Robert Guffey | Project Chameleo, Secret Tech, & The Surveillance State

00:00 You have one new message. Hey Greg, I just want to tell you that i'm thoroughly enjoying your show Everything you produce on that show is perfect Also wanted to tell you that when Art Bell left I sent a letter to Dark Matter Telling them that you should've been the replacement for Midnight in The Desert Unfortunately for everyone That didn't happen I think But...I uh..just became a plus member and.... I got your app And I am eagerly awaiting your next show.

01:19 Alright people, we know society has gotten even creepier in a post-911 world and with no sign that a post post 9 11 world is on its way We find the dreaded surveillance state growing with every passing breath our old friendly neighborhood policemen looking more like an occupying high tech military force And our sleazy shadow states slinking out into the light as full spectrum control becomes the new normal Well anyone who thinks that might be a little melodramatic might be singing a different tune after we hear the tale today's guest has to tell His name is Robert Guffey, author of a new book Cameo A Strange But True Story Of Invisible Spies Heroin Addiction And Homeland Security that details the saga of a man who found himself accidentally wandering onto the radar of the great military intelligence beast in my old stomping grounds at Pacific Beach right here in San Diego.

02:05 Robert is also the author of a previous book entitled Cryptosketology, Conspiracy Theory as an Art Form. Has risen through the ranks of Freemasonry and has also written several pieces for Paranoia Magazine and other publications. It's an honor and pleasure to have him here. Robert my man how the hell are ya? I am fine thank you for having me on yeah man it's awesome i really did love cameo not only because i'm very familiar with the backdrop of the story but also because of just how much reveals about the surveillance state and the type of tech that they have at their disposal i mean assuming that's all true. And I'm sure that's kind of typically the first question you get, but the book is fascinating and really funny. And of course people equate the writing to something like Hunter S Thompson which is a great compliment but it makes one wonder how much poetic license was taken with this so let me do the cliche thing and ask you just how true is this true story?

02:56 What you know it's interesting i most the people who read. After they've written entire book, i think they understand that it is in fact a true story though i think some people are skeptical because your bombarded by lies so often 24 hours a day that when you see something that says a strange but true story you immediately assume must be the opposite of not being a true story if it does what it is In this case, when you buy the can of peas in the supermarket and it says can of peas. You open it and generally there's peas inside. In this case, this is in fact a can of peas. It is exactly what it says it is. It's a strange but true story. Everything in the book actually happened exactly the way I described it. The only thing that's fictional is that I changed the names of almost everyone except for those people who are public figures already like

03:49 Like Richard Schoenberg, who we'll get to later on. I first wrote a brief outline of the entire story for fourteen times back in twenty thirteen it was called strange tales online security and from there that's how our books on out about it and then the book came. after that was published around this time last year. Basically, it all goes back to July 12th 2003 and I know it was exactly that day because on July 12th 2003 that was the day I was initiated into the third degree of Freemasonry

04:36 And I mentioned that because it's important later on the story. So after, I went through the third degree, I called my friend Damien who in the book I call him Dion but he told me he didn't mind if I used his real name at this point so his name is Damien and i've known Damian since I was 16. In fact I met him on my 16th birthday that's how long I'm going to miss and this is all occurring in two thousand three so after the third degree occurred i called him to tell them you know that i was still alive, add he left a message wasn't there. And then he never called back which was unusual usually would get back to me within a day or two but a whole week went by until he call me

05:24 We call me back he told me this incredible story that a week before i'm he is apartment in pacific beach reserve a party house pretty much a drug house people are coming and going all the time people would stay, people who he only knew vaguely with would be. Stay on his couch and one of these people was a guy named lee supposedly his name was late later on we were totally with doyle so This guy, unbeknownst to Damien, had recently gone AWOL from Camp Pendleton which as you know is very close to Pacific Beach.

06:04 Well, apparently when he went AWOL from Camp Pendleton he took with him a 9mm Iraqi gun 23 pairs of high-tech night vision goggles A DoD laptop computer and a truck. And I've told people this and sometimes they're like whoa how is that even possible? How could you steal all that stuff from a military base two years after 9 11? I don't know! That's just what happened You can't carry all the goggles out I would remind people that if they are skeptical of that, Iím sure if you go to YouTube and just punch in a guy driving tank down San Diego, youíll see footage of a guy who stole an entire tank from an armory there in San Diego. In fact, that ties into the story later on. Thereís a whole documentary about that called ìColda Sackî

06:55 If you watch that documentary, which takes place in Pacific Beach. It's all about the guy who stole that tank and when you watch that documentary, you realize this guy was probably going through the same thing Damien is going through in Camellia. But that's for later! Lee steals all the stuff from Camp Pendleton and some of it he brings into Damienís house. Damian is at home one night having this big party, Lee pulls out his stolen laptop and turns it on and immediately the DoD logo appears on the screen

07:33 The second damien sees the dod logo he goes well wait a minute okay get you and all your low jacks, just get out of my apartment and the guy leaves like no don't worry about it they can track this stuff. Like on cue you know minutes later there's not got the door and demi open for the woman there who says her name is special agent lita johnson which is the name i use in the book that's not a real name she represented herself as a special agent for the ncis. Which by way this before the ncis tv series i think this was the first time it ever even heard of the mcs and the phone with their two other, officious looking gentleman behind her and she tells damien that they need to search his apartment damian whose father was narcotics cop by the way

08:27 new full well with his rights were any said well you come back with a warrant and then you can search the place she said will be right back. He closes the door turns everyone at the party anyone grab your stuff meaning your drugs and go out the back door they all like throw their drug down on the, floor and then go out the back door. Immediately within minutes, the police come at the same time. They're all kind of It was very strange they arrived at the same time yet didn't seem to be working together there kind of keystone cop like bumping into each other and arguing with each other in the ncis what they were mostly interested in they wanna know where these goggles work. Apparently some of them we're in the apartment we had brought them in with him someone more not, add a even though their drugs all over the place they don't care about that date they were obsessed with these i'm going to go.

09:27 So they arrest lee slash doyle and damien and bring them both downtown to the jail in san diego. And there are a grill two of them for a whole week you know they separate them the grilling damian, They think damien can fall in some effort to sell the equipment to al qaeda they wanna know like you know who mr big is working for his contacts are damian trying to say listen i. Barely knew this guy and what do you mean barely new he's living at your house you must have known him and he didn't want a cooperate damion been out of,

10:08 prison he's been homeless she was on the same cell block that mike tyson. Maryland you gonna think so black is the men in those brothers and oj l a, they always put damien into that the cell block with celebrities to continue to add narcotics cop so he can't be at risk from the other inmates though they are putting them sick of the things that sell block with these with another celebrity wow it made it so you get out of jail his whole life you know the code is he don't snitch uh... there are other people involved that he didn't want to pull into this whole situation so his whole attitude was i'm not giving any information anyway yet no information to give them they wanted him to like service a witness for them against this week it and amy and

10:56 Like, I can't serve as a witness because I don't know anything. You know everything I've told you which takes about two minutes is what I know." Well they gave him the Abu Ghraib treatment for about a week and then finally at the end they let him go and at that point he goes home and calls me and tells this whole story And both of us thought well obviously that's the end of it they realized you know cooler heads prevailed and they realize that, do you mean doesn't really know anything and that this whole cost as nightmare is over. Why would i was just beginning at that point in fact because then a couple days later he called me back to tell me about dirty people following him around.

11:39 And at first it sounded really outlandish because he was telling me that it wasn't just one person or two people following him around. Like fourteen people, fourteen military looking jarheads are walking down garnet avenue and he goes into a 7-eleven and these guys just follow him in and then a whole parade of people follow him out he goes to the mexican restaurant down the street they all come in like sit down different tables and at first i thought wow you must be suffering from Methin do paranoid obviously he's gone over the deep end this sounds really weird but then things started to happen that seemed indicate that well no maybe you wasn't crazy he was telling me that you know there is car following around your park out. Outside of apartment all day and night they would shine halogen lights through his bedroom windows just a fuck with him and i said wall for what's going on,

12:33 i could go out right now license plate numbers of all the cars that you think are following you and like take photographs of those. Those license plates in this car. So he does that and he sends me a list of license plates, and the photographs. And I even include the list of license plates in the book. And i happen to have a friend who worked for the DMV in Seattle Washington so I sent him The list of license plates and I said run a check on them and he did it all then came back as officially non-existent I know you reason that would be is it there a government vehicle right now i know the. I know the cars existed i saw photographs you know and even if he was randomly making up numbers, no that's not possible if your just randomly making of number two thinking which is your accidentally hit on a vehicle that existed so obviously billy levy vehicles would not be in the system as if someone did not want them in the system that was the first indication ok well maybe this is not just paranoia

13:35 Well the harassment like that up from there where they were doing just bizarre things it wasn't it was clearly not an attempt to. Be sure patience and follow him around is the intent with for him see them, enter him to know that he was being followed and two to finally slowly drove driving crazy essentially right and they started bombarding in with Who's the nation with kind of he would look out the window of his living room. Outside the window would be this alien landscape i described in the book is a kind of like boris vallejo painting with three moons and the sky just because crazy surreal landscape out the windows any open the door and it was,

14:20 It would look like it was supposed to close the door look out the window and there's the weird alien landscape again one night he was laying in bed and they projected a silhouette of hand with a gun that would tell down in the middle of pointed his head. i want one point he had leather jacket with laying on the floor and that kind of. Amorpus blob of protoplasmic energy crawl across before crawled into the leather jacket in the middle of a jackie crawl across the floor there were things like people would come over his friend is,

14:55 came over and said he had told me that he felt that the apartment was getting smaller and larger, but he come into his apartment. And then it seemed to be much, much larger on the inside than it used to be kind of like Dr. Who's Tardis. And after you mentioned that a friend of this comes over who hadn't been there in awhile and the friend goes Did your apartment growing so i wouldn't just him other people were seeing this as well then it gets the point where he was reporting to me. That there were people in his apartment interacting with them who he could not see, so they would come a push him over they talk to him at one point you is in the bathroom and brushing teeth

15:38 and he moved the mirrored medicine cabinet and as he was moving the mirror on the medicine cabinet, he could see behind him these quote, invisible people in the mirror. But only when he was looking in the mirror and when you said that it's that seemed Damien doesn't have any sort of scientific background but to me It kind of made sense if you had some sort of perhaps light bending technology or something that you would be able to see them near but not in the mirror Yeah And that was another indication to me that maybe all this wasn't fact I should probably note that also surrounding his apartment, within a mile of his apartment were various corporations that specialized in creating exotic weapons and technology like ATC, American Technology Corporation

16:31 And most importantly i see science applications international corporation. I see was just within pretty much walking distance of his apartment. It double the corporations have since moved to say i see has split into two different corporations one of which, has kept the name is a icy and other branches call it called light so i believe lei do s and they move their headquarters to virginia but at the time all these corporations were based just right. Right right uh stones throw away from damien's apartment and so all this stuff of the the stuff with invisible people and harassment, all that stuff continued to the point where i remember i was talking about a phone one night and damien doesn't spook easily and yet he was

17:26 Cracking up at this point because they were actually bombarding him with as i was talking to them. Bullet came into the window but they weren't visible like acoustic bullets made of sound which a t american technology corporation, what is that working on exactly that time period and i put those articles in the book acoustic bullets come through the wall and just Start blowing up all these chachki that the damien has on a shelf. They just started everything start exploding like a window explodes all the stuff starts exploding around him like almost like a poltergeist activity.

18:04 but this wasn't, there was no polar guys. There was nothing supernatural about this and I heard that while I was on the phone with them also they would do things where they would just suddenly cut off all of the ambient noise in the apartment which at first sounds like well big deal but that actually has a kind of Chinese water torture kinda quality to it when suddenly everything goes dead silent and you can't hear anything outside the window. They would do things like this, at one point there was an attic that ran the length of the apartment building and you could enter through a little trap door up in the ceiling above his bed and he wondered if maybe

18:56 They were up there someone was up there with technology or something and bombarding him so he went up there and actually. Heard this like a giant tiger running through the darkness you know any immediately, bailed in left the attic of course everyone back up their again and neighbors moved new neighbors came in who are decidedly unfriendly which is a pattern I later learned as the pattern and Meanwhile while all this is happening. This woman Lita Johnson's a special agent from NCIS Who was the main person grilling him in the jail? She would show up on his doorstep

19:37 All the people who are parked outside would go away and then suddenly she would appear. And she would knock on his door and say, hi how are you doing? Have you changed your mind have you decided to cooperate now? And then he would say no and then in a heat she gave him her card instead well if you change your mind call the number on the card and then she and her two goons with leave and the second they left All the cars would come back and the harassment would start up all over again, even worse than before. She was regularly contacting him letting him know where this is coming from.

20:17 since she gave him her card that had her phone number on it, I asked Damien to give me the phone number. At one point i actually called her and had a conversation with her in the transcript of that conversation is also in the book and she seemed very flustered and surprised that anyone was calling her about Damien. And I said my friend claims that you're Your agency is surveilling him and following him is that true in she just would give me the kind of convoluted. Clinton ask kind of see why a language like oh no one in my agency is currently following your friend you know just very precise language like that right actually like that part a lot because,

21:03 I guess it was at this point that the harassment had gotten to the point where he wanted to leave town and so you called her just to make sure that there was kind of a kosher thing that he wasn't breaking any laws and your point blank after like hey can he leave. The state or can you leave town in she would Be really quiet and say well it's not illegal for him to leave but it could complicate things and I wouldn't recommend that like what does that mean lady. Yeah exactly what is that me and she sort of implied that he was crazy but meanwhile none of her answers You know jive with being crazy and so. I was around this time it got really bad to be honest begins like a rabbit said it was run July 2003 and it gets more and more intense,

21:48 Until early two thousand and four were or damien lost weight he was urinating blood at times you had a metallic taste in his mouth which i later learned is the symptom of electromagnetic radiation poisoning basically, end he happened to run into this beachcomber guy down at the beach who have this van. He was trying to sell. And so i remember correctly it was like five hundred dollars six hundred dollars or something with the guy one for the van and damien have any money. Without even telling him i wired in western union five hundred dollars and as you probably know if u go pick up money western union you need a password,

22:30 the other person need to give you a password so i called him to tell him hate the band it's yours you know i just i just sent me money. And i was gonna given the password at that moment he said no don't give it to me yet, he was concerned that if anyone listening they would go and pick up money before you could get it yeah so he goes out call call you back with after i'm ready to go. I got all my stuff ready alcohol you back in africa passport well So a couple hours later he calls back and right at the second I was about to give him the password, the phone cuts out. Then I call him back

23:09 I'm about to give me the password phone cut out again call back about giving passport phone got that again just over and over and over again pattern until i suddenly remembered something when you make a call there's a brief. Period their operator says he's gonna ask you the person go accept charges, During that brief moment, the other person can hear what you're saying. So I placed a collect char, a collect call to Damien and as the operator was about to ask him will you accept the charges? I just yelled out this hint that only he would understand what it meant and he immediately understood. He knew what the password was and then the phone cut out like a second later

23:58 He was able to go to Western Union, pull out the money and gave it to the Beachcomber guy. i try to be hold later on actually wrote in the band it was black like punisher mobile van, write out of the old punish your kind books and i need you to black fan and it barely work that sounded like a jet engine taking off. Exhaust would come up into the passenger seat while you're sitting in it If you were sitting in the passenger seat, you couldn't open the door to get out. He had to get out and open it on the other side. He put all these bumper stickers on them like quotes from Thomas Jefferson and words that said things like gas lit and loving it so he was not in any way a surveillance vehicle.

24:49 But he put you put all stuff in the van and just decide to leave because that's what a lot of people do in this situation they think if they leave. The city it'll stop yeah it turned out that not the case me since publication clearly i've been contacted by people from i've been contacted by well-paid attorney is that your. Previously living a high lifestyle minnesota who are now living on the beach in santa monica because they can't afford anything else could be locked everything because the surveillance basically destroyed their life and moved in and that didn't help i had no guy move to australia it didn't stop a guy move from florida thailand didn't stop.

25:30 So, leaving doesn't help but at the time we didn't know that. So he gets into the van and just takes off. He leaves a note on his door saying I'm heading west which of course would be the Pacific Ocean and immediately went to Texas towards Texas and calls me from From a payphone on the side of road no in middle nowhere to tell me that there's this little drone following around keep in mind two thousand three. I mean drones it's not like today where everyone talking about drones and people are shooting drones out of the sky and drones are getting away commercial airplane i mean no one is really talking about drones but here you tell me that there's this little ufo like your own,

26:16 following him around. He drives all the way to Texas, from Texas he goes to Minnesota where his...he has a son who at that point was you know I don't know 11 or something 10 and when all the way to Minnesota and one point he's in bathroom, goes into a bathroom in Minnesota and he sees there washing hands And the guy comes in we never seen before the guy comes up to think next to him and ask the other guys washing hands turns to damien says. Listen if you just give this stuff back all of this will end and the guy he didn't say it in a way like threatening was more like pleading it with her like i'm tired of following around please get the stuff out and then another guy,

27:11 Comes in a second later and grabs the first guy and drags him out as if he broke protocol or something cuz this was only one of two times. Where anyone had actually broken scripted admitted that you would be involved no point it is to make the other person think that they're crazy right there, imagining all of this so it wouldn't help to actually admit that you're following the person the only other time happened prior to this when damien was at one point in his kitchen and there were these two guys just

27:46 outside just being really obnoxious. So Damien's making lunch and he starts putting in, uh, he starts making, he puts a peanut butter into a bowl and like flour and baking soda and Jell-O cayenne pepper. He likes mixes with cream and mixes it all together into this goo. And then he just runs out and he tosses it over the fence and it hits these two jarhead looking guys now they're covered in all this goo when they run off towards the Vons parking lot that's next door Flash forward a little bit later, he actually met with Lita Johnson hoping to make a deal with her so that they would stop harassing him. That didnít go well but there was a point where Damien said ìListen Iím willing to do anything to get this to end because I donít want any more food fights with the fedsî and Lita Johnson and her superior officer, her boss was there at this meeting in a bagel shop on Garnet Avenue

28:37 She laughed and said, oh yes that made us all laugh. That was the only other moment when anyone actually admitted that this was actually happening you know? So okay back to the bathroom in Minnesota he... This spooks him obviously when the guy says just give this stuff back because it'll all end He leaves the bathroom gets back into the van keeps driving. He ends up in Winona Kansas And if you go look up Winona Kansas on the internet You'll see that Literally like a hundred and four people live in when you can't it's really small. And on the way there his van breaks down side of the road at night, can these two good old boys with thick southern accent pick him up and i know this because i spoke to them on the phone they picked him up off either road he tells them

29:27 the whole story with everything i just told you and these two guys are skeptical they think that I don't know Damien is yanking their chain or something so they actually call me, Damien gives them my phone number name says well call this guy and ask him he's a professor. He'll vouch for me so out of the blue I just get this phone call and I hit his guy with I'm wondering what he's gotten into now. He told us this crazy story and we want to know if it's true. So I tell him, yeah absolutely all that is true he was being followed there were invisible people etc drones following him around as i'm talking to them the guy freaks out because they see the actual drone outside their house its descending right outside of their house and their mind gets blown

30:29 and i asked them if they would please put gas in uh... in uh... demands and help to help him get back on the road today actually did that what they thought of this ufo looking george adamski flying saucer outside their house a day willing to at the help them we put gas in his band he ended up in winona kansas for some reason when you get the one on a campus all the surveillance stuff stopped now i don't know if that's because they willingly just pulled back on it Or if it's because the town was so small that maybe you just can't get away with it. I mean, if a stranger came into a town with 100 people in and then 17 marines are following him? You think that would stand out hard to get away with that.

31:12 It seems to me that you can only get away with this in a major population center like san diego or. Austin there were los angeles for him lobby don't know their own neighbors so he ends up in wynonna kansas he kind of disabled to breathe, for a little bit and while he is sort of recuperating from all the insanity, he starts going around the internet trying to find anything that looks like the invisibility or cloaking technology that he saw being deployed in his apartment. He came across a Japanese professor who created this invisibility cloak

31:48 and had garnered some media attention because of this. But that didn't really look like what he had seen, it was a little clunky then he goes through other things and suddenly comes across this website called cameleo.net which is run by this guy named Richard Chonger who's a scientist who has a top secret clearance or did until just recently, he recently retired last year Richard Schoengert has this private operation going that he calls Project Cameleo. It's not a government project, something he was developing on his own time with a colleague, Dr. Lev Gerger who is an eminent physicist and well respected. Richard Schoengert had all these descriptions of the technology and how it worked

32:40 He had spoken at various military conferences about this and all that was also on the website. Damien contacts me and says, ìLook at this guyís website because it kind of looks like what I think I experienced.î So I go and look at the website and Iím surprised to see that Richard Schoengerdt says he is a 33rd degree Freemason with the Long Beach Scottish Rite and I am a 32nd degree Freemason at the Long Beach Scottish Rites. So we're Lodge brothers, me and this guy like...I must have met him at some point you know and didn't know it so i contact him and say I'd like to interview you about this technology, this project Cameleo and I say you know I'm part of the lodge

33:32 I've written, I've done various other interviews and articles etc. So he writes me back and says okay yeah that sounds good you know let's meet at the lodge this Saturday there is a ritual going on anyway Saturday morning we'll meet up there and then go have lunch so i brought Damien with me, Damien came all the way down and I met Richard Schoenger that morning Saturday morning and I immediately Recognize him and I realized. I have seen them before that we've never been formally introduced. I had seen him performing the rituals on stage many times and I bring him out of the lodge after everything's over, and I introduce him to Damien This is my friend Damien We all three go out to lunch And then I bring Richard back to my office On campus and I interviewed for about two-and-a-half hours in the transcript of that conversation is is a

34:27 is in the book now when i sat down to talk to him i wasn't certain if anything he was gonna say. What can a tie into damian experiences that it could very well be that would have nothing to do with at all but before we can even. Roach the subject everything richard says just lines up perfectly with every day and occurred being me this point you mentioned that i saw on his own, He mentions that he got a visit from SAIC, from San Diego 10 years earlier inquiring about the technology project cameo you gotten a visit from the Navy and the Navy had come down to his laboratory in Hemet.

35:13 the laboratory that's owned by his partner, Dr. Les Berger which I've been to that same laboratory it's in the middle of nowhere in Hemet. Right my parents actually moved to Hemet not long ago and you're right it is pretty rural we'll say Exactly And so the Navy went all the way down there to the lab to see what they were doing and they seemed very interested And the fcf aic also seem very interested in yet they would never get back home after work now which is thought they were contacting if they want to collaborate with him. You find the project but no impact retreat said even before,

35:56 I asked him to tell me the story he said it was almost like they were picking his brain. And in fact even said i sometimes wonder if they stole it from me and here already at that point hired an attorney to look into exactly that, and so do these guys are more like vacuum cleaners you know this intelligence parlance for someone who Come in fix your brain text all the information like a vacuum cleaner and then just leave and so i am asking questions about the technology could you make someone think they're going crazy with this technology can you instead of just. Making someone camouflage or invisible,

36:36 Could you also create hallucinations? Could you make something appear to be something else?" And he says, oh absolutely. Yes that's in the patent, the psychological warfare aspects of the technology are in the patent and I say well okay let's say you want to bombard Fidel Castro with hallucinations You could do that with this technology Oh yeah! You can make a tree look like an octopus or whatever I said, ìCould you make a room seem larger on the inside than it is on the outside?î He said, ìAbsolutely. You could do that and just on and on and on point by point.î Finally after about an hour and half, I said, ìDamien has this very interesting story he wants to tell you.

37:22 First which is seen a little where you like what are they springing on me and so damian he start telling your story. And the first richard seems a little skeptical until the point were we're gaming gets to the point where he mentions being able to see the guy in the mirror, But not visually and richard leans forward. Any goes yes you got because they were there were camouflaging the suit but not the reflection in the mirror and then damien mentioned that sometimes he will be able to see them visually but only like, in the form of these little dots in the air like people with migraine headaches sometimes see oars in the air and Damien sometimes suffers from migraines. He said that's kind what it looked like, it was kind of like these little dots in there and Richard leans forward and goes that's exactly what it looks like when technology is not working correctly and at that point Richard

38:17 understood that Damien was telling him something that he had actually seen. That this lined up, I mean that's like a detail that no one would know except for someone who had actually worked with the technology and it was Richard's theory that he is the one who broached if you read the transcript you see he's the one of you who brings this up because It seems to me like they were using you as a test subject. I remember at the time telling a friend of mine that all this was happening and she said, why won't they just test this technology on Camp Pendleton? Why go outside the military base? Well it makes sense. You want to test in in real world scenario. Just the other day I heard on the news that they were doing from Camp Pendleton with the bomb squad from Camp Pendleton came to LAX to do all these real world tests

39:04 of basically role-playing scenarios, of diffusing a bomb at the airport. They try to do it in a scenario that is as much like the Do the real world scenario is possible so in this case it's perfect you wanna see if someone can see your invisibility technology and what point does the technology breakdown when can he see you and you want to test that out of situation in a situation that's that's really live in random before are you put people in harms way in the middle east.

39:39 You want to know if that technology is going to break down in some junkies apartment in Pacific Beach before it breaks down in Osama Bin Laden's bunker in the Middle East. They seem to pick on people who are on the edges, on the fringes of society. Drug addicts, homeless people, people who already have a history maybe mental problems that way if they start talking about it, who's going to believe them? And then it just so happens that in this case Damien they happen to pick a guy whose best friend from high school not only already had written about conspiracies in Paranoia magazine but I was also

40:25 thirty second degree free mason who was in the same lodge is the guy from whom they stole the technology now no one could predict that i mean that level of security beyond comprehension. So after we talk to richard, Damien i wouldn't we went to a period where i was not in touch with damian for awhile maybe like over here he moved up to humble. Where is mom living she lives an area called the lost coast and you move there with his mom, and for while everything seem to get off you staying in san francisco for awhile and notice that it would

41:08 The harassment would start only when there was a big Occupy protest or something like that in the neighborhood, which happened often because it was San Francisco. So on those days he learned to stay indoors but if you went outside suddenly there they were again, you know like 19 people following him. For some reason it would sync up with these protests almost as if well there's this protest going on you know whoever is on the watch list you know they need to be surveilled at this particular point in time so he moves from San Francisco too humble and staying with his mom it starts picking up again uh... he starts feeling metallic taste in mouth again that type of thing

41:47 did the second he moved into that area because of course as we know in humble there's a lot of marijuana farmers there and secondly moved in suddenly the drones started carrying again an all the local marijuana farmers thought that they were surveilling their their marijuana farms so it really rush out with her rifles and start shooting at these things uh... in in the air but they also old damien indeed do you think it didn't appear until you know you can move you So he stays there for a while and then eventually he got into his van, and he moved elsewhere. I recently spoke to him not long ago, and he said that it had started up again big time so it seems to go on these waves where they'll pull back a bit, and I don't know if that's part of the whole plan you know? To make you think that everything is going

42:42 going to go back to normal and then they suddenly yank the rug out from under you again. It seems as if it never ends, essentially once you're on the list and then you really have to think which is why I think Emilio is an important book because anyone who reads this understands the importance of it. You have to kind of, as Theodore Sturgeon said, the science fiction writer Theodore Sturgeon his advice to writers was asked in the next question particularly science fiction writers always ask the next question but not just writers anyone should do that always asked the next question like what's with the next question beyond this scenario when we see something like what happened in brussels. Where you had two brothers who were on the american terrorist watch list, how they were able to initiate this massive attack one have to stop and say okay limit this damien is doing nothing

43:36 It was a pretty harmless person, except for the fact that he was involved in drugs. But that wasn't harming anyone. He can't go to the bathroom without nine jarheads following him in and yet these two brothers who were on American Watch List could initiate a major terrorist attack? How is that possible unless they want them actually pull off the attack. That's the next question that one has to ask after you read Camilio, is the only conclusion you can come to is that it's not possible. The only way someone like the San Bernardino attacks where the woman was actually on Facebook announcing the fact of what she was going to do and saying her alliance with various terrorist organizations on Facebook and yet they were able to pull off these attacks in San Bernardino but

44:26 But damien can walk down the street by hamburger it doesn't those two things can exist in the same reality and i also noticed on your blog you had written about that uber driver case i mean of course some people are just crazy which is where, if the line really gets blurred but even he said that the app made him feel like a puppet and drove him to shoot the people picked up. Oh absolutely he said when I logged on to the Uber app it started making me feel like a puppet and now you have to say yourself oh well yes it's possible that he is crazy but except for the fact that all these things seem to line up with these mass shooters,

45:08 The Naval Yard shooter who carved in the letters ELF into his gun, which some people thought meant an elf. But no, ELF stands for electromagnetic frequencies. and he had the dalton the guy at the the kalamazoo shooter said that the horned cow head of a devil would appear in his phone screen give him an assignment any said that uh... according to please report jason dolan told authorities quota feels like it is coming from the phone itself you didn't know how to describe that he also described something quote like an artificial presence unquote the report that and things like that go

45:50 Go away back i was being interviewed by tessa dick. Add tessa dick with the she's the widow of phil k dick right science fiction writer wrote balance and scanner darkly in, Do android dream of electric sheep and she was a fascinating interview. At some point she was extensively interviewing me about camellia but it's at the same point i began interviewing her and she told me about in the seventies when she until they were living in orange county, Is the same scenario that these neighbors moved in with weird equipment suddenly voices were coming at them through the radio. Saying insulting things to fill dick the radio would play even though wasn't plugged into the wall all of seemingly sort of paranormal phenomena if you read till dex book valance,

46:43 Boy it sure sounds like you are the target individual and that book is worth reading for that reason also his book a standard darkly which all about the drug. Scene in california right in the seventies you know i spent weeks at the future of the science fiction novel but clearly about his own experiences in california seventy, And that book which is probably one of the best drug novels ever written in that book that the narc the main character bob arthur has this suit. That, It's a skin tight suit that basically camouflages your features. And I remember telling Tessa Dick, and she was amused by this, that at one point Damien said to me, I wish that Phil Dick had written happier novels because it's clear that they're just reading a bunch of Phil Dick books and manifesting them all in three dimensions in reality? So maybe if he'd written utopian novels we would be all living like a happier life!

47:45 You know, I was also friends with Walter Boart who wrote Operation Mind Control which was like the classic text. It was the first book to really write about the American MKUltra mind control projects in any deep sort of way and he published that book in 78' I believe. Richard Condon who wrote The Mentoring Candidate wrote the introduction to that book and if you read Operation Mind Control You can see the origins of all this and fortunately because i was already friend with walter i was sort of in a position to. Be receptive story that the damien telling me i think most people would assume that he was just going crazy even with my background and that was my initial assumption,

48:36 Yeah, but you had a little bit of context which definitely helped absolutely and you know some people say that these specific techniques Which I wasn't familiar with at all the whole gang stalking phenomenon despite the fact that i Written articles for Paranoia magazine and Steam Shovel Press in these sort of conspiracy zines That grew out of the American landscape in the early 90s. Despite that i had never really heard of gang stalking i've heard of my control i'd hurt if you don't control candy jones and all that kind of scenario. Yeah gang talking oh sorry i was gonna say gang stalking is a weird one and it's one of the more recent terms that i've heard in this whole realm and haven't heard very many cases of detail but one thing i thought was interesting in this case. Was damien mentions a few times where he throws his drink at one these guys following em or does some other over the top behavior and these people don't react because again seems like they have strict orders not to engage the target,

49:39 David Steinbrook Yes, you can actually have fun with this. If you can break past the barrier which at some point Damien did of thinking that you're going crazy, you can actually have fun with it but one point one of these guys was following him all the way around town so Damien went into a 7-Eleven and got like 40 ounce blue raspberry slurpee and as he's walking across the street, the guy following Damien turned around threw the slurpee in his face and called a guy a faggot. Now normally some military looking dude in San Diego would not react kindly to A having a blue raspberry slushie thrown on his face and B being called a faggot. The guy did nothing

50:23 Just stared at him blue raspberry dripping down his face and that's not explainable. And one point when you guys in the supermarket following around the supermarket to be managed to get behind me grab on those tinfoil, Those big aluminum tin foil thing and just started sticking in the back. In the supermarket check out line and the guys to stay there to serve a growing do himself. You've been told not to interact with them yeah i love those elements and it is such a real wild story but i wanted to revisit lee little bit of course he's the catalyst for all this you go to wall from camp pendleton steals this laptop that's got the dod logo on these night vision goggles a pistol off a dead iraqi general in this truck.

51:17 He opens the laptop you mentioned that he pulls up a couple files marked top secret and above top secret and show some blueprints for vehicles that Damien didn't recognize but, probably didn't get too much information there but. I mean this guy does anything happen to ever show up again after their initially arrested in then given at six day of grave kind of interrogation does lee ever come back in the picture do you know what happened to him? I have no idea what happened to my blood to know i just don't ask me this question when i was on a show darkness radio which is out of minneapolis and the guy asked me will wait a minute you know shouldn't you be able easily figure out how many people go, hey wall from campbell named lear doyle you know could you figure that out.

52:02 If they donít want you to know it, you canít find it out. As Richard Chalmers says because he hired a lawyer to try and prove that his technology had been stolen, the problem is what you really need is someone on the inside who will say ìYou need this exact serial numberî And then when you have that exact number then you can use the information request and get. Information back otherwise it's like your just shooting blind and if they don't want to have something they'll make up some reason why, they can release it or they will give it to you in a car black i mean i had a situation where.

52:42 I read about this in the first book cryptosketology last chapter in that book is called collaborating with the dead and it's also weird. Story of this happened before the whole thing i went to high school with a guy whose name was swear to god his name was steve seaman, add steve seaman what sort like the valedictorian big man on campus he went on to graduate top class All american boy you know right and he was a senior when i was a freshman. So we didn't know each other, but we had a mutual friend. And Steve Seaman ended up working for the FBI in the mid-90s and within a couple of years he rises through the ranks and he's in charge of the white collar crime detail, the FBI in LA. He was the head of the investigation into the DNC fundraising scandal that was going on in the middle of the Clinton administration

53:45 Wow. And he, I open up the newspaper one day on December 1st 1997 and I see that Steve Seaman has shot himself in the head at the beach of Dockweiler in Manhattan Beach inexplicably, he went to the beach. He left a note for his roommate who's an LAPD officer told him he was he had been arrested the night before for carjacking and then he grabs his gun goes to in the middle of this investigation investigating the Clinton administration. He goes down to the beach and blows his brains out in front of cops

54:26 That's not the first time people investigating the Clintons have suddenly wanted to kill themselves. Yeah, absolutely So Steve Seaman I started looking into it and this is very bizarre You know so I initiated a FOIA request. I got all those files from the autopsy I wrote what I did was I did an experiment? I wrote two letters to the FBI I wrote two letters. One letter, I wrote under my own name and

55:02 And that letter is completely nuts. It's like a crazy man wrote it, and it's actually quite hilarious if you go read the book and read the letter I mean just insane. Then I wrote a second letter that was very completely sane, very reasonable and hit all of the points that your supposed to hit when your requesting files very specific and very professional. That letter I gave my friend who was friends with Steve Seaman and he sent that letter under his name. And then I sent the other letter under my name, and we waited like maybe six weeks in between The letter that my friend sent a very reasonable very scholarly journalistic rational letter He gets a letter back saying we have no information on Steve Seaman zero files The one that was the nut letter that I wrote? I got 272 pages

55:58 So in other words they chose to send the nutcase all the files right. and they sent the rational guy nothing. They told the rational guy that they had no information to give, so that's an example of how they operate. So no, I don't know what happened to Lee Doyle. Every time i do one of these interviews Maybe Lee himself comes forward to say what happened to him. I don't know if he can, you know? Yeah exactly yeah He might be in Guantanamo or some other black site You know they found that one in Chicago not long ago They discovered that this building that they thought was just out hidden in plain sight actually inside was a Black site for the local police to take people that they couldn't take to jail I'm sure those are in every major city and Lee's probably hanging out in one of those still

56:57 Right, right. Yeah or he's hanging out with Steve Seaman and Vince Foster. Right sleeping with the fishes. Oh man! The last rule that I wanted to ask you here... You know you mentioned synchronicity played a big role in all this coming together and the book and story does reveal a lot obviously the military intelligence organizations didn't sign off on this one did you have any problems getting this book and story out? I had a lot of problems getting the book and the story out. First, I published a small segment of an interview with Schonger. I sent that to a number of magazines who I thought wouldíve been interested in it like Wired and magazines like that.

57:40 My entire experience of sending out short stories and articles, you always get a response even if it's just a form letter. With this, there was no response as if they never received it. The same thing with the article, ìStrange Shadows of Homeland Securityî and then the same thing with Camilio the book. I think he was just because a lot of the people who did respond to Camellio in the manuscript format when I would send it out, I think some of them thought it was a joke. That I was just pulling their leg or something you know? To me there are stories about when the impressionists first started painting and that particular style, a lot of people go to gallery and they weren't able to see any images in the painting

58:27 They just thought it was just random blob the point of paint and only a few people were able to actually see what was supposed to be seen in the impressionist painting, it's almost like that there is like a certain segment population but just they can't even see if they don't wanna see it and they don't have anything to do with. Well awesome i love the book and it's been great talking to you before let you go is there anything else you wanted to tell the people maybe about the book where to get your own website or anything else she got going on beyond this new book. The website is cryptosketology dot com c r y p t o s c a t o l g y cryptoscatology dot com,

59:10 and then you can buy Camellio either from Amazon or you can buy it directly from Or Books. And I think, yeah, you get a discount if you order it through Or Book in its in both in print form and you can get the ebook which is cheaper. It's also on...it's audio that you can get as an audiobook as well. So that's orbooks.com If you just go there and click on the catalog, you'll see the book there, Camellio Very cool. Well, thanks again man amazing story hopefully that this doesn't put me on the list and maybe we can do it again when when Hollywood haunts the world comes out but until then take care man Okay Thank you all right you got it

59:50 There it is guys, boom. I love that story and i can understand how at first it might come off as paranoid ramblings from a heroin addict but it isn't there's just too many other pieces Robert called Lita himself the license plates and all of Richard's confirmations It's crazy to think about the level of technology black budget projects The Shadow State or Breakaway Civilization whatever you want to call them The technology they might have I found it super interesting and i loved the further implications of this stuff that we talked about in the plus show where we get into even Bob Lazar, Philip Corso and how this and some of the local corporations in San Diego might tie-in to the mill labs thing.

1:00:32 You know a lot of people say my labs but I say mill labs because this is supposed to be short for military abductions so i'm sticking with mill labs but it really is interesting and eerie to know that I am so close to some of the stuff. But Camellio is a great book, the transcripts of several conversations are in it. Those are some of my favorite parts but Robert does write with a great sense of humor too so it's an easy and fun read while also getting a peek into electronic harassment gang stalking and some of this tech they might be using I thought made for a great show So do think about signing up for THC Plus if you agree. Also, I mean end of the month there was a Money Bomb winner just haven't heard back from him yet but i'd say this has been a strong month for THC we started with Joshua Cutchin and the Trojan Feast episode talking about the food and drink offerings of aliens fairies in Sasquatch that was a fun show David Rodriguez and The Education Conspiracy and The History Of Forced Schooling

1:01:33 Very near and dear to my heart. Also, we brought Gordon White the maestro of modern chaos magic back to talk more about starships understanding non-human logic and entity influence throughout history And what that looks like really pushed my understanding of magic and entity communication bit further. And last week, Dr Richard Allen Miller, Magic Military Intelligence and Higher Consciousness that guy is quite a trip but he says some really interesting things and he was around at a time that I really wish i had a better window into so to talk to someone of that generation alone is fun to me

1:02:15 But all good shows, all have an extra second hour that you might not have heard if you don't have Plus. Consider it! Help support the show and further entertain yourself. And I would say learn stuff too right? We learn stuff...I think so. So just go over to TheHigherSideChatsPlus.com to do that. Then you can also get the Plus shows on the iPhone app if your using that I think i'm going to work on another clip that I can just put at the end of the free show that goes over everything. That I should be taking the time to say every show because I still get the same questions about PLUS and things like who sings these closing songs and how can I get them? They are artists I've hired to cover songs, and I've switched some of the lyrics myself they are all free to download on the PLUS site and PLUS members do you get full access to the archives... Another question I get not all of them were in the RSS feed

1:03:08 For really old shows you do need to get the mp3s from the website or the app directly but yes, you can get all that too. There's getting to be so much information to give and I just am not consistent enough about giving it So i'm going to work on just a nice little clip to put at the end of the show bada-bing bada boom But if you do have any questions about getting Plus or confusion about how it might work, you can go to thehighersidechatsplus.com and click on the Frequently Asked Questions and Help link from the menu bar gives you a lot of good information or email the Higher Side Chats team at gmail dot com And I'm sure we can clarify whatever it might be that needs clarification

1:03:50 Also, remember that the great Conspiratees sale of 2016 is going on right now. Shirts are less than 12 bucks and I'm trying to clear out what i have here at the house so I will personally mail you those shirts if you get the ones that are on sale until they're gone. conspiratees dot net Big thanks again to Robert Guffey and all this month's awesome guests Damien, if you're out there I wish you luck buddy. Stay safe You've had a hell of a ride, i will say that And that's probably it for me from the seedy shadow states coastal paradise Your move Invisible Midgets your fucking move Oh no... ...You see The world isn't random It's attached to puppet strings Control over

1:04:46 The 9 to 5 is trying to steal ya Now don't that job seem silly? Hello, can you hear me Or should I play back recordings From some spying agency Wish we were younger and free I'll be thankful when it's all exposed, the vast conspiracy There is such a difference between us and the damn brush I Hello from the higher side

1:05:37 They're calling out a thousand crimes. They'll tell you the story of everything that's been done, and they'll call out deception for the web that's been spawned Hollow from the higher side The earth is hollow inside They'll tell you about something that no one else will Have you heard about Saturn? Have you heard about the real since long, oh no

1:06:28 They're cartoons It's so typical of me to talk about the stuff I'm sorry that's good and well Did you ever hear the argument That nothing really happens? It's no secret And at the best it's plugged It's doubling your time Hello from the higher side They're calling out a thousand cries

1:07:11 They'll tell you something the elite have done And they'll call out deception from a web that's been spawned Hollow from the higher side Challenging your paradise And I'll tell you something That the battle's begun But we can't fight it with violence The mind's where it's won At the war Oh, at the war At the war

1:08:14 Hello from the higher side They're calling out a thousand crimes They'll tell you something The elite have done And they'll call out deception Of the web that's been spun Hello from the higher side I'm challenging your paradigm And i'll tell you someday that the battle's begun But we can't fight it with violence The mind's where it's won, that's the problem