Gordon White | Understanding Gnosticism, Parapolitics, & Chaos Magic

00:04 In the 1930s, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed a nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the Fireside Chats. His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times but we're far from 1930 and I deal with a different kind of fire For a new era of worldly frustration We offer a fresh conversation! I'm Greg Carlwood These are The Hireside Chats How the hell are you higher side chatters? Better than ever I hope. Drinking the drink, smoking the smoke and getting that seat and tray table in the upright locked position because we're about to take off from sunny San Diego! I'm Greg Carlwood And today were gonna get some angles on Gnosticism, Archons The history of magic and the elite and the whole Pandora's box of parapolitical pieces of the big conspiracy puzzle with Gordon White An accomplished chaos magician and man behind the words at runesoup.com

00:58 and a listener of THC, and a subscriber of THC+, which I think adds dimension to the conversation that we don't get very often. Some guests are people who just make the rounds on shows like ours and we walk through the summary of their work. But because Gordon is familiar with the topics and guests that we've had here, I think that puts him in a better position to speak to this audience in a way that we all enjoy It's funny it's casual its definitely informative and interesting And I don't think anybody will come away feeling like We Jumped The Shark which may have happened a few times recently even The Fonz wasn't perfect And with that said, let's loiter at that curious crossroads between Magic Lane and Parapolitics Avenue with a guy who knows those streets oh too well. Gordon White

01:49 Alright people, we know the world is a lot weirder than the news network's narrative, the school system sedation and matrix of mediocrity that has been carefully conjured around our collective consciousness. But tongue twisters aside today were going to examine that weird reality look into some hidden history and put magic back under the microscope to see which parts might be useful in our own lives how the elite have used it and help us break free from prison bars around our brains And to do that we got chaos magician and witty writer Gordon White who resides in London and has been talking about these things on his amazing blog at runesoup.com. Gordon is another guest suggestion from the fine folks over at THC plus, after I read some of his arcanology series I knew it would be a good fit so let's do the damn thing! Gordon my man welcome to THC how are you?

02:33 I'm great, it's a pleasure to be here. As you know Greg, I am a THC Plus member myself and uh...I love the show! Yes and thanks so much for that you might actually be the first Plus subscriber to also be a guest. I couldn't think of a better person for that this should be a lot of fun i do love your work too Your writing is just full little lines that perfectly summarize things like never seem to get out very fluidly And covers a lot ground too magic, Gnosticism, Archons crimes at the elite all sorts high strangeness It's definitely right up my alley and I'm sure we're going to jump all over the place. But, I did want to kind of try start from this era of Gnosticism and this time when magic wasn't so weird The concept of the Archons has come up a lot it's a popular idea So... We should know more about where it came from but this era is very confusing me there's so much that's been lost so much thats been twisted And one your great lines that talks about this

03:25 is when you say that the story of the past changes with every present. And that's just so well said, and it really explains why its so hard to get to the truth of anything especially in an era thats so old But what would you say are the important things people should know about the Gnostics? Well, the Gnostics have almost a double or triple dose of that changed past situation because we for about one and a half thousand years all we really knew about them was written by their detractors. It was written by a guy called Irenaeus in sort of about 180 and he was actually the first person to ever mention the four canonical gospels Matthew Mark Luke and John so before that the whole

04:09 Christianity was in this weird, confusing Mediterranean mess. Now this is sort of like asking Fox News what's going on in Syria because he is a competitor he's not a fan of the Gnostics and so even if the descriptor we're talking about a very broad church of a lot of really weird, but good weird people and practices and groups that spread out across the Mediterranean that have combined Hellenism and Judaism in early Christianity in Egyptian magic. And we're all putting it together in this sort of umbrella

04:45 goal or umbrella belief that obviously Gnosticism comes from the word gnosis, which means knowledge. And in this case it means personal knowledge. It's the idea that you can have that direct unmediated experience of the divine and so we sort Only vaguely knew what these people were like from their detractors until maybe the mid 20th century and we discover the Nag Hammadi library and start to see some of the text and match it to some other groups, very mean spirited sayings that attract us around the time. So there's a number of reasons why drawing a bead on Gnosticism is extremely difficult in fact many PhDs have tried and failed. Then I don't feel quite as dumb!

05:28 So you might have been quoting someone else when you said this, but I've heard you say that the Archon story almost reads like Jesus fan fiction. And I thought that was a great way to put it and I see why someone would say that but it is that interconnection between Christianity and Gnosticism That's sort of confusing to me because I almost feel like they're opposites. Can you clarify that at all? Sure! I will tell you that was a quote from Chris Knowles of The Secret Sun which my favorite blog. He was referring to Gnosticism being, if you read the text and it's true if you look at something like the Gospel of Mary It looks like these groups are writing Jesus fan fiction and he meant that in a positive way because obviously his background and interest is in superheroes and their relationship to gods and the unconsciousness all that kind of stuff His book is called Our Gods Wear Spandex and its excellent

06:19 What he meant by that is, well I guess you have to back it up. We have this default view and it's historically wrong that there was a guy called Jesus the default view even if you're atheist is all the stuff about walking on water and loaves of fish is is Balderdasch but there was obviously this guy wandering around Jerusalem now That's not good history. You're basically just removing the bits you don't like and leaving the bits that you find acceptable, even though they both have zero evidence Now what we're experiencing in, shall we say Bible studies or biblical archaeology is the same thing that happened to Moses in the 70s In the 70s people started to realize Moses never really existed Like here you have Manu, you have Menes, you have all these lawgiver

07:08 types that existed prior to Moses in the story. I mean, there's no parting of the Red Sea, there was no great chunk of Jewish slaves in Egypt—there were plenty of Jews in Egypt but none of these things happened and so you had this kind of tentative put their head above the parapet and say, I don't think this happened! And that was quite radical because obviously biblical archaeology sort of province of retired Church of England vicars and really quite Bible-thumping, sort of Southern American... well, Southern State American Christian groups would fly over to Israel and dig up stuff and say look I found the Palace of Solomon. So you're dealing with a hundred and fifty years of academia that has a vested interest in a particular version of the story Now that version of the story is Jesus

07:57 existed and there's like zero evidence at all that that ever happened. And every piece of his life is foreshadowed in previous myths now this is fine because if you look at the groups, I mean you get This is really quite popular amongst atheist groups at the moment like hooray Jesus didn't exist That equals there was no God Now thats a really bad cognitive jump Because when I encountered this material I thought the opposite My problem with Jesus Was always that the stories were not correct like this is just garbage these things physically happen. What appears to be the case is it at the time you had people like final about alexandria talking about the logos which is a greek idea of this the word of this animating force from the divine kind of

08:46 By encountering or experiencing that you redeem yourself and the world we start to see all these pieces that fall into the kind of jesus narrative later so these are these groups where i think they would have been quite long when people came over from. Let's say Rome or Italy, or the North Mediterranean Roman province and said so this Jesus guy where did he live? And they'd be like I'm sorry what? Where did Superman live there you're talking about things that can't exist on a physical plane. When you realize that a lot of bizarre pieces of the Gospels make sense The Gospel of Mary which i mentioned before is actually one of my favorite gospel texts

09:26 And they're all sitting in this room and I think it's Peter, might have been Paul but sort of says to Mary why is Jesus talking to you? She bursts into tears and it's basically like do you think I made this up. Do you think I'm I'm just inventing this son of God talking to me in my head. And you go, well that's really weird why don't they just ask him? Is he in the room with him if he is talking to Mary and then you suddenly think hang on I am reading a transcript of his seance. Right! And when you hear Jesus say whenever there are two or three gathered in My name I am there, seance not an actual seance like they're summoning a dead person but what your seeing here the filtering through of the idea that Jesus is a concept, and I mean that they literally believed in him but they didn't believe he existed in the physical world. You see it sort of accidentally filtering through these texts and then you get the inevitable conflating down for imperial Roman political reasons of a definitive story that they can lock down and control

10:20 And that's been the one that we've decided was actual history. And that's really spun us for a loop for quite some time, 50-60 years. That's the other reason why getting a bead on Gnosticism is like well so what is Jesus in some kind of spaceship? In this one and he's talking through a cave and now he's in a shipwreck. What's happening here? It's because Ideas particularly for the gnostics because it's the material realm was not what was divine but it wasn't perfect. Jesus physically couldn't exist in the physical realm because its production of the demiurge, created by a false god and if he is perfect he can't be down here so he exists in this realm that you need to contact him and get that redemption or rebirth through the son Logos, this Jesus figure

11:09 And there you have the kind of, I would say 80% of the reason why it's so confusing when you get... When you encounter Gnosticism through parapolitics where it is so confusing to get your head around. Well where are these terms that are coming at me from? Like Archon and like Demiurge because I'm all at sea with them and that's largely why you're talking about a really exciting but very chaotic soup of different ideas encountering each other and mixing in a time of quite significant economic and social change You're right man, it is super tough but wow you really got me with those seance examples. That really explains why we see this mixing of magic and early Christianity and why the Gospels are so weird At least it makes a lot of sense to me because I had kind of been thinking that the two really just clashed Because didn't Gnosticism predate Christianity? And I guess we can say that none of them saw Jesus as a real person which I wasn't sure about But I guess your saying all came later with Romans right

12:05 Literally all came later, but to go back to your question because I think it's very important as to is Gnosticism pre-christian. The short answer is yes But not by much I would call I would characterize It as Jew Egyptian you had in say after the destruction of the second temple actually before it frankly but in that end of the second temple destruction period period you had a widespread dissatisfaction with the Jewish elite. You had the sort of people associated with the temple and highborn families getting land grants from the Flavian, so the imperial royal family getting land grants to the guy who founded rabbinical Judaism got given this great chunk of Mediterranean land by the emperor and then he sets up this version

12:49 Judaism which kind of works with what the Empire wants and you have this we think of these kind of hijacks We think if the negative things that Catholic Church has done or the hijack of say the federal government But it happened to the Jews as well. It happened to the Jews several centuries before it happened to anyone else So you're starting to have this idea and I'll come back to How I can tie those two together so you have a lot of widespread dissatisfaction, particularly in Alexandria. What I didn't know until a few months ago maybe a year ago was that Alexandria was actually the most Jewish city outside of Israel in the Mediterranean possibly up to 30% of the population is Jewish so you have Egyptians and Jews and Greeks all these people mixing together

13:31 Now if you look at, say the Setians which are a sect of Gnostics and they're probably the most popular ones like when you talk about archons in a parapolitical sense You're really talking about how the Setians saw the world and they were either thought of themselves as descendants of Seth or that Jesus was sort of an emanation of Seth because you can discern in their scriptures, so The Apocryphal of John for instance. That they were deeply unimpressed with Temple Judaism their demiode, so the evil god that created the world is called Yaldabaoth which is very close to Yahweh and you start to see... And also if they think they're descended from Seth then what they're doing is distancing themselves from this sort of Davidic

14:23 Elite mess and so as a result you have an effect one of them i mentioned earlier final valentine's from the richest family that wasn't real in the mediterranean at the time he traveled and this is one of the proofs why. I think there was no jesus and i think pretty good with it not on physical route He was actually in Jerusalem at the time when Jesus was supposed to be doing things like having everyone hail him as their king and encircling the town with a wall, and all these things that should appear in the archaeological record you would think. But he had this idea, he introduced that Hellenic idea of the logos or logos is the word into his kind of esoteric Judaism So there wasn't esoteric Judaism picked up Hellenistic ideas and Egyptian ideas

15:12 It's a question of it does Gnosticism predate Christianity or do we pull Christianity back? Earlier than the kind of arbitrary dates of 0 BC to 33 AD because those events didn't happen Because you have people at 70 ad give-or-take Talking about this logos and how it can redeem you and it's the Son of God that redeems the world So is that Christianity, right? Yeah. That's so confusing well, it's it's a mangrove swamp. So, it's where- It's half land and it's half water and it's really fertile and all these different ideas are bouncing around. And that's great! And it's also a prime opportunity for a hijack which is what inevitably happened. So yeah, Gnosticism predates Christianity

15:57 I would say definitively, because if we date it from 33 AD for instance. We shouldn't the earliest mention gospel-wise is 94 AD so even these are supposed eyewitnesses one lifetime away from the events that they were describing and they're terrible at it like the gospel descriptions... The gospels all written in Greek can mention taverns in Rome by name but describe Palestinian geography like they heard about on a radio in Japan! Like everything's wrong You can start to again triangulate where the official story is emanating from and it's Rome, obviously.

16:36 Yeah, and you mentioned that the Jewish faith underwent the earliest manipulation of this stuff. I wouldn't say earliest but yeah... Right right right we don't know what the earliest was! No exactly But an earlier one than Christianity And do you think that has anything to do with why so many people today see the Jews as the highest elite? No, I think that's unfortunate and much more recent. And by much more recent, I mean from sort of 500 AD Actually, the description you can tell how the Gospels get quite anti-Semitic. The earliest one is Mark and he's the one who could name taverns in Rome and can't get geography right. He mentions the destruction of a temple which happens in 70 AD so right away you're talking about someone who wasn't there but Jesus goes from being

17:31 I do to buy the time you get to call which is a gospel where can we get to say his letters they referring to the jews as this separate group. Hang on and obviously quite disparagingly as well like that's where you start to see like oh, well the Jews let their Messiah get killed and blah blah blah anything. No That's really it's a very odd thing for a Jewish text to start getting anti-semitic to right So you can see there be Attempts at controlling in Imperial Province or at least influencing how it sees the world There's a great book in a great series of books by a guy called Joseph Atwill about Caesar's Messiah And he sort of tracks

18:10 the Flavian imperial project through the Holy Land and lines up Jesus's ministry with Titus' Imperial military campaigns. And they're all there, like Titus was the one that encircled Jerusalem with a wall he did the abomination of desolation like all these things and the idea is that they were writing these books about something that happened 60 or 50 years before Titus got there to foreshadow Titus's arrival. So oh look, it's the second coming It's the Jews Messiah and it turns out to be the Emperor of Rome Israel was a really difficult province for the Romans because they're the emperor would show up in Egypt and spend the night in a temple And say the gods there office has come to me I am his son and everyone's like whatever you know, and they go on with their gods and stuff The Jews were having none of that Like we have our God You want him? And you aren't the Messiah

19:06 And so you had to have a different way of inserting, we would say propaganda. You had to have a different way of inserting imperial propaganda into that particular province and that's his thesis and I think there is a lot to say for that. All the earliest Catholic saints are members of the Flavian royal family for instance. There is just... The author Christian apologists will use to say Jesus existed is a guy called Josephus, but his full name is Flavius Josephus and he was adopted by the empire and became his chief propagandist. So it's very much... there is nothing new in the world. Hijacks happen

19:46 God, man. We're not even a half hour into this thing and my head's already spinning but in a good way really it's just that I've never heard much of these angles before so it gets a little tangled with preconceived notions Like here's one, it seems like at least in the conspiracy world when people talk about Gnostics they're putting out this idea that the god of the three major religions this Yahweh Demiurge entity This being that created the earth is actually a negative entity and that dark members of the elite have created these mind control religions where they've told everyone that their really worshipping a peaceful loving God

20:21 But that's just not the case. And this also would dovetail into why there is so much pedophilia and corruption and ritual sacrifice among the elites, or at least in rumors... I think that story sounds good but i don't really know how much truth there is to it Do you put much stock in that storyline? Or is it off in some way? Yeah, I don't That we might call that say like the David Icke view of modern Gnosticism. Yeah fair and and i mean, I've written about him on the blog I don't have a problem with him I see in this part of a continuum of very odd British mystics like America creates Tom Cruise And we create David Icke and he lives in a shitty seaside town and it's a Cultures throw up odd mystics and I respect them for that It's sort of like a... He had some kind of profound experience in South America Like a Wootley Strieber-esque life changing incident

21:11 And now he's gone chasing after lizards and pedophiles because that's what happens when you encounter spirits, something really worldview or paradigm shifting. But no I don't... the evidence for a continuity of that one isn't there when it's absent but two it relies on failure to understand what Yahweh was, and also that kind of... I just get this weird feeling. See this Brotherhood of Saturn thing is the new way of saying the Jews because they always go back to, oh well look, Yahweh is Saturn so the Jews are secretly worshipping this horned beardy God of Death Now that's really bad magic! And Yahweh is certainly associated with Saturn The Sabbath being Saturday, Saturnday But Yahweh is associated with Saturn for very

22:02 specific mystical and astrological reasons. If you think about the worldview of astrology where the world is in the middle because it doesn't go anywhere, and you have your Sun-you have your Moon and your Sun and then Mercury and then Venus. The furthest one out at the astrological system is Saturn so it's a slowest moving planet in astrology and beyond that is this sort of supernal realms thats where God lives and everything from Saturn down is the manifest world So there's no evil death cult that the Jews have perpetrated through the century. People will come to those conclusions if they're either A, anti-Semitic or B don't understand magic and in a lot of cases I think maybe A and B both apply so we need to detach those ideas from it each time this happens... This is what i mean by there's nothing new

22:51 Each time it happens, and this is why I think Gnosticism is so valuable even as a metaphor. You have this awareness that the people who are in control of the world. I'm running it for you never will don't have your best interest at heart and i probably not very good, you experience that with the nastic rejection of second temple judaism and roman christianity and the rest of we experiencing now because we are experiencing a great experience saying imperial control mechanism and we're looking for the right metaphor how that can exist in a universe that say, listens to the show will be aware. The story doesn't begin and end with materialism so it's like how am I reconciling the presence of this power and its malicious intent with the universe that I can occasionally and hopefully more within increasing level encounters experience as quite wonderful?

23:48 And out of that you sort of get this, I think it's really useful. Out of that you sorta get this Gnostic worldview There is a famous... which one is in? It's from the Hypostasis of the Archons or The Reality of the Rulers But what happened was the perfect God, so in Pleroma we're sort of creating these emanations. And they got to one called Sophia and then Sophia had a child called Samuel and Samuel created the material universe in an echo of that first instance of pure creation. This is how you can kind of tell that they're really talking about the temporal elite's god because he says it is I who am god there is none apart from me

24:30 And the words in it say, when he said this he sinned against the entirety. So the entirety is that He created...He sinned against the entire universe by saying that and a voice came from above him and it said you are mistaken Samael. And Samael was the blind God like if you...it comes from the Hebrew word for blinds. And that is the Demiurge in say maybe 1 third to 40% of Gnostic cases So that's kind of, I like that as a metaphor. It describes reality quite well it may or may not be true but it provides a framework in particular once after that Samuel creates the archons in mimicry of this sort of true god creating eons and reminations. Archon is a Greek word actually just means like

25:21 Boss it was actually a political office. So it's someone who's in charge It doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't have to mean it doesn't have to be negative In fact, you find Gnostic gemstones that have st Michael described as an archon We're not saint by then but its Michael the Archangel Described as an archon because that word means someone who is powerful and a boss and in charge. So the idea that they are Interdimensional lizards beaming to us slingshotting by the moon from satin because they're jealous of our creative capacities. not well corroborated. Right, that's fair to say But that's where I took the term from because there is almost an ambivalence to the power they're not...I don't think Well basically if they try to depopulate the planet They are doing a really bad job of it So this idea that some kind of bloodthirsty monster eating us Is again not well corroborated Nevertheless I think their agenda is not aligned with the best interest of the planet

26:20 Yeah, well said. I would say definitely not now let me ask you do you think the planets elite are using magic because like You said everyone's trying to figure this out and the Brotherhood of Saturn does come up a lot And your first point about being anti-semitic? Of course i'm not! I have no inner desire to find any particular group responsible I just want to find out who is responsible whoever that is but to the second point about understanding magic yeah I really don't understand it that well I don't think very many people do But I found that interesting, so let me ask you what kind of insights your practice and understanding of magic give you into how the elite might be using it or what they might be communicating with up there if anything? That's a really good question. Um...I have a definition of magic that i use for people

27:03 Like listen to the show we're interested in this kind of stuff that isn't a crowley and one about true will and blah blah blah it is magic is an explain my explanation afterwards cuz its side of so the sounds of a do she start with. Magic is a culture specific, response to naturally occurring consciousness effects like telepathy and precognition and all these things that as humans with a normal functioning mind we experience. Now, to break that down if you look from Australian Aboriginal tribes to chaos magicians in 2015 London the quote-unquote powers or the quote-unquote effects that you can achieve with magic pretty much boil down to the same four or five things

27:50 Telepathy pre-cognition so seeing the future is a good boy and whatever you want to call it visiting the other world, i need some way trafficking with the spirits everything else sort of tumbles out of that in indiana we can find those four characteristics among shamans on amazon and you will find them amongst palos in california. So magic for me is a culture specific way of taking sovereignty over your own consciousness, which is also why I think everyone should try it. It's sort of like the birthright of all mankind. Is there an elite project that involves magic or are the elite involved with magic in some way? The short answer is yes and we based on that definition can layer it. I'm telling you right now Dick Cheney is not fucking Thelamite

28:39 So this kind of idea that they're all secretly worshipping Moloch, or they're trying to bring about some sort of Thalemic empire. The Patriot Act is the opposite of Thalema. It's like it's the actual opposite if they're Thalamites, they are terrible at it! Again, the trouble...the thing is magicians don't understand power politics and I think it's very important because it's how power acts in the world And we should be interested in that historically, we have been and people involved in power politics don't have much exposure to magic either. So there is this kind of necessity for looking over the fence. Why I think let me give you several examples at a base level, you can definitively prove that they're using magic because you have a sort of 60 year manipulation of media and the media it's the same thing as the Flavians did in the well Judean provinces

29:32 Using media to change people's consciousness in a way. That suits their own agenda and we have that we have mockingbird we had literally anything you can see on television so is that magic i would say yes it is Is it magic in the fucking cool? We've got a pentagram somewhere and we're summoning Azrael kind of thing. No, it's not but there is quite a decent amount of evidence that pieces of that and hundreds and hundreds of pieces of that have been incorporated into The Shadow State that then became The Private State And I have a blog post called billionaires and astrology, and it's about elite belief systems. And it's sort of because the old saying is millionaires don't believe in astrology billionaires do? And it's sort of looking at the behavior of...and I just took The Rockefellers because they're the sort of more prominent or most prominent elite family that we have access to but it's also one has in Lawrence Rockefeller case

30:30 Has had a bunch of really weird interests so in the late nineties. He spent he funded colin andrews the famous crop circle researcher for i think it was almost two years, he put money into esalen as a rockefeller project you probably find some of sitchins research So this is one of the richest and most powerful men on earth, and I'm just talking from the 70s to 2000. He's giving money to a guy who thinks that Sumerian gods are aliens who arrived on nuclear-powered rocket ships to mine our gold to save their atmosphere. And then he's looking into crop circles but then you wind back the Rockefeller project so in between the war they're funding eugenics obviously They paid for two floors at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute's eugenics project before the Nazis

31:19 They're obviously involved in Standard Oil and all the kind of i.g. Farben stuff that comes out immediately after the war My fun family planning the Rockefellers put money into the Smithsonian which obviously I think Pulled in a lot of the giant bones and shit that happened in America So we look over 100 less even to 80 years of the 20th century it becomes apparent that We dead now, but they become so parent at Lawrence Rockefeller has a view of the world That does not match yours or mine. Crop circles, genetics, stitching... All these pieces and obviously extreme involvement in the shadow state

32:00 the kind of black projects that came out of world war two so he's got access to visibility over these things and we don't. And by the end of the nineties he's paying someone to look for crop circles so by the time you get to the night and he was in his nineteen, by the time you get to the end of the millennium, he is willing to put his own money into someone looking at crop circles rich people don't tend to do that give away money unless there is something potentially enough for them on the other hand There is unquestionably a belief system at the point of one percent that does not in any way match what we think is going on and falling out of that is potentially maybe no magical practices, maybe just personal beliefs. I think once you get to the use of magic in a shadow state capacity, you sort of jump down 20 runs

32:50 I'm the CIA and collins elite and mk ultra and operation of all these things that we can go into because you sort of have immediately after the war, how much money going into solving some really weird things that happen principally what principle among them of course was the ufo phenomenon whatever that happens to be if i don't know if he read a new friend's book about the collins elite final events. Final events. No, that might be one of the ones I haven't read but i believe he talks about the Collins elite also in a little bit and one of the later ones like For nobody's eyes only yes, and I talked to him about it then yeah It's those two books if anyone's interested in ufology And where the sheriff state ally overlaps with magic those two books are quite important because With the Collins elite you see

33:42 information that in that kind of Roswell Wright Patterson world, the FBI had an awareness of Jack Parsons and Alistair Crowley and their involvement. And they weren't quite sure if Parson's experiments didn't have anything to do with Roswell. And they knew that there was some kind of magic UFO connection so these flyboys which I find hilarious, this sort of Protestant fly boys ended up with a very Jacques Vallée View of what these phenomena are long before jacqueline actually he was sort of involved about twelve years later So we already seen that with the ufology thing immediately after war you have the nuts and bolts

34:21 explanation which I would say is 100% Cold War propaganda, but then underneath it you have a whole bunch of groups who start doing things like the CIA was paying for astrologers. The CIA was publishing articles on how to use the Ouija board to debrief dead assets and dead agents so in this kind of 50- pretty much the church inquiry, there is money going everywhere to this combination of spooks and magic and ufology or phenomenology which is a word I obviously prefer for it. A couple conclusions we can draw from that is that no one had

35:01 A full picture so there wasn't like a look we got to spacecraft let's put it underground and reverse engineer now i have the secret thing in no one else knows about that is not a linear process what you're seeing there is people with unlimited money, finding out pieces of a puzzle and attempting obviously to weaponize them and see where they call. And that's obviously the other half of MKUltra was, if you can do mind control is mind control related to this phenomenology because obviously Crowley summoned Lam and all like the stuff that was going on. doesn't it all match your nuts and bolts view of the world? And so yes, I do think quite frankly. Does drugging entire populations count as magic to all these... you know i think they do and I think someone somewhere before whatever was a million documents were shredded about the MKUltra project so that they could go to the church committee and say it never worked then why did you shred the fucking document because by then you have

36:00 the stargate project which had money from uh bernie von braun himself so an ss major who founded nasa put money into the like early muscle tag experiments. So there are pieces that we will never be able to connect in a satisfactory way because too much time has passed and too much is redacted but you see these constellation of pieces that if you kind of look at it from the corner of your eye, you can discern that there is unquestionably a belief system at the top and a practical application of a magical belief system running through the machinations of the shadow state.

36:40 I've never really heard those projects connected and thinking about the underlying belief structure beneath them, that is interesting. It makes sense! I did want to jump back to your definition of magic being a cultural overlay to phenomenon that would normally occur in well functioning mind and ask you since telepathy and precognition in these things don't seem to occur all that often to the majority, does that imply that part of The Elite's agenda is to keep the minds at large from experiencing these things? I would split that into two questions and say yes to both of them. I mean 93% of people last year, I think it was in a Sheldrake book will say oh yes i've experienced telepathy like

37:25 My phone's gonna ring and it's gonna be great and then there goes my phone and its greg those kind of consciousness effects don't exist in a world where we're robots. And so everyone experiences them just as we experience individuality and consciousness and things that hilariously people will get on stage with their individual consciousness and say doesn't exist. So part of it is when I say it's birthright of all mankind, and it's naturally occurring. Seriously, it's kind of like writing or sex or something. Everyone can do it. Some people are better at it, and you get better at it with practice but magic is you becoming aware that

38:05 I think whatever description what the universe runs on a consciousness of spirit model and then what you do with that which steps to take it so okay i'm gonna do some sigil magic i'm gonna learn the tarot or in, i'm going to do whatever because i'm taking control of the parts of my participation but i can take control. I think things like SSRIs, whether intentionally or not. Certainly different foodstuffs and again whether it's intentionally or not electromagnetic radiation all the kind of pollutions that we experience in the modern world absolutely disrupt a kind of coherent and wider experience of consciousness If you've ever been out in the desert under the stars at night No light pollution nothing else around

38:53 the entire experience of reality is different. And then you come back to the city or you come back to wherever and it's almost like that memory of that experience, or that contact fades and you go well what was there? I was stoned but i wasn't THAT stoned! So whether by design or not—and this is where Gnosticism kind of works as a metaphor—the material world is a trap for our consciousness become aware of that and becoming wherever it is sort of 80% of the step to taking as much control over its situation as we can.

39:29 I do like that. I think a lot of people who are talking about narcissism, whether it's David Icke or even Graham Hancock now talks about it a lot they do talk about in that literal sense and maybe it should just be thought of as more metaphorically because so much manipulation went on back then you can't really take anything from that era and be like okay this is the gospel truth this is now my worldview in 2015 yeah absolutely I wouldn't take it as gospel truth here's the thing how Good doesn't matter for have to get I bring reality before we decided isn't a metaphor and it's true so. No system is either a metaphor for reality or describes reality or disreality either way you're kind of next steps are the same treated as a metaphor and become aware of your design spark can do something with it in and be aware that

40:22 There is no physical realm utopia there are not much as in the world can you imagine. Like you think your gonna get your march on washington and say we want to choose about nine eleven and then presents coming from now see you got a snake that doesn't they will wait like grandma since the empire never ended, You kind of have an inter control mechanism period and we're about coming up to one of them Yeah elections, but there's a control mechanism the The battle for freedom isn't won on a macro level It's won on millions and millions and millions of individual levels. And so that's effectively Gnosticism So is it a metaphor or is it actually describing reality? Yeah, I agree point it guess it really doesn't matter We're kind of splitting hairs

41:08 Well, that's the chaos magic approach is that hyper pragmatic. Is this going to work or not? And it sort of external truth claims are less relevant than whether it works. I do like that approach. It sometimes hard for me to talk about. It's not a super natural type of thought process for me but I guess that's why I find it exciting Being someone who practices magic, I have to ask you about Aleister Crowley. We did talk about him a little bit off the air and as you know, I've got guests who in the past have condemned him and say that the elite are trying to usher in The Age of Horus using all these tools of Crowley to descend society into hedonistic mess And then others say that the negative stuff is just propaganda from Christians and people who want to be afraid of magic...and I can see both being true but I really don't know what do you think?

41:59 think of Crowley? I'm a big fan, frankly. I'm not a Thelemite say...I mean, I listened to your interview with David and we have people in common and I know a bunch of people in the OTO it's when you ask someone from the OTO rather than say a rogue Thelemite about Crowley you get a very high church answer obviously and I'm not a Thelemite at all. I view Crowley in a wider continuum almost like David Icke. Crowley was probably I'm struggling to think of another example except a guy when i still think that was probably the best magician west produced in the last several centuries.

42:35 He was a fascinating complex man is the part time spook or like occasionally spooky he climbed mountains he had all these mystical experiences needed the same thing we all trying to do which is integrate those experiences for realizations as result of different encounters into a cohesive world. So as for the elites trying to usher in Aeon of Horus, one no. And two if the Book of The Law describes reality they couldn't anyway. An aeon moves regardless of what petty humans want to do So they can't usher it in. It's actually quite a good description of the 20th century, given that it was received in 1906 if you look at the third chapter or book of The Book Of The Law. The war and the fire god stuff and whatever—it doesn't suck as far as descriptions of the 20th century go

43:29 So if there is an Ian O'Hara, we're in it. But I love him! He's a hobby? It's almost like... Tell you what it is, it's like Shakespeare because it's long time ago and he was brilliant writer and enigmatic man And you kind of pick new stuff up each time because he's working on levels that you don't know Then you get piece of his life when you plug it into what he was writing and then all comes together There's a lot to it Yeah, I mean i have to ask people who are into magic about Crawley. There's just so many different opinions and... ...I like to gather them all and then kind of see in the ether what kind of forms? And I guess he doesn't seem like a terrible guy it seems like uh misunderstood He just seems like a lot of the weirder aspects of his exploration of magic don't necessarily seem evil or negative they just seem kinda neutral and strange

44:25 Yeah there was certainly that i mean he was he was an absolute product of his time and everyone makes a load about the fact that is mother called in the beast you're the beasts growing up we actually need to see someone who. When did college study classics fell in love with a male cross dressing performer poetry for them road across china climbed mountains As I said, was a spy. Took a girl band to Russia There's a lot of stuff about him that makes him highly unique. I mean, you're sort of talking about David Bowie but there is something where normal people don't behave that way and that's what makes an amazing artist and probably an amazing magician yeah? And as a result I find it maternally fascinating and I won't...I will hear bad words about him but I wont hear definitive bad word in the sense that oh well he was

45:19 He's not worth your time. That is absolutely not the case." Yeah, the man lived and he was definitely an adventurer and wasn't all that concerned about the judgments I wanted to talk about one of the pieces that you wrote called The Seance That Changed America It's kind on the subject of the elite and magic and kinda dabbling a little bit And it fits in nicely with this wheelhouse of elites and spirits Can you tell people a little bit about what happened there? That was a seance that happened in New England Farmhouse on New Year's Eve and gathered at it was a fascinating man, Andrija Puharic. His sort of

45:59 Indian channel or the guy who would be conducting this and basically science of america's richest families you had a. I'm gonna forbes there you had bell after bill labs you had pain you had vanderbilt it basically have like the blue blood is close but anyway which was the blue blood of american time sitting around having a seance and they contacted being nine of them in the contact to single being initially that referred to itself as the nine and it was the me out of the nine egyptian gods in a kind of invisible spaceship. Open the app and this is quite transformative so with people at this event then went on to do things in space program in hollywood's an elite funding level for different projects have any time you talking about

46:53 What would that be? 30 percent of the available capital in the Northeast at the time sitting in that room or least had access to it. Yeah, and this one of the things one of the threads you can follow is when I got to California in the 60s. Gene Roddenberry for instance, one of his first jobs when he got to California was to write a script for this cult and there was based on the nine And the nine have showed up in a whole bunch of different channeled cults, some of which may be MKUltra plots. Most of which probably aren't and he was actually fired from that because the script was too realistic but what you have in the case of Andrea Puharich and Arthur Belle You have an overlap there with MKUltra and experiments in mushrooms and how they can be weaponized or used for truth serum Because Andrea Puharich... Oh! Also you have an overlap with the Stargate problem program

47:46 which included people who were then being unofficially and being paid to remote view bases on the backside of the moon. So you have again this constellation overlap problem where making direct connections will probably leave too much data on the table, and then the better step is looking at hang-on so Andrea Paharich is working out I'm for me to the same time as well to don't go was there with stuff that you got from russell this is all true or not roswell right patterson air force base we went to bell labs. I am then he and are the bell when gallivanting around mexico looking for mushrooms on the cia dime i need your regala to america, i mean it goes up a cmosats by any other country but how does probably his handler so you have all these pieces where again coming back tonight

48:39 Is there a system of magic in the shadow state? The short answer is yes. And this is, this is a very interesting through line where you start to think well where are these findings and experiences going and what do they look like once they cohere because I'll tell you something about the quote unquote UFO problem or challenge or what have you or conceptualizing it as something Richard Dolan mentioned a few times He had one of his sources who was an aide to Jimmy Carter tell a story. And it was the story that he walked into the Oval Office immediately after Carter had the quote unquote, The Briefing and he was slumped and crying now by the late 70's when you have

49:28 You had roswell whatever that was and you had the nine mk ultra and lsd experiments in channeling and. Whatever kind of a brookings report being aware that this stuff from other planets and all these pieces what do they look like if you're the person, That has to go here that into a world you and it kind of comes back to the rocket if the president is happened in the present slumped over in my tears. The picture isn't very good these are no space brothers they're not here to bring us into send this into new level of,

50:04 Carbon-free peace loving civilization. They might be eating us, like the story is not going to be great and I actually think that's probably closer to whether or not that describes reality. I actually think if there is a definitive like here is our official shadow state policy on the UFO situation...I don't think it's very good. I think it'll have some kind of ancient aliens components of we were built for something We don't know what remains of things all over the solar system. I don't know what happened to them, but it wasn't good The things we've encountered have been ambivalent They're not little green men there in a dimension that's half a micron from your face like I don't think this story is I Think Catherine Austin Fitz says this which is like when we talk about disclosure We don't actually know and as she uses the example that the

50:59 The situation is grave enough that the CIA to get funding. The CIA thought the situation was grave enough that selling crack to American children, to raise money was the better option. Right? And that's true because they did and you sort of go holy shit so we don't know what it is in this mostly private now but like I say shadow state but you call it what you want We don't know what the challenges that they're trying to sell because it's very expensive and weird. And I think that rather than its brotherhood of Saturn, we're coming into this new thalemic eon of Horus. I think all of that is wrong or it's operating with a map that's missing most of the countries because it's weird at the top. You only need to look at those sort of odd Rockefeller behaviors and go what are you piecing together

51:56 And why is it so destructive that it costs this much? Right, yeah. Well said man! I'm with you on a lot of that stuff. I love the whole study of those alphabet agencies, the paramilitary realm all the experiments they were doing some of the really far out things that they've tried and learned about from Nick Redfern I guess, I'm totally with you that there's a lot of magic going on on that level. But when you consider the power pyramid, that rung is relatively low So do you not think that, do not take this that far as to say that the shadow government at the very top of the pyramid is actually like taking orders from something non-human? You know, that's more of a David Icke type of idea. But whether it be Archons or some guests I've had have said Anunnaki or Reptilians or whatever... Do you think it's not quite so, It's not quite that simple at the top

52:52 As a magician, my cosmology means I can't rule that out. I can rule out reptilians but the short answer is even at low levels if anyone who's listening thinks maybe this magic thing will crack like it breaks your life it does there by design you will encounter things and it certainly happened to me where you encounter people that are ridden by something So whether they're consciously written at the top or not is sort of irrelevant. Like if there are these hostile beings who either, and let's do this like biology. What would these beings want? I would suggest they feed on fear and our negative consciousness reaction to things so fear and yelling and hate and what have you. Then the goal would be to ride humans

53:51 that can trigger as much of that as possible. And so you're talking, I mean, you're talking at a sort of mid pyramid level of a Cheney and so I don't rule it out the thing about what I find fascinating looking at power politics and I came at it from a magic perspective I kind of had a come to Jesus moment with parapolitics when i came to London. No, I'm born and raised Australian but then did six years in New Zealand and no one in New Zealand is a conspiracy theorist and I'll tell you why! New Zealand regularly comes equal second or first with some Nordic country or another for the least corrupt country on earth every year it's at the end of the earth and it's a farm nothing happens there and if it did its localized

54:35 So you have a city view of the universe that people are fundamentally like you and good conspiracies in nineteen eighty regional st also very localize some real estate agent, driving someone to become a local politician it's nothing is no way she is ready kind of has an area fifty one but it was nothing like that. When I got to London, the disparity between the newspapers and the actual real world was like nothing I'd ever seen before. And I had seen quite a bit of the real world! Like I'm not just talking about their inability to cover this stories in Britain and I'm like hang on...and it was encountering power that

55:12 That made me realize that i don't even use the c word my c word is conspiracy my c red and other c word conspiracy is how it just what the weather with business to business works. I'm going to play this so that was my way of coming back to you how do these things are connected if u follow say, the pharma industry demonic can there be some serious concerns to deal with will we see a bowl of your planet threading you get Engine viruses and vaccines and all this kind of really. You jenny stop again rockefeller funded that happened to the twenty century put these you could miss peace next to shadow state piece finance piece next to military industrial peace, i'm going back next to the media so you should have a set of five icons if he will end the effects of each one into lock so

56:02 Completely that the drugs you take will be prescription medication your given combined with reality tv watch. I'm combined with the diet that you're on all of the food you can afford because this company like the petrochemical fallout from fracking which is needed because we are in an oil war and always like to pieces connect in such a way that you keep coming back to narcissism as this is a prison for the soul now I'm not convinced that i'm saying it can't happen but not convinced that those pieces connects in the physical room because there are wealthy families in eurasia and china they're not gonna do what the house of sound. Add the bushes and whatever and the russ childs frankly want

56:49 And so I don't think you have at the top, top people sitting around again. What should we do for 2015? War with Russia and then this and that you know i don't i don't think that's it i think We can see a western gender in play which is maybe 80% of what's going on but they don't nevertheless i keep coming back to well The net effect on you Greg or me all these say five pillars Is if they do interlock It's not like oh well I'll stop taking this medication and everything will be fine. Well, it kind of doesn't the system kind of it's still going to compensate for the fact you well i'll get off my ssr eyes that is a great move but then something else happens what the hell and so that's where i kind of wonder if i don't think at the top there is a space squid in another dimension running things i do think again a magical cosmology allows for there to be

57:43 Non-physical agencies acting in the physical world at a lower level and high level for the hell of it because they want something. Yeah, and some of them are good I mean that's very Gandalf thing so many good summer there aren't inevitably their ambivalent i described him as like sharks you go punch a shark in the face is gonna bite you otherwise then mostly define and yeah but i do i would never rule out that at the top there are people who are either in direct communion with these things consciously or not. But yeah, I don't think it's quite as reptilian. Right on! That was really well said and i'm with you. I do think those interlocking pieces the way they connect so well makes it really appealing to latch onto that idea

58:34 But it is, it might be kind of simple. It also might be right I mean here's the thing they interconnect and so you either use Gnosticism as your worldview which means well course it does that's how reality is constructed Or you do a kind of full conspiracy. Well, of course it does because at the top there are reptilians but in the physical and I feel like i'm really ragging on David Icke! I must underline that's actually not the case and that's again... The utility of Gnosticism if used correctly is You can kind of hold it up to your experience of reality and go am I going to use this as a metaphor Or is this actually what's happening? And I don't have, well that's not true. Some days I have an answer for that.

59:18 Some days they don't to change it. That's the chaos nature of it Yeah, man I think you're right and it is sort of arbitrary to speculate about these things It's a lot of fun for me But it's not a lot of practical information like he said and kind of a side note on this in your reddit ask-me-anything I'm a huge reddit fan And I liked that you did that A part of it that I really liked its in line with this as someone had asked you something to the effect Of if Yahweh was protecting Israel today and your response was something like trying to detail the current state of things is like shuffling furniture on the Titanic, which is already a great response. But then you followed it up with well if Yahweh is a massive nuclear arsenal and an undeclared biological weapons program then yes! And as witty as that is I also think it's pretty profound because what are these things? Are they literal or metaphors? What IS Yahweh? It's probably not hovering over Israel waiting for battle like the final boss of some RPG or The Eye Of Sauron

1:00:13 but it did get me thinking about how the spiritual realm can influence the physical reality. Maybe that influence is manifested in the monetary systems of the world, maybe it's manifested and Israel's powerful weaponry. It is tough to say, but I thought that was a pretty articulate and witty and deep response. Well, that's very nice. Thank you. Um, I did actually meet him on two levels at which he picked up on, um, which has no idea cause you could tell the question was otherwise going to go down some I get called an anti-Semite all the time. I'm part freaking Jewish, so at least I may be anti-Semitic, but you could tell it like oh apparently that question was maybe going to go in an uncomfortable area or an area they want to spend their time throwing up on because it's not correct. Because if you think of Yahweh from memory is Lord of hosts that's what the word means but if you listen to the sound Yahweh

1:01:10 And if you think of the Gnostic god, Iao, you have that same sound. So obviously pretty much all Judaic cosmology is a tumble down of Babylonian and Sumerian cosmology because it's the same area, and it's overlaid. So you have Ea as one of the supreme Sumerian gods so you have Ea, Yahweh, Yao which I always found very interesting when my grandmother was alive because she was Catholic as well and she'd trundle off to church Say hi to the Sumerian star god from me. So yeah, Yahweh... The thing that is very disappointing about... Not very disappointing! The hijack that happened to the Jews took maybe a thousand years to get over

1:02:00 And that was conflating a really rich and fecund mythological system with all these different angels and spirits. God not only had a female side, he had a female consort there are other light beings and all this kind of wonder away from the temple Judaism was a direct inheritor of some of these fascinating concepts that we got from Samaria and Babylon And then you had the same thing that happened with Catholicism and a sort of Flavian hijack. It gets squashed into something, it comes out at the end. Temple Judaism they barely have an afterlife! You go and read Jewish folklore and not only do they have an afterlife but they're going on spaceships in other dimensions...

1:02:46 let's say the 11 to 1200s, you get Moses of Leon writing the Kabbalah and that fecund creative way of using this particular worldview to experience the world started to come back in that subsequently influenced magical systems around the world. As to these sort of existential quality of what these beings are When you get to the top, I don't know. You would have seen the Archaeology of Dragons presentations. The bigger they are it's very easy to dig them up so you can trace Jesus through about four or five different gods back and you can archaeologically do that with Yahweh, you can do that with Isis, loads of them whatever you want At a smaller level I start to get very Valaian not just as a magician but

1:03:35 This is a broad world view of a consciousness space universe allows for there to be being so they're either extra dimensional or non physical and composed of consciousness. So encounters with berries and spirits and angels that kind of, or UFOs, or whatever. Because it's a continuum of this sort of similar phenomenon that we see described throughout history since we were ever writing history I don't ever think these things are either completely non-existent or entirely in our heads and certainly at a midrange level they're not And i think maybe the top level these are concepts that have built for

1:04:18 I have a control or hopefully no hope for your own kind of the process experience in the device you can buy great things like that yeah sounds is obviously very old and sacred. sound for people who are either in any of those tumble-down traditions, Judaism or Christianity. Whatever you want! So there's a sound that you think well can I use that as a mantra? What happens if i sit down and either alter my state of consciousness with meditation or other things and just vibrate that sound for 20 minutes...or an hour what happens?! Because that's the sound of a like, that God sound has lasted. Let me do the maths on that then.

1:05:00 5,500 years so far? I find that interesting. There's a kind of archaeological component to magic that I'm like okay the further back I can find things it's that... do you know what the Lindy paradox is? Lindy Paradox no not familiar It's technological term means however long something has been around for so far is how long its going to be around for in the future been around for 4,000 years. It's going to be around for another 4000 years the car has only been around 80 it's only gonna be around for another 80 mobile phones iPads what have you kind of conflate technology based on its utility which I think is quite a bit too that it's anyway that's interesting yeah and you will struggle to find things that don't fit into it because we will obviously have bicycles long after we have cars because cars are about to become

1:05:52 maybe not in our lifetime but they get to become little robot google pods that we get it and then i want you to be back in the car actually these things do exactly what i was doing bicycles probably good. Yes so i can apply that i think too magical spiritual practices with some interesting results you don't have to i dont have a secret religion am i trying to sell one But I kind of look at it and go, well meditation mantras these sounds these things have been around for as far back as we can see. Man this has really been an amazing time! I really enjoyed it. I know I tend to corral interviews a certain way but I actually wanted open the floor you just a bit and ask you among all the weird things in the world and wild stuff that we've talked about is there any aspect of these things that you want emphasize or maybe I might have missed anything that you'd like to tell people that I didn't prompt you for?

1:06:43 I would say, again referring to my C word. The most important thing is that in this deluge of parapolitical researchers we need to get better at distinguishing the data from the interpretation So the Yahweh-Saturn thing is an example. To get to the Brotherhood of Saturn from the astrological aspects of Yahweh is bad, but data are there and you'll find the same thing with the elite symbols used in either corporate media or like this isn't they're not portals to Satan and Jay Z

1:07:23 a devotee of Adam Weisshaupt, you know. And I think we just need to get better and this goes for magic as well to separate the experience which is real or the data point from the interpretation. I know we glob onto views of the world 9-11 Roswell UFOs magic we go up onto the way of understanding it that we like the best. And I just think, and it's fine to have it everyone has a resting belief system but we need to hold on to that lighter with like a lighter touch so that we can incorporate more data points because eventually we start to have a bigger world view as a result. Well said man! I think you're right. It's just such a natural instinct to get an odd data point and want to kind of construct

1:08:09 story arc around it that becomes the end all be all. And I mean, that's largely what we do with a lot of these shows now will take an interesting aspect and have a guest who extrapolates a large story and then we kind of close the book on that one and start up another one. Great. That's why I'm a subscriber because when you listen to it every week or whenever they come out It's really interesting for me to hear vigorous interpretations of either the same or slightly different data points that I may or may not agree with. I chase after interpretations that are in disagreement with my own because i really do want to see if I can't corrode them, like my own you don't want them to ossify and the best way to do that is to listen to this

1:08:50 sort of range as long as you get better at pulling out the data. Well, good point man and I know we've talked about some other shows going certain directions and honing in on one particular area that may or may not be part of the reality And you know i'm gonna continue to try to stay relatively neutral but also explore the most extreme ideas that people have out there uh...I really appreciate you being a guest I think this has been a lot of fun Do you want to remind the people before we go where they can find your blog and maybe where they can catch that awesome presentation you gave on the arcanology of dragons, and maybe anything else you deem important? Yeah sure. For all that and more... pretty much all that frankly is runesoup.com

1:09:39 I'm also, not on Facebook please. The account is there and I don't use it. Find me on Twitter. I love Twitter Gordon G-O-R-D-O-N underscore white W-H-I-T-E and really anywhere there you can email me the details are in the blog. I am really bad at getting back to people quickly but no this has been fun thank you so much Greg it's a really good questions and really interesting discussion for me. Right On! Well, it's slippery stuff for me but I do what i can and thanks a lot Gordon. I really enjoyed this one! I'm definitely going to keep up with your writing so keep doing what you do out there and take care of yourself alright man? Thanks!

1:10:14 Wow guys, there we have it. I love that show! I feel like i have a better understanding of not only the climate around the time of the Gnostics but also the layers that's buried beneath. I like talking to someone with a good magical context for some other weird things that we've seen in the power pyramid That's a unique perspective and in The Plus Show We really kind of switched gears focused on Gordon's personal journey into Chaos Magic Some of the results he sees and some introductory magical practices that might be the droids we're looking for in terms of validating some of these things for ourselves. Mainly focusing on the use of ancestor altars and sigil magic, and how sigils and symbols relate to parapolitics and corporate logos as well as how Western magic is evolving

1:10:58 I would say it's a great show all around. I hope that those who don't subscribe yet will be intrigued enough to pull the trigger This is also the fourth show of the month which means next episode we'll be giving away some money in The Money Bomb for people who donate Highest one in awhile, I think were at 370 with a few days left to go I will pick a winner out of the donors on let's say Monday 26th And we should have another show the day after that. Thanks for listening people, any of these smokers out there I still have some of those grinders over at conspirates.net They are super high quality Probably the best piece of merch so to speak That i've been able to put out so far and before we go I wanted to riff off something Gordon said about separating The data from the interpretation That is so important and a person can't help but put their lens on something It's just the way the world works

1:11:47 We are the individual conscious observers of this 3D manifestation and we all have a different vantage point, that's fine. It's actually great! And my position here is I try to remain semi-neutral as a host... ...I feel like my job is to help a guest share the view from their lens with you guys in an understandable way. Sometimes that means playing devil's advocate for them to strengthen their arguments, sometimes it means backing up and letting someone get there mostly on their own but I think that we're always trying to get some truth out of it and uncover some knowledge but were always looking through a lens Some seem cloudier than others. Sometimes it's like we're looking in a warped funhouse mirror, but I think there is value in every single one even if the guest or topic seems way out there, way too far fetched There's value in finding your own line Reeling back your own barometer In a way that you can't do unless its been challenged You don't know sane unless you know crazy You don't know happiness unless you know sadness

1:12:43 And if you really think a guest I have on is a type of disinfo agent perhaps, which apparently plagues this realm. I'd say there's value in analyzing their message looking at the psychology of spooks perhaps and even in the case of some type of disinformation agent they are mixing truth with fiction so you're still getting some truth Just something I thought i'd remind people of as we explore these fringe topics. And I hear so much mixed feedback between, this was awesome and just what I needed to hear to this was totally worthless and a waste of my time... ...and that's a range that'll probably always exist but I figured I'd reiterate that anyway

1:13:21 That said, do check out runesoup.com and the Arcanology series of Gordon's and some of his writing on Chaos Magic. Definitely awesome! And leave a question or thought in the comments on this episode especially The Plus People because that is an inner circle that this week's guest is actually in and I'm sure you would enjoy reading your thoughts as would I. That has been my offering on the altar thanks for listening and I'll see ya soon Your move deceased members of the Carlwood clan your frickin move I put a spell on you because your mind stopped the things you do I can't stay home Put a spell on you Stopped the things you do Without I'll put a spell on you Cause your mind, oh your mind