THC 41: Trevor Aaronson | Terror Factory: Inside The FBI’s Manufactured War on Terrorism

00:04 In the 1930s, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed a nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the fireside chats. His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times. But we're in 1930 and I deal with a different kind of fire. For a new era of worldly frustration, we offer a fresh conversation! Wow, how's it going everybody? Welcome to THC. Drinking a little drink and smoking a little smoke I'm the man who calls himself The Carl Wood Thanks for listening thanks for tweeting liking and reviewing the show You're all bonafide pimps and i salute you for it! I'm moving some of the pieces around on THC so I'm gonna drop on you everyone's favorite ad For conspirites my attempt to bring conspiracy perspective out into the open Into the world A bold fashion It is also the best way to keep me alive supporting that little venture

01:00 So here's that, and on the other side we'll be talking to Trevor Aronson about his new book Terror Factory Inside The FBI's Manufactured War On Terrorism. Boom! We're here because we don't buy into the bullshit of mainstream culture. We're tired of the mundane passionless careers we've been shuffled into as a result of this orchestrated debt-based system of rule and the stranglehold on education entertainment by cold soulless corporations People yes, we are frustrated Yes, we are tired And we reject the grey-roofed tranquilizers that are Monday Night Football and an ice cold Budweiser. We have to stop hiding, stop hiding behind the headphones in the Cherry Popper 420 username Let the world see that resistance is strong and society is changing There was a time to be anonymous but that time has passed So The Hireside Chats would like to present conspirites as the dawning of this new paradigm in uniform of revolution Because bold fashion should mean more than some celebrity meat dresser frat boy in a silly pink polo

02:03 Conspiratease redefines bold fashion as having the balls to reject socially uncomfortable and unpopular truths from your radiant chest. All fucking day. conspiratese.net Let them know that you know, Bold designs for troubled times Hard Truths Softcock Folks it has been over a decade since the suspicious tragedy of 9-11 And it's hard for even the most conventional of patriots To argue that our response hasn't been at very least A bit overblown Yeah, we've invaded numerous countries ruined more lives than can be counted overthrown unconnected governments hung unaffiliated leaders spent trillions of dollars on corporate weaponry groped and degraded millions of innocent travelers confiscated hundreds of thousands of bottles of cologne and hair gel accepted the invasion of our privacy and invited our streamlined indefinite detention. Folks it would seem excessive even without the looming doubt of the official story

02:57 Unfortunately, the culture of fear stemming from that single day has done damage to this world that will last generations. A fact that hits home much harder when you realize the majority of paranoia-causing terror plots over the past 10 years have not been planned in some foreign cave in the sand but instead by overeager agents and FBI cubicles. Today's guest Trevor Aronson is here to walk us through just such a realization with his new book The Terror Factory Inside The FBI's Manufactured War on Terrorism Trevor is a winner of over two dozen awards in journalism and his trajectory is looking stronger than ever. You've seen him on Democracy Now, Russian Times and This American Life and I'm happy to welcome him here to THC. Trevor how's it going? Great great thanks for having me! Absolutely thanks for being here wow what a great book man. I commend your work in such a taboo area making a career out of government criticism seems to be riskier and riskier these days

03:52 I think we do see, especially after 9-11 there was a real skepticism of the press or unwillingness by the press to really be skeptical of these types of cases and the FBI's counterterrorism program in general. Right. And so to kick it off, in the intro I ran through quite a few of the negative consequences due to the war on terror Now most tried and true patriots would respond by saying everything that government is doing is justified because we've had no attacks since But would you say that's a naive way of looking at it? i think if they do know it's true that we we haven't had any uh... attack them with their there but a couple of close calls you know i don't make the case in the in the book that they're they're aren't aris at all and if you look at magical about the he can put them on your publicist without nine and vital should not fail then his attempt to bob times square two thousand ten but you know majority of cases that be

04:46 department of justice in the fbi have brought into federal court uh... for terrorism charges that i love it haven't been like not to go about the and fight us is that you can't instead they've been you know what i would consider people on the fringes of society better economically desperate or in some cases mentally ill who get caught up in a asking operation involving an fbi informant who offers them all the needs opportunity they need to give an active terrorism you know with with the fbi fears today this trained well-organized fellow care like we thought eleven other parts of the world but they'd really fear it someone who could be

05:23 they consider a lone wolf. Someone here in the United States who doesn't have a specific connection to Al-Qaeda, but becomes inspired through Al Qaeda jihadi videos and extremist message boards to commit some sort of active terrorism. And so these thing operations are intended to lure these people out, to find the people who are on that line as an FBI agent says about the crossover from sympathizer to operator And they do that by inserting informants and undercover agents, and budding them up so to speak. To people who say they want to commit an act of terrorism, and then providing all the means necessary. Logistical means sometimes the idea itself in almost every case they provide a bomb or weapons. So most of these people

06:05 who are prosecuted on terrorism charges and to the federal government puts forward in press conferences as being a dangerous character without that without strike never have the capacity on their own for terrorism most cases they never had weapons of their own in in those cases they had very little money and so it's hard to believe that on their only would become terrorist but three elaborate sting operations the fbi is able to kind overnight transform them into uh... you know someone at the public starts to leave with a dangerousness right and some of these stories are are more shocking than others. The range is pretty wide on how susceptible to terrorism the Patsy really is, but run us through these numbers because the book says there's been about 508 people charged with having terrorists planned since 9-11 what percentage of these quote foiled plots could be considered in some way FBI manufactured?

06:55 Right, so in the decade after 9-11 there were a little over 500 defendants in NIN terrorism cases and of those 500 about half were involving informant. So in some cases the informant acted as you might expect he provided information to the FBI but in other cases and more than a hundred fifty cases the informant access uh... what's at the media provocateur he provides not to play the role of the state operation in some cases the provide the idea another key to keep you provide amin anything operations there they're never anyone you know by themselves who's capable of terrorism it's always the fbi informant to get recovery to make that terrible possible you know a good example of this is uh... at a particular known outside new york city none of the new berg for these are four african-american converts to islam

07:45 thanks to a very aggressive informant, they engaged in this plot to bomb synagogues in the Bronx. Well it turns out that the lead defendant on the case and the case was a Walmart stalker who had a history of mental illness had no money on his own and it was the informant who ultimately provided everything they needed that he provided the transportation because they didn't have cars he provided the money needed to build a bomb making it at the divide about making material he provided you know how to build the bombs and all of them the defendant had to do with this plate the bomb in front of the synagogue which they did but on their own either guide that were on the printed this is a human they had no interest in you know commit no ability to commit terrorism on their own and in addition to informant providing all of the means he offered help offer number of inducement he offered them into it fifty thousand dollars carried forward in the plot and into the lead defendant he operated by the barber shop and so if you don't have to keep them at the director robert bowler has

08:42 decided repeatedly to congress as an example of the fbi thwarting uh... pending terrorist attack but in truth that pack that a packet only made possible through this elaborate sting operation where the fbi basically empowered you know group of losers to overnight become terrorist means some of these cases he got uh... and for men who is paid by the f b i per terrorist, I guess. And they're finding people who are kind of online just running their mouth that have mental problems and no money and then they're stringing them along offering them money to do it and saying hey guys get this guy, I got one put the check in the bank. Exactly you know what? That's one of the most fascinating parts about

09:26 this story i think because you know the story ultimately the story about terrorism but it's also a story about you know justice and the fairness of justice justice united states in the administration that justice and we know what particularly disturbing acting is that so many of these informants involved in the state operations have a financial interest in the prosecution yeah they will get paid if they find someone who uh... you know they can portray as terrorist and at the sting operation because i think that the government department make a hundred thousand dollars or more per case and so what when you have that kind of incentive for it you know if you go out and find someone uh... who said they want to commit active terrorism and bring them along the plot there's gonna be a lot of money waiting for u forty p m you know that credit that create the recipe where you're going to have a lot of these cases because informant is going to be very aggressive in finding people who are susceptible who are easily influenced

10:16 and then guide them along in a process that's part of a sting operation where from day one they have little capacity, and by day 90 they have a bomb in storage units. And they're ready to deliver it with the informant It is crazy, and one of the most shocking stories in the book to me about someone becoming a Patsy in the terror plot was the story of the Albany pizza man Mohammed Hossain. Walk us through that case so folks can better understand how this happens to people. Right, so the FBI was interested in this man who's a local imam in Albany New York named Yasin Aref

10:52 and they needed to find a way to get them so the uh... they ended up targeting local pizzeria owner nima hamada andy fbi used this very aggressive informant named shahed hussein i didn't think it could be that they were both similar but in in this case mohammed hosting you know it's going about life he'd actually built a nice life for himself in that state yet several rental properties uh... successful pizzeria he cared for his whole family as well as his mentally disabled brother and um... the fbi chose target him because they want to get closer to me the imam and muhammad hussain was a of area devout muslim and with active in the local mosque and big they divide this plot where they were going to loan to mohamed hussein uh... money

11:37 that he needed to repair some boilers at a rental property that he had. Essentially, the FBI informant told Mohammed Hussain, well I've got this money coming in and I'm an importer-exporter from China and you know I've gotta move this $50,000 dollars, I'll give you 50 thousand dollars if you pay it back over time. So they agreed to do that. what the fbi do with that will come to a state being a very developed love them would want uh... a local religious leader to oversee the transaction which is customary as well and just to make sure that the at the financial uh... transaction meets religious standard into the fbi undercover agent said the mohammed hussein well you know i don't wanna be in and i don't wanna pakistani overseeing this and um... any fed that for a very specific reason which was that that only left one other

12:26 Muslim religious leader in town and that was Yasin Araf, who was an Iraqi Kurdish-Iraqi. And so Yasin Araf is brought in to oversee this financial transaction and during the financial transaction the FBI informant holds up a trigger device for a missile which it's really hard to tell if its a trigger or not because it looks like an oversized label maker and he's saying things about mujahideen and making a number of comments that are somewhat nonsensical at times. But that was enough for the FBI to build a case around both of them for money laundering, for supporting terrorism. And Yassin Araf was convicted as was Mohamed Hossein, and Mohamed Hossein is serving at least 15 years in prison

13:07 but this is a guy who never had any specific connection to terrorism. The evidence suggested that it was very unlikely that he realized the money he was funneling was supposed to be related at all to terrorism, there was a rather odd moment where the FBI informant shows Mohammed Hussein a service-to-air missile but then tells him later that you know he's an importer exporter and he knows an FBI agent and its all legitimate and the bottom of it with that but the impression that well that we're going to be importing weapons but if you don't think he doesn't have to get any company legitimate there is a legitimate business in importing export weapon uh... and you know this was a case that party outreach the community in albany um... and i would not be good but without the both of them you can convicted and neither of these men were at all involved in any plot that within minutes in any unit erica organization that

13:58 pose any sort of threat to the United States. The only connection to terrorism was a rather distant connection for Yassin Arraf where allegedly in Iraq they found a list of names for a group and Yassin Arraf's name was on that, but that is all the government really had and it is all they have been able to release publicly yet they were still able to get convictions from both these men Yeah, it is really sad because the guy's just working in his pizza shop an informant shows up. He's given toys to his kids he's telling him you can get his mentally challenged brother a An ID card and he's just injecting himself into this man's life. He didn't seek them out And uh you know then he's like oh well You need a loan man while I can help you out? And I guess he kind of thought because of the relationship

14:43 Religious connection like maybe that's why he is being so nice, he has got the extra money but you know to just be turned around and thrown in jail for 15 years. A lot of people think this can't happen to me and I'm sure there is also a little bit of culture racism when it comes to the prosecution but its not that far off from just happening to anyone they decide throw into that plot and it's really worth noting that the evidence suggested that the informant they used in targeting muhammad hussein with a far worse criminal than muhammad hussein ever could have been you know that the informants had hussein was accused of murder in pakistan and fled the country uh... he was then running a dmv scam where he had several people who worked at the DMV

15:25 he helped a number of immigrants get driver's licenses that were fraudulent so they could use them to become cab drivers in new york uh... there's evidence that while he was declaring bankruptcy he did declare the court five hundred thousand dollars he had an overseas account you know all types of things that you are or criminal and he would be able to keep those criminal charges because he agreed to work as informant for the fbi and then ultimately you know how did muhammad hussain is part of this case and you know now she had a pain to continue to work with the fbi he he makes a hundred thousand dollars or more per case that move was from case to case both an economic incentive because you can make a lot of money with met with the fbi but also kind of punitive one unit that if i'm here for the fbi key doesn't have to worry about taking any criminal charges for what he's done in the past

16:10 Yeah, and you call him in the book, you call him the super informant. And he is such an asshole because if he has a culture of doing this to people for his paycheck...and obviously you said it's worse criminal than anyone then most people he's getting mixed up in these plots He's just a guy hungry for money and he found a way to get it Yeah, I would have to mention in the book that it's important to understand that informants are not nice guys. They're usually worse than the people they target. Stephen Schrod who is a judge and a district court appellate judge at the federal level calls informant sociopaths and I think that's a great description for them because

16:52 basically do what most people would hate, which is that they have to go and every day lie to someone. Then over months and even years build up a great friendship with someone and then be willing to turn on that person and send that person to jail for decades. I don't think Something that anyone other than a sociopath could really do in good conscience right and it doesn't always end well I mean if you ever seen bulletproof. You know that right yeah, I mean these Ultimately, the FBI is important. In using these informants... The good ones are never going to be good guys. So ultimately almost every one of these informants has some kind of baggage. The FBI in many of these state operations has used criminals. They've included drug dealers and in one case they included a man who was wanted in Albania for

17:42 for shooting someone and another case included a child molester you know it did yet the i'd really be just about anyone at an informant uh... which really read the question how they go to our we've really uh... are we using people who are worse than that of the people were targeted at me every everything bigger fish to catch smaller one potentially right another point about com Muhammad Hussein was, you know he said to you when you visited him in jail his kids are now without a father growing up without guidance. That's the kind of action that creates someone who wants to do damage to this government taking away someone's father You know? That's what- that's a... you're gonna want revenge for that not necessarily that his kids do but we have to be careful of like What we're doing to people these are real lives

18:28 it's a good point to raise because it really raises the question of blowback. What ultimately will happen as an unintended consequence of these policies? And certainly some of these men that we're sending away for 15, 25, 35 years that were caught up in a sting operation on their own unable to commit acts of terrorism... It's not unreasonable whether upon their release from jail in their 40s and 50s, they will be so angry that they will actually become terrorists that on their own 25 years ago they never could have become. I think it's one of things to see And let's look at the other side of informants because there is also, there is the criminal informant but there is also a lot of intimidation and blackmailing that goes into creating unwilling informants in the Muslim community while using some type of various leverage to pressure them into finding something just to get the heat off of him.

19:21 right you know the best thing to compare this to in some ways but it's important compared to that it's a different is how the fbi investigated yet organized crime eighty for example they could never going after the italian mafia organization in those cases the way they recruited informants with a look for people who are you know below our level mafia soldiers who were we're committing crimes minor one like instilling a car and if you get back i bust up for stealing a car any freedom you know if he worked with us we can make that that's a stolen car theft charge go away and you can get out to work with an informant. And that is how they recruited these informants well if you are recruiting in the Muslim community it is alot different than recruiting from within organized crime organization, you know in these cases people who are law abiding people going about their day working everyday jobs going to the mosque on Friday You know your not gonna catch them

20:11 stealing cars and so it in this case the fbi needs to build up its capacity for intelligence in muslim communities and it does that by using what leverage you can't even the moslem community immigration tends to be the greatest form of leverage right now we what we see is uh... them with a number of cases at the fbi working to create closely with ice immigration and the threat of deportation as leverage to recruit informants. So these are people who didn't violate any laws, if they were facing possible deportation that's a civil issue not a criminal one and in these cases the FBI uses that to say well unless you work with us your going have to be deported or we know your looking for family over from Syria if you work with us will make

20:58 If you don't, they probably won't be able to come over. that's an extraordinary form of leverage that the fbi is able to use and it has been incredibly effective. Today, the FBI has 15 thousand informants who are working for it which is ten times as many as they had under Hoover. Some of these informants are like I mentioned Shahed Hussain who was a criminal who played as an agent provocateur in these sting operations others are providing information under duress acting in sting operations under duress as a result of immigration threats To point out another one of his methods that really does, because I'm sure some people are like well you know it's got to be pretty tough to get mixed up in a terror plot but it really isn't. It even came out in court that he uses code words for missiles that he makes up only he knows the person he is talking to doesn't know. He called it chaudry. Like oh yeah I am transporting some chaudries and your guys was like okay whatever your going to give me $50k dollars? And he was paying them back too! Its so unfortunate

21:59 and in the memo line there when he was paying back to put you know loan repayment together for the evidence that jackie thought it was a lot uh... there there is very little evidence to support the idea of that the two defendants uh... mohammed hussein in a few draft knew which how greenland you know it's clear that he would be with you did not work but it would unclear that even do it out of bed um... and anyway dot look at a pattern to you don't later she had been saying that payment format which is in the paper case i mentioned earlier with these men were plighted on pedagogue to the bronx and that case unplugged during three trial testimony it came out because of one of recordings she had been paying offered them in two hundred fifty thousand dollars to carry forward plot and i'll be able to take back up government side you're going to bring me a bribe income would go forward at this big operation and actually had been paid fed well that was a code word and uh... the defense attorney after well who knew that could work and so everything had to admit

22:53 well he would be a little bit of that code word or it's obviously about the cover to be revealed i don't know that and you know it was it was clear in both of these cases that jihadist and with doing anything things whatever he needed to do to make a prosecutable case that to me that specific case was the most shocking but digging through all these documents in cases yourself what did you find most troubling or surprising you know i think in some of these cases what the what i found troubling with the fact that as a visionary that they use people who were worse than the people they were targeting for example they can get Seattle the that child molester who ultimately targeted two men who are mentally ill one of them had to go back to the store which indeed had trouble distinguishing between reality and fantasy but obviously someone who uh... it's going to be very susceptible to influence of an informant non-planetary could be no what about the shocking was just

23:45 how little the capacity was. One of my favorite cases, for lack of a better term is this man named... they're sure you can in a direct with this guy who lived in illinois and he'd be taken for the people of educated parents and family ostracized him for it and he was working at that video game store didn't have a place to live as car had just broken down so there could be like the worst possible situation you can make it possibly be and informant come through the video games or if it's a yeah no i know you know you don't like to live you don't your cars broken down but it is it would be You can use my car, I've got food. You can just stay with me." And Derek, because it was the day before Ramadan thinks this is a sign from God and goes and lives with his informant. Over the course of months, the informant encourages him to move forward in that plot to attack a shopping mall. This was an idea that the informant came up with.

24:38 They talk about it and Derek is saying some pretty hateful, odious things. But the problem for the FBI's case was that they needed what was called an overt action. They had to get him doing something that wasn't...that was more than just talking about it. And so they decided well let's see if we can get him to buy grenades for the attack exhibit the big problem for the fbi but that they are quite flat broke you have any money and to be informed that uh... well you've got people stereo speakers right but what it would have been took this to me arms dealer and i think we could get him and said he will give you the period speakers and you'll give up that at five thirty two o'clock a fair trade and uh... you know of course is ridiculous on its faith in i don't know a lot about black market aren't doing that i don't think that articulate that except to battle areas because for now but i need at least four

25:24 it's a good and so they end up going to uh... the market shopping mall in their practice too stereo speaker that hand them over to undercover agent is putting out an arm dealer any undercover agent handed back before but and uh... the fbi rushes in and arrest him ultimately he convicted uh... of conspiracy the weapon of mass destruction uh... and it's not serving twenty five years in prison obviously you know derrick sharif on its own with his two spare gold stereo speakers never could have obtained a great aid never would have been able to move for an apology at that time so what i find most disturbing is their cases like that where

26:00 ultimately men like a sharif are convicted and sentenced according to sentencing guidelines that were designed for true capable terrorist soviet but the fbi by in empowering him by giving him access to these grenades alternately put him under sentencing guideline but on his own he never could have committed a crime that would put them there at the unit to me that a great example of the fbi really just empowering someone to become a terrorist who on its own you know was probably incapable of even minor crimes Right and in regards to some of the misguided youth and mentally unstable There's a comment in the book made by one of the defense attorneys And he says something like this whole mess could have been avoided if the FBI counseled individuals rather than encouraging them I thought wow it seems so simple doesn't it?

26:45 absolutely not actually i'm in portland oregon right now and there's a trial going on involving this that many mohammed mohamed and you know that the great example of the fit for the guy who you know it's about radical belief that he wanted to get involved if you have somehow and these undercover agent came to them but are you interested in you know do working out of uh... plot with us and andy fifty f any talk about how they want the bomb pioneer square in portland and uh... the fbi to totally give him everything you need to go yet it no people money but the addicted from apartment fbi if and i think three thousand dollars to pay a back rent so he fictional uh... jeopardize the state operation they then provide the bomb everything you need to try the car it right everything and ultimately he was born plot

27:28 but that's an example of kid he was nineteen at the time when the operation started who probably could have just been scared out of doing something like this you know in the middle of a thing operation if the fbi said boo we got to do it what are you doing here instead of letting him carry forward with the whole time i don't think that the guy who initially would've become a terrorist but right now the fbi did elaborate being operations puts you know goes all the way and get them to committee fantastical act you know the pics these exacted paris on that if they were real would be horrific but when i have a bring up to a jury there just like so overwhelming that in most cases there they're getting convictions for the paper well another side is uh... you know the cozy relationship between government media one of my favorite samples in the book about how that works is because of liberty city seven what was so sketchy about the uh... the timing of that event

28:19 Right, so this was under the administration of George W. Bush it would have been his second term in office and as you may recall that The New York Times had written a number of stories about government overreach and spying on law-abiding citizens using powers that were given to the Bush Administration after 9 11 You know, one example of that. You may recall one of the examples was warrantless wiretapping and being able to listen in on conversations without a warrant. In another case in October 2006 The New York Times was about to release this story about how the Bush administration was also getting access to bank records without warrants with the same type of violation and they'd worked together for days

29:03 with the bush administration saying that this is a story of coming out in your time really did due diligence and telling them what we have what's your response to the day it's coming up well-fitted today before that story about to come out there did you take out the prosecution uh... indictment seven guys in Liberty City, which is the poor section of Miami. And the accusation was that it was just over-the-top to begin with. Alberto Gonzales said that these seven guys were going to declare ground war on United States of America, which obviously out of its face is ridiculous. seven guys in the poor section of Miami. And then the other accusation was that they were plotting to bomb the Sears Tower in Chicago, as well as the Miami office of the FBI and what became clear in the case early on was that these guy's never had any connection with Al Qaeda. The Al Qaeda connection was an undercover informant who was posing as an Al Qaeda operative and who was offering the guy $50,000 dollars to move forward with the plot

30:04 and the media you know immediately portrayed that uh... dangerous plot and ultimately where it was a factor for the bush administration with that by right now to get on the date did that push below the fold is very important here time story about the bush administration's use of uh... you know warrantless searches on bank records and in all the way took three trial to convict the liberty city seven uh... they only committed five of the seven in several that i've got really short sentences you know i should be short but it's a bit relative to terrorism sensitive seven seven years or so and anything like that on their own never had the capacity to make a return there never could have without p informant dot involved in a plot involving al-qaeda because they were never actually connected to al qaeda and yet did the media in many ways you know kind of parroted

30:49 exactly what the federal government wanted to in these cases and that's true of a lot of the terrorism cases you know it did it's true almost every kind of crime case early on with a but a crime including terrorism is announced the government has uh... had an efficient way of controlling the narrative because that first story and often you know if you'll be active information have come from yes and up and and and for that reason you know the media has been very kind of lapdog ish in its response to the type of at kate that you know they're not by dvd immediate portrayed it instinctually as here's another threat and it was thwarted epic that like fbi agents who were vigilant and only later if at all kinda comes back and says well wait a minute where these guys really terrorist can they really be terrified there are never in contact with al-qaeda you had your person who would seemingly did

31:38 with the undercover operative who was posing as a terrorist. And I think ultimately we are seeing slowly, you know, a shift in this conversation and I'd like to think my reporting has played some role in this but for example when Kvassi Nafis, the man who was accused of plotting to bomb the Federal Reserve building this past october with the involvement of an undercover agent in a depict paragraph about story whether uh... rather media explanation for your time to vote the criticism these cases and we weren't seeing that before you know about the previous six years of the people who are seeing that type of awareness by the media and my hope is that eventually you know which this conversation will ship further and the media will be more aggressive in questioning yet the idea jay about the efficacy of the type of paper

32:23 Of course, yeah you got a hope. What's the state of the FBI's terror factory today? Do you see these practices dying down at all like since 9-11 no it did the really right now is very little incentive for the fbi to pull back on these practices and and the reason for that it's a twofold but though the primary reason if that this is a bureaucratic problem in some way to describe of the book every year the fbi gets three billion dollars uh... to fight terrorism at the largest part of its budget that's more money than they receive organized crime for financial fraud for other areas that were traditionally the focus of the fbi prior to nine eleven until they can't

33:03 every year spent three billion dollars on counterterrorism and come back to congress and say hey guys we've got your three billion dollars and we did find any terrorist you know these these state operations are very effective mechanism for the fbi today hate we've got your three billion dollars and look what we found that this pair of public toward it but at that threat that exists and you know if it's if that it really doesn't matter of kind of focusing resources on a problem and finding more problems even if he focused three billion dollars of the fbi's resources in any area you'd find all kinds of problems depending on the area you focused on and then the other issue that's really important to get behind but they have a near perfect record of conviction on these trials uh... so did you know the only real check for the fbi in these cases is for the court to throw them out further to be lots of acquittals and that would cause the reexamination of these policies but right now we know of these cases there's a high degree

33:56 of guilty pleas given the very long sentences that come as part of the mandatory minimums. And then, so far there have been 10 defendants who've argued entrapment and they've so far been unable to win on that defense the eleventh one mohammed mohamed here in portland his trials ongoing and he's also arguing entrapment but yet so far didi dfb i think you take out the edited near-perfect records of conviction and and have had little reason to worry that these cases will be thrown up for a trap Well, like you pointed out the FBI gets $3 billion a year to fight terrorism. There are some estimates that say it would take about 2 billion dollars a year to end poverty. I mean wouldn't bringing citizens of the world up to a sustainable level do more to end crime and terrorism than any other possible action?

34:46 That's a good question. I mean to me if you have something to lose, You're not going to get involved in this the people who do are poor down on their luck they want excitement or attention But if everybody had you know the basic necessities covered like why would you risk that? Jail has to be worse than your life! And in some cases jail is not. I mean certainly the people that are caught up at these sting operations support that idea, because these are not people who are living comfortable lives with a good job and a house with a picket fence and family. These are people very much on the fringes of society who don't have many economic resources in most cases or are very poorly educated

35:26 don't have a great outlook on life because of their circumstances and you know that's in part why they're susceptible to this type of stuff either for their own hatred, in the case of the New York Four that I mentioned earlier. This guy was hateful and anti-semitic in part because he had this life where he spent an early part of his life for dealing crack cocaine. He then worked at Walmart and had very little in the way of economic power, and in so many ways had been disenfranchised. And so here you have this informant who comes to him and says hey I can make you a big man don't you want to be a big man? Like get involved with us on terror plots. A guy like that is susceptible but someone like you or me someone comes up to us and says I can make

36:09 big man you want to go with their but you know what i think about it here were called the police but there are going to be those people who uh... you know our government acceptable in that way and those of the people that are really being pulled into the sting operation did actually judge you oversaw one of these in trial that i thought he had a really great quote they equated at the book which is that unity these guys are so buffoonish that if they're really work out how to care about united states wanted to recruit people to commit active terrorism because we would have been bothered with I think that's a great example because these guys are a buffoonish and it is really only the FBI through these sting operations that would even care to empower someone like that to become a terrorist.

36:51 You know, like with the case of the Liberty City 7 that situation. It seems like the government is in this pattern of eroding some civil liberties getting a little more aggressive and spying and then it raises the public's eyebrow And then all of sudden that action conveniently is justified with some foiled plot You know, with NDAA a lot of people are wary that government media are pushing to blur the lines between a real terrorist and say a protester or in your case a real investigative journalist. Some journalists are really worried about that do you have any thoughts there? I mean i think as far as the definition of terrorism one of the cases they try to make it a book is we really have kind of bastardized and distorted this word so much these laws were written after 9-11 and before 9-11

37:38 material support laws. These were laws intended for people that were connected to sophisticated international organizations that had the means and the know-how to bomb a plane, for example or bomb a building or commit some horrific act of terrorism but through the evolution of these cases, you know we're describing as terrorists people that are just kind of buffoonish and on the edges of society and on their own who couldn't become terrorism. Terrorists! And so I think it's hard to know what a terrorist is any longer because it has been so distorted. You can see the same in in similar cases that that aren't related to islamic terrorism you know we've had a number of prosecutions involving environmental activists the people on the left you know that they need a four for example in chicago or these seven guys who plotted uh... yet he's so-called anarchist cleveland plotted along with bridge over the coyote river you know these are guys you know one of whom was mentally ill who had no capacity on their own and it wasn't format q provided them at the bottom of the needed to set up a bridge

38:39 and you know we're now portraying them as terrorists. And I think what the media has done or has allowed to happen is for the, it's really abdicate to the government the role of defining what a terrorist is and who a terrorist is so when the FBI and DOJ bring charges and they say this man's a terrorist, the media is happily to report so-and-so accused of terrorism and suspected terrorists in his name what we don't know if we do see some of it a real double standard we see you know for example people charged with islamic terrorism people on the left environmental activist so-called anarchist all being labeled as terrorist but then you know when there's sovereign citizens for example or white supremacists involved in plots that are ultimately

39:24 convicted, or brought to court by DOJ and the FBI were not seeing that label applied. And I think that's what makes it even more confusing. If I was brought up to testify to someone and they said can you describe what a terrorist is today based on the last 10 years worth of terrorism prosecutions in the United States? I really would have a hard time defining that Those type of tricks they use I thought I saw them happening in the Occupy movement the unfortunately brief occupy movement But they were infested with agent provocateurs You'd have one masked guy throw a brick towards the cops then all of a sudden he's gone but 100 innocent protesters are getting tear-gassed and beaten on The premise of them being violent it makes you wonder if change can ever really come about because of this kind of manipulation I think in some ways what we've seen here is

40:14 after nine eleven and with a focused on pay occupy or if you look at the sting operation involving that the apartment brandon darby with two thousand eight republican national convention what we've seen it's a lot of money for the federal government being earmarked for counter-terrorism that flow into the fbi as well local law enforcement and the truth is there are no bunch of muhammad autos running around united states together whoever just that uh... that But you have millions, if not billions of dollars flowing in the effort to fight terrorism. And so what ends up happening is groups that aren't necessarily targeted for ultimately become targeted for that type of surveillance and that kind of counterterrorism activity. I think that's why we see what we see with informants being used in Occupy, with informants being used, for example at the 2008 Republican National Convention

41:02 And I think in some ways, you know when a bunch of counter-terrorism money flows to cops there's this suspicion among cops that well these people on the left they're protesters. They must be up to no good. They must be on the verge of some sort of violence and I don't think it is necessarily wrong for the FBI to use informants in those groups just to use informants to get information to spy on them to some extent say like are they really interested in terrorism? But where I think the FBI has started across the line is by using these informants as provocateurs, as people who aren't just listening but are saying hey do you want to do something? Do you want to commit some sort of act of terrorism and I think that's what we're seeing more and more with the use of informants. Yeah there's just too much of a financial incentive for them but uh... You know with the increased surveillance in the erosion privacy that we find ourselves dealing with what do you say to someone who says well if he got nothing to hide what are so afraid of because i think that's the wrong attitude

41:55 Absolutely. You know, I think this is always... there's always a tension and there's always a conflict between civil liberties and national security so then the question is how much are we willing to give up on the civil liberty side to feel safer on the national security side? And I would argue that we're giving up too much you know in some ways the pendulum has swung way too much toward national security. What we have now if you look at national security under president obama since his term in office first term in office there's been an explosion over a couple of work with electronic wiretaps or what the fact surveillance where they're going into people email and looking for evidence that you know involved it security threat you know under current fbi guidelines

42:39 they can open up a call the threat assessment of anyone for seventy two hours which allowed them to data might go through your email to go through your trash to find out if there's any reason to believe you are security threats and they can do that without having any reason to believe that u r involved in any sort of crime they don't need what was but turned the predicate but every day read reasonable belief that you were involved in criminal activity. They can for 72 hours just spy on you, for the purpose of seeing if you are involved in terrorism and then after 72 hours they need that predicate and what we're seeing is an explosion of this, of the federal government using those powers to surveil people, look at their private information, look at their private emails all in the name of national security and I think what ultimately comes out of this a number of blowback issues. For example that's essentially how David Petraeus went down

43:28 right now that uh... because power so in fact i brought down the c.i.a director and yet you know i think it's important for people to realize that in the you know kind of made up of counterterrorism we've given the government a lot of surveillance power at that being used against everyone you know i mean you have to be a fusion centers in every state that collect information from local police agencies at collect let's play different it trying to figure out where people are going to the growing you know data set but the program has on everyone and i think you know they're there should be more inquiry about how much privacy and how much civil liberty are we giving up in you know the name of uh...

44:07 of fighting terrorism. How much are we shredding the fabric of our society in the name of protecting it, so to speak? It seems like the culture is going into a position where you're a suspicious person first and then you have to prove that you're not rather than the other way around That's definitely the case with these threat assessments, which I said are like these 72-hour periods where the FBI can basically look under every rock related to you. And all they really need is an informant, someone maybe who is a criminal himself, someone who has paid and says hey, you know, I heard about this guy Greg and he's interested in committing an act of terrorism. Then that's enough for them to look at you. That isn't enough for a predicate but it's enough for a threat assessment.

44:52 But you know, now that anti-terrorism has become such an explosive economic market do you think we'll ever see a post 9 11 world or do you suspect that whenever people start requesting rights back? We're just going to see some government made narrowly escaped terror plot paraded across the media to remind us to sit down and shut up. It's hard to know I quote Art Cummings who was the former FBI assistant director who created one of the architects for the Sting programs this kind of war on terrorism, how long can this go? And what the FBI believes is that we're not so much at war with Al-Qaeda as we are with what they term al-qaedaism. The kind of idea of al-qaeda and I said to them if it's an idea you know you can't really kill an idea how could he be at war with an idea? Of course! That's right. It's indefinite war and I think the FBI really believe that generational is no longer...that this a threat to us

45:48 the fear that lone wolves in the United States will become inspired by Al-Qaeda and commit some sort of act of terrorism. And so they need to be on guard for that, but the question I raised in the book is How much have we missed as a result of this focus on counterterrorism? If you look at the mortgage fraud that went on in the middle of 2000s, mortgage fraud was an area that the FBI prior to 9-11 was cracking down on. It was a big part of their business and if they weren't so focused on counterterrorism could we have caught some of the issues that became financial contagion in the middle of a decade you know i think that there are no question and i think that's what people should be asking idle i don't make it a very good every ticket terrorism is an attractive if they're going to be interested in terrorism it should but what did you make the case for i think that uh... the priority keep shift and i think they need to ship back to organize crime and financial fraud and you know that the typical things that the fbi was focused on prior to nine eleven

46:45 100% agree on financial fraud. I think that is the real enemy of today, it's just so unfortunate And it's hard for people to really understand to what degree terrorism is a danger with all the manufactured stories coming out. It's just hard to know, of course there is some guy somewhere who will want to bomb something but do we really need to grope everyone who goes through an airport because that could happen sometime somewhere? You're more likely to get in a car accident on the way to the airport

47:20 In so many ways, our counterterrorism policy and security measures have really just been reactionary. After the shoe bomber everybody had to take off their shoes and after the underwater bomber we limited the amount of liquids that could be brought onto a plane. How much of that is really effective? I don't know. I think that is a real question. But, also the FBI has been very good at dialing up the fear a little bit to the way it works these sting operations. When it works with sting operations, they could go for not very ambitious plot, something simple instead their targets go for extraordinary plots like bombing skyscrapers or bombing transit systems

48:05 things that are horrific and awful if they were to really occur. But I think it's worth pointing out that, you know... it's actually quite easy to commit an act of terrorism in the United States. If you wanted to commit something horrific, look at Newtown Connecticut right? It is one guy with a gun and assault rifle and some high-capacity magazines and he commits a horrific crime because 20 school children but we know the truth is that in the last decade we've seen more people killed through alone gunmen with that kind of violence than we have through so called lone wolves with Al Qaeda sympathies. The truth is that were not seeing you know these so-called al qaeda terrorist and all of that we're seeing which is in a random gunmen who pick up arms

48:49 I mean, we're kind of getting down to the end of the show now. But you know, you bring up Sandy Hook and my opinion of government is that the conspiracy and the outright criminality they go far deeper than even your work but at times it often hinges on anecdotal evidence or sketchy witness testimony so it is good to step out of that once in a while and focus on some good old-fashioned obvious and well researched corruption. I love the book! I thought the stories were fascinating. Thanks very much appreciate it Of course. Well, Trevor Aronson thanks so much for being on the show this is such important information to get out there it's great that you've been brave and dedicated enough to do it Is there any new or deeper direction your research is going? To be taking you next

49:31 No, actually we kind of hinted on that. The next project I'd like to do if I can turn it into a book is to look at how a lot of this money that's been spent on counterterrorism and surveillance for counterterrorism efforts is really being turned against people and invading their privacy. This is the next question for us. What is the future of privacy in an age of terrorism? And I think that's really something I would like to look at. I mean, that's a real concern because it just seems like problems we have like liquids on airplanes and taking your shoes off. When do these go away? These happen because one guy over the course of all history tried to do something and didn't get it done

50:10 It does seem a little ridiculous. Right, yeah there's definitely I think so much of the policy we've seen for counter-terrorism and so much of the policy that ultimately creates programs that invade our privacy are just reactionary it's kind of a knee jerk reaction to some kind of threat as opposed to being really reasoned look at what would keep us safer and how can we balance civil liberties with concerns about national security? Well, Trevor where can people keep up with you? Do you want to give them your website? Yeah my website is trevoraronson.com and my last name is spelled with two A's so it's T-R-E-V-O-R Aronson A-A R-O-N S-O-N dot com Absolutely and I'll put a link with the episode too! Well that does it for me thanks again the book is Terra Factory pick it up and learn something Keep up the good work man Great thanks so much for having me Anytime have a good day You do bye

51:02 Well there it is, another higher side chats in the bank. I personally see Terra Factory as a great way to reach someone who won't or can't go quite as deep as we usually do on THC and you really don't have to look that far to see if there's a real fucking problem and that really is the point. I think Terra Factory is just perfect imagery to describe what we have going on in our government And with that said, thank you for allowing me such an intimate place in your life for the past hour. I hope we can do it again! Please continue to share the show leave me reviews donate if you can read some of the blogs by my upcoming co-hosts and myself that will be dropping this week and check out the high quality and bold T-shirt designs i've come up with thus far at conspirates.net Here's a little dose of anti flagged get the blood flowing again...and I'll see on the Sabbath people

51:53 Die for your government, die for your country that shit! All that dying is so death Government says we don't know the source of its sickness What they say because their government is lying They've done it before and don't you know they'll do it again

52:52 I'm sick of tests, I'm a bill virus. I'm a test tube, called a little badger. You're gonna die, you're gonna die, you're gonna die for dying for your country and shit! You're gonna die, you're gonna die, you're gonna die for your country and shit! Cripes on our veterans slaughtered By generalizing power You give them your life They give you a stab in the back Radiation Agent Orange Tested on US souls Guinea pigs For Western corporations I never have, I never will Pledge allegiance to the flag of Guinea New Zealand! We're gonna win our country that shit! We're gonna die, we're

54:03 Die for your country that's shit! No, no! I don't need you to tell me what to be! Fuck you! I don't need you to tell me what to say. I don't need you to tell me what to think What the? What to think?! What to think?! What to think?! Think! Think! Think! God! Gonna die for your government, hey For your country that's shit You're gonna die, gonna die Die for your government, die for your country that shit!