Wal Thornhill | The Electric Universe, The SAFIRE Project, & Plasma

00:00 Embrace yourself, because you're about to dive into another free first hour episode of the Higher Side Chats. And we just want to let you know that whether your looking for a companion through your paranoid insomnia, entertaining yourself through one of life's mundane activities or trying to ward off the internal screams from all those sad smothered souls around the office THC is here and you should know that every episode of the higher side chats has an entire second hour for PLUS members Sign up at thehiresitechats.com and you'll get years of plus show archives, lifetime forum access a special invite to Greg Carlwood's monthly joint sessions MP3s of THC music bonus episodes tour videos and 10% off t-shirts grinders And whatever else ends up in The HireSite store It's $8 a month that you won't miss so become a Plus member and treat yourself in these troubled times always action packed and commercial free

00:51 Which means you'll unfortunately never hear my voice again. In the 1930s, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed the nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the Fireside Chats His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times. Apart from 1930 and I deal with a different kind of fire For a new era of worldly frustration we offer a fresh conversation... I'm Greg Carlwood

01:27 These are the Higher Side Chats. Alright, higher side chatters from sunny San Diego I'm Greg Carlwood and i don't know if ignorance arrogance or full-blown intentional misdirection is to blame but it's becoming more obvious that most areas of science are completely off the mark in the realm of health It seems that the bio terrain model and holistic approach to wellness are having results that far exceed the best offerings of Rockefeller medicine without the troubling side effects When it comes to fuel and energy, it's pretty clear that the system has a very rigid line drawn in the sand despite many stories of promising results from those brave enough to cross it. We have a long history of strange things seen flying or hovering in the sky that our best experts tell us cannot exist... ...and fields like ether physics and alchemy were highly regarded by some of the most well-respected intellectuals in history before we were told to just ignore that work

02:20 Knowing these things, is it any surprise that perhaps the realms of astrophysics and cosmology are also committed to a fatally flawed model too? Really how much money has been spent on expensive salaries and so-called academic institutions just to tell us their best guess about the mystery of the universe is that everything exploded for no reason at a random date in the distant past. They say it's the Big Bang Theory, but question it and you'll quickly find yourself outside of academic circles that won't adapt or adjust their strict models even in the slightest. If you ask me, rather than being married to complex mathematical equations that tell us our observations are wrong... maybe these brightest minds should start trusting our observations. Well wouldn't you know it? That is one of the guiding principles adhered to by the advocates of plasma cosmology and the Electric Universe model like today's returning guest Wal Thornhill

03:13 We've talked about the Electric Universe many times before, but its contention is that electricity rather than gravity is the primary operator in the cosmos and that everything in the universe is connected through this electricity. The more you get into it, the more simplified and elegant it seems with implications that are probably a lot more drastic than one would expect. And probably the most well-known voice for the Electric Universe model is The Thunderbolts Project of which Wal Thornhill is the cofounding vice president as well as chief science advisor Wall got his degree in physics from Melbourne University, but it was inspiration from Immanuel Velikovsky's book Worlds In Collision that pushed him to see past the conventional paradigm in a way many of his colleagues could not. Together with David Talbot they formed The Thunderbolts Project and wrote two books entitled The Electric Universe and Thunderbolts Of The Gods that are both still highly respected over a decade later

04:05 After five years it's certainly great to talk to him again so let's get into it. The great Electric Universe guru, conventional cosmology critic and passionate advocate for a new paradigm Walt Thornhill welcome back! Thanks very much Greg Yes I am really looking forward to this You know i do a lot of interviews and you do as well and they have to all bleed together but when we spoke maybe five years ago it was more than introduction the electric universe model now i think our audience is going to be a lot more comfortable with the basics which usually means we can dive deeper into details.

04:41 Five years is a long time. I find, a lot more of my guests are working from the Electric Universe model more so than ever. What would be your assessment of how the Thunderbolts Project and plasma cosmology in the Electric Universe have grown in that five-year timespan? Well as you say quite a lot has happened. In particular we had some very good meetings particularly 2017 and then Unfortunately, my dear friend and colleague David Talbot suffered a medical problem which meant that it sort of threw the spanner in the works for the following years. But there's a strong group in Britain following our work and have been for many years. In fact I was on the committee of the Society for Interdisciplinary Studies there for many years actually in the 1980s when I was posted over there by the government

05:39 They organized two meetings in 2018-2019 and the big feature of 2019 was the completion of the SAFIRE project. Now, for those who don't know about that, the SAFIRE project was proposed initially by a Canadian engineer Monty Montgomery Childs I should say best known as Monty, and an outstanding professional engineer he turned out to be. And eventually we managed to have financial backers do the multi-million dollar experiment. This experiment was based on Ralph Juergens' Electric Sun model with modifications by Professor Don Scott and myself

06:36 which, as he explained after the event worked first go in all of the tests we ran and then in 2019 confirmed that we had actually produced an electric star in a bottle. We reproduced the conditions witnessed in the plasma surrounding the Sun and that has enormous implications of course! And at present the experiment itself has been since the SAFIRE project is wound up has been transferred to a company, Orion Energy. A-U-R-E-O-N if you have a look on the web and you will see the results of that and not only did we find that we could produce power like the Sun but also remediate nuclear waste which is a huge problem for the world right now with the radioactive nuclear plants that we have

07:37 The SAFIRE project really proved my contention that nature never does things the hard way. And this idea that you have to have incredible temperatures and pressures in the center of an object like a star, to force nuclei of atoms to come together and fuse is completely mistaken. When you think about it, is obvious because Of course it's based more or less on the success of hydrogen bombs. But when you look at the night sky, as Montgomery Child said and I thought this was a very good engineering principle, when you look at the night sky you don't see stars exploding or changing color or suddenly brightening and then fading. He said whatever is going on in those stars is very well regulated. And so the SAPIRE experiment was

08:38 code-named from Stellar Atmospheric Function in Regulation Experiment. It's a bit of a clumsy sentence but it tells you that we were looking at the regulatory effect of the photosphere of a star and this was a contribution of Don Scott who pointed out that the bright photosphere of a star actually behaves like a PNP transistor, so it resists changes in output when there is a change in the input. It's like a regulated power supply which are in common use and this of course explains why the Sun is a variable star in X-rays but it's very steady in its radiant output, the light and heat that it puts out

09:26 And of course this is critical if you're going to try and have life on planets around stars, you don't want the outward bearing wildly so that you've got an ice age one minute and then you're being roasted and burnt the next. And so all the evidence pointed to the fact that Juergen's original model was correct because it satisfied all of the observations we could see when you look at a star closely there are many many puzzles about what's going on One of the ones which the conventional scientists have problems with is, why is the hottest part of the Sun outside the Sun? Now if you're just trying to shed energy from inside then the inside should be the hottest and the outside should be the coolest. It's pretty damned obvious everyone knows that! You know, the further you move away from a fire or heater, the colder you get

10:20 But this is the reverse with the Sun and of course it makes perfect sense if part of the energy is coming from outside. There are many other issues about that but basically what we've done, it should be front page news around the world if anyone was paying attention but of course what we are doing is impossible according to particle physics. But of course particle physics We keep seeing headlines in science magazines and journals that quantum theory is in strife because they can't explain weird things that go on, and of course they postulate the many universes idea and all sorts of intellectual nonsense to try and patch up a story which is failing.

11:10 Well said and I'm glad you brought up the Sapphire project because it was one of the primary things. I wanted to ask you about hmm I've read through a lot of the material and results, but a lot of what I read was a bit over my head I am curious though when you got this star in a jar working some of the questions I would have are How long did it burn for how? How stable was it? I know you said the project wrapped up, but could it keep on sustaining itself in perpetuity if that was the goal?" These sorts of things. Well these are all very good questions and of course the main thing to test was whether we could regulate the experiment. We could set the knobs to a certain position and we would get exactly the same results each time. And we showed that early on that we can do that

12:03 My contribution was in the particle physics side of things and what actually creates the energy that we see from a bright star. And it is nuclear energy but it's the kind that particle physicists don't like, that's the low-energy nuclear reactions. Anyway, that was proven in 2019 and announced at Bath University in England at our meeting there And that was done just a few weeks after we had confirmation from an independent laboratory, that we had created a whole range of elements which weren't in the chamber before. We do the before and after tests. And also we have spectroscopes looking at what's going on in this bright plasma you know they are shining star if you like. When we turned the power up to a certain level all of a sudden all these new spectroscopic lines appeared

13:02 which was indicative of the fact that we were actually converting one element into another. And that's where the bulk of the energy from the Sun comes from, all stars and I mean this makes perfect sense all stars create the heavy elements required for life and everything we see. It is not this crazy idea a supernova which according to standard theory is only star event energetic enough to create the heavy elements. It's just not so, and then of course the supernova explodes and blows all into deep space which is not where you want it! You wanted where the stars are and where life is. Right? All right... And that is crazy! Transmutation right under our nose huh?! Transmutation run under our noses. The old alchemists were onto something we're only just beginning to discover

13:55 Wow that is amazing and you mentioned this energy company i was gonna ask about that it seems like once you've established that this is kind of how stars are created or birthed your then it seems like there would be a lot of energy implications their team's like a lot of power now, oh yes yes under the sun radioactive because. Nature, when it produces new elements does so in a way which is unknown to quantum theory because quantum theory is not actually physics. It's a mathematical description of what happens without any real understanding of what's going on and this is one of the characteristics of modern science unfortunately that the basics are missing and its all down to what happened at the beginning of the 20th century

14:48 And it sort of harks back to what you've been talking about, the crisis in science. Well we're having a crisis which we go through repeatedly in our societies and that's obvious." It is! One of my favorite ways to try to break through people who might have a hard time with the idea that entire fields like conventional cosmology or physics could be wrong is to point out the history and i know that you're big on this too because i've heard you say in the nineteenth century the brightest minds were all about holistic models and had a real hunch about the important role of electricity but obviously something changed right what was that will. The beginning of the twentieth century and the outbreak of insanity in the two world wars

15:45 the kind of experimental independent scientists that govern progress in the 19th century disappeared. And what we had was whole teams of budding scientists were recruited to shut up and calculate, you know? In other words don't worry about the physics as long as the mathematics allows us to build these weapons of war and other things just go ahead and do it Then the second world war more money was funneled from government into research and we set up institutions. I'm effectively what were doing, where is industrializing science but industry can work with whatever they discover works in a laboratory without necessarily understanding it and in particular not understanding that the unintended consequences of whatever it is there developing

16:40 And this has had all sorts of ill effects for humanity in the 20th century and it's got worse in the 21st century. And, of course after the Second World War and introduction of computers, the divorce of science from the experimental scientists... A lot of the experimental scientists from 19th centuries were excellent engineers too! They built exquisite instruments and so on to measure things Of course technology has improved the instrumentation but the science behind it is just lacking. So we spend millions and billions of dollars on gigantic experiments which can't be repeated by anyone else because no one else can afford to do it, therefore the things that come out of it generally what's expected? Because you've spent so much money, you've got to have a result

17:40 And so, there's kind of self-fulfilling. So we've got gravity wave telescopes and gravity wave measurements and yet no one in physics understands gravity. We've got equations you know Newton had the sense to say that he didn't understand gravity but here is an equation that works in the solar system. The fact it didn't work once they applied it to galaxies should have been a signal that there was more to learn But instead of that, they invented dark matter and all this dark stuff which they're spending now millions and billions of dollars trying to find this dark matter that's needed to save their gravitational theories. Instead of considering the fact that first you need to understand gravity and then... then you can talk about getting money for these kinds of experiments. So

18:37 Fortunately, I was inoculated against all of this stuff very early in my schooling and kept asking awkward questions which meant that I was not fit for academia. They don't like people who ask awkward questions but all the same the thing that I found most difficult in all this over the decades that I've been doing it is to drop old certainties things that you're being taught that everyone else believes and that you find problems with, and then finally have to make the decision. Okay I just have to give up on this or I have to follow where the evidence is leading me? And I've got better at that over the years to the point now where I believe my model of gravity satisfies all the tests that I can think off and it explains all sorts of things which are mysteries in present

19:36 Yes that's one of my favorite things about your work is just all the little details that can be explained and sometimes are like things you never thought of before couldn't work out in the night while it's actually quite simple and pretty elegant yeah another thing i've heard you say that i liked was that. classical physics wants to simplify stuff because when it's made overly complex, that is what pretty much establishes a scientific priesthood over the field. And that sounds like a pretty familiar paradigm today! Yes, that's right. It set up... it was Halton Arp who was leading astronomer said that science today has the hallmarks of religion and none of its benefits. Absolutely

20:25 So on your linkedin profile you say why have these discoveries been ignored the answer may be found in the inertia of prior beliefs and the failure of our educational institutions that certainly seems like part of it maybe i give academia too much credit but i find hard to believe that its all ego and stubbornness and left brain thinking, it seems like there is some intentional misdirection there. i mean don't step out of this conventional box or your career is ruined as you know are these people really just that close minded or did our conventional sciences get where they are because there's something, they dont want us to stumble upon weather it energy implications or the story of our past i get the vibe their some kind of secret that they dont want to get mainstream maybe several am i being paranoid what do you think. I don't think its intentional

21:22 Our education system actually trains students to be blind to alternatives. This was shown by that fellow in England, Dr Ian McGilchrist who has the Celtic spelling IAIN for Ian but he's a bit of a celebrity in a way because he did a meta-analysis all the studies on how the brain functions and came to the conclusion that the two hemispheres are there You know, the brain is divided for a reason. He said nature never does anything for no reason and he said that two halves of the brain are connected by the corpus callosum as it's called and it appears that the corpus callosum operates to suppress one or the other hemisphere. One hemisphere dominates in certain tasks and the other hemisphere dominates another. And he pointed out that the left hemisphere in animals and in humans, it appears

22:25 is focused on survival, so the things you need to do to survive like where to find food and how to eat it. Just basic things like that. The right hemisphere is the hemisphere which has a more global perspective and is on the lookout for danger. You may be busily eating lunch but you don't want to be someone else's lunch. That was the way he put it But he points out that our education systems feed the left hemisphere, which is the automatic one. Whereas it's the right hemisphere that has a more global view. So this training as you know is to produce people who are specialized in different fields and this idea of specialism is the thing that fails us when it comes to doing science

23:18 because the scientists of old were trained classically. They knew ancient history, they knew languages, they knew all sorts of stuff because that was the way they were trained and so when they were dealing with a physics question like Newton he was also considering what are the implications for biblical narrative and stuff like that? And this is where Velikovsky came from because he was looking at the narratives of the creation stories from around the world it didn't matter whether primitive creation stories or those in the various major religions. And he said there were characteristic features in them which you can see are identical and this is what Dave Talbot used as the basis of his research, and the surprising thing is that when you've accepted that as your working premise, you are able to understand that the planets had characteristics which were associated with them

24:17 that were identical, didn't matter what creation story whether it was from islanders in the South Pacific or natives in North or South America or Africa. They all had the same characteristics and Mars was always the hero he was red, he had a sword then you have Venus who was always female, the goddess. Long flowing hair and also was the archetype of the Medusa and the Gorgon you know this head of snakes. What was it about these planets then that was frightening the daylights out of our forgotten ancestors? And he was able to identify the fact that Venus was THE archetypal comet! It must have been most spectacular thing imaginable in the sky

25:08 if you can imagine a comet with the head the size of a planet. And it was seen in relative close up and it was a danger at various times in past history, which of course flew in the face of the belief in the Newtonian clockwork solar system. And this path of Venus, the state that Venus was in I've heard you say this is what you think it's responsible for the Ouroboros symbolism? Yes that's right! The birth of Venus was witnessed it seems by the ancients and they described it and it makes sense once you understand the electrical nature of stars and the birth of planets and stars which is an electromagnetic phenomenon its not gravitational all these things make sense

25:54 once you actually pay attention to the history. And in 2000 we had an amazing meeting in Portland, Oregon following our conference where we had Halton Arp, the astronomer, we had Tom Van Flandern, the astronomical guy as well who was looking at solar system dynamics and we had Anthony Peratt from Los Alamos Labs who was involved in the highest energy electrical experiments on Earth at the Zeeprinz facility. And at the end of it, we had a meeting just with all of the presenters and people who organized the conference Dave Talbot myself, Duarte Cardona, the other mytho-historian, Ev Cochran and here's another one of the group... You can see that it is entirely multidisciplinary group

26:51 We had engineers, we had ancient scholars, a language specialist, ancient language specialists and so on in that group. And Tony Peratt said that he never imagined that when he went hunting in the desert near Los Alamos and he saw all of the Indian petroglyphs, what he was looking at was mimicking the things he was seeing in these high-energy electrical experiments where they funnel more energy than all the power stations on Earth into something the size of a baked bean tin. And it cost them about 100,000 US to rebuild the facility when they would do the next experiment." Wow! So this was a convergence of the best of modern science with these studies of the most ancient records known to man of what they saw in the sky

27:47 And Tony actually went and said, you know this changes everything. And so he organized people around the world to photograph the petroglyphs because they are worldwide and to also register their position with the GPS and to their relationship with the South Pole or North Pole was in relation to these petroglyphs. And he was able to show that it was a polar phenomenon that they were looking at and it followed the natural progression of what's called plasma instabilities because plasmas, high-energy plasmas take on all sorts of interesting shapes and they're quite characteristic. And he was able to show there is a progression in these petroglyphs so these things that look like weird stick figures with duct heads and whatnot appear to be just doodles on the rocks were actually

28:45 very hard work to do because Tony actually attempted to do one himself on one of the rocks and he said, boy you wouldn't do this for fun. So what they were doing they felt was critical to pass onto future generations as a warning and here they are dotted all around the world chiseled in rocks. The Australian aborigines who have a very ancient history have their lightning brothers in their rock art, and up in the Kimberley's they have these Wunjina figures they're called. And they describe them and say that head dress is lightning it radiates all around the head. And the nose is not a nose, it is the power flowing down when you look at sometimes as shown as hollow column and there's plasma formation so

29:36 Tony actually was then able to go on and show that one of the patterns is one of 56 dots in a circle around a radiating pattern, and he found them in... The North American Indians had them. And there was an example in Australia from the Australian Aborigines exactly the same pattern. He overlaid the two and said when you rotate them to account for their difference in latitude and longitude they match So evidence like this shows that the story of the Earth and humanity is far different to anything we've been taught. It is far more dramatic, it would make the most incredible IMAX movie you could ever imagine! And now the possibility is there to actually do it now because the specificity of the reconstruction by David Talwood and Duarte Cardona is sufficient to be able to do that

30:30 Yes man so many questions and i'm very familiar with what the electric universe model says about our solar systems history and how everything got to where it is now but you mentioned that when you look at these petroglyphs in their orientation it seems like we're dealing with a polar phenomenon and something that i've been reading about lately is this idea of what they call an electromagnetic plasma changeover event oftentimes it's tied up with the idea of a pole shift but you can get a lot stranger with talk about a plasma vortex opening up over the north pole

31:08 that this is what ascension and heaven stories are really alluding to. So they say if government scientists discovered this type of event was possible or that it was cyclical, I could see why they'd suppress anything that relates to it but what are your thoughts? Thoughts on the idea of an electromagnetic plasma changeover event is that a term you've heard is there some kind of global catastrophe, it could be possible with this plasma cosmology understanding that would never be entertained in a conventional model back and stuff. Oh yes, yes absolutely. In fact the magnetic field of stars and planets is not explained at all. It's pushed off to some hypothetical activity inside the body where you can't actually see it and this is typical of a lot of theories like for instance the nuclear power of the Sun well its hidden from view if it's in the center of the Sun we're saying no it's right in front of your eyes if you've got the sense to see it

32:06 with the magnetic field of bodies. If you've been keeping up with my presentations on gravity, you'll know that the magnetic and gravitational force both electric forces, dipole forces and therefore it changes everything about the internal structure of a body. And it also means that each planetary body appears as a spherical electrette as its called and electrette is an object which maintains a static charge.

32:46 you have a charged body rotating and you get a magnetic field, the dipole field. Now of course this did occur to geophysicists many years ago and there was some discussion about it but they calculated that the voltage on the Earth required to produce the Earth's magnetic field would be millions of volts and therefore it wouldn't work but they were suffering the same problem as the astrophysicist in treating things electrostatically but we live in a plasma universe. In the plasma universe, the plasma isolates charged bodies electrically by forming double layers around it or plasma sheaths as they're called and this sort of idea is not entertained at all in astrophysics so they don't talk about electricity and space and yet the Electric Universe says you're missing the most important aspect both for space and for particle physicists

33:49 it's also the most important aspect of matter. But it's not actually used in a way that makes any sense by either of them. Anyway, yes I can explain switching the magnetic orientation of the Earth, its magnetic field at the same time Don Scott model, Professor Don Scott who produced the transistor model of the photosphere also pointed out that the switching magnetic field of the Sun is easily explained using electrical engineering principles.

34:26 In my opinion, I've stated this several times over the years. Electrical engineers should take over cosmology because it is an electric universe and electrical engineers know that whenever they propose something they have to figure out how is it going to work whereas physicists seem to be quite happy to just propose randomly particles and new particles and new energies and all sort of thing on the basis that maybe they'll get a Nobel Prize for it right and we did talk about the composition of bodies a little bit last time and you didn't mention the dipole nature of them. I am curious because that's another weird thing i've always heard stories of that i've always liked jules verne in all kinds of strange things about, the hollow earth and really what's crazy cuz it's not that crazy that there is cavities inside the earth to me i mean its huge place

35:22 But this idea of an inner sun, it's like where would someone even get that concept from? But this dipole nature. Do you think that could be something we have echoes and understanding of or is what they might be trying to express in cases like that? It is an interesting proposition that more was known than forgotten. things in the past which we're only gradually rediscovering now. And this makes sense if you look at Velikovsky's contention that we are survivors of survivors, of survivors of catastrophic events that the Earth went through in the past and I can understand that from the reconstruction that we've done of the Earth's recent history which is quite amazing

36:12 It would help science fiction, any science fiction story and yet we know that all the evidence is there that we can say well, we can explain the composition of atmospheres and stars and moons and planets. And also look at objects in the solar system and give you a much clearer idea how they got to where they are and where they happen to be right now just based on being able to say things from this broader perspective. Is this broad perspective you need now when it comes to hello planet that is the most likely outcome of having a dipole force of gravity you can imagine

37:00 You've got two magnets, two strong magnets and you try and force the same poles together. And what happens? They push each other apart. You can feel that force pushing them apart. So if you have a spherical magnet with one pole facing outwards in the other pole facing inwards then you have the internal region of the planet can be hollow because the force acting there is to push any matter from the center outwards, away from the center. Of course we do find hollow objects on the Earth called geodes. Yeah! Also in the laboratory when we were replicating the formation of those so-called Martian blueberries, we found that we're producing hollows spheres as well

37:53 And also on beaches and so on around the world, you'll find these things called mockey balls which are hollow. And the question is how do you form these hollow objects? Then we look at comets and comet nuclei which are rocky and sometimes they're fused into a dumbbell shape. These are characteristic formations that we saw when we were producing these Martian blueberries. We would find two of them fused together to form a dumbbell shape Also, you can begin to understand why there are so many binary stars. There's pairs of stars outnumber single star in the local galaxy and the question is why is that so? Well, the answer is simple when you understand the electrical formation of stars and planets and comets and asteroids and so on

38:48 Very interesting and i wanted to ask you kind of a weird one about plasma but this comes from the sapphire project website net says, irving laying mirror coined the word plasma describe ionized gas. The lifelike behavior of charged particles reminded him of the qualities of blood plasma." Okay, well this is interesting because I've had guests who have done experiments with plasmas say something similar. That it seemed lifelike and conscious almost intelligent almost Eric Dollard apparently did an experiment with plasma and took a photo of what looks like a little

39:28 spirit in the air next to it that he couldn't explain. I don't know what to make of that either, but i'm curious if you have any thoughts on this quality of plasma being lifelike and what that could imply? Yes! People generally experience those plasma balls, novelty plasma balls and you'll notice the electrical discharges in them are filamentary and they snake about. And of course, you put a finger on the glass envelope and they'll head to your finger so they do have this sort of lifelike appearance or quality. And of course, the ancients who witnessed that plasma phenomena quite startling and frightening times and majestic at others, plasma phenomena in the skies towards the poles

40:20 rather like an amazing auroral display. But when it's in space, the plasma will take on various forms and one of them is the squatter-man one which is detailed in Tony Peratt's work and he points out that the squatter man is actually a plasma formation where you have two sort of disc shaped forms of the plasma centered on a glowing column and the edges of the discs turn upwards. Now because the plasma is, you can see through it partially because it's a glow discharge, it looks like a figure with a head and upraised arms and outstretched legs so they've got the arms up at right angles to the body and legs out stretched at right angles to the body and they call it The Squatter Man and that's worldwide

41:23 and it's a very well-known form of plasma instability. But it also has other forms and progresses through them, and all these are represented in ancient art and particularly in the most ancient civilizations like the Egyptians with their kind of backbone ladder to heaven. The ladder to heaven came from this picture of plasma discharge stretching up into the sky away from the Earth. So, the lifelike characteristics were transferred to ... were anthropomorphized in other words so a man was made in the image of God well the god was a plasma god and of course it looked like a man with his arms and legs outstretched over the earth and stretching up into the heavens

42:15 And so you can begin to understand what they were trying to talk about when they talked about the kingdom of heaven and whatnot. It was, they witnessed things being constructed in the plasma formations in the sky. The pyramids were built to echo the effect of a column which is lit on one side and dark on the other and stretching up into the sky like a triangular shape with the pinnacle pointing towards planet Mars and us at the base. And you get the idea of the world mountain, the navel of the world, the navel of... The whole idea of a World Tree, this tree that stretched into heaven. Right! So all these sort of biological overtones to the description of plasma things in the sky had a reason and that is the lifelike behavior of plasma. Interesting!

43:14 I was going to take that a different direction just because i hear so many researchers sort of use the terms electricity and even ether and consciousness in different contexts that all sort of circle around what sounds like they're oftentimes saying the same thing. Some people use those terms almost interchangeably, to a degree well my thought was if Irving coined the term plasmid to describe ionized gas, electrically charged gas I guess is what we could say and found it to seem lifelike. It does make me wonder if consciousness and electricity might be the same thing or at least entangled that maybe charging a gas might even cause consciousness to emerge within it? What do you think? Well in The Electric Universe I'm keen to define my terms

44:07 terms that are not defined in modern physics. And one of the things about the aether is that it is an absolute necessity, you cannot have electromagnetic waves traveling through a pure vacuum otherwise there's nothing there and it seems crazy to me that we even contemplate such a thing when its known that the vacuum has the characteristics of a dielectric material It is material. Now, at the time when I was getting involved with Velikovsky there was a small monograph put out by Dr Horace Dudley who was a radiation physicist and he proposed the idea that the ether as it's called is a material medium and its made up of neutrinos. That made sense to me simply because neutrinos must

45:09 if they exist and they've been shown to exist experimentally, they must be composed of normal matter just like everything else but in a state where it has very low energy, very low mass. And once I accepted that idea this was Horace Dudley's proposal that we live in a... you know the universe is not empty its full! It's full of this neutrino sea if you like an ocean neutrinos Once you had that idea in your mind, you could understand then how a particle and its so-called anti-particle which is a complete misnomer can suddenly pop into existence. They don't pop into existence they are the result of a neutrino accepting energy and then splitting it to... into a positive or negative particle with identical characteristics

46:10 The very idea of an antiparticle is nonsense because one of the principles of physics says you cannot magically create or destroy matter. And if you give up that principle, then you're not doing physics. So that's been the case for the last century or more. So the ether is necessary. If it is a material medium and its made up of positive and negative charge, smaller ones, not the electron proton we're talking about another level down if you like It's a repeated pattern and this is typical of how the universe operates. It has repeated patterns, the successful pattern in one dimension, one level of existence can be seen in lower and possibly upper, you know, one level up. Anyway having sorted that out I then realized that matter

47:06 Because it is a resonant system of charged particles, if it wasn't resonant they would just fly apart and wouldn't exist. That means all the particles exchange energy between themselves in an orbit like in an atom. And the reason the electrons don't just dissipate energy and fall into the nucleus attracted into the positive nucleus is because they exchange energy in real time, which means the electric force must operate in real time. No speed of light delay, instantaneous! This means that gravity for instance, is an electric force because it operates in real-time Newton's law doesn't include time or T in the equation. All these things give you some impression that

47:56 All the things that are considered to be woo-woo science, like ESP remote viewing and so on can be understood in terms of this same kind of signaling that keeps the planets in their orbits about the Sun. Only this time at a biological level and this kind of signaling is necessary instantaneous signaling between all similar molecules in the body instantaneously to maintain control of an incredibly complex series of chemical reactions that are taking place all the time in your body. There's trillions of things going on at any instance and to maintain coherence, therefore remain alive requires that they all know what's going on throughout the body so you get this mind-body connection is instantaneous

48:50 And Bruce Lipton, the cellular biologist has shown that the cell walls have receptors. Now some of those receptors operate on the basis of signals in the blood you know hormones and other triggers which then determine what the cells should do but he said there are receptors that don't seem to be associated with anything in the body, inside the body but seem to receive signals from outside. And this comes down then to Rupert Sheldrake and the outstanding biologist who has looked at what's called the morphogenetic field and then you begin to understand that a living system is more than meets-the-eye to a living creature. And that is it has a morphogenetic field, it has a pattern which

49:41 is built to, it's constructed based on a pattern that pre-exists in the ether if you like. So life and consciousness and memory according to people like Bruce Lichten and Rupert Sheldrake has this other existence at a more fundamental level You get a completely different idea of life and death Life and death, this is just an episode in the life if you like at a more fundamental level. And I think people have always had this impression that there is mortal life that meets the eye. There's a higher self or soul or that kind of thing. If these were actually believed and utilized by science

50:30 we would have a much better health system, it would not be an illness system. It would be a health system and also people will not have this existential fear of death you know? Death is a part of life but is not the end of anything! And I think if people felt that...and also the universe in my opinion appears to need purpose. In other words you were born with a purpose. But of course, our society, our cultures and our education knock that out of us. It's only those who are lucky enough to stumble on what their purpose is or it so strongly in them when they're born that they become a Mozart or some other amazing genius. You know? It's inexplicable otherwise!

51:21 yes i've heard about some people instituting new educational models where they say if you pay attention to small children, they will express some sort of talent that's the job to notice is like hey your really good at x y z but instead they put us in a school system where they teach to the least common denominator and everybody must spread their education, talents and just their bandwidth across all these subjects that they don't care about. When really if they focused on the one thing that seems to be trying to pour out of them, it could be Mozart or something." Yes yes we're all amazing individuals and we come with a purpose to learn something generally

52:10 It's interesting for me because these ideas have dawned on me slowly over the years, but the more...the older I get, the more I realize that I'm where I am only because I followed my intuition. And the intuition your feelings are the guide and I've always paid attention to my children and grandchildren to see what it is that excites them? What is it they feel they want to get involved in or to do So if they show an interest, I've seen a grandchild who knew they wanted to play the violin at very early age and insisted. And so her mother took her along and sure enough she was very good at the violin. That doesn't mean that's what she will continue to do but if you follow these clues from the child listen to them

53:03 and not try to force your ideas on them, that person has a better chance of fulfilling their lives. And that is the thing which will make people happy. Not the industrialized education system which has resulted in an industrialized science and that industrialized science is so naive that it's actually dangerous! We can see that And by not understanding ourselves, we continue to behave as Velikovsky pointed out, irrationally. He said all of humanity behaves irrationally and the danger that he saw was that this irrationality could drive us to our own destruction. We are our own worst enemy and that's something it was also echoed by the famous psychologist and psychiatrist Carl Jung who identified these things that haunt us from the past

54:01 And one of the major ones is this sort of post-traumatic stress disorder, having lived through doomsday. I look back over my life and I can see that ever since I was very young there was always a doomsday story. We had to be afraid of this or that or the other... There seem to be in couple of those right now? Oh yeah we've got one right now so it's got a mass psychosis The things that were being told by the media and politicians, it's got nothing to do with science. It's a psychosis! And it was the same thing of course that drove Hitler and the other madmen of the past... Of course, it is the madmen who take advantage of these situations. Yes

54:50 well said amen to a lot of the things that you just said there and you mentioned health and i am curious if the electric universe understanding has any implications for human health and wellness obviously it's been a big theme over last year and half i've had a lotta guests who think that Like cosmology the science of medicine and health is way off track from where it should be you should be treating the body holistically and some say energetically or electrically with light in frequency yes there were devices and studies like this one that i jotted down words as

55:26 A study by Arizona State University, along with researchers at Johns Hopkins University shows how strong blasts of visible light from a low-power laser can kill viruses. The laser technique appears to be more successful than other methods at killing viruses and also poses less harm to healthy tissue. And I'm seeing more stuff like this all the time, and I wonder if you or your colleagues have looked at health and disease from an electrical- or frequency-based standpoint and considered that Western medicine has got it all wrong? Yes. All of our science is a dismal failure at present simply because the experts in one field mislead the experts in another field with things they don't know they do not know

56:14 And the result is, it's a babble of nonsense generally. But with the industrialized education and scientific regime our hospitals are industrialized I mean you get this sense of abandon hope all year when to hear when you enter hospital or at least i do because they have no idea of the mind-body connection and also the fact that consciousness in so on exists beyond the body and that they deal more like mechanics, you know. If this bit's not working we'll just cut it out or we'll zap it with radiation or chemicals or whatever. It's got nothing to do with the way life operates. For instance when I talk about immunity from viruses, we're always in this war against nature and the only one that is going to lose is us because nature is far more subtle than

57:12 interconnected than any current biological scientist understands. Although many of them have intuited it and many medical practitioners also have intuited that there's more to it than just chemical interference, one of the things I'm hoping is that when the Electric Universe revolution takes place because it is a revolution, its unparalleled the understanding it's a cultural shift as big as anything, or probably bigger than anything in the past. Because at last we understand what our ancient forefathers were desperate for us to learn and in the process we begin to understand our real place in the universe and our perspective on everything will change. And that change will be for the better simply because we recognize ourselves as conscious beings in a conscious universe

58:15 with a purpose. And most people today have no purpose, they sort of make... They try and fill their days with either acquisition of things or entertainment, mindless entertainment lot of it whereas if they could follow find and follow their purpose their life would be fulfilling we wouldn't have all the divisions in all the nonsense is going on right now this is my hope for the future and at present I'm writing THE book which will wear all of this out yes i heard you mention that in a previous interview what more can you say about this next book is it seems to be one that is gonna look at many different aspects and try to take that full on holistic approach to kind of explain everything else the just that i seem to be picking up on your sister will be different to the things over in the past

59:11 because I've got a research assistant who is doing an amazing job in tracking down the differences, the history of ideas and showing how the Electric Universe at every step has been able to either predict or explain things simply while mainstream view of things conventional consensus view has only hit one brick wall after another. and been unsuccessful in predicting anything of use, it will be unlike anything that's been written before. But because it has this historical background and looking at characters in the past, it should be very readable. You don't need any mathematics or you need to do is to be able to piece together a coherent story which shows everything like a huge jigsaw puzzle with all the pieces in place so that you actually see the entire picture

1:00:08 modern science today is a whole set of jigsaw pieces scattered on the floor by comparison. Right on what is so much information one of the last things i want to ask you about was the grid obviously tesla had some thoughts but given what you know about electricity would u rework our power grid are we going about harnessing it, the wrong way are we vulnerable to this sun's energy in that regard when do you think about the way we harness electricity. Here on the planet and maybe how we can do it better which pretty primitive in many regards

1:00:48 The SAFIRE experiment has shown that we can produce power supplies of almost any size you want. It's scalable, so it could power cities or neighborhoods or whatever you would not need. In fact it would be a waste of money having national grids. You don't need to do that. You can provide power on a very localized basis It would also make a huge difference down here in Australia because of all the bushfires, serious bushfires that are started by transmission lines that fail or arc to the ground. Yeah California too! But that's really interesting so just before I let you go if you were to approach the task of powering a neighborhood with what you've discovered in The Sapphire Project

1:01:45 How much room would you need for that device or that mini electric star to power a neighborhood? And how would it get to the houses, just through typical wiring through this central electric star. Yes there's no need to make it complicated. You just use wiring to the people who need it, or the industry or devices or whatever needs it and The SAFIRE reactor is quite compact, you know. So I suppose something the size of a shipping container could do quite a number of houses, I would imagine.

1:02:28 Wow. Tesla seemed to think there was a way to get electricity wirelessly, could that be implemented or is that not really necessary? No no I'm not interested in interfering with the electromagnetic spectrum it's already a mess and no biologist knows what effect an electromagnetic signal will have on biological system simply because they don't understand the sort of quantum level resonant structures and signaling that goes on in a biological system. I think the only reason we've survived so long is that the signaling is the same kind as Tesla was using, and that is the longitudinal wave type signaling. And when I say wave it's not actually a wave, its'a direct signal. So there is no such thing as gravitational waves as such

1:03:24 Yeah, I mean that's interesting our our phone companies and electric companies, they seem to just willy-nilly throw out all kinds of signals into our environment. Oh yes, yes. Elon Musk's trying to do his star net thing it's like I don't know if that is so safe because there is a relationship between biology and electricity It's not safe because they don't understand what they're doing the biologists don't understand life and the radiation guys don't understand what what the connection is between an electromagnetic signal and one of these biological signals. Well, we got all kinds of problems to work out it seems but... Oh yes! One of the exciting things for me is that the number of questions that I raise in the possibilities that are put forward could keep multiple universities going for a century. I agree definitely but

1:04:22 But this has been a serious pleasure once again. I definitely think there are many alternative areas of study that seem to be overlapping and coming to similar understandings way more often than I was seeing even five years ago when we last talked, so it's an exciting time to be alive, I would say. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with us before we call it in give people any information they might need important links or anything to follow up on what you might have going on in the future, on top of that book you're working on. Well the main public interface is Thunderbolts.info My own website which is being looked after by the same outfit I'm pleased to say is holoscience.com If people want to follow the progress of the SAFIRE results

1:05:15 they can look at aureon.ca for Canada, A-U-R-E-O-N dot C-A. Very cool! Great resources and people if you haven't read the Electric Universe book by now it's been out a decade it's about time but man this has been a lot of fun your work in time is very much appreciated keep doing what you do out there and take care okay thanks Greg Oh my, my good people of the internet. The return of the Thunderbolts Project co-parent Wal Thornhill riding along the cutting edge of a new paradigm and for me the Electric Universe model does feel right or at least way more right than the conventional one it almost seems esoteric adjacent

1:06:07 No mathematical gymnastics, no needing to shoehorn in equations to get the pieces to fit. It just seems to make sense and it's a much more elegant and simplified model. Kind of jives with the holofractal stuff too I mean as above so below The same principles of nature at different scales...I'm into it And it was great to get deeper into the Sapphire project too, something that's been mentioned here many times. The old plasma star in a jar? Sounds like the experiment was an over-the-top success! I am excited to see that turn into a new energy source that makes its way onto the main stage In so many areas I think conventional models are at the end of the road and people who have bought them are scratching their heads and alternatives are catching up

1:07:01 Maybe I'm in a bit of an alternative bubble, but it feels like we're making progress. Also today the living plasma stuff was fun bashing industrialized education was fun and biological transmutation! Also some really good points were made about that maybe we don't have to look that hard to find evidence of alchemy. I've been so focused on the outer world But it seems like it's been right there in the inner world all along. I liked that Maybe there were a couple of places where my questions started to get too radical, but hey. We ask so that we can find the line! I wanted to talk to Wahl again but never want to rehash the same stuff we've talked about before So i didn't want to get too fundamental about the overall Electric Universe model But there are still a lot on the edges that we got to talk about That helped me fill in the picture

1:08:02 And how about that little side note that the person who coined the term plasma was defining ionized gas, which relates to George Wiseman and the plasma state of water. Ionized browns gas! Maybe that's a little basic? Maybe that's high school science 101? Maybe everyone knows that plasma is technically ionized gas but I thought it was a nice sink Lots of people have been asking me for updates on the AquaCure machine. For me, it's still a little too early to say I've only worked up to the full 20 minute sessions three times a day for a couple days now My sinuses have been really terrible lately maybe you can tell So i'm hoping to get some relief there I don't think this is something that will heal my deaf ear I really didn't think that was going to happen That's probably going to be soul retrieval through shamanic healing

1:08:59 Whole nother story. But with the AquaCure I would be completely satisfied if i just never had bad sinuses again, that is what I'm looking for! I could say that the 20 minute sessions do make me feel maybe a little light-headed? I could say that I do feel like I have some excess energy which is great because I'm usually running on fumes I give the bubbled water to the pets and i don't really know how to assess how that's going. The cats were, and still are fine. The dog is 15 years old and has had a really rough time getting around the past six months And for the last three months she's had seizures pretty much every 30-35 days So that's something we can actually check and see if we can make some progress on it's measurable

1:09:51 But the problem is that the Brown's gas bubbled water is not the only change we've made. She's getting more CBD and other natural seizure remedies, same with my sinuses though I've been cutting way back on alcohol which contains histamine in most cases and I got a new allergy mushroom blend kind of thing so again it is hard to peg a fix to one thing or another But George was really convincing to me and he says now that he's sold out. He's on a seven week delay so huge response from us I hope those machines do help A lot of people the sad thing to me is just how this shows how many people have issues and can't get solves from conventional medicine i know that price tag was steep,

1:10:39 As I said, definitely let THC be the introduction to George Wiseman and the Aqua Cure. But don't let it be the end of the research! That's too much pressure for me. Do more digging before you buy a $2,000 machine. And it has been a few weeks and so far nobody has sent me any legitimate negative reviews or breakdowns of the machine that say its not legitimate So I feel good Anyone can say, oh you're a shill or this is snake oil. But I'm talking about some kind of legitimate detailed breakdown that makes the case that this is a fraud and that I haven't seen hell of a tangent but yes, I feel good Let me go a few more weeks and we'll see I just wanted to slide a little update in there because plasma did come up but I'm a big fan of wall He is a good sport

1:11:35 willing to talk about some pretty far-out stuff while still remaining a serious scientific person. Not an easy line to walk, and we got into some great additional stuff in the plus show if you missed the second half We talked about how the Earth's saltwater came from the rings of Saturn ancient accounts of two suns or Saturn is the Sun what signs have been observed that relate to the Electric Universe model cosmic rays coming from the Antarctic ice How the scientific and academic communities have responded or not responded to the SAFIRE project's results. How the Electric Universe model handles so many bodies out there but only life on Earth

1:12:19 How the moon landing could have happened while working with such an incorrect model. Other clues that are on Saturn and Jupiter's moons, what the Electric Universe Model says about Saturns hexagonal polar storm, and Wahl's thoughts on a potential grand solar minimum. Intriguing and provocative stuff added to the stack. Nothing new here we do it week after week don't know why eight dollars would keep you from hearing the whole thing But you've heard it all before. Sign up for THC+. In times like these, it is a small but meaningful revolutionary act. Feed the things you want to grow and starve the things you want to go! And if you can't do that at least share the show I don't request that very often because the show does what it does and I'd do alright... ...but every new listener is a greater impact for our guests and some of the revolutionary paradigm-changing things they bring up

1:13:17 It all helps to reach more minds. It all helps to throw a little fuel on the alternative fire Again, I think we are making inroads in so many different areas and the system is stagnant it's a beautiful thing! I don't know why I'm all fired up but I am These are the ideas that will build the new world I have really started to believe that because all of the conventional Western industrialized corporate processes models and products are failing You play a big hand and you show your cards. I mean even ones that are still thriving like Amazon, they're definitely losing the PR war their employees and their customers hate them so if we actually voted with our dollar we could change it all yada yada yada

1:14:10 Good times today though. Clearly me and Walt have a bit of a disagreement on the moon landing I would think the fact that their models are so wrong would only add to the stack of how that mission actually could realistically be possible but Walt was a lot closer to the data at the time and is a lot smarter than i am He also made a good point, that new knowledge that apparently came out of the Apollo missions was contradictory to what they expected And that is a good point that supports walls position but my counterpoints would be. Well maybe they had to show some new discoveries to validate the reasoning for performing the missions spending that money, maybe they made discoveries through other means that push them to alter their models and i just use the apollo missions as a window of opportunity implement them

1:15:06 Or maybe we went to the moon with technology that they didn't want to disclose and the secret space program is alive and well. Who knows really, but I at least liked asking Wall about it and he made some good points Follow up with The Thunderbolts Project and The Sapphire Project websites if you wanna stay current on what they got going on Talk to your city council about getting a star in the jar to power the neighborhood! I had a good time, I hope you did too Take care of you and yours and i'm gettin' outta here Your move, stubborn scientists, industrialized education institutions and plasma cosmology concealers. You're fuckin' who. Woke up this morning with light in my eye And then realized it was dark outside It was like coming down from the sky Oh oh

1:16:17 Must be those strangers that come every night Whose saucers shaped like put people uptight Leave blue-green footprints that glow in the dark I hope they get home Mr. Spaceman, won't you please take me along? Don't do anything wrong

1:16:59 Hey, Mr. Space Won't you please take me along the high side? Woke up this morning was feeling quite weird I had flies in my beer My toothpaste was smeared I opened my window they'd written my name Said

1:17:36 So long, we'll see you again Hey Mr. Spaceman Won't you please take me along? Don't do anything wrong Hey spaceman won't you please take me along the high side Mr. Spaceman won't you please take me along

1:18:22 I won't do anything wrong Hey, Mr. Space Won't you please take me along the high side?