Lance Baker & Mat Dragonstone | Reiki, Talismans, & The Pleiades Pendulum Set

00:00 All right, people. This is a bit of an outside the box episode that ends with a pretty detailed breakdown of a ritual contact experience slash experiments that I had and I think it took awhile in this interview to bring up the fact that I planned to go over the experience in the wrap-up so I'm letting you know now. So stick with it till the end or if you just have an interest in hearing how these things went jump to the wrap-up because kind of a wild one and it'll all become clear what I'm talking about pretty soon but alright enjoy Well, well, well. I'm just a man whose intentions are good from the Sunshine State. I'm Greg Carlwood and it is interesting that no matter what you might think about its usefulness the art and science of petitioning the spirits stars subconscious or greater cosmos for insights or answers to unanswered questions goes back about as far as we do

00:55 What even brought man to think you could throw chicken bones, read coffee grounds, spread cards or observe smoke signals and make contact or extract information in any sort of reliable way? For almost all cultures outside of our own, signs and systems are everywhere. From animals making an uncanny appearance to lights in the sky that seem to be speaking to us... It was known that we are embedded in a conscious cosmos And only by engineering or removal from the living world In exchange for smoke-filled concrete covered uninspired cityscape Could we be made to forget something that seemed ubiquitous to everyone else We are relearning and here to teach us our today's guest Lance Baker and Matt Dragonstone. Lance is a hypnotherapist, Reiki healer an author of two books questioning skills for IMR hypnosis in the Swan Protocol as well as these seven primary chakras he's also the host of the Akasha Talks podcast and an expert on the use of pendulums as divinatory devices with the full scope of his work in services being found at branchesofhealing.com.au

01:58 And our other guest is astrological magician, tarot reader and talented talismanic jeweler Matt Dragonstone of dragonstoneastrology.com who also has a PhD in post-structuralism and ancient Greek philosophy on top of all the rest With their powers combined, they have produced a potent talismanic Pleiadian pendulum set designed to facilitate divination and spiritual communication. Included in the set is a solid sterling silver seven-sided pendulum with the name of each of the stars of the Pleiades in relief per side and an organite pendulum map both crafted at the elected time relevant to connecting to the Seven Sisters as well as consecrated and suffumigated as per Agrippa's instructions from The Book of Occult Philosophy

02:41 We'll get into why we're talking about this particular magical tool, but suffice to say it's supposed to be a powerful one. Why waste any more time? Here they are the esoterically inclined educators talented talismanic craftsmen and the Pleiadian pendulum pals Lance and Matt, Matt and Lance! Welcome to THC Hey do my thanks for having us yes thank you guys so. This one comes with quite a story but most listeners i'm sure know of the passing of these most frequent guest and my good friend gordon white of room super earlier this year good friend of all three of us actually,

03:19 And after he passed, Lance was kind enough to message me some photos from their family memorial. Talked to me a bit about it which I appreciated and I expressed my desire to see Gordon's death as an opportunity for after-death contact because if I can't contact a magically inclined friend known as the Dark Prince of Chaos Magic or as I would say the Tasmanian Devil himself Well, I guess i am truly spiritually deaf and there's no hope. But Lance was kind enough to actually send me the very Pleiadian talismanic pendulum set that I described in the intro there and it was made in partnership with Matt and I really am just waiting for the right time to consecrate it and try my hand at contacting the dead And we'll get into that Obviously you gave me though The Times 2 You know? I always say with magical guests

04:15 It's way more complicated than people think as people who want to dismiss magic say well everyone would do it if it works not really. Does everyone exercise knowing that you know we all wanna look ripped if didn't take a lot of effort so magic is similar where the timing is really so key, And you did that for me, just gave me the nice printout so I just have to find the right day to consecrate it and then... The tool is tuned to me and i can use it better. But just get us started here, I wanted to ask both of you guys about what really broke materialism for you? If you even happen ever be in that camp or not, I kinda think we all are because its kind of a

04:59 What looks obvious before you dig deeper but lance i know a little bit more about your story maybe you can start by telling people about your headaches and how you fixed the problem that modern western medicine could not. Yeah okay i had my brain nearly decade was couple months of a decade, and that's like twenty four seven like there was no seconds reprieve it was just on insane changes volume did It was at best a free mostly stuck about five come up with like at least a dozen new versions of what 10 was. That's confronting when you're like, you gotta work out where are the pain scale and then you have this day that you're like well my tens now five and i've got a new version of ten in that happen because of modern medicine

05:58 The guy who was labeled as the best neurosurgeon in southern hemisphere he did surgery on me and i woke up from that surgery with this migraine and what really stuck with that. Knowing how long it was was i had the surgery that day after my birthday so every year of my birthday i was like what is this been one year since being 23456789 and on my ninth one always set my. My limit like five years you don't just gave up on thinking of finding answer because everything i tried didn't pause even for a second so just like this in my life,

06:43 Well the ninth year I was like, the ninth year I turned 33 and i've been listening to heaps of Kevin Smith's podcasts. And it was talking in this cause it was doing a renovation thing while I was listening to him he was talking about 33 being Jesus' Year and miracles can happen but im like well this is gonna be my Year! Im gonna find my miracle and break this I'd so i set myself a thing that i'll try everything again and how stupid was crazy or something we don't want to come across my path i would do it can you come across my path, add been told about need to do what by this guy's girlfriend did it but he's got friends with without some experience she had said she didn't do any more but. They should do it in the morning she said she didn't have a session interesting like i was laying there

07:44 I was really, really thinking it was a scam. Like this woman's not touching me." Now that I'm like with Matt here, I was laughing and thinking this witch is sitting in the corner she's playing for fucking tarot cards. This is the biggest scam ever imagine pulling 90 bucks out of my wallet set on fire. It's a joke and because of having this pain all time I was hyper aware every sensation And i know it's maybe fifteen twenty minutes in i could feel the stuff coming out of my head. Add a spot where there is a hole in my head from when they drilled into this operation and that just had me at that moment was like fuck this which is legit does this not a joke,

08:42 Not sure what to think about this now i was just taking a thing off the list to say yep that's another thing that doesn't work and that was the intention pretty much had walking in like. I didn't have any belief in it when did i was desperate to try anything, so i went a bunch times it was helping but didn't make it go away but really help it some weird stuff happen which like the weird stuff kind of broke my materialist stop then i went and get a class myself Because i found out you can do it on yourself to know you could do it on yourself and. So when along and i thought being able to myself might help in between sessions with this lady to build the momentum up of what can happen, break is passed on by this achievement a recipe master will connect you with the energy so that you got disability to life and

09:38 The moment that happened and most basic reiki practices in energy ball we just hope energy between hands. And the moment i did that could feel this energy life just change like a star, this is the other bike i'd chase christianity routes before and All my spiritual experiences had been essentially secondhand information somebody else had this miraculous thing happen somebody else could feel an energy somebody else could. Speaking time somebody else to do these different amazing spiritual things but i didn't have any connection with it and i just had to have more fight for that and. Incidentally i don't want church every week for three months doing a spiritual healing thing where they like the hands on me and pray to me like no jesus and it didn't do anything,

10:30 And now here i am i can feel this thing in my hands like this is it this world of nothing this is huge and then just a week and half playing with that, that migraine gone. Where was living at the time i built like a man cave out the back and his old shed like done up and build in or proper room and that's what listend to the podcast the idea was while renovating when i made the dedication on my birthday that this was gonna be it i was having a drink standing like in that room and then when i noticed the microphone is gone i was going to work, and all standing in the threshold of the doorway of that are about to close door am i forgetting something like keys wallet phone. I have them right

11:28 I have a fucking migraine yeah i'm shutting this down going to work is great i didn't know how long that would be well start the business was gone in that moment when it's stayed away, i stay away for nine years and if you go back. For a brief little period to highlight something to me as soon as i noticed that thing disappear to get wow i mean that is incredible i read about the story was a cysts that was there i mean just insane you know a lot of people when i hear the stories that they have like once you've.

12:09 For some people once you've invoked the surgery situation you really the subtle energy stuff doesn't seem so subtle but that's the term believes it doesn't work anymore like once you done chemo u can go do the alternative route because you already damage yourself to such a degree so. Just while that seems like your very lucky and, This is crazy i told you before we started i had a reiki experience once because i had to guess who got me motivated eileen mccusick who does biofield tuning with tuning forks someone from her.

12:45 Network also was a reiki healer in san diego and so i did a session and i just yeah i also kind of felt like. What is happening here should i have just got a massage because at least then i could feel something cuz this person's just walking around me and then they're like yup you're all tuned up, I was like well i don't feel any different but i felt fine before and maybe it is like going to a doctor when you're fine and they tell your find new leaf feeling fine, i guess maybe you need to have a reason to do ricky but what do you think about that idea like. Is it something you think people should get just tune up for life further shocker system or whatever what are you make of it that person like me just didn't feel anything quite from people want feel something the first time

13:33 Some people feel heaps of stuff something we don't feel anything what people senses completely different with. Everybody like somebody will feel hot or cold sensations sometimes both at once i got had people feel freezing cold on the left side and burning hot on their right side it was everything's home except for one bit is freezing cold, all tingling sensations like collect pins and needles but without that pain aspect to it Magnetic pressure is huge that one gets weird when you feel like something's pushing against you but nothing touching you can't wait when you try to push two repelling magnets together. I will have equilibrium in balances with a feeling floating or sinking through the table the table spinning around and most common one is probably, translate stuff like a lot of people go into a light transfer deep trance and with that

14:37 You're entering in like dreamlike state and so that can be you see your taste feel smell things that are not happening more often than not when i get a session it knocks me out. When I teach people reiki too they have to come back to give me a session so i can give them some feedback with that like, I'm open half the time so that i can give them feedback and still get knocked out with it but the weird bit for me is like if i lay on my back and sleep ice not that's like a guaranteed. And i'll be laying there getting ready to be like why am i sorry im mostly,

15:23 I cut stop sorry usually that's the point where i'm just going to know about you also told me you broke up two kidney stones with ricky and it's like where were ya month ago but. Now let's bring in here so what about you i read on your about page you've been studying magic since the nineties thirty plus years, And you say that you often take what works and discard what doesn't your only concern with results and hold no tradition dear for its own sake that is something that resonates me i think, gordon being a chaos magician that's what it all about so clearly you've seen some things that.

16:04 have results because you wouldn't be so dedicated to this space. But what would you say are the things that work or some of the major pieces you rely on to cobble together your own model, not just of astrology but everything? What broke the doors off?" Well I think it comes down to worldview Greg and look at- The doors were kind of already off when for as far back as i can remember So I grew up in Newcastle, same place as Gordon. I didn't know him when I was living there and only met him later in life but I grew up opposite one of the biggest cemeteries in the country and so you know being close to I guess the veil between life and death almost literally, I sort of grew up thinking that this was all kind of normal so that just relying on materialism is a world view that seemed very foreign to me

16:56 And you know the process of growing up and then just being indoctrinated and enculturated into a world view that's fundamentally atheistic materialist. It eventually kind of knocked the enchantment out of me, But underneath that the whole time was this subcurrent of, I can't stop thinking about magic divination and astrology. I had no words for it back then but probably the first memory I have of encountering tarot for instance was in a library not very far from my house where on the shelf there's just an introductory book on Tarot when I was transfixed. I borrowed it, ran home and hit

17:35 hidden a laundry basket to read it because my parents weren't at all supportive of a young kid who's displaying a lot of spiritual openness. So I was studying magic in secret, I was studying tarot in secret and eventually started practicing it in secret when I was a student when I was an undergraduate. And I never really stopped but I had this overlay of atheistic materialist indoctrination which said this isn't worth your time you know It may or may not be true it doesn't matter but it holds no value you can really make a living out of that respectable living. So what can I do to kind of, the respectable in the eyes of others and closest thing i could think was going study philosophy being academic. So i forced myself through four years about graduate philosophy and then phd in philosophy and right at the end of that i kind of knew that i couldn't really play pretend and existing academia

18:33 So i decided well you know if i can't really sort of be an academic i might as well just get a corporate job and. Continue saying clients on the side and into a call center i went there's a famous joke about people who study philosophy in it what's the first thing that a philosophy grad says when they graduate, any answer is do you want fries with that so it's either mcdonalds or call center And i ended up working in insurance of all things and it was so depressing. That you know while the doors were always open like pretended that they were closed and eventually I just couldn't couldn't do it couldn't do it so i quit and that secret sort of side gig or part time job became the full time identity, and just like glance it was kind of close to thirty third birthday is a bit across over there

19:22 I'm 43 now, and have been doing this for about 10 years openly as an openly practicing astrologer and astrological magician and tarot reader etc. And the one thing that unites it is worldview, basically. The most important thing is worldview and the experience of indoctrination was the experience of being told that physical world is all there is and science is a source of truth and religion is a nice pastime and some people make a career out of it in terms of accepted modes of spiritual expression like in the West Christianity and insert religion here depending on where you are in the world but

20:04 I mean, there's no real value in that in terms of what can be counted and monetized and relied upon so to speak in concrete terms. But my worldview was never that it was always just a mask that I was putting on to appease others. And then I just got too old mate! I'm like, I am too old to pretend. There is too much evidence to the contrary in terms of my own experience which never stopped being spiritually open. You know saying things that other people couldn't and the only difference between the childhood me and. The me that i am now is that intermediate period of pretending that I could you know engage spiritually with the world around me, now i don't give a shit just pretty much who i am yeah i like that i mean

20:55 I've only had one strange experience saw forty and thing when i was young but it is funny how you can put that away. For fifteen years in the like just repeat yourself well nothing strange ever happens to me i hear these stories on paranormal shows are read ufo accounts nothing strange ever happens to me, and then do you actually think about it's like actually that one thing you saw should have Broken the doors off of it what why did you just leave that back and or you know i had an experience where. I was in the car five years old and i got this crazy message put your seatbelt on because you know i didn't wear my seat belt when i was young my parents pick their battles i know that's weird but it was the late eighties i guess,

21:37 But i'd actually listen to the voice in my head i wouldn't listen my parents but this voice like that is very bizarre put my seatbelt on got a car accident got t-boned right after that. I was fine but like even that i filed it away and its like no that was a clue how's the clue what is really going on out there so, It is funny how even fairly dramatic things one or two things you can put them away for a couple decades and then hopefully you reconnect with that stuff in say those were. The clues for myself that there is something more out there but as further the set itself so,

22:17 Why pleiadian i mean i know now cuz i read up on this but it was one of my first questions we know the please are the cluster stars we know is the seven sisters with one not really being visible in the night sky. I mean obviously there's a greek myth of it but i think it shows up and like a lot of cultures, and they all kind have that motif of like in the story that they tell of the seven sisters one isn't really seen But I guess talk to us about the history of the Pleiades, why it's important to you and why do you think it's a great anchor for a talismanic set like this?

22:54 Yeah, well I mean a lot of talismanic magic that's practiced in the West is kind of influenced by two pretty big books or grimoires. The first one comes to mind as three books on occult philosophy – most people are familiar with that. The second is a treatise on astrological magic called the Picatrix and it's kinda less known but quite good and I use it quite often. But both those grimoires have very similar associations and very similar kind of sets of benefits i suppose the come from working directly with them.

23:30 The only reason why the Pleiades are in those books of astrological magic is because they're practically ubiquitous. Every culture on the planet has a myth about the Pleiades, and they're all very similar. So we take the Greek version which is kind of what we get in the West and then we can compare that to for example you know the Australian Aboriginal or Indigenous peoples understanding of the Pleiades and their mythologies and their stories about it – very very similar. Seven sisters You know it's always seven and you know the haunted that chased you know basically what's the bones of the mythology.

24:07 And so, I guess what interested me in the Pleiades – and this is definitely following off what Gordon wrote about in Starships in particular – why is this so ubiquitous? Why for example now when we can only observe six of these seven stars with the naked eye does every culture have seven sisters or it's always the number seven that features in their mythologies. And I did a little bit of digging and the only time that you could have sat and looked up at the sky and observed all seven Pleiades – there's actually more than them, but seven is the most commonly recognized one – is 100 000 years ago. Right? One hundred thousand years ago on Earth you could have looked in the sky and seen seven of these stars and the mythologies that persist

24:56 we have to assume rightly or wrongly that the cultures they came from didn't have the technological advancement that we have at the moment, to be able to use telescopes and what-have you to observe all seven. And you sort of come to a conclusion that this mythology is older than civilization and older than what we've been told most definitely about how long people have been on Earth so to speak So there's that sense of mystery about the stars. It interested me for the longest time, and because I practice astrological magic the methodology is you have to find as you mentioned the right time, the right place to get the right astrological conditions to make contact with the energy represented by celestial bodies and I was looking for ages years for the right moment

25:47 I just so happen that one popped up at about the same time that i started working with lance and naturally gordon brought us together. And we met through rune soup and i was just chatting with him about you know what's up what have i got on so to speak and it came out like look i've got a really good time coming out for the 80s, and i'm looking forward to working with them in them one thing led to another And I think the tenure, the history, the pedigree of this particular star cluster More so than what it signified, I was willing to kind of accept whatever the significations of the stars were or the benefits of working with them. That's what hooked me the most. I'm like, I want to talk to these sisters. I want to interact with these spiritual energies and just see what happens next. There is not a lot of rationale really and that is something that I am very happy to have learned after leaving the academy

26:43 to just trust the gut. The gut said, work with them, work with them, pursue them hunt them like you know like the myths basically all say and eventually I was able to kind of coaxed into you know the objects that form the set and here we are. I like it. And so Lance, you're kind of more the pendulum guy and this is a pendulum set. So Matt creates it and such impressive stuff on your website, Matt just all the various things you make the talismans you make. I mean, you got them in categories for different use cases and it just seems wild. I once bought a, uh, of

27:40 and then I took it off, and like my whole finger was like mildly burnt all the way around. All red! And so I stopped wearing it obviously because I thought maybe Mercury doesn't like me or It wasn't a good fit or my astrology is incompatible...I don't know but..it did feel powerful! It felt like you know maybe that there's something to it But also supposedly consecrated at the right time instead of-It looked cool Maybe i'll try that again at some point, what sort of thing but i guess i should just ask if you have advice for. Choosing the right house and i mean not just for like oh i want wealth or i want love like do you consult people's charts to see what actually beneficial for them are what would be a good fit

28:26 Yes, I do. Yeah absolutely and you know the general rule of thumb for people that are maybe new to interacting with talismans is let's have a look at your birth chart your astrological chart lets see where all the planets are in that chart and you know it's not just the sun so for people who are sort of completely new to astrology most people know their sun sign they say things like i'm a Taurus or Leo or Gemini whatever What they're saying is that the Sun as a quote unquote planet was in that sign at the time I was born. But what people are less aware of is that all the other planets in the sky are somewhere in the 360 degrees zodiacal wheel and some of those planets have really good times, take Mercury for instance. Mercury loves being in Gemini, it loves being in Virgo – those are two signs that Mercury do really well. If you rock up and

29:18 and get in touch and say hey matt i'm interested in buying a talisman can you have a look at my chart and I look at it and I see that mercury is in Gemini or Mercury's in Virgo, or Mercury otherwise really strong in your chart. I'd recommend Mercury! I would say yeah go with Mercury its already doing its job really well lets just add a bit of oomph to that and you'll get effects that are noticeable and i'm assuming yours is your mercury must be pretty damn good not only because your podcast is awesome. But because you had that kind of reaction so the ring right it started to burn its start to release fizzle and pop

29:54 And if people want observable effects right go with what's already strong in your chart the best way to find that out is, if you're already an astrologer look at your chart which planets are dignified. Which planets have already a lot of power behind them and are able to do their job very well hit that button a little bit more and you'll get more of that good stuff is it too much of a good thing well sometimes it is in the ring starts to burn and maybe you don't want to kind of get too close to it but as a starting point that's the way to go inside yeah look at people's charts and i got what do you want first of all, what are getting in touch for your after love me after money are you off with mercury communication so to speak.

30:36 is it going to work for you? Because just like with Gemini and Virgo, Mercury's happy being there. Mercury is not too happy being in Sagittarius, not too happy being in Pisces. It doesn't mean that it's hard up against it from the start. It's just that a talisman of Mercury might not necessarily work as well for people with planetary placements like that. And so having a consultation first—I do them You know if you're interested in buying a towel so i'll just have a squeeze it won't take very long that's usually good place to start just have a look and go into it from there. See what works and do more of it yeah i mean is the making these at the elected time and catered to the individual that i think is really interesting because its like such a,

31:24 Lost art form i mean this used to be a guess. A much bigger thing or the way it was done and now people just wear jewelry for no reason spend a thousand dollars on this things that looks nice is like if you're gonna spend money on precious gems and, that kind of thing i mean at least add this element to it isn't more fun at least in the also might bring crazy things your life And just because we were talking about it my mercury not that it's all about me is in eighteen degrees areas i am an aries and its in my ninth house so. I don't know if that explains why my finger got burned but you're nodding yeah no it's good i mean you know areas this is good i'm in first prize gemini vergo but there is pretty pretty good and that's dangerous thing to say when ares by the way,

32:14 I'm a guy so i have a pretty good podcast not a great one you know i'm not the other car and not that i'm not the jr. No but in terms of placement your doing really well so nine pounds it's all about spirituality philosophy the bigger picture show me the bigger picture, areas is bright right and to take on topics like for example conspiracy and some of the conversations that you had with people i think that the best ones that I've heard in time because i'm a big fan by the way some of the best conversations I've heard with you where your fearless. I'm on hillman is a great example episode rock it was so good and it was about religion and you were being so brave having him on and I just love that episode so much, what's an example of how works well for ya yeah

33:03 Yeah yeah i need to find it's hard to find people that are that extreme but when i do i'm like let's try not. Lance lets talk about pendulums and died act alone man see died act all man see, i only read the word i haven't had tried to say very often but this is the art of noticing twitches or interpreting which is as signs right yet there I got into pendulums because through hypnotherapy routes, one of the main things i work with is idiomotor response which is unconscious twitches. Which usually im getting through peoples fingers but sometimes its elsewhere in their body and some people have twitches that are really small and ive gotta get my face really close to their hand like see it or line up with

33:58 Bookshelf behind them with tattoos on their arm or something like that to be able to notice other people's the huge and then they're really big and clear. For me my conscious is pretty clearly think big ones i can't just show us a yes come on joseph yes by, no so thats involuntary that's involuntary moving that my unconscious moving that to talk alone and That's clear and easy to see but somebody so small or not where a pendulum will just amplify that stuff is it tiny little movement. It can get bigger answer if i'm not seeing movements of somebody i could put a pendulum in the hand and ask their unconscious to show us yes, should start moving every car sometimes around like this is doing all the time to be back forwards left right depending on the person and show some more

34:59 And so it's just working off of engineering like with the gears. They make a thing move better because you making small things become a big thing through that different movements at the time in the movements from that chain and wait show up bigger, i'm gonna bottom and then you can interact with something else To be able to get somewhere and so that has been used traditionally in divination sources a lot of like old grandmas are stuff have a lot of the communication with spirits. In pendulum use and they used to do something like the pendulum board you got there when i would have the characters of their alphabet around a bowl and then they'd have wine water or something in that balls well quite often

35:52 Do grab that spirit or otherwise sometimes it have an empty but the pendulum would swing towards the letters to. Dispel something out so you can get more than just a yes no sort of interaction and so for years i was working with hypnosis which is direct suggestion and then i found out about your motor response when I first got that was just to get a yes just twitch fire yes and then I'm in toward under a guy called bob burns who invented this thing called the swan which is that i guess what are people listening you do kinda like the lamp rested then.

36:35 Make your ear and look like a swan and that you know that's the configuration that you put your hand in then you get the subtle movements of the fingers for us is no i don't know. It goes on from there you can watch his videos on self swanning and then there's a company book but, that's a good way to get started if you're just curious if you can communicate with your own subconscious yeah so used it for unconscious communication and bob introduced me to the world over How spirits can come through with which tracks and stuff like that transmedium ship kind of stuff happens as well with this so you can connect to.

37:15 The ghost and everything else that was the spooky room with stuff and so from there experiment with like. Directly trying to get that i've done a lot of just weird experimental stuff whether i'm talking with, persons unconscious if im talking about the spirit of done it without a mystic sort of things where talk to river or lake mountain trees have two way communication up felt like I've lost the plot a few times with that cause it sounds pretty crazy but then things like have come up in that conversation paintings i couldn't know and then. Real life stuff happens with that where there's direct feedback like, how to conversation with an ancestor the past like many many many years before i was even born any time to connect with certain group of people.

38:15 I'll knock on my door at nine o'clock the next morning. What? Yeah, well one mind can't create that was not in my head of this thing and these people don't doorknock it was just spotless i've lost count of the amount examples of stuff like that from interactions with the land or interactions with an ancestor all some other kind of spirit the feedback of what i got is for real Easy with me to do that in body i'll still use a pendulum sometimes most time or just my hand. The average person it takes a lot more to get that out of the hand if they're just doing on their own so i teach people how to use pendulum so they can open the gateway and pretty much anybody can use a pendulum pretty easy wild,

39:10 So in the book you do have some stuff about the history that seems like one of the earliest uses of didactylomancy is the oracle of zeus at, No donna this was i guess one of the earliest ones where seekers believe zeus directly would influence a pendulum movement around letters engraved in the room of ritual basin. The oldest artifact that i think people have found is the alphabet plate from three hundred and seventy one c, and it's just so crazy how far back this stuff goes

39:47 And for people who are more scientifically inclined i thought these two situations were interesting but in april of eighteen twenty five. Call me pascal bill it's you have to help me with the name but a mesmerist accidentally found a way to engage and, I don't matter yes no communication when a patient of his started getting joint undulations in and me that had been immobile for years, he discovered that he could start and stop these movements in her knee with verbal commands. Using this he communicated with what he believed was her holy guardian angel or higher self for her subconscious whatever but just the same thing you were showing us with this one it seems like this

40:35 Spontaneously happen in her knee and this guy had the intuition to be like these are random movements there is a communication coming through here and that is so bizarre. That story search repeat i got bored in lockdown and like spent ages going through like all mesmerist books littering french translating them into english with the help of french canadian guy and, Mesmerism needs to do lots of trans based things where like if they would get the other to communicate through the person. I think body the whole person but i had put personal transfer that he was just worked on this woman's leg and the guy was a doctor before any tour this woman, years before i think it was close to ten years before we saw this woman couldn't fix up as a doctor that leg was just completely atrophy.

41:29 And so we start learning mesmerism is like this healing thing might help to test it out and who's doing that mesmeric passes just on a leg not on the whole body. And he thought the question first about something with her and her knee when three times don't left right is like did you just answer me, i went to get any side no this was all just in his head is like Can you show me yes i did don't think again is like a show me know what to do up and down have any started doing it out loud. But from there he got like full verbal communication through the woman as well without doing trance and that was the first time that they been in the hypnosis and mesmerism world but somebody had not trans happening but though, the voice where she was channeling

42:23 That drain the woman too much and he had that little voice where it would use like. Is your motor responses or the little boys were be should have a thought i want to try but the trip is bit was it was a time in this boy scapegoat, the bits of what would fix up and they did the things of what it said and it fixed up bet there was his time she tripped and guardian angel dropped rope in front of her And she grabbed it and he saw this like she was like me falling over and got lifted back up which is generally impossible now i wasn't there just like read his letters to backwards and forwards to another therapist trying to like what the hell was going on. I bet that just blew my mind,

43:16 Yeah and then a little over a decade before that in eighteen twelve there's michael eugene chevrolet he was a chemist and he was intrigued by. A process for the pendulum that his, Hello colleague chemists were doing that they would determine the properties of something they were studying with a pendulum and he was curious enough about this study experimented with double blind studies to discover the pendulums movements actually came from our thoughts. But of course you know we don't know where our thoughts come from so that becomes a curious thing but do you know more about his double blind studies or are his ending conclusions cuz i haven't heard many people. Actually try to study this no double blind way he did it in a white disconnect the spirituality from it but there was,

44:13 It was used by chemists to try and work out the properties of things that's where he was saying it. And it was called for you still working at a baby with a boy or girl and stuff like that as well but what got his attention on it was this chemistry is working alongside to go, what chemicals are in these guys and they all had chemical knowledge as well until their unconscious will be picking up smells and things like that but these people weren't saying Hey Zeus, tell me what the chemical properties of this are. They were just asking the pendulum what the properties of this were. So if you just ask a question more likely than not if your not asking to connect something first your unconscious probably going to be the first thing to try and answer through there anyway unless your trying to connect to something else

45:10 But so he would put different things under and he would like switch it out at the last minute, stuff like that with these double blind studies or he'd put the thing not underneath it but next to it because you have them blind somebody like watching what was there. It was a very much materialistic guy trying to prove materialism right but even he came away with its nothing nothing yeah definitely is not nothing which is huge major discovery anyway to realize We've got this extra way to contact our conscious yeah i mean even if that's your primary uses just get in touch with your subconscious i think that's amazing cuz i do think you're subconscious is the. Gateway to the kashuk record or lease has more knowledge than you have and can offer you great insights and,

45:59 You don't need to involve other spirits if you just want to try to engage there now i still have a lot of questions about dialing up the right spirit or. Knowing what can be trusted i mean i know the protocols with this board, you set an intention and u ask it's okay to communicate you tried to be very respectful but like i still wonder from being tricked i mean i know spirits can lie you mentioned experiences with ghosts Lance and i assume you both have had experiences with ghosts and spirits in intelligences but. I guess so there are those people who think this stuff isn't real which is not who were really addressing like if we can be one over then no amount of podcasting is gonna do it but then there's those who think its dangerous, which is obviously far different and i'm getting more than that category because

46:54 The people i know who engage with this stuff, Gordon Tracy twine and they both died premature deaths I mean. I don't know like gordon used to say magical wreck your life and you know he was funny he was always saying tongue in cheek stuff like that and i know what he meant by it just like ill disrupt Your life and disrupt the pattern sets that you're already in a new probably be radically change so if you're not ready for radical change that would be a wrecking of one's life you know, if your not willing to go with the flow and jack sparrow with it but. I mean so many people have said me and its it's so shitty but they like see magic really did him

47:36 You know a lot of favors didn't it you know. You can help but think about that you know tracy twyman's channeling boffin and the biblical cain and a weegee board, and getting involved in these occult groups in his found hanged in her garage no whether she was driven to do that mentally from some kind of. Bane or was done who knows but its just the end result and you know gordon has a heart attack at twenty nine I'm just joking because he used to always say so young, but you know 44-45. I'm not exactly sure but obviously very young and premature and there was a lot of speculation as to what happened even i was thinking like did he offend some local talented shaman who didn't want this gringo around? And like he was psychically attacked somehow

48:27 I don't know it's just you know gordon had such an epic life and a real talent that like to be like oh he just had a heart attack checking into his airbnb. I thought he would have a better story like that could be my story but i thought he would have a more epic story i dont know but its just one of those things where, you have to fold this stuff in at the people engaging in magic that i've known most i mean i dont know how much good added is done them It depends on what you're connecting with. As humans, we have a big problem I think with misappropriating the difference between trust and faith take spiritual stuff out of it just interacting with another human other humans sometimes gonna be dangerous other humans are going to lie to you but when we do the world we start to get annoying how well we can trust somebody we can do little

49:32 Experiments to work out like they legit or not why i like having micro interactions with them and seeing how the results of that. Can you ask somebody do something do it if you are somebody something to tell me something truthful play out overtime, can you get a feedback especially with human contact people really often mess up this faith and trusting like faith is dedicated to church-based things more often than not. But in the average human's relationship, we have faith not trust where we just like... Trust is based on experience and an example like trust that something happened and I've got evidence that this is where it is seized or trust this doubt, this has proven to be okay but faith is where there's no evidence there you just find very well

50:30 Some people we make humans and we like okay i trust you have a good no evidence so it's faith stepping in with that when u playing with the pendulum if your jumping in with fight. Will you probably gonna overreach and have some sort of problem but if you stop, Interacting with something again and again and again and you're able to test where it's at get feedback of what actually happens. Will then you can build trust and no talking with is what are you talking with because u, i have something in the middle world interaction that's come through

51:13 the evidence of this thing what and these things been good to me in listening spend good like i did that being good things happen okay. That's great something if you interact with him like, if you talk somebody any punches your face will you probably not gonna want to talk to make everybody know who get that around black, if somebody's been punched in the face by somebody you made a nice guy punch me in the face last week you be on guard when you're out of time If you're going to talk with something like my recommendation to start with, it's family or a friend. Like some close...like you said at the beginning, Gordon great place to start somebody trust somebody is magically inclined and somebody who will be able to create real-world feedback for you of something to give you some trust rather than faith but yeah if you want to talk to something like a goetic demon or something like that you might get burnt

52:16 Yeah yeah look at the source what neighborhood you pulling the thing from that you trying to talk to right good advice. Good advice i mean that is what gordon always said start with an ancestor alter and no dig in now way, matt what do you think about the general idea that not that this stuff is not real but just that it's dangerous that doesn't Lens one to live a long fruitful life engaging with it i don't know if its something they think is in it sucks energy out of you or what but. No, it's just not ideal to have these examples of premature deaths from people who are heavily engaged and magic well yeah i think it is dangerous. It can be it can be sort of denied that practicing magic is dangerous and just follow on from what lance said

53:10 You know there's faith and there is trust and i probably introduce a third category which is risk. And we need to kind of look at the way in which we manage risk just in our daily lives when we're not practicing magic and then assume that same calculus applies to when you are practicing magic there's big risk big reward. And this small risks more rewards and the two i never really out of proportion you know can be able to put in low-risk, and expect massive for what that's just a kinda law of the universe so When you look at the magic that your practicing, you gotta look what magic are you practising first of all and what do you want out any kind of magical operation if you want a bajillion dollars and you know like a ferrari. That's a big reward you gonna have to go big risk for that

54:02 And so the kind of things that you're gonna have to do in order to get there are risky and dangerous in nature. On the other hand, there's also big reward and big risk associated with positive aspects of magic as well which is more aligned I would imagine with the angelic rather than demonic side of things because we have to split everything up into broadly good and bad which is something that i know gordon didn't necessarily like doing but it's something that i think works for me in order to think about. And the same time big risk with working on the positive side of things brings big reward in terms of things like enlightenment inside wisdom knowledge, things of that nature in terms of you know the short lifespan of a lot of prominent magician some people who are practicing magic there so many different ways and which you can explain

54:57 Why, for example with Gordon he passed away so young. Personally I think it was just a hot thing everything that i'm getting when i do divination with the pendulum or with tarot astrology points to the body just conking out. And one thing the golden always says is i wouldn't go to see a shaman if i broke my leg i'd go to the hospital and then afterwards i don't see a shaman figure out why, that happens so to speak i think the wires really down to you it was just his time And i think a lot of the fear that gets attached to instances where people pass away young stems again from the understanding that we all have which is almost unspoken which is this is all there is it's atheistic materialism everywhere. It such a pervasive world view that were all kind of brought up in you know more or less than the west but says this is your one shot at life

55:54 Everything that i've experienced so far in this lifetime points to the opposite being the case personally am a big believer reincarnation i'm a big believer and. The machinations of karma to a certain extent, i just feel like this time around the person that we knew as gordon he had forty five forty four years to kind of do what you was here today definitely got a lot done maybe next time when it comes back is gonna hang around a little bit longer and the conditions under which is gonna try and do the work because as everyone's aware he never stopped working it was always on the go. Maybe those conditions are going to be a little bit kinder because for those of us who practice magic in this society at this time in history, it's hard I mean we're not getting burned steak just yet but we are up against from start if you out there with your shingle out saying ima magician like gordon walls very loud very proud

56:51 The kind of resistance that you encounter not necessarily magical but just the size is gonna be pretty strong and it's gonna have an impact. And the thing that i remember most about gordon is that man was all hot he cares, really care came from the heart so he was out there right from start. I need my personal interactions with him and speaking to other people who are part of her in suit newin they all remember a guy who cared and who had time to talk he may not have been diplomatic when he gave advice. That advice was always genuine so he was hot first and it's almost, really you know sort of macabre way it's poetic that it was the heart took him out because it was the hard to let in most of the time

57:39 So not necessarily a magical explanation for why he left when he did, but definitely something that has to do with how we encounter atheistic materialism and how we try and imbue the world with enchantment. And see the cosmos as magical and how that can have an impact mate, it can have an impact. Well said! So before we run out of time here we usually do talk about you know, yes individual ventures and stuff and mad i'm interested about talismans what do you think. You have a story that might represent the most powerful talisman you think you've made or a story that came back to from someone you made it tells me for this like an outsized result. I think most recently there was really it was something that made me laugh right and finally enough it wasn't mercury tell us when did i make just recent mercury was recently in gemini and like i said before its pretty strong and nice and likes being there,

58:38 And some really good conditions were available and mercury is a pretty slippery planet it's always very close to the sun and so getting at the right time. Is very difficult and so when i get an opportunity of jump on it so i made some mercury talismans, and usually what happens after we call in election off to that the right moment in the right little window which can sometimes be as short as like fifteen minutes that all you got to make these talismans You get an order you get some sort of synchronicity some sort of thing that happens it gives you the thumbs up but its all gone well. And mercury has this connection with messengers and mercury has a connection with communication, and deliveries and the postal service in Korea right

59:24 In my own chart mercury is very close to an asteroid called chiron and car on has this reputation as the wounded healer. And i finished at my studio i finish you know that the ritual and i was feeling pretty good in back when i used to smoke that's usually wanna go outside have a cigarette And so I walked out, i just went for a walk. No intention to do anything and I walk straight out the door and the first person I see is my courier. Courier has a very important package for me it's a book that been waiting on for quite some time. My particular courier has hideous facial scars because of burns incident that he had when he was kid. The book itself was about healing. Because in my own natal chart mercury and chiron are so close together

1:00:11 This wounded healer slash courier was right there just giving me the book that I needed. That's one example that is most recent and jumps to mind? And then of course we get some feedback from customers that the by the talismans and they like you i've got the money tells me not for you and i got this payout but i been waiting for. You know i managed to speak to this person about his deal that i've been waiting on, what kind of stuff happens all the time but i think in terms of literal results most recently couple months ago that happened and i just chuckled all day about that cuz im like there's a career friend of mine and it was mercury and i was doing the telephone for that and it went

1:00:51 It all went swimmingly was really cool yeah that's up is cool and it does just take your awareness to put the pieces together i mean even with the board and gordon like his garden involved in pulling the strings to get us all connected possibly i don't have any. I don't have any reason to believe yes or no i just thought you know lance was, Motivated to reach out and then it all can happen but it's possible that he is an influence in the process i mean obviously. His life is the connector between us but i don't know if you was consciously involved in getting disconnected post death, what is interesting to think about things that way i mean obviously love synchro mysticism the art of seeing all the connections and seen things transcend real world events to pop culture

1:01:42 By separated by decades sometimes really how can these things match so well we are a weird tapestry of synchronicities and you just are aware of however many of them were aware. So lance i was gonna ask you little more about rakey cuz i just think it's so crazy your story with the how you were able to use reiki to solve this seemingly unsolvable problem and just The strength to deal with it for so long i mean i hear about the term suicide headaches cuz people are just like there's nothing in this life that's worth sticking around with his pain for so they just. They exit but man to go through that for so many years,

1:02:22 And then you said reiki can break up kidney stones which is good to know if i feel pain in the future what other conditions do you think reiki is ideal for are there some things you see it as not a good match for people listening who might have arrange of. Ticks and pains and stuff what do you think its best use cases are, I don't want to put it in a box of what is good and isn't good for quite often because i've been really surprised sometimes of what's healed like. I'm gonna give you the most absurd one that's been the most embarrassing thing to do about three years ago this guy who'd like had healings off me,

1:03:06 Tell me a little bit awkward one day is like look you fix this and fix it so i didn't think he'd work. I originally come to see me for therapy and then was curious about ricky, add six days couple of things from my kind remember what they were paying in nothing with marquis had on his body or something as i look every few months i hope its flare up now i've got it now He's like, do you reckon Reiki could fix it? I've got no idea. And he was like what did you tell him? You asked me to heal your cock and it's like yeah that's why I'm like get out here. Sometimes reiki can be done hands off sometimes we can go down hands on. I probably do about 60% hands on nowadays originally I just did all hands-off. I'm like well one I'm not going to touch a dick two you're not taking your pants

1:04:12 A bit go home and call me on zoom so i had to go but i can't guarantee this is gonna work of never like heard of flight ricky's curing herpes or anything like that, i'm sorry i record this guy's dick for an hour we are thinking about my birthday. He told me a few months ago there has been no flare ups again and he hadn't worn that long in his life without a flare up why you haven't gone without a flare up before I know it's been multiple years and he's like i think you cured herpes on my well, i'm not gonna have cured herpes yet cuz i could be back later off like i don't know but the fact that stayed away for that long is amazing i think yeah. On another huge level for me to be comfortable to like how are my hands over guys dick for an hour as a straight man that i couldn't have done use ago

1:05:14 The emotional healing and the maturity that ricky is giving me today didn't ask for you to think so like my emotional intelligence when i first did reiki was like a bag of bricks like, always just dumb oz email over motion alert yes we're now like my whole life revolves around it. And that's been this slow softening that are credit to two right and so Some people come to me for like emotional things some people can't physical things spiritual things and i'll be able to create miracles but some people come from the very same. Emotional thing spiritual thing of physical thing somebody else no way it is an unknown force that can do certain things with some people in car do certain things with others,

1:06:11 And sometimes that could be the timing of it or could be the way of it so like for me to my brain didn't disappear completely from somebody else doing it but once was doing myself, bam happened like it wasn't even a fading thing which is this rushed thing happen i wasn't expecting it so. I open the possibility up of it could fix anything but i'm not gonna guarantee its gonna fix. Anything yeah wonder what is that makes it affects its potency in that way, unpredictability how that is the person like i think my belief about consciousness is we are the energy and that

1:07:00 interfaces with our body and so like a thoughts and emotions and experiences are actually in energy field where i received this picking up on that stuff and if all of your energy is pushing to recreate a problem then it's gonna recreate that problem so. I see some people i'm like, I'm not gonna do energy healing on you today with what. You said like we do hypnosis will break the pattern of this then i have to clear that energy but with what, like talking about the problems can be back again tomorrow because of the way it opens up my thinking in a while acting is going to recreate negative energy again and again and again and get through life that's what your consciousnesses creating within your own energy so ricky might be able to clean that out

1:07:51 What's gonna come back straight away and you got to do something with the source of the problem sometimes first before energy can, can do something and maybe if i tried reiki in the. The first week having that migraine it wouldn't have done anything i don't know maybe i needed to be going through a decade of pain and having those suicide my grandpa To get to the point where when reiki fixed it had my attention big time like if it could be within a week i wouldn't be talking right now i'd be some carpet salesman that. Has no spiritual life because of what new grab my attention but cuz it fix this thing that nothing else could within a decade and it would been like this all pervasive thing you have my every second of life thinking,

1:08:58 I couldn't not think about right i could not want to share i couldn't not wanna chase that dragon and see what else this. This does it could do and i had experience two weeks into doing ricky of like any ten city level of what a reiki experience could be just by doing on myself, I have not reached again i got the mess but i did all the exact same things a very next day to try and recreate that experience. And there was nothing and i got the message of this isn't a toy and that experience you had yesterday was to make you chase the dragon show you the potential now get to work add so, why no like the cap before he can do is up here

1:09:52 where operate when i'm doing amazing is like dad here will operate on my everyday thing if im not like. Doing myself practice work and stand here and there's been times since it's big at the floor in any way that like when are you get sick which i don't give up doing regular daily practices, drop those stresses come in and my kid is coughing right my face Then my levels are really low and I won't do healings on anybody because. I'm not doing much with it and i can even do self healing when i get really low but if i keep things up, so the other week was coffee like right in my face and i was fine didn't get sick cuz they'd been doing the energy stuff but all the times have been lazy enough being stressed out having been eating well and stuff and get sick

1:10:52 So many mysteries around illness to me still. I love to talk to Gordon about that too, all the time we would throw out weird examples and like, I just had Tom Cowan here. He has been a major impact and influence on me in thinking about contagion differently and thinking about other factors but i'm not wholly satisfied with his dismissal of it overall with some real world examples. I think we all have but yet having spent time in the hospital recently It's like wow Why are doctors not constantly sick if it's just being around sick people like it has to be more there's other things going on like and we always say oh why. I went visited my friend in a were second now i'm sick but yet you probably went to the grocery store with five hundred people you don't know at all one of them could've been sick and you just, it something mental i think sometimes

1:11:43 Can you think about it because this was my friend and they were sick and i was exposed but you just don't think about the other exposures of the strangers are walking past, it's bizarre thing it was explained on the simpsons. What is it what wasn't explain on the citizens early episodes but like, has got all these germs in his body trying to get him sick and he wants to have a cd from school. I love the day off is my mom check the temperature is not nice like no test again testing and i'm like the jams and blood cells there unlike blood. What got the word we're gonna give you an amazing. Start we keep getting orders to let the virus when i speak school day later on your arms all right what's make some puffs like it so i know i ask the question about your magic being dangerous and scary and look at these cautionary tales, that is one part of it i mean magic is a huge topic but

1:12:48 You guys are both pretty amazing that you have developed skill sets in this space that are about helping other people. I mean hypnotherapy, the things that alone can do and then the Reiki practice being able to heal herpes and kidney stones and all kinds of things like that is amazing those are superpowers and Matt you make these talismans for For finding love for wealth for fame for all the not just vanity things but all the things a person might. Need to amplify in their life to improve your life help increase their ability to manifest me that's a superpower you both,

1:13:28 Have developed talents in the spaces and astrology to of helping other people get inside into themselves. And so sometimes i'm just like them critics of magic need to fuck off because, They just think that there's one thing it all dialing up spirits and trying to enrich yourself increase all your ego satisfaction type stuff and. It really isn't i mean gordon two he became a shamanic healer people who see through the veil they usually find some talent,

1:14:06 some modality to give it back to others like. I hope the critics i say this all the time when people criticize me or think im some kind of planned are some weird things that people say, i'm like i hope you are as proud of your contributions to the world is i am of mine its a really bad candid wait just be like nothing more about the positive stuff you do instead of criticizing me so much cuz i'm okay with what i do. And i just interview people you know that's all i do so you guys actually solve real problems and amplify, things are lacking in peoples lives and it is amazing and i think that's what's so great about room soup what gordon belt i don't know another place like it

1:14:48 And the people i've talked to you know since his passing have all had a knacker talent and one part of the dark arts. And it almost is always about service, others and yes this becomes peoples jobs but hey if your good at something you don't do it for free and everybody has a job no u can be in insurance salesman in a cubicle Or you can be an astrology reader, a birth chart reader and make talismans. I just think it's amazing! Even if they don't have a lot of magical experience should be a little more respectful of those who do this kind of stuff but

1:15:29 Thanks for spending the time with me. Definitely thank you for sending this out I'm gonna be careful but i'm definitely going to have to use it any future projects you guys are working on or definitely take time to give them the links and all the services you do offer if they feel motivated to engage Yeah, by all means. Look you can find me at dragonstoneastrology.com that's where all of the stuff is that's where my own podcast is The Dragonstone Astrology Show sorry to plug that! All good, who doesn't have a podcast? Yeah exactly you get one when you're a millennial basically and you turn 30 they just you know you get a podcast now I've got a couple of books up there I got some short courses I got The Talismans of course and then there's the services that I offer readings

1:16:14 Not necessarily face to face, sometimes with people in different time zones the availability doesn't match and so I do pre-recorded ones as well. Readings via email etc and check it out dragonstoneastrology.com. Branchthehealing.com.au I do sessions on zoom or in person with hypotherapy reiki counseling NLP stuff I've got a podcast which i randomly occasionally do interviews. I'm very much not regular with that last time we spoke with Gordon he was kicking my ass to be regular with that and to start a membership, that will be coming sometime in the next couple of months been mapping out an energy healing course thats got Reiki but isn't just Reikian is really

1:17:05 Easy simple steps to build somebody skill with doing energy healing. Will be putting out this soon as a manager to guide people through, i do have another project coming up that links energy healing and talismans will be quite awhile away i think it's over your waiting for the election is not enough time for me to teach myself alchemy which is a part of it as well so that's pretty cool So a healing talisman of some kind. Yes! Yeah, we'd have more details but we haven't quite fleshed those out just yet. Follow us for a year or two and you'll find out.

1:17:52 People love the long arc of follow ups on podcast they did no one here is nothing right exactly what you would send when your not the other but. Amazing i definitely even with talking to gordon i was feeling more motivated i was like you know i should do something i should become some kind healer or something but maybe raky as a thing that seems like there's a fairly logical path too, Getting to know a local reiki master and then there's a pretty normal. Passing down of the torch i guess or i guess breakie masters it's not uncommon to say teach me self reiki, yes yeah like i think that's fundamental part of it you can learn in a day like up with a great one class on every month once a month is really easy i do six hour class and by the end of lunchtime people doing it

1:18:48 So scary half a life and that to be able to do that in yourself or your kids it's just amazing like my son he got reiki. From when i first found out was pregnant at five weeks all the way till like when you were but I held him for hours and gave me energy so, That's beautiful thing you can have as a connection kid help me out when the scraped and stuff like that he still ask for energy now when, when has it been amazing so yeah i think its huge but when i open my membership all send your link in free access.

1:19:32 You learn energy you've done so much already but i appreciate that kids are always hurting themselves and if it's easy here speaking my language like easy. Awesome thanks again guys i know the work that went into the pendulum said it is an honor to have it, thanks for even providing the dates i can consecrated on idu plan too i always have a wrap up of every interview i plan hold onto this one a little bit as its evergreen kind of And when i do consecrated and have a session then i'll talk about my results. Right there in the wrap up and all be package together regardless of how much time it separated by so, it might not come out right away but i hope we have something to add to it when it does and thank you for your time and i was getting late over their appreciate everything you thanks for spending time with me having one

1:20:23 Thanks great and listen thanks for that introduction to man getting a great car would introduction is like a career highlight for me man i should have thank you at the start but i was kind of all struck. It's easy it's easy but i appreciate that nonetheless your legend mate, you guys got way more talents than me so alright well take care take my chest Oh, oh it's magic people. Whew! Been a while since we had two guests been awhile since we went so hard into practical personal techniques for magical practice So overdue in a couple ways and I think I said this in the episode I know I've said it before I say it to a lot of people all the time when talking about magic and the occult I don't personally have to engage with it very often at all To be confident that its real and works

1:21:21 how many of us don't personally exercise but you can talk to plenty of people who do and discern that it works to transform your body. And another parallel is that if you don't know what you're doing with magic or exercise, in both cases it's easy to get hurt! That's why I don't do it a lot mainly on the magic side I'll also say, i've never heard a more convincing case for Reiki. My god Lance's story is really insane And it just seems so powerful to be able to heal others. I thought about this a lot ever since Gordon got shamanically trained and started doing his own healings, Reiki is probably more my speed but what an amazing skill to acquire if you can really alleviate your wife's migraines or remove pain from your kid sprained ankle

1:22:17 It is a damn superpower and just the mindset of a person who wants to engage in learning that apply their energy to fixing other people. I mean, that's a good-natured kind soul. I like it also the care and attention that goes into the material and the timing of Matt's talismans is super impressive You can say that they're expensive and I would not argue, but jewelry that does nothing is very expensive. To have Matt assess your personal astrology and come up with a talisman that maybe fills in the gaps or band-aids over something in your chart that looks like a source of struggle...or whatever? And then cater it to your aesthetic liking? That's also sort of giving someone a superpower

1:23:12 Sometimes it's hard for me to get into this stuff because it's so outside of the interest or knowledge base of anyone in my actual everyday life. But doing an interview like this reminds me that if everything is energy and you truly believe that, then this stuff is real! And why not engage with it to some degree? In a safe way... So I did I planned this show out and didn't want it to be just an advertisement for a $1200 pendulum set, but if we talked about the history of some of this stuff and the studies that have made it more convincing as legitimate art form. The Knee Twitch story being such a great example is so crazy

1:23:57 And also we could talk about Lance's Reiki healing story and all that together. We'd have a well-rounded interview on top of this very personal experimentation, the plus show adds a lot of other stuff as always the second hour gets deeper become a plus member and get more of the show you apparently like the higher side chats.com alright And they did not ask for an interview by the way. I don't think they ever expected it, they literally just gifted me this because they were confident in the set and wanted to give someone like me the best tool for the job and i'm very grateful! To be reciprocal and do something outside of the box instead of making this a private thing...I kind of put myself on blast. Now for the report

1:24:45 The next timing window on the chart that they gave me came around. It was September 3rd at 747 AM, pretty much perfect because that is when my kids leave for school almost exactly so to consecrate it I got out my old magic box and luckily I had everything I needed. I had a basin for burning incense and a charcoal briquette and seven white candles in a bell And you might occasionally see my altar back there on the bookshelf in the background with really just a cross from my grandparents, a crucifix really I know. My dad's ashes and the owl is from my mom's dead brother and the little guy in robes there on the edge that you can't see the top of his Saint Cyprian which is something I got from Gordon, The Patron Saint Of Magic

1:25:40 Basically, Gordon for all the criticisms he did once tell me that he avoids labels but the closest thing would probably be esoteric Christianity. Because I think what he liked is these old saints who had to hide their magic or find a way to be savvy enough to preserve their magical talents and art forms in a way in which the church didn't kill them. And Saint Cyprian, that is basically his story to the best of my knowledge and I think Gordon respected that a lot. I would not want to pontificate on why but I think that you know Gordon being gay, I think he learned how to navigate a straight world and stay true to himself but also play in the waters with people who don't

1:26:31 care about that part of his life and don't really want to hear about it all that often. I think you could interact with Gordon a lot before you ever realized he was gay, i think the same can be said about Tim Dillon That's why people love Tim Dillon so much And me and Gordon both talked about Tim Dillon all the time But I think there is some parallel thinking in respect In the sense that A magician at certain time depth would have too Pretend to be something he wasn't just to stay alive and it's not exactly as drastic today But there obviously is some parallel and I understand why Gordon liked Saint Cyprian, but yes. I have that altar back there then the only point is that some of this stuff I needed I keep up there because I Read Gordon's books and I have these supplies even if I don't use them very much

1:27:24 For this, I made a dedicated space because i didn't think that was good enough based on the book. I cleaned the area, I showered as recommended, I wore all white if you can believe that I have all white but I do and uh...I came in with as much humility and reverence as possible. I added a water offering because the book says their instructions are the absolute minimum so I wanted to do one extra thing for good measure And there is an incantation in the book that you need to recite seven times, and it's a long one. And I also just want to note for the people who are maybe turned off by magic or think it's very dark, or their Christian bias distorts their view without having ever engaged with the material, The incantation says with humble and unworthy utterance In the name which is above all names I call upon the Seven Sisters That is the opening line

1:28:18 And then later on, a few paragraphs later it says grant that this talisman protect the light of the eyes gather diamonds, daemons and spirits of the dead to come and speak. And make the user to know of secrets and hidden things I ask this with humble and unworthy utterance in the name that is above all names and in the power of the almighty so God's in the mix here To me basically does just sound like a request, an appeal to God asking hey if you're alright with it this is what I'm trying to do. And this is pretty much every book I've ever read. I know there are way darker ones yes but for the most part everything I've read comes through the guests largely Gordon but Stephen Skinner and a few others and it all kind of has this tone to it which I don't think is all that bad

1:29:12 To me, this is personal power granted by God and only banned by church authorities who want a monopoly on such powers and want to be the middlemen between you and your creator of which you are apart. So I don't feel that this is anything dark at all so just wanted to point that out Now, here was a quick picture of my setup that I took because something very poetic just happened to happen naturally. And if only got a few visuals to share all add them the show notes and describe them well for the listeners But you see my seven white candles around the incense, and look how six are bright flames and one just happens to be a very dim flame. Now I can't control that! I can't control the brightness of a flame The candle is clearly lit but how poetic is that given that one of the Seven Sisters is much dimmer than the others?

1:30:05 To me, that is like very compelling. It's a nice sign that something is working because I promise you it stayed that way the whole time too So I did the ritual to consecrate it and then I closed it and I saged the house to be careful And from that point on its supposed to be ready for use and... Its just like I put the SIM card in my spirit phone right? So then I engaged with it. I asked the Seven Sisters to connect me to Gordon, and if he was with me and it did move to yes after I did the calibration of course Now what I'm putting on the screen is my calibration diagram with notes on it so as I started to go I realized that I wanted to write some things down It was the closest piece of paper I had so I just used it. I didn't want to ruin the groove or get up from space

1:30:56 and the surface was a little bumpy, and I wasn't planning on showing it to anyone at the time. And I wrote some of this with my off hand while I held the pendulum in my dominant left hand so just don't judge my handwriting! It was really just so I could scribble down enough to keep things straight That said, I started with the yes or no questions because they are easiest to determine with the pendulums movement but honestly there's not a lot i need to know that has a yes or no answer. Maybe I'll get more creative later, but i should also preface this with context. I did talk to James personally Gordon's partner after Gordon died and he gave me more closure on Gordon's death he gave me more context that answered some of my unanswered questions and I said to him hey man please give the runesuit people this context because there's a lot of speculation out there

1:31:48 a lot of people are being shitty and a lot of others just wanna know what happened to their guy. And if you just tell them, A lot of the mystery and speculation and shitty comments will die down." So James did exactly that! Now I feel more comfortable saying that Gordon had checked into his Airbnb He was supposed to have a call with James and he missed that call. So, James became concerned enough time went by that James called the host of the Airbnb to do a wellness check and the host went by and found Gordon dead on the kitchen floor when they got him examined The findings were consistent with a heart attack We know he had previous heart incidents And he thought they were solved but you never really know

1:32:39 I might have more to add about the work he was doing and the sect he was working with because i did contact her in Central America and I did talk to a lot she gave me pictures and stuff. And I'm planning to do a clip show that would be all the best things he said over the 14 episodes we did, but it would be a nice addition to save that for then. But these are the details about his death that I think are important in the context of my questions right? So I asked him were you in pain when you died and he said no. I asked if he had any intuition that he might not survive this trip and he also said no. I asked if he was seeking out the protection

1:33:23 of the spirit that that sect kind of venerates. I asked him if he was trying to protect his health and heart through seeking out this La Muerte spirit, and it kinda went to maybe which probably means that it was a factor but not the primary one knowing Gordon. I would think the primary factor was just getting deep into it for his third book So then I moved on to the questions that would require spelling things out, which on the board requires a lot more precision. And that's hard! But as I said in the interview, I worked out a couple of questions that Gordon would know the answer to that. That could help me determine if this was a real connection So i asked can you tell me the name Of the tapas bar that you took me and Teresa too in London Because it was a great meal and I was way too drunk To remember the name And just into the conversation You know The surroundings are what they are I barely remember anything but The general vibe of man that food Was great

1:34:26 It was kind of a dark basement-y sort of place. I remember red and black, and a private booth sort of vibe And that's at the bottom of the sheet here you can see it very clearly went to P and then i and then I thought O but p and o are right next to each other so who knows? And then i h k n l Now, I wasn't getting swings that actually reached the letters on the outside of the board so it did take a little guessing. But I said okay! I think i have enough to go on to start searching on the internet and I found a tapas bar in London called Pintxos

1:35:16 Pinetokes? It's weird. But the pictures really did not seem like a match, it was way too bright and vibrant So I really wanted to say yes but...I can't if i'm being honest And I do also see the word Pizarro on here that's just another place I found that seems like a miss so not worth talking about I looked further and I found one called Grimio de Brexton And the description says, this highly atmospheric tapas bar is uniquely set inside a subterranean crypt underneath St. Matthew's Church! It features a cavernous layout, low skillful lighting with mysterious dark pockets and brick archways that lean heavily into an historic gothic vibe

1:36:04 Authentic Spanish small plates are ordered and brought straight to your table. It permanently closed in 2025, but when I look at these pictures the memories just flood back in. I'm pretty sure that's where we were I also asked if this tapas place was walkable from another bar called The Plow because Gordon took us there first and he told me it was where Crowley used to drink, and that's the part that i always remembered. And so yes! This happens to be a 15 minute walk from there... ...and I am convinced that the right place was Gremio de Brexton And really none of those letters match, which is disappointing. But the description is also very Gordon and so it just fits and I guess they should say there are ways in which these

1:36:52 P and these other letters actually was right. Maybe I'm misremembering, I'm really just going on vibes but i can't stress enough how this other spot really feels like the right one but maybe even Gordon's misremembering maybe one of these other spots like Pizarro or Pix was one of his favorites and we just didn't go there that night so if I'm honest yes the pendulum moved to p very aggressively in these other letters And here's two tapas bars that start with P that are in Soho, but I don't know. I'm gonna say it was a miss... But it's not 100%. There are ways in which it wasn't a miss

1:37:35 Then I asked about this pit stop we took in the middle of walking around London. I don't recall if it was before or after dinner, but he said that we had to stop at this one place they serve a rare liqueur that I really should have so we stopped for a single drink not much bigger than a shot glass and he told me about it and I forgot everything So I asked the pendulum board what was this liqueur? And in the top right, you see the letters I got. R-O-L-N-O So it was swinging a lot to the second half of the alphabet and not at all to the first half With those letters i went searching and found there's a liquor called

1:38:17 Rosalio, a rose liqueur called the Apertivo of Kings. Apertif of kings essentially it is a special liqueur that has had a resurgence in London over the last decade and so on that one I do think that was a better hit and reading that i was like oh yes it was floral It wasn't aperitif you know the whole vibe of like the classiness of like Oh! You drink this at a certain part of the meal after the meal I think that was it. I am gonna consider that a hit again, i'm kind of just going off feeling... I think some of the letters could have been interpreted wrong by me but it was clearly the second half of the alphabet over and over and that's R-O S O L I O

1:39:02 And I did write down the first letter, R correctly and an L and two Os. After doing the consecration and trying to meditate and tap in again...I was pretty mentally exhausted honestly! I don't do this very often but i wanted to try one more and asked if he had a message for listeners of THC and Runesuit And I got, this is so crazy but S-O-M-M-O-N Simon with two Ms. Really kind of bizarre. I went searching and found this The call to listen in spiritual and biblical etymology, Simon with two Ms is the root sound for the Hebrew name Shimon which became Simon in the West. The literal meaning of this root word is to hear, to listen or God has heard when a spirit signals this sound it's often a profound reminder that your prayers or inner thoughts have been heard by the divine or your guides alternatively it is a direct

1:40:06 directive telling you to stop, become still and listen closely to the subtle signs around you. Poof! So that actually seems like the best hit of all probably a good message for everyone that Gordon would want to put out there again it's awkward to hold the thing swing it and then write down each letter not too bind myself to negative language, but historically I'm also just not good at this stuff. To use the phone analogy again, I would assume there's going to be a very shaky signal on my end... A bad connection no matter how clearly the other party is speaking But this was my first try having not meditated effectively probably since my kids were born so let's call it five years

1:40:57 And then I asked him if i could call on him occasionally as a spirit guide and he also said yes. And then I said my goodbyes, and closed it out and all that... And I don't know guys! I'm not really here to convince anyone. I'm just reporting the results? I wish I could have reported something more absolutely spot-on convincing certainly better for the show but I'm not gonna lie about this sort of thing But even still It wasn't a complete dud or anything I really think i'd be better going through a medium because I think their signal is stronger than my own. I think these techniques and processes are legitimate but, because of our everything for profit system unfortunately it's really hard to sort through the liars and frauds to find the authentically good talented people... And I just get exhausted by the process to be honest with you

1:41:52 So I got a couple interesting hits, enjoyed actually committing to the process. I didn't really feel anything physically but the pendulum did 100% move on its own without any effort from me and that alone is pretty wild experience i would say and that's about all she wrote on that And higher side news the last show i put up was guy anderson and i expected it to be a bit more well liked with the framing of things as the abc's conspiracy and going only for the ones that were. A little more rare and obscure things we don't hear about all the time,

1:42:29 But this one leveled off at a 4.4 I think a couple of the subpar reviews might be the Archaic's Brigade or small aspect of that, that certainly is true for the YouTube comments And others did say they just found it to be tame overall That i'll accept Guy's work isn't actually not controversial depending on how you look at it He likes Tartaria and the resets, and the idea of cloning in incubator babies at the world's fairs. And even the antiquitex stuff but he is not really going after false flags or mass shooting events or current geopolitics in Israel those seem to be much more triggering or risky topics But I do think anything adjacent to alternative energy Or anything that leads one to think about a modern cataclysmic cycle can be right on that line

1:43:18 But whatever, 4.4 we call that a B around here I know i try to maintain a high standard with these ratings and A B feels low to me but... I already feel this will be kind of mixed episode because it's so personal and all that And..I could see some people just not being into it or down for it Another one I have recorded is just a guy who I would say Failed to highlight what is interesting about his own book despite how many nudges I gave to try and get us into the right groove that the audience would be entertained by. It was the first one in a long time where i got off the call and felt, man well...I don't know what I can do to massage that into something good but it's what it is And you'll have to discern who im talking about even if its not the next one to come out it will come out soon and then you'll know

1:44:15 But I am excited about some of the stuff i have on the calendar and expect several of them to be quite good but you never really know until you do the dance. Alright, well meetup calendars gonna bring us home as always let's take a look September 13th St Paul Minnesota Blackstack Brewing October 3rd Cobden Illinois at Feather Hills Vineyard & Winery getting classy in Illinois Mysteries of Little Egypt that's what they want to talk about okay go Join in October 4th, Urbania Illinois Riggs Brewing Illinois coming in hot. And then we have basically that's it so two new ones added to the calendar thankfully otherwise we would be talking about one event go forth and throw some stuff on there higher side meetups dot com for more info on these particular events or just go on and make your own free and easy to do

1:45:12 Good way to find other people in your area that like weird stuff. Alright, I'm calling it in! Thank you for listening Take care of you and yours Your move Esoteric toolbox takers Magical worldview erasers And of course the never-ending chorus line Of occult critics You're fucking booed I see you sitting in traffic and you look so stuck No sense of adventure just a routine fuck They can diagnose depression But don't know why you're bored Mystery comes knocking but you don't answer the door No, there are lights in the sky Not found on any Creatures deep in the forest That no ranger has tagged There are things in the ocean You won't see from the land Life's under no obligation To make sure you understand

1:46:21 I'm told the truth is out there when you get past the lies It comes when you least expect it and it wears a disguise. It'll tell you everything just for goof Can't take any pictures, won't have any proof So I watch ya live like he never wanted it A lost soul that's forgotten what really haunted is But just let me say This is a horror approach to seizing the day There are things you can know That you can't even think No doctor has medicine like the shaman's next drink Sleep is never better Than inside of the dream

1:47:31 Who promised you anything would be as it seems I'm told the truth is out there when you get past the lies It comes when you least expect it and it wears a disguise And it'll tell you everything, yeah Just for... Can't take any pictures Won't have