Brian Cotnoir | Practical Alchemy, Alchemical Philosophy, & The Orum Potibile

00:00 Welcome to another free first hour episode of the Hireside Chats. I know we want to get into the action, but i have to ask that you help me armor us up a bit for the bumpy road ahead because I bring you the first hour of this show without unrelated ad nonsense as proof-of-concept and if you value it then come over to THC Plus for $8 a month and hear full 2 hour interviews as they were designed to be and as you would enjoy them most Go to the higher side chats.com or just click the link in the show notes to get started and within a minute you'll be plugging in your new plus show RSS feed into a hopefully decentralized podcasting 2.0 supported app, feed the things you want to grow and starve the things that gotta go and we will reach the promised land think about that and enjoy the show

00:53 In the 1930s, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed the nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the Fireside Chats. His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times. From 1930 and I deal with a different kind of fire For a new era of worldly frustration we offer a- I'm Greg Carlwood These are The Hireside Chats Hello again, Hiresight Chatters living life from sunny San Diego. I'm Greg Carlwood and i have heard so many of the brightest minds say that one of the most important things you can do is dedicate some attention to truly developing your philosophy your metaphysics and your worldview

01:37 Many modern people do not take the time to do this. They bumble around, get dragged through an authoritarian school system and end up pushed into a cog-in-the wheel career with very little time dedicated to what they want to do thinking about their calling or engaging with the rites of passage and investigation the world feels designed for Now, you might think this was intentionally weeded out of culture or maybe it was just overlooked in overzealous capitalist pursuits. But for the individual to find true meaning and fulfillment it is a journey worth taking. And as I've tried on several philosophical hats the most interesting ones I found are cultivated from deep observation of nature or handed down from almost mythical figures of the deep past

02:21 Well, the rabbit hole that is the art and science of alchemy kind of ends up meeting both those criteria. And today's very learned guest Brian Cote-Noir is here to talk about it! Brian himself is an alchemist, artist, and award winning filmmaker He was a contributor to Frater Albertus' ParaAlchemy and has presented workshops and seminars around the world on various aspects of alchemical theory and practice He is the author of Practical Alchemy, Alchemy The Poetry Of Matter and translator of The Emerald Tablet. His work can be found at kephriipress.com and it's a real pleasure to have him here so let's do the damn thing! The alchemical authority and thrice great guide to the great work Brian Cotenoir welcome to the higher side. Thanks Greg thanks Greg

03:09 It's good to be here. I don't know about Thrice Great, but I'll just go with okay. Once okay. Fair enough! Yeah great to be here Yes this is gonna be a lot of fun Alchemists and magic practitioners are some of my favorite guests These folks who have just had this deep understanding of the natural world and the structure of reality, along with the engagement of strange mechanisms that are eternally baked into the reality cake but so few people today even acknowledge. It's just really interesting stuff to specialize in in today's world and it seems like no matter how deep you go there is always more to learn do you think thats fair to say?

03:50 Oh yes, oh yes. I mean that's just the nature of life in general there is always more to learn kind of dig into, go another layer down and whatever it is you do. Right? Yes. Yeah which makes the irony of so many people not really going beyond the surface level that much more ironic but your bio says you've been studying alchemy for over 45 years and I just have so much respect for that why did this grab you like it did what do you find so special about it with all the other things in the world a person could dedicate themselves to

04:27 It's an unhealthy obsession. It started actually very young, and it was just an absolute curiosity about things. The thing with alchemy as anybody who has ever done any little bit of reading on it beyond the works of Carl Jung is that you start to realize that as a study, it encompasses the processes of creation. And so right there, it touches on everything It just can't help not to touch on everything. And so that was one of the things that really drew me to it as a kid, actually I mean, I think as children we're all very naturally curious natural scientists in a way and that was part of it for me! I was actually as a kid very interested in the sciences did a lot of...just as kids do science kids stuff right? At the same time I really liked

05:25 art, drawing things like this and had a certain degree of ability with it as did the rest of my family actually had very good ability. So I was always interested in the two and it was one day...I had gotten my adult library card earlier and they used to go room the stacks in the local public library and I came across this book on alchemy And to be very honest, as I always say it really irritated me. And when I think back on it, I think part of that irritation was is that it was about both things. It was about kind of art and then at the same time it seemed to be science and then they had these incredible images and out of irritation I kept going back to it and they just kept going back to it and then I was kinda hooked

06:20 So there's a bookstore in New York City, or at the time anyway called Weiser's Bookstores and it's the oldest in the US, oldest occult book store. It closed recently but its online and actually they published my book, the book we're talking about Practical Alchemy And I went there for the first time in about 15-16 and saw The Writings of Paracelsus and I just thought okay This is the real deal. Things I was reading were more histories and it was interesting, but I wanted to read an alchemist." And uh...I picked a hell of a place to start! So I finally earned enough money, scrounged enough money over the next few years put my $35 down and got the two volumes It's like reading concrete But I kept at it and then just got really interested and then started to attempt to do some replication of some experiments

07:17 And then in 76, I was in 74-75. I was working at Weiser's bookstore but how could I not? And Frater Albertus published his work The Alchemist Handbook and that was published in 76 so I had seen like working at Weiser's sort of the galley proofs of that photocopied it quietly and snuck it out And that's a very important work. This is the work that really pretty much, I would say there was a trend, there was a small circle both in the US mostly in Europe that was practicing and doing actual plant and mineral and metalwork but this was the book that really gave it the impetus. Prata Albertis' Alchemist Handbook. And its all about practical alchemy. And that was it! I then really started getting very serious about it

08:13 Started doing more experiments and then went back to college after a few years, after I did my time at Weiser University as somebody once called it. Because they had a basement there and in that basement was a collection of like just used esoteric occult books going back for whatever. It was Library of Alexandria underground. It was amazing! So people we used to try to get work there just to be able to go and read So anyhow, I went on and then just really studied chemistry. And then just kind of went on to continue doing my own research and then eventually what I do with my work is I'll do concrete work on one level or another inner work as well. Then when I feel like come to any insight on something where something that could be how's I call it useful

09:10 And I think of useful as, I wish I had this in my hands when I was 17. When I was really getting seriously started and so that's what I do periodically I will write some things and put them out And it is for the idea of stimulating others to continue on with this work It is all usually very practical even if its inner work Like I am thinking right now not so much of Weiser's book Practical Alchemy The other work I do is zines, or zenes. And what I do with those is as I have... As I do my work and research in alchemy you come across all these very interesting side topics that you just go, that is too cool! Alright? So you start a file folder on it every time you come across the reference to this thing you put it in there and there were few of them like I know I will never do deep research on it I just don't have the time in my life

10:13 But at the same time, there's enough there that's like really interesting that maybe somebody else will go do something. So I lay out the questions, lay out the problems provide a bibliography some thoughts of my own maybe what i would do with it and that's how the zines operate It's a major cut and paste job kind of thing. But you know, when I first started learning about alchemy, I did not have a lot of patience or respect for the spiritual side of things. I wanted to hear stories of minerals being transformed and ascended masters handing over the keys to matter, unlocking substances that defy conventional logic...and there is all that! It's the spirituality and philosophy that should be the scaffolding that gets a person to that other stuff.

11:14 What would you say is at the heart of that spirituality or philosophy that is mostly missing from the modern world? Well, that goes right to the heart of what my research and work is about. So let me define how I use the term alchemist. We're all on the same page and this is something kind of developed out of writings from Paracelsus other writers who have defined it as well. And so alchemy is the art in science of bringing something to its final completion right, or its final perfection. And you can break this down right? So an art and a science it's exactly that it's like medicine in that way there are things that are very practical scientific you do this you get this result That is just the nature of what your dealing with The art aspect like medicine as well yes sometimes that does happen but there other elements of medicine that come into play so this also true about alchemy Alchemy is about investigating

12:17 sort of the universe inner and outer using all ways of knowing. It doesn't say, oh well we don't use intuition, we don't use logic, we just kind of go... you know? No! All channels are open and you try to work with all channels this gives you a multi-perspective view of something contradictory sometimes perhaps but that's the challenge is then to resolve those contradictions in a way so that you end up with something that is close to a more, I guess holistic image of this. So this is where it's the art and the science right? Early alchemy some of the earliest text translated from the Arabic It's exactly this as the teacher is teaching the student he says pay attention to what I am using I will name them for you and I will show them too so there's no mistake about what we are using

13:10 and then watch what I do, and if you do what I do, you will get what I get. Right there is the basis of science. Science has a few more things. Alchemy has a few more other things but that attitude of dealing with the material world like that, of reproducibility, consistency... Like if you use this and do this process, this is what happens? That's the science aspect So alchemy uses all these different ways of coming to an understanding of the methods and flow of creation. Okay, so then it's this idea bringing something. So what is that something? Traditional alchemy when we think of it as changing lead into gold is exactly that- lead into gold In the alchemical worldview the metals were one thing and they existed on a spectrum

14:06 of imperfection to perfection. Lead being imperfect, gold being the most perfect. Nothing touches gold well almost nothing touches gold but everything touches all the other metals they corrode they corrupt they turn into salt all these things except gold so this was the idea that lead was gold but just in an unripe form and if you could understand the flow and how creation worked, how nature worked by copying that reproducing it you could bring the imperfect to the perfect. And then the same thing if you're speaking of let's say in a Judeo-Christian Islamic concept of soul and God and deity it's a perfection of the soul or the ascent of the soul to the one and that alchemy is exactly that So here's where I start to make a distinction

15:03 There's a use of spiritual alchemy that gets shaded into Jungian psychology and his use of alchemy, right? And I'm not talking about that. I want to talk about another thing that goes a little bit further back to more of a Greco-Roman approach to it also Islamic because they drew from it That also migrates into the West The thing with a Jungian approach is its absolutely correct because what it's taking as its matter and material is the human psyche So since alchemy says, well the laws of creation how things unfold how things flow it's the same throughout the universe is just a question of scale scope matter material but all those laws hold. So what Jung did is he discovered that but he applied it to the human psyche for healing and this is wonderful But that's not the full picture of Alchemy and it's not the full picture of an inner alchemy

16:06 So let me back up here, and I'd like to unfold that a little bit or unpack that a little bit. How it was seen in sort of a Greco-Roman context where the material work actually activates sort of an inner sensibility right? Of this And the way it was expressed through the ideas of geometry actually In Greco Roman philosophical practices geometry was a purification process It was a process that would purify your inner eye. And it's true, because if you do external geometry after a point you don't need to do it, you can see it with your inner eye and that's what they're talking about They're talking about how do you activate that inner vision? That we all are born with and this is what it says in some of the Neoplatonic texts

17:00 It says, here you have this vision that people seldom use but we all have. And it's a question of developing it. So the way they would do this and you'll see where the parallel is with alchemy in a moment but I want to use this as a very clear-cut example because there's something we all know having gone through high school and you kind of wonder why didn't they teach geometry this way? But what it does is you move that material practice from the outside right compass straightedge all these kinds of things, triangle geometry comes in the measurement of the earth. It comes from surveying this idea of surveying the land in Egypt is where geometry arises from but then it becomes an inner practice as these forms triangles squares circles are abstracted and we can see these in our heads right? And this is the other thing about geometrical objects is that they have this odd

18:00 dual reality being not real but very concrete. They only do certain things or won't do other things, right? If I say equilateral triangle to you the only variation in anybody's mind is going to be size But if you have nothing to compare it to they're pretty much all the same size anyway So it's a very concrete object Right so once you start to do say geometric problems You're able to do it in your head Now, the thing that happens and this is also out of a Greco-Roman tradition known as dream incubation. As you would for medicine someone sick would go into a temple pray to the goddess I got a question sleep the God would appear in the dream with Oracle an answer or cure something so this was used and if we read alchemical texts Greco Roman ones they'll talk about this repeating a process saying these things I went to sleep and in my dream I saw

19:02 And this is the process. So what starts to happen is, and we all know this because we all have had this experience, what you work on during the day shows up in your dreams. Now what happens is... This is the third stage that happened. You've now moved the geometry from the outer world into the inner where you're imagining it in your head. The next thing that starts to happen is these things start to show up in your dreams And that's where it gets interesting because then there is a whole other world that starts to open up. That is not just problem solving the geometric problem, other characters show up and start indicating different things this is the type of process they are talking about This how the practical brings about the inner but they both feed each other

19:53 So alchemy in the Greco-Roman sense was working on these material processes. And if you read the formulas, they're actually doable and you will go through the stages they describe and if you have a philosophical framework of ascent, of perfecting the soul at the same time this stuff moves in You start thinking about it in your head How can I do this? how does that visualize...and then it starts to show up in the dreams And then eventually you wake up in the dream, in the midst of one of these things. This is what they refer to as this process of Ascent from the concrete to the abstract To a channel that opens up to the authentic You may learn things, you may come to understanding Of things that are...that you can bring back out into the concrete world to solve the problem In your personal lives if you're dealing with psychology

20:54 these types of things you'll read about in the sciences where someone has been working on a problem and then finally, in a dream an answer comes to them that they then go to the lab and check. And yes that's the answer it's not like this comes out of nowhere You've been prepping right? You've been feeding the mind! Then we're starting to use that inner sight that we have all been given I think as Plutinus neoplatonic philosopher said And you'll find these, where you find the inner work mentioned is if you read an alchemical text Greco-Roman Arabic Islamic they won't give you the practices there but they will refer to them as an understood thing. For instance

21:42 in the Corpus Hermeticum. This is the writings of Hermes Trismegistus, dealing with the Ascent, The Soul all these other things he is the author of The Emerald Tablet one of the key texts 13 lines of poetry that is a key text of alchemy so within the Corpus Hermeticum you will find the inner practices Right? You'll find the inner practices written. In the alchemical texts, they'll just allude to them with the one line but if you know what that one line is, you know what the rest of talking about so I don't have the book here to pull right out a thing but let me see if I can remember part of what it is in the corpus hermeticum Hermes or the deity The One is teaching taught The Sun and there's this dialogue and he's like What happens

22:31 Do I have things that are lethal to my soul, essentially is what the gist of the question is. How do I get out of this mess I'm in? And Hermes answers to him there are 12 fatalities and The way you deal with this as you calm your body You silence the mind and he goes through these steps And this is really, you know like Buddhist meditation essentially is what he's going through. Right? You know turn the senses inward silence start slow down turn inward listen to that voice that you could hardly hear but you yearned to this type of thing and then in the alchemical text there's a dialogue between Zosimos and his partner Theosabia where they're talking about an alchemical problem

23:22 And she's asking, it's like you know well how do I use this tincture? What happens with this and he goes well follow the 12. And right before then is a quote from Hermes and afterwards so you know what this is embedded in because they're hermitists so this is who they're referencing So this where you'll find it You won't find like an alchemical text that will say we'll sit down do this do that And you won't even find it so explicitly in the Hermetic or the Gnostic texts, although you will find it referred to or described in a way like I just did. So that's basically how this whole material spiritual thing interacts. It's more theoretic in that sense where you use matter as a support for the ascent of the soul

24:10 where the Neoplatonists were doing external rituals, creating statues opening up channels between the statues and the soul animating it with the spirit of God. That's alchemy because really Eamblicus is a neoclitonic philosopher who wrote on the mysteries and it's a polemic explaining the necessity for the use of matter why we do ritual why we do talismans why we make statutes And there's a whole section in there where he talks about calling the soul or the spirit of God into the statue. What is really interesting is that as it goes on towards the end of the work, he says well you know, of course Gods never descend to us we ascend to them and then by another Neoplatonist he says well you know by statue we're talking about the geometry of the inner soul so we are following proportions as we build that statue

25:09 They're talking of the inner statue that's being built, but you will make an outer statue because it's a prop. Interesting kind of like cathedral making too No not kind of exactly That is exactly what the process is It's like iconography if you go and you go to an icon studio with an actual Icon Studio attached to an Orthodox Christian Church you will hear the same speech that using this matter, using this thing to depict these stories. You are activating those stories in yourself because an icon is a mirror that shows the state of the icon writer but it's also a window of what you're trying to achieve in your spiritual life and what you end up making well shows you the difference but this is that idea It's like you're working externally which is why also in terms of the icons

26:03 iconoclastic controversy in the 8th century was are these idols or are these props, channels like prayer or something but more material. Something for our minds to rest on not that we're worshipping them but opening up a channel to the divine Wow and this is alchemy in its inner sense and outer sense And this is what gets missed right because we take...and again I'm not putting this down the Jungian writings on it have become so strong that that becomes the understanding of what alchemy is. And he's absolutely right, that's the thing! It's like why? Oh you're down on... No no I'm not, he's one of my heroes. He's a psychonaut right?! If you've ever taken a look or read The Red Book this is somebody, Victorian and this is the kind of thing you have to remember, Victorian mind

27:00 Right? On the edge. No tradition of this really This guy's about to have, I mean he is having breakdowns and he keeps on pushing Comes back with this fuller vision of things in a different understanding of the psyche And then structures it around you know The stories we tell surrounding alchemy and this is a very useful framework Because Alchemy claims that its describing their creation of the universe So Just to kind of round this out into like a very contemporary easygoing practice, because alchemy deals with any aspect of creation you don't actually have to do laboratory alchemy To do this process. As long as you're doing the creative act or creative process according to alchemy You're engaging in those laws and if you're engaging in those laws they can also be used to turn to the inward and outward unification This kind of thing has an inner outer thing

28:00 So one can read and study certain alchemical texts, and get quite a bit out of them for one's own work. And it is not saying oh well this is that... It is not a 1 to 1 correspondence but you'll start to understand the processes of creation that can enhance and deepen your own practice especially if you are using creation as a practice for inner assent right? If you have a spiritual practice You could use martial arts for this as they do, right? Deep meditation but physical. This is where I feel my work is to kind of bring this aspect out and the practical alchemy the book that we're purportedly talking about Is the first stage of this this is The outside this is the concrete this gets us all on the same page for some basic theory

28:57 the basic outline, where you can find some of the contacts for the inner work. But then a very simple practical fundamental here's what you do to get started start with herbs here's how you convert it could make this tincture it has these benefits and then the second book is more about this material I was just talking about but I you can't get to that one I mean, you can. You could read the second book, Alchemy The Poetry of Matter. It's a standalone and you could be an absolute beginner and read it but these two are part of a larger project that I'm calling alchemy poetry of matter. And it deals with the concrete, the abstract, and the authentic so... Concrete and abstract are done on working on the third now. Well, I really love this stuff!

29:50 I like that part where you mention alchemy, the poetry of matter. It's a good analogy as you said, a poet takes words from a dictionary and arranges them into something more much as an alchemist does with matter. And I just think that's really interesting. And I've heard you say in other interviews that Robert Alan Bartlett who wrote the foreword to the book is a major VIP of Modern Alchemists, and the modern state of alchemy is definitely something I wanted to ask you about. Because I love the history but it is what is often most discussed way more than the modern. And I'm just curious how

30:29 vibrant is it these days? It seems like a lot of people who walk this path do it in isolation, but maybe you can help us get a feel for the state of modern mineral alchemy. Is it growing? Is it shrinking or are the boundaries still being pushed what can you tell us in that regard?" I actually think it's very dynamic. I don't know how extensive...I couldn't give you numbers of how many people are doing what and things like this but just Your point that we tend to be solitary creatures and don't get out much is dead on. Very underground! It does not by any other thing, I think it's just the personalities that are drawn to this and can stay with it if you know what I mean? That said though...I do attend conferences, I talk, I write, I do interviews, I teach And so I hear things my ears to the ground if you know what I mean? And I would say its very dynamic. I would say there was a lot going on

31:26 both practically and in a lot of different areas. The other thing I find very encouraging too is that people are publishing the results of their work either in their own books or online, or through other things. The other thing that's also incredibly encouraging is that over the last 20 years or so, the academy universities have taken it very seriously in terms of this is a topic that is an area of human knowledge and exploration that needs to be taken seriously, with respect, and deeply.

32:03 And so what you're getting is, you're getting PhD programs in certain universities that are digging into these topics and not necessarily as a true believer Harry Potter-esque type but it's like okay what were they saying? What were they doing? What is the context in which this was occurring and where did it lead to and what did they know. An then without going oh poor them we know better now its not this how silly they were but instead going, how did this fit in with how we understood what the universe and the world was? And what's coming out of this work is remarkable. There's one journal in particular, in terms of academic type papers that has been around since the 20s and it is very reputable, it is really good

32:52 because what they'll also do is they'll translate original texts and publish them both within the journal and as special editions. And these are impeccable, and it's called Ambix, a-n-b-i-x. I highly recommend if you're interested in any of this go for it because this where a lot of the new work is being done and then it spills out into our world where we pick it up or that we actually take it a little further So you'll find some interesting work there. But back to sort of like, I don't know what you want to call it street alchemy? Those of us who are just doing it because we're obsessed and you know, we can't do anything else as I say It's very dynamic and in the United States You could probably you know, I mean now with COVID you're not hearing that much you can go online but I'm always suspicious of things online that I don't know what you know What I mean, it's like okay Who are you when what are you really

33:53 But it doesn't take too long. You know, if you're looking for someone honestly Robert Bartlett I would track him down and go if you actually want to do some hands-on in Europe? I would say in Europe this is a It's where its kind of had mostly an unbroken tradition And I would say mostly in the herbal medicinal work and this is coming out Rudolf Steiner, and Alexander von Bernis. Alexander von Bernis is a contemporary German alchemist who died in the 60s or 70s did most of his writing in the 30s and wrote this thing on Alchemy and Medicine And this is just picking up on a lot of their traditions given its own interpretation and use but again it's an innovative view at the time of what the theories about can be were so you'll see people

34:51 taking alchemical theories and practices, and then giving them little twists and spins to kind of get it to work a little better. If you know what I mean? Or work differently or find a discovery for instance here's something that Robert Bartlett did okay there is a process in Alchemy where your purifying antimony I'm sorry, that's another story. But let me go to that one because it's another parallel further back that shows the same thing there is a process and this was done by Arrhenius Philolathes in 17th century Alchemists And it was a way of purifying mercury that needed to be done In order to make the philosopher stone so to do that you have to purify antimony first So the tradition is use iron and then there's a stage where you use silver

35:39 Okay, now silver is expensive. So Arrhenius Philolithes says to himself hmm what if I use copper right and he found you know all these things mythologically contextually canonically where you could say okay yeah you could do that and then he did any use it and it worked just as well so You'll find these innovations in the past What Robert Bartlett did was one of the traditional ways of making its known as the acetate path There are two ways, many ways in working the Philosopher's Stone. One of the ways is the wet way and one of those branches involves acetic acid which makes acetate salts The lead acetate was a thing child of Saturn Was the thing that was often used salt of Saturn that was often used

36:30 then doing a dry distillation on this and certain purifications and separations, you end up with what's known as the philosophical mercury. And you're on your way to making the philosophical stone. What Robert did was he experimented with different metals, did certain tests with them—as you can if you're doing this process—and worked zinc and found that actually working with zinc acetate gave it actually a better yield And the benefit of that is, well lead acetate is one of the most toxic compounds and zinc acetate isn't. So what that does now is opens up a much easier way for experimentation and further research to do since they seem to behave on the same way. This is the kind of thing you're seeing it's people looking at what the texts say but not going oh

37:22 you know, we must slavishly follow this. I mean yeah you may want to slavishly follow it until you realize it doesn't work that way and then you have to kind of try other things to get it to work and then you go oh that's what they need but at the same time it is and it's very dynamic. I don't know if there are any ongoing organizations now like there used to be in the 70s. Fr. Albertus had his Paracelsus Research Society that actually would have hands-on classes out in Utah I don't know of any ongoing ones. If anyone was interested, like say in Germany you should look and this is a continuation of von Bernes's work it's a laboratory called Soluna and it's in Germany and I believe it's still up and operative and it's been around since von Bernes set it up and you can get alchemical products...I think you can even maybe study with them but they would also be some if folks were interested in kind of branching out further And then the other thing really

38:26 Go to the big old imperial cities, sit in the strange cafes and listen. And I tell you, you will hear things and then don't be afraid to ask. I am not kidding you." In Rome, there's a city and then you overhear this one conversation. You start talking to somebody and it's like so you've been working on this for 30 years really right over here? Oh interesting I do this in Prague same thing it's just if you just are out there listening sooner or later you'll hear somebody and they may be peripheral they may not be deep in but don't be afraid to talk get off your phone stop looking at the screens eye-to-eye

39:09 That's where it's happening. Yes, I like it and as you say It can be tough to separate the truth from the fantasy especially online sometimes But yes, I am always curious how far this stuff can be taken And this is something I bring up pretty much anytime we're talking about alchemy I hope the audience doesn't get annoyed by me constantly referencing this but I've seen this clip of an alchemist named Don Nance hold up up a vial of red liquid he called Dragon's Blood, which he says is very pure liquid gold. It's the purest thing he'd ever created—most concentrated I should say—and he says that he gave just a few drops of top water to a woman who then couldn't stop manifesting what was in her mind for several months, which can be dangerous because the mind is tough to control and I'm curious what you

39:59 Think about that and any real connection between purified substances, effects on our consciousness and what the upper limits are to what's actually possible with these really refined substances mainly liquid gold. Quite honestly, I mean, I have no idea. I hear things like this and I go okay here's the thing in alchemy there is a phrase that eventually got kind of established around the 17th century and it's a Latin phrase per ignam right? And which means by fire or through fire And the idea is if you go through this alchemical process and you actually make gold, or you actually... You should be able to put it through the fire. In other words, you should be able to test this every which way left right up down sideways and backwards, and it should always do what it claims to be done This by the way is what they also say before taking on a teacher that you should study them for 12 years their morality how they are how they do Is that who you want to be like? Right

41:01 So this is the same idea. I don't know, someone chose me something on...I don't know who are they? You know what? I'm a filmmaker right? I mean sure You know what I mean? Okay, sure. Why not? The upper limit on it to me is okay fine if this is real concretely in other words this isn't just a psychological psychic state that's being induced through hyper placebo effect which you cannot discount right where someone is anticipating this thing and then all of a sudden in the next few weeks because of this psychic impact, they decide to get all their bullshit that they've been stopping themselves from doing out of their way and just let themselves live. And all of a sudden, all these things that should have been happening that they'd been keeping from happening is now happening right? Many ways you can start to talk about this but if what this has being said is that this compound

42:00 taken, induced this effect in this biological organism then that should be reproducible. Yeah Right? So show me This is where it comes to because this type of thing Isaac Newton was put in charge of the mint right in England Because he knew all the tricks Of how to make something really really look like gold I would say the vast vast majority their prohibitions against alchemy are because of counterfeiting. The burning of the books by Diocletian was because of the fact that they were afraid that this would be used and the currencies would get corrupted, because if you ever read the phrase and it's only a partial that usually gets translated about burn the books on these things but then it goes ahead but preserve the precious ones that deal with

42:55 the philosophy kind of a thing, like real alchemy not this other stuff that's going to show you how to corrupt metals to make them look like gold. So for one there is this constant awareness that there is a lot that can be done and someone not knowing necessarily what they're looking at to an audience who wants to believe will see it. And I'm not again showing me, this is where it comes down too You're going to make a claim? To me, you have to demonstrate it. If not then I can say anything." Yeah that's absolutely true! And then what does that do? I don't know... It's entertaining but uh you know i ain't got time for that shit. You know yeah I only got a few more years on this planet and you know I've got shit to do. There is enough real shit that is also entertaining and uh exactly movies line yeah called movies yes

43:51 there are things within this material practice that need investigation, that need looking into. Here's like one example of this and what I mean by something that is reported in the literature meaning 17th century that you've never heard of since right? And so by Robert Boyle Sir Robert Boyle father of modern chemistry you know Boyles law dealing with gases He was an alchemist, actually. His teacher was Arrhenius Philolathes except he didn't know it. He was Arrhenius Philolathes his real name is George Starkey and he worked as Robert Boyle's lab assistant And it was Starkey who taught Boyle all of his Alchemy in Chemistry and Robert Boyle was a true believer

44:37 He believed that if he could work towards the philosopher's stone, the invisible adepts would understand and would come to teach him. And which is actually what happened George Starkey shows up in his lab and starts teaching him his alchemy So this is Robert Boyle right? He's no nonsense. He wants to make the philosophers stone So one of the processes in the stages of this is that as I mentioned earlier, is this purification of mercury? That happens through This amalgamation with antimony that has been highly purified before him and it's that process that actually enables this Animation of mercury to occur as the alchemist would say so he does this process and he ends up with this mercury

45:24 And mercury will dissolve metals. It's how we get the almogens that the dentists used to stuff in our teeth, and so it's not unusual that mercury will dissolve gold but what happens with this mercury is when Robert Boyle put the mercury in his hand and he puts the gold into it to see what happens and it dissolves, it exudes a great heat and he calls this the exolescence of mercury or the exolescence of gold, and he writes about it in his collected works. He's repeated it, he's done it again and again, and every time... Now there is no known exothermic reaction between metallic mercury and metallic gold so what's going on here?

46:07 Now, that's something in my mind I should be investigating. And I believe this is part of the process that's going on in some of the universities reexamining the alchemical works of Newton and the alchemical works of Boyle but the idea you're gonna make a material that will change lead by melting lead adding this powder to it that will instantaneously change that lead into gold and its gold as we define gold I don't think so. Again, you're going to have to show me it's just like okay look at how we understand what gold is right protons neutrons electrons there's a whole deficiency or surplus of things and we all know what happens with that right great releases of energy and or not but that doesn't happen And i'm not saying...you know? I'm just saying show me

47:05 Right, you're open to it but it needs to be... Oh yeah! Yeah. Why am I? Let me put it this way the gold thing the sparkly bits things like that isn't the main reason why what interested me in alchemy It wasn't like oh..it was more understanding wanting to get to What is this middle space that we occupy between the two infinities right The infinity of the small and the infinity of the large Yes and that actually gets to the heart of another question I had for you but in the book you write, The quest to turn lead into gold had many motivations. For some it was a quest for wealth but for others it was a demonstration of profound insights into nature and I am interested in that later part

47:48 What has this pursuit taught you about nature and the structure of this mysterious reality we find ourselves in? You say in the book, nature is your true book. Study it well and I like that also. Yeah that's a old traditional alchemical statement. I'm just kind of paraphrasing my own words but yes that's exactly it In other words observe and think Observe and consider what is really in front of me what is really going on I mean this comes right down to just contemporary, you can get into this with cognitive psychology and perception studies. Do you think you see the world as it really is? No! Yeah that's impossible right?! Just a physiology of the human eye itself narrows the electromagnetic spectrum down to nanometers right!? And how wide is the electromagnetic spectrum ? Right so only seeing a slice... So this is what I'm saying already we're filtered already we're limited but here we are

48:45 In between, this is what alchemy is. It's an ascent through descent and you'll find this concept in most mystical traditions Dante right? He descends into hell before he ascends into the heavens And this is what alchemy does by studying matter By understanding that creation You are actually descending with your mind you're penetrating into the depths of a matter and you're wanting to understand how this creation unfolds And then if you do, you study the other side cosmology which actually does get down into the tiny as well is the large. You realize that all of this existence is just a very thin foam that we put together in our mind and so you have eternities on both sides at this phone That's what fascinated me This is where I was as a kid This is what I was kind of feeling like there's something more...I used to ask where I went at night

49:43 Right? I can remember it's like, you know five six years old asking my mom like where do i go at night and she said what you go to sleep. And so no no no no no! No, I know I go to sleep but where do I go and So what I would try to do then stay up that night to see where I went But I started lucid dreaming That was one of the techniques of lucid dreaming and I'll tell you it tripped me out because I realized as I started going deeper and deeper into this there is no why. You know what I mean? It's reconstructed every morning." And it was like, whoa man that's like spooky shit! Yeah i like that...I like that and another thing that I found interesting is that more of this book is about alchemical medicine than I might have thought at first an example would be a quote from Antoine Joseph

50:32 Pernity yeah where he says that alchemy is a science and art of making a fermentive powder which transmutes the imperfect metals into gold and which is a useful remedy for all the natural illnesses of man animal and plants well that's very interesting in a big bold claim oh yeah And I am of the opinion that big pharma and Rockefeller medicine have done a lot to suppress natural cures or biology in this sort of stuff by capturing the schools and teaching aspiring minds that all of that was superstition and bullshit. But what can be said about alchemy, spagyrics and their effectiveness as medicinal practice overall? Well, I would say that what Spagyrics does...and this is

51:19 the alchemy of plants, let's say. And this is where it's usually encouraged for most people who want to start the practice of alchemy to start not to work with minerals not to work with metals mostly because those tend towards the poisonous and toxic side Not to say there aren't any toxic and poisonous plants either but there are more friendly things you can work with like rosemary lavender etc etc You would work with those herbs as an herbalist would prescribe an herb for medicinal purpose. It has that same use or it has one of those same uses. What Herbal Alchemy does, what Spagyrix does that regular herbal tinctures don't do is it uses all three components the plant of the object so in alchemy there are three principles that make up anything mercury sulfur and salt

52:13 Okay, so in an herb salt would be the body. So the mineral salts of the plant The sulfur would be the essential oil of the plant and then the mercury would be the spirit Of the plan in other words what comes out of it as it decomposes? So it actually ferments and creates alcohols spirit And so the idea then is by separating out these three things and purifying them you potentize The effect or the impact of the herbs right? And the alchemical idea is that well you preserved all three aspects of that being and all three aspects are important, right not just the two. But there's actual some chemistry there at the same time because it's the mineral salts that will form...the mineral salts tend to make essential oils and other type of organic chemicals more absorbable by the body

53:12 So, there's that aspect of it as well. So that you are actually creating a more potent version of that plant as opposed to just either making a tea or using an alcoholic pink gin and that's pretty much it for the medicine I mean It's not like there are miracle things in there It's just like how you would use this as an herbal remedy And how you would use it in balance with things so without you need to have obviously an experienced herbal practitioner and someone that can work with it in a knowing way, how it balances out on how they are. But at the same time I would say this idea of herbal medicine has always been around will always be around and as big as Big Pharma is It's hard to avoid a lot of the herbal stuff even if you wanted too. So I would say its as big If you know what I mean? On a street level because I can't think of too many people

54:12 that, you know I think a lot of folks will gravitate more towards taking a peppermint tea for an upset stomach or something rather than a hardcore drug necessarily. I mean, I don't really know It's just my impression like living in New York that a lot of folks it's like yes You know you will use prescription medicine because it can be really potent and it does work the stuff I take from migraine now is amazing You know what? Whereas like a lot of the herbal stuff I was taking for it just wasn't doing it. So there were those things, you know? Life is a mixed bag. Everything in balance... It's balance! Is really what it comes down to, you know? Right on

54:55 And along the lines of medicine, probably my favorite chapter in the book is the Aurum Portabile. Oh yes! Aurum Potabile, The Drinkable Gold. Yeah, drinkable liquid gold with strong healing properties... Have you ever seen this in real life or do you know people who say they have? I mean we can get colloidal silver but- Oh yeah it's not a hard- there are recipes and processes for it Here's the controversy When you read alchemy, they talk about extracting the essence of gold and they give the process for this. Now if you follow that process exactly what you end up with is a very refined colloidal gold however their language is such that they deny it Their language is such there's no residue of metal in them It's only just the color So maybe they did do something that only took the color but I doubt it

55:54 Here's the thing with Orumputabulae. If you, and I've done this when I was in undergraduate school studying chemistry in the library there was a microfilm collection that had like books from since forever like 1500s, a lot of them dealing with medicine science and alchemy so I would go through them In around the 17th century Orumputabulae was the supermedicine that everybody had to have There are more things written on it. There are more recipes on this than you can imagine. A lot of the books were actually nothing more than like infomercials

56:33 you would actually start and read this as I've done two of them, and then realize what a friggin waste of time. Because they keep promising well here's the ideas here is the theories if you wait we will get to this You know? We'll show how it can be made Well...you know what come to the pharmacy at the sign of the duck And we will provide with the best oral potaboli in all London." It was just this huge thing that everybody was after making and promising So what the idea is, is that gold representing the heart and harmonizing with the heart as the heart is the center of the body. The sun is the center of the solar system. It's another different idea because it's usually Earth is a center of the solar system but in alchemical medicine, it's interesting that the sun is considered the center and that's also gold so the idea is is that well by bringing gold in or the energies of gold into the body you strengthen the heart and you strengthen these things

57:36 So the earliest Orin Potabilis are very simple, very very very simple affairs and they kind of evolve out of early Greek medicine and into Arabic medicine where there was if you wanted to You could make what they called What is it? Spirit or iron water Let's just call it that. Iron water And what you would do Is you heat up iron to red hot and you extinguish in water We'd do that again and again And what would happen is that the water would absorb the qualities of iron and you would give it to a patient to drink, and they would absorb the qualities of iron. And that's actually true because what you are creating are certain salts of iron, so you're boosting the person's iron in their blood which is also probably what they needed. But that process, that idea of taking something hot and putting into a medium is something that gets carried over

58:33 So you'll find this being done in Greco-Roman medicine, and then in alchemy. You find it one of the first writings dealing with the discovery of alcohol 1300s by John of Rupesisa He didn't invented he just writes about it And he talks about this major magnificent thing of putting the Sun into the heavens like God did and because the pure alcohol is like the quintessence. He has this whole argument as to why alcohol is the quintessence, and that by extinguishing gold in here you are putting the sun into it." And this was a very early Oro Potabile. And he says if your poor what you can do is ask a rich man to borrow a gold coin and try to find good white wine and extinguish it in that if you can't make proper quintessence. Then it goes from there

59:28 this idea of putting gold into a medium. And there are recipes all over the place, Manfred Junius made one that was really nice man for junious is another alchemist around the same time period as maybe a little younger than Prato Albertus Manfred died in 2006 and his 70s or so he was German but Ayurvedic doctor and wrote plant alchemy. Actually he has a his paperback is I think it's called Spagyric Alchemy at this point, I'm not sure what the new title is But his is a major work on plants His oral potabulae works with concepts out of ayurvedic alchemy Rasa Sastra Except that its early European

1:00:18 alchemy, but follows the same patterns. Meaning for example what Rasa Sasha does is it takes a metal heats it but will extinguish in an organic matter such as milk other things and then forms bhasmas, it forms salt that's very anyhow thats what that does there are recipes out of the 17th century by an alchemist German alchemists And he uses cinnamon and gold. And cinnamon is, if you're familiar with affinities and things like that, cinnamon and gold are ruled by the sun. So Manfred made this really beautiful Oran Potabili following this recipe

1:00:57 So that's really what it is. It's trying to find ways of getting gold into a solution that can be absorbed by the body, right? And then not just by the physical body but your soul so-to-speak as well. Right! Very very interesting I like that breakdown Man, well this has been a lot of fun. And as we're winding down here talk to us about some of your purchasable works for people who are interested the books the zines the website what are you working on next? What should people know? Oh sure! Well if you're interested in the practical...the book we've just mostly been talking about Practical Alchemy Weiss's publication

1:01:38 I don't have copies of it yet to sell through my website, but I would say order it through your bookstore. Right? I'm a big fan this was they played very important roles in my mystical upbringing are physical bookstores these are places we congregate and get together so if you can support them and order it through your local bookstore that said I would go directly to the publisher Red Wheel Weiser And if you just go Practical Alchemy, the book will show up and you'll see Red Wheel Weiser. As you notice I'm not encouraging the Amazon but if you must, you must because we all live where we live and do what we must do So that's The Practical Alchemy All of my other work is available through my website For those listening in Europe Treadwells Bookstore in London sells my work The Alchemy Poetry Of Matter In The Zines If you're in Canada

1:02:36 Anathema Publishers actually distributes my work in Canada, the zines, the Poetry of Matter and these things. So the book Practical Alchemy was say part one. Alchemy Poetry of Matter is actually the next book there and that's available through my website all my zines are available through the website And that website is kepripress.com and that's K-H-E-P-R-I Press, P-R-E-S-S all one word, kepprepress.com and at the bottom of the homepage is a sign up thing for my mailing list because I give talks...I will be giving a talk on Splendor Solis one of the most magnificent alchemical manuscripts. I'm giving a four part course on that through a place called Morbid Anatomy Library so if you go to them or sign up by my mailing list i will be sending out

1:03:35 announcements for that course and other things that I'm doing. The next work, I have a book I just finished and supposed to be getting that to the publisher but due to COVID things have been delayed we're kind of working out some details on it but one way or another that will be out in a year And then I am working on this other larger piece dealing with music That will be musical And that's in a very early stage of building. This is where the zine on alchemy and music started, this is part of like the foundational research routes I'm building and then from there I'm taking off and trying to create something So if anybody's interested take a look at Alchemy & Music, the zine, and you'll see what I'm up to. I lay out very specific ideas in there in terms of the impact on the body and how this can be considered

1:04:26 and then how that might be used for a music of ascent. So, that's actually what I'm working on next. Nice! And then the other one is with a friend of mine who you may want to interview at some point once this is done. Okay... It's a graphic memoir of the early days of magic in New York City in the 1970s as the OTO and other things were getting off the ground and he was kind of in the middle of it Anyhow, it's been kind of fun. But that's another story for another time. Does it have a title yet? Right now we have a working title is just called 1978 because that's the year of the event I hope I'm not saying too much but It started out as just kinda like this funny little thing he was doing that We thought would be like maybe a 30 page zine

1:05:15 But as I kept asking him questions about, so what were they doing? It just kept opening up and it's like well you know that's got to be a scene. And then right now we're like 150 pages 200 pages or something but we'll see where it goes yeah I love it keep me posted on that yeah yeah oh I definitely will I definitely will this has just been it's just been a hoot that's all I have to say Seems like you got so many things going on. A Brian of many trades? Yes, yes well it all relates to this one focus of what the alchemical process is all about that's the heart of it and I know you're an East Coast guy but I'm just curious any notable West Coast esoteric book stores we should help keep alive oh yeah so what I really know...I don't know anything so much in LA or San Francisco that

1:06:08 Mort Laiken Sons. He also has a website, he also publishes which is even more important like really key works and really beautiful editions and also very affordable editions And that's known as Ouroboros Publishing or Ouroboros books nuts spelled as you would spell it I guess don't make me spell right oh you b-o-r-o Yeah, Ouroboros books look that up You'll find it You should also interview him. No, really William Kiesel he is phenomenal a lot of his work is on Kabbalistic sigil magic magical books and grimoires as his specialty He's really knowledgeable practitioner articulate and you know

1:06:57 a good friend as if you can't tell. But even if I hated the motherfucker, I'd still say the same thing." Ah! I love it. No he's really good. He's really good. I think your audience would dig him. Yes well just like one book opens the next every interview I do ends up with three or four more guests I should follow-up on so yeah I got work to do but this has been a true pleasure man. I'm really impressed with the depth of your knowledge and I appreciate these sharing of all this insight that you've gathered over the years. You are the man and do take care out there! Thanks so much, I have had a lot of fun. So hope to catch you in the crossroads! Amazing stuff really enjoyed this one loved reading the book A nice quick alchemical overview with some detailed practical first steps for those who want to dip their toes in

1:07:52 For me, practical alchemy is kind of like trying to learn guitar now at 36. It's not really going to work out I have a lot of respect for people who have developed that skill but i think the time has passed for me to be able to start down such a complex path requiring so much dedication because a lot more time and focus is needed than i probably have at this point Which is why it's so important to make sure kids develop skills between 5 and 15. Because after 15, they're getting into high school drama, getting ready to drive... But between five and fifteen no kid has anything to do but develop a talent! Art? Music? Chef Skills? Alchemy I guess?! They're just sitting around the house with all the time in the world don't let them waste it all on some stupid iPad

1:08:49 Sorry, but yes alchemy is a never-ending well of interesting content and what I like most about it these days is probably the philosophy and worldview of the Alchemists because they're certainly closer to the real deal than the Materialists. I also love the general idea of watching nature and letting it guide your processes your technology all that kind of stuff And I don't know if matter is truly as pliable as they insinuate in some of the old texts, but we really wouldn't know because we just don't try anymore. I also like the idea of an underground alchemical revival... maybe we're contributing to that now? But big thanks to Brian he really knows a lot about this stuff it takes years of dedication and he obviously has a passion for it too

1:09:44 And higher side news, we did it! After 10 long years we had a local meetup and it went really well. There were some strange and suboptimal aspects to it but overall it was great seems more like a subject for me to get into more on the next joint session but my special lady and I both sort of agreed that if we had ten people we'd consider it a success If we had 20 people we'd be pretty impressed And when everyone cycled through and it was all said and done, we probably had over 40 people. I've got 33 names and emails on my local group signup... what a number right? And i'm sure at least 7 people or so didn't put their info down.. So yeah, 40! It's just a sign of the times- People are hungry to meet other like minded people. If this audience is largely like myself, We're hungry for topics like todays show

1:10:44 It's hard not to obsess over the power grab and society crumbling down around us, but when we push through to the dominant of wider inclusion I think these are the kinds of topics that will get us there. Energy flows where attention goes they say and we should focus more of our mental attention on the stage after this one on the world we want to build and maybe we can manifest it a bit faster I hope so because it's really the only way i know how to navigate this. Alternate back and forth when there's new news rather than just obsessed episode after episode It's nice to get away from the narrative for a little bit, I don't want to be so sad all the time you know? So we mix it up! And of course if you enjoyed the first hour we got a whole second hour for those who become plus members but today we talked about making a homunculus

1:11:41 Which I will say, when a person has written about this i almost always ask but I've never heard it broken down the way Brian did. Where it makes a lot of sense to me now why they thought they could do this at the time. Semen and menstrual blood? Not my favorite flavors but an ambitious soup of creation so they thought We also talked about the story of the Mandrake root, the Hermonculi recipes and strange correlations to modern cloning principles. The Golem a man of clay brought to life by power of word. Brian's translations of the Emerald Tablet Cosmology and flow energy from Saturn to Earth Alchemy sound & music Power in Esoteric Toolbox

1:12:29 and the provocative, provocative idea of powerful people hiring magical practitioners and alchemists because they want the benefits without doing the work themselves. I for one am leaving today very entertained and informed...and i'm sure i'm not alone! If you like this show toss me the eight dollars for a membership. You don't have to stay signed up forever but if we can tip eight dollars for a meal i don't think it's too much to ask for the brain food that is thc and you get twice as much for your trouble but you know the deal so I guess that's it. Much love to all you guys keep your heads up be The Change and all that make love not conflict, and uh...we will overcome!

1:13:16 Dig into Brian's work if you want more, but I've done my part. Your move, Hermonculi makers, Gold Bar fakers and keepers of the true alchemical secrets... your fucking move! This is important hear what i said I'm trying to tell you It's not paranoia not in my head it's just the hard truth Knocked on your door while I still can To ask you a quiz I know your head is still in the sand Don't be sheep to your slaughter for the rest of your life Oppressed, oppressed But you're getting woke You say you don't want to be stressed until The day you die Tough luck my friend Did ya get the memo? Can't you see that we're so screwed? Don't you know we're arc? Can't you just admit We're screwed! I'm gonna tell you anyway It's a scary night

1:14:24 You sit and wish but we don't have a choice It seems we're stuck here But you can find no sis, drown out the noise Now use that alternate end up your magic game And listen to THC you know Go with the entities If you ever see

1:15:09 Don't be sheep to your slaughter for the rest of your life Oppressed, oppressed but you're getting woke You say you don't want to be stressed until the day you die Tough luck my friend Did ya get the memo? Can't you see that we're so screwed? Don't you know we are kung fu? Can't you just admit we're screwed I'm gonna tell you this anyway It's a sub world, I'm scary everyday Be okay

1:15:46 Can't you see the risk? Yeah, yeah Don't be sheep to your slaughter for the rest of your life Oppressed, oppressed but you're getting woke You say you don't want to be stressed until the day you die Tough luck my friend Did you get the memo?

1:16:29 Can't you see that we're so screwed? Don't you know where our kung fu? Can't you just admit, we're screwed I'm gonna tell ya this anyway It's a scary dark world Something scarier everyday, okay? Can't you see that we're scared?