Carey Gillam | The Monsanto Papers, Glyphosate Damage, & Corrupted Science

00:00 Welcome to another free first hour episode of the Hireside Chats. I know we want to get into the action, but i have to ask that you help me armor us up a bit for the bumpy road ahead because I bring in the first hour of this show without unrelated ad nonsense as proof-of-concept and if you value it then come over to THC Plus for $8 a month and hear full two hours interviews as they were designed to be and as you would enjoy them most Go to thehiresideschats.com or just click the link in the show notes to get started and within a minute you'll be plugging in your new Plus Show RSS feed into a hopefully decentralized podcasting 2.0 supported app. Feed the things you want to grow and starve the things that gotta go, and we will reach the promised land! Think about that...and enjoy the show

00:54 In the 1930s, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed the nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the Fireside Chats. His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times. From 1930 and I deal with a different kind of fire For a new era of worldly frustration we offer a- I'm Greg Carlwood These are The Hireside Chats Here we go, Hireside Chatters from sunny San Diego. I'm Greg Carlwood and with all the problems we have these days wouldn't it have been nice if at some point we had at least tried to restore some faith in our corporate rated institutions? Because when our politicians and media companies are reduced to PR mouthpieces for industry giants the inmates truly are running the asylum

01:44 Regulators today do more to protect the profits of the big multinational corporations than they do to truly investigate on behalf of people. And rarely do you find any major news source saying anything to conflict with those profits either It creates a world where you really can't trust anything, from weed killer and water quality to cigarettes cell phones and pharmaceuticals. Many of us have a feeling that there might be more risks and consequences to these things than we realize but who's doing the real investigating? Who is asking the critical questions Well, they can feel few and far between but when it comes to Monsanto Roundup and Glyphosate today we have one of the premier critical question askers and dedicated investigative journalist Carrie Gillum. Carrie has spent 30 years covering corporate America with the last 20 years focused on food agriculture and pesticides she's written two great books on this subject entitled Whitewash The Story Of A Weed Killer Cancer And The Corruption Of Science

02:43 And most recently, the Monsanto papers, Deadly Secrets, Corporate Corruption and One Man's Search for Justice. She spent 17 years with Reuters and is now Research Director for U.S. Right to Know, an investigative non-profit focused on public health issues, and it is a pleasure to have her with us! The weed killer critic from Kansas, the big agriculture agitator and investigative journalist extraordinaire Carrie Gillum. Welcome to The Higher Side! My gosh well thank you for that introduction and thanks for having me Of course it is a true pleasure to have you here thanks for doing it Whitewash has been on my shelf for a couple of years now And when I saw the Monsanto papers coming out I thought it would be a great opportunity

03:27 Because you really are dedicated to this space and super knowledgeable about our corporate pesticide-dependent food system. And few people really dive into one thing like this for as long as you have, what kicked this all off and kept you engaged with it as long as you have been? Well, yeah. Thank you that's a question A lot of people ask me I guess it was not by design. I was working at Atlanta covering big bank holding companies and Reuters the international news outlet where I spent most of my career asked me to move to Kansas and start covering food and farming and these really interesting novel crops that Monsanto had just rolled out genetically engineered crops or GMOs

04:11 And this was in the late 1990s, and I thought it was a really terrible idea. I didn't really want to trade my blue business suits and high heels and nice lunches with powerful business people for boots and jeans and hanging out in farm fields but made the move anyway and really dug in so-to-speak. This has become my work and also my passion for more than 20 years now. And I've heard you talk about that initial assignment before, and it's interesting to hear how big companies like Monsanto handle journalists. It seems like they love to roll out the PR machine first give you a nice tour of the facility all very surface level but if a journalist actually does stray from their talking points then they get very vicious very fast right?

05:05 Yeah, I mean so this is what happens when you are a journalist and particularly if you work for a very big news outlet in the an influential news outlet, the companies that you're covering and writing about or organizations or institutions, you know, or the White House. I mean want to woo you they want to teach you so to speak the way to cover them and they really want to direct the narrative And you know that's to be expected right? So yes Monsanto and other companies that were working in the agrochemical space very big seed and chemical companies invited me in. And I've spent a lot of time at Dow and DuPont, Monsanto's headquarters in St Louis with their top executives. And they really did spend a lot of time trying to teach me the ropes. And I really appreciated that because I didn't have a very

05:57 I had really no background whatsoever in covering crops and chemicals and agriculture in the environment. So there was quite a learning curve, and it's important to understand the corporate perspective obviously but as a good journalist you need to understand the bigger picture. And so I also made it my priority to spend a lot of time with farmers and with scientists, and with people involved in grain handling and distribution. And people involved in environmental work you know, to understand how the crops and chemicals were impacting water quality and air and soil health and biodiversity. So we really are trying to understand this from all facets and all perspectives. And you're right

06:45 as I learned more and came to understand that everything wasn't just completely, you know rosy and fabulous and wonderful. As the corporations tried to tell us they became quite unhappy with my reporting and the farther i strayed from I guess just parroting their propaganda The more they tried to discredit me harass me harass my editors it you know in the late Gosh, well 2012-13 2014 really intensified and of course this was around the time when there was a big push to get GMO labeling in the United States. And there was a big push uh to look harder at this chemical glyphosate which is part of Monsanto's Roundup herbicide and actually has become or is the most widely used herbicide chemical in the world

07:42 and there was so much science that had come. to bear showing that there was a real harm associated with this widespread use of this chemical. And I had been writing a lot about that and yeah, I came under quite a bit of attack and I'm sure if any of your listeners Google my name they might find some pretty astonishingly awful things written about me. We learned through litigation and discovery that Monsanto had put together several strategies and plans to try to discredit me, including Google search engine optimization and manipulation so that people who would search for my name would get directed to sites that Monsanto controlled. So very interesting journey it's been certainly. Absolutely! That is something that I think can't be overstated that its all about narrative control and they don't

08:39 Actually address a lot of the science that's being presented directly it's more about how can we engage in character assassination and i have heard you mention a previous interview i think, hey detractors for hire website as an example of one of those fake websites that kind of presents you is like i make my money shitting on things so hire me and i'll do what you need done and thats kinda how they. Make the perception look like you're just out to get these poor big corporations. Yeah, I mean again one thing that I've learned or become all too aware of is that there is a and Monsanto certainly didn't invent this strategy This is something that really looks like it originated in the tobacco industry many years ago but has been employed also by pharmaceutical industry oil and gas to a degree

09:35 other large chemical companies, but certainly Monsanto and the agrochemical industry and the way it works. What we found through the document trail if you will is that a company that wants to protect its image or protect its product—and there's certainly a lot of evidence that this product is harmful or dangerous—they can pay these groups —we call them front groups that look like they're independent, they look like they're independent authentic scientific organizations and the company can support them financially and give them directives about who to discredit who to attack who to harass. Who to lobby what things to do and say to benefit the company

10:20 And it all gets carried out sort of surreptitiously so that consumers or your listeners or policymakers see these things written by, for instance a group called American Council on Science and Health. Sounds very important right? And science-y but you'll find if you dig through internal documents and communications that Monsanto and other companies were funding this group in exchange this group then would write things defending Monsanto's products and attacking anyone who raised a red flag or pointed to research showing harm with these chemicals. So yeah, I mean i'm one person there are New York Times reporters who've been attacked by this group scientists lawyers others they write completely false things about people like me and it's frightening that this goes on but

11:18 you know, it's a strategy that must work for them or they wouldn't keep doing it. Right? Right right the old industry playbook passed along from tobacco to oil as you say yes and it's getting more fine-tuned all the time and harder to identify, which is really the scary thing in today's world. And to get into the glyphosate issue itself I think this audience is already pretty aware of the basics but give us a little bit of history on Monsanto if you could what are some of the important things for people to know? Sure, well the first thing to say I suppose is that Monsanto really is no more at least as a standalone company. Monsanto was purchased by Bayer, the German pharmaceutical company in 2018 for 63 billion dollars. Monsanto's CEO and top executives were brilliant in my opinion in getting out while they could

12:16 When the deal closed in June of 2018, the first trial was just getting underway. And this was a trial brought by one of what are tens of thousands of people in the US who claim that their exposure to these glyphosate-based herbicides caused them to develop non-Hodgkin lymphoma and they're saddled with this litigation as agreed now to pay out about $16 billion and that still doesn't settle the litigation. They're just still struggling to try to figure out how to put this behind them, but Monsanto has a long history they came around in the early 1900s and they've been an industrial chemical provider and were involved in providing chemicals for warfare

13:03 and then shifted over to agriculture. And their baby, their top seller was launched in the 1970s and this was glyphosate patented herbicide that became as I said earlier the most widely used weed killing chemical on the planet. People probably best know it is Roundup. Farmers use it on their crops, on GMO crops as well as an array of other things that are not genetically engineered It's also used, has been used by homeowners. You know school grounds cities parks playgrounds it's used in forestry management and utilities on their right-of-ways it really has become pervasive In our world and our government scientists have documented it not only food and water And air samples but in rainfall because it is so ubiquitous now its surface waters as well

14:02 It's really everywhere and it is in, as I've written in my book which people find most alarming. Residues of this weed killer are probably in your breakfast lunch and dinner and certainly in your urine bodily fluids. Right? I think it's something like 90% of human blood and urine samples this has been found in well that number depends on who you ask him what sampling You're looking at but yeah but If you get your urine tested, it's pretty likely that you're going to find this weed killer in there. And baby food too right? I mean the corporate baby food industry... To me it feels a lot like the pet food industry are they using the best products or are they using these big corporate GMO crops

14:50 just like they do in the pet food, in the baby food. It seems like there's been a lot of red flags and baby food in the past few years that I can remember but this would be another one glyphosate seems to be in there or other pesticides even at levels that are kind of scary to the experts Very scary. Yeah, I mean this has been something that I became particularly interested in and focused on pesticide residue data and for a very long time our Food and Drug Administration and USDA two agencies that are supposed to check food samples for pesticide residues For 30 years skipped testing for glyphosate just flat-out refused to do it

15:35 The Government Accountability Office hammered them in 2014 and said, again this isn't as widely used weed killer. Why are you not testing for this? I had been asking that question for over 10 years every year when a new report would come out why are you not testing for this? I've been able to get data and I should say the FDA finally did start doing some limited testing looking for glyphosate in food and of course does find it but I'd been able to get internal FDA documents showing the frequency of this and one story that really garnered a lot of attention was an FDA scientist who Was testing baby oatmeal, baby food oatmeal products. And was finding these glyphosate residues at high levels in all of these

16:24 baby cereals. Really alarming! There have also been studies that show this weed killer in formula, you know because a lot of infant formula is made with soy and of course soy is one of the genetically engineered crops that's designed to be sprayed directly with glyphosate so you have residues that are found in this infinite formula it's found in honey even in organic honey and an array of crackers, cereals and other snack foods. But as you said it's only one pesticide commonly found in our foods the most recent FDA report to come out which came out in late 2020 they do this every year but the most recent one documented 212 different pesticides found in food samples Wow wow

17:16 And there is something to be said about pollinators too. I'd just say it's in organic honey, there's a lot of talk about the bees saving the bees... The whole house of cards will fall apart if something happens to the bees but it apparently has a pretty damning effect on bees and monarchs and just that part of our ecosystem right? Yeah, I mean Goliath's state in particular has been found to be damaging to the monarch butterfly population. Monarchs are known to not only an iconic sort of image North American image representing wildlife and beauty

17:54 But they are very important pollinators, and they have been on a marked decline that has been shown to be directly tied to this widespread use of glyphosate. The companies have acknowledged this to a degree and made some noise about trying to do something to mitigate it planting different species of flowers and plants to try to help sustain the monarch population. But that's just one sort of element of pesticide implications that have been harmful for pollinators, you see a marked decline in honeybee populations as well

18:32 that are tied to not only glyphosate in particular, but neonicotinoids which is a class of insecticides that has been shown to be culprit in very marked decline in insect populations specifically honeybees. So, you know this is something that's been noted by the United Nations as well as scientists around the world that we are seeing this very pervasive rise in pesticide use not only in the United States but around the world. And you're seeing sort of the canary and the coal mine or you know the red flag... You're seeing really sharp declines in bird populations

19:12 You're seeing sharp declines in insect populations and you're seeing a whole array of health problems in humans that are tied directly to pesticides. So if we care about human environmental health, we really need to care about pesticide use Indeed we do and i'm originally from jefferson county missouri which is not that far from creve core and. When i grew up by heard a lot of worship for monsanto in the local chemical companies have their bases in saint louis and creve court but, I learned from the Monsanto papers that it wasn't always like this. You mentioned that at one time, Monsanto was known as Monsainton and that so many protests were happening at their headquarters in Krivkor that the Krivkor City Council passed an ordinance prohibiting protesters from standing on the median outside of the entrance." And its like wow! Will o'the people right?

20:09 Yeah, I mean certainly that was something I learned in attending different events and meetings. Even farmers, even farmer groups attending conferences sponsored by Monsanto and eating and drinking food funded by Monsanto would sort of whisper to me yeah you know Monsanto's what we call the mon-Satan And that was largely because Monsanto really garnered a reputation of not only they loved and they wooed their farmer customers, but any farmer that they thought wasn't really falling into line. Farmers who they thought might be using their patented seeds without

20:57 paying the license fee and purchasing them. They would go after these farmers and file lawsuits, and Luncet has always been a very aggressive company in terms of going after anybody that stands in their way And I think that's how they got the name Mond Satan. There are also, of course, activist groups and others around the world who really have seen this company as pushing deadly products and wanting to try to shut them down so yeah it's quite a nickname right? Yes i love that kind of stuff And so your first book is called Whitewash, the story of a weed killer cancer and the corruption of science. And it's that last part that I think is the most important thing to drive home. How did they corrupt the science besides just refusing to do this studies? There's probably a lot more to say about this and I really hope the message gets through to people because I think this is not just an isolated incident. It certainly is not right again

21:58 in almost every aspect of this, Monsanto's conduct and what they've engaged in that we consider wrongful conduct or wrongdoing is seen by other companies pushing other chemicals or other products. Monsanto sort of the poster child if you will for pushing bad products and how to perfect that. In terms of the corruption of science I mean there are so many examples one of them is that they engaged into ghost writing scientific research. And this is papers and research studies that were published, and pushed forward and given to regulatory agencies around the world to say look this chemical is totally safe it doesn't cause cancer doesn't cause reproductive harm you know you can spray it directly on food crops it's not going to be a problem

22:52 best thing out there, safest thing you've got and here's a paper to prove it. An independent paper that we didn't have anything to do with this is what Monsanto would say and yet we've learned through again freedom of information documents that I've obtained EPA archives litigation documents that have come out internal monsanto emails etc The company wrote many of these papers. Their own scientists would be heavily involved in dictating what these papers were going to say, and then they would essentially cover that up or lie about it and present them to the world as independent papers. And the hypocrisy that has been shown through their internal emails is just, to me still just jaw-dropping

23:40 They talk about all of the time and effort that they're going to put into ghostwriting. They use the word ghostwriting, they talk about internal employee annual reviews and you're gonna get bonus points because your ghost wrote this paper... They celebrate the ghost writing of a paper that they say is going to be their defense of glyphosate around the world! And they are all gonna have great celebration. They spent so much time on this independent paper So this is one element of the corruption of science. You know, there are others you see them paying the editors of scientific journals or as one editor that they were paying $400 an hour As a consultant, this is an editor who's supposed to be giving an unbiased look at research that's coming into the journal to be published and sent around the world

24:31 You know this sort of thing there are many many examples of that but then you also see them with regulators With the EPA, you see them manipulating EPA management So you see internally EPA's own scientists saying very early on. I found documents from the very early 80s where scientists were saying, this looks like it causes cancer. This is causing all of these tumors in these experimental mice and this is oncogenic and this could be a problem we need to classify this as such. And you see Monsanto saying no that's not the way this is going to happen. You're not assessing it the way we want you too

25:12 and you see a lot of pushback. And then you see EPA management eventually siding with Monsanto, and stifling the research from its own scientists. That very importantly has gone on as I said from the beginning of the EPA and I've documented that in my books and other work, and so have other people. But just recently, just this summer, summer 2021 we've had four EPA whistleblowers for scientists come out publicly with lawyers backing them with documents and emails and audio recordings exposing EPA management for doing exactly this with a number of companies

25:57 They're accusing them specifically of deleting language that identifies cancer connections to chemicals, deleting language that shows certain products cause developmental toxicity in kids, neurotoxicity and then trying to shut up and reassign scientists who try to stand-up to management. The corruption runs rampant through the EPA. I've seen a bit of it inside USDA, FDA and CDC as well sadly to say in my career again there's so many examples or so many scientists these are not the only four people who have come out of the EPA saying this urban many others and we really need to figure out a way to get this cleaned up in the Biden administration Congress is supposed to be investigating that by the administration has been called to address

26:50 you know, this is a very urgent public health necessity to clean up the EPA. And I'm sure they're going to prioritize it like that but i think this stuff is super fascinating and important. I've heard the term regulatory capture used before when these industries they know exactly who is supposed to be regulating them and they get in there with bribes or just a revolving door of putting people in positions there and then promoting them and giving them kickbacks, all the golden parachute stuff. It's a real mess! And there are still a lot of people who hang on this false sense of security that we have regulatory agencies out there so it must be all fine if it wasn't fine somebody would tell me somebody would take this off the market but its just such a mess now that you really can't trust anything

27:43 It is very difficult. It is very difficult to trust, I think the EPA's credibility has completely eroded you know, just from what I've seen and from the evidence that's been brought forward in the documentation there really is no credibility there. And it is a symptom of long-standing sort of as you laid out revolving door political appointees pressure from lobbyists who pressure lawmakers and Congress and then they pressure certain people within the agency You know, one really good example that your listeners might be familiar with is the insecticide chlorpyrifos which has been shown to be damaging to babies' brains who are exposed to it and their primary exposures through diet. The EPA's own scientists have said there's no amount of this in food and water that is safe for kids to be exposed to not even the most minuscule amount can be considered safe

28:47 It's been banned from the household market, but it is still allowed to be used in agriculture. It is still allowed to be in our food and water. And the primary reason for that was because when it was scheduled to be banned in 2017 Dow Chemical went in and sat down with the White House, and gave a million dollars to the Trump Inaugural Fund. Trump had just been elected... And said we really don't want this ban to go forward! The Trump EPA said okay it won't go forward, and it didn't. So you still have this chemical now here in 2021 being used in agriculture and being found in food water. It should be criminal

29:31 for our children to have their brain development be hampered by this chemical, for the sole reason that it makes a lot of money for a chemical company. Yes, I am so glad you used that example. I had that here in my notes because especially over the past couple of years it seems like some people in this alternative community were captured by this narrative that Donald Trump was a long overdue hero out there fighting off the bad guys and This is just an example That I would present to one of those people and be like well what about this? This is the swamp that should be drained It's full of this chemical

30:11 And it just seems like everybody, no matter what side of the aisle is for sale to the highest bidder. I think that's very true in Washington D.C.. I think Democrats and Republicans equal culpability when it comes to acting in corrupt fashion, acting you know in ways that are not protective of public health You know, the Trump administration. I think fighting the bad guys maybe they had a different idea of who the bad guys are or were you know? They certainly rolled back a lot of environmental protections and bent over backwards in the Trump administration to appease corporate interests over public health. The party line, the narrative was we need to free business from all these onerous and expensive regulations so there's certainly people out there who applauded that

31:02 public health professionals were not among those people to a large degree. Because when you let companies like Dow or Monsanto or others dictate what's going to happen with certain chemicals and the widespread use and allowing them in food, Allowing exposure to young children. It's not a good thing and we see the evidence if you look at cancer rates They're rising in children if you look at neurodevelopmental problems in children ADHD an autism and attention deficit disorder and things like that those have been on the rise clearly reproductive health problems in women lowered testosterone Lord sperm counts infertility all of these things were seen

31:51 increasing and cancer in particular now if you look at cancer data from the National Cancer Institute almost 40% of men and women in the United States are forecast to get cancer in their lifetimes. Forty percent! You know, that seems ludicrous to me I don't think that should be something...and many scientists say this same thing we shouldn't be okay with that but the chemical companies and all tell us that we should be, that it's okay. That we can live with cancer and all of these chemicals that are known to cause cancer are essential tools that we need so the trade-off you'll even see people out there saying that you know The trade off is worth it So I don't agree. I agree with you And on top of just manipulating the science and ghostwriting

32:47 articles and studies that are supposed to look independent, and having the EPA shut down certain studies on their behalf. And all this kind of stuff! On top of all that... It's also so disheartening to know that so many major multinational corporations are. Putting poisons into the environment that it even blurs that like its hard to identify why are forty percent of people gonna get cancer is a glyphosate is it, Lead pipes delivering our water is it stuff in the water is that cell phone radiation it just seems like we have so many things out there that every company can just.

33:31 Avoid being guilty by just looking at other industries and i will look what they're doing i think the problem is probably the cell phones why i think the problems like life is it well you know its almost like will never unravel all this stuff because there's so much manipulation, end pretty much across-the-board with multinational corporations that are household names their putting out products that are harmful at least not helpful. And that's true. I mean, one thing that makes it really difficult to prove or to lay a finger on you know this chemical caused this disease in this individual because we all are exposed to so many different things now in our world. You know PFOS these chemicals that were pushed so much by Dow that are found in, you know firefighting foam and Teflon and the stain resistant products and things like that

34:27 You know, those have been found to be just incredibly dangerous and detrimental to our health. And they are everywhere! So you know trying to avoid toxins in our world right now is incredibly difficult to do I don't think that means we just throw up our hands and say well there's nothing we can do about it That seems to be the position the EPA has taken is that if you want a modern society with all of these different privileges and things, then you're just going to have to embrace that it's going to be really dangerous. And that you're gonna have polluted water and polluted air and polluted food and polluted soil. You're gonna suffer from disease but hey here's the pill the pharmaceutical company is going to provide so you can live with it. That sort of narrative right now we are living under there are number people who wanna fight back against that

35:21 but there are some very big powerful companies obviously that are fighting as well. I think we're really at a pivotal point, you know? What are we going to do and you layer on top of that the recent news about climate and climate change and how the world is really at a tipping point in in that space it's a dark time right now and we really need to get serious about it and educate ourselves, and be engaged. And try to create something better for our kids. Yeah! And there's also so many examples of the multinational corporations doing a bunch of damage and then blaming the people i mean here in california they're telling people only water your lawn on tuesdays and thursdays meanwhile there's these giant agricultural farms in the desert that are just spraying water all day every day out onto the highway anywhere

36:18 They're not conserving anything and a lot of cases i think also like big oil you know people complain about the pollution of cars well big oil suppressed other energy sources and gave us in oil only solution. And so, A lot of times it's blame put on the people like, hey you need to drive less or do this less. And it's like well we haven't been given a lot of choice and these big companies are so huge that the damage they're able to do at scale... It's like good luck telling an individual they're gonna make a real difference when stuff like that is going on. Definitely! It's a scary time as you said

37:00 A lot of countries are trying to push back. I think you don't really see this in the United States, but Mexico, Thailand, different countries in Europe Asia there are a number of governments and leaders who are trying to put their finger on this and push back and say we need to do something. I mean Mexico in particular there was...I don't have the quote in front of me but The leadership in Mexico has pushed back and said, we're going to ban certain chemicals. We're going to ban these GMO crops and we're going to ban glyphosate. And we need to protect our agriculture, our health, our environment. You know, we're gonna do this for the people."

37:42 And you rarely see that, but the response has been from the United States. Oh no you're not basically! You've had the chemical industry work with the State Department and USDA to try to intimidate and threaten Mexico with trade sanctions and problems to force them to take these chemicals and crops that they don't want. And you saw the same thing in Thailand, Thailand moved to ban chlorpyrifos which we talked about glyphosate and another chemical same thing State Department chemical companies went in they managed to keep glyphosate on the market in Thailand or flowing into Thailand but a chlorpyrifos was banned but so you are seeing as I said some countries Germany France others have said they're gonna

38:35 ban these chemicals, ban glyphosate in particular. But not a lot at this point." Yes and that is an excellent point there's a lot to be said about the GMO geopolitics and the American government going too bad for these companies and it just kind of makes no sense for them to be using pressure and leverage to break down any and all resistance on behalf of Monsanto it's like Just a little strange to me, but I also saw in your bio that you are a contributing author to synthetic pesticide use in Africa. What can be said about pesticide use in Africa?

39:18 Well, Africa is a really good example right now of the struggle that we're talking about. So you have a very large push by the Gates Foundation in particular to push GMO seeds and pesticides and really an industrial agricultural model upon the African people. And there's been a struggle over there. There are many struggles obviously with political stability food and environment and just a lot of different things. And the Gates Foundation has tried to position itself or present itself as riding to the rescue on this, and they've tried to create some distribution channels up-and-down a food chain to what they say is help smallholder farmers What many organizations over there are

40:10 and people representing these African farmers say is that's not actually what's happening. What's happening is you're seeing smallholder farmers be pushed out, and traditional agriculture and farming practices and traditions of that society be pushed aside to benefit the very large companies that are trying to come in. And this interest in agriculture by The Gates Foundation really sort of took off. It predated Monsanto coming into the Gates Foundation, but it really took off when a top executive at Monsanto joined the Gates Foundation in the early 2000's and he was charged with directing their strategy on this and since that time The Gates Foundation has really adopted the narrative of Monsanto

41:01 that GMOs and chemicals like glyphosate are crucial to feeding the world, to feeding Africa. And the Africans are really trying to push back and say no thank you! But so far it's not working out very well for them Right, I think that the glyphosate and Monsanto GMO issues are so glaringly obvious that if this is The solution that the Gates Foundation is pushing it makes me skeptical of any area that they're aggressively pushing for something. Yeah, it really dovetails or Dovetails is not the right word

41:44 is very similar to what we saw with GMO wheat in the United States, to a degree. And that's I guess maybe a very microscopic example but in the early 2000s Monsanto was telling wheat farmers here in the U.S., that they needed glyphosate tolerant wheat, that they needed Roundup Ready Wheat and Monsanto was going to roll it out and sell it to them revolutionized the wheat market here in the US and the wheat farmers said no we don't want it, we don't need it. It's going to interfere with our export market We don't want Roundup Ready wheat. Don't roll it out, you're going to mess up our market." And I attended so many meetings for a few years during this fight and Monsanto kept saying yeah you want it! The CEO of Monsanto told me this was so important to their profit stream that they get farmers to take GMO wheat

42:38 it ultimately was shelved. You don't now have the GMO wheat out there, you do have contamination issues where wheat around the Northwest has been contaminated with Monsanto's experimental wheat and caused a lot of disruption for certain farmers in the U.S., but you're seeing that same sort of playbook in Africa where they just push and push and push whether or not you know, the actual farmers say that they want or they need it. So it really is a top-down driven agenda and certainly not something where they're trying to provide farmers with what they need. Right! That was going to be one of my questions... Is if farmers were ever asking for this product? Because it seems like you mentioned in the history that they had made these

43:28 dangerous chemicals for warfare and it seems like they kind of just repurposed some of these tools for mass consumption, for retail. Well that's certainly what they did yeah I mean when we were no longer engaged in war in this massive war strategy you didn't have a need for something like Agent Orange to spray on the vegetation right? to try to get rid of the hiding places for your enemy. So they needed to repurpose these things and 2,4-D which was a part of Agent Orange. Which was an element of that. 2, 4 D is an herbicide that is used now in agriculture and this pushed very heavily and GMO crops have been designed to tolerate 2, 4 D just as they tolerate glyphosate so you can spray 2, 4 D directly over the tops of crops just like you spray them with glyphosate

44:29 And they're doing the same thing with another chemical called dicamba. They're just increasing the pesticide treadmill, if you will, pushing more and more of these products and what happens is sort of a self-fulfilling cycle as you push more herbicide use or even insecticide use mother nature resists right so weeds develop resistance insects develop resistance As weeds become more resistant, farmers have found themselves needing to use more glyphosate or thinking they need to use more chemicals. The weeds then become more resistant and they use more chemicals. It's just this vicious cycle that is not going to end well! The answer by the chemical companies is we'll just keep giving you more chemical solutions

45:17 The agronomists and scientists and many farmers say, no we need a better solution. We need to get back to traditional practices. We need to do more regenerative agriculture. We need to use other tactics than chemical warfare to grow our food Absolutely absolutely that was gonna be obviously one of my questions it is one of the big things that critics of. This kind of stuff would always say as well monsanto's feeding the world its kinda unnecessary evil and thats really just their PR as far as im concerned but,

45:55 Everything i've seen from regenerative agriculture and permaculture seems to show that there are much better ways, and we should get away from monocrop agriculture in our yields would actually explode. And also if covid has shown us anything it's that these big corporate supply chains can be shut on enough and So local high quality food sources have never really been more important to support and foster. They're better for you, they're better for the health of your local community it just seems like a no brainer! They also do produce better it seems Yeah I mean this whole talking point where we need our crops and chemicals to feed the world is really nothing more than that It's a propaganda point

46:45 And anybody who's really studied this issue with an objective view knows that. There is no data to back the idea that without glyphosate, without pesticides you can't feed the world The United Nations a few years ago actually authored a lengthy report addressing just that issue They identified these global corporations and said that they were you know using aggressive unethical marking tactics And they were lobbying, and they were you know using obstructive sort of strategies But that really there was no data to support that. And in fact pesticides, and I'll pull up the quote here if i can find it, pesticides heres what they say

47:30 this is from the United Nations, have a catastrophic impact on the environment human health and society as a whole. And they say it is time to create a global process to transition toward a safer and healthier food and agricultural production So that's what you see happening with regenerative agriculture and there are farmer groups in the United States who are trying to do that. They've been struggling a bit, you don't see types of subsidies and support financial support from US government for regenerative and organic agriculture that you do for industrial pesticide driven agriculture. There's quite a lot of money our government provides to farmers who use pesticides in industrial agriculture, so we really need to change the incentive structure but yeah these farmers have done the research and they find that

48:24 Getting away from the monocropping, using crop rotation and using cover crops. Other tactics really boost yield you get a healthier soil, you get more nutritious crop and product and you get a robust yield so the data doesn't lie but the corporations often do Right, right. And I halfway understand why people who are more of the right side philosophy go after regulation because it seems like so often these regulators are just protecting the monopolies of the major corporations not only are they doing damage control but in agriculture it seems like they're actively going after those small independent farmers trying to choke out the last ones that are there trying too

49:19 Some say it's a strategy drowned them in regulation that only the big guys can actually adapt to. People also say that happened during the COVID lockdowns, the McDonald's drive-thru never had to close but the local mom and pop restaurants that maybe do have a farm to table process well they couldn't adapt as quickly. I mean, who's eating inside of a McDonalds anyway? Everyone is using the drive-thru so that's allowed to happen even though people inside are making your food who cares who you're sitting next too whatever, but it just seems like in so many areas I almost empathize with those who focus their attention on those regulators because of choking out the little guy and in the case of farmers It's really dangerous because how many local organic farmers are in your area? Five. You better start giving them your money or they won't be there at all and when they fold good luck

50:16 getting another one to actually spring up and take its place. Like when you're already dwindling local options are gone, it will just be big corporate agriculture and that's a scary thing and so many people know glyphosate is a problem they might try to buy organic in the grocery store but do they know a local rancher or farmer because that's where you're really gonna save this industry? Yeah I think that's true if have the means to look around and see if there's some local farmer, dairy operator that you can at least support in some way or you can purchase from. Now of course you want to understand what practices are they using right? I mean if they're using chemical agriculture probably are just as good as buying conventional products in the grocery store

51:11 But if they're really working on regenerative agriculture, it's better not only for the food that they're growing but for the environment That maybe is close to where you live The pollinators and again the air and the water in the soil And all of that is going to be a healthier outcome when you aren't living the planet with these pesticides. I mean to your point Money talks in Washington, right? That's the walk and the talk So you know very big lobbying groups You know They're funded by these big companies and you know it's how the money trickles down and how things happen in Washington and These smaller organizations and these small farmers don't really have that same power in Washington

51:59 So it's not a level playing field. And just to note on the organic industry, one trend that we've seen as more consumers have identified organic as something that they desire and something that they're willing to pay more money for you've seen some very big industrial ag companies come in and buy up mom-and-pop organic operators So you now, you may not realize it but you might be buying an organic product in the grocery store that's actually owned by one of those big industrial ag companies. And these industrial ag companies have been trying to shift the organic standard and change what organic actually means so that's been an ongoing battle as well What is organic going to look like?

52:48 Is it really going to be that this chicken that you're purchasing, that says its organic? Are they... Have they really been out running around in the sunshine pecking at the ground or have they been locked in a cage near an open door so they can see the sunshine. It's a different thing but that is a really concerning issue for people and agriculture right now as well. Absolutely! Yeah, they really do blur the line As to like what is free range and what is organic and it's just nuts because if your products are so superior like you say, you should stamp monsanto proudly on every tomato scream glyphosate from the rooftops why isn't there a glyphosate section of our grocery store where we can.

53:35 go right to those products because they are so much better than all the others. Why are you trying to obscure what comes from where if it's just God's gift to the earth, glyphosate? Yeah well that was a question I always had for the companies when this GMO labeling was really becoming an issue in 2012 and 2013 we've had numerous states trying to pass laws to force labeling on food products that were made with genetically engineered crops and the food industry in Monsanto and the rest of them were really fighting this, saying God no we don't want products labeled GMOs. That they were made with GMO's And that was my question I said why not? Why not try to make this a wonderful thing you say GMO's are so great push

54:24 push that, promote that. You'd want to label things as GMO I would think but of course they didn't and they pushed back and used their power in Washington to push federal preemption then get some sort of compromise labeling and things like that out there so it's all a political struggle it seems like whenever people want truth and transparency about their food. Of course Another criticism is people say that eating organic is expensive, but I think if you put it in the context of your overall health It's not that expensive because being in poor health is quite expensive too.

55:05 Right, I mean different groups have tried to run numbers on that. You have a report from the National Toxicology Program a few years back that tried to make that point that these chemical exposures and food we eat and all of this you may think your getting a cheap deal right now and thats just the better way to go but if you look at the health care implications and costs of being sick and medical bills chemotherapies and treatments, and lost productivity. It's billions of dollars it amounts to billions of dollars annually in costs that we pay for the supposed cheap and convenient things that we get from these chemicals. Cheapness and convenience is often much more expensive than people think I suppose

55:56 Absolutely. That's definitely a layer to all this and a great point, and as we're starting to wrap this story up... You know last weekend I was in a Vegas hotel which is the only place I see real TV commercials anymore in hotels now it's quite happy to see one of those law firm ads did you have close contact with glyphosate call our offices today? And I heard also that Bayer said they would retire glyphosate in a couple of years, but I think only for retail consumers which is an odd caveat. If it's poison it's poisoned but what are these most recent chapters in the glyphosate story? It seems like there's more class action lawsuits coming out and it seems like they are actually winding down its use even though still seems years away

56:46 Yeah, well Bayer has been struggling the owner of Monsanto to put this litigation behind it in the United States. They say there are over a hundred thousand people like Lee Johnson, the guy I have my book Who have claims against the company saying that they are not hodgkin lymphomas due to their exposure around up so there has put together now about sixteen billion dollars they've told investors if set aside sixteen billion to try to settle the existing claims. But they have been really trying to figure out how in the world are they going to head off claims in the future because they don't want to stop selling it. They definitely do not want to put a warning label on it saying that can cause cancer if they acknowledge it can cause cancer you cannot spread directly on food crops anymore, the EPA should be disallowed

57:39 And it could really harm sales and volume use around the world. So what they have said is because most of the claims that they've been facing come from people like Lee Johnson or Alvin Alberta Piliot, regular folk that are out there not farmers, they've said they're going to stop selling it for the lawn and garden market, stop selling it to consumers and they'll stop doing that by 2023. But they are not going to stop selling it to commercial applicators and farmers, and they are not going to put anything on it that says it causes cancer, they say. So how they marry that with keeping litigation at bay is a nut they haven't cracked yet. They've put several proposals forward to the federal court judge who's in charge of all this federal litigation

58:31 and asked him to approve different plans. They wanted to put in place an order that nobody, there couldn't be any trials for four years the judge said that was crazy they told the judge they wanted to set up a science panel That would basically mean that juries would not be involved in deciding whether or not it causes cancer anymore It would be up to a science panel that they would help appoint To decide that question The judge said nope bad idea I'm not going to do it you know, lots of different problems with the plan. So right now there's a trial going on in California here in August 2021 and we'll see how that comes out. BEAR is trying very hard to get a case to be taken up by the U.S Supreme Court and they want the US Supreme Court to agree with them that the fact that the EPA backs them and says that it's safe and fine to sell

59:31 That that should preempt all of these lawsuits and should preempt all of these claims, and if they can get that ruling Then they think there'll be home free. So that's their key strategy right now Yeah, that tactic to remove the product from retail shelves but still sell to commercial farmers seems like a tactic to just get it out of sight out of mind. There's so many chemicals as you mentioned and so many pesticides that go on our food we don't know the names of it! We don't know the terms they're not as popularized as glyphosate. So if you can just take Roundup off the local Home Depot shelf, well I mean who's really digging into what Big Ag is using? Who's really going to know? You know people are too lazy to dig beyond that surface level so it seems pretty strategic I would say. Very strategic and aimed of course at appeasing investors. Investors have been very angry with Bayer

1:00:29 for buying Monsanto. And there have been several investor lawsuits and they've tried to topple management at Bayer, the stock price has really suffered. Bayers lost a lot of market capitalization because of its acquisition of Monsanto and this freight train of litigation that's been threatening to run the company down. And the investors have been very unhappy. So it's been deemed one of the worst corporate acquisitions in history. Yeah, that's one of the silver linings to me of all these multinational corporations swallowing each other up is that the ones that remain have to pay for the crimes of the ones they absorbed and it seems like a pretty heavy burden to bear and a real domino effect that can happen. So happy accidents! And I'm happy to see it continue if they want to keep monopolizing everything and swallowing out more and more stuff till we just have one big corporation

1:01:28 Good luck because you're going to have to pay out a lot of people for a lot of unrelated incidents from all the other companies that you bought up. And before we really close this out, we got to save a little time to talk about U.S right to know tell the people what you guys are doing over there because if we're looking for solutions and we're looking for the right organizations to support they should know a little bit about this one. Well yeah thank you for that part of this little tiny non-profit. We're called US Right to Know, usrtk.org is the website and we're not super splashy or super polished but what we do is we file Freedom of Information Act requests and State Records Act requests and really are all about getting data, getting documents and then putting them up on the website for free it takes a lot of money sometimes

1:02:24 but putting them out there for public consumption, for other journalists to use or policymakers or lawyers or advocacy groups. Anybody really who can benefit from this truthful information that's often hard to get and we know how to do it I've had to sue the EPA twice in the FDA once My colleagues are very involved, and we get documents from universities around the country and state regulatory bodies. And CDC FDA USDA EPA NIH you know a lot of different organizations and groups use our documents and find them quite helpful. They're the basis for stories in New York Times and LA Times, newspapers around the world actually

1:03:13 have relied on our documents for important stories. So as I said, we're small, we rely on donations, we don't take any corporate money, we only take money from individuals or foundations and other nonprofits so we can use all the support we can get but i think it's good work and I think its honorable work and were hoping that is helpful in some regard. Yes definitely! And just so people have a sense of the wider focus what are some of the non-glyphosate related issues that you guys have been covering? Well, right now in addition to... and it's not just glyphosate. We've looked at different pesticides I do a lot of work on pesticides and agrochemicals of course but right now we're looking at the COVID issue and the origin issue and been focusing on getting emails

1:04:04 from the different scientists who were involved in that and trying to track money flow, and the different narratives that have been put out. And sort of the subterfuge and the contradictions from the public narrative and then what was being discussed privately. And it's really, I mean, I think we can take some credit different news outlets have cited our work and our emails that we've obtained as driving the Biden administration's call for an investigation into this origin question because it is important

1:04:41 to understand gain-of-function research that's going on, that our government has funded. That's going on in laboratories around the world to make viruses more virulent and understand what that means there have been lab leaks that have been documented around the world it's important to understand what we're doing, what we're funding and what that means for public health and if this was a lab leak in some regard, it would be important to know that. So that maybe we can help make sure it doesn't happen again in some way and we've done a lot of work with CDC documents and shown how CDC is unfortunately has some very powerful connections to very powerful companies like Coca-Cola and other food beverage interests that influence CDC work

1:05:33 on sugar and obesity and diabetes and health. And so we're really just, again trying to expose things that maybe powerful companies don't want out there. Yes there seem to be a range of things you guys focus on but that is the connective tissue as you're going after the big Companies out there I saw stuff about Bill Gates investments in agriculture which you mentioned earlier the sugar lobby and artificial sweeteners so several issues that are important to this audience. I hope they do check it out yeah, and it's important to say thats

1:06:11 the companies that we have highlighted or the corporate interests or the organizations have really tried to shut us down and I've worked really hard to do that. And there are again internal documents that show that, so if there are people out there who want to support us, we would welcome that! Yes, cheers. And in terms of social media links your website future projects what should we tell them about following up on this if they want to keep tabs on what you have going on? Yeah, so well usrtk.org and we're also on Twitter and we have a Facebook page And then I'm on Twitter myself love for people to follow me and engage I try to put breaking news and documents up there as much as I can that seems to be way to get them out and my own website Carrie Gillum calm you can see articles that I've written all right for the Guardian News outlet as well fairly regularly so you can

1:07:08 the Guardians International News Agency and post a lot of information there. So lots of places to follow me or check it out, and I welcome... my website has my email and phone number and I welcome inquiries and news tips and things like that so please reach out and tell me your story. Phone number, now that is bold of you! That's dedication but yes you also do have a high quality twitter feed rare to see these days but it is there a lot of good information I learned just perusing that so keep up the great work I really enjoyed both books you are extremely knowledgeable in your niche and we are lucky to have you fighting the good fight

1:07:52 Thanks for stopping in to talk to us today. Best of luck and take care out there Well, you're very kind for having me and back atcha. So thank you right on And boom goes the dynamite what a dedicated and amazing journalist Kerry is just so impressive if he asked me I know some people might think that when you consider the full totality that is the THC iceberg, this is not as deep as some of the more out there things we might get into. But I've been looking for creative ways to poke holes through the common phrases were hearing these days without over focusing on it directly

1:08:36 These almost evangelical declarations to trust the science and esteem that no matter what unethical or criminal activity a company has been convicted of, in a crisis we just gotta acquiesce and follow their advice. They're the experts criminals are not when we really do know it's all tainted by their own incentives And we cannot trust the compromised media to report on things accurately A lot of people acknowledge the greed and cutthroat business practices, but I guess they have a belief that there is some magic line that doesn't get crossed? Science is science and data is data. That's neutral! But another thing I wanted to remind people of obviously Is how toothless and arbitrary FDA and EPA approvals for safety can be in today's world. I wish it wasn't that way

1:09:30 Without regulation, it'd probably be worse. But we need some checks and balances to keep the corporate people out of the Regulation Department! When these companies are willing to spend billions of dollars to capture everything you gotta be pretty vigilant...and we're not I think we've learned just how easy it is to control the narrative around certain things when a company is committed enough As Kerry said in his Tobacco Industry Playbook definitely still being passed around. And you gotta be pretty dense to not see all these factors in the case of Monsanto and glyphosate, because it's a pretty glaringly toxic example yet people still buy it cause its at Home Depot so it must be okay! That said all these themes are very important todays world and with todays dominant narratives and conflicts of interest

1:10:29 I would hope it would be a natural progression, but at the same time if you were actually presented with the information on how many mid-westerners with a lawn or garden are still using Roundup. I'm pretty sure you'd be shocked by how many have it in the shed right next to the lawn mower and blow up kiddie pool! So we do have a long way to go but today we talked about a template that I hope more people start applying to other situations and industries I just lead the horse to the unfluoridated water. Can't make anybody drink, although the sad state of everything definitely makes me want to." But as a journalist, as an expert in her area, Carrie is so high level! We also recorded this just before this recent FOIA document release that offers even greater evidence that Fauci funded gain-of-function research on coronaviruses in the Wuhan lab

1:11:24 But I'm sure her organization USRightToKnow, usrtk.org is all over it because it only further confirms the perspective she offered on that whole situation when talking about non-glyphosate investigations that U.S. Right to Know is currently involved in I've heard two recent glyphosate pieces of news as well, one being this emerging data that biofuels being burned and getting into the air is a huge problem because they use glyphosate-soaked corn for a lot of the biofuel. And you really shouldn't be burning that or breathing it in! Some are even saying it's a major exacerbator of COVID symptoms. Obviously we had a lot of people trying to overlay 5G coverage areas with hotspots and

1:12:10 Honestly, I just think it's industrialization in general. Cities are toxic places! EMF exposure, glyphosate burning in the fuel, terrible air and water quality... Trash everywhere, very dirty with people packed on top of each other What are you gonna do? Some data did come out about the smoke from California fires being a big factor in COVID hospitalizations. I've heard even mainstream news be willing to say that So I'm sure this working theory could be in the mix too. Also on the subject of the California fires, i recently heard that to fight invasive species of trees and to manage the forest in general they have drilled into certain trees and basically poured glyphosate into the trunk of the tree! And so the forests have these standing dead dry trees that would never be there in a natural context

1:13:12 And so that's a whole nother thing that we should think about when we just toss chemicals around. Chemicals that probably burn strangely and definitely leave these dead trees sitting there like a tinderbox Plus if you wanted to stop the fires, we would just use a Wilhelm Wright cloud buster But in higher side news We are having a meetup in San Diego If you want to meet me for some drinks and a casual hang with other THC fans We're going to be doing that this Sunday, September 19th at 5pm I'll say. At the Tipsy Crow in downtown San Diego It's the kind of thing that i've wanted to do for a while now...I think im just gonna stop talking about it and DO IT! You can talk to Joe or John tell them you are there to see me and you should have no wait and no cover Im gonna bring a little sign up sheet for any locals who want to be notified if we keep this up but thats pretty much it

1:14:14 just trying to find the others and all that. And The Tipsy Crow seems like a great place to start, and I really hope to do more of these across the country and probably make some kind of community calendar where you guys can add your own events but that is a ways off so let's see how this one goes first i'm going to put out another announcement so attendance doesn't rely on listening to this whole episode and making it to this point Seems like the kind of thing that deserves its own notification, but other than that... Trying to keep the spirits high. I hope you're doing the same! Harder to do these days? I know, but all the more important and as always You can sign up for THC+. If you only heard the first hour this interview support me get twice as much in today's episode with Carrie we talked about why there's a chapter called Lizard Man in her book how Monsanto's lawyers played as dirty as they could in the courts

1:15:12 other examples of corruption and putting profits over people with Purdue Pharmaceuticals and General Motors, Kerry's thoughts on COVID the corporations involved in the lab leak narrative, and other industrial chemicals that concern Kerry. So as much as you like free first hour shows I do how could you not like The Full Thin? But ya know that So I will let you get on with your day. I hope to see the locals at the Tipsy Crow and have some fun, but until then i'm getting out of here! Big thanks to Carrie and to you guys for sticking with me. I've done my part... Your move chemical companies science suppressors and poison polluters your fucking move

1:15:57 I won't take it, no i refuse If its alright ill keep my refuge I've been scheming of bigger things and Have to leave my old life behind Gotta transfer To the inner earth I built a box Built a hole gotta need a Going under And now you'll find me In the bunker Bunker Take it un- In the bunker Bunker Take it under Me in the bunker Bunker

1:16:45 Yeah, the laughing elite classes while the scheming says who do you think this? Tell you the basics they print your money got the fed in your head currency now They're smiling and your cage me how this happened. How you don't see? Killage and plunder, plunder Plans are simple. The best protection of all is the special shelter built according to specifications of your local civil defense organization The basement of any house or building will become a good improvised shelter if you block the windows with sandbags If you don't have sandbags just what can you do? Bunk up Take it under You'll find me in the bunker

1:18:04 Take it under, you'll find bonker Bonker, take it under Me in the bunker, bunker Plunder is a plunder, rape pillage and plunder Plunder is a plunder Rape pillage and plunder