a mindset within the 15th century elite that says hey Demiurge I know your boss we figured this out So how can I get on your good side? How can we work out a deal

30:33 I couldn't put it better myself, Greg. That's it! You got it! Wow. It seems so in line with conspiratorial suggestions today that the elite have made a deal with the Demiurge to basically be the management class on the earthly plane, to opt out of the rebirth cycle and stay in these positions maintain these bloodlines and then exchange vast amounts of material wealth and power I guess that's a worldview that is pretty aligned with this 15 century elite heirloom and its chain of custody Yes, the horrible realization isn't it that those conspiracy theories have their roots in a real tradition. You know that's the bottom line with this reading of the deck this interpretation of the deck. It's horribly real.

31:27 Right. And that's kind of like what I just think is so provocative about it and you write about how they had this worldview that each person or soul coordinates with a star in the sky, and the deck contains references to a star kaput angle? I guess is how it's something I've heard. Yeah, that's a star I've never really hear talked about what do we know about this stars attributed characteristics What are the references to this star mean to you It's the most malefic star In the sky bar none so if you wanna do that have a kind of sorcery imaginable this is definitely one of the ingredients the energies of this particular star. That's why it's there that's why its kinda highlighted in the deck its part of a brew

32:20 A dark brew. And because it's a fixed star, whatever malefic intention you have its energy will tend to fix it in place and prolong its activity And that's why the fixed stars are important for that and a malefic fixed star kind of has the double action of adding to the dark brew whilst maintaining its pervasiveness, its influence, it effect on people. But I wanted – perhaps it's just worthwhile contextualizing what we set up to now Greg because

33:02 Add the graphic work has identified and opened out of phenomenal dark shamanism i'm pretty is now. People especially in the west to be looking towards shamanism as this liberating force, You know is ecologically conscious and all these good things i'm with kind of neglected the fact that there's a complimentary shamanism which is correctly characterize this dark shamanism, add those who wanna follow this up does an excellent collection of academic essays called in darkness and secrecy by white head and right. Add it very much concentrate on doc shamanism within the amazon area

33:45 But the core of this is assault sorcery and a kind of cosmological construct we can perhaps best describe as a cosmology of predation. And at the core of this is that these shaman opens themselves to possession by the most powerful, predatory entity that they can summon And in that form they either can go out of body to wreak havoc or they can command lesser entities to do their bidding. So this is a core ethnographic construct, now the strange thing is that when we look at the card specifically one card called Ipeo it shows a monk with dragon wings and within the sequence of ritual cards within the deck

34:39 You see a series that are intended to induce possession by draconian entity. And that card it payout actually depicts the monk totally possessed by the nct, so when does different grades of possession of course you know you can have. Hold variety but complete possession means the total displacement of the persona the person will have no memory whatsoever post What they've done of what happened the possession is complete okay so in the context that dark shamanism we're seeing a graphically attested process whereby doc shaman open themselves to position by these predatory entities and then use that power so speak to reach havoc on whatever kind

35:35 they intend to do. So that construct perfectly fits the imagery that we're dealing with and the kind of uses that this Renaissance elite would have Yes it's quite amazing and you know there is a lot of people even today we hear little nuggets of wisdom dropped by those who have kind of touched the fringes of elite circles or worked in certain industries like banking, politics at high levels and they come out and say. You know, these people are possessed and you're like...you don't think of that literally but that's a term that is thrown around quite often when describing the way these people act and the way it feels to be around them. Exactly! And this is now if we can only start connecting our ethnographic and historical information to the current situation, we can begin to illuminate some of these things for the first time

36:34 They start to make sense when you contextualize them but you gotta get the right background in place in order to do that. Absolutely. And, you know another element of that background is you say that the D'Este worldview entirely explains the magically oriented motivations of the deck's design and use and D'Este is a name that comes up a lot in your book I don't hear it all that often outside of your book but tell us about that family and their connection to this deck Yeah they kind of a marriage out of obscurity in the you know tenth century or so and this various branches of this family and your right there obscure i certainly didn't have. Any particular awareness of them when i started this project but they initially came to be the rulers are off the city state of ferrara, how close we allied with venice it's within that context that the deck was designed to create it

37:38 Now, it turns out that the Italian branch is a cadet branch of the larger family in the Austro-Hungarian area. The Guelfeste and the other cadet branch of this family are the Hanoverian monarchs so let me put this in an historical context I think something like 17th century Mary de Este of Medena married the Duke of York When he send it to the throne of england she became queen of england okay and it was a short lived monarchy but then, there is an interregnum and then the hannoverian monarchs took over. And this is george the first second third all these people now we're talking about arc of history which leads from supremacy in the renaissance for about three hundred years

38:40 And then kind of switches saddles okay just in time to catch the rise of the british empire. Add at the end of that the tail end of that catches the start off the usa. Right and so the implication there is that there's maybe a network working within groups It doesn't have the same allegiances as we might think and you know when one Empire declines in another rises some of these Figures or what? We might call the Brotherhood of Saturn. They seem to emerge in these new empires as well as the collapsing ones yeah, so

39:19 You have to put all the points of view together you have to pile them all together to make sense of these kind of patterns because they historically there so long lived and this takes us right back to by zantium again where this pagan philosopher who. Introduce these ideas to italy had a pagan school which taught purgy, which taught ritual magic and was completely a pagan entity. So what I'm saying is there's a tradition of a ritual praxis that was invented God knows when it was alive and well in 15th century Byzantium and it now captured within these cards and carried forward And again how come we have these cards? Where have they been for 300 years

40:15 is a mystery. But they surface now, we kind of open them out now and this is the story they're telling us. It's amazing and that is one of my questions for you is what other insights can we get from tracing that chain of custody? I mean, I know we know the early steps and we obviously know where it ended up in Milan but are there other nodes or bullet points on that chain of custody that you find curious or interesting? I'm really at a loss to fill in the gaps it's completely conjectural. And this like three hundred years where the deck is just invisible i mean just disappears, based on certain marks i mean that was great right and then they printed the sheets and then one set of sheets were painted and delivered to person called marin sonudo information patrician add

41:15 Curious thing about the marks that were placed on the deck is that identifies him it identifies the fact that he was gay. I need identify as a fact that almost certainly the ferries were able to manipulate and support him into betraying venice so that the debt is like a payoff In a very important operation that farra ran against venice and it's also reminded to him that at any time if you open his mouth or, stop school operating they've got enough on him to see him burn up the state.

41:54 So there's that level of historical interpretation. Now again, Marin Sanuto who was he? Well his mother's family the Venier family and the Veniers claim to be descendants of the Emperor Valerian okay and then you check out the emperor Valerian it turns out is one of the child sacrificing emperors of late role nice he was notorious for it yeah i'm not brings you a back again to the card in the deck showing the child over the fire alarm what the heck is going on here. There's a disturbing aspect to this and in respect to the fact that all of the court cards the name to court cards nine of them,

42:39 All have one thing in common they to pick. Figures related to the conception of alexander the great not do anything alexander the great actually did you know which is what most people are interested but his conception, i want you look into the alexander romance literature there's one characteristic about his conception that stands out his mother's intercourse with Baal Hamon. So Alexander is like a demigod, you know? And again this is one of the connections that deeply woven into the texture of the Dex imagery and symbolism connects Saturn, Kronos, the Draconian force and the Carthaginian god Baal Hamon who was known for one thing or one thing alone

43:30 This is the sacrifice of small children. Mulk, it was called and it's from that word mulk that we get the name moloch in the Bible. Wow! So we have these blind spots in The Chain Of Custody of The Deck can you maybe tell us how it got out of private hands and into the public sphere? Into a museum? Well let me just kind of touch on whatever I do know which is very little so it won't take long Marissa new died in venice in the early sixteen century and all his effects were auctioned at that point now. There's a jump of like two three hundred years to a milanese family the marquesa serb alone.

44:16 As far as I can tell there's only one connection between the serb elite and venice of the sixteenth century. It was one of the early members of serbia family two brothers in fact what became pope the other became a notorious break and then got promoted as a hitman for francesco sports so you know he was playing his trade and obviously got into trouble and had to escape I need to document it in various parts of europe you know no doubt further enhancing his skill set and some point in the course of that he got special recognition. From venice for services rendered with i don't want to speculate what they may have been but it kind of a noble him,

45:06 So that's the one connection. He would have been in Venice about the time that the deck came on the market, it was auctioned and I'll say the next thing is the deck turns up in the hands of the Marquise Cerbaloni dated about 1830. There's an antiquarian Count Chicanara who examined the cards at that point saying they were in the hands of the Marquis Cerbaloni Rolling forward from that point a set of these cards were sent photographic images of the cars was sent to the british museum 1909 i think, put on display there where pamela colman smith the designer of the popular weight smith tarot deck would have seen them.

45:56 And it's aspects of their imagery, which you now find in pretty well every tarot deck in the world today. So kind of unconsciously propagated the imagery of Solibusca into pretty well everybody's taro deck. And that seems to be how magic works right? I mean these influences, the power in them they seem to kind of spread out kind of spider web out even if it's not obvious on the surface that's kind of an interesting aspect I think again you know from an easter terry point of view we have to recognize that when we talk about these energies. How is that are the subject of a satanic work not many people talk about agency, in that context most of us thing of energy is like the light switch switches which it on switch it off yeah has rules it based on rules but

46:51 In a historic sense these energies have agency there pretty well like you or me in many respects and that is the way in which. The energy behind the deck would've been interpreted in the fifteenth century. Okay it's not some background buzz of energy right its an agents work okay so and That makes all the difference. If you start conceptualizing those energies working through history in terms of agency, then you have to rethink a lot of stuff. No doubt. Man! So just to follow up with the lineage of the cards – what's the end bookend for the path these cards have taken?

47:38 Okay so around nineteen eighty eight or so german austrian tarot list got permission to photograph the cars and he made a reproduction deck. And then what two thousand nine or so the italian state stepped in, tell your ministry of culture stepped in and bought the entire deck i believe from the descendants of the serb family that is never stated i believe that's and they bought it for eight hundred thousand euro. Add dates now in the gallery in milan

48:18 It's held there. Our imagery in the book and as you know, the Scarlet Imprint are about to start shipping a reproduction perfect reproduction of this deck The imagery is being provided by the Breret Gallery to us to make the book and the deck, okay? So that takes you right up to date. It's just I love it man and just to find this evidence of a continuity of elite power and a consistency of occult beliefs among their ranks is mind-blowing it's really like what a conspiracy enthusiast has been looking for for a long long time Yeah, I think you've got to get into the mindset not just of the elite

49:00 but of what I call hardcore esotericism to get this stuff. Yes, and on that subject you mentioned Platonism a little bit everybody knows Plato by name but it's really interesting because you talk about his philosophy really does have kind of a linkage to empowering the elite or justifying the elites power and that thread isn't usually highlighted when you're discussing Plato in his philosophy but that might be why he is such a household name and why he's gonna been held in such high regard as because, as far as the elite are concerned. He provides a basis for

49:37 why they are at the top and we're at the bottom. Yeah, I think the whole way in which Plato's work has been handled or treated and certainly by educational institutions has varied enormously there is like you know before the church and after the church so in the ancient world Plato's teachings were from a very early date you know he has all these dialogues there must be what 30 40 dialogues people were coming up for ideal sequences in which to study these dialogs okay but they always started with the same dialogue al-kabidis now why is that al-kabidis deals with one thing only and that is al-kabidis is a very rich kid

50:29 who his parents have died, he doesn't actually have a clear sense of what's what. But he wants to make his mark on society and because of his wealth, he is going to enter the political process in Athens okay? So that's the scenario that Alcibiades' dialogue sets up for us. In his discourse or his dialogue with Socrates, Socrates is attempting to say to him you're looking for self-aggrandizement What about service okay so the whole theme of the platonic dialogue sick they touch on many things you know ethics theory of knowledge you name it. But ultimately its how can i delete governor society justly this is the core issue a platinum and in order to be able to,

51:21 Justly run a society you have to be entitled to do so you have to be totally selfless blah blah blah okay and part of that. Play those recommendations is the elite should sacrifice all wealth and power they shouldn't hold any property for no money they shouldn't inherit anything, They have to be solely dedicated to justice and part of becoming just is to become enlightened in your person, selfless and enlightened. This is the platonic ideal for the elite now you can see how far away we are from absolutely getting anywhere near that but that was the inspiration there and in order to project that kind of

52:11 Justice forward through the generations play to elaborate at this system of meta psychosis and spiritual internal growth so that you know within the platonic tradition. Add this phrase the holy papyrus minority the aluminum ones people would actually seek to become a lumen in the nature and therefore capable love dealing justly out of their very essence. And because they don't have these family ties, this wealth, this property, they just do what's right." Okay? This was the platonic ideal

52:52 Now, the esoteric aspects of that is that such an illumined elite would also have the highest connection with the deities and so on. So they would drive the process of subsequent metapsychosis or rebirth if you like. Okay? So it'd become a self-perpetuating mechanism Now somewhere along the line, Greg. This idea of dropping wealth property and family ties and not having them to influence your justice got lost. I'd say so And i think it got lost very early in human history So we're living essentially with a dark platonism

53:36 It was not intended i mean as far as play those two masses concerned the demiurge is a day of the who is filled with light he's not a dark. Enter to your tall haha it looks towards the source you know everything play took all that good jesus like an impersonal refuge in sores and its field with the beauty of bad intern sand then creates after the matter off that now This is like fourth, fifth century BCE. And then by the time we get to the first and second centuries BCE and the first and second centuries CE this demiurge has now flipped over he's become a dark entity ignorant entity that refuses to acknowledge the source of his own power and thinks that he is the ultimate

54:31 in terms of creativity everything is beholden to him and everything is owed to him. And this darkening of the figure of the Demiurge as a historical fact which I don't think anyone has given an explanation on. Yeah it's very curious It's absolutely central to the understanding of how things got flipped over Because from this point on, you know you have the Gnostic cosmologies all identify a dark Demiurge and the need to liberate yourself from him. And therefore that gives rise to a Dark Gnosticism which is acknowledging the dark Demiurge and working with him okay? But this is a historical phenomenon it was certainly never like that in the original Platonic writing

55:24 I can say one thing though, and maybe this will help to contextualize it is that we can't just look at Plato or we cannot just look at Orphism. There's a whole range of theogonies like Hesiod's Theogony you know the birth of all the different gods and throughout the Mediterranean basin you have a lot of different creation stories okay so you get a very mixed bowl of starting points And depending on the starting point you take, you end up in a different place. Now for the Renaissance elite their key influence if I'm right it was George Gymnastus better known as Plato and his conception was that he took classical Greek or Hellenistic theology

56:18 He says there's absolute three entities, like a Zeus or Poseidon and he said Hercate. And beneath them you have a set of celestial deities and a set of Chthonic deities. The Chthonic deities are ruled by Saturn and they run the planet. They run this planet so his theology again is is a little different from What played out originally set out but it does just towards the privacy of saturn in the world view. Okay and that's why i take place on a flight stepping off point from ancient tradition into this what we call the modern world pre-modern world of the renaissance and that's why satan features so highly,

57:11 within subsequent modern history, I think. It's so hard to get a real sense of why that polar opposite view would be taken on the demiurge or just to say the creator of the material world like it's also just hard to wrap your head around because this is an entity that Today it's like we can't really see, we feel like we can't see it or we feel like we can't really get a handle on something that is so outside of ourself but they seem to find some clues to kind of draw conclusions on or build up personality profile back in the day and then for it did go the complete polar opposite way. It just so curious. It is strange and

57:55 Again you know it's like the answers are not gonna be found in digging through these theogenies we have to think about our own specific situation. Now add what priorities we have a lot what we have to work on i think the issue is centrally a moral issues that were faced with today, So whether you accept the existence of a demiurge or not is kind of beside the point. The energies that people work on, or with in practice are of a much lower order so that what we're faced with is a far more localized issue it's...in my perspective

58:41 I see it as a interdimensional penetration of this reality by other realities and all the multitude multiple orders are beings ok so in a sense the issue is far more complicated but its it's far less theoretical. So coming from background of energy healing you tend to get the extreme cases, I mean it's like if you work in the accident and emergency ward friday night okay saturday night you're gonna see. Extreme cases and in a sense energy healing also brings u confront you with pretty extreme cases, from that i draw the conclusion that we have to say this into penetration of multiple dimensions

59:32 And the crossover on occasion of entities between these dimensions. And I think the anchoring is the fact that our consciousness is in my perspective a field, you know it's not byproduct of your neural activity right? It's a field like I think it has a family context that has the community and has historical contacts, it's almost as though everything that seven thought or done coexist at the same time. And thats the way we experience consciousness when we work with it in energetic way i'm thinking in terms of constellation therapy of course you know you get complete strangers in the middle of the room you put them in

1:00:16 Some positions to represent family members, even if the family members are dead gone a hundred years ago doesn't matter Those people will start to manifest the thoughts behavior and feelings of the people they're representing Even though they know nothing about them Wow So you know I mean? I would recommend anyone go along to half a dozen sessions of constellation therapy and just try it out It's gonna change your views of reality That's did that anything. I don't wow So other cases where we have one on one healing, you know We have people who deceased coming through to help in the healing process Other times I've dealt with very very very dangerous and difficult entities that seem to haunt people Wow a very abusive relationship You know remember this film The Entity?

1:01:08 Yeah, there's some very dark stuff going on and there is some very bright stuff as well. You know, the role of higher order beings is not sufficiently taken account of in my experience in this conspiracy world. People are very much focused on dark side which is there. There's no doubt about it. It's dangerous. It's dark but it's not the whole story and ability to cleanse and purify yourself and make a connection with higher order beings is always an option. It's an option everyone and it brings extraordinary confidence and strength.

1:01:51 Yeah, I mean it sounds so interesting and something i'd like to experience more and experiment with more. And it just seems like when you trace the evolution of ideas and things that have been projected into the culture its like this most recent round of materialist science of atheism I mean this is like a deception that gets the culture even further away from Not only the things you're talking about that just seem to be part of reality structure but even the elite belief systems that are hidden behind the curtain it's just another layer of separation and seems to be like one of the biggest deceptions of our time that any intelligent person would be a.

1:02:31 material atheist, because that's the view that I kind of grew up with and adopted and then discarded after a crazy psychedelic trip that showed that wasn't true. But it just seems like a major deception to inject that type of worldview because it's further and further away from the stuff we're talking about." Yeah, as well just an aside to that I think you have to be careful when you deal with a lot of conspiracy stuff. It also tends to depress you so it actually closes down your awareness and it takes something away from you. It steals something from you okay? So unless you're doing the compensatory work on the light side unless you're engaged in serious meaningful work

1:03:14 You know, like you do something in the community which is meaningful. Unless you're taking a lot of care with what you eat and drink, you're going to get caught. You know that the strong dark currents can carry most people along right so you need to do a lot of recovery work on yourself and people around you i guess being very fortunate you know i have the opportunity to see some very light entities at work. Add that is encourage me to say these things to be honest, Sure. Yeah, that's something we definitely don't hear about that often can you give us like an example or two of the light side of these entities?

1:03:55 I'll tell you one very straight story because it baffled me as well. This was about 20 years ago, and I dragged along to see this guy Tom Kenyon—I'd never heard of him—and he was apparently channeling these entities called the Hathors and my eyes were just like rolled up! So I said, okay. I went along with this gang you know we're sitting there in this like amphitheater and Tom's sitting on a chair down on the stage you know and he starts singing well this guy has no 10 octaves to his voice it is absolutely stunning beautiful And this was going on all of a sudden i saw arraigned in front of him six beautiful white columns of light

1:04:44 And they were like glittering you know and these are like five or six meters high i was just like wow it's like an overlay on reality that strange thing. I'm done these figures the columns just drifted out of the apron, add up through the audience and disappeared you know and laid on in this I was not a performance but whatever Tom Kenyon is doing with these entities, he's apparently getting advice and stuff. Somebody in the audience said well what did these Hathors look like? And Tom immediately said oh when they manifest you'll see them as tall white columns of light and that's exactly what i saw over there so why I was chosen to see these things I don't know. I am a bit sensitive to energies but there they were

1:05:39 Wow and the advice they gave me i checked tom stuff every now and again it's all about ascension that's all about you know, cleansing purifying the channels so on you know good clean stuff there is no doubt about it but if these higher order beings are indeed there looks like to me as though they are then there some restrictions on what they can do On this play and i would suggest that each person's moral or ethical behavior is the core of the limiting factor. Remember martin luther king said you know the trajectory of the universe long but it bends towards justice,

1:06:24 And that's what I see in the constellation therapy that we do, that the core disturbances in reality arise from some form of injustice. When you expurgate that injustice when you correct it, you harmonize the fields So there's an ongoing task that energy healers are embarked upon on a personal, on the community level. We're trying to create that justice we're trying to eradicate cramps and squeezes everything within the fields of consciousness arising from injustice

1:07:04 And it's injustice that seems to me the core characteristic of the elite. Agreed, and such a noble goal that you're working with! So this is the work Greg, you know? You get on and do the work, and in doing that work you rise above fear and pessimism arising from darkness Well said. Yeah, you can only stare into the abyss so long without doing stuff on the other side. Yeah you're going to fall in if you look long enough! Right on, man. So to bring this back to the deck a little bit and to talk about the deck in terms of the card types of a tarot deck like we have the trump cards, the suit cards, the court cards... If we're going to talk about the trump cards these are the ones in this deck that seem to be mainly military men and armor with weapons some recognizable names some not scenes ranging from unrecognizable ritual to that baby held over the fire

1:08:04 And you mentioned that of the known names and soldiers in the trumps, most of them refer to players in Roman battles in North Africa. That's interesting. What is that a clue too? Is there more connective tissue to these figures that you could tell us about? Dr. Jonathan Sarna What it looks like is that the additional imagery on those cards allows you to tie down a set of Roman generals who were embarked on one or other of the so-called Punic Wars. These were three great wars that Rome fought with Carthage, and so the theme again brings you back to North Africa, to Carthage, to the reigning deity of Carthage, Baal Haman, and to the most characteristic form of sacrifice that was practiced in Carthage which is the child immolation

1:08:56 Right, so is this… Is it almost like a who's who of people who had these beliefs? Is that the assumption about the actual people on the cards? I don't think so. I think it's just pointing towards North Africa, just like the cards relating to...the court cards relating to Alexander's conception in themselves most of them are fairly insignificant figures but when you put them together they're identifiable as the conception story which is Alexander's conception by Bal Haman of North Africa Carthage again Okay, so it very strongly reinforces and this is really – it's actually a very curious feature of the deck that it should point in such a forceful way to an entity or being whose really is totally identified with child sacrifice.

1:09:52 I mean, it's a very dark aspect of the Dex imagery. I would say so and when it comes to the suit cards what would you tell us that's interesting about those? The main thing about the suit cards is that we have an opportunity, I'm talking to the audience out there, to put your thinking caps on and see if we can break the code. Almost all of the suit cards have eluded decryption up until now. It's also worth noting that the deck in question is the first, I suppose, and for the next 500 years the only deck to feature fully illustrated suit cards. Is that right?

1:10:33 That's right and you know simply isn't needed for the game of turkey. You just have normal suit cards for any kind of cards no they've used the forty suit cards to convey, what should i do not know what they did that they can be a very strange set up themes there is a couple of them that we have managed to get a grip off And if I could say it, I would like to say that they seem to demonstrate a pattern of either homoerotic activity and possibly ritualized homoerotic activity. Okay? So again...

1:11:15 The ritual activity, the deck embodies a number of ritual techniques and substances. It uses salmon and menstrual fluid as part of the rituals. And this is fairly typical of certainly Renaissance magic and it echoes through the ages. So yeah some of the suit cards embody this type of information So it's almost as though the suit cards have been used to amplify certain aspects of the Dex ritual praxis, but we haven't managed to decode most of them yet.

1:12:00 comes up in these is contorted people. And I was wondering, are those positions of the contorted people on the cards consistent in any way with what you described a little bit ago? That sort of channeling... You know, you put people in certain positions and they can start embodying characteristics of the dead. Are those contorted images in anyway consistent with what you know about that practice? This is a very complicated issue now. I think where we're dealing with there's multiple levels of encryption Let me give you an example there's a number of the trump cards which have roman numerals and a name and the name is meaningless okay but if you can catenate the roman numerals on the name. I'm treat them all as a day as characters you can then separate them out like an anagram, add what you have is a number of two or three words elements

1:13:02 And those elements can then be translated into full words using a system of encoding called Sigla. And just a few weeks ago, we found that the Voynich manuscript they had suggested that the Voynich manuscripts illegibility up to now was because it had been encoded using Sigla. Now, Sigla was a standard form of abbreviation developed in Rome so that you take the first and last letter of a word or the first middle and last letter, and concatenate them. So we have in effect the form of shorthand. If you take an expression, you can shrink it, condense it into these two three elements, then you can jumble them together so that you hide the meaning. This is one level of encryption

1:13:58 Another level of encryption is you just alluded to the fact that some other figures have very distorted shape. It may be that they represent, and I'm not sure this Hebrew characters. And a Hebrew characters would give you a name at a number now The reason why it could be Hebrew is that almost universally in the 15th century, Hebrew was accepted as a sacred language. So even in a deck like this which seems to be wholly pagan

1:14:36 Is possible that they use hebrew is another level of encryption. What we're dealing with therefore it is multiple levels of encryption and this is the next task so to speak in relation to the deck it needs crypt analysis, add a water mention that in the context of the fifteenth century cryptography was very advanced art ok especially when you take words and you take images, and you kind of cross them over each other. So that some words appear as images, as we suggested with the contorted figures, And some images and symbols are converted into words which we get with Sigla

1:15:25 Okay, so we're facing a very interesting task at this point. Right Which is the next stage is a cryptographical analysis of the deck and I've started making notes towards that and I don't know how far up there... There's some other factors which people probably should be aware of There's a form of encryption whereby using an image you distort its Proportions to carry an additional weight of meaning so for instance there's a figure holding a child over fire right. But the child is huge in comparison to the small campfire it held over this disproportion that. So the question therefore is,

1:16:16 Is the designer alluding to child sacrifice, which seems to be the obvious explanation? Or is he through the use of proportion suggesting that the actual child is not a real physical child. In other words, is it homunculus and the whole science off the homunculus was big stuff in the 15th century So, typically they would have perceived for instance sperm as homunculi. self-sufficient to turn into a figure. Okay, so there's a whole ream of magical text dealing with the conversion or the creation of homunculi. Okay, so again you know there are some levels of this deck we need to understand that it is a multi layered structure It is carrying a huge weight of meaning

1:17:17 Let me just mention this. A very famous professor actually pointed it out to me, if you look on one of the cards it's called Boko and shows this like craven figure kneeling holding a shield in front of him and the shield depicts the Sunoodo coat-of-arms and there is like a golden band across it If you focus in and in on this card until you've got a massive blow up of the corners, of this gold band. You'll see that it's actually demonic fellatio that is being depicted. Yikes! Okay so again now there are a number of artistic moves like the hem of clothing seems to have some figures

1:18:08 in it and it's only on extreme magnification you start to recognize, oh maybe these are some alphabet. I'm not sure which alphabet so the process of Renaissance artists encoding information in this way is a bit like the micro dot in modern espionage place the micro dot on a page as a full stop I don't let you know it's there and where to find that you never gonna see the renaissance artists doing the same thing with miniaturization. Wow so to sum up we're dealing with multiple levels of encryption, which take images and turn them into letters and letters into images sometimes they use proportions sometimes use miniaturize asian sometimes contextual is a ship to purvey a message

1:19:05 Obviously, it's very deep and it's really tough to unpack. I mean that just makes what you've done all that more fascinating and I guess to focus in on another card that apparently is of key interest would be the Queen of Cups because it has the references to human sacrifice like tell us a little bit about the details of that particular card. There are two cards one is called Olympia I want to school policy center okay and these two cards work in tandem with each other they both. Depict queens one of them is sat in front of like a cup with the serpent coming out of it, add the other one showing a more mature figure now olympia was alexander the great mother

1:19:58 Okay so she's responsible in all the romance literature it's her who has intercourse with the god ball how long in the form of a dragon. Give birth to alexander but in her made and persona she was no one else policy center palace center she wasn't notorious for her probably dionysian worship you know it's like wild ecstatic snake cult Okay, so that is there. Now Olympia was the head of or a scion of the house of Epirus and her ancestors would be Achilles and Achilles died in the Trojan War right? And they took a Trojan princess Polyxena and sacrificed her over his grave

1:20:58 So again this is like this transgenerational connectivity being suggested you have a limp yeah you have a maiden persona policy and you have helena is another of the court cards well helena's obviously hell in the dry. I'm not pulls polish center in her wake to act off human sacrifice again, Again so here's another level of encryption whereby using association historical association of names or literary association of names.

1:21:34 you can suggest this transgenerational connectivity. Now why is Troy significant? You know, this came up when I talked to Gordon. I didn't answer it properly let me give you a better answer Greg. Troy is significant because in Strabo's Geographia he describes the area around Troy called the troad as the realm or region of the Ophiogenus the serpent born. Okay, and the name of the tribe is the Azoisha and for those who are up to date with their knowledge of esotericism Azoisha of course is the name of Andrew Chumbly's great text of sabbatic craft okay his grimoire is called The Azoisha so the connection to the Ophiogenaeus and to the Troad also exists in the Esoteric tradition

1:22:31 So I just, just fill that out a little bit. Sure. Geez, I mean yeah you gotta study so much to kind of put these pieces together and this does bring us right into the court cards because the court cards to me are some of the most fascinating. Right in this nexus that you're discussing because as you said they are names on the cards like figures that almost exclusively relate to Alexander The Great but not his real triumphs and historical accomplishments it all seems to be this Alexander romance literature this idea He is from a lineage of a hybrid bloodline of a serpent dragon entity and this strange idea does come up in a lot of stories, have many royal bloodlines right? It doesn't need yeah it's pervasive in the ancient world. I knew you see it or medieval europe early medieval europe with the meravigians. You know there's this quinnitorial strange kind of

1:23:31 Sea Dragon is the ancestor of the Merovingian dynasty. Of course, the Merovingians are closely tied up with all the Templar treasure mysteries and you know all that stuff! I'm not going to get into that stuff! Yeah, but I mean also you list several like...I really want to dig in deep in the future into all these different little threads because to think that there could be any truth to this kind of thing and any way shape or form. Obviously it seems completely fantastical today but is there anyway which there could be a core truth to that idea? Like you talked about

1:24:14 spiritual fellatio, is it possible that the elite are offspring from a time when the gods mated with man in some way through some rituals or is it just all like self-congratulatory pomp and circumstance? Well from an energy worker perspective the interrelation of these species certainly occurs. In the healing context I mean people report Instances of this crossover i documented one and it's available for anyone who wants to read it was in the power psychology. That's our anthropology journal and i called lord of the flies add a particular case i started to deal with,

1:25:07 And it got heavier and heavier and i can't pass it off to somebody lot more capable than myself but essentially as we cleanse this person energetically they started to recover memories of having been sacrificed in a previous life. Add as part of that sacrifice stay at being pledged to a set of entities parasitic entities right Add it was those entities which in this life where we establishing their rights. Ok so because those entities are not constrained in the way we are without lifecycle and are like forgetting at the end of our life cycle, select restart a fresh each time hey i'm here for the first time add no send to say well no actually your pledge so

1:26:05 Let me put this in as blunt a way as I can. No, you're not free your lunch Okay for certain entities and certain class of healing issues that we have to deal with There's the problem of an assumed ownership Which if the person doesn't start to recognize? The transgenerational nature Of their dilemma they cannot break free of it Wow Yeah, it's important that you get hold of your ethical position in this lifetime. And if you refuse to acknowledge the breadth

1:26:48 of your responsibilities and connectivities in community and family, the recurrence of these patterns again and again from life to life. You can get enmeshed in a very dark bundle. To say the least! Yeah it's difficult to unwrap unless you start saying okay let's accept first of all that these things exist. You need a broader vision to free yourself from it Yeah that's just another layer of that deception to take us out of all this context because we have no frame a reference now way to orient ourselves if we don't even know the situation were in and I guess for people listening.

1:27:29 What would you say would be potential clues that people might have experienced in their life that might speak to that pledging or if they are pledged or who they might be pledged too? Are there things a person can look at, examine their own life and try to get a handle on this kind of stuff that seems so foreign. Yeah normally it will have surfaced in a number ways You need to look at addictions Did you look at stuff where your driven rather than driving obsession. Yeah it's often the characteristic of entity attachment that, no there is different layers of possession as i said earlier like start with infestation. That's when you have a lot of accidents things going wrong in your life, you know lots of money loss of inheritance this kind of stuff and from their account works up to

1:28:32 I'll call obsession where you become literally obsessed with certain things you may become addicted and that. Then can work up to the level of what we would call oppression is people were wake up with scratches and bruises on their body, you know this like stuff flying at them we had cases where people trying to connect them to a healer I'm like every time they call that he love the phones engage the healer calls them, i can never get through so you get this interference to hold a person in place. Okay and then the fourth level is possession where people actually get taken over by entities so you know this for science for layers in this and. More casual level perhaps is sexual predation in dreams

1:29:26 That's another sign that, you know… If that becomes a persistent pattern, you've got a problem. Wow! I mean there is a history of people calling addiction or indulgences to call them like bad humors or something to that effect? Yeah. I don't want to suggest that everything has always caused Buy some entities it's not the case these are rare cases but they do happen. I really don't wanna suggest we can explain everything like this is just not like that sure psychological has its place you know personality, you know we all have phases in our lives when we do a lot of stupid stuff

1:30:10 True. Guilty! So all of this stuff is going on, but occasionally you get people who are like in desperate straits and one case I had and it's disturbing but i'll mention it this was a very fit active young woman and then all of a sudden she started getting attacked at night in her dreams and the entity was raping her as bouncing off the walls This was obviously happening on an astral level She was taken to a psychiatrist or psychiatric clinic to cardiologist to, your psychiatrist of the sleep clinic i mean they tried everything and it just went on and on. She came to me and I just realized this is way outside my house like twenty years off still going on maybe five six seven times a month at least so medical profession has such a totally exhausted

1:31:10 They found nothing wrong with her, but things still going on. I sent it to a much more advanced healer and the first thing that happened is this entity turned to the healer and said you get involved in this i'm gonna kill you so this is where you know its kind of you hit a wall then okay So what is it that this person needs to do in themselves? To begin the process unraveling and this why was saying earlier In a sense you have to evolve you have to involve marley and quickly in your world view to deal with these things.

1:31:52 So, I would suggest if the darkness has any role in life it helps us to evolve quickly. Well said! Probably left to ourselves we'd just hang out. Most of us would you know? It's the classic ignorance is bliss kind of motif. Yeah yeah isn't it just you know but when like confront the dark side in life, we're forced to clarify our own situation, our own posture in relation to it. And that is spiritually evolutionary for ourselves so I don't offer that as a justification. I just say as a matter of fact, it seems to work like that. Well, I am just so fascinated with these...I guess you could call them like the mechanisms of magic or these aspects to reality's structure

1:32:42 And I guess, in terms of being pledged to dark entities is there a way in which over the years the elite have maintained and probably fleshed out these rituals? Is there a way that they could possibly en masse do some type of ritual that dedicates a large swath of people to dark entities. I think you know that is exactly a description of modern west society and culture. You know from 9-11 to you name it we're just hit with the wave of negativity

1:33:28 Wow, wow. I mean that's everything if these entities feed on negativity my god they must be having a feast Yeah, it's real smorgasbord out there. That's it geez So, I mean just to retouch on the idea of bloodlines having some type of serpent dragon reptilian origin. You mentioned the Merovingians you also talk about in the book The First King Of Athens, the Krekops they were considered to be half-serpent also a lot of coat of arms and crests for these families you'll see dragons and serpents

1:34:07 One type of animal you know it's very interesting that it always comes down to reptiles and not beetles or birds are mammals or I mean reptilian. Themes are just so pervasive and it is really interesting that you have these cards that are hundreds of years old, and these elite mythologies are even older. And then we have David Icke saying that the Elite and these royal bloodlines are actually reptilian in modern times! It's like through all of history this has been a theme and we just look the other way i guess? We can't...it's just too much to deal with Yeah i guess your question is the nature of the interaction between ourselves and these entities right right. I do see them as to an extent lying behind god forms,

1:34:53 It's almost like the primeval form of day it is the dragon. Okay so that is the way these entities would present themselves to us on a psychic level and they represent a raw source of power, and that's their attraction for people who are drawn to power these entities are there you know best friends promise them everything And to have that power in yourself or to have that entity generate your own Kundalini energy, you know activated is going to make you extremely powerful. But there's like a borderline between being activated and being possessed and I think more what you're getting at for the elite is that they actually allow possession yes dark ritual creates a

1:35:52 energetic space for possession to take place. Ritual generates a form of space which is neither objective nor subjective and again this is clear in the ethnographic record where anthropologists have attended rituals And there's been like normal rules of gravity and you know, the corpses getting up and walking. They experience these things it in the ethnographic record but it like falls a foul of our sharp distinction between subjective and objective You know if its so weird it must be psychological right? But actually ritual space is different kind of space

1:36:39 It's like exuded from the bodies of the ritual list and we see this again in constellation therapy where a group of people. Representing a family constellation even if i say the members along dead and gone doesn't matter brings into being energy feel which you can experience and feel over there, i would not field the boundaries of time space can get very fuzzy So that the past can live again. So it is a feature of ritual to create these kind of ambivalent crossover spaces and now, that's what makes them so efficacious for esoteric work. In those ritual spaces you can make the connections to whichever entities your intention is the navigator, so to speak

1:37:33 Gotcha. So that's really important to note because I've been interested in getting into magic, but as Gordon says be careful cause it could ruin your life and I'm like well my life is going pretty good right now! It's actually like...I feel like a got a lottery ticket with life right now so I don't know how much of this I want to get into but you know if your morally aligned the positive and your motivations are going to attract the more positive entities rather than negative? Well, just do anything which is meaningful in a community sense like healing work and you naturally align yourself with all those higher order beings who are purposefully supporting that type of work. You don't even need a ritual. Fair enough. They're there for you

1:38:22 You know, because higher order beings are by their nature purposeful ethical entities. It only requires that you align yourself with that okay? If you need to do light rituals fine I mean it's good! You know you'll have that connectivity I'd say, I saw those entities on Tom Kenyon's stage. His singing was enough to bring them into his presence so i don't doubt that they exist it's not necessary for me to do rituals and call them. I mean fair enough! I just concentrate on the healing work and they're there yeah because that's their nature

1:39:06 And that would be a question for you too, is like for people who have never experienced this kind of stuff and maybe have been listening to the show for awhile. We talked to these magical guests and they talk about quite a few things and maybe to some listeners it all seems abstract because they don't have a lot of personal experience or I've never seen an entity or anything like that. What would you suggest being in energy worker as the first steps to actually sensing that there is something to all this in a personal way. Yeah, I mean you could go along and witness constellation therapy for instance That will give you all the information You need to know about the creation of energy fields and what happens within them? You can go and get their standard Reiki initiation, you know Reiki is a beautiful healing energy It's immediately useful you can heal anyone yourself

1:40:02 cats dogs the neighbors whatever it's a no brainer but it's real powerful healing current. You know what comments i made earlier about agency it's a natural connection to higher order of being so those two easy peasy steps will take you long way down the road first you have to have clear intention to find meaning in your life Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean it makes a lot of sense You got to seek it out A lot of people can sit here with their arms crossed and say well, I don't feel anything. I don't see anything It's like we'll have you tried Have you really sought out these? Experts and teachers that might be able to kind of pry that door open for you if you haven't you really don't have much Of a leg to stand on not just that the teachers can't help you unless you have a positive intent To create meaning

1:40:54 In life in your life in the life of the people around you that's the driver it's an ethical driver. Fair enough and so one other aspect that comes up in the book a lot that is something that I never really hear talked about, is the practice of self fashioning and I thought that was kind of interesting like kinda posturing to invoke certain things perhaps like how do we see that aspect used among the elite or in these cards? That's a difficult question to answer. I think the idea of the self-fashioning is that it's the way in which people adapt themselves, to the society that they find themselves in and that's both a survival mechanism for sure but it can also become a very limiting posture to adopt unless you're careful

1:41:48 So, I think with Renaissance self-fashioning which is like the context for that concept. It's the decision to adopt a certain style and posture in life okay? And the posture and style that we see amongst those elites was a very self serving one you have to say that. The Renaissance courts were difficult highly competitive places For instance, Nicola the third day stay had children from twelve thirty different women and so every one of them thought of themselves as a rifle air. So you can imagine the competition and the violence that arose from that

1:42:38 So the self fashioning in the renaissance world was very much one get to survival in a ferry unruly competitive difficult dangerous. Course environment okay it is the posture of somebody who's saying i'm kind of invincible, And I think that is the page cards of this old busker deck beautifully suggest the style and poise of this like Renaissance self-fashioning. Well, that does beg another kind of out there speculative question which I tend to ask. And because you mentioned these elite having kids with so many different women is it possible if we also add in the context that they've made some dark pact with the Demiurge and the Archons to be the management class of the earthly plane and kind of the servants of these dark forces? Is it possible that we see situations where

1:43:40 People have maybe fallen off that elite family tree as the thing spreads out and gets more complex and hard to hold together especially with them having sex with so many different women and having offspring all over the place. Is it possible that some residue from this pact you know we talked about the idea of being pledged a certain entities, Is it possible that someone finds themselves four or five generations removed? They don't even know they're attached to any royal bloodline or anything deep down in that family tree. And yet, they find themselves pledged in some type of contract or they find that kind of residue attached to themselves."

1:44:16 Absolutely. Because if you like step through the mirror, instead of looking at this from the point of view of history, you step through the mirror into the reverse world where those entities have their being, their presence. They view time in a different way. They're not really concerned about the ins and outs of our deaths and rebirths For them there's a continuity, this concept probably of soul whatever that means has more meaning for them than it does for us. Yeah absolutely okay so they exist as potentialities in every generation behind the mirror and certain people in their lives feel impelled to make a connection with them even though they can't explain that drive

1:45:17 they feel impelled to make a connection with for instance power always some dark force, there's like a magnetism drawing energy of these beings these entities which is like holy strange and familiar at the same time repelling but attractive. It's like any of the Dracula movies you've watched. You know, it is like the thing in the microcosm is this right there so I believe that functions in that way doesn't require everyone in a generation but it will choose people and seek to attract them into its grip so speak but at the same time promising

1:46:07 These entities live as potentialities, as part of the power structure. And at any time they can call on any number of people who are so attracted to wealth and power that they'll do anything for that. There's never any shortage of candidates. And we've all been kind of conditioned to seek out wealth and power to some degree I mean that's kinda capitalism in a nutshell It is, exactly. Convenient! It's very convenient. Neoliberalism to the core. Wow well man I just love this i feel like i could do it all day but i gotta let you go sometime and i just really enjoyed the book and the conversation it's broken down quite well but it still requires so much historical context a lot of players were pretty new to me

1:46:55 It is just a great book that unlocks so many new threads and peeks behind the curtain during that era of the Italian Renaissance. And I think there's just so much to see behind it, so great work! Before I let you go, I did want also ask you because you are an energy worker and that's the expertise you have... Did that come into play at all when you were studying The Deck? When you put your hands on this thing we're talking about the energy of it. I mean did you experience that firsthand? Yeah i need a number of times i had a huge energy coming through greg i was like paralyzed for like four days it was so intense. And none of the energy workers around me could help could move it you know what are them tried to no and then they almost painted they have to go out of the room is that in ten so,

1:47:43 I was aware that something was driving this and the way the clues came to help me break this code, sometimes really strange. I'm not a great classic scholar or something for God's sakes. I studied philosophy at university but i didn't study ancient philosophies. Man well you could have fooled me! Sometimes I just felt like I was being led by the nose Sure. Stick your face here, look at this read that read this put two and two together okay let's move on you know as and this was the result don't ask me why this is manifested at this time I don't know Yeah like he mentioned before we really started recording that the story seems to want to be told in this particular moment Absolutely it's a big energy behind this

1:48:38 Fascinating so also as a wrapping things up can you remind the people where to get the book were to check out your website any of the other work you're doing that people might want to follow upon i'm sure they are very intrigued right now. The go-to people are scarlet imprint who I worked with on this project and they've done a superb job in designing the book, i need a general rate ship of this whole process be next one pleasure to work with them so scarlet imprint dot com is the go to place. The deck of cards perfect reproduction for the first time in five hundred years with the imagery coming from the gallery itself it's just come online that star shipping and ten days or so,

1:49:23 Some of the work I've done on ritual, on various aspects of entities is in the Paranthropology Journal. It's a peer-reviewed journal and i put it on my academia.edu page so there are like three essays there some bits of the book some of the essays that were formative very formative in writing books are also up there So, you can read those for free. I think you just need a registration as for my personal website it's a disaster. I'm going to have it rebuilt! You know how these things get out of date so I'm not gonna recommend that for anyone at this point. Cool cool well you are right Scarlet Imprint in an era of mass production they have preserved

1:50:11 and artisanship that you just don't see often anymore it's a beautiful thing it's great that you know you've written such amazing words and they were able to compliment that with a great, book. So it's just awesome, man. Presentation is beautiful isn't it? It is so all around amazing stuff you've definitely contributed to our scholarly understanding of the occult beliefs of the elite and I salute you for it take care out there man thank you very much Greg has been a pleasure You got it! Take care man. Sweet, sweet stranger things people. Peter Mark Adams and the game of Saturn What a great subject and whenever someone asks me if it's possible that the elite might have come from A reptilian bloodline of some kind or do I think the elite make deals with dark forces? I'm gonna say don't take my word for it Let's just see what the Italian Renaissance Elite had to say for themselves

1:51:09 It's provocative, and granted you can't see the art on the cards in an audio show but you can always use links in the show notes or just Google the deck. It is really one of my favorite types of episodes to do where we kind of examine something that can move the needle in terms of making a case for some far out positions And really what is more far out than a deal with the Demiurge to bypass the reincarnation cycle and rule over man as management class of this manifestation? Of course I can't say exactly why the deck was made, but given the context of the times it's clearly a very special piece and I love that Peter really let me run with this speculation. We pushed it today! But you know...that's what we do here. Peter though? What a knowledgeable guy, great writer…I just loved it To find this sort of physical evidence for continuity to elite power and consistency of occult beliefs among their ranks is mind-blowing

1:52:06 I also think this one pairs really nicely with Chris Noll's last week. Two of my favorite shows lately for sure If you don't sign up for Plus Now, I guess you just maybe never will because these are the shows that i'd be looking for In the second half of todays we got deeper into the deck in several ways We focused on the trump cards and why they point to northern Africa We broke down the mysteries of the suit cards The decks codes and multiple levels of encryption The science of the hermunculus Demonic fellatio! Cannot forget demonic fellatio. Also, the details of the cards that reference human sacrifice? What that's all about... How Troy was once referenced to as the realm of the serpent born

1:52:49 Also the court cards and the emphasis on half reptilian origins for certain elite bloodlines, how to tell if you were pledged to a dark entity in a previous life. The idea of the Elite pledging large groups of people to demons in mass rituals Dragons also just to ice the cake and the importance of positive polarity for good measure. Ken loved it, can't thank Peter and Scarlet Emperor enough Also Gordon for having him on Rune Soup and filling me in on just how fascinating this study was In other news, THC is doing another live show with Tinfoil Hat. This time I'm supposed to be doing stand-up so we'll see what I can come up with in a week's time with no prior experience and crippling anxiety but it is what it is! So remember remember the 8th of November at the La Jolla Comedy Store and this time I don't have to drive three hours back and forth to LA which is a beautiful thing We're gonna leave that to Sam Tripoli Ryan Davis and Eddie Bravo who will all be there

1:53:49 I got one more episode of The Higher Side to get out to you before the end of October and it is more just a fun one. The original plan was run through a bunch paranormal stories with a guy who's been an author in that world for decades but as soon we got going, he noted that he was 11 when Roswell happened and also had an outa body experience I actually just thought it was really interesting for me in a paranormal archive sort of sense to just hear the anecdotes and musings of a guy in his 80s who's lived and watched the Paranormal and Conspiratorial Wheelhouse for literally twice the length of my entire life.

1:54:26 I also have a hell of a Halloween story to tell you on that episode myself, but i'm getting out of here. I'm still trying to convince the wife to be my handmaid for Halloween for anyone who's seen the show because I could just wear a suit which is nice and easy but I don't think she's a huge fan of The Implication I guess i understand, but I gotta keep making my case and learn how to write jokes. So I'll see you soon! Your move Saturnian Brotherhood billionaire bloodlines and demiurgic dealmakers... You're fuckin' through. No one knows what it's like To be the bad man To be the sad man Behind blue eyes And no one knows what its like To be hated

1:55:23 To be fated to telling only lies But my dream set is empty As my conscience seems to be I have hour, lonely Lonely since they exposed me on THC

1:56:06 No one knows what it's like to feel these feelings like I do And I blame you! No one bites back as hard on their anger None of my pain and woe can show through But my dreams aren't as empty

1:56:44 As my conscience seems to be I have hours always lonely So take, expose me in THC But my dreams aren't as empty As my conscience

1:57:54 I have hours, always lonely since they exposed me on THC. No one knows what it's like to be the bad man To be the sad man behind