Thomas J. Carey & Donald R. Schmitt | Roswell, The Real Area 51, & UFO Disclosure

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00:51 Which means you'll unfortunately never hear my voice again. Here we go people, coming in hot. From sunny San Diego I'm Greg Carlwood and we are definitely no strangers to the world's weirdness, conspiracies, cryptids, crop circles, spell spirits, spaceships and the rest of it And anyone who digs beyond this surface level will find a Pandora's box of paranormal sagas and stories itching to be told

01:51 But the strange tale that takes the cake as the granddaddy of them all has to be the infamous Roswell incident, where 72 years ago in this very month of July, The Roswell Army Airfield put out a press release that they had found a crashed flying saucer in the New Mexico desert only to reverse course with their weather balloon cover story the following day and dedicated researchers have been off to races ever since. Well, I figured with all the buzz permeating from this latest round of UFO enthusiasm it might be time to dust off this case and re-examine the famous Roswell saga again in detail with a Roswell research duo that have been plugging away at this story for a long time. In fact they have combined 57 years of study into just this case alone and i'm talking about Thomas J Carey & Donald R Schmitt

02:42 If you're unfamiliar, Tom Carey served in the Air Force in his younger days where he held a top secret crypto clearance. His long time interest in UFOs led him to becoming the MUFON State Section Director for Southeastern Pennsylvania in 1986. Since 1991, he's been solely focused on the Roswell case and Tom also became a special investigator for the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies in 1992 and served on its board of directors from 1997 through 2001 Through that process He partnered up with Donald Schmidt who is the former co-director of the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO studies where he served as director of Special Investigations For 10 years

03:26 Both of these fine gentlemen have written extensively about UFOs and the Roswell case, including several books they've written together such as Witness to Roswell Unmasking the Government's Biggest Cover-Up Inside The Real Area 51 The Secret History of Wright Patterson The Children Of Roswell A Seven Decade Legacy of Fear Intimidation And Cover Ups And the recently released UFO Secrets Inside Wright Patterson And with that, let's get into it. Keeping the dream alive fresh off the plane from the annual UFO festival in Roswell New Mexico two dedicated Roswell researchers extraordinaire Tom and Don welcome to The Higher Side

04:05 Nice to be with you, Greg. Yes absolutely same here thank you yeah thanks for being here guys this is uh gonna be a lot of fun I think this audience is pretty well educated on the Roswell incident it's obviously one of the foundational sagas for a show like this But it is July, it's 72 years later. The annual UFO festival was just this past weekend You guys have a new book out that NewPage was kind enough to send to me And we definitely have a spike in UFO coverage lately and who better to talk about than the dynamic duo with over 50 year of combined investigation into Roswell

04:43 Here we are, but I wanted to take a second and ask Tom about this top secret crypto clearance. I understand this is a clearance for cryptography. Can you tell us anything more about that? Did your experiences in the Air Force ever relate to the UFO issue or did you at least get a context for how secrets are handled that became useful in the Roswell research? Well no actually when you have the top secret slash whatever...in my case it was crypto the encryption of messages and the decryption of messages. That's all you were clear top secret versions, I couldn't go into the Pentagon and say hey I have a top-secret clearance crypto let me see this or that it wouldn't get you very far so to answer your question i was in the Air Force before I ever heard of Roswell

05:35 While I did have a sighting on the base, it had nothing to do with Roswell or other UFO incidents. I was pretty much busy trying to keep myself afloat in what i was doing. That and trying to stay out of the stockade, right? Yes yes yeah. Right on! And Don you've written for decades about UFO's and Roswell including several books with Tom as I mentioned in the intro. In fact in 2013 your book Inside the real Area 51, The Secret History of Wright-Patterson was released and now six years later you've released UFO Secrets Inside Wright-Patterson. I think some listeners might wonder what else we need to know about the Roswell case? Let them know what pieces of the puzzle this latest book adds that we didn't have before how does this one move the needle well for having worked personally with Dr Jalen Eynick for those years

06:33 that many felt that he had discounted the very notion of crash saucers and really displayed no interest at all. We have a whole new chapter demonstrating that, or actually even the time when he was at Project Blue Book, he was becoming more and more fascinated with the possibility. And then as he saw it, he would often comment I'm an old man in a hurry when we'd be working together in the field he realized that it was his one ace up his sleeve, so to speak. That he could finally trump the Air Force in coming up with physical evidence for the reality of a phenomenon. So we have a lot of new information regarding Hynek and even regarding Roswell as he himself was delving into it. We have a whole new chapter on a lot of Len Stringfield's personal file cases

07:31 that specifically focused on Wright-Patterson, and some may have been related to Roswell and other cases may have pertained to other possible crash retrieval cases. But Roswell, as you call it Craig, is the granddaddy. And just to quickly correct you with the Air Force, specifically I should say the Roswell Army airfield putting out that famous press release on Tuesday July 8th. That they had actually captured which is a bit of a misnomer in itself capturing the flying disks, the flying saucers but it was a mere five hours later that same day that going up the chain of command and

08:12 This is where we become infamous. The balloon press conference in General Roger Ramey's office in Fort Worth, Texas at Carlsville Army Airfield where they played the old switcheroo and they came out with the alternative explanation and that's the one that stuck. That's the one for the next 30 years the Air Force got away with their alternative solution to what actually crashed back in Roswell in 47. Well, that is a great setup and 72 years. I mean, a lot has happened since then let me ask you about all the UFO news lately? I find it to be concerning and exciting but it's definitely very controlled and methodical. You write in the book about the CIA infiltration of media outlets so when CNN, The New York Times, The Washington Post all start talking about these things

09:07 Most likely because the media handlers want them to. What do you Roswell veterans think about what's happening here today? Well, Craig we've had so many of these oh boy they're going to release it now episodes I quite frankly am puzzled granted they released this video and i think its that video from the Navy that really has kept this thing going where before would be one person Like in 1974, Professor Robert Spencer Carr came out down there in Florida and started talking about Hangar 18 at Wright-Patterson. It caused a big stir for a couple days but that was it. But this one we've had several people of some standing express interest in bringing the UFO information out

10:03 former Senator Harry Reid from Nevada, a couple of people that are from the Defense Department. You have this Louis Elizondo going around. He headed up a project for five years at the Defense Department trying to determine trends and things like that which reminded me of Project Stork that they did back in the 1950s but to answer your question whether this is going to lead the disclosure, which is what I think you're hinting at. There's a more encouraged but I still don't think that the Air Force especially is ever going to admit this because they have too many skeletons in the closet. You'd have to admit, hey folks we've been lying to you for 72 years! How about that? Let's move on

10:56 Plus, they have so many skeletons relating to how he suppressed the Roswell case that I don't see the Air Force ever changing their position or commenting on especially Roswell again. But the Navy might be something different. I hold my final thoughts and abeyance. I can be persuaded either way, but i'm sort of skeptical." Well, I'm certainly skeptical! Harry Reid as far as I understand has been one of the premier people to block things like audits of the Federal Reserve and it's like is this someone who really likes transparency and secrecy? Alessandro he has strange

11:37 connections to the CIA and counterintelligence from what I understand. I don't know if these are the people that I want in charge of disclosure, this almost seems like a weaponized disclosure. Well then why don't we throw Tom DeLonge into the mix as well? Throw him in! My god now we got a rock star who totally disavows Roswell. He believes it was nothing more than a Nazi bell. Here's a guy who has never been to Roswell, he has never been to New Mexico, he never spoke to single witness, never talked either one of us but now he is the new authority on Roswell." Well so that kind of speaks up the whole situation and that is why we have been here before

12:26 and we can throw MJ-12 in the picture, and before that with Heineck with Gerald Ford. After that Jimmy Carter... These carrots have been dangled for years! And then they always come up with some alternative solution or situation, and ufology are the ones who sit there with their egg on their face. So it's like Is it intentional to discredit us or, you know, continue their smear campaign? Or is it to cover up the fact that they are experimenting with some new state-of-the art technology. Or are we dealing with something from the Soviet Union or China that there's a case of now they got to play catchup and they're trying to coax Congress into providing new additional funding for the defense budget so again buyer beware

13:17 Indeed. And as you point out repeatedly in the book, it's the Air Force that's really kind of at the head of the documents that are involving Roswell and in this latest push, it does seem to be a lot of Navy reports and it seems like maybe we have some infighting between military branches... And that is true Craig I don't want to interrupt Tom but When Project Blue Book was declassified in 1977, and much of it wasn't declassified. For example it mentioned specifically over 20 gun camera cases Well where are these films? Where are these gun camera footage that could truly serve as physical evidence dealing with the phenomenon And there were just a smattering Just a handful of Navy and Army cases in the blue book files

14:12 So if anybody believes that they weren't conducting their own investigations, then lest we forget Roswell was an army incident. was not the Air Force. There was no Air Force back in July of 1947. Yes, and that becomes kind of the issue is you got to recontextualize exactly when certain branches were formed and everything but it is a tangled mess and a lot of these military branches are in competition they don't necessarily work together on a lot of things and a wonderful recent example of this would be with Desert Storm. And I will never forget, with Stormin Norman, General Norman Schwarzkopf having his press conference and he was complaining that he didn't have open communication with the Navy or the Air Force That very first raid that very first night over Baghdad in the Air Force declared air supremacy over Iraq

15:13 Well, the army didn't know if they were in a march downtown Baghdad or not. And then they weren't hearing from the Navy who were still lobbing Tomahawk missiles into the city. So here was a recent example of where they're not on the same page. I find that's amazing that after all these years—you're absolutely correct, Craig—they are in competition with one another Unless we forget, as far as even at the end of World War II, Curtis LeMay wanted to continue bombing Germany into submission and surrender. And Eisenhower felt it was only right that the army would march downtown Berlin and declare victory

15:56 So, there's nothing new about this and it certainly is not like nothing new about their UFO competition either. Right exactly that compartmentalization and competition definitely spills over into the UFO field And I wanted to quote the book here because i think you hit on something super relevant when you say just a couple of weeks after The Weather Balloon explanation was accepted by the national media The National Security Act was passed and the CIA, the National Security Council and the Department of Defense were officially established. Well people talk about a private cabal that acts autonomously within the government and this seems like the formation of it right here I guess i would ask how you guys see that information being relevant to not only the Roswell situation but also analyzing disclosure in general and the mainstream media's role in it? Well as Don said

16:52 event occurred in July of 1947, and there was no Air Force at that point. It was the Army Air Corps which was part of the Army Air Forces which was part of the army so you have the National Security Act I think it's September something or other 1947 You have the new air force and the CIA which was formed out of the OSS Central Intelligence Group, CIG as it was called back then. So you have all these new entities formed. You know back then World War II was just over and the military was held in very high esteem by all the citizens of the United States so when they said it was a weather balloon it was a weather balloon end-of story! So the media have never

17:52 I'm talking about the mainstream media, not cable TV where you have shows about everything. But the mainstream media depends upon their circulation—I believe upon their credibility for reporting and UFOs especially since the 1950's with the Contact-D situation UFOs are taboo subject and Roswell falls right into that because in 1993–94 when Congressman Stephen Schiff instituted an investigation into the handling of documents relating to the Roswell incident. He was not trying to solve the Roswell incident, prove it one way or another. He was trying to see whether the documents had been handled and classified correctly. Well lo and behold, the documents had been destroyed by an unknown authority having been in the Air Force I know in a military you need authority to go to the bathroom

18:56 the fact that something like this was done under unknown authority leads to a speculation, like um...something really nefarious is going on here. So the media—the general media because you know in cable TV it's sharks and UFOs and ghosts are covered—they have shows on those but the mainstream media does not want to cover UFOs. It's a taboo subject, you start covering UFOs if you're a congressman or senator oh there goes Senator UFO! You know the old theme song for Matter Limits and it's a subject they don't want to deal with at all unless it's like The New York Times. They bought the Project Mogul hook line sinker end of story so

19:55 I don't know if that answers your question, but my telephone interrupted me. No worries, no worries. I mean, I'm just thinking you know, I don't have the TV network family tree in front of me but a lot of these even cable networks and mainstream news organizations are owned by the same conglomerate companies up at the top and it seems like yes taboo and ridicule are a factor but the biggest factor seems to be the CIA's infiltration of the media establishment and them just completely being the gatekeepers as to what's covered and when it's covered and how it's covered, wouldn't you say? Well Craig you certainly remember that very famous expose that Carl Bernstein wrote for Rolling Stone. And he named names! He went right down the list from The New York Times through Time Magazine Newsweek all the major newspapers and identified all the CIA infiltrators

20:56 and then to learn afterwards that there are buildings with thousands of CIA employees, that every day they essentially write and rewrite the news. And that should be disconcerting to all of us as Americans, the idea... and we often make the comment that if you truly want to hear what's going on in America read The Foreign Press. And as you were talking about it there are five major owners now of all the American media And they're pretty much all on the same page. Exactly! And that's true, the fact that we're not getting objective journalism investigative journalism is a lost art

21:40 and the very thought that even reality shows aren't reality shows. I'm sorry, ladies and gentlemen it's all professional wrestling they are all scripted. Cheers to that! They don't like history you know American history is not taught or not shown on mainstream media you do get some American history type shows on cable but the mainstream media like Don says they're interested in ratings and that's basically it. And certain things are not covered because they want to keep up their credibility, still I believe major media is dying. I certainly believe that

22:19 That's all. Absolutely, it's almost counterintuitive that they want their ratings but then they don't want to cover the truth and thus they lose their credibility! Well what is the truth? There are certain subjects though Greg that just a name of them is enough to pass aspersions on someone. Taboos is one of those I'm sorry, I'm still recovering. Well Tom and I like this site you may have heard of it Greg, it was an old Japanese murder trial film 1950 and it was called the Rashomon Effect and it essentially is a study not only in

23:05 almost as an IQ test is not really a test for one's intelligence, but rather their environment. The scope of how they were raised and who were their influences and their sources for their information... And as the defense presented one side the prosecution presented on another side. And the Rashomon effect is basically, there's your opinion and there's my opinion and then here's what really happened. I guess it comes down to who is really proactively trying to determine what happened? Tom and I would certainly challenge any one of the scoffers, any one of the skeptics ever demonstrate how they have made any effort to determine what has happened

23:56 specifically regarding Roswell. Well, for sure it is a tangled web of... Don brings up a good point there the late Peter Jennings who had some credibility he was Canadian ABC I think he was on ABC yes ABC yeah he uh was putting together a show when UFO this is just before he died and he was going to cover Roswell Well, you have to cover Roswell if you're going to put together your baffo TV show. And he sent a crew down to Roswell—we went down there—to guide the crew through the production of the Roswell segment, took them out to the crash site, gave them a briefing on what had happened and Don knows this that just the look on the crews' faces and the producers'

24:51 I'm thinking this guy, what we're saying is going in one ear and out the other. He's already made up his mind or the show has and the proof was in the pudding Peter Jennings said okay regarding Roswell it's a myth next subject he didn't bring forth any supporting evidence why he concluded that Roswell was a myth and they spent four days in the field working with us refused to talk to a single witness that we offered to provide, including Dr. Edgar Mitchell who was there with us and they wouldn't even talk to him We had to insist as Tom mentioned of them going out the crash site And then they didn't use a single minute of the footage, the B-roll

25:41 that we provided. They concocted other networks that they asked us to provide for the actual premiere of the show, and as Tom said the fact that within the opening minute he used the word myth five times... That was their agenda! Yes I know that has definitely been something that has riddled the ufology community for decades but i'd say this audience is well past the denial position and uh to jump Into the book, you know one of the biggest criticisms of a conspiratorial story like Roswell is always well You couldn't keep a secret this big someone would talk and if you actually dig into it you find people do talk Maybe not carelessly in a public forum But you have many many anecdotes along the lines of oh

26:29 well, my dad told me about this before he died or he showed me a picture and said never to talk about it. Even Jesse Marcel Jr., whose dad was in the Air Force intelligence officer in charge of moving some of the material, even stopped by his house to show his son apparently and these kind of stories are all over the place so people do talk. Exactly Craig let me just quickly jump in here because you make the point that we hear to this day that they couldn't keep this a secret that it would have leaked out many years ago. Well, it has been leaking out for the past 40 years and I'm sorry people have not been listening. People and again the press have been turning a deaf ear. Now you mentioned Jess Marcel and how about his dad? Jess Marcel Sr., when he went public in 1978 and he was dying of emphysema

27:21 You didn't read about this in the Times, you didn't read about this anywhere because the only publication that even touched it was The National Enquirer. So what does that say about as far as our media even back then? You have the senior intelligence officer of the 1st Atomic Bomb Squadron coming forward on his deathbed and saying that I handled pieces of an actual flying saucer! And he was silenced And the same has been for General Thomas DuBose and General Arthur Exxon, and on and on. So that is an absolute fabrication of the idea—and not you Greg but I mean the idea that well it would have leaked out all this time. Well it has been! And the problem is they're not listening. They don't want to listen. They refuse to listen

28:14 So true. Yes, I'm trying to think back like Don says you know people talked among themselves and Edgar Mitchell told us that he first heard about the basic truths about Roswell after he walked on the moon He came back and Edgar Mitchell's from the Roswell area. He grew up in Artesia But I think he was I don't know if he was born in Roswell but Artesia is pretty close Yeah, the ranch. Yeah, I saw it at Roswell yeah all of a sudden, all these ranchers trusted him because he was an MIT scientist. He walked on the moon as an astronaut and they felt that they could tell him what they knew about Roswell. That's when he started being interested in the case. And that went on for years. I'm trying to think back—I believe it was the first statement by a participant

29:07 occurred in one of those men's magazines back in the early 70s. I don't know if it was Argosy or True, or one of those magazines—they don't make them anymore—by a woman named Lydia Sleppy She was involved in the case. She was trying to dictate a wire release for one of the news services, and the FBI cut her off cease-and-desist but that story appeared I believe around 1972 or 74 so like Don says the case has been leaking ever since and we have a colleague of ours We don't see him very often But he's one of the abduction

29:47 He's written a couple of books about abductions, but he says I don't believe in Roswell. Well why? Because they couldn't keep that secret. Well guess what! They haven't kept it secret but they use that thinking well you don't know anything and you're not going to challenge me then so... I mean just imagine as Tom was describing Dr Edgar Mitchell and his credentials. I mean, there are few in this world that have higher credentials and look what the American media did to him! He was immediately labeled as far as senile and demented and that he needed to be placed in a retirement facility... And he got a fair shake in the foreign press

30:33 But I mean, it was scandalous what they did to him. You know you're talking about an American hero, you know, American treasure for nothing more than defending Roswell and the people that he grew up with the people he knew personally his neighbors as friends And then the high-ranking officers Tom mentioned at the Pentagon that told him that this all was genuine It was authentic it was true And again, it was taboo. It was off limits. How dare you Dr Mitchell step out of bounds and actually leak out information about this? So again it's total fabrication total nonsense that people haven't been trying to present the truth about this. It's just that the skeptics are always immediately right there to smear these people and make the next person think twice about coming forward

31:30 Well said, and I mean i'm sitting right here with your latest book. 275 pages of anecdotes and plenty of stories of people talking And this one mainly focuses on the fact that This material and these alien bodies made it to Wright-Patterson which is in Ohio And this is a line in the book that I found curious where you say As a fitting tribute to Wright-Patterson's dedication to our national security The personal files of Nikola Tesla are preserved there. That's interesting, but I don't see the connection between housing Tesla's files and our national security because the rumors suggest that Tesla's work showcased energy systems and delivery methods that would have upset General Electric Westinghouse in the cartel oil men and oil control seems to have been the driving force for geo political games that hold us back more than anything. I guess I would just ask you to elaborate on that line

32:25 what your thoughts are on Tesla's papers and why keeping them locked up at Wright-Patterson speaks to its dedication to our national security. I think that was Donn's. Oh, oh, I'm sorry! Donnie there...I think it was yours It was a point that was made by former deputy commander at the base At the time that Lester Holt with NBC News we were trying to bring a film crew onto the base And it was somebody at the museum who made that point, to suggest that Wright Path had sub-levels underground levels. And they brought up the Tesla papers that everything was above board and if you wanted to find anything at Wright Path it wasn't a problem for even the lay researcher

33:20 And we just mentioned that in conjunction with the fact that Wright-Patt has a long history of keeping secrets and secret testing. You mentioned Tesla, well we could throw Thomas Edison into the mix as well who was his main competition and in many ways is Judas he betrayed him and used a lot of Tesla's own technology for his own Yes, and it also has to feel very significant that our current president's uncle is the very MIT scientist who was given full access to assessing Tesla's papers. An uncle he talks a lot about now He's launching a space force and his political opponents seem to be the ones driving The current UFO narrative And I don't know but I would definitely suspect that Tesla's work is at least relevant to the UFO question

34:11 I guess, I would ask how you guys assess that. It's very curious in this big world that this particular guy is president and he has such a connection to technological secrets that are wrapped up in the UFO data? As we know Tesla was occasionally even asked about UFOs and publicly he would always downplay the situation. And I think it was mainly because his biggest obstacle was securing government funding. And it was no different than Robert Goddard, the true father of modern rocketry who happens to be from Roswell and again if they don't secure the funding and we have to remember which is the best example would be the late Carl Sagan

34:59 the fact that you go back to Sagan's first writings on UFOs back in the late 60s, he was actually quite positive. He was a bit of an advocate. He was very open to the idea that we were being visited but how quickly they sell their souls to the devil so to speak and they get their grants, they get their government funding on their pet projects and just like that well have to essentially cooperate with the puppeteer. And as a result, they totally become part of the skeptic community and that's one of the reasons Dr. J. Elena Hynek was so genuine

35:41 for the fact that he was initially a skeptic, he was their chief debunker. They would trot him out only when they needed him to explain away a particular sighting but he was genuine! He was enough of a scientist that he realized that something was amiss, something was going on here, that all these witnesses just could not be lying and as far as whether it's the SETI program or even mentioning Sagan the fact that once the government carrot is dangled in front of them, how often they sell their souls. Totally agree! I'm up to that but they haven't taken me up on it so... Yeah Tom's up for a while. What do you think about it? 150 right now? Yes well when Don and I talk on the phone once in awhile we hear a click or two and

36:39 I always mention to Don that in case they're listening, i'm available. Yeah! I'm out of here for a couple thou... yeah yes well that's funny but to get into the meat of Roswell you write that when it comes to the things recovered from the site on top of the four dead bodies and the one that survived the crash we have four categories of wreckage can you tell the people about these wreckage categories? Yes. There were three crash sites involved in Roswell, there was what the so-called debris field site which was a site below the location where the ship exploded. The ship didn't crash it exploded in the air we believe that from a lightning strike Gregg. It was either an internal explosion or lighting strike because we have several witnesses who said well

37:33 I heard a muffled explosion during a thunder and lightning storm, which they have during that time of the year down in New Mexico. So the first site is the debris field site where all this strange small pieces of metal were found. There was something called memory metal, we call it memory metal, it's our holy grail that's what we're looking for It's metal that you can't scratch, you can't cut You can't deform it permanently in any way as light is a feather Very thin, but you can wad it up into a ball in your hand. It feels like you don't have anything in your hand open your hand and then unfurls itself

38:17 Okay. And like I said, it's indestructible and we've been trying to back engineer it ever since then there are the pieces that are thin like thin aluminum but you can't bend them you can't take a sledgehammer through them and crack them or do anything to them this sledge hammer will come back and hit you in the nose so that's a second type very stiff indestructible, can't scratch it. Then you have the memory metal The third type was something that Jesse Marcel and Marcel Sr talked about this I-beam It's shaped like a rod but on a cross section it is shaped like an eye And on that I beam were symbols

39:06 strange symbols, strange markings that we had linguists come in. They couldn't decipher it so we believe at least I do anyway that that eye beam had something to do with the propulsion of the ship sort of like in the movie The Da Vinci Code you know where they When i open the door they have this little thing insert into a key and that opens whatever they were looking for so i think yeah i be something to do with the directional or guiding the ship in some way. So that's the third type. The fourth type, well I guess actually there was two more one was the monofilament like fiber optics it sort of atom braided the fiber optics that we have today there was a lot of that and there was something that Jesse Jr talked about this resembled bakelite i have no idea what that

40:01 the purpose or what it, you know, but it resembled fake light. And I guess there was another, you know, the inner cabin or a egg-shaped escape pod of some sort continued on after the ship exploded and two beings were thrown out and met their fate on a low bluff about 2 miles east of the debris field site We call it the deep rocker body site because it was the proper who showed his mother where it was and she showed us so that's where two bodies had come down and met there here after but after the explosion, the inner cabin.

40:45 survived and carried on another trajectory for about 30 miles, 35 miles east-southeast towards Roswell. Came to rest about 32 miles north northwest of Roswell and there they found two more bodies that were dead and one that was alive but still walking around so I think that was a little more than four, but that's basically what all the records consisted of. Yes! That is a great summary and it's definitely fascinating to try to follow the chain of custody of this material and The Bodies and of course your book is about all the sagas that take this stuff to Wright-Patterson. I would ask in more recent years wouldn't these spotlight

41:35 be better put on Lockheed Martin or Boeing or Bigelow Airspace and the rest of the corporate eternals? Isn't that most likely where this stuff is now with guys like Jacques Vallee and The Invisible College, and Silicon Valley tech billionaires. Yes, of course! Just to remind your audience, government slash military doesn't manufacture anything everything is contracted out to the private sector. And as a result, through the years we've had firsthand witnesses at Battelle Institute, Grand Corporation, Hughes Aircraft, General Electric, Boeing Bureau of Standards all talking about having an opportunity to test and possibly come up with a breakthrough regarding some of the Roswell material

42:27 We had a retired base commander told us that much of the physical evidence that was housed and tested at Wright Pat, was all cleared out in the early 80's. And as he put it they had a hell of a time bringing things in and moving things out given that they were essentially in downtown Dayton When you consider the remote areas of the Southwest and the mountainous ranges that many of our military facilities have been established, it was really just being connected with the East Coast and the Pentagon that they even happened to establish a base in Dayton Ohio back during World War I for that matter. Greg, I'd like to add that we believe—at least I do—

43:17 that the UFO, let's call them artifacts. You know physical and biological not only Roswell but the UFO artifacts are now in private hands and by private hands I mean Lockheed Martin, Battelle Memorial and all the other government contractors rather than being in possession of a military so we believe that I think Don does, but i do. Yes yes yes wholeheartedly and one of the reasons being that private organizations are not subject to FOIA requests where the government entities are so that's one of the reasons...I don't say that's the entire reason but they're not subject to FOIA inquiries Tom why don't you even cite the example or the comments by uh the likes like Ben Rich for example

44:09 Yes. I don't know what the occasion was, but Ben Rich was being queried about a number of things and one of them... What about UFO's Mr. Rich? He says well they're the ones that we make and the ones that they make and they meaning someone off planet And he also added a comment on another occasion that we currently have the technology to take ET home so We've long heard and we always suspected that, specifically in the military. The old order did not pass it down to the new. Most of them took it with them and I'm talking about the knowledge what they knew to be true. Specifically regarding Roswell and UFOs in general And there's this young growing faction within the military

45:04 that wants this to come out. They desire for this to finally come out and acknowledge what they've been observing and experiencing for all these decades, but they don't have access, they don't have clearance. And that's where Tom and I—and he is correct—we believe that because... and it's where Eisenhower is warning the country about the military-industrial complex essentially running things And this would be the private corporations that they relied on for all these military contracts, providing them with all their armory and weaponry. And they essentially took over. They right now control as far as the physical evidence of what we would classify as reality at the UFO phenomenon. Yes great summary I'm very much on that page in terms

45:58 who had it and who's kept control of it. And that kind of brings a full circle to make me wonder, is the reverse engineering maybe complete enough now that they can use this stuff for a higher agenda? That's why its finally in the mainstream media, in the CIA controlled press because there's some other agenda Behind there that maybe we don't even understand yet some kind of complex military gamesmanship. But I wonder if that's any indication as to how far they've gotten the fact that now of all times it's actually out there in the media well you know great. Don and i, we don't usually

46:43 talk about these things. We're so focused on Roswell, it's labor-intensive over this last quarter century. We don't speculate where they're from or why they are here—those sorts of things. It is difficult for me because we've never talked about these things but If you're talking about back engineering, we know that that happened. We can relate to that and something like a CIA involvement in that...we just haven't discussed those things but we do know they tried to re-engineer this stuff And the only one that I subscribe to because you know, say oh transistors came from Roswell. The other thing the only thing that's come up but then there was enough substantiated documentation that came out that I said okay well now I believe it was traceable back to Roswell and that's the memory metal they wanted to find out how they could re-engineer this light pliable

47:47 metal, let's call it metal that was indestructible. And they sent it to Battelle Memorial Institute after the crash and we have the documentation from the project that they tried different combinations of elements to try to reproduce this and they came up with something called Nitinol. It was a amalgam of nickel and titanium And not only that, but the Battelle Memorial Institute didn't want to have their logo associated with UFOs. So they laundered it through the Naval Ordnance Lab down in Washington or Maryland and then the Naval Ordinance Lab

48:29 had a press conference that they had discovered a new amalgam called Nitinol. The Ni stands for nickel, the Ti stands for titanium and the Nol stands for the Naval Ordnance Lab. Greg you can go online and buy Nitinol by this sheet, by the roll, by the coil, you name it it's available but that has its origins I believe because Because it's well documented that project back with the Roswell crash. Yes, Nitinol is a very exciting element could definitely speak to that reverse engineering and it is interesting that you mentioned the Naval Ordnance Lab as part of its

49:13 abbreviation and we talked about the gamesmanship between different groups. It's like this again is a Navy thing that's kind of interesting, right? See one thing that UFO researchers have contemplated speculated in the discuss for many years Is that we have focused too much on the Air Force now granted project sign project grudge product blue book the most famous of the three They were the ones releasing, disclosing their efforts to come up with a resolution to the mystery behind the UFOs. But you know, the Air Force is very limited in their global scope, their global surveillance aside from spy planes but the Navy is able to truly draw intelligence information from many more sources

50:06 much more territory. I think that's why many of us have felt that it was the Navy, and that's why naval intelligence has really had a much greater influence on world affairs than the Air Force ever has. Yes, I think that you're right. We gotta look at all the branches and dig up all the secrets. And...I am curious about the wider scope of UFO research and even crashed crafts You mention in the book that one your witnesses was told by Warner Von Braun That there had been at least three crashes recovered And as you said, you're hyper-focused on Roswell. I guess I'm curious because it seems like we have a lot of other cases worth looking into that just didn't have a press release We know the Roswell story and we have about as much info into the cases we can get More information just sort of confirms what we know Do you think you might be missing the forest by only studying one tree?

51:07 Well, for myself I used to be interested in the UFO panoply, the broader picture. But when I read the 1980 book by Moore and Berlitz, The Roswell Incident, for me, I think Don's more interested in other things than I am, UFO speaking but for me it affected me so much that all of the other UFO cases just disappeared for me And I was only interested in this one case because it wasn't lights in the sky. Oh, I saw a light up there did a right angle oh my goodness what about what could that be Mr. Carey? You know you get tired of that stuff but the Roswell case had nuts and bolts craft that crashed not a light in the sky but a nuts and bolts craft

51:58 It had wreckage, it had bodies on it. Little three and a half to four foot tall bodies with big heads and there was the government cover up and threats ahead everything that a mystery thriller head at all the other UFO phenomena just Greg I'm sorry but it doesn't interest me You'll call this a labor of love. It certainly was the labor of extreme interest for me to be on this one case since 1991, Don was on for a little longer but this is... For me I don't know if you remember the movie The Verdict that starred Paul Newman where he was just over-the-hill lawyer and got this paraplegic case and his assistant there said he played a character's name as Frank Alvin. He said

52:50 you've got to take their offer. It was an offer to settle the case." He said, no, this is the case. This is the only case and that's the way I look at it. And when you ask me things about the CIA, there are things that I just don't see. But yet it is true that The Right Cat Book we make reference to a lot of the testimony regarding other alleged crashes through the 50s into the 60s and certainly much emphasis on the late Leonard Stringfield's files, which in my case I'm personally very disappointed because for having been with The Center for UFO Studies we were promised to acquire his files at the time of his passing. Because before the first time we would have had all the names and places that he had kept confidential up to that time

53:46 And I love the chase. I love as far as solidifying Roswell by even incorporating other cases, suggesting that if one happened then others most likely happen as well in reference to UFO crashes and recoveries. Fair! I mean, I definitely respect the dedication you guys have had to uncovering this case. Here's another thing Frank Suppose, you know in 1997 they had that big brouhaha. You know it's the 50th anniversary of the Roswell incident? Suppose all the investigators went home at that point. That's what we would have. We would have this big question oh my goodness did it happen or didn't happen well Don and I have spent the rest since 1997 as a team to conduct a proactive investigation of Roswell

54:41 Like I said, it's labor intensive. We have interviewed over 600 witnesses that we have really nailed this case—this is what makes me mad! We have nailed this case with over 600 witnesses and each one knows just a little bit of the story and it's been our job to put the little bits together to make a whole picture here. If we hadn't done that Roswell would be just another, oh well that was a case you know that they thought this and nothing has happened since. Well I'm sorry we moved the football across the goal line in my view and it took a lot of work to do that." You know we've had five archaeological digs at the crash site

55:25 the debris field. Yes, we have verified that from multiple first and second hand witnesses down to what was where and where a gouge was in the outer perimeter and how far the debris extended and who found what were... And no one else can say that about any other case They're trying to establish that something happened at all. In our case, it's a matter of historic fact that something crashed left in the field of sizable proportions and here we are where even the Air Force concurs that were at the right site because they obviously need a Project Mogul crash location but

56:04 You know, that's why I think so many of our colleagues are even jealous and at times they personally attack us because Tom likes to say that Roswell takes all the air out of the room when it is discussed. Especially in conferences and private discussion because it is a matter of historic fact. The others are just trying to prove something happened at all. Well, I respect your opinion for sure and I wanted to ask a little more about Wright-Patterson itself. This major base in Ohio you write if the Pentagon is considered the brains of the Air Force then Wright-Patterson is certainly its heart well We all hear the wreckage and alien bodies were transported to Area 51 But pieces went all over it's at Fort Worth to Lockheed Martin and the deep corporate Nexus Why is it so significant that a lot of this stuff?

56:55 went to write Patterson, so much so that this is your second book on this element of the story. Well, you know the history of Wright-Patterson will make your head explode. It's just it's gone through so many different name changes, you know, Cook Field and all that we won't get into that my eyes glaze over just on that history but I like to pick it up during World War II when it was Wright Field and Patterson Field at At Wrightfield, you know this is where all of the captured enemy aircraft went for analysis. They were back engineering

57:33 And they did that in Hangar 23, which became by popular nomenclature the Hanger 18. All of the captured Axis fighter planes and what have you went there to be taken apart to see what made them tick and try to improve upon what they analyzed in our own fighter craft that would defeat them. So the back engineering capability was at right field Also, they had an advanced aeromedical facility for biological material. So beyond its importance were intelligence—the intelligence focus was at Wright-Patterson so it's only natural that something of a foreign nature

58:21 went to Wright-Patterson because they already were set up to handle analysis and back engineering, what have you. So that's why it went to Wright-Patterson but like Don said earlier the town of Dayton built right around the base when you're testing new aircraft, which is what they did there. You can have an accident and a lot of people would be killed." In the early 1950s when they were starting to think about spy planes most notably the U-2 and later on the SR-71 Blackbird, they wanted their more remote facility which became Area 51 in

59:06 Northwest of Nevada, but it all started at Wright-Patterson in Dayton Ohio where all those Air Force functions took place. You know Grace a lot of our colleagues even suggest that Roswell ended at Roswell or that it ended with the balloon press conference at Fort Worth, Texas with General Ramey. But it is also a historic fact that the wreckage from Roswell went to Wright-Patterson. Even the Pentagon announced that at the time and in heaven's name why would you need to test rubber foil wood string and tape to see what made it

59:54 fly as they would suggest the mogul balloon went to Wright Field for testing back at that time. And the irony that the very first UFO project and then the two subsequent originated were headquartered at Wright-Patterson, Project Sign, Grudge and Blue Book were all headquartered at Wright-Patterson And they had the FTD, the Foreign Technology Division is this specific one. And the foreign technology they were originally concerned with was like Messerschmitts that Don flew and

1:00:29 you know, Mitsubishis and MiGs and Russian aircraft. So that's what the original intent was but when they got something like really foreign from off the planet that's where they sent it because they were the only ones set up to handle something like that. Hmm fair enough yes it's definitely an important chapter of our history I know we might never get the full story, but we have enough to feel confident that the basic shape of Roswell has some definite truth to it. What drives you guys to keep plugging away here? As you note a lot of the witnesses are dead now. The further up the timeline you get, the more efficient the quarantine seems to be. You've obviously confirmed the story through all these investigative elements what more are you looking for? What would really complete this journey for you guys?

1:01:19 A simple, Greg, a piece of physical evidence would top it off. And as we have had many attorneys — we've even had two judges personally tell us that we could take this into any court of law and win hands down because keeping in mind the government is presently up to four official explanations and we're the ones who have all the witnesses regarding our definition as to what happened back in 1947. So who would win? I mean, we have to accept that all of history is based on personal observation, personal accounts people are placed on death row for nothing more than being able to demonstrate that they have the preponderance of eyewitness testimony and that is precisely where we stand with Roswell. The fact that we have all the witnesses may have none

1:02:20 And all they can say is, but you can't prove it. But unlike all the other UFO cases, we could point the finger right back at them and say but you have the proof. You've been hiding it all these years and that's why the likes of the late Senator Barry Goldwater and late Congressman Stephen Schiff and even former presidents Clinton and Carter, former governor of New Mexico Bill Richardson could all be on this program right now and all lamenting the fact that they couldn't get the truth about Roswell either! So then we're coming back to the power brokers, the ones who are actually running things. And then we've come full circle and we're saying they also control the truth about the UFO phenomena and then vis-a-vis Roswell

1:03:06 Mmm. Well cheers to that totally agree and like so many things we talked about on this show We have the numbers we have a lot of data They love to dismiss but you just can't break through the system for that very reason You just mentioned, so very cool well I hope you guys find that pot of gold at the end of the end of the rainbow I've got a lot of respect for the dedication you both have thanks for sharing your knowledge before we really go tell people oh About the book about the other books anything else you got working on or the website even that you guys share Well, we have the current book came out a few weeks ago. We have another book coming out this summer or early fall called it's A Coffee Table type of book called Roswell The Chronological Pictorial were really excited about that it tells the story of Roswell start to finish in pictures that we've accumulated over the quarter century that we've been working on the case and next year

1:04:04 The book next year will be out in June, we believe called Roswell Case Closed. That talks about most of the witnesses 99 percent are gone now so we put our final book together and it will be out early summer called Roswell Case Closed. So that's what we have when the immediate horizon or two books that will be coming out besides the one we discussed today Very cool. Well, thanks for sharing your knowledge with us you guys definitely know a lot and keep plugging away! Thanks for your time. Thank you Greg. Sweet ladies of Lynchfield dear listeners July wrapping up nicely for us had to pay homage to the Roswell incident after 72 years

1:04:59 Well, I didn't have to but New Page sent the book out to me and i kind of held on to it for a while. I wasn't sure if we were gonna fit this in or not but I thought If I really brought my A-game and asked some deep and challenging questions then we might end up with something better than another Roswell 101 show And you can be the judge of that! I know I handled this interview a bit differently than usual But I thought it was warranted given everything that's going on I mean, it's pretty common over the course of the two-hour interviews for me to save room for some questions that extrapolate pretty far out from the base that is laid by the actual work of the guest or guests. And i respect Tom and Don a lot what they do is not easy It's meticulous and detailed and we're all on the same side here

1:05:55 but I struggle with how a person can be fascinated with only the Roswell incident and have no interest in the wider scope of the UFO mystery. Even just the military side of it, to me context matters and anything that surrounds the Roswell Incident should matter if Warner Von Braun said there were two other crashes which i took to mean disconnected crashes But even if he didn't say it, there are others. I don't get how they could register a zero on the excitement scale but Roswell is hidden in the red zone It doesn't make sense to me but it doesn't have to make sense to me Everybody can be interested in whatever they want to be interested in

1:06:43 And maybe we need this sort of hyper-focus from at least a few people. Their dedication is obviously commendable, and this book does add several layers to the credibility cake—it's a thick cake at this point—but we're in an era where we are losing people who even know a guy who knows a guy who saw something back in 1947 so I am glad Tom & Don are keeping it on the record adding to the history But if you have 50 witnesses and anecdotes that confirm most of the major details of something, do you need 50 more? Is there a point where we say okay this is more or less confirmed now let's see what it means. Let's push on this a bit further because right now we're dealing with a disclosure rollout on major networks with a lot of the talking heads finally handed their talking points on this subject and it's concerning

1:07:41 Or it should be. Harry Reid, CIA intelligence officers? I suggest you watch this stuff with a very skeptical eye and i guess when this stuff started to be coordinated across the New York Times the Wall Street Journal CNN Fox and MSNBC...I started to think okay maybe it's time to put the joking aside for a minute This isn't just some silly asshole from a pop punk band These are dangerous people trying to control a narrative with a very narrow frame that ultimately could be used to let the war machine do its thing. Or at least, to deceive the public into thinking that the UFO situation is as simple as mechanical crafts from hostile invaders We know better than that

1:08:30 We know it's a much richer and deeper and long-term phenomenon relating to much more than the military industrial complex. And we need to be just a bit on guard, I think. People dealing with this sort of UFO research have to be super careful right now just with what they're putting out there and signing off on and who they're getting in bed with Obviously, speculation is a major ingredient in the THC recipe. A lot of things we want to know are off the table hidden behind the curtain so you gotta guess! But when it starts to relate...to real operations I tighten up a little It's not just for fun anymore ya know? Maybe that's why todays guests don't wanna comment outside their Roswell focus. I respect that but i just dont think anything makes total sense in isolation

1:09:29 It's alright, but there are nuances in the book that they've produced that I think are really interesting despite being a person already familiar with the Roswell case like we all are. So if you are interested in that case overall and The Wright-Patterson Connection it's a very valuable book on an important saga in our history. I thank them for their contribution It's easy to criticize, but I think if a lot of people compared their own contribution before criticizing they wouldn't get very far. But i do expect the listeners who got through this interview to see a lot of little subtleties that were worth the price of admission but again that's for you to decide

1:10:16 And of course, Tom and Don both stuck around for a second hour if you only heard the first free hour. You gotta consider becoming a Plus member and getting the full two-hour interviews! In this one we talked about Tom and Don's actual real world visits to The Crash Site and some of the readings they got... Space travel and quantum physics... Tom and Don's thoughts on Philip Corso and Bob Lazar elements of disinformation in the Roswell research, and a lot of other stuff. So dive in! The water is fine and we have a very deep archive for you to find all sorts of great stuff to get into but we are coming in hot at the zero hour on the 31st of the month that's gonna do it for me guys I've done my part your move disclosure rollout directors metamaterial manipulators and area 51 stormers

1:11:13 Your. Fucking. Mood. Woke up this morning with light in my eye and then realized it was dark outside It was like coming down from the sky No, who? Must be those strangers that come every night

1:11:52 Whose saucers shaped like put people uptight Leave blue-green footprints that glow in the dark I hope they get home Hey, Mr. Spaceman Won't you please take me along? Don't do anything wrong Hey, Mr. Space

1:12:35 Won't you please take me along the high side? Woke up this morning, was feeling quite weird I had flies in my beard My toothpaste was smeared I opened my window they'd written my name So long, we'll see you again Hey Mr. Spaceman Won't you please take me along? Don't do anything wrong Hey Spaceman Won't you please take me along The highest side Mr. Spaceman

1:13:47 Won't you please take me along? I won't do anything wrong Hey, Mr. Space Won't you please take me along the high side Please take me along the high side