THC 45: Kenn Thomas | JFK, UFOs, & Popular Parapolitics

00:04 In the 1930s, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed a nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the Fireside Chats. His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times. But what F-30 and I do are different kind of fire For a new era of worldly frustration we offer a fresh conversation! I'm Greg Carlowitz on The Hireside Chat Welcome to the show, Hireside Chatters. What a wonderful day it is! Drinking a little drink, smoking a little smoke... I'm your hazy host Greg Carlwood and today i'm flying solo for a talk with a man who's been researching the alternative side of things for over two decades and that man is Ken Thomas

00:47 Ken prefers to call his area of research parapolitics as opposed to the loaded term conspiracy theories. And he is a man, the man behind the popular Steam Shovel Press publication and has authored over a dozen conspiracy and paranormal books of his own including NASA Nazis in JFK, JFK and UFO and his newest Kindle book Popular Parapolitics. He's done more conspiracy research than I've done breathing and I'm damn proud to present him to you today. Ken welcome to my stupid stoner show Well Greg, thank you very much. My pleasure and I myself have been interested in conspiracy for some time and I started out as a student of the David Ikes and Jordan Maxwell's and I really didn't know much about the work of so many other people until I met Adam Gowrightly and he introduced me to whole new set of great researchers yourself included So lately I feel like i'ma kid in a conspiracy filled candy store ya know? Ha! Adam Gowrightley is one my gurus Actually...I have this whole scheme

01:43 wrestle Jesse Ventura in the ring that I will secretly put a mask on go rightly and put him in the ring at my place. That's awesome! He did Mexican wrestling stuff but he's a fabulous writer one of the cool things is that he contributed a chapter to a book of mine called Secret and Suppressed 2 about Tuesday Weld, yes a television actress who may have also been some kind of high priestess in a druidic cult Yeah, we actually had Douglas Hawes on the show not long ago. Exactly! What do you think of Jeff Turner's story since we're on the topic? Well it dovetails into my recent lecturing because one of things I'm doing is demonstrating how the Kennedy assassination was telegraphed in advance a year in advance on national television and program called Route 66 Yes And there's an episode of Route 66 that has Tuesday Weld

02:38 as the star, she's like 18 years old and it has all of these weird things in it because this is again came out 1962 a year before the assassination. And the two guys Route 66 the premises basically Kerouac and Cassidy driving across the country and the premise that this one is they drive into a fictional town that is right outside of Dallas They drive past the highway sign says Dallas Waco and the name of the town is Kilkenny Oh man. And Tuesday Weld's character, I forget her name but it's a double M it's like a Marilyn Monroe thing anagram and also we have photographs of George Maharas' brother George Maharas played one of the two guys he played the Neil Cassidy figure but his brother we got pictures of his brother partying at Jack Ruby's Carousel Club during the making of this show so there are all these Kennedy

03:33 connections and you could call them synchronicities but what they basically are predictions or forecasts of what's going to happen. But at the same time there is this subplot about how Tuesday Weld was abandoned as a young child, and her sister ties her to a tree and this tree looks like...the whole thing looks like a druidic cult! So it ties all into what Jeff Hawes was saying that Adam had in that little essay Yeah, it was definitely an interesting topic. I mean it all hinges on the thoughts and ideas of one man which makes it kind of you know... But yeah there's definitely seems to be other links throughout the world that show that this could be the case

04:14 As far as your research is concerned, a little piece of Ken Thomas' history that I really liked was that your publication Steam Shovel Press started with an interview with Ram Dass. Can you tell us about that? Oh yeah! That's exactly true. Richard Alpert who was Timothy Leary's partner at Harvard before they both got fired for giving undergraduate students LSD And Tim Leary went on to great fame on his own, kind of developing the science of neurologic. But Richard Albert kind of dropped out and he went to the East, got a guru in India and changed his name to Baba Ram Das. He's fascinating man! Very interesting guy. I was working for the newspapers here in town and had this one assignment... He was coming to town so I had this assignment go do an interview with him

05:04 And I did, and I swear I almost became enlightened. We had a fabulous interview! It was great but then when i did it and I typed up the transcript and was ready to turn it in and get paid for it... They decided to nix it because at that point Ram Dass had already gone. He came, he did his lecture and I did my interview and he was gone so the newspaper figured there's nothing there to promote. So therefore we won't use it." And I'm like oh my god! I've got this fabulous interview with this brilliant man and you know it's gonna go waste. It wasn't just about the money because I billed them a kill fee

05:51 So I created this small magazine. This was like in 1988 Wow before a lot of your listeners were born all that yeah, I was I was three years old oh Yes So, yeah. I needed to put it somewhere so I created this small magazine with nothing much more than a... Like I said, I didn't pay for it or anything above and beyond that It was simply just a matter of taking some good work and making sure somebody else got to see it besides me and Ram Dass At that point then that became kind of a catch-all for everything that wasn't getting paid but had intense interest in

06:32 For instance, shortly thereafter I became fascinated by Wilhelm Reich a naturalist scientist in the 1950s who lived with Orgone Energy. So I was writing stuff about that and it was there was no reason here to get it published. Although, interestingly enough just today I was writing a tribute thing for Jim Mosley who used to publish Saucer Smear and he died recently and Tim Beckley's putting together this collection of people's thoughts And going through the research on this I discovered...I forgot about this but I discovered at one point here in town one of the local radio sports anchors

07:16 was killed by her husband after the guy read Listen, Little Man by Wilhelm Reich. So it's this weird murder connected to Reich but this was of course before Steam Shuffle Press number two which was a compilation basically if my research on Wilhelm Reich up until then and then the third part or the third issue I spoke to Amiri Baraka, who is like the only black member of the beat generation. His name was Leroy Jones and he changed it to Amiri Baraka and I did an interview with him And that interview actually got published but there was more to it than got published so then I put that. At that point what was going on in the subculture of conspiracy research

08:01 Was that may brussel died. They Brussels was the maven, the queen of conspiracy theories to guru of us all she died and the major journal that's being published at that time called critique the publisher there found a guru on his own. Self-help guy named Robert Lemasters. So critique was changed to living fire and it all became the homilies of this This new age guru, so that was gone may brussell was gone critique was gone And it just seemed to me that the whole thing was falling apart, the whole idea that there is a subculture of critically thinking people that can see through the crap that mainstream media tries to put out there and try to dig at little conspiracies that are actually going on. It seems to be that was disappearing and I would just do big of a tragedy to let happen so... Of course! At that point I put in a call for papers

08:56 in the last page of Steam Shovel Press number three, and I said I described the situation. Conspiracies we need to write about conspiracies. I want to hear from you. I'm going to continue to produce this magazine only we're gonna instead of just being things that fall out of my regular work i'm also going to do a directed thing to make some kind of conspiracy publication, Gadfly publication still remained out there. Very cool! I mean it seems like you've been going strong ever since and for people who aren't that familiar with your work it seems that your current focus has been this link between the lesser-known Maury Island UFO case and the assassination of JFK's subject to one year more recent books JFK in UFO and I had never heard of the Maury Island case until I started looking into units

09:47 a great one. So if you'd be so kind, give the people little lesson on the Murray Island incident 101 Yeah, isn't that weird? I mean you're certainly not alone in not knowing much about Maury Island. There's only been one book on the subject there was an early edition of my book but the book that i have out now is the only one that goes into detail and the basic...the big headline underneath it all that should you would think would attract many more people is that the guy that was responsible for the initial UFO cover-up when they started seeing UFOs in the late 40s The guy who was responsible for the cover-up is most likely the grassy knoll shooter in the Kennedy assassination. I mean, it's nuts! You know that is quite nuts and... And the historic trail is as solid on that as almost anything you're going to read in a history book. Maury Island happened in 1947, a few days before Kenneth Arnold started uh saw his uh he was flying

10:45 over Mount Rainier and he saw these chevron shaped craft and That was the beginning of the modern UFO period supposedly that's when after that is on the wave when people started seeing them all over But three days before that there was this instant instance out in a harbor near there in Tacoma Washington infusion South where these guys in a boat it was a salvage boat In lumbering, you know they chop down trees and they transport them through waterways And every once in a while the trees a tree will break loose You know that I branded and stuff right but a tree will break loose. So these guys I mean they weren't government people They were there's a privately run Harbor boat That would go and salvage these logs and check out the brand and take it back to The logging company and collect a reward that's how they

11:37 made their living. So they're doing this one day and these saucer-shaped things show up above Puget Sound, there's like a half a dozen of them that are all circling one that is wobbling once having trouble up there and it starts spewing out some junk onto the boat and uh...the boat is owned by a guy named Harold Dahl His son is on the boat with him and their dog is on the boat with them, and a couple of other people. The son gets struck by some of this slag and his arm gets hurt. The dog actually gets killed by some of it. And they have this whole incident. One of the saucers taps the wobbling one, it straightens up and they all fly away. They have to take the boy into the hospital, throw the dog into the harbor...

12:29 Totally freaked out. I always hear this stuff described as slag, but what what is that? well there are two substances a white and a black one and A rock like material it was really superheated When it struck the boat instructing people okay some kind of like molten metal like mold But it but hardens enough that they were able to collect samples Because what Harold Dahl did at that point was he went to tell his partner in this harbor patrol boat business of his. And even though the boat is registered in his name, we've got the registration in the book, The boss of the operation was his partner, this guy named Fred Chrisman and he goes to tell Chrisman and Chrisman comes down and says he sees a saucer himself, a different sighting but then but that one flies away

13:26 But together they collect this slag. So what has ever happened, you know? Well however it was formless and hot, you know it's described as hitting the water and releasing steam so with hot Okay okay I just wondered how because it seemed like a liquid And I wondered how they kept it in you say a Kellogg's box and also why would you keep something that killed your dog But I guess if it, you know that makes sense if it was a heat thing and then it hardens and becomes something you can carry in a box. Well you have to remember this is before the UFO wave! This has gotta be the weirdest thing that ever happened to these guys That's also another good point as to why...to the legitimacy of it He doesn't have a lot of references for craft-in-the sky that he could just try to get popular off of Right right exactly they're just collecting this stuff because

14:13 supposedly, it's just a weird thing that happened to them and here's some proof of what it was. And they certainly didn't realize at the time that Kenneth Arnold himself was hired to investigate their story and that's where they took the Kellogg's Cornflakes box. That's where Fred Chrisman took the Kellogg's Cornflakes box And Dahl brought samples and they showed them to Arnold. They told him the story, I showed him the area and Arnold didn't know what to make of it either so he called the Air Force The newly formed Air Force actually the Air Force hadn't existed until like almost right up this moment but these two investigators

14:52 Davidson and Brown came from, you know representatives of the Air Force came out talked to Arnold. Arnold had Chrisman bring out his Kellogg's Cornflakes box of the slack and he gave it to Davidson and Brown. Davidson and Brown they don't know what to make of it either they put it on a b-25 and they're gonna fly it back to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base to test it to see exactly what the heck is their plane crashes Through some obvious act of sabotage both of those guys are killed everything is dropped after that so Fred Crispin loads up this weird stuff onto the plane that crashes and kills these guys and At that point from that point forward there is no real investigation of the Moy Island case There still has no real investigation in the Moy Island case upon

15:47 I think it's the LOFI website, this is in Kelso Washington that an effort needs to be made to excavate this place because the plane crash is still there and we can still investigate. Wow! That would be fun. Yeah but it didn't happen then so Krisman clearly involved in the earliest of UFO cover-up operations And then boom, you know 1963 comes around. Chrisman kind of disappears at that point and then he doesn't reappear until 1963 where he is grassy knoll shooter now I say he is and that's just the it's my opinion that he is although It is mine and other people would have other opinions but there was also the opinion of Jim Garrison and Jim Garrison is the only guy who took a prosecution to court over the Kennedy assassination

16:41 He was the subject of the Oliver Stone movie. Most people, you know who Into the assassination from the early 90s forward know it through Oliver Stone's movie Yes Yeah And that's about Jim Garrison case and Jim Garrison himself felt that Fred Krisman same guy involved in Moria was The grassy knoll shooter and what evidence is there to put him on the grassy knoll on that day? I There's photographic evidence for one thing. That'll do it! Yeah, there is a famous thing in the JFK assassination lore are the tramps—the three tramps that were arrested in the rail yard behind the Grassy Knoll

17:22 and kind of paraded out. And the photographs are interesting too, I mean these are two guys that they suspect might be involved in the assassination but you see them being walked through the street and you know the cops guns are facing down and it's all kinda a very casual thing. The identity of these three tramps have been investigated and labeled as different people at different times But Garrison's point of view was that one of the tramps was Chrisman. Now I show these photographs in my lecture and pointed out side by side, I could show you the one that looks like Chrisman surely does look like him

17:58 Garrison took this photograph actually, and this gets into popular parapolitics which is my book on pop culture conspiracy. But Jim Garrison went you know it was a highly controversial investigation into an assassination that had been publicly closed you know the Warren Commission said it was a low nut here's Garrison got really famous and notorious for challenging that so he gets on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson and explains a few of the things. And at one point he takes out the Tramps photograph, and is just about ready to say this man here is Fred Crisman! But Johnny Carson shuts him down before you can say it. Really? Yeah. You know most of the... A lot of the Carson shows were destroyed including that one but an audio copy of it exists so you can hear happening I've got that sometimes play it that if elected

18:51 But yeah, Johnny Carson was the man who prevented Fred Crisman's name from being nationally known as the shooter it's interesting isn't that that whole situation is not was not in the original theatrical release of Oliver Stone's JFK movie but if you get the home versions now there is a scene that had been cut out and John LaRocque plays The giant Carson figure and they reenact that whole thing. Whoa, that's pretty awesome Although Chrisman again is not really mentioned in all over stones movie either because remember Garrison's case was was not against

19:28 it was against a guy named Clay Shaw. Garrison, you know he figured Chrisman was that was the trigger man and he was trying to get at the actual conspirators of the power elements that were behind whole thing right yeah and the only person that he could make a case against was this socialite named Clay Shaw who did have some involvement with it but obviously you know it wasn't enough to convince a jury or Garrison wasn't able to make the case But the final point to be made about that is that, you know and that happened in 1968. In 1977 the House of Representatives conducted another investigation into the assassination and it concluded that there was a conspiracy And that became the official and is still the official conclusion of the U.S government That there was a conspiracy

20:22 The assassination involved a conspiracy and the original Warren Commission conclusions that there were three shots from the book depository was wrong because in those hearings they came up with tape that demonstrated it was the fourth shot. It was all still up in the air, and nobody knows that either because at that point when that happened it was buried in the backs of newspapers across the country. There were several reporters that said there were three shots. Now science has determined there were more, people investigating have determined there were more but it seems like the people who said the presented narrative as it was meant to be on that day probably knowing it wasn't true or maybe not but the people who are willing to say they're only three shots fired, they all seem to have pretty prominent careers after telling that lie. That's exactly right! That is a really interesting point

21:23 Well, you know the media is still the same today. They basically just take the press releases that come out of DC or from whatever authority and kind of re-read it. There is no real investigative reporting going on anywhere on anything. So, same Ben. Same essay. One of the big things that people look at when they see the Zapruder film is that his head tilts the wrong way I mean that's-that's the evidence to where the shot came from and you also tell a story of a reporter who was talking on the radio and purposely was deceptive about the direction of Kennedy's head to make it fit a little cleaner with this official story And that man, of course everybody would know today It'd be Dan Rather

22:05 I have the audio of that too. I've got that in a tape loop where he's describing Kennedy falling forward, and if he doesn't fall forward it gets hit from the front and falls backward. And you would think that if you were running a news network and someone couldn't tell the fucking direction of a person's head then you wouldn't want that person presenting information anymore they're not a credible source you'd think you get someone else Right, and at the time of course Rather had no idea that the film itself was going to be presented on television. It didn't get put on television until years later when Dick Gregory and Robert Grodin brought it to... who's that guy? Yeah, Geraldo Rivera show

22:49 Yeah, and that was the first time it was ever shown. So Rather's thinking that nobody is really going to get to see this. It's just a re-report. Right. So you can just lie about it? Funny thing! But let's talk more about Fred Christman. He had this supposed first UFO sighting in that time and then he supposedly is the grassy knoll shooter... Who is he? What is his role? Who is he employed by? Are there any other interesting things about him? My god, yeah Well, you know the book goes into great detail. Chrisman is actually on the scene even before Maury Island weirdly enough he was part of there were these pulp magazines published by Ray Palmer called Fate and amazing stories, you know a pulp magazine. Yeah zines They're kind of like

23:41 Comic books before pictures. I don't have science fiction stories and all that stuff it one of the things that this publisher ray palmer put in his over our stories about something called the shaver mystery And this was a kind of legend created by a welder in Pennsylvania, a guy named Richard Shaver who said he was picking up signals from his welding equipment and learning all these things about this underground civilization called the DEROS. D-E-R-O-S for the detrimental robots and people and Palmer published this stuff

24:19 People, his audience around the world started writing stories saying yeah I've seen those creatures and the creatures really seem like the little grey aliens too that people talk about. And so he would publish this in The Letters column and Fred Krisman was one of the letter writers and he talked about encountering the Deiros in Burma and getting some kind of laser beam shot into his arm even though this is before the laser was invented You know, if you can describe a technology before it's even out there. I mean that gives some credibility Well, Chrisman though was on the scene even before that There was the first article ever on a science fiction convention appeared in a magazine called Harper's Weekly and Fred Chrisman's interview He's one of the people there he said science-fiction guy And he's just telling about how how neat it is to be at a science fiction convention weird Yeah So what's like? Is he like uh, was he a conspiracy investigator or paranormal investigator turned

25:13 CIA operative? Well, he was a veteran. He fought in World War II and in Korea he was reactivated so he was an army guy and science fiction guy. Also, he was a worker at the Hanford nuclear reactor up there in the Pacific Northwest which gives us another interesting little piece of this history because the guy who approved his job application when he got that job is a guy named Mark Felt. Mark Felt is now known to history as the informant deep throat to Woodward and Bernstein, Watergate fame. So you've got that connected up I mean then the curious thing about that also is that Mark Felt was a writer

26:07 for television shows too, a consultant and writer like a lot of intelligence people are. And he wrote or consulted to a program called the FBI which was a Quinn Martin production company. Quinn Martin also produced a program called The Invaders with Roy Finnis and Chrisman made the claim in 68 that this story of the invaders, which was architect David Thinnes sees actually a very well done

26:44 Adamski craft. I don't know if you know George Adamski, if you know your UFO lore but he sees this craft one night it's a flying saucer and he sees the aliens and he knows the aliens are there and his premise of the show is that he's out to fight the alien conspiracy and Chris has been saying this is my story, this show was about me and people go nuts But here he is, directly connected to Mark Felt because it's Felt who got him the job at the Hanford nuclear reactor and its felt as a consultant to the Quinn Martin Productions which makes The Invader. That makes sense to me! It definitely makes you think. Yeah so its not just an historic trail but its a whole architecture that holds up the premise

27:30 And one thing I wanted to address about the Maury Island case is, I've talked to a few friends you know and just bullshit. I'm like talking about what's going to come up on the show and I mentioned it and I was met several times with the response that I thought that was dismissed as a hoax so i feel like we should address that because you know you... A lot of people think it was a hoax You don't and I think you have a pretty good reason why What would that be? Well when I look at this The man's light that will go into the men in black visitation. Okay, so that's what I was hesitating because i'd already given you so much lore uh I love more but here we go yeah this is the The idea that it was a hoax reason people think it was a hoax or one of the reasons Outside of the fact that everything connected to ufo's as a hoax You know people who like to think of themselves as critically intelligent people aren't going to you know take anything seriously It's all a hoax other than that

28:26 Harold Dahl, the victim of the Moynihan case said it was a hoax. He originally came forward and he was telling everybody what had happened and then all of sudden one day yeah the men in black show up this is the beginning at the Men In Black phenomenon and they go to him and say you will stop talking about this or bad things will happen to you." And he was like, well that's a bunch of crap. And he kept going telling people as many people as he could about what had happened to him and his wife fell ill after that the son who had the injured arm disappeared and was gone for months and months and they found him He was abducted or something and they found him in Wyoming somewhere

29:09 Without without memories of what had happened to him and that kind of thing and all this all those weird stuff started coming down on Harold Dahl so at that point he said okay I'm a believer. It was a hoax If anybody asked me it's a hoax, right? if you can look at those things in his actual life And you know determine the downward spiral I see validity to that yeah Another interesting thing about Harold doll is that The three tramps in the rail yard have official arrest records. There are official people that they say it was and one of them is a guy named Harold Doyle, which if you say with the Texas accent... Harold Dahl. Yeah yeah That's funny But that's just a coincidence

29:56 Right. Well, you know you have a line in parapolitics that I think is great and you say there are two schools of thought You're either a conspiracy theorist or a coincidence theorists night? I think that's great I find that all the time and a big part of why but heads with some more conventional people Is this issue of how much weight you put on coincidence That's really all we're talking about And even that can be a slippery slope though wouldn't just say oh Yeah, yeah. Well I mean it's part of... You know I've been lecturing about Maury Island and JFK for a couple of years now and part of the way i'm pushing the story forward in making my lectures is examining this whole idea of coincidence and synchronicity and what role it plays. I bring with me now these episodes of Route 66. I mentioned one but there are actually two well actually there are three

30:43 Right. What else is interesting about that? Well, another episode of Route 66 opens up in Fort Worth at the Fort Worth Airport where Kennedy flew in that day. One of the guys again it's George Maharis, the Neil Cassidy figure gets a job with The Trademark which is where Kennedy was going to before he got shot. He was supposed to give a talk at The Trademark and Dallas and then at some point one of the characters gets on phone starts talking to Earl Cabal who is the mayor of Dallas And it's his brother Charles, who was a CIA operative who was fired by JFK for his role in the Bay of Pigs. It is Earl Cabal who changes the motorcade route from where we're supposed to be going to the road in front of the book depository and the grassy knoll. All this is written into the script of this Route 66 episode which was broadcasted 1962 – a year before the assassination

31:38 It'll make your jaw drop. I mean, you know we talked about Route 66 the invasion? That's one area that i'm really interested in is that crossover between Hollywood and conspiracy or Hollywood and real events What would your explanation for that be? Have you come to any conclusions regarding why that takes place?" Well, it could be any number of things. There are people that really get into these mystical connections of coincidences and synchronicity. My old friend Robert Anton Wilson who wrote the book Illuminatis made great use of that in his books. Another writer, James Shelby Downard is well known for connecting up all these coincidental elements that connects it connects the assassination to masonry and all that stuff so there's that going on but there's also this idea that uh and John Judge tried to make this clear to me John Judge runs the committee for

32:36 a committee on political assassinations. The big JFK, RFK and MLK activist group run out of Washington DC the people that are going to be putting on the big protests there this year in Dallas And John Judge was a student and close friend of May Brussels, and he's like one of the stalwart guys in conspiracy research. His view is that these intelligence agencies are going throughout the entertainment industry, and they try out things. They come up with an idea that maybe they can pull off, then put it into script to see how it works out!

33:13 And so you can see time and again that things that happen are kind of predicted in the media. I ran into this when I did, you know...I'm kind of known for this book called The Octopus which is based on the Danny Casolaro case which involved a software called The Promise Software that was Shanghai and used in something called the Inslaw Scandal That idea was put into an episode of the Lone Gunman, which was this you remember The Lone Gunman was like a X-Files offshoot show. Gotcha Yeah there were three guys who published a zine and their first thing they investigated Was the software that was being put into a plane that was being set up to crash into the world trade towers And this is months before the Trade Tower thing happened

34:05 Just oh that was months before yeah, just months before Wow same year as I goes March of 2001 it is crazy I mean even and more recent times you see in the Batman movie in the Dark Knight movie. Well, we're shooting right That's well. That's what's happening with Sandy Hook, you know the killings in Sandy Hook. You go to this Batman movie and there's a scene in the Batman movies is a map next to a cell phone and the map says Sandy Hook! Yes. And so we got this...and there was a developing line of research that all of us had to do with a banking scandal called LIBOR, L-I-B-O-R. Yeah yeah! And the hearings for that were called off after Sandy Hook and that the parents of the killer in Aurora and some of the kids in Sandy Hook both of them are somehow connected to this LIBOR scandal and what's really going on is big cover up with that

35:03 Right, that's kind of what I was gonna ask you is if what you thought the motivations were for that because there's people who say it's a false flag to usher in stricter gun control. There are people who say is an Illuminati ritual killing and then right there's that that LIBOR scandal situation where both John Holmes' and Adam Lanza's fathers were apparently set to testify That's just what I read on the internet Like, what do you make of all that? Because I don't see... If they're set to testify in the Libor scandal. I guess it could be like a punishment for them like hey we're gonna make your kid We're going to mind control your kid into being a patsy for this brutal massacre and that's all fine and good but what about the people that wouldn't just kill his kid and say now testify

35:47 Well, the idea was to create these situations that become more important than any kind of investigation of some obscure banking scandal in England. Good point, a sexier story. Right so I mean all that stuff just gets dropped because everybody else is paying attention to it That's why i think the one thing that it's not about Is the second amendment argument or gun control Because there's too much attention being paid to them That has got to be the false dialogue people want us to pay attention to cover up something else So it seems more likely than something like this That's a great point. You mentioned Wilhelm Reich earlier, and something I wanted to get to is another story in that popular pair of politics—great book! It was very odd…was the Cloudbuster canon? Can you tell us about the Cloudbuster canon? Oh where to begin... Well Wilhelm Reich was a protege of Sigmund Freud

36:46 during the early days of development of psychoanalysis. And he came up with his own theories about character structure that are still very important texts and people, you know go into psychology or psychiatry there they're always still required to read character analysis by Wilhelm Reich but when He was first exiled to Norway, where he started doing experiments that tried to establish the underlying energy force in life. Those were the Bion experiments. He left Norway and came to America and at that point his research developed and he started calling this energy Orgone

37:26 And he started creating a technology on how to develop it and how to use it. There were orgone boxes, and the idea was that people could sit in the organ box and charge up their life energy and come out of it much healthier more vibrant kind of thing as that technology developed, he created the Cloudbuster gun, the Cloudbuster cannon which was supposed to operate on the environment. The way it operated on people, the purpose of the cloud buster was to slowly gradually increase moisture in desert regions to fructify the earth and make it less of a wasteland but what happened

38:07 And I just covered Bill Helmreich's whole life there. That was good, that was good! So I urge everybody to not listen to me but just take me as a cue to go read Reich for one thing whether what right was wrong or nuts or whatever read him he's brilliant one way another just read him if you want understand psychology but what happened there at the end was that when he created these weapons, he brought them out to the desert. And one interesting fact is that in his last book Contact with Space he talks about

38:44 going through Roswell, New Mexico. This is 1955 it's actually an argument I have with a lot of ufologists and a lot of skeptics who believe that the Roswell was a product you know that something happened in 47 but the people forgot about it and then in 1980 Stan Friedman all these guys saw an opportunity to exploit it and bring it back well this is not true because Roswell had long impact that's measurable in history long before 1980, long before the resurgence of interest at that point. In 1955 Wilhelm Reich takes his cloudbuster guns through Roswell New Mexico talks about the alien environment the dry environment starts coming up with this idea that this is what the aliens are doing and they're sucking the living energy out of the earth for their own sake

39:31 And it's not a big part of contact with space, but it is clear and it was clear from other passengers that he heard the radio reports about Roswell. It's clear that he's going out to see what kind of impact whatever this alien connection is having on the Earth. So in the process of doing that, well actually even before that in Maine, UFOs himself flying saucers himself and he started pointing the confessed guns at them and They start to blink out. So so you got the idea that, you know, maybe You know, I mean theoretically to him it may be Redirecting Oregon stream toward these UFO would be one way to battle them Yeah That's what I read now is like that is so interesting because I mean It must mean that he was seeing them fairly frequently

40:24 Yeah, and across the country. I'll tell you what another pop culture parapolitical dimension to this is a movie called Earth vs. Flying Saucers, you ever see that one? I have seen that it's pretty low budget if i remember yeah well it has special effects by Ray Harryhausen who was like famous for being one of the greats It's all black and white right? It's black and white it's a movie in the 50s they load up these clodbuster guns on the backs of jeeps and fight flying saucers in that movie and they finally capture one of the aliens and the aliens walk around with big

41:01 helmets on, they remove his helmet and it's a Roswell gray. So there is more proof that Roswell was not off of people's minds. It was... I mean that was the movie getting wine distribution and you have Roswell in there and you have Reich's cloud buster guns are quite clearly Lewis It's almost every time you turn around. I mean, I found references...I found Roswell Graze in a Japanese cartoon called Prince Planet from 1965. Weird! You know things like that yeah well you know we're talking about aliens let's-You've been involved in this for a long time. You've been writing for a long time longer than I've been breathing and have you-

42:08 Well, you know it's a good thing in this case. But have you ever tried to map out a timeline of alien human contact? Like what does that look like to you do we think that they're just visitors who even our own governments don't know what's going on or are they in contact I mean I've heard the Eisenhower story probably most fascinating story right yeah Do you think any like what's your timeline for alien human contact if you had to bet when it started Well, I mean of course you got the alien ancient aliens idea. You've got the reptilian idea I mean that that's a possibility could have started forever ago, but okay all right Let me answer it this way is not a non mainstream theory That aliens have visited this planet and had been Manipulating it in changing it This is a theory that was put forward by Francis Crick Watson Crippen Watson the guys who discovered DNA on

43:06 Yeah, correct idea was directed panspermia that life itself on this planet was brought here by aliens You know and I don't know if they're reptiles or bug-eyed aliens or whatever but it's not a non common sense view. It is a mainstream point of view, so it's actually something that I'm beginning to realize more and more that you know because because I work underground mostly in a counter culture, I assume that most of what I believe is kind of unique to me believed but it's not! You know like I said the Kennedy assassination? Most people 99% of people understand that was a conspiracy and the government itself believes

43:50 aliens manipulating human genetics and interacting with Earth people, that's Francis Crick. That's mainstream science! Yeah what an interesting conclusion for him of all people to come to... strange The guy who understands life better than many others So I offer that out to everybody who probably like yourself certainly like me who gets derided as a conspiracy nuts and You know flying saucer Wacko, but it's not wacko. You know We're normal people and this is normal mainstream science and also normal mainstream not politics But parapolitics you know right? And I have heard you talk about that Eisenhower story It's it's very interesting That's the only story I know of of a president

44:42 communicating or meeting with some type of extraterrestrial race. There's also a Wright connection there, there is a diary entry that actually if you look at Eisenhower's schedule he goes to Rangely Maine Shortly after that alien incident and it's pretty clear that he had some kind of meeting with Willaum Reich. And there is other documentation, there was something called the Cutler-Twining Memo That is in the National Archives I've held this document in my hand and it says they are rescheduling a special studies subcommittee of MJ12. The MJ12 papers are another big part of UFO lore But there was another researcher

45:26 of the biography of a British diplomat named Lou Douglas who came up with another document that talks about Reich getting a meeting with people in the government on that precise day at the Cutler-Twining Memo. So it's not just two pieces of documentation, it's like triangulation of research you know? Yeah yeah So, there's a clear indication that the government had an interest and they had an interest in Reich. And you know it is nutty as it all seems. It was something that was truly going on. Yeah, it seems to me like at that time

46:04 from probably 47 on, it seemed kind of like the government was scrambling. At one point they're trying to suppress all this information at the same time they're trying to gather their own information from people like Reich or whoever doesn't think that this is completely ludicrous. It's really- Yeah they're trying to put a lid on it you know? They're trying to own all the information and stay on top of it What more do you know about the Eisenhower story? It's really interesting to me, but it also seems really hard to believe because if there is an alien race coming into this planet how did they get in contact with the president without having a mass sighting. Without a mass disclosure How did he get in there that deep Do you know the answer to that? Well...

46:51 What's the best way to answer that? I can tell you one thing, though. The full story as far as I understand it with as much documentation as I can bring to it appears in Secret and Suppressed 2. Eisenhower and the aliens. And it's like anything else, I mean secrecy has been practiced particularly in the national security state you know been practiced and done well for many years and developed so it doesn't seem to be so unusual that Well I guess it's unusual in this way. Think about us, think about if Mars was a civilization that couldn't reach us and we wanted to go and make contact with them how would we

47:34 infiltrate their system in a way that we meet covertly with the one specific man who actually is in charge of things without just hopping down on the planet and being like, hey you know here we are let's talk to some people. Does that make sense? Like how would you infiltrate their network when you don't speak the language, you don't know how the government operates, you might not even know what a government is it seems odd they could streamline that communication and keep it quiet Well, you might not but then again you might. I mean if the aliens are intelligent and one of the big theories about Roswell is that they became attracted to the Earth after the atomic explosions out in the desert

48:17 So, you know so they're monitoring what's happening. The idea that they are monitoring communication that they can figure out the bureaucracy actually human bureaucracies are really kind of easy to figure out who is the boss and well let's say you know and then if you sending down people that you know men in black swords you know to interact make connections that way it makes a certain amount of sense. That kind of description, the alien activity does seem to be something out of the 50s though you know? The post close encounter view is that it's all gonna have to be pretty obvious. Yeah right that's true I don't know... It's an odd thing yeah if you want we can do a whole program on that one Well that's what then I wanted too but I was wondering if there was enough meat on those bones

49:07 Oh, there's plenty. There's plenty and you know it all really has to do again with going back to the biography of Wilhelm Reich. You know people said he was crazy and he died in prison because up until the time he died he felt that Eisenhower was on his side. Yeah that's kind of sad. And I'll tell you interestingly enough just in terms of word rhyming a guy who's into Reich is Eich, David Eich I think it's a book called The Biggest Secret, where he prints the first few pages of Contact with Space which is Will Humbug's famous last book.

49:45 Rick, or Ike actually is also somebody who's really kind of cued into coincidences. That's how he started his career. He used to be a BBC sports writer and then some weird set of coincidences and synchronicities happened to him and got on this path that he's onto now. So it's part when I bring up the Kennedy coincidences and the coincidence between that and the more island case I mentioned also that David I can sin is as some interest in that also Bob Dylan in the last Interview that he gave a rolling stone. He starts talking about his a famous incident rock history where Dylan got into a motorcycle Crash, and it was off the scene like at 1966. It's off the scene for many years But there you know, it was a second Robert Zimmerman who died

50:35 In a motorcycle crash at the same time, Dylan goes off about this in the rolling stone. He starts talking about how it transfigured him that there was something about the amalgam of coincidences and those situations that. Kind of freaked him out. And Kenneth Arnold himself was a student also of coincidences, he used to carry around in his wallet the Lincoln-Kennedy coincidences you know those right? Yeah yeah Kennedy had a secretary named Lincoln and Lincoln had a secretary named Kennedy and blah blah blah. He was killed in... Kennedy was killed in a Lincoln Right, and Lincoln was killed in Ford's Theater. Anyways yes there is a whole list of them and Arnold carried that around he also his own book which came out 1952 called The Coming of the Saucers which is about the Moravian case He never autographed a copy for his daughter Kim Arnold until November 22nd 1973

51:30 just to put it into the pattern. And so Kim Arnold actually sometimes makes the lecture stuff at the UFO conferences and she talks about all of that, but one coincidence that she doesn't bring up is the coincidence of Fred Krisman being such an important part of her father's story but also him being the grassy knoll shooter because I'll bet...and I've sent emails trying to find this out, but I'll bet Kim Arnold doesn't know that Just like most Americans don't really know that, uh, you know, Chrisman has been figured as a grassy-milled shooter and that's practically the government's point of view. Yeah, that's interesting I mean a lot of people we're getting down kind of to the end of it but a lot of people

52:12 have this idea in their head, or I think it's kind of like a surface level conspiracy that Lincoln was killed in public and Kennedy was killed in public and it was done for the reasons that they were both trying to mess with the currencies in the country you know, loosen the stranglehold from international bankers. And it makes sense. It definitely does when you look at the money always follow the money and so you got to think that that plays a role but that's not really the conclusion for the reason of the assassination that you come to is it? Well no I don't actually...I think what happened with Kenneth...the reason one

52:51 Certainly, anybody like Kennedy who was progressive and wanted the best democratic processes to prevail in his country was at odds with the money establishment. But my view is There are certain dollar bills that do not say Federal Reserve on them, and people hold that up as proof that Kennedy was trying to get us away from the Federal Reserve. But the fact of the matter is those are promissory notes meant to retire the debt of coins. Coins contain silver, and at one point because of the price of silver in the market it was worth more than a coin!

53:36 they issued these promissory notes just basically to retire that obligation and take silver out of the coinage. So, that... That almost seems contradictory! That almost seems like a move towards more fiat currency which would enslave the country more? Right yeah well that's what I'm saying i don't think you know if Kennedy was Certainly, Kennedy was opposed to secrecy and oppressive government. He had the example of the communists that he always worked against. you know, whatever was going on between him and the Federal Reserve I'm sure is worthy of study. But in that particular case, you know, I don't think those dollar bills prove that. Yeah, you don't see that as a necessary linkage? No What you do point out is the contracts with Boeing Is that the reason why he was assassinated? Because we didn't talk about the actual reasoning Oh well, Boeing... yeah, you know, Chrisman also worked for Boeing at one time

54:42 Another interesting link. Kennedy, remember was reversing what was going on in Vietnam because it was clearly that that was the wrong path for the country. The first thing that LBJ did when he assumed office was to reverse that process, to stop Kennedy's de-escalation but in the process of de-escalating, of course Bell Helicopter Boeing all the arms manufacturers were taking big hits It's the same story, it's follow the money just a different angle instead of it being so...

55:19 Huge as to be a slap against the Federal Reserve, you know You can think of it as I mean Boeing's got a shady past and not I don't see why they would have any problem hiring an Assassin that killed the president if they weren't getting their contracts. I mean I could see Halliburton doing something similar for Obama for whatever reason was to be like Alright everybody come home right now Ryan He'd probably be dead too But of course when I went Obama got elected I said two friends, you know, I was like hey this guy is talking bold I felt like Hillary was supposed to be the establishment candidate and maybe he won out because of the internet. And, as the only way to know for sure if he's legit is if he gets assassinated It's a shame and it's a very sad and cynical view but I mean here we are Well, I said something actually kind of similar to that in a blog from my publisher Ferrell House which publishes JFK UFO

56:06 But before the election I said it an assassination is going to somehow factor into this election And it was shortly after that came out when the Libyan ambassador Was assassinated and that hung like the sword of Democles over Obama's campaign until the word went down and and Romney didn't use it to any great effect, but they could have had a large impact on assassination You know yeah Man, and this before we get going I mean this seems like a pretty basic question but you've been a professional archiver for many years and a thorough and leading researcher in conspiracies. How would you educate someone in the art of taking a curiosity they may have about an event? And being able to actually do the research into things that are thought to be unattainable

56:53 Oh, that's an interesting question. Okay well there is in one of my books it says how to be a researcher there's a chapter and the book is called parapolitics not to be confused with the current kindle book popular parapolitan but I have a whole article about how to do research through the freedom of information act It's like anything else yeah it takes patience and time and some intelligence If you know of an incident, get the names. Investigate the lives and start making the connections. If there are documents to be had, locate the repositories that have them. How do you do that? You've got so many more tools now online to do it!

57:37 That I ever did when I had to do it that is true. There's also more bullshit out there, right? Yeah, the signal-to-noise ratio is worse than it used to be but Use your archives. Primary sources are the best, but primary sources are the things that they cover up with the most passion. The smoking gun... the document that proves one thing or another is likely to have been destroyed so a lot of times all you have is implications and inferences and the approach I've taken And it comes out of my association actually with Timothy Leary, whose philosophy was one of pure intelligence. Of gathering data and letting the data speak to you. To not look at it from a

58:27 radical posture that you're a leftist and you're going to expose, or well You're right-winger and you're going to expose the government that way. Just look at the data And then what is the data telling you? So in order to do that you have to collect the data so you just collect it from every source and it doesn't really matter how outrageous It is because at some point you're gonna have to do a triangulation of the data and whatever is speaking loudest to you, it's likely to be as true as anything that can research. That's a tough road to hoe. It's very hard for people who like I said have been doing archives work for 25 years

59:09 It's my job 40 hours a week to do stuff like that, usually on much more banal topics. put out some Freedom of Information Act requests. I feel like my hands are tied a lot, and i love doing this show! I love talking to the researchers but i'm just like man...I kind of like to get out there and do something? Dig something up?! I don't know well yeah it's exhilarating particularly you know if you have questions you know I was five years old when Kennedy was assassinated And the country has been screwed up ever since that point.

59:57 And he's like, oh yeah. He's like well first everybody does but secondly he said I had a paper route and on that day I was going around delivering papers and every person who I gave a paper to would come out and be like did you hear what happened? No no what maybe like Kennedy has been shot Oh my god! I can just see him right dad going door-to-door acting like he had no idea Getting the news from so many different people. Well, as I said, compare and contrast to 1977 when they finally concluded it was a conspiracy that didn't make a single front page headline Back in the back of the papers and you know at that point, yawn. But this you know I mean and that's not even the end of the story but it's closer to the truth of the story than it ever was when your father was a kid right? But he was still like oh my god! The president was shot?! This is...the world's falling apart you know and clearly they came up with a war commission thing just

1:00:51 try to shut people up and have an official conclusion that you can fall back on, but nobody was... it's not easy with anybody. One other thing, one little fun thing I wanted to throw in before I let you go. I hope not keeping you too long... One event that happened this past week-I haven't been able to talk to anybody about it or get anyone's thoughts on it and You seem like as good a guest as any and that event is the meteor crash in Russia And I saw video that you had posted on I think the Steam Shovel Press Facebook page That showed what looked like a UFO busting up that meteor in the air What did you think of that video? Well, you know I That's kind of why put it out there. What do you think of it? Yeah? I thought it was interesting if you consider the line of thought that That ets are here to help us and sort of guide us and keep us from blowing ourselves up because there's a lot in ties In with the nuclear facilities and UFOs hovering over them It seems kind of it seems like it fits the bill that a UFO would

1:01:52 smash up a meteor to make smaller pieces so it doesn't completely destroy a big chunk of the Earth. Well, you know that other asteroid that was coming close at the same time got within...got closer to the Earth than most of our communication satellites Yeah, what's the deal with that? I thought they could see these things coming from a year away. And now they're all happening at once too right? Right if this would have been just two months ago this would have been a whole different mess December 21st 2012 but a whole different mess But yeah right but the point is though that there is a level of secrecy that it's attended to everything having to do with advanced technology and space travel and you know there's the moon hoax theory and all that other stuff

1:02:36 It's there and reading NASA press releases doesn't get you closer to understanding what actually happened. I agree with that. Well, Ken, that about wraps up our time together. I've had a great time. Let me say one more thing on the theme of popular parapolitics. Of course! Again, this is the 50th anniversary of the JFK assassination and so far only two movies have been announced that are going to be coming out in the fall about JFK. One of them is with Tom Hanks. It's called Parkland and you know that's gonna be Forrest Gump meets Kennedy assassination right? And it's about what happens at the Parkland Hospital The other one...and I don't know this much about it but I know it's gonna be THE movie to watch! It's called Dallas & Wonderland

1:03:25 And one of the co-writers on it is Adam Parfrey, who's my publisher. He runs Feral House and James Shelby Downer is supposed to be in it and its going to all about various theories and things. It sounds like I'm hardly gonna do it. Its a mystery to me so its not gonna be fascinating movie So if you're looking November comes around and your not at Dallas where ya should be If your a Kennedy assassination person at all we should all converge on Dallas and the 50th anniversary What event is going on? Cause lets tell people cause I think people should you know, start getting involved in some way. Yeah, people are converging on Dallas. I mean there's a lot of is that going down you see men earlier protesting in Dallas right? Well the coalition on political assassinations in Washington DC You can find them in a web search The guy who runs that as John judge finding my web search they have been talking to authorities and Dallas because the authorities in Dallas had been discussing some kinds of ways to put a clampdown on

1:04:24 what's happening there this year of all years. They have a ceremony every year and protests every year, but this year they're kind of worried about it so the judge has been talking to Dallas authorities about what is really going to happen in terms of negotiating for people not getting their heads beat or whatever. So that is what I would recommend to people look up committee on political assassinations with John Judge and you go to their front page and it will spell out exactly where people are going to be in Dallas. That'll be in November, right? Yeah, November 22nd. Nice! Cool well I also want you take a minute to let the people know where they can catch up on your latest works and keep up with you and Steam Shovel Press on the web

1:05:07 Well, Steam Shovel Press Facebook is probably the best thing. I just really kind of got up on Facebook and having a lot of fun posting things there in ways that couldn't do before but there's also steamshovelpress.com the website which now occasionally update and one other things on that website actually is video lecture I did once in the Mojave that has to deal with comic book artist Jack Kirby Who among other things had a strong role in what happens in this movie Argo? Although Kirby's name isn't mentioned and anytime you see anything by Marvel Comics They hardly ever mention his name at all. He created every one of those trademark properties that are making billions of dollars It's a you know, Kirby is one the finest comic providers to ever take up pencil to a book

1:05:57 Page and is his heirs do not see a penny of that so that's a conspiracy I like to put out front of people So you can order that through the website? And that is something. I learned from from you and in popular parapolitics, and then I went and Researched it a little bit But I guess Jack Kirby was working for Stanley Stan Lee was his editor and just was like oh these are great Let me take these and now we have Stan Lee as the famous creator of the all Marvel superheroes. That's fucked up! Stan Lee is nothing, he did nothing. Nothing, nothing, nothing. Statistically irrelevant whatever it was he did. Jack Kirby created all that stuff and it's a crime you know? It's another corporate crime you know? There are many right

1:06:43 So anyway, I have a lecture about that you can get through steveshowpress.com The Kindle book is called Popular Parapolitics If you don't have a Kindle then you can download software that gives you the ability to read the book on your computer And you know the book is cheap too because it's not really a book It's just a kindle The current...the actual book out there you can purchase at a bookstore. It's called JFK and UFO, and it's all about what we've been talking about many more connections I never do it justice always feel even after the best of interviews I always you know God didn't say this just a ton of information in that book And so I recommend actually your ears then I think it pretty much covers the basis There's a gmail account at this website if you want to contact me directly

1:07:38 Very cool. And I'm so happy Adam Goehrle put us in touch, it's been a real pleasure your wealth of knowledge and information. I respect the painstaking monotonous job of being a true researcher and you along with plenty others deserve all the respect in the world So thank you sir and keep fighting the good fight. Well Thank You! Thank you. All righty have a good one. Alright take care Thanks for listening people that was Ken Thomas I'm Greg Carlwood and this has been another episode of the higher side chats if there's a guest you'd like to see on the show just Facebook me or you can email me at the higher side chats at gmail.com Please share and review the show. It is the new currency of the digital era, and I really appreciate that if you by chance have any real currency left please check out my T-shirts at conspiratees dot net And a new THD should be available every Sunday So please keep us on file and remember we're all God's children enjoy your fucking day Walk into the club like what up? I got a big cock

1:08:39 I'm just pumped. I bought some shit from a thrift shop Ice on the fringe is so damn frosty, the people like Damn that's a cold ass honky Roving in hella deep headed to the mezzanine Dressed in all pink except my gator shoes Those are green drapes and a leopard mink Girl standing next to me Probably should've washed this Smells like R. Kelly's sheets But shit, it was 99 cents! I get coppin' it, washin' it. Bout to go and get some compliments Passing up on those moccasins Someone else has been walking in by me And grungy fucking mint, I am stunting and flossing And saving my money and I'm hella happy that's a bargain bitch Imma take your grandpa style, imma take your grandpa style No for real, ask your grandpa can I have his hair me down? The Lord jumpsuit and some house slippers Dookie brown leather jacket that I found diggin Broken keyboard, I bought a broken keyboard I bought a skeet blanket then

1:09:28 Hello, hello my ace man Marmello John Wayne ain't got nothing on my fringe game Hell no I can take some pro wings Make em cool sell those So sneakerheads will be like Ah he got the Velcro I'm gonna pop some tags Only got twenty dollars in my pocket I-I-I'm hunting Looking for a comer This is fucking awesome Pop some tags Only got twenty dollars in my pocket Looking for a dumber, this is fucking awesome. What you know about rocking the wolf on your noggin? What you knowing about wearing up her fox skin I'm digging, I'm digging, I'm searching right through that luggage One man's trashed that another man's come up Thank your granddad for doing the Up shirt Cause right now I'm upping her stunt tip

1:10:13 I'm at the goodwill, you can find me in the ads. I'm not stuck on searching in the section ads. Your grandma your auntie your mama your mammy all take those flannel zebra jammies secondhand and rock that motherfucker. The built-in onesy with the socks on that mother fucker. They be like, oh that Gucci that's hella tight I'm like yo That's $50 for a t-shirt Limited edition Let's do some simple addition $50 for a t-shirt That's just some ignorant bitch shit I call that getting swindled and pimped Shit! I call that Getting tricked by business This shirt's hella dope And having the same one as six other people in this club is a hella dope Pete gang Come take a look through my telescope Tryna get girls from a brand Man you hella want Then you hella won't

1:11:03 I'm gonna pop some tags. Only got $20 in my bun, looking for a dumber. This is I'll wear your granddad's clothes, I look incredible. I'm in this big ass coat from that thrift shop down the road. I'll wear your granddad's clothes, I look incredible. I'm in this big ass coat from that thrift shop down the road. I'm gonna pop some tags on me got $20 in my punt looking for a dumber This is fucking awesome! Is that your grandma's coat?