Wal Thornhill | The Scientific Case For The Electric Universe

00:04 When it's puppet masters almost surely have a dick, there's clearly maybe something ebby. And until you've thoroughly tested every last post just to give you know the less you really do! That's true Dr. Seuss. Where would we without TNT? Cause' we know they're lying to us Just don't look without TNT The highest-tied Jack show of all company

00:43 Alright, Higher Side Chatters. As we continue to unravel the reality onion we find ourselves turning to the alternative for paradigms and possibilities that provide better explanations in areas the mainstream has steered us wrong. And when we're talking about the sciences and our understanding of space and what makes up our reality one idea I keep coming back to is the Electric Universe In a nutshell, it proposes that electricity—not gravity per se—is the primary operator in our universe. And when you dig into the widespread implications of that and how it relates to many different aspects of the human story, it can be quite compelling! You might remember the show we did with David Talbot where he told us much about the Electric Universe model, the plasma discharge patterns that would have been seen in the ancient sky and how this very well could have been the basis for ancient mythology and the symbols we see on many petroglyphs around the world.

01:30 Well, lucky for us today we have Wal Thornhill here the other half of the Electric Universe equation whose expertise is the scientific explanations for why the Electric Universe model makes the most sense. Wal received a degree in physics at Melbourne University in 1964 and began postgraduate studies with Professor Victor Hopper's Upper Atmosphere Research Group and he has been studying these things ever since He's the co-author of the books The Electric Universe & Thunderbolts Of The Gods both with David Talbott as well as the co-founder of The Thunderbolts Project, the main hub for All Things Electric Universe. And he's given several impressive lectures and presentations on the topic as well. It's an honor and a pleasure, and I can't wait to dive into it. Walt, my man, welcome to The Higher Side! Thanks very much Greg

02:12 Yeah, thanks for doing it. I do find all the things on David's side of the coin to be very interesting. I think the case is strong for plasma discharge displays in the ancient sky being a major influence on people that day and their stories we refer to as mythology but if science isn't there to support it then it all kind of falls flat so I'm anxious to hear the case made from your perspective I guess to start we should probably give the people a bit of a refresher. So can you define the Electric Universe paradigm for us and maybe contrast it with the conventional views? How do you typically break people in?" Well, I think the thing to remember is – and this goes back to the fact that we're not really taught the history of science…

02:53 a story which makes us look good. But if you go back and look at what some of the great names in the past were saying, they actually were intuitively sensing the fact that electricity played the major role in people like Newton and Faraday Faraday himself felt that the electric force would explain gravity eventually, and he said it would be a breakthrough of unimaginable scope. And I think he's quite right! The way I came to it was reading Velikovsky's Wells & Collision exactly the same as with David Talbot. Only, I was lucky because

03:36 Before I entered university, I read that book and that inspired me to follow it up. So when I was at university, I think I was the only science undergraduate who is in the shelves of the anthropology section just pulling books at random off-the-shelf and reading the stories of, you know, the most ancient peoples on Earth. The story has just leapt off the page at me when I'm looking from Velikovsky's point-of-view which is that the solar system does have a recent history and that all of the reverence for planetary gods for the earliest civilizations

04:14 was real. They weren't just making stories up, the stories were about the activities of planets! So I managed to complete my degree and go on ...I began postgraduate work but by asking questions I was getting hostility... I wasn't getting the answers I was satisfied with so I decided that academia is no place for somebody who had heretical ideas So, I left and joined the computing fraternity with IBM first and then the Australian government. And when I was with the Australian government, I took the opportunity because I'd traveled the world many times to meet up with people who I felt had parts of the puzzle � that included Velikovsky himself! That was an important meeting because he very kindly accepted me and my family, three daughters

05:08 and my wife at his home in Princeton. Wow! It was only six months before he died, and of course he would have had no idea that I might pick up the baton that he was to drop shortly after And I was unaware of that fact too, but the question I put to him was that because the major argument against him was merely one of stating his work disobeyed Newton's laws. What was it we didn't understand about gravity? Yes! He had actually thought about and written about it but he didn't want it broadcast because he had reservations about it and in fact the basic idea came from one of his daughters

05:51 But it basically boiled down to the fact that normal matter, you know the matter that makes up you and I and everything around us is made of neutral atoms. If they weren't we'd all be electrically charged and be zapping everything we touched! But these neutral atoms themselves are made up of electrical particles, positive or negative and they can't occupy the same space at the same time. This means that you can actually have atoms slightly distorted by their surroundings, by nearby atoms and the Earth itself, and when they're distorted they form tiny electric dipoles which are electrically neutral however they do produce an electric force." And it was that he said explained how you can hold billions of tons of water in the atmosphere

06:41 against the force of gravity because water droplets, very small ones are much heavier than the air around them. He said it's because they are dipolar molecules in other words they form tiny little electric dipoles And in the Earth's electric field, that defies gravity and so you can ... That's why you can have those huge thunderstorms that dump billions of tons of water on you in a few minutes. That too is an electrical effect! In other words the lightning discharges some of that electricity and all of a sudden you've got a downpour. So all these things made sense to me. It was only two years later there was a tiny advertisement in The Scientific American

07:21 It was called the Journal of Classical Physics and the very first article talked about the structure of the electron. Now this is an idea that particle physicists haven't cottoned on to, they think the electron is a fundamental particle but this guy decided that no it was a repeated pattern, all particles are made up of orbiting systems of charge and when you do that all of a sudden you have an explanation for both magnetism and gravity. Now, with all of these kinds of simple ideas in mind it was possible then to look at the work that David Talbot had done which was quite incredible really! He spent decades on that I spent decades coming from another angle we met up finally

08:11 in 1994 when I rang him in Portland, Oregon and said somebody here wants a copy of your book The Saturn Myth. And he said well it's out of print. I told him what I was doing and he said oh you got something you'd like to present? Well putting on the first international conference here in Portland! Well I said yes I have because I'd been spending some years in England with a group over there who were involved in post-Velikovskian studies, if you like. And I was friends with some of the people working on the scientific aspects and it was there when I saw what Dave had done, I realized immediately what he was showing were electrical effects between planets because he was showing Venus in relationship to the Earth and so on

08:57 I caught up with him and said, you may not remember me but 20 years ago we met at the conference in Hamilton Ontario. It was the first international Velikovsky meeting And I'd been invited to that by David's brother, as it turns out. So, I said to him, I've seen your work and think our combined story is far more powerful than either of us trying to work alone – me on the science and you on the reconstruction of the past history with Earth! And I managed to convince him of that a year or so later when I camped at his office floor for a month

09:35 in December while the water dripped outside incessantly. And we put on an international meeting in January 1997, it was and that was the start of the collaboration. We thought it would take off very quickly but its taken a lot of work since then I think it wasn't the time certainly wasn't the time We've become, as Dave says a movement because qualified scientists and engineers and all sorts of people in all different disciplines are joining us because this is a science which has no boundaries. You can cross disciplines easily because you can see the connections once you have a big picture of how things seem to work

10:22 everyone and everyone can understand it, then they can see what their role could be in furthering what we're doing. And that's one of the most exciting things about it now that we're actually doing a multi-million dollar experiment in Canada to show that the Sun is not what we think it is! This all boils down to the fact if the universe was driven electrically then stars are not thermonuclear gravitational bodies. In fact, when you look at the idea you realize just how desperate it was! It was a desperate attempt by scientists centuries ago to explain how the Sun could keep shining for so long without running out of fuel because it was viewed as like a fire in the sky, you know? The old campfire-in-the-sky idea that had to be self sufficient

11:12 But the Electric Universe is one of connectivity. Everything is connected and in the case of stars, they're connected to the galaxy itself by electrical filaments which connect everything and they've only just begun to discover them. Radio astronomers have known about them for a while, but the establishment was unwilling to give any credence to the data that had been collected and been analyzed by one radio astronomer in particular Gerard Vachure who showed that they could only be explained in terms of plasma electrical plasma effects

11:49 that hasn't yet seeped in. They've found there are these filaments connecting stars in the galaxy and locally, and they discovered that the boundary of the Sun with the galaxy is odd. It wasn't what they expected it fitted none of the theories I think there were about 18 different theories at the time and not one of them matched except mine! So This is just sort of an outline of what the Electric Universe is about. It's about simplification, which is what the scientists in the 19th century were all about. We lost that in the 20th century when we entered at an age of neo-Pythagoras idea that you can explain everything in terms of geometry and where Einstein went with his idea of warped space and so on but that is dead end because

12:43 It describes things, mathematics can describe things and it's very powerful and it's very useful. But it can't explain things so you've got to have the correct ideas in place first then apply the mathematics and then it's really powerful because you can see new ways of looking at things and get information that would otherwise be inaccessible just by observation So, I went on a bit I'm afraid but it's like the old exam question. You have one hour to describe the universe and give another example. Well said! Yeah, I am

13:22 I'm so curious about it. I do like everything i hear and uh...I guess a lot of people might be surprised to realize that a lot of things they might consider to be quote settled science actually are just kind of ideas that really haven't been backed up in a lot of cases and I guess I would ask you what holes are there in the conventional model that the electric universe model fills in? I should say to begin with that there is no such thing as settled science. Right! It's an oxymoron... The Electric Universe uses quite heavily the peer-reviewed work of plasma cosmologists, and plasma cosmologists have been working in a laboratory for decades since almost a century ago looking at the effects of electrical discharges in a very thin gas or the vacuum of space if you like

14:19 and they were able to show that you can explain galaxies, spiral galaxies their shape the rotation and so on without even using gravity. When I put gravity into the mix it didn't... it made no difference so it shows you that Galaxies at that scale, the electromagnetic forces of the electric currents flowing through the universe dominate. So you can forget about gravity and that's why the gravitational theorists had to invent dark matter to make up the deficit in their model. The deficit is there because the concepts underpin it are invalid! So the question then is well what's this huge concentration of mass at the center of a galaxy if it's not a black hole?

15:05 Well, one of our team here, Steve Crothers another Australian has shown that the theory of black holes is actually full of mathematical holes. A lot of meaningless terms are involved and this is one of the dangers you look at a blackboard full of mathematical symbols unless the lecturer can explain each of those symbols in physical terms then there's no necessity to believe anything that comes out of all those equations. So, the plasma cosmologists show that the spiral arms of a galaxy are due to what is known as a plasma pinch effect and that is when the currents I should say flow through the universe like twisted pairs now engineers know that twisted pair wires is the most efficient way of transferring

15:57 energy down to wires without loss. And the universe was there first, they did it! I mean the universe knows how to do it. Nature never does things the hard way Now, when two of those filaments ... they're huge by the way ... when two of them come close to one another they interact magnetically and draw each other together until they form ... they go into a dance if you like around one another and they pinch together and electric currents flow from the ... depending on which way you look at current flow flow, the electron flows goes from the outside to the inside and so at the centers of galaxies there's not a black hole. There is a thing called a plasma focus or dense plasma focus it's where the plasma is densest and this is where you get all these effects which look like a massive object however

16:52 Einstein, or the equation that is attributed to Einstein, E equals mc squared. The one that everyone knows and nobody understands says that energy and mass are equivalent. Now in the dense plasma focus you have a thing shaped like a donut where the electric currents are twisted as tightly as you can imagine around one another and because of all the energy stored in that tiny little thing it appears extremely massive and its effect on the bodies around it, appears though it's extremely massive. Another aspect of these that the engineers know that worked on these plasma focusers and this is the sort of thing as there was even a guy here in Canberra had one at his garage who was a high voltage engineer he said no they're very easy to build

17:41 Anyway, this tiny little doughnut becomes unstable at some point and it ejects jets along the axis. And this is exactly what we see galaxies doing and exactly what black holes shouldn't be doing since they're supposed to suck everything in! Right? So the evidence is just staring us in the face that the gravitational model of galaxies is incorrect but this comes down then to the human aspect in science And because of the specialization, the way we train people these days their ability to see the big picture is actually disabled. It's this concentration on detail like a chicken pecking for seeds in amongst the dirt. This concentration on detail doesn't allow them to see the big picture and as well-known psychiatrist said

18:32 This kind of left brain thinking is the kind that is required for survival on the part of the chicken, but it's the right hemisphere which has a global ... keeps an eye out so that the chicken doesn't become somebody else's dinner. Well, it seems that the way we educate students these days in mathematics and that gives them the left hemisphere dominance which inhibits this ability to actually see what's right in front of them. Right So, you know we have to change our ways. We have to change the way we train people the old classical model of education where you did a bit of everything, you know? You did the arts as well as the sciences is actually the kind of thing that I think we have to return to. And i think a lot of students would be happy with that too! I agree yes separating everything has really set us back in a lot of ways Yes and uh... In one your presentations you say that the solar nebula model has no successful predictions to its name and that sounds like a pretty bold statement what exactly do you mean by that

19:36 What I mean is, it's never been shown how you form a single planet in the vastness of space from a disk. You imagine where the Earth is now that there's a disk of dust and gas that stretches right around the Sun in our orbit? There is no real way to make that dust coalesce to form a single planet and...I attend astrophysics seminars at the research school here at the National University. And we had an expert on the solar system and the planets, and planetary formation. He admitted that you need a different theory for every planet. Now this shows that the model they use, that gravitational accretion model

20:25 is in serious doubt, but this is not admitted. What happens is that people then using the left hemisphere approach again, the left brain approach they go and find their computers and they build models to try make it work And I can make all kinds of assumptions It doesn't matter They just add more and more variables This is one reason why The Big Bang model has more variables than actually information In other words its a failing Now, with the planets, the thing is that when the infrared telescopes in space began to peer into the clouds in deep space where stars are forming, they were surprised to find that they're forming in strings like beads on a string.

21:13 Now, this is precisely what the plasma cosmologist said would happen because stars form rather like the galaxy forms in pinches along these electrical currents through the cloud. So if you like, you can imagine lightning in an earthly cloud. lightning can form a bead lightning if it's sufficiently powerful. That means you get little bright blobs where the channel breaks up and this appears to be what happens in those molecular clouds in deep space. Now, there is no reason at all to suggest that only stars are formed in that pinch any bodies down to any size conformed in that same event

21:56 And this is precisely the Electric Universe model. Once the lightning fades, if you like to put it that way, gravity then does begin to take over and these bodies then assume partnerships and this is why the solar system looks like a fruit salad! You know there's no gradation of properties from inside to outside They're all individuals, if you like. Like a blended family and this is important from the view of David Talbot's reconstruction of the recent history of the solar system and also the incredible amount of research and documentation that has been done by one of our colleagues, Duarte Cardona in his star series of books And if you want to know what the recent history of the solar system and humanity was really all about

22:44 I would recommend that you begin to read Duarte Cardona's books. They're very readable, highly heavily documented if you want to chase things up and they make sense! And it was his work that i used as a basis for trying to explain using the physics of the Electric Universe because I felt that if I couldn't do that then we were in real trouble and I finally managed to do that just a few years ago I mean, it took that long to figure out how you could actually form the strange things that were recorded and memorized and memorialized by the ancients. It's a picture which outsize fictions any science fiction story but it can be supported both scientifically now and through the mytho-historical reconstructions

23:35 Right, I definitely want to get into the radically different history of our own solar system as described in this paradigm because it is so different than what we're typically told. But i'm curious you know talking about the way that planets form that they are formed somewhat suddenly and violently from larger bodies rather than slowly formed over millions of years Has a planet birthing as described in the Electric Universe model ever been observed? Well, one of the things that we observe with our own Sun is that it can eject billions of tons of matter in these coronal mass ejection events they call them and at very high velocity. So, it's not true that you can't form objects by one giving birth to another

24:26 And in the electrical model of stars, this is actually what we expect. One of the reasons why stars have a cut-off in size. The other aspect is that when we look out into space and we look at other planetary systems and we see stars with rings of dust around them, we assume that that is gravitational accretion. The Electric Universe says no, no! That is actually the result of that star having expelled material and it goes into orbit about it Now, in the process of expulsion the forces involved generally give you a backing up of materials that will form one large object or maybe a couple of fairly large objects and they'll be embedded in a ring of dust initially. And also we have the record of the ancients and their description of the birth of Venus

25:21 And of course, Venus is a very hot object as if it had been born from the bulk of the body. This fits the electrical model that when a star suffers a sudden change in its electrical environment it has to adjust and the best way of adjusting is to get rid of charge and that charge is in the form of matter, the actual material of the star itself And so that's what it is, an electrical discharge removes that material. A bit like an arc welder can you can weld against gravity, you can weld uphill if you like...

25:58 Sorry about that. No worries We were talking about Venus and I was gonna say Venus is an interesting body in this paradigm because it seems like according to the Electric Universe model It's the youngest body in our solar system And also, I guess I've heard you talk about some type of charge that can be detected between Venus and the earth if I'm not mistaken Yes That's so that's right Venus When these objects are born from a, ejected from a star it's the initial effect is rather like two gears meshing and you imagine in this case we're talking about proto-saturn as we call it. The brown dwarf star that became the planet Saturn. Right! In the process of adjusting to its new electrical environment within the Sun's electrical neighborhood

26:50 It had suddenly to change from being a star, to being what it was in effect of giant comet and comets we know spit material out. This is part of the electrical discharge effect and it was dramatic in the case of Saturn because here you've got two stars fighting over its power supply and Saturn of course lost because it was smaller body Now, when this body is ejected it has a slight backward kick and this explains why Venus has this retrograde rotation. Also it explains its great heat I mean what do they say 800 degrees Fahrenheit or something at the surface? It's enough to melt some metals!

27:34 Also, it has a young surface. Now the standard idea was that the resurfacing event must have occurred and the latest one is I must have been hit by some large body and everything melted! These are just ad hoc stories with nothing to back them up at all, just story to try and cover-up the cracks in the actual model itself But all of the facts fit and also around Venus you've got this equatorial belt of filamentary scars which were recorded by the Magellan orbiter with its radar.

28:11 And those scars are exactly the kind of phenomena you see in an electrical discharge. They're called Lichtenberg figures, the kind of things you see on a golf green where lightning has struck the flag and spread across the grass. It's that sort of spidery effect! And in a thick atmosphere like Venus has got that's precisely what would happen to any lightning it would split up into long thin filamentary streaks and they stretch around the equator, which is where you'd expect the main discharge to have struck. So all of the evidence is right there! Right? Yeah I love this stuff and how does this model of planet birthing relate to planet composition because we're told of how they're formed in gravity a planet gets denser and denser towards its core might this be different in any significant way

29:06 Well, if we go back to what I was talking about the birth of stars and planets in a molecular cloud. One of the very interesting effects that you get in that kind of accretion of a body is that the elements are sorted by their electrical nature and the fact that it's an electrical or electromagnetic event. And you get all the heavy elements at the center and they're cool, by the way, they're not hot and they radiate their energy away as it's accreting, and you get the lightest elements like hydrogen and helium at the outside. So that becomes the atmosphere of a large body or oxygen nitrogen things like that for smaller bodies. This also tells us that stars do not have hydrogen at their center! I mean it's a crazy idea when you think about it that the lightest element there is

30:05 would be at the core of a heavy body, like a star. It's just not so! The heavy elements are all there they're made just like planets and this is why when you look at a sunspot it's dark beneath that glowing plasma sheath That's all it is...the Suns' like a ball of lightning and we see the light tops of the lightning which has that granular effect where it clears in other words discharge goes straight through from above down through them to lower levels It's darker down there. And you can actually see in some of the best telescopic views that inside that black sunspot is brighter, smaller dots. In other words, that's where it becomes more filamentary so it all fits the electrical model. Right. And when you come back to Venus and that, the ejection of matter from a star or gas giant or anything like that

31:04 will come from within the body so that you'll get the heavy elements. And it's interesting, from that point of view that was only a year or so ago that it was discovered that supernova seemed to have turned itself inside out and scientists were puzzled, why are we seeing these heavy elements first? The reason is that a supernova is really catastrophic electrical event for a star. This is what happens, the interior of the star gets shot out and that's why you see the heavy elements first. The supernova explosions are where the star lights up as bright as the rest of the galaxy for short time is due to the fact that it's... the circuit has suddenly broken near the surface of the star or even in some layers below

31:54 And this is an effect that you see with on Earth in those high voltage transcontinental power switching yards. If you open the circuit while it's live, all of the energy stored over those hundred miles or several hundred miles of wire The energy stored electromagnetically around the wire all collapses down on the point where the circuit was broken and you get that colossal arc that spreads up into the atmosphere. Well, you can imagine a star if it breaks the circuit what happens to it? That's exactly what a supernova is!

32:32 Interesting. Now, you had mentioned material radiating away and I've heard you say something to the effect that inside a planet gravity could actually be repulsive and that's kind of an interesting possibility how is that scientifically feasible? This is one of those problems where scientists repeatedly, for thousands of years have used a Earth-centric view. First of all the Earth was the center of the universe and later on it was demoted but we still have this tendency to see things from our little cocoon in the atmosphere on the surface of the earth. Right! And of course it's obvious that everything that we let go off falls to the earth

33:19 This comes down to the structure of matter, the structure of atoms. And The Electric Universe also notes that there is a tendency on the part of nature to repeat patterns at different scales. Now, at the scale of the atom if you just suggest and this is what Belikovsky was hinting at although he didn't get quite that far... If you suggest that the particles that make up the atom are themselves little orbital systems then they too can distort and form little electric dipoles. And of course, in the case of a large body like the Earth every atom in the Earth and in us is attracted towards the center of the earth or the center of mass. And because the nucleus in each atom is anywhere from 2 to 4 thousand times heavier than the electrons that are flying around it, the nucleus of each atom is actually offset from the center

34:21 Now when you do that, as I said before each atom becomes a tiny electric dipole. But that electric field within the atom distorts the particles themselves and that's the important part. It is not the atoms so much as the particles within it get distorted and the distortion is minuscule, its tiny! In fact it's so tiny that the gravitational force is 39 powers of 10 less than the plain electric force. And this has been a puzzle, you know? Why is gravity such a weak force? Well this is the answer! We're dealing with the actual electrons and protons and neutrons that make up the atom in this effect. Now when you look at it that way, you realize

35:10 Hang on a minute, we're all attracted like a daisy chain effect. You know like a whole string of magnets you jostle them on a slippery surface and they'll all join head to tail, head to tail, head to tail and this is exactly what the effective gravity is. All the atoms in the Earth and us are aligned in the same way so we are attracted very weakly to each other but this suggests it's a dipole force that's the same as a magnet. We've got plus or minus or north or south And that means that in the case of bodies, celestial bodies � stars, planets, asteroids, comets, moons

36:04 Very interesting. Yes, I'm actually working on this topic with some other scientists to try and figure out what the magnitude of the effect is? What the possibilities are concerning the structure of the Earth and the Sun because it means that you do not have infinite compression from gravity which is required by the Big Bang model to make black holes and neutron stars and all the other exotic ideas they've come up with in an effort to create a lot of mass in a very small space. As I said before, plasma cosmologists got rid of that necessity. The Electric Universe points out that it's an impossibility! It takes you back to...the kind of science that engineers like because they can see how it works. Yeah

36:51 Hmm. Huh? Yeah, that's really awesome that you're diving into that and I know you're probably more on top of this than most people but i've heard you reference some of the semi-recent seismic data on the earth what is the latest seismic data show well let's just something that i've begun investigating um not in a position to make any uh bold statements about it fair fair it's just that there The center of the Earth or the seismic, the deep seismic signals that are supposed to approach the center of the Earth do show anomalies and I would expect that. But I haven't gone into it enough to be able to explain it just yet and be confident in the explanation but certainly this has to be looked at from a completely different point-of-view

37:39 the idea that the matter inside the Earth is super compressed. All of geological laboratories who've used these diamond anvils and that to recreate the conditions inside the Earth are actually mistaken. I mean, this view of gravity has a tremendous impact our thinking about the rest of the universe. Yes! And that ties in with the work Modern-day Galileo, he was dubbed Halton Arp who also came to the conclusion that gravity on a galactic scale and interstellar scale must be repulsive not attractive. And that is a rather heretical idea until you look back and you see that in history even Newton considered the idea. There was a chap who was contemporary who came up with it

38:31 and Nicolas Spadio de Duillier, who you never hear of. Then a later chap, Frenchman Lesage came up with a similar idea but in each case they were looking at something particles or something impinging from all directions and when you have two bodies shielding one another by being close together from particles from certain direction it gave the effect of holding them in place even though they're repelling one another So, I mean this is important. Fundamentally important from the view of cosmology because when you think about it the Big Bang is essentially completely unbalanced. You've got an explosion and then you've got collapses and collisions that's all they have to work with but what Halton Arp's work showed was that the universe is not expanding and he showed that definitively

39:26 And so he said, there must be something that holds these bodies, the galaxies and stars apart. So he was looking into this problem of the sage-type gravity as it was called, repulsive gravity but there was no satisfactory answer until the Electric Universe model suggests that It is repulsive, so gravity is long-range repulsive short range attractive. If you're close to a body all of the atoms in your body respond to that body and are attracted to it but once you get beyond the sphere influence of that body then you are being repelled by everything else. That gives an idea that there's sorts of things Velikovsky was suggesting happened in the solar system which under Newton's theory of course seemed impossible

40:14 are actually possible. Bodies don't collide with one another, they try and avoid one another which means that it changes the whole game and raises the odds in Belikovsky's favor by an enormous amount. Right, well summarized! And let's get into some of those radical changes that may have taken place in our own solar system as a guideline for some of this I guess? The cliff notes of our solar system history is that initially the Earth and Mars were rotating around Saturn, the system changed spectacularly when it encountered the Sun And then we have that axial column of satellites that was formed, that's kind of described in Thunderbolts of the Gods. I guess you've also described it in a previous presentation as a kebab kind of setup? That's right this is kebab

41:03 I like that visualization. But how did we get from there to here? Because it seems like such a radical change, I mean it's probably pretty extreme and hard to fathom for a lot of people who are used to thinking about things conventionally... Yes Can you walk us through how we got from a situation where Earth and Mars were rotating around Saturn to this shish kebab-like configuration Okay My view is that We Were satellites of a brown dwarf star. Now, in recent years astronomers have come around to the idea that life is possibly more likely around brown dwarf stars, you know planets orbiting very closely to a brown dwarf star

41:49 This appears to have been the case according to all of the information we can glean from the most ancient recollections, you know, the stories of the purple dawn of creation and so on. In other words, the light in the sky was different and this is precisely the color I would expect if we had been a satellite of a brown dwarf! The other thing is that the electrical model of stars which encompasses all stars without exception shows that red stars are stars that are having difficulty collecting enough charge from their surroundings. And what happens in a plasma then is that the

42:29 the electrode, the anode in this case the star expands its sphere of influence and it appears as a red glowing shell because what happens is that electrons involved are accelerated in this electric field. The bigger the shell, the stronger the electric field and more glow occurs now that glow would occur kind of at the boundaries of what we call the magnetosphere, or astronomers call a magnetosphere which is actually an electrical plasma sheath within which the magnetic field of the object is trapped. Now with a brown... with a red star or brown dwarf star it's actually quite huge! For instance if Jupiter's magneto-sphere was lit up it would appear the size of the full moon in the sky at opposition

43:18 And yet it's so distant and just looks like a point of light to the naked eye, but it would appear as big as the Moon or as big as the Sun if you like. Now, if you were to look at Jupiter then all of its inner moons and so on would be orbiting within that glow. This appears to be exactly where we and Mars were plus a whole lot of other satellites presumably like Titan and so on. Right! When I came across that idea, it also occurred to me that this is the most hospitable circumstance you could imagine for life to form in the universe because it's like a cocoon or a womb. Any body orbiting within that glow would receive the same amount of energy per square meter over the entire surface of the planet

44:07 And this explains why it is that we had coal and dinosaurs and so on, living in the Antarctic and the Arctic Circle. This is impossible you know? In our present circumstance! The work of Duaru Cardona showed that this was... It fitted precisely with his kind of story Now the problem is of course that a star which has this large glowing envelope, electrical envelope. When it meets more bright stars like the Sun and enters its heliosphere which is its electrical boundary then all hell breaks loose because suddenly the star no longer has this sheath so any planets inside would suddenly view the rest of the universe for the first time

44:57 Also, the star itself would try and readjust to its new situation by ejecting matter. And that's precisely what it did! And in doing so it lit up phenomenally. It turned into a nova — what is known as a nova — a star that suddenly brightens by many orders of magnitude. So that's what gave rise to the stories of Let There Be Light. That was the creation of our new celestial system. Now, the other thing is too In the Sun's environment, star, the brown dwarf star switches from being a star to being a comet. And we know that comets have what is called non-gravitational accelerations and that is due to the fact its mass is changing as a result of this exchange of charge and it also occurred on Earth too, gravity in the Earth changed

45:50 But it then gets sort of sucked, if you like. Like a pip from the center of this little system and its satellites are left trailing behind rather like the breakup of comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 where that formed a string of objects. Okay! But we're sitting in the tail with this comet and that was an electrical discharge effect and they gave rise to all of the fantastic imagery comes down to us from rock art and so on which looked like aliens or strange, I mean inexplicable artwork. They were attempts to inscribe in rock � the most difficult way you can imagine what they were seeing in the sky as being something phenomenal and never to occur again. That was the real creation story!

46:42 I mean, it had nothing to do with the creation of the universe. That's nonsense! It had to do with a creation of a completely new environment. The adjustment on the part of what we call proto-Saturn was to eject Venus and that was witnessed, it was described. Exactly what you'd expect there is the worm Ouroboros, you know, the one that these snake that swallowed its tail in other words it formed a ring of matter around Saturn to begin with but it too fell behind and then became this radiating star that David talks about David Talbot

47:22 in his work and Mars of course was between us and this fantastic apparition of Venus. And poor old Mars, unfortunately! It was like a bobbing object exchanging charge between us and Venus because it would get close to Venus, Nabilia saw the mighty thunderbolt of the gods and Mars would change mass and drop towards Earth. And then it would zap the Earth and they'd move apart again that would oscillate up and down the column gave rise to all the stories dwarves and the mother goddess, and the baby returning to the womb � all sorts of things like that. All of them are inexplicable stories but they are global. The Australian Aborigines in fact here have some remarkable creation stories which describe the time when there were two suns in the sky

48:15 a greater and lesser Sun, and one of them hid in a hollow log which was the imagery of the plasma column between us and proto-Saturn. Wow! That's... There is another aspect to this too. One of the big puzzles when we talk about the formation of planets is Earth water? Where did it all come from? The answer is that as a satellite of a dwarf star It is both the best place to form life, but it is also the place where unfortunate outbursts can occur on the part of your mother-son if you like. Because brown dwarfs are known to flare and in flaring they of course are ejecting matter and so you look at all the bodies in the solar system that have been investigated so far they all have strata. They've layer upon layer upon layer of material

49:08 So, the Earth and the other objects tend to have been built up. The surface layers are built-up by events that occur and some of them are quite catastrophic. And of course our geological record shows that we've had events in the past where most of life on Earth was wiped out. There's no good answer for that I mean, the only answer that gravitational theorists can have is one of collision The problem there is, and I talk about the dinosaurs having been wiped out by a collision. It's not sufficient because dinosaurs today could not exist they could not lift themselves off the ground they're just too heavy. Right! You know just engineering wise the ones with long necks wouldn't be able to lift their necks because even a steel girder

49:58 with the weight that they had in that neck and head of theirs, it would bend under the weight. So the Earth's gravity changed. Now you can't do that just by smacking things together. Of course! And it was fairly selective too I think there is even talk now that heavier ones died out first well this is kind of thing to expect Also, the mega-flora � we had huge trees and ferns at the time. They're plants that are adapted to infrared light.

50:36 All of these things tie together, you know. This is the reason that I'm fairly confident talking about it even when it sounds like complete science fiction! All of these tiny aspects fit and if anyone wants to look at the story in detail that's required to check these things out... I recommend Dorothy Cardona's Star Series which are available on our website of course Thunderbolts.info Perfect, and that brings up a curious question because you talk about us having memories of these massive changes in the human record. Does this model affect the way we should think about the age of things like the Earth and the solar system? The galaxy and even the universe itself? Absolutely! That's a good question. The radioactive dating was grasped with both hands by geologists when it became available because it allowed them to become

51:33 not just a descriptive science, but what they thought hard science because they could put numbers on things. But unfortunately and this is the case when you have specialization each group of specialists mislead the others as to the extent of their understanding and knowledge. The astronomers misled the particle physicists who looked at half-lives of radioactive elements by saying, you know the solar system was four and a half billion years old. They don't know that! That's just an estimate. Right? No one was there... The geologists, oh sorry the particle physicists then led the geologists into thinking that their radioactive decay rates fixed. In other words, if you put it in a book of standards, you have the half-life of this element is so many million years

52:26 without any thought to the actual mechanism because in particle physics there is no explanation for radioactive decay. It is just a statistical thing, you know that's something that you work out on the laboratory and then assume this is a universal constant... it's not! There's plenty of evidence that radioactive decay rates change and then also comes back to another aspect of the Electric Universe but Then the assumption on the part of the geologists is that the astronomers told them that the solar system has been like Newtonian clockwork for billions of years. All of the bad stuff happened right up, you know very close to the beginning all the collisions and accretions and all that kind of stuff because the radioactive decay dating method relies on the Earth having been a closed system if there's any disturbance

53:22 major disturbance to the composition of the material on the Earth, then the dating system is reset. The clock's either broken or it hasn't been working for a while. And that assumption, of course when Velikovsky came along his work just showed that can't be substantiated because he has evidence of massive interference in the biosphere and of the Earth. So, radioactive dating ... The radiocarbon dating also makes various assumptions so that you have to be very careful in using it but as for the long-term dating of things like when the dinosaurs lived and so on ... You can practically forget that!

54:12 Well said, man. I love it! And uh...I guess our time is about up. Amazing stuff there's so much more we didn't even get to hopefully we can do it again sometime of course David is great at what he does but I think your side of things is more convincing for me personally So I'm glad that I could get you on before we go Please remind people where they can follow-up on these ideas and find the best resources for digging deeper into what you're doing Well, our main resource is Thunderbolts.info There you will find ways of getting involved yourself there's a forum there are means of donating since it's a charitable structure also we have regular

54:53 pictures of the day with very good commentary on the latest scientific news from the Electric Universe point-of-view and we have YouTube videos which cover those things sometimes in a bit more detail, and by a number of different scholars who are now joining with us in this adventure. And it's the greatest adventure I can imagine! Amen, man. Excellent! Well I do love what you're doing keep pushing it you're one of the great minds of our time and take care yourself out there Thanks Greg for the opportunity You got it

55:29 Wow guys, Wall Thornhill dropping knowledge like it's hot to the touch. I really do love this Electric Universe paradigm but...I still have a hard time trying to walk some of my friends through the idea of The Saturn Sun Switch They just look at me like i'm crazy and I personally am still not really satisfied with the explanation Of The Transition and how humanity survived. I've read the books, I've seen the documentaries Wall's proto-Saturn presentation is awfully good but it seems like a bit of leap of faith and wishful thinking to me. And I like the idea, I want it to be true but for me there's just a little grey area still But there is so much indoctrination and so much of our upbringing and education channels the way we think So what can you do?

56:16 I am always pleased though when i have an intelligent scientifically minded person leave the door open for hollow planets. I do love that and im glad we got to it early on again wishful thinking, I cant claim with any certainty that the earth is hollow but for some of the legends and stories I enjoy to be believable there has to be a scientific basis there somewhere even if were just talking about massive underground caverns rather than the full-blown balls to the wall inner sun extreme. And see, skeptics call that confirmation bias as if I'm not able to separate what i'd like to be true from what the evidence seems is most likely they're not mutually exclusive and if I had scientist after scientists say dude let it go! The data is pretty conclusive on this...I would let it go but so many people smarter than me think it could be possible Brooks Agnew Eric Dollard

57:12 Dean Dominic DeLucia, David Talbot and Wal Thornhill. And even Alexander Koltivan leaves that door open I know we are dealing with a fringe subset of thinkers on THC but i think we get more yays than nays which is exciting And I know before this show has even been up for an hour, if you guys go to the YouTube comments or the comment section on the Higher Side Chats website. I'm very willing to bet that you will see comments that say, I can't trust this guy he's just another NASA shill He doesn't see the truth about the flat earth. I guarantee those comments will be there and i can say that in this wrap-up because I doubt they even got this far

57:52 But we need a little bit of discernment with these kind of things and I don't think wall can be dismissed like that. And it's obvious NASA is hiding things and manipulating people's thoughts and knowledge about our environment, but if i'm being genuine I think the secrets NASA keeps are much more likely to be covering up the Electric Universe rather than the Flat Earth. And I've seen some damn good flat earth arguments Marty Leeds who I love in respect has put out a few videos of his research and he's firmly in that camp now. But when I think about major areas of cover-up and how they could relate, i see a clear picture forming around torsion field physics which is this inner tube or donut shaped field of energy that some say is the key to limitless energy well how can we complete the picture if we acknowledge that a big part of the big conspiracy is energy grid control

58:42 We can start simple and take the Tesla piece and fit that in there, that he was marginalized and suppressed. Then we can take the UFO piece where they can't acknowledge UFOs because they use this type of technology and there's a heavy quarantine around anything related to this energy disclosure. Then you have the education system and NASA purposefully compartmentalizing sciences so nobody puts it all together perpetuating CERN and what they're doing holding people like Stephen Hawking up on high as long as he keeps talking about black holes and gravity and leaving the electrical component out of it. And that's if he is not just a literal puppet for the reality shapers or worse some advanced sentient AI

59:22 You know, I used to file that in with the creepy conspiracies that probably are a bit of stretch but let's dig deeper into this Stephen Hawking thing. Think about the influence in todays scientific community that Hawking has. Now if the mainstream paradigm is a lie or heavily flawed in places where Wal Thornhill sees it why doesn't Stephen? If he's being intellectually honest from that I get the impression that he isn't He's a god-like, infallible authority. That's how he is treated. That's the pedestal the system puts him on And so what, you might say? Well if they're going to give someone such a position of authority in an area like the forefront of modern science will they really leave that up to chance or would it be advantageous to have a vegetable of man in a chair whose speak and spell computer can be programmed to say anything you might want it to say. Oh how the elites mouths must water over such a proposition!

1:00:18 But are there any supporting facts? Well, it turns out there might be. Do you guys realize that he's seriously THE person who has lived with ALS the longest?! Yeah! What a coincidence right!? I've looked this up and several sources will tell you that the great majority of time a person with ALS is diagnosed in their 50s and is dead within about 5 years Stephen Hawking is 74 years old. So they say here let me just read this it basically hits all the points it's from newser.com which I've never really heard of but this isn't the only site saying these kind of things, this is just the most succinct

1:00:59 It's appropriately titled, How Has Stephen Hawking Lived with ALS for 52 Years? Experts call the 74-year old physicist's long term survival extraordinary. An ALS patient's life expectancy averages just 2 to 5 years after diagnosis and only about five percent make it past 20 years, the ALS Association notes But Steven has beaten the odds and lived with his motor neuron disease for 52 years, and no one's sure why. Though some experts suggest factors that may have increased his lifespan in today's Washington Post, scientists also don't know for certain what causes ALS in general and are studying genetic and environmental links the CDC notes. Yeah trust them

1:01:44 But although the underlying reasons for Hawking's long-term survival are unclear, scientists' thoughts on it aren't. Quote, he is exceptional. Neurology professor Nigel Lay told the British Medical Journal in 2002 I am not aware of anyone else who has survived with ALS as long Now 2002, the guy said that 14 years ago. Man you'd think with Stephen Hawking's bright mind he might apply it to something more personal I guess he has no interest in why he is the anomaly for ALS Hmm okay okay What also makes Hawking's case unusual is that he was informed of his illness so young. The average age for diagnosis is 55, though Hawking's early onset may have helped him in the long run. Survival in younger patients is strikingly better and it has measured in many years—in some cases more than 10." Oh well… In some cases people live more than ten years so... Stephen Hawking living 52 years with ALS? Nothing to see here! Makes me wonder.

1:02:47 So that's creepy. And to add fuel to the fire, there was a time in 1985 where he was so far gone that doctors told his wife it might be time to shut off life support machines. That would have been when he was in his mid-40s –a much more reasonable time for your average ALS victim to die– but he recovered and promptly finished his book A Brief History of Time and the rest is history right? how lucky we are to have such a brilliant scientific mind be so accurate about space, the universe and reality. But anyway I was in the middle of trying to piece together a puzzle here you got torsion fields free energy UFO's false idols like S-Hawks here and then you have the shape of the earth itself as possibly a torsion field shape a donut basically a ball with holes at the poles

1:03:35 Now, I'm definitely speculating but i see a through line between all these points that really make sense. And if I had to put my money on something it would probably be that these are the big secrets about space not that it doesn't exist and the earth is flat Let's add to this pile too the idea of the firmament, that we are in a type of shell or bubble. A very popular idea for the people of the ancient past and the people of the flat earth community. Could the people in the past have been trying to describe this plasma bubble of Saturn? Is it possible that without the scientific terms to explain it they called this cocoon, this envelope, the firmament? I don't know but I could see it

1:04:17 I do think one glaring hole here to be intellectually honest and play devil's advocate a bit about the Electric Universe, and of course Walls' explanations aren't bad or wrong but if we really have this type of space observation where led to believe we do why have we never seen a system in the formations described by The Electric Universe Model? Why don't we have one single example where we can look at it and say See that planet in the plasma cocoon of star 2x119? Earth's system was like that at one time. You know, there are no examples whatsoever! That sobers me up a bit on this topic I gotta be honest but Wahls point is that we can't see through these plasma envelopes Okay, that is a fair point. I know it's difficult But we can't find a single example anywhere

1:05:09 I think that is what we need for me to really be satisfied here and even if we can't see through it, were told that we see stars form and explode. We've identified hundreds of systems out there thousands have we ever seen one star discharge to another? That doesn't require us to see through anything you know but this is a process in like many things we just don't have the smoking gun yet And it's not a closed case so don't think I'm shitting on the idea but i do hope we find that type of validation soon because I really want to be sure about some of these things. Great stuff though, for me Wahls scientific side of things is more convincing than David Talbott mythology and cave art side both important complementary sides of the coin but if I had to say what moves my needle further It would be a show more like today's

1:05:59 Love them both though and I hope you find it interesting along with all the implications and threads that I think something like this ties together. But that is going to be it for the month, we made it! And I did a better job with the timing of episodes I think. Really not a weak spot in this months lineup in my honest opinion, I don't always achieve my vision for the show, but if someone was asking what a near perfect month looked like to me it would be something like April 2016. A good diet and health related show Dr Richard Jacobi sugar and nerves then a pretty unique show with Alexander Koltepin and Sylvia Ivanova translating

1:06:40 James Corbett and the Rockefeller oil story, a good Conspiracy 101 refresher. Gotta have it there! Ed Haslam with Dr Mary's Monkey and the history behind the polio vaccine talk about a mind blower And Wal Thornhill with the scientific side of the Electric Universe. The perfect icing on the higher-side cake, I would say! That is a lineup there's many guests that i've had that I love but if you're talking about the month by month package this one does it for me Diverse, everyone has experience or evidence to back up their perspective to a healthy degree I'd say. Everyone made good convincing cases for their work Big thanks to all of them! Right? Give it up

1:07:25 And I'll have a little more to say in the THC newsletter. Sign up for free at TheHigherSideChats.com or on the THC Facebook page, comes out on the first of every month and i'll clue you in on a show I got coming up in May as well as my thoughts on the episodes we've done and a couple other things But May, another lineup I think is going to be very solid. There's one i'm a little sketchy on you know I try to shoot you straight so there is one I have concerns on the publisher sent me the book and I was kind of like eh but I think we can make it interesting I promise So trust me I try not to let you down too often

1:08:05 So sign up for PLUS if you haven't. Five extra hours with these guys on top of the archive should be well worth it, but if you can't do that maybe just share the show or give it a review as a showing of appreciation or just keep listening that's really the important thing this is my bread and butter but I'm not here to talk your ear off about things you already know So with that I'm gonna get out of here. And now I declare this meeting of the Midnight Society closed, your move Stephen Hawking string pullers and sealer's of the secret sciences... Your fucking move! Lucid dreams are so vivid, cause you go to bed at seven And your brain comes alive because you hate your nine-to-five You wake up with a dread and make sure your cats are fed Did your brain talk to a ghost who moved your coffee and toast As you listen to the higher side chats

1:08:57 You get to your desk and your boss says it's a mess And your soul slowly goes To a place where nothing grows When you think he's not around, you insert a SETI sound The OM says turn it down and you say It's just the higher side chats Oh do you think you'd be invited? To Bohemia Grove. To a Bilderberg club Do you think you'd be invited Buy a Rothschild to a party on a submarine Diving down To the center of the earth Through the Marianas Trench Your teeth begin to clench From the sulfurous stench The mask you're given doesn't fit Because you're not one of them