Nick Redfern | Alien Abductions, MK Ultra, & The Government Files

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01:55 Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls. Welcome to the Hireside Chats! Today we are dusting off that old motif of alien abduction with a guest who's been with us since episode 25 way back in 2012 And yes, abduction by strange beings in the night is still an unsolved situation that we may never have a complete picture of but many many people have told very similar tales that generally go like this Somewhere in darkness and isolation they feel an eeriness in the air. They see bright lights pierce the silent darkness as they approach In a haze of confusion, they find themselves taken aboard an unrecognizable craft Strange beings start to tinker under their hood reassuring The Taken that they're fine And this is all for their own good And finally there dropped back off in the simulation right where they left off confused disoriented and missing a chunk of time that defies logic

02:49 It's the rough outline to a pattern many of us have heard about hundreds if not thousands of times, most likely with many more keeping quiet about their similar experiences out of embarrassment or without even having a clear enough recollection to speak up. And while we might not be much closer to figuring out what that all is, today's returning guest Nick Redfern tackles a slightly different question in his latest book Top Secret Alien Abduction Files. And that question is... What does the government know about this whole thing? Because while we're told it's all silliness and they've never had an interest in looking deeper, Nick has been digging up documents that show a very different approach and attitude to these encounters

03:30 And they offer some insights that do help us fill in some blank spots on the map. So let's do the damn thing, The King of Creepy! The Sultan is Strange! The Apex of Paranormal Writers! My friend and yours Nick welcome back to the higher side Hey Greg hows it going? Better every day my man and I just appreciate how long you've been stopping by to talk about this weird world You always seem find a new angle that pushes the needle just a bit closer to knowing what the hell is going on with some of this stuff I believe this is your 50th book, my last show of the year. It's all working out and i love the angle of parsing through and just drawing attention to huge government files that a lot of people are probably surprised even exist so kudos to you! And to kick this off...I am curious because a lot of these cases go back to the 50s 60s and 70s

04:20 Did you write this now because you're actually maybe able to get better access to documents once enough time has passed? What was part of it i mean whenever i'm writing a book you know what planning on writing a book you always want to come up with something which hopefully you know he's gonna give the reader, something new to talk about and think about. And over the years and decades i mean there's been dozens and dozens of books written on alien abductions maybe even hundreds And i didn't just want to go over all ground but the abduction phenomena is always sort of intrigued me interested me and i thought well. Turn angle which i could talk about that hasn't really been sorted extensively don't get into, add this was about eighteen months ago two years ago something like that and so i thought

05:12 What angles are there? And over the years, you know I've got snippets of stories from abductees which seems to suggest that they were under some sort of surveillance if you like. So i dug out those older cases that I'd got and then followed up on a bunch of other threads, and dug and dug and dug. And so on to the point where eventually there was enough material to put a good solid case together that the agencies really do take an interest in a concern in the abduction phenomenon even if they're not fully sort of conversant understanding of exactly what's going on

05:50 Yes man that's a great summary i think this is a really solid angle for new book what does the government know about the stuff i think people might be a little bit surprised to hear the numbers but how big are some of these files on these experience there's hundreds of pages in some cases right well yeah if you go back to the nineteen fifties for example which I talk about in the book with the contactee movement, which came before the abductee phenomenon kicked off. The reason i mentioned the contactees in the book was to demonstrate that there are files that show government agencies have a long-standing interest in claims of alien human interaction and contacts and to give you one example from the 50s George Van Tassel

06:40 who was one of the big players and having UFO contact, supposedly being taken on board UFOs and so on. His FBI file actually runs to just over 300 pages! So you're talking about a huge amount of material collated and put together on a man who claimed alien human contact. So it's important to note that these files are not sort of hearsay or leaked documents, you know which could be questionable legitimate or not but in many respects in fact not all the cases in the book most of them the documentation that I've got is through the Freedom and Information Act of the US and UK

07:26 So in other words, you know we're on solid ground because we're talking about genuine official documents Yes, and I'm glad you brought up the van tassel saga because i think a lot of people are vaguely familiar with it but here in san diego whenever i drive up north. I usually can see the integrator on from the highway and always mean to plan a trip but i guess i didn't really realize that was so connected this thing i guess i thought it was just new age place i know they do sound baths by appointments. I've had a friend go there and said it was a really great experience, so it's on my list but I never get down that far now. Now I might because I think it's very interesting that it's connected to Van Tassel. Can you tell us a little bit about the Integratron and how it folds into his saga? Well, it all goes back to Van Tassel himself. George Van Tassel was an interesting guy

08:22 Indeed the prey flying saucer area where to use aircraft which is run by how it feels actually became good friends with howard hughes and developed an interest in the subject of aviation. Now what happened was that in the late 1940s Van Tassel and his family moved to the town of Landers, California which for people who might be wondering it's out in the California desert not too far from Joshua Tree. They moved to this one particular area that is known as Giant Rock. And the reason why it's called Giant Rock is because the main sort of thing you'll see when you drive into the area, is this gigantic huge rock which looks like a classic meteorite that sort of slammed into the ground from outer space but actually isn't and still is a large rock that was native to the area so to speak. And Van Tassel and his family

09:21 in a very strange fashion, they actually built an underground home for themselves beneath this gigantic rock. Imagine something like a nineteen fifty version of the Flintstone home it kind of like that but he was very skilled guy and i said he built this hollowed out. Home deep under the ground deep on the giant rock and had electricity and hot and cold water all plumbing everything is like a really cool futuristic home and it was during this period that van tassel claimed that on a number of occasions he saw UFOs over the skies of giant rock and landers in that whole area to the extent that on one occasion, one of these craft came down and landed. And it was described as being like a typical classic 1950's era flying saucer, like a sort of silvery circular craft. And reportedly

10:21 there was this very human looking entity came out of the craft, long hair. That was the only difference really was that the guy had long hair you know which the guys back then in the 50's certainly didn't wear and there was this exchange almost like a philosophical exchange between this alien and Van Tassel and like so many of the early contactees he was warned about About the parallels of atomic war and how we need to lay down our atomic bombs etc. And they encouraged, Van Tassel to look further into the UFO subject, even to suggest that he should put on yearly conventions as a means of bringing the whole issue to the attention of the public. And that's exactly what Van Tassel did after having received numerous more visitations and he put on a yearly conference at Giant Rock which

11:19 which attracted audiences i'm not exaggerating now between ten and twelve thousand people at the height of the interest in his claims. Now you know if you look at your phone conference attendance is today, you be lucky to get three four five hundred people you know that's what we are pretty good a conference with the guy said band pass always getting ten to twelve thousand people and He would put on these seminars where you'd have sort of the leading figures in 1950s ufology coming along and speaking in this huge outdoors environment. And he really did become a significant figure in 1950s ufology, but like a lot of the contactees politics and religion came into the

12:09 equation as well and the FBI attended a number of these seminars and lectures, particularly noted his claims about how things like Noah's Ark for example he said it wasn't just an old boat according to the Bible. He said it was actually a fleet of flying saucers if you like that when the flood hit came down and salvaged as much of the people in the animals they could and he said thats how developed. He also put an argument together as to how he felt that the star of Bethlehem was a UFO and, of course talking about altering mainstream religion in 1950s USA into UFO stories you can see why the authorities would sit up and take notice and they certainly did. The reason why the file was created

13:03 I got you said that actually is probably most associated with the integrity on which is this two story building which he almost built on his own yard at any help at all and to demonstrate how skillfully was it building things. Hey i'm trying to sell. does not comprise of any nails screws bolts or anything like that it's all purely what age pace, interlocking to another and keep you all in place you know i need to really intrigued instruction how to imagine. tell stories you know people got walking and tramping around upstairs in the state, what is no problems with it all every page just purely perfectly into lock on the plan was according to a space brother friend where's that technologies would be provided to him that would allow to massively extend the human life span.

14:00 But he died in 1977 before he could continue this work. The legacy still lives on and people still flock to the Integra Tron and Giant Rock all the time, almost like a spiritual trick if you like that kind of thing. That's a great summary! And of course that contact in the desert conference is up in that area where it was before it moved I think? That's where we first met and meet space for just a brief moment... It's just interesting because i knew a little bit about the details of his visitation, i just didn't know he was given the plans for the integrator on or that howard hughes was a friend of his and you got this guy on the forefront of aviation. Going out to the desert to hang out with this other guy who got plans from an alien for some exotic technology i mean thats a sweet spot for me and you mentioned that he died before the integrator on was open

14:54 Did he die suspiciously? I've read some reports that consider his heart attack curiously timed. Well, it was up in years you know he was like pushing 70. Hmm...I guess people can look at it from different perspectives but I mean there were a lot of intrigue in his life for example mentioned How would you love people don't know that not only did he work with the aircraft company but i became good friends and on one occasion how would you actually fly out to giant rock got to make a whole family. And Mrs. Van Tassel was a really good cook, and she made these really tasty fruit pies like cherry pies and things like this. Apparently Hughes actually got sort of addicted and he would come out regularly just to eat the pies and hang out with George Van Tassel which is like a really surreal situation but kind of one that's sort of lesser known fun aspect of the story as well. Right! That is cool

15:55 I just like that aspect when people in the forefront of technology or exotic technologies cross paths with the paranormal because it touches on, i guess both the strangeness of these general experiences and practical conspiracy because i think its pretty obvious we've been quarantined to oil based everything. That's what the robber barons had control of so hemp was suppressed in exchange for plastics and lumber alcohol as a fuel was suppressed in exchange for gasoline natural medicine was discredited and attacked in exchange for petrochemicals. That's your normal capitalist bullshit. But then you can add in a story like Van Tassel, add in Tesla who said he was getting messages about his technology Apparently they say the transistor was derived from whatever happened at Roswell It really does feel like some cosmic force is trying to break that quarantine for our own good or the good of the planet Or at least they were in the 50s maybe

16:54 Well, yeah I mean things were actually quite different back then because a lot of Van Tassel's communications with the entities that he spoke with and this goes for some of the other ones as well. It wasn't always that a UFO would land out in the darkness of the desert at night by giant rock sometimes it was a case of data being downloaded into his mind while he slept or when he was in like an altered state. He was very interested in sort of altered states and trans-states, that kind of thing. And he said that a lot of his communications came that way literally downloaded at high speed and even though he sort of talked about religion from the perspective of aliens kind of like with ancient aliens today from that perspective but it was also very spiritual man as well who believed in life after death

17:47 Add the ability to extend life and things like this so you know it wasn't just someone who claims to have seen flying saucers. Are anything like that very much became a lot of people i could teach in terms of sharing information and put on the conference, Yeah, it's just such an interesting saga. And along those same technological lines in your introduction to the book you equate the alien abduction phenomenon with our modern day surveillance state and it is interesting that thematically its definitely there. The implants people were experiencing then versus cell phones now I mean ultimately a smartphone is just a tracking device that does enough other stuff that we want to carry around all day for low low price of $1000

18:33 And that connection is a lot deeper than just thematic if there's any truth to the transistor coming from Roswell. In that respect, the tech does seem to have taken us to a fairly dark place Well i just started debating not just a new f o discussion but also in conspiracy discussions you know the way which we are becoming more and more like a surveillance type society now you know relation to alien abductions You hear about implants under the skin tracking devices, aliens ability to know where the abductees are at any given time even if they move homes etc. And you're right when you look at today's technology I don't have any issues or problems with the technology itself but i think it like a lot of technologies in our world today that if they use them the right way that great if they use them wrong ways its not good at all

19:32 You go back sort of ten years and more you'll see a lot of material about some point we can all be ordered to have implants whether we like it or not. But i point out the paper as you did that today really does no need for anybody in government to implant us at all because if you haven't got an iphone well at least most people go to smart phone is not an iPhone and anyone who actually that system. Your phone you know they'll say arguably what books you buy on amazon what your rating habits are,

20:12 Where you book your next vacation your doctors and dentists address and phone numbers etc. So in other words, you can make an argument that we're already implanted not with literally implants but re implanted with a tracking device in our pockets, add the technology is great but when it goes from being at all that is very useful to becoming something that can be basically use the tracking device to see what people doing then the technology is being used in the wrong way, it's how the world is right now but for me i got a smart phone but i don't use it twenty four seven you know i like to work nine to five monday to friday.

20:58 i've got come from the laptop goes into sleep mode till the next day do any work at the weekend and turn my message gonna be needed to my smartphone off at five, add it back on until nine the next morning i just switch off because i like that approach you know i like to do the work in the right thing. Research i'm not a good time we can see now and get burned out so I don't use my smart phone is the be all and end of everything wonderful when i need to add.

21:37 I don't feel the need to see how many likes i've got on Facebook every 10 minutes. It really does go off from 5 o'clock till 9 the next morning." Well, I'm not surprised man you are notoriously disciplined and you have to be to have this be your 50th book it is really impressive and I bet if the CIA knew you could bug everyone's house just by having it tell you the weather and ordering products when you talk to it they would have had this done a long time ago! Well, there's so many things today that have the ability to be used as a surveillance tool. You know smart TVs, Alexa...

22:16 iPhones, smartphones. You know the list goes on really people automatically think of laptops desktops but the list really is going Indeed more every day and so we frame this thing up to where we have these nice alien visitations in the contactee experiences of the 50s like Van Tassel's story and then we transition as the book does to the more aggressive and invasive abductees of the 60s. What more can you say about this transition? Is there a certain case that you consider the turning point or the bridge between these two eras?"

22:55 Well yeah that's a good point because for people who may be new to the whole UFO subject they may well not realize that the little dwarfish black eyed big headed greys which are you know, a staple part of UFO legend and lore today. A lot of people might not realize if they're new to the subjects that the greys weren't even in sight in the 1950s and they only really started i have a presence in the early sixties onwards now prior to that. Just about all of the contact is described and cancers with extremely human looking entities and as i said earlier, mostly long hair but if they drop their off you know put it back by really would look just like us but

23:41 Throughout the 50s for the most part everything was dominated by the contactees and just to give you an example of how much surveillance of the contactees was done. the list of contactees who have files on them, it's somewhere between about 15 and 20 of the contactees in the 1950s. The high profile ones like George Adamski, George Van Tassel, Truman Bethlehem, Orfeo Angelucci people like this who wrote books, who lectured all of them had files and nearly all those files have been declassified

24:17 But things started to change in the latter part of the 1950s, and certainly one case that really kind of straddled the Contact T era and the abduction era was the 1957 Brazilian case with a guy named Antonio Vilas-Boas which is one of the more controversial cases at that period. Right, that is exactly the case I hoped you'd bring up. Because one thing I learned about this book that might disappoint the hardcore alien lovers out there but it's super fascinating to someone who is intrigued by the full scope of MKUltra is the added subtext to this Antonio Villabóes account from Brazil. It's a pretty wild story but

25:02 I'd never heard about this Bosco Nel Del Covic guy and what he had to say about it. Can you take us through the story and the Bosco element? Well basically i'm telling your bill is with somebody who lived on a farm in brazil with the family, and be like to become a successful lawyer in brazil but at the time when he was in his early twenties you still living at home and living on the family farm. I need to work in light one night in the field any saw this lights coming towards him in the sky didn't know what it was, certainly wasn't used to seeing any kind of aircraft or vehicles in the sky you know flying over the farm in this remote area.

25:48 but he sort of stood and stared, and this thing got closer and closer. And it panicked Villas Boas, and he sort of fled towards the farm. He hadn't really got more than about 100 feet or so when he suddenly started to feel sick and ill almost as if we've been dosed with something and when I get to that point again later, you know that may well have been what happened. He started to feel groggy and his legs went weak and he fell to the ground and he didn't pass out completely but he was in sort of a really groggy semi-awake state...and he later told a Brazilian UFO researcher Alave Fontes, who told this story to him, said that he was taken on board the

26:36 this strange craft by these three guys in flight suits who took him on board. All his clothes were removed and he was put into like a very small shower, almost like a box-like shower then he was taken to another room and while he waited there suddenly this beautiful human looking woman walked into the room and made it very clear that she wanted to have sex with him. Hello! Yeah It started to come around fairly significantly from the drug estate whatever i have a faxed email out the three men to take on board. Restart it's aware of and he said that you really did have sex with this woman, add then she pointed to the sky and then he was sort of unceremoniously slung off the craft which talk to the skies now

27:30 In the one sense, you have the contactee angle because the entities, the beings whatever you want to call them look very human-like and the ship itself he said it came down and landed. UFO landings were happening and reported far more back in the contactee era than they When they are today you don't really get many cases at all of people saying ufo landing today that was another component of the contact angle, what's the big difference of course with that unlike band hassle and a damn scale these other people. Who were invited on board i just very friendly situation

28:12 This was clearly an abduction, a kidnapping. Although it wasn't done by the Greys it still was an abduction so that's why this case is important and significant because it really does sort of as I said straddle both arena so to speak and that was the story until 1978. And it's a case which really does split people into different categories you know, the idea of being taken on board for a lot of people and kidnapped and abducted is one thing... You know for a hot space babe to suddenly come in and say I want

28:49 I want to have sex with you know for some of the people in ufology in the fifties and sixties that was just too much but nothing also because society wasn't quite as open then. Add it is now they just didn't wanna deal with the case, i saw them barristing and something that you wanna talk about so at least part of a story didn't really get coverage that perhaps they should've done But in 1978, a UFO researcher named Rich Reynolds and Rich is still on the UFO scene. He's very active on the scene today and he has a blog called UFO Conjectures so if you want to look up Rich Reynolds' UFO conjectures you'll see what he's still doing today but back in 78, Rich was contacted by a man named Bosko Nedeljkovic. Now Nedeljkovic was someone who grew up in Yugoslavia

29:40 But there were rumors that he had connections to Soviet intelligence and all sorts of sort of secret societies and things like this. And, he approached Rich Reynolds in a way that really... To this day I don't think Rich fully understands why he was the one who was targeted but Nedeljkovic basically said to Rich that he could tell him the true and false story of what really happened when when Bilas Boas was taken on board the craft. Now if you go back and you read Bilas Boas' original testimony that he gave to Dr Olavo Fontes, this early UFO researcher in Brazil what Bilas Boas actually said was that the craft... He said if you imagine you've got an egg and you're able to sort of lengthen that egg into like a rectangular egg

30:33 He said that was the shape of it and Villas-Boas also said that there was something spinning at high speed on top of what he thought was a UFO but it was going around at high speed in a circle. And he said that it was actually making a loud noise and it was going whoop, whoop, whoop like that i am not a college center which reynolds that what he was taken on board with actually onto helicopter now you know people would say well, you can't afford your phone but i just said if you read his exact account he said. it was a nice thing but all the interest of like a rectangle and what is that sounds like the rating of the road to the helicopter, add this circular things spinning at furious speed on top you know you can make your case with the rotor blades.

31:24 Now the story that natal college told rich reynolds was that he being metal coverage was part of a program it was like an option to them kyle now i am kay ultra, where is one of the early cia programs designed to manipulate and control the human mind all sorts of different technologies we use. and i recorded to nettle cove itch one of the projects are mk ultra what's the use the ufo subject, how does that mean to say how people's minds could be altered in other words if we can make people believe they're saying aliens we can maybe make the russians believe that can see anything but wait want them to say.

32:19 So it's really like a Cold War experiment using members of the public against their will or their knowledge and using the UFO motif as a reason to do this. And according to the story that, as these helicopters swoop low above the Villas Boas himself that they release mind-altering aerosol not so much psychedelic but certainly a mind altering aerosol technology which floored it within seconds but it was one that was designed to actually wear off quite quickly in other words, it's designed to disable physically and mentally the targeted person. And according to Nettle-Kovich a number of these sort of faked alien events were undertaken primarily

33:07 again to say how mind-altering technologies could be used but to do so under a UFO ruse, so to speak. Now of course the big question is do we believe Billis Boas literally or do we believe Nedlkovich literally? You know and I guess will never really know that all coverage died a few years ago and bill is dead as well so you know it's really one man's account vs another man's account but when you read the story. metal colleges actually does make a lot of sense you know in terms of the craft that's bill is both story groggy, where did i stay and this sort of question how many events are real ufo events and how many of them might be staged events designed to cast out new and bizarre technologies.

34:01 Yes it is a very curious thing and i'm inclined to believe bosco nettle kovac because you mentioned the book that he did actually. Work for the us agency of international development at that time and i guess they have a connection to the cia and they were working in south america so a lot of the pieces do fit, add also there's element like you mention the sexual stuff it is Definitely an element in play that sometimes a sensationalist story is created to cover up and uncomfortable truth so this kind of. Alien interaction was happening occasionally which you also know,

34:45 They carried out this type of stuff because they were concerned about some real cases that happen over in italy i think so its not like we're saying there are no alien encounters but, it makes perfect sense the cia would engage and something like this and it seems like bosco was at the right place at the right time for his claims to be valid. Yeah, that's an important point you bring up Greg about I'm not saying all alien abductions or even the vast majority are faked and fabricated using mind control technology. I don't believe that at all what i think is the numbers have been undertaken

35:23 as a means to use technologies to fabricate these events. It's actually quite small, but Rich Reynolds made some interesting points and he suspected or concluded that in some cases you know lot of these UFO events occur occurred in a random situation and the government was never there at the time to sort of say what was going on, i'm so rich speculated on the idea and i think it is interesting idea. The cia back then was deeply concerned how the general public was reacting responding to the ufo phenomenon and sell

36:02 Rich suggested, what if the CIA actually staged some of these events and then sat back and watched how the victims reacted? You know how did they respond to what was perceived as being an alien encounter. What was the aftermath? Did they start talking with friends? Did they start lecturing or writing books on the subject? In other words, the government may have been concerned about UFO abductions and interactions with us might well have a mind blowing, what about the profound effect on people's mindset and how they look at the world. And you know governments don't really want to sort of think outside of the box you know i wanted school work yeah you know what i mean. I think i could case can be made but psychologically like planned and orchestrated these events just say have the public

36:58 would react and they can learn a lot from staging these events and then following them watching these people, I'm saying how their lives were altered radically or not by those encounters which actually weren't real so i think a lot of it was mind games just to say how people would respond in an amazing situation. And there wouldn't be no real aliens involved but the witness wouldn't have known that so i think It really was a case of, for them being in the right place at the right time to initiate these experiments. But I think they did it because they knew there were real events going on and so the best way for the government to find out how people responded to the real events was to fabricate some as close as possible but the answers would still be the same you know in terms of getting a response from the witness and the victim

37:55 It's like counter espionage or something. It makes a lot of sense and The point is kind of that the CIA got the idea to do this because there were real things going on they didn't understand so they're like, well we gotta get ahead of this. We gotta try to duplicate it control the narrative that kind of thing classic CIA stuff and interestingly enough there is also another case in this book where the quote-unquote visitor uses the name Bosco In fact I think the report says that a bean showed up in this guy's room at night when he is disoriented and says, I am Bosco and you have just been chosen to enter the Brotherhood of Galaxies. And that sounds so goofy it sounds like CIA shit!

38:37 Well if you look back then there really was a lot of weird psychological warfare stuff going on. Now it wasn't just in relation to alien abductions but if you think about it, trying to figure out how the human mind can be altered and manipulated by doing it behind the UFO umbrella that would actually allow agencies to say well its nothing to do with us because the witness said they saw aliens so it would actually on one hand they would learn a great deal about how people are affected by UFO events but also they could hide behind the ufo

39:13 umbrella that said no one really know if any connections to government or intelligence agency so the camouflage. I'm as well but it wasn't just things like mk ultra using technologies to manipulate people, you also had alexander cia connected group called the psychological strategy board and i got all sorts of bizarre weird plans and projects to screw with the potential enemy. For example, Major General Edward Lansdale in the early 1960s he had plans to sort of disrupt the government of Cuba by projecting images of Jesus in the skies over Cuba saying turn to the United States and turn away from Castro and I'm here to help you! And in the end they

40:05 i did not go through the program because the technology just wasn't strong enough or advanced enough and they couldn't get the images right on clouds and i couldn't guarantee that clouds would be picking up. I need a ride place at the right time so they dropped it but the files on this, really weird program being declassified now and you can find them online. And they talk about how Edward Lansdale thought, well if we could project images of Jesus on the clouds and we can have loudspeakers essentially the voice of Jesus saying denounce Castro if we could successfully do that, we could overthrow the government to Cuba and everybody will think it's due to a second coming. That

40:49 That was a genuine real project that was put into place but the council because the technology wasn't there but it demonstrates how again images in the sky something coming down that wouldn't be what i really want. A lot of strange things like that going on in the fifties and always keep the door open still that that kind of thing could occur if we ever did have some epic, visitation i don't know how to take it at face value immediately and also wanna ask you so we can say some of these experiences seem genuine in summer are the cia messing with people but what more can be said about, the government's real concerns about the agenda of these implants that were being found and the underground thing that seems to come up in a lot of these cases.

41:41 This is the important thing, you know which I do want to stress is that I think the vast majority of abductions are genuine and the fabricated ones were planned and orchestrated to be remembered because they were so weird like Willis Bowers having sex with an alien things like that. The ones they chose to fabricate were the one's they knew would stay within ufology for years and people talk about them. So again it would show how people People could be manipulated even in ufology years later by obsessing and talking about these cases, you know But in terms of the real cases Which I don't think they began with the Betty and Barney Hill case as September 1961 but what I do think is that that case more than any other really Opened the doors to the abduction phenomenon and it became More and more accepted as the 60s went on

42:37 So what basically happened, September 61 you have Betty and Barney Hill driving home from Canada. They'd been on vacation and heading back to New Hampshire where they lived and saw this strange light in the sky which didn't seem to be regular aircraft almost seemed to be shadowing them through the forests of the mountains and so on And they got quite concerned by this fact There was no noise you know nothing like a helicopter they stopped the car on a couple of occasions and look out so long the white stories but cut it down. When i got home the hills found that's a journey saying to take much longer than it should have done and then in the subsequent days and weeks ahead, both of them suffered weird dreams and nightmares are being taken onto the craft but it landed and they were taking on board and subjected to medical experimentation.

43:32 Betty said that some sort of needle-like device was inserted into her navel and Barney said that they examined his teeth, then his spinal column and all sorts of things. And the story initially was kept within the family but because it caused so much stress that the Hills sought out a psychiatrist and eventually reached the media And then John fuller in nineteen sixty six wrote a book on the subject called interrupted journey. I'm from ben onwards, the whole issue of abductions slowly started to take off in the sixties although there weren't that many cases you know the worst deal if you contact anyone as well but it was really in the seventies early seventies onwards that the whole

44:19 abduction phenomenon as people think of it today. That's when it really started to kick off but in saying that I did find a number of very intriguing UK files from the early to mid 60s where people had experienced classic abduction type encounters and which one particular division of the British military called the Provost and Security Services, that they had taken a deep interest in these cases. And particularly incidents where people have been driving home late at night and they'd see like a strange light in the sky, the car would come to a sudden halt. And then next thing they knew there was time missing I talk about it in number of cases like that in the book one of them involving a guy named Ronald Wildman

45:09 This case was 1962, just one year after the Hills case in the United States. But Ronald Wildman lived in the south of England and he was taking a vehicle that had been sold to the buyer and he was taking an early drive like 3am in the morning. He saw this typical flying saucer thing come down the headlights started to flicker on the car and next thing you know he was just sat in his car and then the cost of your time. For reasons we don't know or fully understand, but the Provost and Security Services took a deep interest into this case. Wildman when he came out of this state that he was in, he just headed to the nearest police station and told the story and within no time the Provost and Security Services were on the scene wanting to know what happened and there's one interesting

46:03 little quotes within the file where one of the officers who prepared the paperwork said that Mr. Wildburn said he was muddled by the time, which suggests again like a missing time component to it and there were number of cases in the 60s that the Protestant Security Services undertook and they were clearly seeing a pattern develop In many of the cases, the people they spoke to were young girls. Some who'd been abducted out of their bedroom window another one where she had been driving home and very similar late at night to Ronald Wildman and had a similar strange encounter And she also told the Province Security Services of a nearby man Mr Griffin who'd also being taken on board one of these crafts

46:56 And these are real files which you can go and look at the National Archives just outside of London, England. And again they show that for reasons we don't fully know the Provost and Security Services were following these cases involving young girls, cars late at night and people being taken on board The Promise and Security Services, they have a different name today but they were sort of like the James Bonds of the Air Force. They would get involved in counterintelligence espionage programs and so for them to sort of focus particularly on abduction type cases suggests to me even though I can't prove it it suggests to me that they knew something about the abduction phenomenon and they may have got that from their opposite colleagues in the United States you know? I wouldn't be surprised because

47:45 The US and the UK has a long history of working together, and it wouldn't surprise me if the original early 61 cases with the Betsy and Barney Hill incident, things like that. I would be surprised if some of that data hadn't been shared with the UK intelligence services, and then they launched their own investigation. Yeah it really is pretty fascinating to get that hard confirmation of actual government interest in this stuff via the files and documents that you've seen because a lot of people are probably surprised just by that. And when it comes to, The government theories that you've seen that try to make sense of abductions

48:27 When they try to figure out what might be behind the implants or even the idea of hybrids, what are some of the things that governments have speculated about? Or maybe thought was behind the visitations. Well it's good that you use the words thought and speculation because one of the things i found, from not just the files that have been declassified but also from all the witnesses and abductees that I interviewed for the book. It is pretty clear to me although the government or government agency when we say the governments I don't mean everybody in governments sitting on this big secret

49:06 What is now government work you have agencies and within agency job little think tanks and small projects that are funded here in front of there if you don't have the relevant need to know on the relevant classification, you don't know so another words when we say the government actually talking about. Small tank organizations deeply buried with the government not many people know about what i found just about all the cases is that there's good evidence that government agencies know a lot about the subject in terms of the numbers and the basic scenario, people being kidnapped and missing time and medical experiments. That kind of thing but unless I've missed something which i don't think i have all of the evidence tends to suggest that the government may not actually know this whole

50:01 I'm really gender anymore the way to. We often think that it's a government hiding something or any governments around the world is hiding something because i know what they're dealing with and that's why the height of it i think we have got some phenomenon, They're fully aware that it's real and potentially has effects on national security issues if people are being kidnapped against their will, but I still don't think they fully understand what the agenda is and why this is all going on. And I think that's why the surveillance is going on because they're still trying after all these years to fully get to grips and grasps with why these events are occurring

50:42 Is it connected with hybrids? Are they sort of creating an army of hypnotized slaves that will be turned on one day for some specific purpose. There's all sorts of different theories and I think the government has sort of looked at all these theories, and is still thinking you know hmmm. Yeah i mean its a head scratcher but I think its really interesting the prospect that they thought possibly the implants that people have been given could be switched on at some point turning everybody into a manchurian candidate of some kind or that there were potentially real concerns that he could be making hybrids underground i mean that kinda stuff it's really interesting especially when you see some of these documents

51:28 because things will be mentioned so matter-of-factly, because when they're writing these files they're obviously not trying to be sensationalist. But you read some of these things and it's like wow! What plain terms to talk about some real epic speculation? What you almost always find that in government files you know they're not doing what i'm going to write a book and giving background description on dark and stormy night just don't say that in government documents but you need to do that. It's other way to get good understanding of how it all looks when he went down yet, yeah one of the angles that i was told was that date did worry the governments from the potential of being real what is idea of

52:13 Could they be implants not just use this tracking devices could i be used in sort of like you said like a switch on situation where all of these abductees would suddenly become mind control manchurian candidates. All we have three programs agendas to follow you know it almost feel like waking up the morning after the walking dead begins you know where You get up and everything seems normal then you suddenly say a small percentage of the population i suddenly become different overnight no, let me troll zombies but for all intents and purposes that's the scenario that some other people in government. Where were you about the idea of the paper where we're gonna be used in some fashion against their will you know it knowingly

53:02 And other people felt the fact that abductees had moved homes on multiple occasions and they still haven't these experiences, they felt they were sort of something more along the lines of a tracking device. That kind of thing it fascinates me that if we demonstrate you know that the government is interested in concerned but it's also concerning that they don't really have the answer i think that's why they have followed these various areas and not also applies to the whole issue of the hybrid you know you hear a story of hybrid children and hybrid babies.

53:38 people taken on board your phone being asked by the great to hold these babies and children almost like a bonding process because the gray seem to be completely, lacking in emotion so they use us as a parent or mother or father if you like to try and instill some kind of sensitive motion and a bond between. The mother and hybrid the high bridge have a degree of emotion which the grace say not too So again, you know just that idea itself of government people sitting around or intelligence people sitting around the table pondering on the idea of what are the hybrid children? Are they related to the black-eyed children

54:22 to realize that government agencies are concerned by tales of black-eyed children. You know, it sounds bizarre until you realize and you take a look at the whole history of this and how why the government has really come to realize it's a genuine phenomenon with a lot of odd and sometimes disturbing overtones to it Yeah and it really does get me thinking because if we had these people in the 60s on up feeling as if they were being used for reproductive purposes or to handle the hybrids, give them love so they didn't die. We should be seeing hybrid among us at this point right? I mean that was the goal even put them among us maybe the goals take them somewhere else entirely but you know couple decades have passed there'd be adults of this point

55:13 Well, some researchers – I don't mean government researchers now. Some abduction researchers do actually think that the hybrids are among us and that they are now multiple generations, that they are indistinguishable from us. For example David Jacobs in his book The Threat – the title alone tells you what it's about but he is someone who believes and concludes There are extremely human looking hybrids among us who may have infiltrated society and even government. And by infiltrate, I do mean that in sort of a sinister fashion. Now other researchers don't go with that view at all and again that just demonstrates the nature of the controversy itself but the other angle which

56:01 i don't know how many different agendas and angles followed by definitely follow the implant angle the hybrid one of your the watch goes down a pathway that a lot of people may not have thought about it is very hard one. Is the concern on the part of intelligence agencies that somehow, the abduction phenomenon seems to be connected to the human soul? And that's something that pops up quite a bit in the book in various cases I talk about where intelligence people who've gone out and interviewed abductees in sort of clandestine fashion. Not like threatening fashion but just you know we heard your experiences would you mind if we come

56:43 Talk with you and see if you can enlighten us a bit, you know They had to sign non disclosures and things like this but some of the people did actually agree too And one of the questions that often popped up was did you have any? Strange dreams like as if you were dead or if your soul was outside of your body and things like this. So again Precisely why the government might think that there's connection to the human soul is intriguing in terms of What actually think is going on one of the more darker and disturbing areas where's that the grades are not living entities themselves like biological robots which eventually wear out, i am very.

57:30 If you read the works of Nigel Koerner, he's someone who really explains this to a deep degree. But basically it comes down to the theory that the Greys not being living entities in the way we think of it are tampering with us and tinkering with us trying to understand the nature of the soul and if they can literally sort of implant themselves with souls to allow them to have an everlasting life So that goes down some really odd pathways, but if you read Nigel's books I mean he puts together like a really interesting scenario of using science to sort of extract and then implant human souls as a means to have an immortal life which the Greys as biological entities don't.

58:16 Don't know that is without doubt you know one of the more far out there is, what was also one of the areas that the intelligence people were deeply concerned about doesn't mean i will write. But they got the right answer but it does make that they were extremely concerned by that soul stealing. Yeah it is really interesting that the grades would be trying to jailbreak the human soul and it's difficult. To kinda talk about because I don't even think we fully understand what that means or what consciousness truly so you have to really know the mechanisms in which are human essence, really works what rules a place by to even know what the graze were trying to do but you could definitely see the possibility that some

59:07 Biologically created creature or an AI controlled thing would look at us and be like hey wait a minute there's something that happens after. You die where your life essence does this other whole chapter of existence i wanna know what that is and i want to see if i can peel your consciousness away and get it for myself somehow you could see how that could be possible it is fascinating Man you know you write so fast you've got to have some kind of other projects in the works i mean this is obviously been a great conversation but as we're kinda getting towards the end of the road is there any word on your next project. Yes there is, actually it's kinda sounds like I'm juggling two books at the same time but actually haven't

59:56 I got the abduction book now i'm not publish a book quite quickly but about more than a year ago i finished another book. Just read about you go where is fifty one now that company that's pretty much visible in press, i put bad out six to eight months further down the line not what actually comes on january the first area fifty one books and it already up on amazon you can see it on there You type Nick Redfern at Area 51 in Amazon, you'll see the book. So that one will be out on January 1st but it was actually finished quite a bit before the abduction book. It's just different publishers have different timeframes and so on but that one will be out on January 1st. Awesome!

1:00:44 It's a very big book, it's sort of about twice the length of the Alien Abduction book and it's sort of a history of Area 51 but focusing mainly on the whole UFO claims. Yeah, I actually saw an article that i think you had recently written the ties into that how the russians were and maybe still are trying to figure out what area 51 is all about. And yeah it's even kind of appropriate because there's a bob lazar tie-in and uh... You know there's that movie out that everyone's talking about? Yeah, I haven't seen that yet I've heard varying different thoughts about it, but i'll definitely have to watch it. Yeah, I agree the reviews are varied but it's just good to have quality material out there you know quality from a actual technical standpoint about these kind of stories that we have just kind of been in the underbelly before and we didn't really have a lot of high production value stuff to look at or to circulate so I guess it's all good

1:01:46 Yeah it's a strange world we're in when we are only getting to see, a small piece of the what going on but i said i think what it boils down to is that there clearly are people investigating abductions. I think they suspect there's a sinister side to it, but they're not fully sure what it is or why. And they seem to be following just about every possible theory as a means to get the answers and which I think is the right way of doing it you know just don't follow this all that follow the whole thing

1:02:23 Hopefully you know more files will surface and what we got right now is the raw data files. What I'm trying to say is if we can get, files that would name the project and where they're working from, and that kind of thing. Yes, and there is one other question I just wanted to ask you because if you ask Wikipedia about top-secret documents They'll tell you that the rules state a document can be sealed for 25 years followed by another 25 years if necessary And then no documents are sealed longer than 50 years and that's obviously not true But I would believe that some things do come out because of that process. Obviously, you've covered a lot of things in this book and beyond that you got because of the passage of time. Are there any other cases that are sealed where your excitedly waiting for enough time to pass to maybe get your hands on them?

1:03:17 You're right, there is legislation to ensure that files should surface after a certain amount of time. But one of the problems is that when you have government programs very often the research itself is contracted out to private corporations that do secret work for the governments. Let's say hypothetically the US Air Force wants a new kind of radar system well this Well, the Air Force itself doesn't build radar systems. They have corporations and companies that do that for them you know and there'll be a non-disclosure and it will all be very clandestine and secret

1:03:58 Now the research would all be being done by the company that makes the radars and then they would hand it over to the government but a lot of people don't know even if you do work for the governments, but you're not working for them. You're contracted. People who are contracted and any documentation created by an outside company for the government isn't subject to the Freedom Information Act so So in other words, let's say for example hypothetically now that with the abduction program. Let's say that a lot of the people they've got on board are like psychologists doctors medical experts things like this who might be consulted and if they prepare reports for the group will those papers and reports prepared to the group

1:04:45 Would not be subjected to the freedom of information act even though they were prepared for the government if i read my outside bodies then not covered so in other words that's a very. good way from the government's perspective to keep things hidden by keeping it as a government program, having people outside of the governments do the work. Yes yes makes a lot of sense that's the main speculation we get into sometimes is that a lot of this stuff is deep corporate and places like Lockheed Martin they probably have more information than anyone and they don't have to share Well man this is been a lot of fun i am always excited to have you on i mean it's great to be able to cover your fiftieth book on the last show of two thousand eighteen, you are quite a busy guy nick but i always appreciate your work and the discipline you have thanks again for taking time anything more to tell people about following your word.

1:05:42 I'm not a great deal right now. If anybody's listening in Utah, my first lecture of 2019 will be the first Saturday in Salt Lake City, Utah. I'll actually have the data on my blog within the next day or so people will be able to find it there. Perfect! Always keeping busy but man thanks again always love what you do and keep it up All right, thanks a lot Greg. Alright man have it going happy New Year's Eve higher side chatters Mmm Nick Redfern getting the party started early and hey here I am working on the holiday But that's life right big thanks again to Nick He's always been great a real staple of my conspiracy podcast journey And so I thought it just aligned well with putting a stamp on 2018 his 50th book too so impressive

1:06:43 Yes, it is a classic topic with some new details and angles. I definitely thought Bosco's disclosure was interesting especially since that other case i mentioned where there was a guy who remembers someone saying hey my name is Bosco welcome to the Galactic Brotherhood That guy said he felt like he was injected with something when he was jostling around in his hazy sleep state. So it just makes so much sense you come in, shoot someone up with LSD and take a few steps back and welcome them into the Galactic Federation of Blight am I right? But I thought this was fun just a broadly solid show that almost any THC fan can enjoy

1:07:28 If you like just the more practical stuff, well this was an approach to that because it's the real government documents that are these subtext underpinning everything. So I think it works for a lot of different types of fans even flat earth folks should like it because while it is about entities You've got to explain these encounters somehow if we're in a dome and the MKUltra angle is a nice solve for the ET phenomenon. If you're going to say space isn't real, of course there's always demons right? That explains the soul sucking business but guys it has been a great year I really can't thank you enough for listening i hope i'm bringing you stuff that is helpful and entertaining

1:08:13 Gotta thank all the guests for December. I think Circumcision and the HPV vaccine are two shows that definitely have a place in the archive that is fairly unique, but you know i can say the same about Chris Knowles and Michael Wan they're both amazing at what they do too so we covered magic ritual the synchromystic perspective deep conspiracy medical stuff and aliens as the icing on the December THC cake. I think the next thing you'll see from me is a holiday special for The Plus People, that is the real treat this week so keep an eye out! And there were also some people who left comments or wrote me asking for something really crazy and out there for Christmas and to that I say

1:09:07 I am a bit late in classic stoner fashion, but we're kicking off the new year with some serious strangeness of multiple flavors. I think you're really going to be into it and some unique ideas to say the least and i've just got one hell of a January mapped out for us already. I'm all jazzed up so If you just hear the free version of THC, you are really missing out. Signing up for a Plus Membership is the only form of support that I ask for and it's not for nothing because the second hour is usually the best hour just because of the natural flow of a conversation

1:09:43 In today's with Nick we added several logs to the fire talking about the Dulce base and the hybrid program. More on these soul sucking angle, We got to get into the Chicago Owlman sightings of 2017. We talked to Lon Strickler earlier in the year well Nick had a follow up there exciting that some of these things are peaking in such recent history We also talked about the underlying current of disclosure that we've seen in the last two years. There have been some weird things bubbling up, I wanted to pick Nick's brain about it because that guy has been in ufology for a long long time and we also talked about some details from this latest book related to which government agencies tend to have which kinds of files

1:10:33 And of course several other threads that all relate to the big picture today. Something is definitely going on out there and I for one am gonna be seeking out the Integratron before it's too late! So have a great new year, cheers to all you guys Be the best you can be and stay safe. I'm outta here your move alien overlords deep state mind manipulators and soul suckers from outer space Your fuckin' Oh no You see, the world isn't random it's attached to puppet strings Control over everything The 9-to-5 is trying to steal ya Now don't that job seem silly? Hello can you hear me

1:11:30 Or should I play back recordings from some spying agency? Wish we were younger and free. I'll be thankful when it's all exposed, a vast conspiracy There's such a difference between us And the Denver Shire Hollow from the highest side They're calling out a thousand crimes They'll tell you the story Of everything that's been done Then they'll call out deception From the web that's been spawned

1:12:25 Hello from the higher side The earth is hollow I will tell you about something That no one else will Have you heard of it? Have you heard about the real since long ago? You know they're cartoons It's so typical of me to talk about the stuff I'm sorry that's good and well Did you ever hear the argument That nothing really happens, it's no secret And that the best is plumb? It's doubling your time

1:13:31 Hello from the higher side They're calling out a thousand crimes They'll tell you something The elite have done And they'll call out deception From the web that's been spawned Hello from the higher side Challenging your past And I'll tell you something, that the battle's begun But we can't fight it with violence The mind's where it's won, as the war, as the war Hello from a higher side They're calling out 1,000 crowns

1:15:00 have done and they'll call my old exception of the web that's been spun from the higher side challenging your paradigm, and I'll tell you But we can't fight it with violence The mind's where it's won, that's the point