THC 76: Wendy Tremayne | Going Off The Grid, Sustainable Living, & Burning Man

00:04 We're here because we don't buy into the bullshit of mainstream culture. We're tired of the mundane, passionless careers that have been shuffled into as a result of this orchestrated debt-based system of rule and the stranglehold on education and entertainment by cold soulless corporations People yes, we are frustrated Yes, we are tired And we reject the brave rube tranquilizers that are Monday Night Football and an ice cold Budweiser But we have to stop hiding Stop hiding behind the headphones and the Cherry Popper 420 username. Let the world see that resistance is strong, and society is changing." There was a time to be anonymous but that time has passed And so The Hireside Chats would like present conspirities as the dawning of this new paradigm in uniform revolution Because bold fashion should mean more than some celebrity meat dresser frat boy in a silly pink polo

00:52 Conspiratease redefines bold fashion as having the balls to reject socially uncomfortable and unpopular truths from your radiant chest. All fucking day. conspiratese.net Let them know that you know Bold designs for troubled times Hard Truths Softcock In the 1930s, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed a nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the Fireside Chats. His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times but we're far from 1930 and I deal with a different kind of fire For a new era of worldly frustration We offer a fresh conversation! I'm Greg Carlwood These are The Hireside Chats

01:43 How's it going, Hireside Chatters? Welcome to another powerful show. Drinking a little drink, smoking a little smoke! From sunny San Diego I'm Greg Carlwood and people we all know the largest aspect of the big conspiracy is manipulation and complete control of the population The elite try to dress up our enslavement with flashing lights in pretty colors but their reality is that we've had our dreams goals and actions hijacked by green paper And these sorcerers of the system have casted spell of servitude To which we measure our sense of worth And this power structure has all but guaranteed your participation by limiting your options, controlling your education and applying just enough pressure to convince you that there's no time to think about anything other than your pace on the never-ending treadmill of capitalism. It's a damn shame people! Today we're going to examine one of the possible alternatives you've been denied by mainstream culture and today's guest was bold enough to turn in her life as a creative director at New York City marketing firm and distance herself from monetary monster

02:39 in exchange for a sustainable life and an off-the-grid community, mastering the art of making things she once bought. She's the author of The Good Life Lab Radical Experiments in Hands on Living her name is Wendy Tremaine it's a pleasure to have or share little over knowledge with us today when they welcome to show Hey Greg, thanks. That was a really nice description of what you guys are about! I'm like so impressed! Oh thanks thanks um well i'm really appreciative of you being here sometimes you know I daydream about this whole off the grid sustainable living lifestyle weighing the pros and cons the sacrifices against the freedoms and I really admire anyone who's had the guts to do it because I don't

03:19 Well, thank you. I was just talking to someone the other day and they were like it seems so hard doing all this stuff And I was like really because going to work every day seems a lot harder to me Right and I'm kind of right at that crossroads I mean sometimes think if it is like we've all grown up in prison cells with the door wide open But everybody's just afraid of what's outside because they're just familiar with the surroundings So they'd rather just stay in the cage It's funny, isn't it? Oh. It's kind of sad but yeah I do feel that way You know, I actually just got back from San Diego or back to San Diego from st. Louis I went home for my 10-year high school reunion and it was a blast but I ran into a lot of people that say I'm like hey man haven't talked you in forever How's life? What's new and you get the same response all not much just working man And it's so sad It's sad to hear that be the summary of someone's entire decade and then they don't think about changing things, you know

04:13 I hear you. You know, I've been living in New Mexico about 10 years since I quit my job and did this whole change but I've been on tour with my book so i'm going all over the place and as I go out into the world I just see like the working poor people with really good jobs like hey! I am an editor and I am a this and they are great things What they talk about there when they speak about their lives It's all about like the things they don't have time to do the projects They wish they could get involved in the giant commute. It's like the Justifications and it's like wow, that's the working for yeah land of the free isn't it? Madness you know But let's talk about your journey You know when did you start thinking about making such a radical alternative change in lifestyle I

05:01 Well, you know admittedly I always kind of had an allergy to the commodification of culture. Um...I did like in high school I went into a very middle class Long Island suburban high school and um the kids were like competitive over brands and clothing and all these things that had to do with status and none of us had a job yet but they knew who they should hang out with And so even back then I was like very sensitive to it and I thought everybody was kind of sick and I didn't understand why I wasn't.

05:39 But I tried, like I went into the rat race and was like okay let's do it. And I really really tried and I just found it so utterly unfair. I did not like employers asking me to lie for them as part of my job. I didn't like tolerating not being treated well at times. I just really never felt motivated by money to be honest. And I didn't want a change Yeah, it's super tough and I think there is a lot of fear around it probably because I've heard you say before and I completely agree that people just don't know how to take care of themselves. Yeah! It's weird isn't it? I mean...I don't know if this is true but I like to think about this stuff and my whole life I'm noticing people very nervous right we have all these like nervous conditions now and people are taking drugs for

06:35 And I think maybe, on a really deep level we kind of know that the knowledge we've amassed is all acculturated knowledge. So like how to run the media and how to be on the internet and it's all this civilization But we kind of know, we don't know how to light a match without... I mean light fire without a match and grow a tomato and actually live in nature. And I think our nervous systems can't tolerate it because we need to know that we know how to live." You know? Yeah, when you said it made so much sense to me and I've even thought about going to like a survival school because I mean I am a huge meat eater but of course people in modern society don't kill their own meat. It's kind of weird but i feel like I should have to have that experience you know I should have to kill an animal and skin it and eat it sounds as gross as it sounds to me its so foreign that we don't do that is part the process

07:36 Yeah, and I wonder Greg how you feel about this but...I'm a woman so i can't say it. But I often wonder about the male conundrum in our time like isn't there part of you guys that really wants to go out and hunt that animal? Yeah! There's a Carlin routine where he calls at the pussification of the American male like yeah we can provide for ourselves were just house cats any other that is a little bit unsettling Ouch, the pacification. Oh my God! Strong words It's some weird stuff I know...I feel for you guys all the time actually Well you know something i've always been interested in is Burning Man and that was kind of got you kinda on that path right? What do they do there

08:22 Yeah, it did. Well have you been? I want to ask first Oh! I haven't been...I've been to some like something called the Symbiosis Gathering Some little festival type things but that's the crown jewel and i haven't made it there yet But uh..it seems pretty fascinating Well, it is. And I think why it's important in our time and I do think it is important is we don't have another context like that so we only live in one context and you can call at the default world. It's like the civilization that we built and we live in But when you go to Burning Man, you're in a wonder world. You're in a city, a real city with everything from opera to hair salons to ice cream trucks to cafes and yoga.

09:10 And it's a city and it functions really well, and it has no economy. It's a gift economy. And it is so utterly different from the default world that what it does is it like triggers you in ways this world can't and never will because it's different. When you get triggered every time we do there's a discovery like oh wow I didn't know I was Oh, wow. I didn't realize I cared about this and you realize you're like so many new things You never knew So it's really like a process of discovery And then on the other hand It has a tendency to be like a reset button for people where you go to Burning Man everything becomes so clear and you see all the ways you're full of shit in your regular life

09:57 And it's not untypical what I did. I got back from Burning Man, I dumped my career, I got a divorce, I learned to be a yoga teacher which wasn't even on my map before you know? So I would say run don't walk this is like the living model of Atlantis in our time Yeah, it's really interesting. The gift economy... I've heard it explained to me before as like you have to produce something and then it's a barter system Is that accurate or is that too simplistic of a view? It's actually not accurate for a specific reason. So barter in the United States is technically taxable and only a gift is not, so it's very important at Burning Man and they're always trying to remind the culture there that barter is not acceptable. That's not what a gift economy is giving has to be a gift with no expectation in return

10:56 Huh and and through that system I guess because you're dealing with like-minded people everyone seems to get their needs provided for Yeah, so you know what happens is it becomes competitive gifting? So by the end of the week. You're like no more don't give me anything Like I have to take this crap home But while you're in the city, what it feels like at the experiential level is that every camp and everything you see is for you. It's meant for you to enter, go into touch and take what you need. That can be really disorienting at first

11:39 Yeah, I can imagine. But it sounds so cool! I definitely want to try it out. In your book what seems to be a pretty big turning point is you made the pledge to stop making decisions based on money. How radical of change was that? That was like the key moment really. Actually, I got back from Burning Man In 2002, I think it was my second year there. And I literally drove across country and I just pulled into New York City and five hours later the World Trade Center dropped! And I'm like still covered in playa dust you know this like dust that you pick up all over yourself from being a Burning Man. And I look in Manhattan and everybody else is covered in dust now but a different dust

12:26 And it was totally cryptic and I knew at that moment that this was like the symbol, you know. There's not one minute more I'm going to make a decision based on money because it's stupid! So um...I didn't know what that would mean but um..I just let that be like a mantra of what does it mean to not base myself on money? It led me to do a lot of weird stuff. You know, I quit a great career And I moved to New Mexico. Tell me a little bit more about that actual journey, the journey to New Mexico? I mean, I'm sure there were some big self-realizations involved with that, some logistical problems you had to sort through...

13:07 You know, it's kind of easier than you'd think. I think the harder thing really like the harder thing is to go from rural America into a city because you just have to like upcycle your nervous system and just start adapting but when you go the other way it's I think a lot easier. You're going from needing a ton of money to needing very little. You're going from having no time to having nothing but time You know, life opens up and spreads out and it becomes spacious. And you have time to like gather your thoughts and figure out what you really want and just do whatever your heart has a whim for. We did that but we applied it too

13:49 living. So, you know we went to New Mexico and said okay I'm not gonna buy it i gotta make it let's start with shelter roof over our head then we went to power then to fuel and eventually down to domestic goods um so really i think the difficulty of the move is just making it just doing it we didn't overthink it and then believing that you're actually capable of making all this stuff which you are That's a big thing for me just coming off this high school reunion and most of my friends have kids which you know that's its own thing but they most, most of them have houses. And I'm living here in San Diego and i'm like man houses here are $1 million dollars 10% is 100 thousand dollars um... I don't see myself having that sitting in the bank anytime soon so I've thought about

14:38 shortcuts to get ahead, or making a shelter. Maybe buying land and building a house. This papercrete was pretty interesting. Are there techniques for building that you think people could utilize if they knew more about them? You know, definitely. So you know there what you're describing Greg is like the common problem it's like okay I'm either gonna have like a million dollar mortgage in a densely populated area or I'm gonna live in like a rural area and potentially I think people worry miss out on culture and Live cheaply so just starting with that for a minute my rents in New York City when I left was $3300 a month for my apartment

15:25 And my home today in New Mexico, my taxes a year are $300. So the first thing I just want to point out is do you know how easy it is to make that and like all the rest is free time? That's the equation. You have to choose so out here You know again not wanting to live based on money to me it seemed logical to look at the way stream we're sitting on a pile of surplus that is the largest in history and world there's more free materials out there then you could possibly imagine.

16:05 So for me, I found paper. We had a recycling center down the street they collected paper but they pushed it to New Mexico's landfill so I was able to get it for free build a mixer turn it back into a slurry. add some ingredients like a little cement and actually build domes that are housing and buildings out of paper. And it was, I was able to build a 20 foot diameter 14 foot apex dome for under $2,000. And that's a lot of square footage plus it's so insulative you don't really need heat or cooling

16:44 Wow, yeah that sounds fascinating to me. I love the idea of that um But you said something interesting about you know missing out on culture and that is a concern to me I mean have you felt marginalized at all by friends and family when you started making this transition Do you feel like you're missing out at all? I do sometimes, you know. Um...I was just in New York City and i'm a New Yorker and the grandeur of the old buildings and like the amazing venues with these amazing light and sound systems You know? I really love being impressed by that, you know And I took advantage of that stuff and I still love it The difference now is

17:24 my rhythm changed. So here is where I live, this is my base it's very very cheap and never need a job here just do what I want then because I live so cheaply I do something that's like reverse vacationing most people run from the city to go on vacation in the country I live in the country and my vacation is to go to the city I save enough money by my lifestyle I can afford to go to Paris for a month and get a great apartment for a few thousand bucks, and just be like here am. I'm going to feel better now you know? So i do it that way and I find it fun to be fine um... And then the other thing is when you live in a place that's sparsely populated doesn't have a lot of culture It's kind of your obligation to bring it so I produce events, I bring musicians down You know, and I do what I can to bring it here

18:18 Yeah, that's super cool. I think a lot of people would love to get away from their jobs and reclaim some of that freedom you're talking about but they just assume the sacrifice in lifestyle would be too great. Energy running water internet... Obviously you have internet we're talking right now! Have there been any sacrifices that have been really hard on you? Let's see. Well, I mean just speaking of technology for a minute, I think it is reasonable to point out this is really different than the previous Back to the Land movement. I'm like very technology heavy. I have you know Facebook account and Twitter and Flickr account and multiple websites. I have an online store

19:01 I couldn't do this without technology and most of what I figured out how to make came from a YouTube tutorial. So, you know that's really really relevant and different from people who did this in the 60s but as far as stuff that I missed that just really hurts Funny enough, I think the thing that um, I miss most is a little bit of competition creative competition Yeah, so like you know if you're in New York San Francisco Maybe have it in San Diego There's like always been like an underworld of art people who are creatively competing with each other and everyone's getting bigger smarter better And I miss that edge

19:45 Douglass. Yeah, that's interesting they say they say that's a byproduct of capitalism but I always have thought you know i like being somewhat entrepreneurial I enjoy looking at it as a game not necessarily means of survival and so if needs were met I still think great deal people would participate in our egos would facilitate who wants to work on the new smartphone than everyone wants whether was given away or charged for I do think that competition would still exist on a greater scale but You know, obviously yeah it's gonna be less important when you don't need to do that. I think you're right! I think about that too Greg. A lot of people when you talk about we don't need a monetary system they get really panicky and get nervous and one of the things i hear a lot because I do talk about is what about the people who are lazy and don't contribute?

20:41 And I think that's really silly. Like, if you could imagine a world without money where everyone does just what they want trust themselves to do whatever they want and believe that that is going to be the best thing for society wouldn't it be like the saddest thing in the world? To have someone who doesn't know what to do You would stop and try to help them figure it out because he or she would be so impoverished So, I don't think we'd be mad at the lazy. That would be sad and we want to help them. I agree with you and sometimes when i'm trying to reach the conservative republican type who thinks that the biggest share of their taxes is going to welfare which is of course not true but when i'm trying to reach that kind a person I say you know the best thing for your safety to protect what you want which is really what your concerned with would be to give everyone a basis

21:38 better than jail. Because when it's not, they're gonna come for your stuff! You know? I try to appeal to them in that way It's like help yourself by giving everybody a basic need that's better than going to prison because either they're gonna get your money and get away or They're gonna get a meal tonight and a bed to sleep in...in jail You know, I think you said a mouthful there. It sounds like you've had the same thought. Crime is often a reasonable person making the smartest decision in the moment for their best interest and when they have no other option that common sense decision is actually the smartest thing they can do it just doesn't affect you in a good way right?

22:21 Exactly. I mean, one of the most powerful parts of your book to me is you know You found yourself in jail for doing some protesting and you said do an african-american guard Do you realize your civil rights were won by people willing to protest and fight for him? And he just says well in a few more years I'll get my pension and that is such a great example Of a massive disconnect from what's important it's crazy. I know I mean again, you know if people don't like to hear this but Whether they know it or not, I see the same thing coming from the previous generations who basically were probably the only generations who are going to get these pensions and all these payoffs. Basically for giving the world over to industry and not bitching about it so that they get their payoff right? But the generations behind them, me we're totally screwed because the worlds been given away. They don't need to give us a bonus anymore

23:17 We just are stuck in what's left. So, you know my dad who is 85 can get a hip replacement for free because he had that pension but I'm in my 40s and I can't get a pap smear. I thought I was going to be here for awhile." You know? And that's if these corporations and stuff even honor the pensions and honor the things they're supposed to be given Indeed my dad was so locked solid that his pension can never be touched and then a few years later just recently we're seeing the pensions disappear. And again, I think this takes us right to that black and white moment of you've either got civilization or you've got nature. Those are the only two worlds we have and one of them is actually abundant and can take care of you and the other can't. It just puts you in this weird game that you'll never win

24:11 You mentioned the technology aspect and that was a real reason why I chose you to talk about this kind of stuff because i have friends who've tried to go to off-grid communities and they just left kinda with their tails between their legs like, I can't live like that. I want a blending of the two somewhat and y'know I thought hearing your interviews it sounds like thats what you do, you know? You and your partner are pretty tech savvy like you said How were you able Keep your energy going. I mean energies got to be a huge thing I mean for especially if you want to have some of those luxuries that we're used to Yeah, so we're off-grid You know when we left New York We had a little bit of a nest egg and we pretty much threw the whole thing at PV solar So we're off grid and we keep a bank of batteries here And basically, you know, we just started switching because of it from

25:04 like two cycle gas engines to things that run on batteries. We became very battery oriented and of course because we're trying also not to be any longer part of the problem, we realized batteries are probably one of the worst toxic contributions to the landfill so we tried to satisfy that some way by creating a circuit board and a device that desulfates batteries So, we're on our second model now actually and it's a little device that you can hook up to any type of battery multiple at a time. And you can just take batteries out of the trash out of the dumpsters and revivify them and that sort of solves that loop but it's a great example of using technology to live a modern homesteading life

25:51 That's probably the hardest thing for me. I'm trying to slowly eliminate some bills, you know? Eliminate cable as long as I have internet... You can't really do anything about electricity or fuel costs unless you're really willing to commit to that alternative lifestyle but turning everything over to batteries is that what kind of difficulties did you face now was there a huge learning curve in figuring all that stuff out Well, you know again when you have nothing but time it just becomes like interest. You know like okay great I'm learning about electricity and learning about power this is super interesting and it wasn't a big learning curve solar is very simple and really once its set up there's pretty much no maintenance other than refilling batteries with distilled water so it's a real easy jump

26:40 And, and you're right when you mentioned like electric and fuel that would be the second biggie. You need time and you have to choose. So, you're either going to buy it at the pump or you're gonna make it and if you make it, you need time. The biodiesel that we produce here for our cars which are just diesel engine cars that we didn't convert costs us about 50 cents a gallon to make. It's from waste vegetable oils so local restaurants and it takes about three to five hours a week which isn't bad. No!

27:16 I've seen YouTube videos and stuff about converting your vehicle, and I've just kind of wondered about their credibility if it really was that easy. It's something I thought about doing Well i would recommend not converting so I've done both I converted an old Mercedes diesel So I can run straight waste vegetable oil. I found problematic there is alot of clogs in the lines and you're always troubleshooting and a million filter changes because that fuel is so heavy But I found it easier to make biodiesel and not convert the car and run it straight into your diesel So the only difference there is when you get waste vegetable oil You add methanol and lye, and you clean it yourself. And it's something you do in a five-gallon plastic tote It's not like a big deal. You don't need like a manufacturing setup

28:05 Right on. Yeah, it's worth it! It sounds like it would be I mean another thing that scares people is if you're going to live without money you're not gonna have medical benefits or there's a fear of not being able to get help if your sicker injured and has that been a concern at times? You were injured pretty early on right Sure, yeah. That definitely is and it's a biggie I'll tell you what we're doing And I think this is really about what stage of life you're in and how old you are and stuff like that but So we were working well first of all I was never the kind of person who was buying into the

28:41 medical system that we currently have. Yeah, so I was never going to like let someone put me on a prescription for the rest of my life or do unnecessary surgeries. I don't consider myself a billing cycle. So I was opting out anyway and kind of taking health into my own hands. That being said working with power tools building a homestead and I was like well why don't I take my arm off? I really want someone to put it back on! So, my partner Mikey and I just carry Catastrophic which is anything that costs more than $5,000 is covered. And that's great because okay we'll pay five grand on something big but nothing big can ever destroy our lives and put us into debt

29:25 So, that costs us about $100 to $150 a month each. And then the supplements we consider our health care or garden living in a place that has no industry and pollution you know we just try to really take care of ourselves A big part of the conspiracy community, they fear economic collapse or a police state type crackdown and you know they see it as a real possibility but they're still marching along towards the cliff with everyone else. And that's kind of where I look at things like this and i see what you're doing and I'm like man that is... You know? I need to do that before it's too late! Do you feel like you've created a life that operates outside those concerns Or at least that your better prepared if something like that were to occur

30:09 I like to think that a little bit. And, you know I thought to myself wow if there was a problem and the military was really moving in and blah blah blah. The first compound they would take and make their own is mine because it's true they would take it five minutes so what's the benefit that I really have? It's knowledge like I built this thing, I know how it works

30:52 And that's what I get to take away with me and they can take it if they want it, but the more valuable thing is what I have inside. So you know, I'm a lot of people's apocalyptic plan friends in cities are like, I'm going to your house when it hits the fan! Um...I think what's more important is this way of living It calms our nervous system to know we know how to take care of ourselves. So your day-to-day quality of life is calm You're not in a panic what if what if and I guess to me that's the greater benefit Who knows? What's gonna happen or how long it's gonna take but if you feel good every day that matters, right And I think so many people don't a friend of mine said something I thought was pretty

31:38 Poetic and we were walking around just doing some people watching he's like, you know The only people that are smiling or in advertisements and I was like, oh that's so sad But Oh Greg. That's what I miss most people watching yeah It can be fun it's a good lot of cautionary tales out there of how not to how not to be but You went into this thing without a ton of handyman skills or a lot of building experience from what I understand. You've just developed these skills along the way, right? What are some of the most impressive skills you've learned throughout this change?" Yeah, it's true when we left New York We had a soldering iron and I we had a sewing machine that both of us could like barely use And you know there's a cute little illustration in the book and I don't want to downplay it It's really important But I think this the first step is you have to get used to just starting stuff even though You don't know how and that could be hard because you know especially corporate world. We're all sort of

32:39 I'm pumped toward this unreasonable expectation of perfection, right? So you just have to start and then you're going to break it. You're gonna get it wrong and you have to just accept that that's kind of messy and fun but in New York I had like three or four skills. I was in marketing. I could tell you what I did like a minute And now I have like so many skills. I couldn't tell you about it if we sat at a fire all night, but some of them are making botanical medicines growing food and processing it doing the home fabrication. So Mikey in particular is printing his own circuit boards and building actual widgets from start to finish

33:24 We do a lot of filtering for biofuel, for water, for beverages. I've done some building which includes plumbing electric insulation wood and metal work textile work sewing silk screening. I know a lot about batteries and power! So, yeah. And you know I'm not great at all those things but I am good enough that I can have a life of my own and not need help you know? Yeah thats one the most interesting aspects to me is just developing those skills and its hard to really imagine unlimited time or control your time that way to just sit down and learn because even from since kindergarten

34:09 8 hours a day, 5 days a week is taken from you and you learn at five years old that's just the way it's going to be forever. You might get lucky and get one of those jobs where you have to work less but for most people thats the way its gonna be so its really hard to imagine being able to sit down and tinker with stuff It sounds so appealing just to have those skills. Because I think you're right, in the nervous system you know that if your car breaks down in the desert you're probably going to die. If a system collapses, you've probably got two days before you're going to die. It's kind of... it's a messed up way to live that dependency!

34:48 I'm curious, Greg. If you were just freed of everything you have to do right now what would be the tinkering thing that you'd want to take on? What have you always wanted to do? I think for me the thing that I find most interesting or fun to work out is energy if i could power everything that I enjoy on my own off the grid because I feel like that's one of those shackles that you really can't get around it and a lot off-grid communities, you know It's just something they don't have. You know They just deal without it rather than implementing it and I couldn't do it without So if I could really harness solar and really harness energies that were sustainable, I think that would be most interesting to me

35:30 Yeah, I'm sure you'd have fun doing it. I am always fascinated when I talk to people like stockbrokers and whatever, people of all different careers they all have a secret thing like, �I really just want to be an electrician.� That's so funny! It is or i really just wanna be a bike messenger and shoot snot rocket. in a middle-class lifestyle and you know I really think if i could just do the other two things and not make money from them or barely make enough to pay for that extreme insurance, phone plan and the few things I wouldn't want to do without. I'd be way happier! And I'm kind of in that transitionary area but um...I think a lot of people need to get out of mindset that your passion is probably not going to bring you as much income

36:32 the nine-to-five job's gonna be, but you're gonna get back what you put into it and you're gonna get it back in time and freedom and pride. You're going to have some pride because a lot of people don't care about what they are doing on their 9-5 job It is true Yeah I think your really right I'm thinking about the part where you said that we might not make as much money And I think there something in there that everyone could take a moment to look at which is You know, the rise and fall of markets and the swings of money are so bizarre. And they used to make sense like oh there was no rain in Florida so their oranges went up but now it's so convoluted because you know money is being made on like weird models and trickery and financing tricks yeah

37:22 You know, when you're saving money do you really feel like your saving something stable and secure? Because I didn't. And when I switched over from saving money to putting that money into tools that i could use to make stuff...I thought I had something more reliable than what I had cash. Yeah! That's a great point too. Something I've thought about is doing this kind of transition and Some of the cynical ones, they have this impression that you're not really going to get your freedom back. You're gonna get your time but you're gonna spend all that time trying to make build and and get the things we already have. We talked about spending time sitting there in tinkering with things do you feel like you have more free times at a fallacy? You probably have more freetime than you ever did but do you feel like he spent a lot of it doing hard labor

38:18 It's a great question. So if you think about it logically, the answer is there. It's like you're not going to build your house twice You're not going to set up your PV solar twice. Right? True! You are gonna make fuel every week and you are gonna clear garden every single day, but like for me I didn't it took years for me to learn how to sew because I had bigger stuff to do first. I had a build privacy while I'd build buildings But I'm never gonna do those things again now I just maintain them doesn't take that much time to do that so as the years pass my free time increases exponentially and i get to do more of the kind of labor that's like whimsy and fun but to be honest the thing I worry most about in my life is that labor should ever end because I realize my happiness is very much in being in a rhythm

39:15 And that rhythm has to include labor. I see that firsthand and if anyone ever took labor away from me and just like did it for me, I would be really unhappy so I'm glad there's always another project. I'm building a bike rack or building new outdoor shower. Like I never want that to end." That's an interesting perspective how as far as conveniences like showers and plumbing? How do you deal with those is that a big stretch from what's conventional Yeah, my view changed wildly on these things I never thought I'd be saying this but um I'm desperate to shut off all the toilets in the house and get rid of them. I don't want them anymore Yep, I think they're really stupid And I am this year is my main goal is to get an outdoor human or set up an outdoor bathroom that just compost Plumbing a stupid

40:10 I don't want to fix toilets my whole life. You know, I don't want to be involved in it. Toilets are really pain in the ass and expensive and it doesn't make sense to lock yourself in a small room and like use it that way And it doesn't make sense to flush drinking water you know like it's crazy So I'd much rather Be outside in a cool room that I design really well Yeah, so plumbing's really a pain. I already disconnected my showers and I bathe outside exclusively and have for years but I do have the benefit of having hot mineral spring in my yard. That helps! Yeah, I mean I think a lot people get so attached to that privacy in those types of moments. Did you ever have a struggle with that or was it something where like the pros outweighed the cons?

41:02 Well, when I was a city girl like I definitely would have listened to myself today and said that girl's crazy. But I think anybody who showers outside after a few times or uses an outdoor bathroom they start to prefer it very quickly because it's really lovely to be outside. We're all starved of the outdoors because of our jobs. You know, it's great and you don't need a hot spring either to make hot water outdoors. You can just take any tank paint it black face itself let the sun cook at all day and have a hot shower every night. It's free yeah

41:40 Yeah, that's awesome. I love hearing those little things and you know it's funny about plumbing because there is a meme on the internet that's a photograph of some volunteer helping some African kid and he says... So let me get this straight You have refillable bowls of clean water And you shit in them? And it is so funny because people don't think about it that way like people on most A lot of third world countries would die to have a refillable bowl of water and they would not use it The way we do Yeah, I find a similar sentiment. I noticed I don't know about you but people seem to not know that the planet only has one water and like no one's ever going to bring more and it doesn't make more of itself

42:24 So there's this like, when I talk to people they think that somehow water is being rejuvenated and you know there's more being made but there isn't and never will be. So when you poop in water, you really pooped in water! That's funny. Yeah it's weird Well let's talk about food obviously foods a huge concern we haven't really talked about it seems like right now based on the book you've got some pretty fine-tuned systems for food production right? Yeah, you know like I said once you get the big stuff out of the way and get into the small. Mike and I both love being in a kitchen because it's really like a lab and the payoff is so big in health and just the sensuousness of food. So lately we're into like a lot of illegal stuff because the payoffs are really high making your own alcohol for tincture would cost me $100 a gallon to buy

43:23 organic alcohol, but you can make alcohol just with a distiller off Amazon that's meant for water. And you could make that same gallon of alcohol for five bucks. We also like fermenting so making kimchi we like making alcohol for drinking like mead and wine. We have a blast in the kitchen I hope to be growing mushrooms next year So do you do any of this at home? Do you cook it home? No, I mean my girlfriend's a she went to culinary school and she loves it But one of my big concerns with this stuff is I eat almost exclusively meat And it's so terrible and I treat my body like a garbage can and I want her You know doing a kind of off-the-grid living. It kinda has to be vegetable based just for the

44:15 The waste and the amount of energy required to eat a meat diet on your own would be pretty taxing. Well, you know what we found? Yeah. So our garden obviously is right out the door and it's easy but I get here bison that weren't even raised by anybody they're just on the open range so it's like beyond organic and yeah there'll be a hunt and everyone in town will kind of go in on it buy the animal and you know it's pretty lo-fi like someone will set up butcher shop in their backyard and everyone in town comes to get

44:51 a bison for $3.00 per pound, but again I have access to tremendously good meats like I just split a pig with somebody so my freezer is stuffed with pork and it's beyond organic it gets raised on someone's yard so you can really get meat pretty easily actually. being raided or anything? You hear stories about farmers trying to sell raw milk and they get raided and shut down like they got a big drug operation going. The system doesn't like people to have examples of successful, self-sustaining communities. Is that a concern for you ever?"

45:34 Well, we've seen some of that here. Our community started a community kitchen and by doing so they decided to take some government money and that was to help fund this kitchen. And the benefit of a community kitchen is if you cook in it what you sell is legal to resell into stores You can't do that with stuff you made at home. It's not a health-proof kitchen." So to make the long story short, once they took that money and the government was coming in looking over their investment and saying hey you guys also run the farmers market so you can have that raw milk or raw cheese or this or that...and they turned

46:13 the citizens who started The Kitchen into police that were policing their own community. And it got really ugly and it was very fracturing to our community, so my solution to that would be don't take the freaking money! Really? Now they're a big pain in the ass. Yeah I mean that brings up another question did you ever face issues and regulations like building codes and things your building or do they just not get out that far No, for sure we did. It's a little wild west out here you can get away with a lot but not everything what we did to skirt those building issues was anyone can do this so you can go to a structural engineer and say here is my crazy idea I'm going build dome out of paper and download sketch for free it will give the ability express your ideas visually in form that engineer can read

47:09 And in our case, he looked at our plans. He said I think you're overbuilding it actually. He put a stamp of approval on it and once you get that stamp, you can take that to the state record and once its there they can't turn it down. They can't stop you from building that method so thats a really nice work around for dealing with building inspectors who want to get your way That's awesome. So, it seems like you've just done so much when you started it was just you and your partner and you managed to take all these different sectors that are necessary to sustain life and just come up with all of it yourself? Well again thanks to the internet... Right huge tool

47:57 Tremendous. And you know, we network a lot of community for us is on the internet people where we live are not necessarily technical or modern in that particular way so we gained a lot of knowledge from others that we stay connected to through the web and then just to make it personal We have those web friends down once every year or two and spend a week out here with us doing skill sharing workshops But, you know it's been seven or eight years now. So we did a lot but we did it over a seven-year period That's crazy. I'm just in so much awe of that, it's so awesome! But for people who maybe are trying to... they can't commit like me who is not willing to go the whole way but would love to experiment with it and save some money what are some easy things they could try making at home that would save them the most bang for their buck? Like toothpaste, laundry soap stuff like that

48:54 Yeah, I think you know for each of us it's about well let's start with a different question first which is What's in my waste stream? So every city, every region has a different waste stream. And you're going to find that there are particular materials that are really abundant where you are so that's free materials like start there if you're gonna not have skills yet and you're trying to figure it out if you wreck those materials if you make a mistake or doesn't work out It didn't cost you anything. It was already going to the trash, nothing's changed and you got some experience so I really like to tell people start looking at the garbage The other thing is get a book for your region on just what's free in nature in terms of plants

49:41 It's really fun, it'll take you out hiking. It will bring you into nature so just go start finding plants that have medicinal value and experiment and see the effect it has on your health So that also is free and economical but I would say like I think people don't realize that if you just start chipping away and start making the things you bought, that you can actually change your economy radically. So in New York City Mikey and I we needed two six-figure incomes and not really to be middle class just to be like okay. And six years later we don't even need to earn $30,000 between us and we're so abundant it's silly

50:28 So it does add up, you know the toothpaste the shampoo the biofuel like it really does add up If you don't mind me adding something Greg just because of the nature of your show sure I There's something that I find very juicy in all of this which is You know, we have so many laws that are based on the assumption that we don't have common sense. And that's insulting." So they're saying you can't drink that raw milk, you can't have raw cheese, you can't do these things because you're not smart enough and you don't have a sense to know what is good for you and what isn't.

51:06 And I think that's kind of for me the edge of where we are today. You have to either take back common sense and then use it and do those things or you're going to let industry do it for you, and they're not going to do it well, and they're not thinking about your best interest or your health. You know it's kinda like we invest in a culture aided knowledge which is the system or we invested natural knowledge, the common sense and I'm sure we both need hybrid to but if you have common sense your always gonna be okay. Yeah, that's refreshing to hear. I think a lot of people worry about that. The education system is bought and paid for by corporations that only really want obedient workers and you don't need to learn things that aren't going to help get you into the workforce so yeah, I agree with you

51:59 Yeah, and you know I think today it's like well you know. clearing of all the debt on earth. Of course, from country to country person to person bank to bank I also think graduating college students should consider holding back their entry into the workforce and demand change from it and not give away their most valuable creativity and knowledge without demanding change from the system because they can't run without them. True

52:42 Just a thought. No, I totally agree with you and i'm a huge proponent of the resource-based economy at the Venus Project, the Zeitgeist type of thing. And I'm sure you're familiar with that because it's in your wheelhouse but sometimes they get sick and really frustrated just trying to convince people that would be possible and I'm like look I can't do this my whole life are we gonna get past capitalism on in the next fifty years? Probably not so then if If that's gonna be the way it's gonna be, then what do I gotta to for myself? And so I look at something more like what you're doing as a way to get out because it's... You can't wait for everybody else. Cause life is ticking away. Well, I just read uh.. I don't know if you've read Thoreau's book Walden No, I have not

53:30 I hadn't either. It's a classic, but I didn't really go to high school much so... But um, I read it recently because people were comparing my book to it and he said something in it that is a lot like what you're saying now He was saying the reason he left civilization and went to Walden Pond to basically live off the land- he did the same thing I did basically- but in 1835 Reason he said he did it was he was afraid that at the end of his life having lived his whole life in civilization He would learn that that wasn't living at all and he would discover that. He never lived When I read that, I was like whoa That's powerful

54:11 Yeah, I mean one other thing that was really good to hear you mention the book is planned obsolescence. I think that's an instrument in our culture that people just don't understand even styles and trends in the whole fashion industry is built on the idea that you can convince people that there should be seasons for a certain dress and once ones that time has passed that is no longer a cool thing to have like It's so ridiculous because clothes are clothes. They're going to be clothes in March, they're going to be clothes in July but if you can trick people into thinking there is a fashion switch that's the mechanic of planned obsolescence it's usually more overt like a printer that stops printing after 100 thousand prints or light bulb that goes...that bursts after so many hours but it is really funny and I'm glad to see that your book as not a lot of people talk about that mechanism

55:04 Yeah, well trend I started on early on because I created this text on repurposing events back in New York some years ago and you know when I was really being contemplative about waste. I was drawn right to trend and clothing because it's the most idiotic of all the systems you know? It's basically...I mean trends can really be defined as an artificial prompt to dispose of perfectly good materials even though there is nothing wrong with them No sense. So, you know people say oh but it's creative It's really not creative to pick things off of racks It's creative to make something and a hybrid and to hack but it's not creative to go shopping True I couldn't agree more

55:51 Wow. Well, Wendy I mean it seems like it's about that time you know? I love the book! I love your story! It's very inspirational before we go... Is there anything else you've learned do you think is important for people to hear Gosh, you know have a go have a life just take back your creativity and I would just You know encourage everybody especially kids coming out of school to value the thing they're giving to industry value it so much that you're gonna make that industry work for it change for it become better if they're gonna have you but Just remember. It can't exist without us

56:31 You know, we're the fuel on a dead system. We're the life that keeps it going. We don't have to give it away so... I agreed! One of my favorite Einstein quotes It's kind of relevant but its more about war But he says The pioneers of a warless world are the young men who refuse military service Without soldiers there can be no war you not gonna see Obama dropping drones himself with a joystick He has got to have a guy do that Buy it. So yeah, it applies to all sectors of life that we aren't happy with We are our participants you know we're facilitating it so we need to really stop the gears from moving if thats what we want to do

57:15 Well, I hope Greg that you and I see a day where there's an opening for real change. I know i've been waiting it sounds like you have too! Yeah but you're a lot closer to having in your own life so you know you're not having to wait for that savior to come around you saved yourself so that's the inspiration right there Well, thanks. I do hope other people are inspired they can trust me the water's fine Well said so before we go Do you like to give people your uh your website or tell them where they can get the book stuff like that? Sure So I have a blog called Holy scrap and the URL for it is blog dot holy scrap hot springs calm

57:56 The book's called the Good Life Lab, Radical Experiments and Hands-on Living. You can find it pretty much anywhere retail online Amazon I hope if people like it they'll write a little Amazon review It helps me a lot And mostly if I could point people to Goodreads where they could punch my name in I'm about to hit Northern California So I've got gigs from Santa Cruz all the way up to Hopland's and I would love to see some people in person. I have a really fun talk that ends in a juicy conversation with everyone who attends, so it'd be great to see people." Very awesome! That also just real quick prompted something I saw on your Swap-O-Rama-Rama events that you put on. I was looking down the list to see if there is one near San Diego and I got a good laugh out of One Stop on the tours in Sonoma County

58:47 at the Wells Fargo Center for the Arts. I was like, wow! It's pretty ironic isn't it? Yeah they got their hands on everything but awesome you know it's been a real blast and I hope the next time I'm driving through New Mexico I'd love to see what you guys have done or do you guys do tours or do you show people um... Do you do workshops like that at all We let some folks in that are like-minded and really doing something themselves. If we had our door open all the time, we would do nothing but it gets pretty challenging so we try to pick our moments but we would love to have you Greg and anyone who wants to write a note and let us know they're coming through if were around I can make space will try to do it That's awesome well hey thanks again Wendy take care out there its been awesome great talking to ya Thanks Greg take care

59:37 There it is people, Wendy Tremaine giving us an out. Maybe sustainable living off the grid seems a little less risky to you now? A little less foreign or inconvenient? Or maybe we just see those inconveniences as drops in the bucket compared to benefits of freedom! The freedom to wake up on your own time, pursue your own interests and education, develop skills that you admire seeing in others... Be a guy who can fix a car or make a battery for Christ's sake?! Look, It's too late for me people but you can still save yourself I assure you. Thanks for listening, Facebook Twitter share this show review it where you can It's the best thing you could do to make sure THC is still around if you like the way I do these things There are websites forums people You know they'll ask what's a good podcast? What should I listen to mention THC spread that goddamn word people

1:00:25 My transition will come on the wings of a few more conspirates buyers so check out my shirts at conspirates.net Thanks again people, I'll see you next week Do whatcha do Your move CFR Your Move Look at me, look at me Hands in the air like it's good to be alive And I'm a famous rapper Even when the paths are all crooked-y I can tell you about Leif Erikson, I know all the words to De Colores and i'm proud to be an American. Me & my friends are platypus me & my friend made a comic book And guess how long it took? I can do anything that I want cause look! I can keep rhythm with no metronome No metronome x2 And I can see your face on the telephone On the telephone x3

1:01:33 Look at me, look at me Just called to say that it's good to be alive In such a small world I'm all curled up with a book to read. I can make money open up a thrift store I can make a living off of magazine I could design an engine 64 miles to a gallon of gasoline! I could make new antibiotics I could make computers survive aquatic conditions I know how to run the business And I could make you want to buy our product Movers, shakers and producers Me and my friends understand the future I see those rings that control this system I could do anything with no resistance Cause' I can lead a nation With a microphone, with a microphone And I can split the atom of a molecule Of a marble Look at me look at me driving and it won't stop So good My reach is global my tower secure My cause is noble my power is pure Hand out a million vaccinations Or let them all die in exasperation Have them all healed from their lacerations Have them all killed by assassination I could make anybody go to prison Just because I don't like em

1:03:05 I have it all under my command because I can guide a missile by satellite, by satellite. I can ride my bike with no handlebars, No handlebars, no handlebars.