THC 28: Philip Coppens | The Ancient Alien Question

00:04 In the 1930s, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed a nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the Fireside Chats. His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times but we're far from 1930 and I deal with a different kind of fire For a new era of worldly frustration We offer a fresh conversation! I'm Greg Carlwood These are the Higher Side Chats. No it's not Cake Boss Buddy or Bill Nye the Science Guy but a regular on my favorite TV show and I'm talking about Ancient Aliens. Better yet, I'm talking about Philip Kopins goddammit! Author of nine books with titles like 2012 Science or Fiction? Killing Kennedy and of course the reason for this season The Ancient Alien Question His resume is more diverse than the cast of Glee And I couldn't be more excited about The Next Hour in My Life Philip Kopins how you doing? I'm doing great how are you

01:07 I'm great. I'm super psyched to have you here, wow man thanks again for doing it! Let's start with the easy stuff... It looks like season 5 of Ancient Aliens is a go man congrats on that Thank you So are people stopping at your grocery store breaking out new theories in the checkout line? It hasn't gotten down to the grocery store and I have the privilege of spending my life in various countries, UK, France and Los Angeles. And it has to be said that the funniest sequence of events actually happened in Las Vegas where clearly ancient aliens is popular when

01:49 At one point we had breakfast in one of the hotels and were walking through the casino floor to get a taxi. And one of those guys with earpieces in their ears obviously came up to us and said like, sir this is something of strange question but are you guy who's on TV? So it turned out that he was one of security guys who was interested and then we got into And then when we were dropped off at our hotel, the taxi driver said like you're the guy from Ancient Aliens. So within 10 minutes or so two people do it. It seems to be apparently mostly the voice which identifies people that I'm the guy from Ancient Aliens

02:33 But yeah, it does come with a bit of street recognition because it's an extremely popular show. At the end of season 1 and 2 was estimated that across the world after one episode about 100 million people had seen episodes throughout its various cycles but that figure is really probably gonna go up with 3 & 4 as that makes its way around the world because Specifically in America, season 3 was extremely popular and the early start of season 4 as well. But what I like about it is that it keeps people or starts people to talk and think

03:12 very young children to two very old people who really are interested and trying to do stuff with ancient aliens. And that's great, you know, to see that your part of something which really is kind like bringing about I wouldn't say a revolution in television but definitely something which moves away from the traditional Expert A says something and expert B says something completely the opposite. And the viewer kind of goes like, okay so what about us? That is I think what Ancient Aliens does it just put the viewer central and connects it like okay here's the evidence now it's up to you

03:55 Believe or accept that this is convincing enough for Satan. Yeah I'm not convinced yet and that is that is you know far more interesting from a viewer's perspective than traditional side A says something inside B says something completely opposite it leaves viewers confused because the way side A and B is quite often talking about It is completely You know so diverse that no viewer can actually make up their mind at the end, but yeah, it's It's something which I think is a great contributing factor to the success of Ancient Aliens. I love the book Ancient Alien Questions, which you know...I just finished reading and i'll be honest. I thought it was going to be a long detailed account of all the stone monuments and ancient sites from this show but really its incredibly diverse in cover so many sides of coin from David Icke's reptilian agenda to the Coral Castle It really is a great read Well thank you! I mean what I...TV is obviously a visual medium

04:59 It also is defined by the format, which is even in season one or season two. There was like 20 minutes or 30 minutes per subject, now it's 12 minutes per subject and 4 subjects per episode. And that's it! So we have... whenever in each year the producers ask for what would you like to see covered? What is kind of like...? I send certain stuff Quite often it comes back like, yeah we would really like to cover this but there is no footage of this. So for television that's kind of a no-go zone so obviously for a book I'm not limited whether there is 10 minutes of footage available or something or for something. So I was able to go into things like The Drop A Tribe in China and some other things about China which have no footage

05:57 Just a few photographs and even aspects of the crystal skulls can be discussed in a way that again you're not tied to visual footage. Way more in depth? Yeah, and then obviously I'm one of the people who appears on Ancient Aliens, but it is a TV show and the format of the show is that really my opinion counts as much or as little as anybody else's. There are certain cases We're being interviewed and say what do you know about this? What do you think about this? Have you got additional evidence about this and we are talking on camera. And kind of like certain stuff gets retained, other things end up on the cutting floor but there is no such thing as saying what is the best evidence or

06:50 or what you think the best evidence is. Everything is treated of equal importance within those 12-minute segments, so the book allows you to create a landscape which is less flat than that and also to go beyond it and also to weave it in you know, an episode of Ancient Aliens will say okay this week we tackle whatever. I can kind of go in the book and make a chapter as long as i want so to speak covering three weeks of what did we take on television to do So that is another liberty

07:27 And then at the final bit, I didn't want to be preaching. I wanted to present an overview and also a bit of kind like where are we? How is it that Eric van Denecke in 1968 posed this question? Why don't we have an answer? Why is science not to a point where we are able to answer this question? As the TV show says ancient alien theorists I'm not able to come up with a convincing argument and I can't point out in the book as to why that is and how it has come about. And suggest maybe a way forward which might break a bit of this paradigm, there are some signs that some people in some corners of the academic world begin to realize

08:16 need for a new wave of kind of like approaching this but it's gonna take an awful long time for them to really come around to that. And then also what I don't like about people in general is the fact that Certain people just keep putting the burden of evidence, the level of proof required ever higher. Like you can answer every question they have but they will come up with another one just so that they don't have to accept kind of like what the topic of debate was. Yeah, aliens. Or they'll say that's all perfectly true but what if it weren't aliens? What if there were time travelers from the future and that is my sign off point over here and that's your theory so let's start debating your theory now!

09:06 Well, it's a damn fine point that you make about the tendency for skeptics to keep raising the bar for evidence. And it's funny and ironic your book sort of had the opposite effect from me in that I have been convinced but a couple talking points I've been using to support the theory you dismiss as essentially bullshit hoaxes And these two points I'm referring to are the insanely popular Zacharias Stichen translations that are apparently very inaccurate, and the fact that the man who spread the mystery of the Dogon tribe's advanced star knowledge seems to have sensationalized what they really told him. So I've promptly removed these arguments from my Rolodex but let me have you tell people why they should probably stop using these two popular talking points in their arguments as well

09:49 Well, I mean the Dogon thing is something which was of interest for a while. This tribe definitely is very interesting and their Star-Lore is extremely interesting But basically the basic thing is this, this mysterious star which Robert Temple then identifies as Sirius B. You know it's a star which is invisible to the naked eye and the Dogon make it very clear that the star is visible to the naked eye but very difficult visible and the very difficult visibility is because it is close to the horizon And therefore its very hard to see

10:30 because you've got the glare of the earth and various other things. That is the reason why this star is hard to see. And Temple, who I otherwise respect but in this case completely disagree with basically makes it into a star which is invisible to the naked eye and then kind of says like well its invisible so how did they see it? They must have had some form of high technology They say that it is visible. So if you're identifying a star which is invisible, It's probably not that star and there are other aspects to this but that's kind of like in a 30 second synopsis of the argument against the Dogon thing The thing about Sitchin is that Sitchin has been something of a sleeping monster

11:22 The fact that Sitchin was wrong, the fact that Sitchin was a person who probably sort of invented an awful lot of his things. Was well known within the ancient astronaut field Whenever people were commenting or asking questions kind like you know what do you think of Zacharias Sitchin? There was quite often kinda like silence or somebody trying to sidestep the issue and At the same time we have people who are absolutely convinced of what he's saying. The problem is this, it's twofold One, it starts with a very simple thing

12:03 He believes, Sitchin believes that he was able to correctly translate certain words which in his opinion every other Sumerian expert had completely mistranslated. The most famous word was Mu which he basically said was spaceship starship something from here into outer space when the experts asked him where do you get this from? On what do you base this He, for a period of about 30 years remained completely silent and never deigned himself to reply to any of these people. That is not the problem. The problem is that after awhile they began to get upset with this man who basically refused... It's kind like the guy who constantly calling you stupid and wrong

12:54 But please tell us why we are. And he kind of keeps saying, because you're stupid and you're wrong! After a while you begin to think like okay but why? You can't just stonewall Jackson everybody. No and so it came to the point that basically they said okay enough is enough... ...and they asked him another question. They basically said okay so you're telling us that we've mistranslated Ancient Sumerian but Mr. Sitchin We know and we use a Sumerian lexicon which is still extant. It sits on the wall, and on that wall we read in ancient Sumerian Mu. And they define this as blah-blah-blah you know I mean not going to do the entire explanation but basically sky or heaven

13:43 So you're actually saying, Mr. Sitchin that the ancient Sumerians said that the word Mu meant spaceship but then they write on a wall that it means heaven or sky How could you explain that difference about why the ancient Sumerians would define a word twice completely differently? To which Sitchin for the next 20 years didn't say anything about. I mean there are several examples of this but like really what hit me extremely the wrong way is that, I was looking for the best evidence

14:22 an ancient alien presence and or intervention in our human history. And one of the things which people have pushed forward, and Sitchin used in some of his books was the fact that it is a desert in between Israel and Egypt there are tiny glass beads where you can really see that sand has been exposed to very high temperature whereby the sand turned into glass And he in, I think 1989-1991 wrote a book which basically updated some of his things and he said like oh by the way there is this professor... There is this scientific report now which basically says that they have looked into these beads and the scientific paper says that there are no known means how these glass bead could have been created. So

15:15 As a result of that, I would say that if everything else has been taken out of the equation The only thing which still remains is the fact this is indeed evidence of an ancient atomic warfare At which moment in time, I kind of thought okay. Now he wrote this before Google And he hardly ever footnoted or sourced something. Now I'm not one of those people who believes that you have to source everything but sometimes a big claim like this, you really wanna stir your readers to this evidence In the time of Google, really all you have to do is put in certain keywords like Sinai Desert, Egypt Glass Beads and kind of like Google starts putting out things. And the top ten was a paper which actually was freely available on the internet I downloaded it started reading this synopsis

16:15 And basically I realized that this was what Sitchin was talking about. Went back to the Sitchin book, saw that he had actually listed this article in his bibliography so clearly it was the one he was referring to and I read the synopsis and find that Sitchin has this completely wrong The scientific paper says the glass beads in the Sinai desert come from a volcanic eruption The only doubt which remained within the group of people who had done this analysis, they had even identified which volcano it was. It's Santorini! The only thing they hadn't been able to identify so far was which eruption because there were three relatively quick behind each other eruptions of this volcano and they couldn't tell at that moment in time from which specific eruption of those three it had originated

17:12 which Sitchin had made into they don't know what the origins of these glass beads are. No, the scientific paper in its synopsis clearly states a volcanic eruption namely Terra also known as Santorini Mediterranean Sea. Now, you know there are only two possibilities here either Sitchin can't read and he's stupid or he basically, you know read it and faked his conclusion because he wanted to suit it You know I will give everybody the benefit of that I can prove the second aspect but other people are definitely

17:53 you know, as a result of the Ancient Alien question I actually was asked to write a foreword for another book. And that person basically had another exposition of kind like what Sitchin had been misconstruing to get to certain point which he wanted to make The Drogon example and Sitchin are definitely not the best evidences. The best evidence is really little stories which hardly anybody has spoken of... Well, I was going to say one of my favorites is the Dropa in the stone discs. I think that's a fascinating story there so many weird little things about the discs tell us about that one? Well absolutely you know it's an amazing story its basically

18:39 About eight decades ago, there was an expedition into the Chinese heartland. Small beings were discovered in a cave next to them were stories sorry where discs which had inscriptions now finding these discs which are so-called by discs next to people who are buried inside of caves is nothing spectacular What was spectacular about it, was that these creatures which were lying there were sort of human and weren't. In the sense that they were human but they didn't look like you or I They where small their forehead was extremely thick Their joints were kind of like weird And it was also clear that this wasn't one but a group of people So nothing was heard for little while and then in 1962

19:34 There basically was a story which said that the Chinese professor had been able to identify the writing and had been able to translate it. And the translation basically said that people who were buried there were descendants from group of beings who has crash landed in that general vicinity several thousand years before, and this explained why they looked so weird. The story was reported in number newspapers, including in Germany in 1962. And then in 1970s Guy decides to use this as material for a book which is going to be fiction but which he decides in his ingenuity

20:17 He will label non-fiction so that people will buy this kind of fiction. So he does it, the book sells relatively okay by no means was a bestseller and he then says oh I made it up! It was a device which I used to lure you into my world of fiction by saying it was non-fiction. Whereby the entire community, both skeptics and various other people said like oh so there's no truth to this because everything about this thing... The book was called Sun Gods in Exile It is all invented he all invented in 1978. No he didn't! He said that he read newspaper reports from the 1960s

21:02 And then there was an entire debate that somehow the hoax would have started in 1966. Researchers keep digging, they have now found that in 1962 as happened this person... The international media did report on it German research called Hartwig Hausdorff has found German newspapers from 1962 clearly showing that you know this story was in there for a long period of time It's kind of people are so sometimes weird. Like they see a name of the guy and they kinda go, oh well this can't be real Chinese professor because he doesn't have Chinese name

21:46 Dumb argument. Have you ever heard of people from a different country? Exactly! In a kind of, like in a country... And as it turns out this guy was Japanese rather than Chinese So all these things kinda like you know but basically at the core is that in the 1970s are the same discs were photographed in a museum by I think an Austrian tourist and then in 1995 sorry, in 94 Hartwig Hausdorff was one of the first tour operators who kind of began to explore China from a perspective from a tour point-of-view. And he loved all these things and was into it so he made sure that when he was in China and when he was speaking to these museums about getting westerners there

22:37 As soon as that was done, his last question of the session would be By the way! In the 1970s I saw this thing in a book about these discs. In your museum do you still have them? And so this is how he began to find out that the fate of these discs they had disappeared but pretty much most of the story was interesting Now the most interesting thing is something which has happened a few years ago, which is that the Chinese authorities tried to map all the people of China and God knows there are an awful lot of them. Tons! And what was happening was that in a region there were groups of people who looked very weird and they obviously became part of census

23:25 And the region is pretty much, whereas these disks were found in caves in the mountains. If you were to go from that area down to the valley or flatlands that's like an area where these weird people were found and they looked exactly like those who had been found on highlands So, they realized it last few decades from 1940 when some photographs of this were taken. Photographs are in my book until recent times, the people or at least some of the people have left the highlands and are now living in the lowlands. Their features were brought to the attention of Chinese experts who tried to explain it away they basically said that these people had been exposed to lead and that the genetic mutations were due to lead poisoning which other people in China

24:17 basically said that lead poisoning kills, lead poisoning doesn't create genetic mutations. So you know that's where it sits its up to the Chinese authorities to do something there but its sits in a very interesting place and sense that we know that there are people who look extremely weird living in China and they have history of their own which basically says that day came from the stars now they might be wrong But at least we're in a position to say, you know these people believe that and oh my they look weird. They look very weird Has anyone tried to get a DNA test on one? Like this could be the evidence This could be the smoking gun sitting right over there

25:04 Absolutely. Now, you know the position obviously is and this is what I say in the book as well we're at a moment where at point in time where to prove certain things We need active cooperation of scientists and or governments If I or any other anybody else who would try to prove for disprove this theory were to go into China And they would say, why do you want to go and meet these people? Why do you want have their blood. You either tell the truth or lie If you tell the truth and say it's because I want to find out whether they are of mixed alien origins Right now any government including Chinese will say yeah maybe but not So no authorization to that

25:52 If you lie, and you say I like these people. We wouldn't probably say oppressed because if that were the case then we probably wouldn't get in either but some kind of humanitarian thing. We want to have some DNA thing because we want end their suffering. We want find out why they were so mutated At that moment if time do the analysis and it comes up with a fact they might be of mixed human extraterrestrial origin all scientists will say But you went in under full pretenses. So, how do we know that you are not lying about the results? It's lose-lose until they are willing to engage or forced to engage

26:40 We are in a lose-lose situation. And obviously, they love saying this well there is no evidence for anything to do with extraterrestrial beings right now or in the past and it's like no and there's reason why that is not because you're not helping. If you refuse to do any research if he refused to help those who are doing research There's never going to be any evidence and they know it but it's again they play Well, I mean that behavior on the part of governments kind of leads me to a question. You've clearly researched the idea of the grand conspiracy according to David Icke or William Brimley but how much do you entertain as a real possibility and what just seems like too far of a stretch? Because the way governments act they're kind of validating it. Governments hide things on a daily basis

27:30 And most politicians, I grew up in Belgium and for the sins of my ancestors. I was raised in a family of politicians and they were all quite often from different parties which meant that whoever was in power, some member was close to it anyway at one point a party had not been in power for about 20 years And this meant that an entire new generation of politicians who came into power, they had never been. They were minister of this and secretary of that... ...and they had never been around or had these positions themselves. All of a sudden they were leading this country. Not this country but Belgium. After few months said like every day we have to cover up things

28:25 for reasons which don't make sense to us. Most of it is, you know... not important! But it involves weird things in like, you know like why are we covering up the fact that and I'm making one up here. That the immigration figures or that this guy went through there and its' like oh well you have to realize that is because of this thing. And he kind of said I hate it! I hate doing this! It's not why was elected But it is within governments. Governments cover up and most of the time they cover up because whenever something goes wrong, somebody from the public says why did this go wrong? It's traced back to a person in government and they don't want that to do so This is primarily why cover-ups happen Now there are other examples and recent one is this In 1992 Lawrence Rockefeller decided

29:24 the new president who in the end turned out to be Clinton but when he decided to brief the new president, he had no idea who it was going to be. Not officially and he asked a person, C.B Scott Jones to get him a theorial which would be good briefing document for the president and so Clinton walks into office and few days weeks later gets presented on a kind of private party which Rockefeller organizes but with his briefing document which basically says dear Mr. Clinton You are not in power. There are forces behind you who have hidden the truth of this, this and this away from you

30:07 which basically disempowered him when it came to these things. Carter had a different attitude, he said I'm going to find out the truth about UFOs and there was string in 1970's of Senate hearings, congressional committees and all that stuff to find out about death Kennedy, Amkyl Chumayin experiments all these things were happening in the 1970's Some of them made progress, some of them didn't go anywhere or most of them didn't go anywhere near as far as where they should have gone. But they went somewhere and evidence was uncovered that something was happening It was just that these congressional committees in hearing things were not willing to send people to jail Or things like that They were just kind of going we'll expose all of these things And as a result of that it will never happen again

31:04 And that was kind of like their attitude. It's probably fall short of what they were supposed to be doing, but at least it did something. But Clinton and various people even in the early days of Obama administration there were some Clintonites in there and people who are absolutely convinced that the X-Files were real But they also believed that they were not pulling the strings, that there were forces behind them who were doing these things for them. And there is no evidence for this but it disempowered these people and you know that is a sad thing when a president thinks or is briefed by people who mean well but actually end up doing an awful lot of damage

31:50 The briefing of a new president who's green behind his ears should not be Mr. President, there is a secret out there and he will never find the secret because that president then will go like okay I'm glad I know and that is the problem and that is something which I hate about the conspiracy field in general it disempowers you basically says you can't do anything about this tomorrow go into Washington and you can try to change it but it won't matter because there are forces out there. They are out there and its so disempowering, its not true Egypt has proven that you know you can bring about very quick change through a few people who going to sit peacefully

32:42 The Belgian revolution in 1830 happened when about 500 people went to a play and said enough of this Dutch dominance, we want to be free. The 250 people out of that party ran out into the streets of Brussels and said you know two words go away By morning, pretty much Belgium was independent. During the Iraq invasion 2 million people walked the streets of London in protest if any of those two million people had decided actually we can occupy this London situation and Tony Blair will be no more

33:30 It would have been a revolution. But you see, right now the people are still afraid of the people in power and the conspiracy theorists maintain that balance however much David Icke says You need to break free! You need to start doing this thing It's like, no you're not telling them that. You know? You're making them afraid and you're making sure they will stay in their corner. Yeah... I mean those are fair points Phil but you could also just say we've won a few battles though i do agree that the conspiracy angle has a tendency to maybe quell rebellious actions because it seems pointless to go up against such a dominant enemy there is also the problem with the savior psychology

34:15 The idea that the good guys got my back, I mean i'm being screwed but I just have to wait it out because they're working for me on that uh covert power struggle against the elite behind the scenes and man I hope they win. And to bring this bitch back around in same psychology can cripple the drive to study the mysteries of our origins and the ancient alien question by saying well I hate the global elite and they're fucking up my life but they got the wheel and at least they know the real story I mean even if it's classified and hidden from the public at least they know our history, and i'll take comfort in that. It's just a mystery to me And a scarier realization honestly might be that nobody knows and that it's all been lost

34:54 Exactly, you know I mean we were having this debate earlier today and like when you have children they need to know certain things. One that father Christmas comes on December 25th that there will be cereal and milk in the morning and that you will pick them up at school at whatever time your school finishes those are kind of like the things a child needs it needs to know certain things reason why so many people are religious even though they don't really kind of like feel that religion is all that nice or that religion is kind of there, it's just some kind of shape or formal framework for their belief system. People – I mean like

35:46 I'm absolutely in awe and in love with what Jesus Christ wrote. But, I wouldn't call myself a Christian because I don't go to church. I was raised as a Catholic but basically I pretty much feel abhorred by anything they do and stand for. And so am I a Christian in faith, it's kind of like well yeah but I don't associate with anything of the religions and it is because you know. I am comfortable with the notion that Jesus Christ was an extremely interesting dude who said extremely clever things who you know I want to take as example on a daily basis and kinda go wow that was deep

36:32 But this kind of like, you know... This thing of like oh he's the son of God and let's dogmatically hold to that because it's true isn't it? We're all children of God. And there are other aspects there and yes It's this classic thing. Who should we vote for? The bad guy or the worst guy and that is a sad situation to find ourselves in but it's unfortunately the truth Europe no longer trusts politicians, they've never trusted them and all faith in politicians went out in the early 1990's. America kept faith in politicians lost it with George Bush for obvious reasons

37:24 I find that Americans are especially hurt by Obama, who basically didn't deliver. My wife campaigned for Obama and she goes like, who is this dude? I did too! That was the first time that I have ever really gotten involved in politics I already have a conspiratorial view and i can't believe, like, I'm still kicking myself that I got played. And there's people now that I see around town that have Obama 2012 stickers on their car and I'm like why the hell would you put that on your car? What did he promise you four years ago that came true? We're still in wars we're more than we were then. Guantanamo Bay is open, the economy shit

38:14 And now we have this false choice between Obama and Romney. It's pretty ridiculous! Well, it comes back to the fact that he was sorely disappointed He was a guy who was naive walked in there and on day one of his presidency when he wasn't president-elect in November I think it was 4th or 5th he had his first security briefing And he came out of that meeting a changed man. He said words like, well there are reasons why we can't leave Afghanistan and it's like some guy from the civil service you know secretary whoever who had months to prepare this who has had years of expertise in impressing politicians

39:05 And you fell for it. You fell for it! Then he kind of like... I think more recently, he just lost interest. I see a guy who basically goes like seriously He can't wait to get out. I see the same thing At one point he became hilarious when if somebody would... Like at about 2000 the latter part of 2009 and the early part of 2010 when I swear if somebody had dropped or lost a shoe in The White House, he would have been the one doing a press conference saying does this shoe belong to somebody for everything which was ridiculously kind of below him. He was the guy doing the press conference as kind

39:56 Where are your secretaries? Where is everybody else in this administration? Why are you here again talking about something which really the president shouldn't be talking about. But I think that's problematic and that works into the conspiracy mindset of people saying, well he was turned… it's kind like he was part of the conspiracy. No! I absolutely do believe Obama went in there with all the good intentions that he was, you know a nice man who had the best intentions. But from day one the civil service got to him impressed him with an awful lot of stupidity which he fell for and then you know he probably realized that he fell for it said oh my god what did I just do? Too late!

40:48 You know, I don't take quite as optimistic of you as you do on Obama. But at least there's a funny old Bill Hicks routine that kind of ties into your newest book but he says, you get the president in there and sit him down and show him a view of the Kennedy assassination he has never seen then put the curtain up and say, got any questions? I mean, it works. Uri Geller has this story about how at one point certain things were happening and Mossad showed him something whereby...I mean, you know, Uri Geller went in the 1970s around demonstrating psychic abilities and whoever was testing him whatever laboratory was testing him all the tests always came out positive

41:36 Now, first of all he hated that because he really was treated like a lab rat. Kinda like okay I've just been tested by laboratory X now I'm going to laboratory Y kinda you know every laboratory was testing it and it's not alive anyway as result of that his fame began to rise. He became invited kind could do this could do that And there is a point whereby they really began to realize that this was dangerous because remember it's the early 70s, Vietnam is going on. There are massive disgruntlement

42:13 Politicians weren't stable in their seats and they realized that there might be a shift into the mood thing. And Galler was a component of that, and certain people were beginning to use Galler Because guess what, Jesus comes out of India and walks on water. Well, Uri Geller came out of Israel and Uri Geller was able to biolocate according to certain reports and could bend spoons so it's like that same framework Right. And people were beginning to, people behind the scenes were about to set him up as kind of like maybe he is the next Jesus Now he hated that and didn't know some of his people around him were kinda going to do that because they would try to bring about change and they felt it was useful So anyway what happens is

43:07 that there was a briefing whereby they basically sat Uri down and they said you just made the top 20 of people to be assassinated. You're only expected to rise if this continues, and guess what? Nobody cares whether your alive or not because like Jesus if you die they can speculate endlessly about you So, don't think that anybody is that worried about your life. And he said well I am my wife is and they said okay well there are things which we can do we can make you controversial We can say you don't have these powers That'll keep your life He said yeah I'll take that one and then a certain guy with long beard started to appear

44:04 who looked a bit like Father Christmas. But it's that kind of thing, things which are going on are not happening in isolation and it influences people in power sometimes in good way I've forgotten who was but I think it was Clinton as well at one point they Like the president publishes his reading list for over Christmas or whatever it was. And there was like a UFO book in there and so it's interesting that people in power do realize that quite often something larger is going on but they themselves, you know

44:43 are not necessarily the right people to come up with the answers. And it's not so much to do with fact that the president is supposed to be all-powerful, the president isn't all powerful, a dictator is all powerful So by default, the president will never be able to answer everything simply because he's only the president. And that has nothing to do with a conspiracy theory that there are people behind the president We've defined the job as President as somebody who has limited power True! That is a fair point man But what about those people behind-the-scenes? You know... To bring it back to the book and throw out a little stone of speculation that crossed my mind a couple times while reading

45:25 You have this quote in the book for one example of a priest traveling with conquistadors I think where he casually mentions destroying all the writings and histories of the cultures they'd come across. And i started to think that that almost seems like... The destruction of records was so thorough that it was one of the top priorities of the people tasked with exploring other civilizations, which sounds like a weird thing for people to do and I'm going little David Icke on you now but a weird thing for people to do unless the royal bloodlines calling the shots already knew what was out there and they wanted to make sure that any evidence or recorded accounts of aliens in the past were erased because we might start to figure some things out. Start asking some questions. What do you think? Is that a possibility?"

46:08 It's a possibility but there are often quite very mundane reasons for it. Like in the 3rd century AD, there was a Chinese emperor who said burn everything which comes before me and the reason was that his ego was such that he wanted to go down into history as the start of Chinese civilization and guess what? He got his way! Because by burning everything, the way we treat history is like, oh well it needs to be a written source. So by default as nothing from before him pretty much survived, history began with this dude so he succeeded in accomplishing what he set out to achieve.

46:52 of contact with, if anything I would say that most evidence of contact with non-human intelligences from our ancestors has survived. The Manito king list which says that the gods once ruled over ancient Egypt directly that has survived. The Berossus account about Oannes coming out this half fish half human creature who taught by day and went back you know that's survived the accounts of the Mayan kings and how they contacted the nine gods of the underworld on a regular basis that has survived. So there's quite a bit of survival skills to these accounts that our ancestors had, you know contact with non-human intelligences And again this is kind of tying it back to kind like the Zacharias Sitchins and the Robert Temples I find it interesting or

47:49 and or said that the two of them had to come up with fake stories when there are good stories out there. And they are, you know interesting like the Berozes account does show that something was happening in that area off Iraq and non-human entities did have contact with human beings unfortunately Sijin prefer to invent a story rather than use the story and explore that story. And you know, the same thing with few other examples of like Robert Temple wants to use an African saga well Egypt is in African saga he could have used that example so it's sad to me that people invent rather than use what is out there by no means this my book exhaustive

48:44 nor was it meant to be, nor can I be. But I think you will find and this is kind of what I say in the book as a generalization on if ever we really go back to Africa and sit down with these tribal elders and say like okay forget whoever came before, forget whatever was written about you before Could you please help us write your story? And by the way, you will have editorial control. You will be able to verify that what I write is not created to fit into a devil worship or a primitive worship or Christian worship. Just talk

49:32 And I think if we go to these people with that attitude, then they are going to tell us a very interesting story. non-human intelligences. When that happened with the Hopi, they began to relate as well again unfortunately and this is so sad of mankind you know the Hopi say one thing then one guy jumps on it and spectacularizes it and then he gets all the press Twists it in a way that kind of like, you know makes it appear as if the hope he have said that the world is gonna end soon and all of That stuff It's sad

50:15 But it's also something human. Again, and it comes back to what you were talking about earlier which is this need to have a final answer I'm perfectly fine living in the world where Dogon may or may not have had contact with non-human intelligences whether the Chinese might have had, whether we have based on all of the evidence that I've seen I think we should logically draw the conclusion, yes we were probably contacted by non-human intelligences. Yes, we were not alone. Definitely what we can say is that our ancestors absolutely believed that they were not alone and that they had been contacted by non human intelligences so you know our ancestors might be wrong but at least they lived within this world where they were absolutely convinced that they were not alone

51:06 And that is, to me interesting and rich and beautiful. It says an awful lot about our ancestors and the world they created for themselves which is in marked contrast to our world where we believe we are completely unique, completely alone and completely special and they believed that they were not. And as a result of that, they took care of the Earth, they lived in balance with the Earth and we do not because we don't think there's anything worthy out there which needs our attention. A few dolphins or whales

51:53 don't really seem to matter that much and that is a marked difference I think between us and our ancestors. And you know there are unfortunate things to say about our world but at the same time, I find out what is interesting because it is being created into this viral one global kind of connection thing. And so when our ancestors were saying how they were able to tune into the world as one, I'm feeling or seeing that maybe technology in a few years from now seems to be able to accomplish the same thing and if that happens, that might be something whereby

52:37 The world kind of goes like... following since as long as we can remember, it seems to be coming apart at the seams in a lot of ways. I mean you have the Occupy movement which is kind of fizzled out but that was a rebellion against capitalism. You have Iceland and you have a lot of things going on in the European Union that I don't even know about but it seems like there is a culture of people finally pointing

53:18 pointing the finger at the structure they've never pointed their finger out before and that would be more revolutionary than anything. And it also seems to be coinciding with a time that people predicted thousands of years ago would be a period of intense change, is that just a coincidence or do you think those things are related? No, I think they're absolutely related. I wouldn't say it's just limited to 2012 and the mines clearly say that the greatest changes happen in a period 20 years before and 20 years after these kind of milestones And that it is really a time when things intensify. This cycle began in April of 1993 and the world then, and now is completely different. It's a completely different

54:04 world and that is interesting. We are going through these rapid developments, things like Skype the internet being able to fly around the world pretty much on a month's salary or the ability to fly around in 48 hours is something which 20 years ago cell phones who would think that Everybody's computer and internet, Wi-Fi would be on a cell thing. 20 years ago Wi-Fi didn't exist And all of these things really show how quickly we are moving There are two things here The world is coming together as a global village Our phones get answered in India when we want to speak to our banks or wherever and our clothing and furniture and everything else is produced in China

54:55 It's a global village, it is a global economy. Europe tried to say okay we're going to do a pan-European economy as well and we are going make this hard, we are going tie this into our euro and all of these things but what they forgot was that there were still strong borders that there is no such thing as European I have never heard anybody say to the question where you from? I'm from Europe I was born in Belgium, I live in France part-time and I live in the UK part time. When people say to me where are you from? My wife and I would kind of go like that's a good question have you got five minutes because it is rather complex! Yet I could say I'm European who sometimes lives in LA and that would answer the question but even I am not necessarily tied into Belgian nationality or feeling

55:51 specifically special for being Belgian. Even I don't do it. And nobody does, yet somehow we were going to think that this euro thing was going to work and that politicians were going let go of their borders and were gonna let go off their power It didn't happen its not happening I think it will happen eventually but I think its going be a much slower process and I think what we're seeing is basically that the entire banking issues are part of that The world has become a global village but there's nobody steering it. And meanwhile you have the world economy who has an engine which is roaring saying, feed me! Feed me! Feed Me! But it's like a monster and on occasion certain people feed it like the Germans will say here's a leaf

56:46 And the giant engine, let's give it an intelligence of its own will kind of go like I need much more. A leaf won't do. The Americans will put another leaf and they're going to go okay are you kidding me? Two leaves! I need more. And the reason why the world economy isn't working is because nobody is in charge of Who's left to be in charge of it are the banks. Right, so someone is in charge? Well I mean but they end up being in charge because nobody else kind like you know is and by default the people in charge of money are guess what the people in charge of money which are banks and until we put somebody else in charge of money You know that it's going to be like that But there is nobody there There is no president of the world There is a UN

57:30 But, you know let's laugh about it now and then let's move on. There is nobody there! The World Bank yes guess what? It's a bank once again we have created the system whereby we are not realized but nobody is doing anything about it. There is a global economy the banking industry is global But there is no world power out there directing it and that is a problem which is why you know, the banks will continuously say well we can't sustain this because It's not coordinated like you know The American banks can mess up as much as they want by creating

58:14 completely bad mortgages and bringing everybody rest in the world down because there is no regulation. They can just do these things because again, there is no regulation and it's not a fault of the bank. If our children stay up until 4 o'clock in the morning and get completely drunk and do various things, the question is well did you ever tell them it's a bad thing? And if the answer is no well then you shouldn't be upset by the fact that they get drunk and stay out until four o'clock in morning. That's unfortunately the situation with our banks nobody's telling them off nobody saying this is bad and so to do whatever he wants. Well I wonder if when the institution of fractional reserve banking was implemented

59:02 I wonder if the people who started it just created it out of happenstance or if they had a good idea who was going to be holding all the chips at the end of the game. Well, I mean... The sad conclusion is that money always stays where it is and doesn't move that much We seem to pretend that all of these people in China and Russia are somehow new. But they were the power brokers of the past, it's just that in the past their power and money was run through government accounting things and more recent times they ran it through their own accounting things

59:48 Nothing truly changes, I find there. Whatever system you apply at the end of the day who begins with an awful lot of money will have just more money and that's a game everybody plays so that is unfortunately reality. It just sucks Phil we couldn't get people to adopt our currency so everyone could be indebted I believe the Americans tried to do that and it works quite well. Touche, let me bring this back to your specialty because we are getting down to it and you know You've done a lot of research on ancient aliens And the idea that we've interacted with them and our history may be a lot stranger than we realize maybe older Maybe some lost civilizations We don't know about maybe we had technology we don't know about

1:00:41 And it is so fun to look at these things under a microscope case by case by case, but can you broaden it out for us? Because it gets a little hazy for me. What is the whole story? What does it look like to you were these interactions sporadic? Were they there at the beginning gave us little bits of information and went away how do we bring it together what's the overarching story here Phil I think it went something like that We have been, and to some extent it's... My next book which is coming out is The Lost Civilization Enigma which is coming out in October. And it's like a natural sequence to the Ancient Dalian question whereas the ancient daily question asks were we

1:01:27 Are we alone? Answering no. This is kind of like saying were we the first and the answer is No, we've been around for far longer And then we've been intelligent and civilized for far longer I think it went to something like this at one point Mankind was created by you know whatever circumstances At that moment in time certain things began to happen And people began to realize that our brain was very interesting. Maybe somebody fell from a rock once and said like, I had this dream that I went somewhere and saw this shiny being and then I was back in my body. Then kind of like you know few weeks later somebody probably fell from another rock and said like, You know? I have the same dream! At some point someone said maybe it's not a dream

1:02:25 Early man definitely explored other realities. They tried to get there through creating substances, to get there... They began to map the other realities and came away knowing that they were not alone That there were non-human intelligences out there And then as we developed I think we began to ask them We began to ask them for advice and they lent it to us. And some of these ancient alien contacts, though I say in the book that definitely some of them were physical in nature... ...I think also quite a few of them were non-physical in nature

1:03:08 And Terence McKenna is a very good example of that. He basically went into the Amazon, was given this potion and contacted his intelligence. The intelligence said here's the nature of time which in itself you know was a radical interesting thing even today standards basically say that time is byproduct of gravity and it isn't really in existence and whenever people kind of go like well time doesn't exist it's an illusion. It's like, well maybe it's not. And McKenna was given this thing that basically time is a fractal wave and was given the equation also told that at certain points in time basically the wave of novelty would be more intense new things would happen more often in certain pockets of time than another pocket

1:03:57 pockets of time. He never really understood that, he did a bit with it but nor was he meant to be the genius who was going figure it all out and he did his job. He gave it to the rest of us and said like here I've tried to do certain stuff with it now maybe you would have better chance. The difference between today however the ancient Egyptians is this Today was a lone guy who had to publish the book, who got help from 3-4 people. In doing it one guy made it into computer program and that's about it If Terence had lived in ancient Egypt if the gods would have given him back from this trip

1:04:43 I would have said to somebody in ancient Egypt, the gods have just told me this not even intelligence has just told me that time is a fractal wave and this is the wave. It would have been a matter of state the top geniuses in the country would have been gathered and they would have tried to figure out what the heck this was all about. And that is a difference between our times and our history, you know? Yeah it's an interesting distinction for sure yeah it could still be going on people just aren't given time of day Absolutely. And I think that's really our ancestors were in contact with these non-human intelligences, they treasured it It was something which to them was of a daily basis They experienced the divine You know...it wasn't like do you believe God exists? It is like oh! I'll give an experience Let us go to the temple and you will be given an experience of another reality

1:05:44 That was a knowing, that was wisdom rather than dude in the frock standing in front of the congregation saying trust me. It's like well there is nothing to trust you haven't got any direct experience of the divine In fact Christianity is based on complete non-revelationary kind of experience adhering to the fact that the Catholic Church has correctly interpreted the words of Jesus and forever shall we live in those words. It's not that much of a direct experience, and it's stark contrast to anything which had happened before now I would actually don't blame the Catholic Church for you know being kind like for what that aspect of it

1:06:32 Because it was a sign of the times, all the other religions pretty much are in that same format. And it's again something which developed over time and in our history but the sad thing is that ancestors early mankind realized they were part of something larger That seems to have trickled down to us really putting borders in, like my community, country and state. When mankind as a whole can't even appreciate that they are part of our world... ...that we are all citizens of this world. Well if somebody cannot define them as citizen of the world

1:07:19 By default, they can't identify themselves as a citizen of the universe. So by default whoever is out there basically kind of goes like they don't want to hear what we have to say. I mean cultures like the Mayans are often depicted us as savages but they seem to have more that mindset that global mindset or part-of-the earth mindset and you know i wonder about the idea that people talk about, that there might be some type of energy grid under the sacred ruins that have been built around the globe. And then I think about people's obsession with astrology and the precise aligning of these structures with stars and also the lore you mentioned about like travel to realms and stuff. And I wonder if it all relates to an ability to somehow induce astral travel or out-of-body experience with these structures on the place they are on Earth?

1:08:12 It's a very good question, isn't it? Well my... the book after The Lost Civilization Enigma is actually going to go into an aspect of that. Not as big as you pointed out but like a subset of that and the working title is actually called The Afterlife Machines of the...it's probably gonna change. Oh! That's cool But it does show you that certain people at certain points on this globe were They showed up in a place and basically were convinced that they were going to get an otherworldly experience. I think the short answer to your question is yes

1:08:53 everything points out to the fact that certain places across the world allow for access to other dimensions and our ancestors knew how they could manipulate these places into regulating this. Some places were happenstance like the Piscia breeded fumes but sometimes there were no fumes because they came from the earth And sometimes you didn't give up these gases. They organized themselves. It was very much like soul factories in the sense that everybody who wanted to know came to these places and would experience that they had a soul, and the factory aspect comes in that people came and had to walk away with this experience. So they realized how they had to regulate everything so that everybody did go away with their experience rather than just saying have you got a month to hang out?

1:09:54 That is kind of like some of the lost technology. It was a spiritual technology in the sense that it was technology which meant to make us spiritual by giving us experiences But yes, there's definitely evidence that certain places across the world have this ability innately. And then obviously when they were enhanced by our ancestors became not necessarily even more powerful as a place of initiation, but definitely were recognized as the power of initiation. But I think it's as whole any place on earth suffices to kind like make us go out our mind certain places are just more powerful than others and our ancestors

1:10:46 pick those places obviously where it was easier and to some extent better for them to work at than other places because they could pick and choose where they wanted to go because there weren't any borders. and Has there been any real outside influence on ancient aliens or censorship told you can't talk about a certain subject or they might pull the plug? And do you think the government's out there, someone is out there throwing out disinformation to muddy these waters a little bit. Nobody has ever tried to interfere with anything being said on ancient aliens but as I said there are like completely human considerations to make like it's a TV show so anything which isn't visible will not be aired

1:11:46 Because there's nothing to air. It's not visual and you know, I don't believe in this kind of like pull being plugged up plug being pulled on television shows. It doesn't happen, it happens in very rare instances and then everybody actually knows about it mostly have to do with biographies of people whereby somebody from the family or somebody else puts an injunction there. It sometimes happens on things to do with secrets of state But nothing of the ancient alien thing has anything to do with that. And the UFO waters have been so muddled, that our government actually loves the fact and I actually think is actively engaged in promoting these things because they know that the waters are so muddled that they are safe

1:12:41 And they don't need to use anything of that kind. Plus, for the people who really want to muddy the waters because the economy itself ... rent's gotta get paid. So if you're out there doing research and you don't come up with something interesting or a narrative that makes sense and is easy to market, you might be out on the street tomorrow! If on the 30th of the month you haven't found it well I guess its time to start writing it. And scientists do it as well If this report is not going to be published then, because it's basically an archaeologist who goes into a field and finds nothing. He realizes that might not be the best thing for his career and quite a few of them have gone to the cellars of museums where they know that most watches in these cellars are unindexed anyway

1:13:35 And they kind of pretend that they found it a few weeks before. That happens on daily basis, you know? But this idea that somehow there are injunctions placed... It doesn't work like that Well, that's good to know. And I got one more question from this Jake fella. Jake says he thinks there is an obvious correlation between aliens and what the ancients thought were gods but do you think these beings could or did create life on earth? Or even manipulate the environment to support life? Uh...and i guess you kind of talk about that in a book with the terraforming idea Yes uh...I mean yes I believe that DNA is intelligent

1:14:18 DNA is far more interesting than we think it is. I think that DNA is universal, and I don't think the DNA was sent by an intelligence here actually think DNA is the intelligence which sends itself everywhere across the world. You know have we been to... has our climate been adapted? I think no! An extraterrestrial force has adapted our climate to fit certain needs. I think it's far easier to do it the other way around, which is adapt us to our environment or let just life be. But again

1:15:04 the history of extraterrestrial intervention in this Earth didn't begin with Homo sapiens, it began with the arrival of DNA. And that is basically what Francis Crick who was the co-discoverer of double helix structure of DNA said himself when NASA is recreating interstellar space, what they find is that the building blocks of DNA i.e life are present there it happens as created the universe creates life itself you know and that is something which scientists are aware of scientists know but because it's only a decade

1:15:47 old, isn't much out there as something which people know about and something which you kind of can... we are considering as part of the daily debate. But I think intelligent life began when life came to planet Earth and we are just an aspect of that. We are the final thing on two legs which is running around but And there are animals out there, you know which have a conscious of themselves. Somebody was actually pointing out a few weeks ago he said like cats never meow against each other when cats meow it's always for the attention of humans so how do cats communicate with each other? It is one of those things we think all these animals who are around us but really we don't

1:16:42 And clearly when we began to study dolphins it was clearly the case that we had hardly any idea whatsoever as to who they were or what was going on there. But you know, we're an interesting species. We will hopefully move along and find some of these answers Well, thanks a lot for being here man. That's pretty much all I got for you. I know you gotta get going It's been an awesome show. I had a great time talking to you We talked about your upcoming book and you just put out Killing Kennedy I saw on your website you got some upcoming tours which really look fascinating to me. The Bosnian Valley, the Pyramids and the Inca Tours? Those are exactly what...I talked to somebody, Pat Shenarton on a past show about the idea that someone needs to go and do these tours with the idea of the alternative history rather than conventional. And it seems—I read the description—it seems exactly like what that is. It seems awesome!

1:17:40 Absolutely. Again, Kathleen and I we do these tours regularly. Bosnia and Peru is up but like we also take people to France and we take people to Scotland because we really feel that there is no substitute for traveling for people showing them and say like you know things Because the other way around it's so weird. I mean on a completely different note and very quickly like you know, Da Vinci could somehow believe that the body of Mary Magdalene is missing It's not! It's on display in churches in parts You know one church has had the other one has bone And a church absolutely agrees with the fact that Mary Magdalene came to France after Jesus' death But if you don't travel to these places

1:18:29 you will, or you're potentially convinced that Dan Brown might be right. That she's somewhere underneath the Louvre in the shopping mall and we want to put people into contact with reality and say this is what you've read about this is what you see on TV now meet real thing, meet real people involved And it becomes real. It's not just something which you've read about or seen about, the world needs to be lived and not seen on TV or read about in books. Great point! So stop just being alive and start living. PhilipKoppens.com is the website. Phil do you have anything else to let people know while I still gotcha?

1:19:17 And if you go to Twitter or Facebook and you type in my name there, you will also come to me. So we can kind of like follow me on a more daily basis if you want and kinda like the website has articles as information about book has information about tours has basically like the central point of contact Alright, well Philip Copens you're the man keep fighting the good fight. Keep doing your research I'll keep reading about it and hopefully I can get you on again sometime Absolutely. It's been my pleasure and we will meet again. Alrighty sir. Enjoy your day Thank you

1:19:54 There it is people, there you have it. Be sure to check out the work of Philip Kopens on his website and get connected with me in the Higher Side chats on Facebook Twitter and YouTube And stop by conspiratees.net for all your conspiracy clothing needs The coupon code HIGHERSIDE gets you 15% off Here's a band called The Believers Will be Suspicious with the song Light appropriately about a weird light in the sky Check them out if you like it Boom I'm outta here I'm stuck inside and so low on supply Late one night, I saw the heart of a coat off sky Something strange and I can't explain But I know I'll never... I go unattended So untended What do I do?

1:21:25 I'm at the bar drinking, thinking of you If i can't get out, be sleeping at the station Dreaming that I am home in bed with you Late one night, I saw a light In the heart of dark sky Something strange and I cannot But I know I'll never go

1:22:13 I'll be fine

1:23:18 Smells like bad perfume and cigarettes I don't need shiny things to make me feel like i'm a king What I don't spend, I send it home Late one night saw the light in the heart of a cold dark sky Something strange and I cannot

1:24:02 But I know I'm never gonna die Late one night, I saw the light In the heart of a cold dark sky Something strange, I cannot explain But I know what it's saying