THC 51: Paul Kimball | The Other Side Of Truth

00:04 In the 1930s, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed a nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the Fireside Chats. His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times but we'll focus on the 1930 and I deal with a different kind of fire For a new era of worldly frustration We offer a fresh conversation! I'm Greg Carlwood These are The Hireside Chats How we doing higher side chatters? Thanks for listening once again. I'm the man who calls himself The Carl Wood and today we're going to be talking to the well-known writer and director Paul Kimball about his newest work, his book The Other Side of Truth which is a great exploration of the mysterious nonhuman intelligence that seems to be communicating with our kind throughout history but first i'm gonna shoot this shit with my good pal and occasional cohost Jake Bender. Jake my good man what you been up to smoking bowls and plugging holes

01:00 Plug and holes. Yeah, smoking bowls no not really my thing I know it's a shame It is anything new catching your attention in the news this week what about this horse meat thing? Uh you know what I heard they found it in Taco Bell here in the States at some point possibly and uh Taco Bell like my favorite restaurant world so Apparently me the horsemeat tastes pretty good So what the hell yeah, I think I can say about it that Actually, we've got a guy at work that he's just the mouth of work. He's always talking and everything out of his mouth is bullshit and probably about six months ago he was talking about horse meat that I pick up in slaughterhouses things like that. And he was talking about how he has these slaughterhouses

01:48 Talking about killing horses or something. We're all like Jimmy shut up You know it's like I said the guy is full of shit at all times and then all of a sudden this breaks And it was like holy shit, this is Jimmy isn't completely full of shit this time yeah The boy who cried horse right exactly You know, who really cares? Pig cow horse. What's the damn difference to me it's like it's still an animal and actually doesn't even make sense to me because wouldn't a horse provide less meat and aren't horses more expensive than some dumb fuck cow Yeah, absolutely horses are very expensive. That's the thing that's confusing me is how much they found and everything so we're getting a deal I guess oh yeah Bring it all like you said I'd Taco Bell still tastes just as good as it did 25 fucking years ago Well, you know as someone who sees the insides of slaughterhouses All throughout the nine-to-five workweek should I be worried? Oh, no, do you see some nasty shit?

02:44 It's it's I don't know. It's not settling but at the same time, it's natural All these places that pick up from are all just very clean They take their jobs very seriously they have to do everything by the book To a T They can't screw anything up or else they get shut down A lot of regulation Yeah its very particular in everything they do and they've got inspectors there on site at all times I mean, United States honestly with what you're eating as far as like meat goes and things like that. You're pretty safe and I'd say 99% of the time. Yeah, I mean it hasn't turned you off from

03:27 Meat and meat has it no not at all actually that's a lot of people when I first took this job to like you know Are you still eating meats like fuck? Yeah now, I actually wanted even more at times and And I mean plus. I get you know meet from pretty cheap from some of my customers and things like that That's badass yeah, so uh so no it has its benefits Damn this kid two weeks had two shows in a row But can you tell your wife to wait for the blood sacrifice for just one hour? Will do she just she's She took her upstairs and then the daughter left her baby doll down here. So she's really pissed She's been in a bad mood for two days because we took it at Target last night and she saw Star Wars toys And then at first she wanted them, but then she said she was like no I'll just get this puzzle instead which is It's kind of cool cuz you know kid wants to learn so we got out of the puzzle and then we got our home Which he goes well, I wouldn't star wars

04:22 So she's been pissed at me all day and keeps asking about Star Wars toys. Well, so gotta be a consequence for your fucking actions I guess so but same time it's pretty bitching that my three-year-old daughter wins Star Wars toys right you're making a little boy Exactly out of her well What do you think is Paul Kimball fell? You've been looking into his work this week Do you think it's gonna be a good show I do I am actually really looking forward to it I heard a couple other radio shows that he's done and things like that and yeah You know, read some of his works. Read some of his blogs I didn't read as entire book because Jesus Christ that worked 60 hours a week But uh...I did Read like the first 30 pages and then kind of skipped around after that read stuff That interested me and i'm looking forward to it he seems like really great guy He's like really good interview Yeah, I mean he's got a lot of work out there pretty diverse UFOs chupacabra ghosts all kinds of great stuff He is Canadian though Is that gonna be a problem for you?

05:19 No, not a problem at all. And actually he does live in the one part of Canada that I know the most about which is Halifax Nova Scotia It's had this obsession with Oak Island Nova Scotia, which is not very far from there at all Wow, but I just know how you get about foreigners. So I'm just hoping you can keep it together What the hell does that mean? Nothing against foreigners Actually our brothers to the north in the book You know he talks about that one particular guy who did those studies and kids at age like three four five Do what how old is your youngest kid she's three you should pay really close attention To seeing if she says anything

06:03 that sounds like it could be something left over from a past life. You have unique opportunity. Yeah, because I've got all three of them but you know Lucy is really into spiritual matters she's always asking about God and Jesus and angels and demons the devil and stuff like that And i'm very...you know I grew up in church so I know alot about it but Tony is an atheist Which is weird because like I have a like one thing. I'll never deny is my faith in God Like that's one thing if you made fun of me for it, I tell you like dude You know your good friend but don't go there But I'm very open-minded about the whole thing and because I'm married to an atheist like with Lucy Especially cuz she's always asking those questions. I give her both sides the table Michael some people believe and then other people believe

07:00 That's good. That's about as you know, it's level-headed as you can even handle it right because I try to give her both sides To give Tony a you know of fight in the ring, I guess Yeah, thank you It's not fair for me to raise her the way I was raised and have Tony for a mom that's not fair for Tony so So I tried and Lucy comes to meet with those questions most times said at Tony It also seems like you're not you might have a spirituality that she doesn't have but You're not tied to any church, which to me is the bigger issue Like when you get people that are tied to a church That's the scarier part right and I was growing up. But uh, I mean there's a lot of questions I have now more and more every day actually because I know you grew up Catholic I know I won't offend you in saying this though Catholics wrote the fucking Bible

07:53 They took all those old fucking scrolls and they built on you know threw it all together in the fucking Bible. They left a bunch of stuff out You know, they fuckin edited stuff because back then there were other people who read these scrolls and said that's not what this says Yeah We have other books that have come out to like right different different like the book of Toth and stuff like that. Yeah, the Gnostic texts and things like that And you know so there's just a lot of questions where how much of this Bible that everybody preaches out or everybody teaches out is actually fact? You know misconstrued in such a way that gives the church the power well The answer is probably all of it has been misconstrued in such a way to give the church the power But I'm not gonna say the whole thing as a false document. I cannot say that because of how I was raised and everything I do still have faith and some of this stuff It's like you will condemn the messenger

08:45 but because you've put so much time into the message and your family's involved in it, and you grew up in it. You won't deny the message but yet you can totally see that The Messenger is a scam artist! a weird fallacy of logic to someone like me, I'm like why are you still attached to that? And it's not that i'm an atheist. I just like to use the word universe instead of the word God. It's just really a personal preference but we're still talking about some type of intelligence Like Tony, you know she doesn't believe in the universe. She doesn't believe in an afterlife She doesn't believe in souls or spirits for me that stuff she just thinks that we're here on this earth as people and then we die I totally was in that boat until I had a Salvia experience that changed my mind like I know it sounds ridiculous But it's its legal in most states And when me and Anton moved out here his brother came and visited and we had done salvia before and I thought It was stupid. I thought it was like

09:42 Low-grade weed it was like something to smoke just because you can get it at the head shop. You know, it's not really anything serious Yeah, and to me it felt like spinning in an office chair It was very just like almost like a cigarette to someone who doesn't smoke And um was mild. Well we did, we smoked some because his brother wanted to try it and I was fucking transported dude! I was not there they were they were scared man they were trying to wake me up but it was like I was instantly transported to this weird fucking candyland dude it was really psychedelic and really trippy I guess the first step would be to black out. I had no concept of who i was, where i was what i was doing...I was instantly at this other place in the same way that a dream happens when you remember a dream its just like very instant you don't remember falling asleep and

10:40 You know the right action. They go yeah, they go over that in the movie inception where they're sitting at the coffee house Yeah, exactly remember how you got here all you know is you're here? Yeah That is exactly what happened on this salvia trip and it was like there was a strange song like this chorus of kids singing this this like happy song and Then there were two entities a male and female Like some I couldn't really see them but I could definitely tell they were some type of that They were two separate beings And this guy was like really motivated and he was like, this male energy I guess I would say. He's like come on man break out you know? Break totally free from your body join us! This is fun this is amazing and the female was a little more cynical she was like...he's not gonna be able to do that like he's got to go back he can't he's gotta go back to his body he can't fully detach

11:33 But it was so familiar. That was the craziest thing, is when I got there i was instantly like oh! I do this all the time. I've been here before...I know these two beings like- I knew these two energies in a way that was like transcended a single lifetime It was SO bizarre and when they were trying to shake me out of it it was weird because I could see them for it They were taking me out of the experience because they were shaking my body and yelling my name. And I was trying to like brush them off, like a fucking bug on your shoulder you know? You're like get the fuck outta here! I'm trying to experience this weird shit and you're reminding me that i'm in San Diego... My name is Greg. There was a part where I was like man I want to hop back into my body to tell them im okay but fuck it they'll figure it out

12:22 Dude, I was at one point prepared to never go back. This is my true self and I can put the costume of a human being back on and go do that but If I never go back, i'm totally cool with that and i'm totally happy right here. It was the most off-putting weird experience ever it was literally a death it felt like a death and I... I just..I was like man is this what happens every night when we dream? Like when do we go out of our bodies? Is this like Something that I experience all the times it seems so goddamn familiar, but that was the weirdest shit. I've ever experienced But it changed my mind from being an atheist. I can't have that experience and say there's no afterlife That's what I that's where I was right now No, I actually I think that sounds fucking amazing and not unbelievable at all I think that that's a definite possibility And then you talk on your show all time about uh using God damnit

13:19 Psychedelics. Yeah, thank you Jesus Christ psychedelics did like reach that stage and normally on your show though You make it sound like you've never had an experience That's the first time I'd ever heard that story yeah well because when I get into psychedelic It seems like salvia is not something that a lot of people put stock in it's all about DMT and serious mushroom Experiences and acid and I've never done acid have never done DMT so I know there's much more to explore out there So I don't really Talk about it a whole lot another weird thing that happened when I was a kid in my the very neighborhood we used to hang out in that subdivision me and my parents had just moved in and we were walking around and Down if you remember behind my subdivision is train tracks And there's like a big valley in between the train tracks, and the houses that the neighborhood backs up too Yeah We were looking down there and I saw

14:13 Some kind of creature and I was really young. I was like in kindergarten, and I just remember...I don't remember seeing it all that much but I remember my first thing was like mom dad come here There's a weird Rhino down there And of course a rhinoceros is not an Arnold But it was the texture of the skin It was uh The same kind of yeah, it was leathery and it was gray and it was about that size And when I yelled that it looked right at me and recognized me in the way that a human would Yeah Then it stood up on two legs. And I said I said no It's uh, you know, it's a weird bear because it's like that again. It's a that same shape that form is

14:57 And then I was like no it's a man and my parents were like what the fuck are you talking about kid? And they weren't hustling. They were, I don't know 150 feet away from me and they weren't hustling to get over to me. And I was fucking flipping out dude because I was having this experience where I'm like this is the weirdest thing that I've ever seen if my parents don't see it I'm gonna be fucked forever. Like I won't ever be able to talk about it. So I'm crying and trying to talk And this thing just like sees me and it just, the weird part is I can't remember it getting away from me but obviously it did. Because the way I was looking at it I had such a vast window of visibility and it was right there in the middle of this valley and I was looking from my parents looking back at this thing looking back at my parents like get over here and It just was gone

15:51 And I was crying so hard and I actually made my parents go door to door in that cul-de-sac, and asked every person who lived there if they've ever seen anything weird. And they all said no. And I was just so upset because I could never validate this thing that I saw. And I don't ever really talk about it. There's been times where I was gonna talk about it on the show cause it kind of came up as like a cryptid thing. Yeah its like a Nick Redfern talk at Potomac Theater It's something that I can't really describe. I can still see parts of it in my mind and it's just weird because it doesn't fit, it's not a big foot, it's not a mothman...it doesn't really fit with anything so you know it is what it is but I guess I'd consider that a paranormal experience? I don't know. Yeah stuff like that though makes me- You know if with me driving the truck I can't do anything that would show up on drug test obviously

16:47 and So, you know that that's not an option for me anymore. I don't know where I can get the shit and so there's all these things that like I would like to experiment with but at what cost? You know, I don't have a fallback this was my fall back for not going to college was driving a truck. So and I make good money doing it. So I'm not gonna do anything that's gonna screw it up but there's a lot of things like I mean with like meditations you can apparently achieve that level if your if you practice it and you becomes you

17:29 Well acquainted with and everything, you know his Kyle ever talked to you about I mean he had any like real experiences without any Psychedelics and just using his meditations because he's really into that stuff pretty deep at me Yeah, I don't know if he's had any experiences without the psychedelics But he's definitely done DMT which is the granddaddy of all the psychedelic sand. He's it had some crazy Experiences with it Is that, I'm gonna sound like such a fucking stooge saying this but... Yeah. ...I don't know anything about DMT is that like you inject that? You smoke it? Where does that fucking come from? Uh its called dimethyltryptamine its actually exists in almost all of nature Its in grass the grass thats in your front yard its in there It's in the human body people suggest that the pineal gland which is the one gland in the brain that doesn't have duality Like everything is doubled in the brain ya know its a mirror image of itself

18:22 The pineal sits right in the middle and it secretes dimethyltryptamine. People think that's responsible for dreaming, so you're talking about this chemical that induces your dream state and Kyle smoked that. It's pretty intense but the thing is Have you heard of ayahuasca? Yeah, yeah. Is that a cactus? No that's peyote. Peyote is a cactus but ayahuasca is a mixing... it's a brew that is the root of one plant and something from another. It's like the bark of one plant and the root of another plant and it's done in the Amazon The active ingredient there is dimethyl tryptamine. It is DMT. There's something called

19:08 an MAO inhibitor. Basically what happens is if you were to go out and eat grass in your front yard, you wouldn't experience anything because we have a enzyme in our stomach that blocks dimethyltryptamine from being ingested it's called an MAO inhibitor well When you mix these the root and bark of these two plants You negate that you basically shut that switch off so then you can ingest it It's a it's actually pretty dangerous because That inhibitor is something we need. Like, if you eat a- If you switch that inhibitor off and eat a banana, ya die! So... You have to be really careful about what your eating when that defense is not active But..if you eat DMT, you have the most insane experiences ever like it's apparently uncomparable to anything else

20:04 I forgot why, oh you were just asking how it's ingested. Like that's the real way ayahuasca like...I want to do that! One of my dreams or goals is to go to Peru and do ayahuasca in the jungle It's something that i feel like I gotta do in my lifetime but I haven't smoked it and I want to but its pretty intense people are suggesting that when you die your brain releases a huge amount of DMT and thats what takes you the next life or that's what helps you to transition and When you get into salvia what I experienced? I thought that was it and I wrestled with it for quite a while as if like but it was just You got to go with how it feels And it's hard to say that something feels super familiar because that's not an experience that we really have It's it's in a it's on a different transcends

21:00 The the normal experiences you have to say that something feels familiar in a way beyond. The scope of your lifetime like that's not an experience that anyone can really identify with but when you have it You just know it. You know, like you can say well how do you know? Your awake right now Well, I just fucking know what a wake is, you know It's like I just knew then That it was something familiar and I've done in a few times since and I really have not reached that same level But the last time I did it Teresa was usually you want to have a sitter just in case you do something stupid while you're out of your body. And I freaked her out, because I came back and was just like... I didn't need to come back Obviously you can't because no one has ever died on Salvia so there aren't people who don't come back but you have the feeling that you don't need to You know how people have this air about them? Like some people where they are floating along and everything is cool it's all good nothing can bother me

22:04 Yeah. I carried that for a couple of days because i just felt like this life was so temporary and so anything that happens to my physical body doesn't bother me because I just experienced death and that's just as fun, it's just as great like... So it actually felt more natural It felt like I wasn't limited by the limitations of a body And-and it was weird! And I remember asking this entity Why isn't this why aren't we all just like this and they they kind of just presented me with well How do you know what chocolate tastes like or when anything feels like or any, you know? Going to earth and having a human experience is so you can just experience matter because if you're just all formless shapes Of euphoria. You don't experience anything really but it felt awesome

22:56 Right and you know, I'm on the I know a lot of Christians that are like that with what you just said about You know We got back into you. No, you were cool Just fucking grew me for a couple days because you didn't care what happened in this body because you know What lies after basically? you know and I know a lot of Christians like that but it where their whole life philosophy is build your house in heaven not here on earth and And so in that respect, their whole life is about pleasing God and pleasing Jesus and things like that. And that's the whole premise is that they don't really care what happens here because they know there are good people. They know that they're helping people.

23:38 Good member of society and helping others and all that stuff so that they're gonna have this wonderful afterlife And you ask any of those people? And they won't question what lies after after this life What you know about their spirit or soul or any of that stuff. They know what it is, and That's why I have to say I still believe in God is because, I know what that connection to God feels like and it's... And that's just how I put into terms. It's probably the exact same thing you're talking about. That's what I think yeah But then why are there all this fucking bloodlust between Christians and Muslims or Jews and Islamists? Well that's manipulation by the power brokers in the organizations Right

24:19 And so, I mean there's just...I don't know. I think there is just like half the world problems could be figured out if all these religions sat down and said hey we're all doing this same fucking thing We are trying to appease our God even people like you and Kyle You are still basically trying to appease the universe, ya know? It's...we're on the same fucking playing field Why is there so much blood? Why is there so much fighting? Why is there so much greed? Because that kind of how I see it I don't have this big lavish fucking house. I rent the fucking duplex, you know? I don't have a fucking Lexus sitting in front of my house. They got it fuckin Remember what fuck car driver right now Dodge Caliber You know so it's I don't really care though because I know that there is an afterlife and uh, I'm a pretty good fucking person I don't you know, I'll give the shirt off my back to pretty much anybody so

25:10 So I'm a good person and i don't think I'm gonna burn in hell for the rest of eternity. And even then, like...I don't know how much of hell I believe." Right that's the thing My belief is that there is one thing that happens when you die to everyone Doesn't matter if your good or bad You're gonna experience the same thing Just like when you cut your head off you die It doesn't matter if you are good or bad When you poke someone in the eye it hurts That where you gotta see the manipulation coming in Because when you tell people if they don't listen to you in this life, it affects some other thing that they can't see or hear but you have knowledge of it. That's when you create that hell! You know what I mean? Like...that's when you create that fear. But I think the same thing happens everyone now there might be something too uh...to karma and there might be something to reincarnation are the ability thought that you come to this earth to learn lessons

26:04 And until you fully learn the lessons and fully learn how to develop as a spirit, you're going to repeat the process over and over again. That's why some people just seem so good at everything they're probably on their last life, while other people seem not able to go deep at all. That's kind of how I feel about it. There is no way I believe in eternal hell. That is, to me as fake as Santa Claus... As stupid as Santa Claus! Like if you're gonna look at the church's manipulating organization that's the number one way they do it is by telling you there's an eternal hellfire if you don't listen to my rules Right and uh.. And that's a thing is shit man

26:47 Do what we do as we say not as we do because I mean the churches themselves are some of the most corrupt fucking yeah They don't believe their own corrupt organizations, and they won't believe their own bullshit. Well hey We're ten minutes in I'm gonna try to figure out what's going on Let me, I'm just gonna try to do the call and we'll see what happens. Alright so here's a little something-something from our current sponsor myself my conspiracy themed clothing brand Conspiratees please check out the bold designs for troubled times at conspirates.net and now also at The Booktree bookstore here in San Diego We'll be right back with Paul Kimball

28:25 Conspiratees.net, let them know that you're there. Bold designs for troubled times? Hard truths, soft cock. Here we go people park your ass and pack your glass because for the next however long Jake and I are gonna be getting weird with Canada's triple threat writer director and producer Paul Kimball. Paul is responsible for amazing documentaries like Best Evidence The Top 10 UFO Sightings Stanton T Friedman Is Real And the TV series Ghost Cases as well as his latest book The Other Side of Truth. Paul welcome to THC Hi guys, happy to be here on the higher side chats. It is a real pleasure to chat with you Paul I Thoroughly enjoyed The Other Side of Truth which is filled with quite a few interesting anecdotes and ideas it also goes into a few areas I was quite surprised by but I suppose the overarching idea would be that there's some kind of mysterious non-human intelligence that's been communicating with man throughout history and various methods akin to as you put in artistic expression a type of

29:24 inspirational performance art, which is a way I've never really thought about it or heard it explained. Although like a lot of people, I tend to address most paranormal phenomenon and UFO sightings as pieces of the same puzzle but can you elaborate on the artistic expression concept for the people? Sure, it was I mean probably Excuse me. It probably stems from my own Background as an artist both as a musician and a filmmaker so I sort of had that way of looking at the world But over the last 10 or 12 years Making films and doing the television series ghost cases having some of my own experiences And meeting an awful lot of people in listening to their stories about their experiences I tried to figure out

30:07 At least to my own satisfaction, what does this look like to me? Because with UFOs of course the predominant meme throughout the last 50 or 60 years has been if you believe there's a paranormal aspect to it. You know aliens from outer space There is sort of subset that comes from the Jacques Vallée school if you will that talks about extra dimensionals and things like that But generally speaking, that's how they look at it. And if you go on to message forums or chat rooms or listen to internet radio or regular radio what you're usually going to hear is people arguing in many cases and in some more informed cases discussing politely where these advanced non-human intelligences are from – that's the big debate

30:56 I have no idea and i don't think any of us can have any idea. And after years of talking to people, kind of found it one of the most unproductive and useless conversations that you could ever have in your entire life. Kind of akin to arguing over who's better the Red Sox or the Yankees? Just sort of waste time because we don't know So what I wanted to do was try and, what i thought would be more productive is to say look. I can't tell you where they're from. I'm just going to make an assumption for the sake of argument that they exist The question really should be What are they trying to communicate if anything to us? What is the purpose... Can we define a purpose behind

31:37 The paranormal if you will so i looked at it from that angle not trying to figure out where they're from but trying to figure out what they might want or what they might be trying to communicate to us and through a series of conversations over a number of years with friends like Nick Redfern and Greg Bishop in the late Mac late mac Tony's. Especially Greg, Greg and I would talk a lot about communication. And the problems that arise just within humanity in terms of communication if you were Albanian and I was Peruvian So you would be speaking Albanian, I would presumably be speaking Spanish. If we didn't know each other's language... ...we'd have a very hard time communicating in any meaningful way using verbal communication. Humans are constrained very much by our culture,... ..by the things that sort of we've grown up with but also by our language in terms of trying to communicate The one thing that allows us to transcend those barriers that we sort of imposed upon ourselves over the centuries is art

32:39 So artistic expression, whether it's music, whether it's painting, whether its dance. You know I could run down the list is a way of communicating very much communicating that doesn't require language so to me It's the most fundamental form of communication. I produced...I don't just do paranormal stuff folks! I produced and hosted a series here in Canada for Bravo about a decade ago called the Classical Now, 26 episodes two seasons of Canada's top young classical musicians performing and then talking about their work. And they would repeatedly whenever you would ask them what was their music about when they were performing something by Mozart or Bach or Rimsky-Korsakov

33:23 or whomever, they would talk about colors in the music. They would talk about communication and feelings which again to me is the most basic form of communication you can have not necessarily us trying to filter things into words but just feelings an impressions and things that frankly go far beyond kind of very linear if you will form of communication we have in terms of verbal communications so fine great This to me is what the paranormal looks like if you are dealing with an advanced non-human intelligence It's highly unlikely at least in my mind that they would be trying to speak to us Any more than we would be trying to speak to a two year old infant and have that infant understand us or I? Hesitate to use the sort of example of dogs or ants or whatever. I'll stick humans so What?

34:17 you would do with that infant though, how you can communicate with them. And you know, you can hear people talk about playing Mozart to babies in the womb even trying to instill upon them some sort of level of culture or higher intelligence which is what I think Mozart is You can communicate using non-verbal forms of communication So music art painting when I look at the paranormal That's what I see. I see an attempt at communication Using what we if we really look at it would call different artistic forms So take UFOs for instance. Mm-hmm, please take them now I'm just kidding here twice on Sundays folks the

35:00 You see light you hear reports of lights in the sky. You can look when I did best evidence top 10 UFO sightings, I can't remember what trying to think all the cases but take the mouse mouse from missile base case the top case the rb 47 case analyst of cases almost all those cases involved sightings of what you could call lights in the sky, in varying different forms. The Rendlesham case, the reports of lights dancing above the base in the United Kingdom and sending what they described as lasers or laser-like lights down but those are basically light displays we have those same kinds...we do those same kinds of things go to any baseball game on the 4th July actually any minor league game in California you'll see fireworks display after the game if you go

35:47 If you go to the Czech Republic, and I have. I talk about this briefly in the book. You can go to Prague and see black light theater. You can go to Burning Man in the United States and see all sorts of light displays And you can appreciate them even more if you indulge in some of the potentially illegal substances that are at Burning Man So you've got all these things going on? And to me that's it It appears as an artistic presentation and the interesting thing is well I was talking to somebody and they said well wait a second now Art. It doesn't make any sense though, what's the message? I said well first of all a lot of good art doesn't make any sense it's open to multiple interpretations that the purpose that an artist having been one use you don't... One thing they'll teach you when your writing film scripts for instance is the worst criticism you can get from somebody who reads your script is its too on-the-nose

36:38 which is to say, it's literally hammering the audience. It's giving the message away from the very beginning. So what people want are film scripts that are not quite so literal. So even within film You don't want to literally tell the audience and give them the answer right away. It's what makes M Night Shyamalan's The Sixth Sense such a compelling movie is, you know, the answer when it isn't obvious until the end and then you go back and see how it all should have been obvious but the cleverness of the filmmaker kind of took you with this story. When we look at Jackson, three of us could walk into an art gallery stand in front of a Jackson Pollock painting or a Dali or Picasso and look at it and say, all three of us could take a different meaning out of it. If you added the artist into the mix what was he originally thinking when he painted it? There's four different interpretations so many respects we become even a co-creator of the artistic interpretation I can go down different people when they listen to Bach or when they listened to The Beatles will take different things out those songs

37:39 So, or that music. So I don't think the purpose is to give us a particular message. I think the purpose is to encourage us to think...I hate the phrase outside-the box but I'm going to use it. To think outside of the box and imagine different possibilities To look inside the box too, if you will. To look inside ourselves So all of those things that to me is what the paranormal is doing You can find that...you can find those kinds of things throughout human history too so it's not confined to the UFO era Of 1947 onwards a sort of modern UFO era You can find all these...you can find all these kinds of things throughout human history So I think it's something that has been interacting with us from the very beginning I think it has a lot to do with

38:22 human consciousness with an understanding of ourselves, which is why one of the Subtitles in the book. I think it's the paranormal the art of the imagination and human condition so I talk a lot in the book about us to know where we've been where we are and where we're going and I think the paranormal has a part to play in that well you mentioned briefly a better appreciation for a light show on certain chemical compounds, psychedelics. And I think that there... Me and Jake were talking about psychedelics a bit in the pre-show but i think there's a real link between artists and psychedelics it's pretty obvious for a lot of people but

38:58 You hear someone talk about the late, great Terrence McKenna describing his communication with a greater intelligence through mushrooms and DMT. And he describes the manifestations of dancing machine elves that approach him holding out various complex geometric shapes and what is that other than performance art? I mean there's a brief mention of ayahuasca in your book but I'm kind of curious have you had any experience using psychedelics as a tool for communicating with this intelligence at all? No comment. I'm just kidding! Um, I wish actually when we were doing Ghost Cases my co-host Holly Stevens and i used to joke on a regular basis that when it was all over we should have some sort of spiritual cleansing kind of ceremony because at the you know... We were joking that maybe these dark forces and as I make clear in the book I don't think um and we can talk about this maybe if you want uh the reason why I don't think they're evil or dark or anything like

39:53 I didn't necessarily think that at the time in 2009 when we were shooting the series and I was being strangled in jail cells or whatever. So, you know we thought what if these things what if this whatever these are attached themselves to us so we talked a few people they said look you can get a spiritual cleansing I said, well we could go see a Roman Catholic priest or an Anglican priest or whatever but wouldn't it be much more fun if went down to Peru. Traveled up one of the rivers to one of the sort of aboriginal settlements and just did one those ayahuasca retreats? And kind of you know so sort of I've talked people, I've met people who have done those things and they go in one way and they come out in entirely different way. I never met anyone who's done something like that who hasn't been changed. Yeah, I agree.

40:41 And always in a positive, I've never seen anyone... you know you see people who become cocaine or meth addicts and it changes their lives in very negative way. They become addicted. This is..I've never heard of that happening with people who had this experience with ayahuasca Or any of the like payout in the southwestern United States or whatever different substance they're using in whatever different culture It's always been a very positive eye-opening experience. I mean in the worst case scenario you kind of get sick and you don't take to it, which I actually checked with my doctor he said look if you do this here are a few things that could happen to you. You're not going to die but it might not be pleasant physical experience for you but thats sort of the risk you take

41:26 So yeah, it's something I'd like to do but it's not something that I've ever done. For one reason or another we decided not to do... We wound up going to the Czech Republic instead and so that made a very interesting chapter in my book eventually because I ran into shadow people and the Chesky Krumlov. Yeah! So I probably would have wound up writing about meeting machine elves on Ayahuasca or shadow people in Czech Republic but one way or another you know I sort of had a paranormal experience I guess Yeah, I mean it's weird because psychedelics seem to make that communication easier. You are able to access the other a little bit simpler. It's weird but your book does cover a lot of ground and I really enjoy the parts about your experiences filming ghost cases

42:12 I've always sort of found ghosts to be the most cheesy of paranormal topics and because i'm kind of turned off by the religious implications And all that but you did have a few interesting things happen there. Can you share a couple of those stories? Sure, uh You know, i've never prior to doing ghost cases I had never watched A single episode of any of the ghost hunting shows including ghost hunters. I think i'd watch five minutes once which was six minutes too much So, you know it was not a genre that I was particularly interested in ghosts. Not something that i was particularly interested even within the paranormal Even though the maritime provinces of Canada have a very rich history much like New England does. Every region has a rich history of ghost and legends but the East Coast, New England, the Maritimes

43:00 Stemming back into aboriginal culture and their legends very rich sort of history of ghosts and paranormal happening So I was familiar with it. It just wasn't something that spent a lot of time thinking about so I went in you know, it was a gig frankly And that's what I do for living. I'm a filmmaker. So I'll take a gig and it just so happened It sounded interesting and it was something to do with the paranormal. So that was interesting too and Of all the things I've done in my career related to the paranormal, it definitely proved to be the most interesting thing that I'd ever done. Simply because i wasn't meant to host it, I was originally just going to direct it produce and write it but we wound up...I won't say firing, we had a mutual parting of ways with the original hosts who were quote-unquote professional ghost hunters and they were very sincere people very nice people they took themselves and what they did very seriously

43:54 Which just didn't fit in with what we were doing. They didn't understand the constraints of a half an hour television program So there's you know, there's certain things you can't sit in the library You can't broadcast somebody sitting in a library trying to communicate and quotation marks where it goes for eight hours It just doesn't translate to TV very well Yeah, so so they left by mutual agreement And then we needed a host so I was it I wound up hosting as well as all those other things and I brought Holly in because I needed a co-host because because she's much better looking than I am. And she also had a science degree and we thought that would be useful thing, cause she was a good friend In terms of some so yeah, it was fun in terms of some of the cases one of the ones I described in The book. I'm trying to think of the ones that I haven't talked about quite So much because there's there's one or two that I almost always talk about The one I liked the most was and it was kind of brief But your description of this black void that you and Dave Sadler saw? Yeah sure Actually, it was Dave Dale Stevens my co-producer

44:54 But it was at a church in Shock Lack, England. It's probably my favorite case. Yeah very weird! It is the one I talk about the most because it is my favorite primarily because of its really cool place and a very old church from the 13th century in England Dave Sadler is part of an organization called the UPIA, which is a sort of very good paranormal investigating group people in the United Kingdom. In the Cheshire region and he was an old friend of mine so we agreed to help us out. We did four episodes there one of them wasn't shock like he had visited their number times with a number of different people every time you've been there something weird it happens and other people who had visited head also I had a very long history of weird things going on

45:40 It's also very important to understand it is a very isolated place. Shock Lack, I think the population is 8 cows and 4 sheep and if you drive down 3 miles there's a guy who lives in the house that sounds like a sexy fun time yeah its on the Welsh border there is a town within driving distance but you couldn't, so it's pretty isolated When we got there, Dave walked us through. This is Dave Sadler walked us through the location gave us a bit of the history and then you know we all set about doing what we do which is we split up kind of did different things at one point and night fell and I found myself sitting... The camera crew was off with Holly that's right and another investigator named Steve Mara

46:27 Dave Sadler was somewhere else in the church grounds far away and my co-producer Dale Stevens was somewhere else I think up by the van. So there it was, I was just sitting at the back of the church kind of waiting for the crew to finish up with Holly and then I was plotting out what the next segment that I would do or whatever And I looked out of the sort of corner of my eye over at the tree line past the cemetery There's no such thing as a purely black sky. At least I've never seen one, there is always some sort of ambient light from the moon or something like that and so the sky you know maybe was 85% black we'll say

47:03 And then all of a sudden, in the middle of the sky... It didn't fly into the sky. It didn't come from one side to another. Just appeared I describe it as a black void almost There's an old episode of Star Trek where this girl keeps sort of warping in and out She opens up a trans-dimensional doorway or something and comes in and kills members of the Enterprise crew So I frame everything in terms of Star Wars and Star Trek That's where that's where I come from But yeah, it was like this void in the sky sort of appeared and it lasted for a couple seconds. And then boom! It just disappeared. not inclined to talk about those things. I was frankly embarrassed when something would happen, you know? I have a law degree! I'm a professional so what my uncle Stan Friedman has often talked about is the laughter curtain...I wasn't afraid of the laughter curtain but there was still that part of me that said A.) I can't believe whatever just happened just happened and B.) even though i am here hosting sort-of ghost investigating television series

48:07 I don't want to look like an idiot. I don't particularly want to talk about this, I'm supposed to be skeptical." So I wouldn't have said anything except Dale Stevens my co-producer wandered over five or ten minutes later and he said you'll never believe what I saw a few minutes ago over there and he pointed at a completely different part of the church cemetery yard it was rather large, it's a large cemetery yard off the top of my head, maybe the size of a football field and half. And that's a Canadian football field which is bigger than your football fields." He described what I saw only in slightly different way but it was definitely this sort of black void in the sky. He used some different terminology that I did he framed it in something other than Star Trek language. He used something else.

48:53 Wow, he said yeah. I know that's crazy isn't it knowing well It might not be quite so crazy Dale and then I told him what I had seen and he immediately yelled at the camera crew to stop talking to Holly And come over and interview me while I was still you know At this point I was kind of ramping up into being willing to talk about it So in the television episode series in the episode which I actually have online at my company's website So people can see this kind of you know without having to pay for it You You don't see the black void in the sky. All we could do was sort of a lame reproduction, an animated reproduction of it because we didn't catch it on camera but you can see me

49:31 I'm a reasonably sensible guy. I try to maintain a level keel, and have been in some tight spots before you know had some strange things as briefly an RCMP officer when i was in law school. I've had some...I've been in tight spots but I was running on nervous energy this night and it comes through the episode because what I'd seen really was pretty amazing not in a scary way just wow! I can't believe that happened And then there were other things that happened that night too. That wasn't the only thing, there were audio anomalies. Holly and I both heard the sound of horses hooves and... There's sort of a long story associated with that but it was a recurring theme that a lot of people had heard. There's nothing around them, there is no cobblestone path or anything. I live in a city with cobblestone streets so i've heard horses hooves on cobblestone. I know what it sounds like, that's what I heard! There was nothing there when we looked all around, there was nothing there that could have made those sounds

50:24 The weird thing is we heard them multiple times. Holly heard them once by herself, I heard them once myself and then we heard them together as we were talking about why i hadn't told her about hearing in the first place again not wanting to to talk about those things. And then as we're talking and she's chewing me out off camera, because the camera crew had wandered off to do something else with Dave Sadler We both looked at each other went did you hear that? Yes! That clip-clop clip yes! You know kind of that mute and we were like wow so we yelled it the camera crew come back over and of course by the time they got there There was nothing to pick up. We had audio recorders They didn't pick up anything So even though we both heard it there's nothing on either of our audio recorders that we were carrying

51:06 So when I look at that entire night, going back to the artistic thing. To me it's like going to a Cirque du Soleil show in Vegas and seeing Mystere It's just a series of strange weird wonderful mind-boggling things that are happening to you And there were some other things Steve Mara saw some light anomalies that we couldn't explain and it was just a night of sort of a cavalcade of weirdness that kept going battery drains and all sorts of strange stuff None of which we captured on camera, none of which we captured on any measurable thing like audio recorders and at other locations and other times. We did catch sort of strange things on camera and audio recordings but here everything was very personal it was just out of reach or whatever it was that we were using to recorded

51:54 That's kind of a cross between a comedy club and Cirque du Soleil. Very much performance art kind of thing, and we all walked away... And this is why I say when the purpose of all this is to make us think, to imagine, to wonder, all that sort of stuff, to talk amongst ourselves about the possibilities of what might be out there if that is what They quotation marks they are trying to do mission accomplished on that night in shock like because when we're heading back to the hotel Which was we're staying at a town called Congleton, which I don't know is about two hours away two hour drive away. I You know all we could do in van Holly and I were in one band There were two two vans In the van we were and I think it was me Holly Dave Sandler and one other fell all we can do is talk about

52:43 what we'd experienced and, and what it might mean. So you know that led to a broader conversation about things like who we are in all that other sort of stuff so yeah They're not in that case. They wouldn't be giving us the answers They're just opening the door providing us with questions and then letting us try and come up with our own answers If you don't mind me asking what kind of answers have you come up with to describe? You know like ghost encounters in the void in this guy and things like that I mean, I know your you know a lot of your theories on reincarnation things like that But how does that you know is there any way you can shed some light on what these ghosts encounters are And what they're trying to show excuse me fellas sorry about that

53:26 No, the short answer is no. It goes back to that question of take UFOs for instance where are they from? To me with the ghosts the question of what are they is sort of the same thing as asking you know where are the UFOs from I think there all related and it's all part and parcel of the same thing we're dealing with advanced non-human intelligence period! I can't tell you what that is some people would interpret it as God Other people would interpret it as space aliens. Other people would interpret if you go the ghostly way is the spirits of the dead, I definitely don't think it's the spirits of the dead. I'd like to think the afterlife is not quite so banal as being stuck in the same room for all eternity wandering around haunting your great nephews or something. So whoever buys the house 200 years down the road? To me, It's kind of like a funhouse or something and it doesn't really matter

54:23 Where they're from or what they are so I don't spend a whole lot of time worrying about What ghosts are where UFOs might be from to me that it's just one common denominator one advanced non-human intelligence and the really important thing is How they're communicating with us and what they're trying to encourage us to do. And when I talk about this, I get some people who There's a message form that I joined years ago and I still sort of participate every now and then when I have some free time called UFO Evolution. Somebody asked me about this, they heard me on Coast to Coast and I sort of tried to explain what I meant about this artistic thing in the communication. And there was this one guy who just kept coming back and he just kept saying well this doesn't make any sense. It might not, I'm perfectly happy to admit that what I'm saying might not make any sense but his reasons

55:19 for that, where these are clearly aliens from other planets in nuts and bolts spacecraft. They're abducting people all this other stuff why on earth would they you know what do you mean by an art exhibit? And I all i could say was well first of all I didn't say it was an exhibit um i'm not talking about paintings in the Louvre or something like that but every everything was so very literal and at the end of it of our interaction, I just kind of thought, I think you've just proved my point because clearly we are not capable of communicating with each other. You're not getting what i'm saying and while I understand what you're saying, I don't really understand why you're saying it so perhaps...I didn't write this, I probably should have but I've learned to get too angry on these message forms but I kinda thought writing something like look maybe we should both take crayons

56:10 Go to our corner draw some painting to do or the crayon picture describe what we're feeling post those on the internet and that'll be a way of communicating with each other because i'm clearly be more productive than what were doing right now but they didn't. Didn't get it and I thought is this me not being able to explain properly which is kind of. proving my point about the limits of verbal communication or even written communication. And then I re-read, you know the relevant parts of my book and I thought no because it...I think i'm pretty clear on this that what this is and provide a number of examples throughout the book too for instance Cirque du Soleil as one of them

56:46 when you look at, I love Cirque du Soleil every time. What is it? The Patton Oswalt skit It's like catnip for old people but...I'm not that old but still I just love Cirque du Soleil every time I go to Vegas and I've been there a number of times I always go see a Cirque show But there was a story I talk about in the book because some people have kind of asked me well wait a second what about scary stuff Like you had scary things happen to you where were afraid And I went yes Well, that's bad. Right? That's got to be evil we're dealing with something that means to harm us." And I say well no does Roger Corman mean to harm you when he makes a horror film or did the guy who made The Exorcist Peter Blatty mean to harm you when he made The Exorcist or any horror films or does somebody... When you're at Cirque du Soleil and they do something scary and I talked about this in the book there was when i was there In 2007 I saw a show called Mystere

57:43 And I was sitting with a friend of mine who is the narrator of Best Evidence, Chris McBride. She and I were traveling in the States and there's these...I call them cat people but they're guys who are sort of dressed like cats or some strange creature. The show was going on in the stage and we're sitting in the front row of the second tier so the walkway is right in front us and there's a barrier in front of us And you're not paying attention to what the cat people are doing. They've wandered off into the audience, you're looking at what's going on in the show So again, the idea of performance art is misdirection Sometimes What's happening right in front of you isn't as important As whats about to happen that You haven't been paying attention too Sure enough one of these cat people kind of wander along The base of partition barrier between us and The rampway that separated two sections

58:36 unbeknownst to us, I mean. And then just popped up right in front of Chris. Boom! And sort of right in front of me but...I was definitely like you know scared we were all kind of momentarily scared like and then you realize oh it's just a cat person not Chris. You know Chris was- I thought she was gonna have a heart attack she literally let out this yell and if you want to talk about the co-creation of an artistic experience I'm pretty sure that the cat guy, whoever it was playing that particular person at night had never quite experienced something like what he got from Chris. The entire audience heard her and he jumped back a good two or three feet and she grabbed my arms like ahh! So there you go, there's a guy whose purpose in doing that is to elicit a reaction clearly

59:22 What he got was a reaction that elicited a reaction in him So you've got the this this sort of these two people who are having this moment together and then all the people surrounding them She was like really afraid for a very short period of time. She did calm down and the cat guy kind of looked at us And went, you know, yeah, were you okay? And then he wandered off to have his own heart checked But afterwards, when Chris and I were sort of talking about after the show. I said that was freaky wasn't it? You were scared to get it was really scared and neither of us thought that was a bad thing she's I remember what she said she said I felt so alive

59:59 You know, it literally was one of those things that if you view your day-to-day existence as kind of a let's say on the scale of 1 to 100. It's the zero. Yes. It's the baseline very mundane Yeah, well not necessarily money but yeah sure let's call my life face Okay, so is mine? No That's the baseline anything that takes you above that is interesting and it can be in any one of a number of ways. Music can take you above that, You can go to a concert and get into mosh pit that could take you above that but fear can take you about that too One of the primal human emotions is fear And I talk about them in my book My own experiences as kid in haunted house You know when they sort of stereotypical pay to get into haunted houses But Chris's experience with Cirque du Soleil and then my own ghost hunting experiences There's nothing inherently wrong with fear

1:00:50 Fear is a good thing. Fear can protect you from harm, for one thing but it can also just on a very basic human level remind you that your alive and I guarantee you and if Chris was here she could guarantee you she definitely felt alive at that Cirque du Soleil show when the cat person popped his head up so when you hear these stories of whatever the paranormal is. It could be ghosts, it could be UFOs, it can be any manifestation of it but when you hear about people being frightened by it that's our reaction but that doesn't necessarily connote evil intent or bad will towards us. It's just one other...any more than Roger Corman does when he makes a horror film I'm making a horror film right now! I hope people are scared when they watch it

1:01:38 Yeah, I totally agree with that promise. you know, we willingly pay to go see stuff like that. We and not just horror films, you could go on on these roller coasters, these massive road which really scare me these massive roller coaster so you can jump out of planes with parachutes or all the other things that people do they put their lives at risk? They embrace the thrill You want to call it thrill or fear whatever to try and conquer that fear to try and feel an experience that takes them above that baseline of zero

1:02:17 So again, getting back to the paranormal if you view our lives as the baseline of zero or one or whatever you want. To me the paranormal is something it's an attempt to remind us that it...the scale goes to a hundred and maybe it goes to infinity but to encourage us to move beyond that baseline just our day-to-day lives of getting up going to work coming home watching American Idol going to bed There's far more interesting things out there that we should and could be thinking about. When people say, well what's the message to give? There has to be a message right. They have to imparting a cure for cancer up to us or you know advanced technology they're trying to give us that right so no they are not trying to give anything anymore than we do homework for our children You'd be a lousy parent if he did your kids homework at least I think it would but that doesn't mean you can encourage your kid to study to read to learn you shouldn't encourage your kid to do their homework and if the kid asks

1:03:15 You might actually provide some assistance, but you can't give them the answers. That would be wrong because then the kid doesn't learn anything they have to figure it out themselves So to me that's what the parent in terms of that so people are waiting for whatever The paranormal is to give us the cure for cancer or to you know Give us better bombers and drones to blow people up or whatever They think they're gonna give us or even the secret of life. I said, that's not coming they want us to do that work all they're doing is providing us with the inspiration maybe to think about it. You mentioned kids and probably the most unexpected topic in The Other Side Of Truth something that i'm really curious about is reincarnation and past lives a topic that's definitely been marginalized in the western world but I was surprised to see that your book what are your thoughts on reincarnation?

1:04:07 Yeah, that was I was surprised to see it in my book too. Because it's not a subject that I had really sort of looked into although I've certainly always been fascinated by it and familiar with it but my you know I'm hopeful agnostic when it comes anything to do with in quotation marks religion or God or whatever you want to call So, in terms of reincarnation I'm definitely open-minded. It makes sense to me. Yeah, kind of...I went through this thought experiment when i was writing the book and it kinda comes out in the book Does the very idea of reincarnation make sense to you? And it sort does! In a sense that

1:04:51 Assuming that the three of us were all men living in North America at this particular time in history, our average life expectancy is probably about 80 years give or take. By the time we hit 80 it'll probably be up to 85 or 90 but that's a relatively... It's not even relative! That's an extremely short period of time of existence on this plane and there are only so many things you can learn in that period of existence Well, if we're meant to experience as many things as possible then it makes sense to me. If there is any life after death whatever religious tradition or spiritual tradition you want to pigeonhole that in doesn't matter but if that concept is real and I tend to think there is without being absolutely sure of

1:05:41 then it makes sense to me that it would be reincarnation, that wouldn't be us going to the Elysian Fields or to the Magic Kingdom in the sky or whatever. Or hell...or any of those places It would be that we continue to get recycled back here and have different experiences So if I'm out drinking and I have a particularly sarcastic mood And I really want to upset people I will, I have been known to actually you know sort of pontificate about how i was probably an SS concentration camp guard in a previous life and they're like that's my god how could you even think of that? That's horrible! You were at Auschwitz and Kelby was it yeah

1:06:21 You know what? It's all part of the thing. If you look at multiple lives, it would stand to reason that at some point we would have to do all of it so at some point we would have to be the SS concentration camp guard or the Roman centurion crucifying people on the Appian Way after Spartacus' revolution or whatever...all these bad things that people do and on the other side of the coin at some point in our life we'd have to be the monk or the great holy man, who is actually trying to help people. It would have to be the garbageman and everything. It's kind of like the episode Star Trek where they queue Continuum and say I want to die because i've been the scarecrow, dog, newspaper...

1:07:08 So, to get the full range of human experience you'd have to be both a concentration camp guard and at some point an inmate. In different lives but that idea. That makes sense if your looking at having an afterlife because otherwise how could we be fully formed human beings? Souls whatever you'd have the guy who was the concentration camp inmate, you had the guy who's a concentration camp guard. And then you'd have me, who is neither and if you're going to like unless you really do believe there is one supreme being who was literally judging us all for only having one chance we don't even get three strikes and your out like you doing some American states you'd have one strike One life that's it If you screw it up You done eternal damnation just doesn't

1:08:03 I mean, that just doesn't resonate with me. No no no...I can't say any of this makes sense to me so i won't say it doesn't make sense to me It just doesn't resonate with me as being even remotely logical or fair or anything else What does seem logical and fair? To me if you posit an afterlife is many afterlives Many different experiences Even talk in the book about how you would come back as a bat Or A snail Think about how old the universe is How long This sort of construct has been here Billions and billions of years Well, if I live to be 90 years old and I hope I do that isn't even to say that's a that's not even A grain of sand on a very big beach of the universal time scale right? So when you sit back and you kind of look at it that way and you say well Okay reincarnation starts to make sense to me And then when you look at it within the paranormal You try and link up in terms of the paranormal. Now couple other things came out of it to me That makes sense too

1:08:58 One of which is what happens when you've had all those experiences, assuming maybe someday you do. Or at least you've had enough that you've learned as much as you can as an individual and you've accumulated this body of knowledge? Now, you don't remember it. I come back say I was the concentration camp guard while I don't remember being him for a whole host of reasons that wouldn't make sense. You have to have a completely new experience but then when you die, let's call it a clearing house and say, great okay it's like changing uniforms. Alright great I'm going to you know we're changing clothes so I'm just gonna leave this suit here and put a new suit on and go out again then when i come back up with new suit on again but still have all the suits unless you throw them out so don't throw the suits at folks. So eventually your closet is full oh I like that I'll have to put that in my next book. Eventually your closet is full and uh... and then you say okay well what do I do now

1:09:55 It strikes me that what you would do now is you'd be ready to move on to the next thing. And, to me the next thing would be a collective consciousness where you kind of like... this is horrible I keep dropping Star Trek and Star Wars references but in Star Trek, I got criticized somebody criticized me on a blog or something and said this is the kind of shallow thinking you hear in the paranormal because it's a bunch of middle-aged men basically who grew up watching sci fi and they're just regurgitating sci fi ideas in form, you know, paranormal pop psychology or something. It's like really? That's no... You know, that's pretty limited view what science fiction represents but anyway here I go so in Star Trek Deep Space Nine they had Odo this character he was part of the great, you know, he was an individual we also belong to this thing called The Great Link with the founders whatever

1:10:42 And that's an idea that resonates with me too, you hear so many people talk about how we're all linked together and various people talking about ideas of collective consciousness. I don't think they really actually stop to think about what that would mean You can't, you can't... this idea I know a lot of evangelical relatives who are very dear people. Oh i'm sorry But you hear no my grandfather was a reformed Baptist minister and I have great deal respect for these folks But when you talk to people and they say, well we're going to die and we're going to go to heaven. And we'll see our loved ones in heaven really? So you're literally just going to show up in heaven kind of the way you are now as that individual. Does that mean that the Rockefellers showed up in heaven is those individuals? Well how does it make any sense to me because

1:11:36 say this guy went to Harvard so everything his life experiences will now translate to heaven your life experiences will translate to heaven. So you're telling me heaven has the same class system that we have here on earth? Well what's the point I don't want to go to heaven then because, ya know, i'm middle-class here and I don't wanna be middle class in Heaven. Although the Rockefellers might be in hell They might be, although who knows? I don't believe that there would be such a thing as hell. Other than maybe where we are right now. True By which I don't mean this particular conversation although anyone who's listening may think otherwise So you're not going to go... You wouldn't exist-I can't see how you'd exist as an individual as Paul Kimball or anybody who is existing here What makes more sense to me is

1:12:22 And if you look at a lot of the literature when people talk about near-death experiences, which is the subject I'm fascinated by but didn't get into in the book or any of these sorts of things. They talk much more about joining something and becoming part of something and it frightens us many people find that concept frightening because they talk about losing who they are. I don't look at it that way. You know enhancing who we are joining returning to you know maybe the one great link if you will so I think a briefly in the book, i think i talked about this idea that we are view all life in the universe is an email what what is an email it's.

1:13:06 it's a form of communication that is basically broken up into its constituent parts and then reassembled at the end of the chain, which is your computer. So maybe we're all parts of that email this cosmic email if you will and at the end we all get reassembled back into the original message so when people talk ask me what do I think paranormal is? What's the message? And say well maybe were the message and may be what we are dealing with may be this advanced non-human intelligence Is this collective consciousness it's where we go whether you believe reincarnation so maybe cycle through multiple lives and eventually you choose to join this collective consciousness.

1:13:49 Well, then maybe that's what we're dealing with and it's providing us with glimpses with you know a pathway to get there eventually. Or maybe you don't have reincarnation and maybe when we die we just join this collective consciousness or maybe were part of it anyway Maybe did exist even as we exists I don't know There is any one number ways looking at it but we are all part of something bigger than just ourselves If nothing else, if everything that I just said is completely as my British friends would say bollocks or untrue or bonkers or whatever it's still not a bad way of thinking about things because if you start to think of ourselves as part of something bigger than just ourselves then you might become just a better human being in terms of dealing with your fellow human beings.

1:14:38 It makes it much harder to hurt people or to do bad things if you look at them and say, we're all part of the same thing aren't we? And so it's much easier to do those things. If you can marginalize them and say You're different than I am for whatever reason So I can treat you as the Nazis would have said subhumans or non-humans I think that's if nothing else, you know if that's what people take out of my book the idea that maybe we're all part of something bigger so we should be nicer to people then that's probably not a bad thing. Absolutely, and I have one question about the reincarnation subject matter if you will. What are your thoughts on like regressive hypnotherapy and past life regression things like that? Do you think that's a legitimate thing? You think we can access these corners of our minds or these corners of our spirits or what have you and wind up seeing

1:15:36 Figuring out who we used to be at some point or do you think that's just a big load of crap? Maybe when you're a kid. Yeah, it's a couple of things first of all I used to be very I still am Very critical of hypnosis as a tool for retrieving memory There was a reason you the courts of law won't use it It's inherently unreliable. It's been repeatedly proven to be unreliable and to a point where if you do come to rely on it, it can be very damaging um... to people. Both the people who are hypnotized but also the people that maybe they accuse of something after they come out of hypnosis There's been child abuse scandals that have been launched by this kind of retrieval past memories That have proven to be completely fallacious But its ruined peoples lives between Point A and Point B Where they figure out none of this was true

1:16:31 Alien the alien of quote-quote alien abduction thing. I've been very critical of that too, and I remain critical I think people are doing far more damage to people than We ever sort of really think about so having said that however That doesn't mean as I've gotten older and I thought about it a bit more Doesn't mean that I completely rule out hypnosis for a couple of reasons in for a couple of things The one thing I do talk about in the book is And this gets back to the idea of taking ayahuasca or whatever, is how do you make contact with the paranormal? I talk about buying a ticket. If you view it like an art gallery or Cirque du Soleil show or whatever, you have to buy a ticket to get in and see Cirque du Soleil. People can talk about seeing Cirque du Soleil all they want but unless you bought the ticket you're not actually going to see the show

1:17:25 Or even if you watch it on the internet for free, you still have to make the effort to log onto YouTube or something and call up this Cirque du Soleil show. So you have to make an effort to do it. And maybe that's what me going to a cemetery in Shocklack England or somebody who goes out and takes ayahuasca or somebody who sits down and has hypnosis done on them. Maybe that's part of buying a ticket. Maybe that's the act of buying a ticket indicating a willingness to have some form of communication, some form of paranormal experience. Okay, I'm fine with that. And I wouldn't even rule out hypnosis although I certainly would never recommend it but you never know maybe that's a way of buying a ticket You should what I would caution against is relying on what you take out if any those experiences are particular meaning because I think the one thing That I've been pretty consistent about talking to you guys but also in the book and everything else is

1:18:26 that there isn't a linear message that's being communicated to us. So it's not like they're giving us the cure for cancer or anything else, so if you take out of any of these experiences a particular message I think you're actually missing the message which is... You know, you're not missing the message but if-if-if you think that that's the only thing that could be then you're missing the message because there are multiple interpretations that are possible like looking at Jackson Pollock painting So if you're just there to use it as a door opening to take a ride and have some fun, and imagine and think then I think maybe it's not such a bad thing.

1:19:07 On the other hand, if you're using it to retrieve what you think are dyed in the wool absolutely specific memories of something then I think that's very dangerous. So there is a difference between the two. In terms of retrieving memories of past lives Maybe but I would like to think that those things would be closed off to us or at the very least maybe we just get glimpses and One of you hey, I can't remember which one mentioned children. I do talk about that in the book Because when I was a kid I had I can still remember it I would be lying on a couch It was always on a couch reading and more than once when I you know before I turned 10 So while I'm still relatively young

1:19:52 Suddenly I would literally add this Feeling of falling so that you know the wind not just a physical sensation within my stomach Although I get that too, you know where your stomach churns if you ever been on a roller coaster You know what it feels like yeah But literally hearing and feeling the wind rushing by me as I would be going down stopped happening III couldn't tell you what you know eight nine seven when it stopped happening but eventually Stopped happening and then you know we kind of forgot about it Or at least didn't think about it, but looking back on it now all these years later Thinking about reincarnation in past lives the possibility strikes me that maybe you know That's you don't get like somebody doesn't show up and say you were Napoleon Everybody's always Napoleon. Why is everybody always Napoleon or somebody famous? You know you were famous um

1:20:43 Nobody ever says I had hypnosis and I was a ditch. You know, I was a surf in 1374 and I get you know the some noble came by You know raped my wife burned my farm and then stuck my head on a pitchfork nobody ever has that experience so But which is far more likely that they would have had that experience than you know being Napoleon, so I don't think you get a literal Recitation of sort of your life history from a past life kind of like reading an obituary or biography. I think what you might get are Glimpses maybe like I may be sort of got if the wind rushing So then I think well okay did in a previous life did I fall off a cliff and?

1:21:23 You know, did I was a hanged? Anything that would did. I jump out of an airplane and not the parachute didn't open. I don't know So you start to wonder okay Maybe you just get those glimpses And again The purpose of that is not to give you the exact biography who you were Anymore than the purpose of anything with the paranormal is to give you an exact message like here's the cure for cancer but to sort of maybe make you think and give you a clue or hint, or just a gentle little nudge which is usually what the best art does. It just kind of inspires you to think and then it lets you sort of... And then it says okay we don't care which one of these paths you take, just take a path! Don't keep standing here

1:22:04 And I think that's what the paranormal is designed to do when it comes to these sort of past life experiences. I think that's what its designed to do if there is something to this past life stuff, I don't think though that you're going to get your no matter how you go about doing it, you're gonna find out you were Napoleon or a particular guy because I've read about people who say This guy in 18, you know, he lived from 1824 to 1882 and he was killed on the front. Really? How do you I'm sorry That's where they lose me Because I don't think it's about any particular life It's about just all of them and I don't think it comes back to this idea of the collective consciousness But I don't think it's about me or you or who we are in terms of particular in terms of anyone experience I just think it's about all of it And then it kind of meshes into the

1:22:54 to the goo if you will at the end of the road and your something much more profound, your some of all your experiences. And if you look in our own lives that's what we are I was talking my friend Tim Binaul on his show and he was having a lot of trouble with the idea of collective consciousness You're a collective consciousness. So am I you know what we're collective consciousness of our own life experiences every night you go to bed? You die and every morning you wake up, you're born again Yeah, you know your different person shorter chapters. Yeah, absolutely But I am a

1:23:33 radically different person than I was when i was five and when I was 20 and When, I was 30. And if I go any further people might figure out you know just how old they are You know? I'm 46 in those 46 years you could count every single day and I've lived a different lifetime but even If he didn't want to look at it that way think about what It would be if you take half of your life so say you're 40 and you Go back half To when you were 20 if you're 30 can go back to when you were 15 Would you leave with that person even recognize who you are now? And the answer is probably no. I don't just mean physically, I mean just in terms of all the experiences you've had so every experience changes who you are and become a different person

1:24:12 So, we're doing it every day whether we like it or not. All I'm talking about doing is over multiple lifetimes and then taking all those experiences and rejoining perhaps something even bigger. It's nothing that should frighten people but something that really excites them you know I've always liked the Alan Watts explanation because he owes he you know he's always into the idea that we're all God and that's kind of a abstract concept but he basically says, if you were eternal being, an all-powerful God and you went through thousands and thousands of years just having everything you wanted manifesting whatever you wanted. You'd get bored! And then if you tried to enact thrills the only way you could really do it is without memory so it kind of ties into the startling Catman performance that

1:25:05 you his interpretation of it or his explanation of it and then he says you have to have different lives with no memory of the past ones, to really have new experiences. To really have excitement otherwise it would be very mundane to have a memory that lasts 100 thousand years and knowing that when you die its just going to be another life if you knew that there wouldn't...there wouldn't be any thrill to it And I think thats a really easy way to conceive of that idea

1:25:44 Sure, yeah. Not just no thrill to it but you'd be constrained... there would be no opportunity to learn because you would be constrained by who you were before So, to use my concentration camp guard example. There's no way that if you brought that person into a new life with memories of who he was in his past life that there would be any learning because they would be sort of bound by who they were the same bigoted bias prejudice violent behavior that they exhibited before That's part of the human condition and unfortunately it's part of who we are

1:26:21 But if he was going to have a different experience, you'd have to start fresh. And so there's also something to be said for familiarity and comfort and Not completely losing everything so I don't think you lose everything. It's like a suit, you put on a different suit but your other suits are all still in the closet and then maybe when you're done you pack up all your suits and go somewhere else with your full wardrobe So, that makes sense to me but it probably doesn't make any sense to anybody listening. I'll have to work on coming up with a better example than the suit example. Yeah, that was a good example. Now, I do have question on all of that though. As far as not remembering your past and things like that – if we did remember, if we could somehow find a way to remember that stuff wouldn't that be a potential good thing because then you'd always strive to better yourself from the past?

1:27:22 I mean, that's what I do in my daily life anyway. I'm always trying to better myself, better my family situation things like that so if i could remember what has happened in the past you know with a different life if you know reincarnation was real then that would give me kind of fuel for the fire to keep striving to make a better life and it gave you a chance to learn from the past and things like that so now how can I do it differently this time You think so, and that it's good that you can do that. I try to do that most of us know most of us don't learn from the past most of us continue to repeat even as a talk about this in the book in the sort of penultimate chapter but the human condition we continue to repeat same mistakes that we've made

1:28:04 we generally speaking don't learn as a species from all of the terrible things that we've done. So you would, for instance perfect example First World War at the end of the first world war almost everybody said we can never let this happen again We just killed millions of people an entire generation really young men wiped out in Europe This is so horrific this can never happen again Clearly, we will never let this happen again. So they created the League of Nations and all of these things that were designed to make sure that this would never happen again. And then as soon as it created the League of Nations, the United States won the major powers said well, we don't want to join big political fight in the US and they decide we don't want to join in the whole thing kind of never really

1:28:51 You know without one of the major world powers it never really kind of amounted to anything and 20 years later they were doing it all over again only better. They were killing even more people and then at the end of it, they develop nuclear weapons which have the ability to kill... And they use them which have the ability to kill even more people than you can possibly imagine! We came very close in the Cuban Missile Crisis very very close To actually launching a nuclear war and you would have general after general on all sides who'd say we can actually win this thing So, there's a perfect example right there of how you would think you should learn. How people said they were going to learn and yet they didn't learn and they repeated the behavior. The same people...the people who are fighting who were generals in the Second World War had most of them had fought in the First World War. They we're very same people that said we should never let this happen again. And here we are 2013 all the lines have been drawn on the sand again and then world war three is pretty much knocking on our door

1:29:49 Yeah, well I don't know if World War III is knocking on our door but I don't know if we need a World War III because we've got so many other little wars going on. We're in a state of perpetual war which... If you look at human history, we've always been in the state of perpetual war some of them are really big those are the ones we remember like World War II or World War One The US Civil War and then you can pick them out whatever country talking about you can find the war But if you look at human history there's it's all It's all the little wars that you never remember, that kind of add up to be... Well we're always at war aren't we? When people write the history of the 21st century in a thousand years

1:30:26 Nobody's going to remember the names Norman Schwartzkoff David Petraeus None of those guys, you know McChrystal all the generals in Iraq and Afghanistan. They're probably not even gonna remember Afghanistan They might you know rack might get a page or two but probably not Anymore than if you look at British history outside of certain You know British historians most people don't remember the wars that the British fought in the 19th century Afghanistan yes we remember the British were there sort of I guess. The Boer War, there's a statue to the Boer war here in Halifax because we send volunteers but ask most people about the Boer war and their eyes roll into the back of head and they go what? No it was three years major conflict that the British fought at the turn of century that almost launched

1:31:12 World War because the Germans were supporting the Boers long story nobody remembers it But it was the most important thing that was going at the time in the United Kingdom, so Nobody's gonna remember Afghanistan. No one's gonna remember Iraq probably Vietnam is not gonna be remembered very well In a couple hundred years So that kind of puts things in perspective to you too That what seems very important to us? You know in the grand scheme of things probably not so important but The one thing that you can take away from all of that even as you forget the names is that it's always happening. We're always fighting about something and the people that we celebrate, I do talk about this in the book a bit generally speaking are more violent types most people today

1:31:56 I use this as an example. If you were to take 100 people on the street, just any street anywhere in the United States or Canada and run two names by them ... Now, I'm pretty sure that most people wouldn't know either of them but more people would know George Patton's name or Douglas MacArthur's name than would know Dog Hommersholtz. To me that's a terrible, terrible thing because Patton and MacArthur were generals who killed people, even though they were on what we like to think of which was the right side in the Second World War. Still their job was killing people. Dag Hammarskjöld was a Secretary General of the United Nations his job was saving lives creating peace he was killed he died in a plane crash trying to broker a peace agreement in an African conflict nobody remembers Dag Hammarskjöld outside some UN staffers and some school kids that go to model United Nation

1:32:49 more people know Patton and Rommel and MacArthur, those kinds of people. And I think that's a bad thing that says a lot about us so You know, and people will be listening. Oh I thought they were gonna talk about ghosts and UFOs what are they talking about? But to me that's what the paranormal is about it's what it's always been about It's about trying to make us... Trying to show us a better path trying to anytime you can encourage people to imagine And to think and to think about something more than just themselves then I think they become better people and I think that a greater awareness of other people around them, and are less likely to do the harm more likely to want to get to know them. And you share their experiences if I look at paranormal and say well that's what the advanced non-human intelligence is trying to do because we wanted to hurt us it could

1:33:39 if it really has the powers we ascribe to it, whether its space aliens from Zeta Reticuli coming down and using laser beams to flatten cities. I mean, we can flatten cities! Imagine what a race coming from another planet in another part of the galaxy could do? We can blow up the entire world ourselves. What could they do? It wouldn't take them more than five seconds so when you see movie like Battle Los Angeles or Independence Day they're ridiculous. The idea that we could resist an alien invasion is crazy Or God, you know if you're talking about a god. Well he flooded the earth right? You know 40 days and 40 nights He really is God and he created the universe There's not a whole lot we can do to stop him if he wants to do us harm So whatever the advanced on human intelligence Is it would have powers far in advance of anything that we could imagine If it really wanted to hurt us It could the fact that it hasn't yeah We're still here right so the fact that it hasn't tells me that it's not here to hurt us Yeah That's not the point

1:34:35 The two possibilities left are benign neglect meaning it just doesn't really care. I don't buy that because it does seem to want to interact with us at least some of us those of us that are willing to buy a ticket so you can't just be I don't see this being just neglect that leaves just me one other possibility which is its here too I'll leave it all help us now people say help where's the cure for cancer. So that's a pretty linear short sighted way of looking at health, that's what we might think of as help but they're taking a much they would take a much longer view given that the universe is billions of years old and vast, and we're just a teeny tiny small part of it. The cure for cancer doesn't really mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things What means a lot is encouraging us to think in different ways And then who knows maybe one of those people who thinks in different ways will be inspired To use their scientific training knowledge and smarts instead of building a better way to kill people Maybe they'll channel their energies into finding a cure for cancer But we have to do the work

1:35:38 Right. And I mean, hey this is getting to about the top of the hour there was one completely unrelated thing I wanted to ask you a little bit about because I saw this when i was going into your bio and I haven't gotten a chance to see it, but another documentary you made is Fields of Fear about the mystery of cattle mutilations. And it's something that I was really curious about as a kid but I haven't heard much about in recent years It's kind of been on the back burner of paranormal and UFO research at seems But can you tell me a little bit about the material in that film? Did you come to any conclusions about cattle mutilations or any reasonable explanation

1:36:17 Sure, actually given that I've just spent the entire show saying I basically don't know. It'll be good to actually end on saying yes, I do know it was a yeah so I was profiling as a biography really of a Canadian rancher named Fern Belzill in Alberta who's been he's retired is I think he's probably over 80 now But he had spent about 10 years investigating alleged cattle mutilations in the western region of Canada. And he was convinced that there was something anomalous to it, and he was sort of convinced although he would never actually come right out and say it that it was space aliens but um... He was definitely convinced there were something anomalous so I you know made the film and I- he had his say There were other people in the film who talked about different things

1:37:05 But the conclusions I came to were different to me. The answer is clear, there's nothing anomalous about it these are not animals who died natural deaths and what you're seeing is the result of predation and scavenging from other animals really? And so people Whenever you hear this, you hear this often Linda Moulton Howe has made a very good living For which I don't begrudge her. That's fine But talking about cattle mutilations kind of made her name on it with a couple of films back in the 1980s and she and And most the other people to talk about are they always reference these police officers? They referenced two things one farmers they said well farmers know their animals Well, it's true farmers do know their animals but farmers

1:37:55 And I mean no offense to farmers here. They're not veterinary pathologists, they're not experts They're experts in certain parts of animal husbandry, but they're not experts in a whole wide range of any other things to deal with animals. I'm an expert in humans because I live with them but I'm not a doctor and certainly not a coroner so if somebody came to me and said Paul you deal with humans every day right? Because you employ some of them and work with them and live with them yes it's true But here's the thing, I couldn't tell you what killed that guy because that is not what i'm an expert in. And with police officers the same thing is true You hear the descriptions from police officers say this police officer looked at this sort-of cut or whatever on an animal and it was made with laser like precision The first question I would ask a police officer after that is So exactly where have you ever seen laser cuts before on flesh?

1:38:57 I mean if you have let me know. But to the best of my knowledge, the answer from all of them is going to be Star Wars or whatever and even in science fiction you generally don't see...you just see the stormtroopers get hit and you don't really see the wounds so you're just laser-like precision really? Okay here's the thing there was a whole bunch of reports Everybody talks about Ken Rommel who's this FBI agent who was commissioned by the government in the United States in New Mexico To look into this he came up with a 300 page report Said it's basically predation and scavenging and a couple other things thrown in but it's all explainable They should have bought it then, but nobody did they said oh He's biased and he was working for the government whatever I

1:39:42 There's a, you never hear referenced. There are number of academic articles there is one in particular in the it was weird because well its not weird I understand why Fern had never heard of it. I posted on a number websites included it my film which folks can see again go to our website It's available and watch for free online entire film come to your own conclusions but it was an article in Canadian Veterinary Journal didn't take me long to find Right there here are veterinary pathologists who took a serious look at cattle mutilations in the 19 I believe is late 1980s Although it might have been the early 1990s But you know well after Linda Moulton Howe and all these other people have made their films and stuff. They said, okay We'll take this seriously will take a look at it And they in I think it's an eight-page article with photos and everything Here's the explanation folks I mean this and they explain as veterinary pathologist would do that

1:40:36 You know what how it causes so when people say well it's predators and no it's not pretty of course you couldn't be because you know an animal wouldn't do this in the night will know the animals die natural causes and then you start talking to work with animals. They tell me how these things sort of work so people often for instance people will say well there is no tracks around the animal body, Okay, that's true. Kevin Randall is a UFO investigator in the United States who's in the film So he said he's a guy he's one of Roswell investigators He believes aliens have come from space so he's clearly not an arch died-in-the-wool debunker So this is a guy who believes aliens crashed at Roswell and

1:41:15 But Kevin looked into the cattle mutilation thing, came to the same conclusion that I did which is it can all be explained. He said well of course if you don't see tracks around... Well birds are scavengers as well so the birds land on the animal and then the first thing that the birds will go for is the fleshy part So not all cattle mutilations are the same but one of the common sort of things here is the insides of the animal were pulled out amazingly pulled out. Well yeah sure that's because animals, birds but also animals like weasels and all sorts of other predators they literally burrow right into the animal pull the insides out because that's the part they want to eat of course it's the juicy bits and you don't really see there's...they don't rip the animal open other animals will pull pieces at the flesh off

1:42:03 The Hide, Wolves. My cameraman when I was out filming Fields of Fear he had actually worked on wolf documentaries for a top researcher into wolves. I'd never heard this but one of the things you'll hear is sometimes the tail will be missing off animals or patches of skin will be torn off and he said well yeah if the animals tear those off they'll stick their teeth in pull the pieces of flesh off and then they use them as playthings you closely. I have one now, it can look like a pretty clean break you don't see this jagged sort of all these teeth or anything they just grab one part and pull it back when you think about what's going to happen when you pull it back its like opening a package your gonna pull the paper and rip the paper in relatively straight line if your police officer who is not an expert at those kinds of things might even be inclined to say that when you see something like that was made with laser-like precision

1:43:14 Because that's how you think. But yeah, when you read these articles and they are out there from people who've looked at...who know what they're talking about who don't have an ulterior agenda Who honestly look into it because they're trying to see if there is something strange going on here Not just maybe aliens but trying to figure out Look Is there something that isn't natural happening? Because that would be a serious thing They've all come to the conclusion. No, there isn't all of this can be explained and what it is is a lot of fear-mongering and That sort of thing that's going on And frankly I think it's a disservice to the paranormal to the real subject of the paranormal which is wondrous and mysterious and and all sorts of Really cool things to get hunkered down into the subject of cattle mutilations Which you know the idea that space aliens are?

1:44:04 would fly all the way here from Zeta Reticuli or whatever just to kill a few cows and rip their skin off, that sort of thing. I mean when you step back from it if that's how mundane the paranormal really is and the space aliens really are then i'm just going to start watching American Idol because that's not terribly realistic so I'd like to think that if space aliens are coming here, they're a little more advanced than just basically hyped up college students running really strange lab experiments on our cattle. Dymondskie-Meyer That's probably why we don't hear much about it anymore is because it's probably been settled somewhat. I always thought it seemed really odd. I thought maybe it was probably military testing, if anything military weapons testing but this makes sense. I don't know much about dead animals so ...

1:44:55 Well, the only possible explanation I could think of that might be beyond the predation and the scavenging is not paranormal. It would involve governmental testing of the cattle herds because of BSE and various mad cow disease and various other things that might be... And there's an awful lot of conspiracy-mongering that fits into a whole sort of right wing anti-government conspiracy, the world's coming to an end kind of meme that takes place in a lot of the paranormal subculture. I wouldn't completely rule something like that out But I almost completely rule it out. I've never seen any evidence that would support it So barring, you know some sort of shocking evidence that would come forward where somebody would say yeah? I was part of that and that's what we were doing. I find it hard to believe that as Competent is our military seems to be and our secret, you know there's clearly intelligence operations that go on that we don't know about sometimes until decades later

1:45:56 But something on the scale of cattle mutilations, there's no evidence there that would convince me that kind of activity is going on because we just haven't seen enough evidence. Well, sorry if that seems terribly disappointing. No it's cool. If anyone wants to believe that the military is harvesting our cattle or whatever but there would be better ways for them to do it than even if you think of it logically then doing this and if you ever get caught... The one thing about... One thing if you study intelligence operations long enough, if you study the way the government works, the intelligence agencies work which I have, is they're risk adverse

1:46:38 which is to say, generally speaking with a few exceptions in human history but generally speaking they don't want to do something that is going to run the risk of creating a massive blowback if they're ever discovered. And something like this, if you take a look at the BSE, experimenting on herds cattle all that sort of stuff... That's the kind of thing most intelligence agencies Being tremendously risk adverse would run away from screaming given and that's that's not idle speculation That's looking at the history of how intelligence agencies behave Generally speaking. They're not a bunch of cowboys No pun intended, they're not a bunch of Cowboys out there just running wild and crazy experiments occasionally you see that kind of thing happen and they are always eventually called to account for it if

1:47:30 and somebody always says, we could never do this again. But then again you know we always do these things again so it's possible I just don't think it's probable. Well there are plenty of other mysteries out there that haven't been solved It is what it is, but that pretty much does it for us Paul. It's been great! It seems like the net keeps getting cast a bit wider and what I mean by that is in terms of UFOs and psychedelic experiences and ghosts and entities... People have really started to think of them as part of the same phenomenon recent years now you've made me think of it also in terms as a paranormal art form which kind of relates to the muse concept and general artistic expression so this thing this as elusive as it can be seems to be

1:48:14 attached to more and more areas of our reality. And maybe that means we're getting closer to some truth, but before you go tell the people where they can find your work and check in on you online what you're working on next Sure, my central website is my company's website is redstarfilmtv.com that so that's a RedStarFilmTV.com and most of my films are online through various distributors like UFO TV So you can see them on YouTube but that website I have links to everything Central Repository so That's where you can find me what I'm working on. I'm just finishing up a feature film right now actually called damnation which should be out sometime in the mid to late spring of this year, so you know back to my day job and it actually has something to do with the paranormal I guess and around about way and the same sort of questions because they

1:49:10 They fascinate me, the same sort of questions about life and death and good and evil. And who we really are? How the paranormal might relate to that so even when I'm doing my real work...I still am fascinated by this journey trying to discover who we are and what we might be dealing with beyond just mundane zero baseline level of our daily existence Amen. Well, hey that's awesome Paul really had a great time thanks again keep doing what you do hopefully we'll talk again in the future Thanks guys, very good to talk to you and folks listening won't know but I actually missed the first call time and they were very good about it because I screwed up the time zones. So they're very good about calling me back, I appreciate that fellas Hey no problem being here Paul It was truly a pleasure sir it's refreshing believe or not to hear somebody not afraid To say I don't know And that these answers will never be answered You know so it was very refreshing I really enjoyed talking to ya man thanks for coming on

1:50:10 I appreciate having the opportunity guys and just remember there's always another side to truth. I gotta come up with a better catchphrase but that was perfect. Alright man, take it easy! Thanks guys! Bye Good times, Mr. Bender! How did that interview sit with you? Like I said man when on the closing with him it was great It really was refreshing to talk to somebody who's not afraid to say... ...I don't have all the answers and he has a well of information This guy is so smart and super open minded

1:50:46 I just, I love his I don't know view on everything because he's not afraid to admit that there are questions that won't be answered and that he has made it his mission to search these things out. And you know on the other side of that is like guys like George Soukalos who don't get me wrong, I like that guy a lot. Giorgio, sorry I got his first name wrong. But uh you know he's the type though that's like...I love this meme i've seen this picture on the internet a few times but it sits so true with him. I don't know therefore aliens. Yeah! I'm not saying its aliens but its aliens Right Yes, I mean it's refreshing to hear a guy say, I don't know but here are the questions and here are several different theories on what the answer could be. And you know it was cool to listen somebody really just try to put as much information out there without ever drawing it into one solid conclusion

1:51:41 You know he leaves his whole theory on everything is that the question That they're trying to get us to ask the questions. They're trying to ask us two questions find answers and Key didn't even answer the question or the answer of the questions himself He was leaving the answers open everybody because I think and I think that's His whole philosophy is the answer might be different for everybody That's true too. That's why a lot of these things that happen are very personal experiences, synchronicities are ... sometimes they don't translate when you describe synchronicities to other people as like who gives a shit? But to the individual there is definitely meaning there Right. Righto

1:52:21 Cool. So, you've seen your fair share of animal mutilations at work all day! But what are your thoughts on that? Have you ever looked into that? I always keep an open ear ... I see probably 60 head of cattle a day. It's kind of sad because- Literally heads? Yeah, pretty much but uh you know I always keep an open ear for any weird stories from these farmers and these hillbillies And stuff like that and because the you don't get any of his slaughterhouses around big cities They're always off in the distance where you know people graduate it like basically the sixth grade level But here's the screams right exactly but no It's you know I like he starts. I guess you brought up if it's a government thing He brought up BHE them had cow disease

1:53:08 And I hate to debunk something so blatantly because, you know, I like entertaining a lot of ideas and things like that. But the BHE thing that mad cow disease? That's not a joke. The government does not screw around with that. Like if for instance...I know for fact that they find one cow with BHE in Missouri in like one farm they're gonna kill every cow on that farm. The government will step in and destroy every cow on that farm within something like a five mile radius every cow Jesus yeah, because it's I mean they've got it all under wraps. I mean there hasn't been a case in a few years I think since like 2001 maybe and then they had had one in 2010 I think in California and since then we haven't had a case United States And that's the ultimate goal is they don't want this to pop up because it's a devastating thing Yeah So III really do I don't think BHE has anything to do with that? I don't think that was ever a government

1:54:04 Deal because of well, I mean it could have started off as that It could have but now they don't want anything to do with it there. They do everything they can to keep it away You know what an outbreak right and when he starts on the the guts coming out of the animals, you know the guts coming out of the cow carcasses. Yeah, the animal's eating the guts out basically Right and that could also actually be a... I'm real familiar with that because what i do for living For those listeners who don't know it, I drive a truck for an animal rendering company so we take all of the byproduct all the parts aren't used to meet things like that in we uh... take back our plan is processed into a couple different products

1:54:46 But nothing for humans at all. Chicken nuggets? No, you can't say that! It's for animal feed and things like that. Pretty much anything that says animal byproduct on it like a bag of dog food or pig feed or actually makeup and paints and all kinds of stuff but they use our grease and bone meal from rendering plants The guts actually, as soon as the animal is killed they start swelling because the animal isn't passing gas anymore. So all of the gas just swells in those gut sacs and then you know because they have like I think three stomachs in their gut sacs so it just keeps swelling like a balloon and will eventually burst. And same goes with every inch of the intestine that will all start swelling and everything

1:55:32 Lot of times if an animal dies out in a field if it's like real hot for instance It'll start swelling. It'll either split open the stomach or else just swell right out of the butt and then you got like a giant sack of just innards hanging out of the animals ass, and it's uh, it's not an uncommon thing But any cows are actually very hardy animals so it's very weird to see them die in a field Pigs though I mean pigs are not hardy. I mean they die like crazy Wow. Yeah, I was like we could do...I actually thought about that back before you were a co-host I actually thought it would be interesting just to have you on just to talk about your job because it's uh kind of like a Mike Rowe dirty jobs type episode but man there is an episode where he did with an animal rendering company I think it was like episode 51 or something like that but yeah he didn't do he actually worked for an outfit in California and it was very

1:56:30 I guess outdated outfit and it was like we've got it much easier than them. We really do but uh, It's you know, it sounds terrible but I love my job. I have a lot of fun at work And once you get past the smells and you don't worry about getting blood all over you or you know animal bile all over You? It's not so bad! It pays the bills, I've got great insurance. That's what drives me fucking crazy is because you know i'm manning a retail store that sells video games Kyle is running a coffee shop and me and Kyle are here talking about economic slavery And that capitalism is big

1:57:11 big Ponzi scheme and that we're all victims. And then you, a mutual friend of both of us are digging through animal guts You're like I don't see the fucking problem here! What's wrong? It's not a bad job it's really not uh like is it would be terrible if they paid us what other rendering companies paid because there's a couple here in our area and the one I think they pay like 12 bucks an hour or something like that significantly more than that. Oh shit! And like I said, we're union and you know it depends on how you look at the unions on if you like them or not but it definitely has its benefit but... Man well I really do appreciate your positive outlook in your good nature I always have because I get cynical and I get pissed off and you know I guess some people would say that

1:58:07 It's a little hypocritical for some only child who grew up in a higher middle class family to be able to like, you know, be bitching so much. It is what it is tears here. We are I actually argue people say oh well You know could always be worse, and I'm like yeah But that doesn't mean it couldn't be better too I'm sure there were a lot of slaves out in the cotton fields that are like well at least we're not picking up bricks And bowling balls this shit is soft and light. It's like that's not That doesn't mean anything. Just because you can think of a worse scenario, it doesn't mean your current situation isn't shit. Right. And in your case literally... I definitely have my complaints if i could make the money im making now and only put in fuck 40 hours a week

1:58:54 I'd be ecstatic, but right now i'm working 60 hours a week so when I work for my money it is hard work But uh, I've always welcomed hard work. So that doesn't scare me No, I mean if I could pick up bricks and bowling balls and make the money I do now I totally switch all right They don't leak bile on you. So yeah, right exactly Yeah, you might just break a toe every once in a while But I don't want to bring you down to my level because it's just, y'know. It's not a good place to be. I'm not in a healthy place. At the same time, you get to have more fun! Because of all the DOT laws and things like that...I've got a lot of restrictions DOT. What's DOT? Department of Transportation. Oh, okay Yeah I mean we were talked about that briefly is that I think it's part of the big conspiracy to keep us away from psychedelics from keeping us away from experiencing the other as Kyle would put it or you know this non-human intelligence

1:59:44 If you get people in a situation where they need the job and then you control the life around that to eliminate any psychedelic usage, you also get to control someone's mind in a way. They can't alter it past a certain point and that is a goddamn shame." And I think that is all connected of course- You make a good point. I am definitely a victim of their controls Okay, well now we're getting somewhere but hey we go Well dude. I loved it. I loved it. I love talking to you all goddamn day while we waited for Paul It was quite a wait But being a stoner or I'm used to people not showing up on time Anything you want to leave the people with any hints at your next blog the people are Jones and man they're fucking Johnson Oh No actually I don't have anything planned right now. I meant to start writing like off people that's what Jake Zander says

2:00:32 Well, Hireside Chatters that looks like the end of another THC. Thanks so much for all the support donations favorites shares reviews subscribes fucking retweets and goddamn likes That's where it's all at people and thank you again Please if you take an hour to listen the show take five minutes to help contribute to the growth and support And of course, the more shirts I sell at conspirities The more days off i can take from work. The more often I can put out a THC episode It's all about time! The god damn time commitment They got me by the balls Jake too But thanks again everyone Thanks Jake Follow him on twitter at THC Bender and ill see you next Sunday May the force be with you No one knows where the ladder goes You're gonna lose what you love

2:01:22 You're not alone in anything, you're not unique and I feel estranged every now and then. Fall asleep reading science fiction. I wanna fly in your silver ship Jesus hanged up. Sit and summer nap The days are long, the ups and the suns And a twist in mind If I gotta go first, I'll do it on my own

2:02:09 I'm tired of traitors Always changing sides, ah Don't hang around once the promise breaks Or you'll be there when the next ones make Kiss the feet of a charlatan Some imagined freedom All the rest is predictable You can say you're the first to know Order mantra to concentrate

2:03:07 call on more hissing snake I know how it's gonna turn gotta call or i'll lose my place gotta get to the center gotta get to the concert run off with a dancer gonna sell peach paint lights from the jungle, to the sky

2:04:03 See now stars, books just like a blush Won't it just make you a precious friend? Well I know when its finally done This whole life's a hallucination You're not alone in anything Alone and trying