THC 22: Martin Ball | Psychedelics & The Ego

00:05 In the 1930s, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed the nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the Fireside Chats. His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times. I'm Greg Carlwood and I deal with a different kind of fire. For a new era of worldly frustration we offer a fresh conversation. And these are the Higher Side Chats. Okay people, today I'm psyched to be having a higher side chat with Martin Ball He's the author of several books about life and psychedelics such as Being Human, Mushroom Wisdom and The Ethogenic Evolution He also hosts a podcast by the same name Martin welcome to THC Wow thank you very much for having me here

00:52 Can we start by telling the people how you got started with psychedelic compounds and how they've kind of affected your life and your outlook on reality? Okay, wow. Well that's sort of a long story but to make it short my first experience with what are called psychedelics or entheogens was after my first year of college and I was home for the summer and Going with some friends to a festival called gathering of the vibes in Northern, California Which was my first time ever going through a big festival like that? Very eye-opening. And actually as we were driving into the event Some guy was walking along the line of cars that people driving in just saying shrooms rooms

01:37 And the friend of mine who was driving the car, you know leaned out and said yeah Hey come on over here. And so he bought some mushrooms from this guy and you know looking back down it I think they were mostly just stems and We're not quite sure how much was in the bag or anything could I never? I'd never even seen a mushroom before I had no idea what they did So that was just my very first experience and that's kind of at the beginning of the summer Then I got into it over the course of that summer and did mushrooms a few more times. I was really amazed by the experiences, but shortly after that, probably in the fall or winter following that summer, I really started breaking through into psychedelic states of consciousness whenever

02:20 something would remind me of my mushroom experiences. So it would be anything from like seeing a patterned rug or looking at the shapes of leaves in the trees that it just set me off and that actually was very uncomfortable for me at the time so sure there was a quite a time period there where I did not use any in theogens because That was just really disturbing and I would really panic when that would happen And so my heart rates would increase and you know, I would I ended up at a cardiologist and I was diagnosed Heart murmur and stuff. So I was really disturbed by the whole thing But you know looking back on it now, I really realized that

02:58 Really I was kind of breaking through a lot of things and it just scared the crap out of me at the time because I didn't have any frame or reference for what was happening to me. And So that's where I started with entheogens, working with mushrooms and eventually I went back to working with mushrooms A couple years later and really had what I considered to be really profoundly impactful breakthrough experience Probably I think that was the spring break of my first year of graduate school. So this was now a few years later and That became a very foundational Experience for me and really was the basis for writing my book mushroom wisdom which I actually wrote about 10 years after that event that particular event

03:44 So I would work with mushrooms kind of off and on over the years. Generally that involved me traveling up to Oregon to see a friend of mine who lived up here, and visiting him and going out into the redwoods and taking mushrooms with him so he was kinda my trip buddy. Sure Along the way it was actually my first year at Burning Man that was 2001 Before I went to Burning Man I read this article in The LA Times about this crazy new psychedelic that people were getting interested in called salvia divinorum and how it was leaked. And you could order it right off the internet, and then they gave the website! I was like wow this is great here it is in the LA Times fantastic so... I ordered up some Salvia Divinorum from Daniel Siebert at Sage Wisdom and from there I had my first salvia experience at Burning Man instantly just loved salvia

04:43 It was just great. I mean the first couple hits, you know, I read that this is really strong and it comes on really fast so I took some really timid hits at the very beginning of that and nothing really happened So then I kind of packed another bowl And then I took a big hit and then it just happened, Salvia happened! I loved it, it was just so fantastic which later I was to learn that actually terrifies most people and yeah, most people who have their first self experience swear that they'll never go back to it again but i was just so Empowered I was so jazz. Oh, this is great is so great. So I worked with Salvia for a few years starting in 2001 and For a long time it really my only experience within the agents was mushrooms and salvia divinorum And also in that time period I started writing kind of on a whim I just decided that I wanted to write my own fantasy epic so I did and

05:43 That ended up being four books long and at the end of that after I wrote those books, I realized that I really had put everything that I had learned from Entheogens into those four novels. And so I thought well maybe I could extract some of this information and write a little book about what spirituality in Entheogens means to me? The product of my book, Mushroom Wisdom came out of that. So that's when I first really started writing explicitly about entheogens and then after that I published a book on sage or on salvia divinorum called Sage Spirit.

06:19 Yeah, so that's kind of how I got started in the field Also, I should emphasize that when I was a graduate student. I was in religious studies So right yeah That's what I was gonna ask you how that how it shaped because your opinion going from college had to be quite different I would assume once he started doing mushrooms and salvia yeah well III was um I Was a philosophy major as an undergraduate And actually before I was a philosophy major My split was am I going to go into physics or am I going to go into philosophy that I knew from high school that I was really interested in both those subjects. I was fairly proficient and calculus and things like that so, I really felt that I could go in either direction And at the beginning of college, I just found that I was so enthusiastic about my philosophy classes That okay will be a philosophy major and then after a couple years of that

07:16 I got more and more interested in religious studies because I found that in philosophy, I was really just getting dead white guys from Europe which was great. There's a lot of interesting information there but I was just more curious than that that I wanted to see what else is out there so I ended up going into religious studies and then as a graduate student, I emphasized Native Native American traditions. I actually did my PhD dissertation living at the Mescalero Apache Reservation in New Mexico so Native American tradition Shamanism comparative mysticism and the philosophy of science and religion those were really my main areas as a graduate student So it's kind of Kind of my own personal seeking was going out at the same time that I was doing all these academic studies And really just reading a lot studying a lot, I mean being a graduate student at UCSB was

08:04 Really kind of horrendous, you know I would just read sure much so much studying and reading and then studying languages. I studied Sanskrit for a while I taught myself Navajo so that I could learn Apache when I went to the Apache reservation because there's no materials on learning Apache So quite an experience being a graduate student And all the while kind of on the side doing my thing with With the medicines and then reading up on it within the area of religious studies as much as I could But at that time, there's actually a lot more material available now. That was out of the period where there were some materials on ethnobotany so it was some interesting things out there but not a whole lot written on the connection between religion especially the main religions and possible connections to entheogens and things like that So the field has shifted quite a bit by this point in time

08:56 Anyway, that's my sort of long story short But I guess I only yeah beloved but I thought I'd give you a chance to ask your question. No, that's cool Um well You know, I just got done reading being human which I thought was pretty eye-opening But on the subject religion you start off in that book by explaining away most traditional views God as false projections of our own ego and I think most people listening would probably agree with that but I mean Do you think these goddess like God is king concepts? do you think they were born out of our collective ignorance and a fear of death or do you think they're more sinister like a orchestrated perversion to Control society. No, it's just the natural byproduct of the ego You know The ego formulates all different kinds of ways of conceptualizing whatever wants to think is sacred and that just happens to be one kind of formulation that became very predominant within

09:51 First Middle Eastern societies and then spread through Hellenic and Greek culture, and then Roman culture. And then kind of infected all of European culture this idea of God as king I mean there is a lot of different ideas around before Christianity and Judaism in sort of their monotheistic view of This all transcendent all-powerful male god that ultimately gets pissed off a lot has a lot of rules that, that's all the projection of the ego. Just like all-all the different formulations are the various gods and goddesses they're all just formulations of the ego they set up a dualistic experience between someone who is feeling separate and isolated and then projecting outward some notion of some kind of transcendent other that they can look to and it just becomes a way that people formulate their identities in their sense of being in the world So I don't think there's anything necessarily nefarious

10:43 about it. Certainly, it plays in really well with male masculine hegemonic power and patriarchal domination. It fits great and serves society in that capacity for a long time. But you just kind of think it's something we just stumbled into? Yeah essentially. It is one of various possibilities. You know, it's such a natural reaction like take Buddhism for example. Early Buddhism Buddha is really really clear. He says Look, I'm not a god don't be worshipping me Don't be praying to me don't be looking at me to solve all your problems and you know what? I'm just a man who has figured out the nature of reality and guess what it's non-dual folks It's there really is no such thing as an individual self that whatever it is that you think you are That's not you that was kind of buddhas main message And also sure

11:36 and we produce our own suffering, our own unhappiness by the confusion of our ego. So there Buddha was really right on and he made it very clear that when he was dead He was gone And he's not someone that people should be praying to or something like that But then you know some 500 years later We get these developments of Mahayana Buddhism which is altering very greatly from early original Buddhism Which now develops sort of this? do-gooder kind of attitude, which is also an expression of the ego. When you convince yourself that I have to help everybody else well that's still a construction of your own sense of self and still exertion of your ego. And within that manifestation of this new form of Buddhism

12:19 Suddenly Buddha has turned into a god-like figure and now suddenly he's someone you can pray to. He lives in these heavenly realms, and he has these pure paradises And if you pray to the different Buddhas you can be reborn into these paradises Actually there are certain forms of Buddhism that say In total contra distinction to early Buddhism where Buddha said if you want to be enlightened, you have to do it yourself. You have to focus your mind and you have to figure it out and ultimately you have to do it on your own no one can do it for you but then later Buddhism like Pure Land Buddhism says We lived in such a degenerate age that we are powerless and so we have to turn to a deity That's transcendent and beyond us and pray and worship that deity So that we can be reborn in that deities paradise. And so here in Buddhism This is this ego movement away from really the stark reality The Buddha was talking about but hey It's up to you, and there's no real gods the way that you think of them involved here just suddenly Buddha gets transformed and morphed into

13:19 into this all-powerful male god kind of figure. It tends to be easier for an ego to form a sense of identity if it thinks that there's some all-powerful force outside of it, that they can put its allegiance into and put its belief in too. And it makes things easier for certain aspects of the ego to have conceptions like that so you know really true non dual traditions Something that's very very rare in human culture and most human cultures would much rather prefer to Worship a transcendent deity that exists outside of the self in some sense Because it's easier for the ego. So that's why That's the predominance in terms of religious constructions around the world there we see It's very rare that you find the individuals like Buddha or Buddha

14:17 Perhaps love zoo and Taoism that says hey, you know guess guess what? It's actually you and so you got to figure out who you are And you can't be looking at other people too or other entities or forces to solve that for you because That's ultimately an illusion. It's a projection that you're creating Right now that's fair I mean I totally You know, I totally think that people seek that out. I just kind of think that there's forces at play that take advantage of the knowledge that we sort of seek out some savior. Yeah, but that's human nature That's the ego as well that the ego is always going to use whatever tools that it has At its disposal too its perceived or imagined advantage I mean that's just what people do so

15:07 I'm coming to my own sense of realization that i really let go of all kind of judgment i am certainly very discerning so i make very strong distinctions between what i say is fantasy and what is reality but within that, you don't hold any judgement ultimately. For my perspective now i really appreciate the fact that Humanity is deeply, deeply, deeply confused. And because of that it makes all kinds of choices that are far from optimal but within that people generally they're just trying to do whatever is that they can and we can't really blame people for taking advantage of ego delusion because egos make it so easy So its kind like you're asking for if your going to play the game your gonna have to play the game and doesn't matter if you like the rules or not because I'll give ya that yeah

15:54 No, that's good. Another thing I really liked about being human in terms of your sort of philosophy it is kind of interesting because when it comes to your views on death you basically share the same opinion as an atheist and that you pretty much just go away but you're also have the idea that God is an intelligent being responsible for creating the universe So, that's kind of funny that you incorporate both of those views. Well I want to be really specific about it but its not that God created the universe, God is the universe! God is the universe. Correct. God is reality itself, god is everything that exists so that means god is you and god is me and thats what we are So our sense of being in individual perspective is something I now fully understand is dependent upon the fact that consciousness is being processed through a physical body so once the physical body has gone that individual sense of perspective

16:47 simply doesn't have anywhere to adhere. It essentially vanishes, but within that... So from your individual perspective paradoxically your life will seem to come to an end at some point however You actually are God you are all of reality so all of reality isn't going to disappear when you die All the rest of us are still gonna be here and that's actually used So just the physical body is gone in the perspective that associated and is generated from the reality That physical body that now dissolves. There's nowhere for that to adhere to anymore, so essentially yes death is the end but our whole experience of time is ultimately just a paradox because I

17:30 Given that there is only one being and that one being is everything, that means we actually are eternal and immortal. But from a unitary perspective, that also is the equivalent to no time at all. Eternity and no time, infinity and nothing those are all the same thing ultimately so from that perspective there's nothing happening It's only within our body perspective that we perceive or experience anything is happening so without the body we don't have a sense of time anymore. So then there's nothing happening but it's happening forever so it's ultimately to paradox in that sense okay so basically I mean would you say,

18:14 What do you think of the out-of-body experience or astral projection? You think those are just illusionary as well. Yes, absolutely Okay When you know in speaking about entheogens what I like to do is kind of correct The language that people don't have out-of-body experiences they have beyond the body experiences But for the most part, those are energetic constructions that they're making within their own consciousness as a projected experience. And in that sense it's very similar to what occurs when we're having a dream. It's like when you're dreaming you perceive yourself generally from the perspective of a body in an environment with other objects and other beings. So your dream ultimately seems very real in the sense that its populated by other

19:01 people of other beings and all kinds of Physical objects, and it also seems to obey the rules of gravity mean most of the time in our dreams We're not flying around sometimes we do but most the time. We're walking around And everything's perfectly normal, and if suddenly we find ourselves breathing underwater were usually pretty surprised like oh crap I can't do that Breathing under water so most of the normal rules of reality tend to hold together within a dream and within the dream we associate as Our own particular character from our perspective within our body within the dream however, the entire dream is a projection of your own private individual mind there's nothing in the dream that isn't you even though you perceive yourself as an individual body and exterior

19:47 Environment that exterior environment is just as much you as the body that you're projecting yourself being in within the dream So for me out-of-body experiences, I've never encountered anyone who's been able to convince me that What it is that they claim that they're experiencing is not just a projection of themselves and usually when you really get down to people specific individual details of what? What it is that the experience? It's fairly easy to analyze how its projection of their egos and sometimes I mean, it's really kind of shockingly easy So yeah. I've never been convinced by anybody's account Because I can always see the ego at work and I would also add that that's my perspective now This has not always been my perspective with this right? I went through a fundamental transformation in started really in

20:37 late 2007 and kind of finished up in spring 2009 and since that time my own perspective has been extraordinary clear on these matters and so for things that for me used to be well i don't know that might be true that's so fascinating it is not the case anymore having found my own clarity It's just very clear to me. It's either ego or it's reality, and for me there really isn't any middle ground so I have very high standards for that and I know that they can be very challenging for people to encounter what I have to say because it seems very authoritative

21:15 very insistent and Sometimes I might appear not to be open to people's ideas, but it's because I've explored in there things Yeah, right Lord all of this myself. And these are the conclusions that I've reached and the only way I could be convinced otherwise is if my Experience somehow shifted where I'd say oh wow look at that But you know I've gone to the end and it's just me It's It's always been me. That's just the conclusion that I've arrived at and so that's what i'm sharing with other people and doing my best to explain how that works, why it works the way that it does and what it means for us as human beings

21:55 Yeah, I mean it makes sense to me. I'm still figuring stuff out like basically...I'm not convinced of anything yet like before i did Salvia uh..i was definitely a pretty hardcore atheist and to me it was like I did not expect salvia to be what it was actually kind of thought it Milder marijuana in some terms because I was a prior yeah, it was legal So I just I had a friend from out of town. It was legal in this state and California And he's like oh let's try it and I'm like all right I've tried before just feels like spinning in an office chair nothing and all the sudden I wasn't not in the room and it was oh man it was fucked and uh that but that was if it was the feeling that my personality and my inner voice was still intact yet I was

22:42 Sensing something else entirely it was that feeling that sort of made me think maybe there's Something else to life. It made me not so much of an atheist, but it's interesting that you have such experience with Psychedelics and you just come to such a different conclusion I mean I when I read your book it makes perfect sense. I mean I do hear When people get deep, deep, deep with DMT a lot of times they talk about the oneness and I mean there's all kinds of coded messages in the Bible about when your two eyes become one blah blah blah body of light and stuff. And it makes sense you'll see those things all throughout different old cultures and old societies

23:26 Yeah, it's definitely something that is out there. Again I really want to emphasize how much my own perspective has really radically shifted on this because thinking back to my own early experiences with entheogens that certainly part of what drew me to the experience was suddenly realizing You know, maybe all this spiritual stuff is really totally real because this is the most bizarre thing. That there do seem to be these alternate realities and all these energies and all of these different dimensions in all of this stuff! And so that's really what drew me into exploring it

24:09 But something that was important, looking back now as I see my own trajectory of how I got to where I am. I can see that my hesitance to commit to any particular view was actually the most important thing that I could do because you know I do see a lot of people who get to working with Entheogens and maybe they train with a shaman and then they're all about spirits, and they're really fundamentally convinced that all this stuff is really really real. But as I was going through my own experiences since it was mostly what i was doing on my own, I didn't have anyone around to tell me what wasn't the case so I didn't develop any solid views but I had a lot of

24:48 Wondering, you know I really wondered about all these questions about afterlife about reincarnation about karma about spirit entities about disincarnate intelligence about astral projection and I had a lot of these experiences and many of them were very convincing to me but also there was underneath it all there is always this nagging sense of You know, this is really just you but I couldn't identify. Well why is that and also honestly a large part of my ego fought against that because it's kept telling me That's so egotistical to think something like that That's yet So arrogant to think that somehow this is all your experience that this is all coming from you that you're not you're just so egotistical that you think that these other realms are you and that these other beings are you

25:37 So I really resisted that for a long time until it came to the point where not admitting that to myself, that it was all me. That I would be lying to myself in the deepest core of my being and I reached a point where I was no longer going to lie about anything either to myself or anyone period. I was done hiding from the truth and so essentially I reached a point where I had to admit as much as my ego wanted to resist it I had to admit that essentially, I was God in human form just as everyone else is and that's reality. And that was shocking! That was absolutely shocking for me because

26:23 For one, I wasn't a theist in any kind of way. I was kind of a shamanic Buddhist is how i would have identified myself and to be overwhelmed with this knowledge that my god there really is only one being and it's a being and it's intelligent and it's alive and it's all of reality and it's me And whatever it was that I thought I was that ego that was having all these experiences That was all just a game It's all just this false construct that was shattering for me. Yeah, really shattered my world and the book being human was the result and ever since then so I wrote that in

27:01 summer fall of 2009 and ever since then I've essentially been writing the same thing over and over again in just different formats and highlighting different ideas And aspects. I actually just released a short ebook today called all is one understanding entheogens and non dualities, and so I'm still writing about the exact same thing that I Some sense I'm kind of a broken record at this point as I wrote in this little e-book it once you figure it out What it is that you have to say? There really isn't anything else to say at that point. So there are I just keep saying it and different formats

27:39 Well, a lot of the new age people they'll also talk about it's all we're all one and it is all us. But they come to a little... They take in a different direction and that they kind of go with this whole now that you know your true nature you can manifest your reality but I haven't heard that from you Yeah, that's a lotta ego crap because the game is much much much much more sophisticated than that and Unless you really know who you are unless you really know yourself You actually don't know what you want because all of reality is actually one massive energetic system that runs on self-love now if you're confused about who you are, and if you're confused about

28:28 What what reality is then you're going to be very very confused about what it is that you actually want So the ego may want one thing the ego says oh, I really really really really really want this but your genuine energy that you are Might have very very different plans for you and it really doesn't matter what your ego thinks or what your ego wants And that is why sometimes reality is absolutely horrific and really horrible nasty things happen That apparently that no one would want to add in their right mind, but you have to understand that for one God doesn't give a shit

29:08 in the sense that God doesn't take anything personally. And we are all just pawns on the chessboard of reality that is this one being, and it's kind of like if you watch a movie and if you see a character really suffering in the movie You can imagine wow i bet that character doesn't want that i mean look you just got a job for something like that yeah from the perspective of the director who's making the movie it doesn't matter whether that character wants better not moving this story forward for whatever reason and that's ultimately all we are were all just little characters in it since. All the characters that are playing on the chessboard since they're all actually the same being it doesn't really matter which one wins or which one loses Or which one eats the other one or kills? The other one or marries the other one or does anything else because it's all the same being so we're all in that sense ultimately disposable but So once, we'd start thinking about well what are my own personal desires and how do I manifest them Well the reality is

30:11 You get clearing yourself and then you work on it. You can't sit around and think about oh, well I really want this or I really want that I mean That's just the ego playing with itself And so you know sometimes it seems to work in any go says Oh wow It really totally worked but most of the time people are just diluting themselves when they're thinking that way It's harsh i know but no it's fair to say cuz i have always wondered things like you know what how do you account for really random car accidents in a who's. Who's manifesting that? Something nobody expected or saw coming. I guess the argument is, oh well maybe deep in the back of their mind they were a pessimist and they were just welcoming negative energy. Or then people will fall back on ideas of karma like, Oh well you know they had it coming from a previous life

31:00 or something and it's just ways that people make excuses for themselves. And it's also a way that people use to get after themselves, oh I should be more positive! I should just change my mind and things will be better. Believe me, I fell into that as well. Prior to kind of this radical break that I made with myself. I was living in a relationship for many many years that I was very unhappy and leading the life that ultimately, I really censored myself and shut myself down and didn't allow myself to be myself And all the way through I kept telling myself. I just need to change my perspective. I need to be more

31:38 Optimistic I'm just focusing on the negative and you know The reality is I needed to change my situation and no amount of thinking was going to do that. It requires action That's what reality is reality requires genuine action there certainly There's a lot that we can do with our own perspective Of how attached we get to certain outcomes that we may want so, I don't want to say that that's completely bogus but when it comes to determining What you are really able to do within reality, you have to do it yourself. You can't expect reality to pander to you in some way if you just think the right thoughts or say the right prayers and do the right rituals or do the right dance or whatever it is that people think that they need to do. Say enough Hail Marys or spin the prayer wheel enough times. It's just the ego playing games and so from my perspective at this point, it's simply a waste of energy

32:30 Well, you'd be much better off focusing on finding clarity within yourself and then choosing clearly which actions are going to bring you the greatest amount of happiness for the limited time that You have and what do you think is the best way to do that? Ah infusions there Definitely infusion. So maybe I'll give a little bit more background on sure What happened in this sense of how I came to be able to write being human so Like I said my really my experience with entheogens was with mushrooms and with salvia divinorum, and then in around 2007 or so It's actually after I published my book mushroom wisdom that I had a guy who wanted a copy of the book But he didn't have any money, but he said hey. I'll trade you some stuff So he sent me some yelp o seeds

33:19 at the time. And yopo seeds are seeds from trees in Central and South America that primarily contain 5-MeO DMT, 5-Methoxydimethyltryptamine So I started kind of working with that a little bit. It's really a pain in the ass, you have these seeds with this little cover on them and you have to roast them so that the cover cracks and then you have to remove this little papery cover and then you have like these roasted nuts and then you have to crush up the roasted nuts and then you can snort them or you can smoke them. And so I found that oh, I prefer smoking but it just tastes really nasty, it's not It's not a pleasant smoking experience by any means. So I had a few experiences with 5-MeO, but nothing that would—that I now understand is the full release dose and actual dose that's effective to bring you into nondual state of awareness that my eye wasn't getting that.

34:12 I'll just skip over all the drama that led me to change my life, but it ended up leaving my wife. I left my job. I left my kids I left California and I ended up moving here to Ashland Oregon And very soon after I moved here, um, I didn't have any work. I was just busy looking for any kind of work. Uh, connected with a guy by applying to a job that he had written the ad for. Um and he checked out my website before contacting me and at the time I had a theme camp at Burning Man called The God Box and kinda been nicknamed for The God Box was the Mystic Toad

34:51 And the Mystic Toad actually was a mailbox that I had created as this toad. We have this whole ritual where you go in to see the Mystic Toad and open the God Box and see what's in there, but it is just mailbox so anyway This guy kind of sees us on my website and he says or what kind of mystic toad do you have? Well, you know, it's a mailbox He said, oh well I have the real thing. And so what he was referring to is the Sonoran Desert Toad or Bufo albarius and this is the only toad in the world that in its poison that it secretes from its glands contains 5-MeO DMT, an extraordinarily powerful entheogenic or psychedelic compound.

35:34 Also, I will say about 5meo DMT for anyone who's not familiar with it that this is actually a molecule That's inside every single human being on the planet and it's inside every mammal And it's in countless species of plants and grasses So it's really really common within nature somewhat similar to DMT in the sense that DMT dimethyltryptamine is also inside all humans and all mammals and in many different plants and various other things. So these are very, very common molecules and kind of just to briefly describe the difference DMT well that's the main

36:13 Active ingredient in ayahuasca for example and when you take that orally with a mono-amino oxidase inhibitor then you experience DMT over the course of Usually a couple hours and sometimes it can be longer depending on the brew the ayahuasca brew and exactly what's in there Sure, if you smoke DMT The experience is actually much stronger. And it's much faster so it comes on at a matter of seconds and DMT then lasts for maybe 5 to 15 minutes, essentially in terms of one experience with DMT. Now 5-MeO DMT, 5 methoxydimethyltryptamine

36:51 You also you can smoke that and it comes on in a matter of seconds And it is much much much stronger than DMT by many orders of magnitude, and it lasts from 20 to 40 minutes to maybe even an hour at times so it's essentially very very strong It's certainly incomparable to anything else. I've ever encountered that Salvia that's strong DMT that strong 5-methoxy dimethyltryptamine is it's off the charts in terms of strength when you get a full release dose So anyway, this fellow invited me over to his house and at the time five MEO DMT was legal It was only recently made illegal. That was like January 19th of 2011 something like that so it's just been over a year or so that it's actually been illegal so at the time it was legal and he invited me over to his place and

37:47 The first time he invited me over, it was kind of a dud. Didn't work the second time he invited me over within a matter of seconds my only reality was God And I had never experienced anything like that before whoever it was. I thought I was Was just completely wiped out the room that I was in was completely gone and everything was pure crystalline fractal rainbow white light that stretched on for infinity and was made of pure pulsing living conscious love Wow, and it completely overwhelmed me so for the first time in my life. The first thing that came out of my mouth Within seconds was just thank you God Thank You God Thank You and I just went on like that for about an hour

38:33 So this was this was this was Shattering because yeah, I don't at that time. I was still kind of kind of Buddhist and Buddha's Buddha doesn't talk about God and you maybe talk about the Buddha mind or the emptiness of consciousness but this was a conscious Being that was made out of love And so for me that was just god and it was it was so overwhelming So then that experience then precipitated a whole chain of events that definitely don't have time to get into now, but it took about 14 months from that very first experience where quote Martin experienced God and then Martin came back and said what the hell was that? To

39:13 After about 14 months of working with 5-MeO DMT and also regularly attending the Santo Daime Church here in Ashland, drinking daime which is a form of ayahuasca and also working with mushrooms and salvia. It was very intense time period. I was also very poor during this time period. There no longer was a distinction between what I thought of as myself and what I experienced as God And so that was kind of the end of the process for me and things have never been the same since then in that Actually when that that occurred it literally was like a switch was flipped. And then for me at that point there is no distinction between

39:51 The five m a o dmg experience and just normal everyday reality. Yes that divide was completely gone so what that essentially means is that i felt like i was tripping mad all the time how do you fit into it how do you get into this society that way i didn't know how that was going to work Because when when I really open up my energy my voice changes, my voice gets very deep. My whole cadence and rhythm the way that I speak changes. I become much more authoritative. I've become very very very insistent in many ways. My whole body language changes. I become very geometric in the way that I move. I'm very symmetrical and so it's very intense.

40:39 Met a lovely woman named Jessalyn here in Ashland and moved in with her and we married each other. And when this occurred from her perspective Martin was simply gone She didn't know who I was she didn't know what had happened but the man that she thought she loved was clearly no longer in the building And it was really startling. For me, this was... I was teaching at the university at the time—this is when I first started teaching at SOU—and this was the week before finals so I had to go in and give my final lectures and review everything for the final exams for my students. And I had no idea what was going to happen!

41:21 So it was on a Friday night that my switch got flipped and I had to go in on Monday and give a lecture And all weekend long. I had just been tripping mad mad mad at home, and I was I was ecstatic It was like yes, I've been let out of prison it is it was glorious but anyway, I went to school and I hadn't said anything to anybody and I walked into the room and one of my students said oh hi professor and then I said Oh hello Suddenly my voice had gone back to the kind of the old Martin voice even though it's a little bit different now than I used to sound Back and yeah, it kind of snapped back in and my energy shifted And I learned at that moment that as long as I completely trust that. I can always be myself then I

42:03 I'll be able to fit into any social situation. It's not an issue." A metaphor that I use at this point is that, I've learned where the structure of my ego is a social navigation tool so when I'm interacting with other people, I usually sound and act like Martin unless they really start asking me questions and then my energy will shift fairly dramatically. But other than that I go out and you know, I play the Martin character And I'm very comfortable with it and I enjoy it because I enjoy interacting with other people. I mean that's kind of the point but I Had no idea how I was supposed to navigate That and he was ultimately just learning to trust That as long as I was true to what I felt in my energy everything would be fine So I just I trust everything all the time Just the way it goes

42:53 Yeah, I mean that was going to be my next question is if you thought that You know if you still battled with your ego or it was pretty much beaten into submission by this point It seems like you kind of you've turned it and use it as a positive. Yeah one thing that I always like to stress with people is that A lot of people get the wrong idea about this. They talk about ego death and they say oh I want to kill my ego, I want to get rid of my ego, I want to become this no self and that's fundamentally an ego delusion because your ego doesn't actually ever go away permanently now we can transcend it for certain time periods especially when we're working with entheogens And actually that reminds me I want to come back to that issue so I'll spin back to that in a second but

43:35 We can transcend it for certain periods of time and that's when we enter into the non-dual state of awareness But then the ego reasserts itself And so I went through this just kind of this opening closing opening closing every time. I would take medicine I would open and then it would wear off, and I would close and then I'd take more and it opened in there Close open closed but what eventually happened is that? I reached the point where kind of my ego opened Now rather than it automatically clamping back on and saying oh, that's me now I just kind of use it the same way that I might use my hand if I want to drink water. I need to use my hand to reach over and get the glass because I need to Use my hand to do that And there are some things you kind of need to use your ego To do in a sense of interacting with other people so I use it now It is part of me but not the prison that used to be That is really really radical difference

44:28 And it's not about killing the ego. It's about freeing yourself from it and that means you have to learn that it's not actually you Your ego does everything that it can to convince you in every moment of the day that it is you and It's very believable, but it's also an excellent liar So it's constantly making up this false sense of self and finding ways to reinforce that so it takes a lot of work To get out of that prison and get out of that trap And it's ultimately only something that you can do for yourself. So spinning back around now This is what I started saying all this was that

45:07 Infusions are the best tool for this process because the ego itself is construction of limited energetic patterns and these are patterns of ways that we think Ways that we act ways that we choose to believe and it even involves things like our body gestures our tone Of voice the pitch of our voice or accent if we have one all of these things are ways that our ego is trying to shape our sense of self by using these patterns of energy. But they're ultimately limited patterns of energy because in shaping a sense of self, we always have to distinguish between what we say is me versus not-me so these patterns create the limits and barriers now when you work with a really strong entheogen like 5-MeO DMT

45:57 Or salvia or DMT, I mean these can all be very strong in theogens. But it's especially the ones that have these very fast expansion this very fast come on rate that are the most effective because experientially what's happening is our energy is expanding into this beyond-the-body sense of being And so it's expanding out very rapidly and it's very hard for the ego to effectively hold on and maintain its energetic structures when that is occurring. So, it's kind of like we're pushing on all of these structures. It's kinda like the ego as a dam. It's trying to hold back all this energy

46:36 If the individual chooses to let go of all sense of self-identity, then their energy can expand out and their sense of identification can then encompass everything. And that becomes the unitary or non dual or mystical experience where you realize my god it really is all one and its me its one its everything its nature of being But that only lasts as long as that energetic expansion that the medicines make possible within your body It it only lasts for that time period and then that energy starts to collapse back in on itself after the peak And then the ego starts to reintegrate because it's very it's very persistent. The ego always wants to be in charge I've got something to do. I'm gonna create my sense of self-identity again, I'm going to reestablish dualistic perception and experience

47:26 And so it jumps right in there and does that but the way that I like to describe It is that ultimately the ego is an energetic problem because it's an energetic process That goes on within our being and it affects our whole sense of thought process our emotions Our body, it affects everything that we are and because it's this energetic issue the solution to the problem of the ego is also an energetic solution. And, the most effective energetic tool are entheogens because they're essentially these little crystalline neurotransmitters that attach to various places within our body and it amplifies our sense of energy so it's a very

48:05 I like to kind of stress this naturalistic explanation for what's going on because i don't feel that there is any need to resort to spiritual terminology or you're opening your third eye, or activating your chakras, or elevating your vibration. That all just the way egos want to talk about and identify and create objects that they then reify within their experience but it's just an energetic issue So the entheogens are just from a practical standpoint. They're just the best tool for accomplishing these states of awareness and once people have non-dual experiences if they really learn to work with that and be clear in present within that they really can come to deep understanding of who and what they are

48:47 then they can start to take responsibility for themselves so that their ego isn't projecting out everywhere and displacing energy and Casting judgment and blame and being a victim and doing all these things that egos do But it you have to learn who you are in order to be able to learn how to not engage your ego Your ego because it's always going to convince you that it's you and so you have to have this understanding that It's not you and it's not just an intellectual proposition You have to experience it in order to really be able to learn to work with that right on. Yes I've kind of gone down the thread of The whole idea of kind of reincarnation like I've kind of gotten just now started to explore those ideas and

49:31 I guess it kind of fits conveniently with psychedelics in the terms of when people say, oh go in with an intent and you're going to learn something. And there's a big new age push in that direction but I guess my question is if our individual perspective does not continue and its just absorbed into the great beyond what is really the point of even going through that transition in a lifetime or the point You know this experience itself well the ultimate value is that it frees you to live your life in a way that is truly joyous and Truly truly free, and that's something that you can't put a price on I mean we have to keep in mind that the ego is

50:20 Again, it's essentially a liar and it's lying to you all the time. Because it is so good at it we believe the lies that the ego is telling but its constructions of the ego that lead things like racism war violence crime abuse all these things are actually products of the ego Agree, so these are even if it's not as dramatic as that the ego creates these problems in people's lives So that they suffer in a way. That's unnecessary and that's really the main point It's not about achieving some great spiritual state or something like that It's just about recognizing that look there's a whole lot of unnecessary suffering that's going on here And if you just got clear on yourself that suffering would actually disappear

51:10 And then it's no longer something that you need to worry about. Coming to a deep understanding of the nature of the self, Really what I found is all my existential worries just vanished, literally vanished overnight. I have zero fear of death. I have zero fear of doing the wrong thing spiritually. You know? I'm no longer concerned with ideas of right and wrong. I am only concerned about authenticity. I've only been concerned about being myself and that is such a great liberating relief One way that I like to demonstrate this with people is you know, I talk about the energy in their body and how the ego creates these blocks within the natural flow of energy within your being and one of the ways that I do this is I'll take like a towel and I'll twist that towel all up and You know pull it into knots And now we'll show that two people and say this is what your ego is doing to you inside. So

52:07 It's creating an energetic structure that similar to this knot that I've just created now you can walk around with this not inside of you and all the problems if that creates or You can learn how to smooth this out And then I will smooth out the towel and open it up and make it nice and flat is it where your energy? Can be like this now, which do you think is going to be more pleasant for you? And that's all that it boils down to ultimately. And if if more people were like that This world would be so different. We wouldn't have absurd political races going on, we wouldn't have these financial crises, we wouldn't have so much of what happens within human cultures in society it would just be gone. See that's what frustrates me the most is when I do psychedelics the more i do them uh...the more frustrated i get dealing with

52:59 the society that we've built. Dealing with cops or getting my car registered, I'm like why the fuck do i have to do this? We should be just free and this is bullshit and it's costing me money and it's hard for me to go to work at my nine-to-five job increasingly every day when I'm dealing with this and I'm like this is not the point of this experience and you know it's really frustrating because Society's been around for a long time and somebody somewhere should have been able to prepare better prepare this from my experience Yeah, look be less frustrating Kind of the way that I look at that now is for one. I've developed within myself this unconditional sense of love so

53:41 Even as frustrating and as terrible things may be and is as awful people choices Maybe I still have this overriding sense of love for all beings in all things so for me that really takes precedent is that So there's kind of a sense of sympathy there because really I just see myself In a confused form when I see people making bad decisions, so I really just see myself And what I want is for myself to be clear. And I seen that in the other person so I'm able to let go of judgment in that sense now So one thing that I like to say is like look, I love everyone. It doesn't mean I like everyone personally Doesn't mean I want it personally interact with people who are terribly confused and just spewing out all kinds Of garbage but I still loved them at the most fundamental level. I still love them and Also what's important? Is that

54:33 We have to recognize that we actually can't change the world and we do live within a society that has all these false structures. Culture that revolves around money, which ultimately is a non real thing money right only exists because we agree that it has Value but it doesn't have any inherent value So actually money is very very similar to the ego because the ego doesn't really exist It's just an imaginary agreement That we make with ourselves that I am this person and I'm gonna put value on these thoughts beliefs and ideas And so money is the same way

55:12 and that's what our society is built on. And kind of in the sense that, look I still need to use my ego when I'm out interacting with other people or else I will tend to freak them out. Or who knows what else might happen? We still need to work, you know that's still a reality of mine. I need to work. I just got downsized at the university where I work so adjunct professors they're taking classes away from us so that they don't have to pay us health insurance and now instead of teaching three classes a term i'm only teaching one. This is just the reality but within You can still be yourself. This is the lesson that I've learned, you can always be yourself. You can always choose to be authentic to yourself and sometimes that means there might be consequences for that

55:59 But as long as you're being yourself, you will still feel good about yourself and about your reality because you will know that even though other people are confused and so they're bringing all kinds of harshness into your reality. At least you've done what you can to be yourself. And so it's always about trusting that you can express yourself and you can be yourself and not live in fear of well what would happen if I did something different? but also recognizing that you know to some extent we have to play the game because We society isn't enlightened yet. It hasn't happened it's it's not there so we have to live within that reality, it's about respecting What is actual than reality and then choosing? To always be ourselves Within that and in one last little bit I would give here Is that also when looking at just the

56:54 The difficult trajectory of human history is from this point, I really look at it as well. Human beings have we've actually been in an evolutionarily speaking kind of a childhood stage and we've really been able to use the planet as our playground and we've been able to form different teams and were out there playing on the playground and some of us are bullies and some of us get bullied but essentially we've been little kids Because we haven't understood who we are We're out. We're all out there playing and pretending to be something that were not when the reality is each and every one of us is God And it's actually about time that we started living up to that It's time for human beings to grow up and stop playing the bullshit make-believe games because it's getting kind of nasty here on the playground and We're a bit more mature than that now, so it's just time but that maturing takes Time it takes people

57:51 Being willing to commit themselves To learning who they truly are and then living in that reality rather than within the illusions It's not easy growing up. So I have a lot of sympathy in that respect but at the same time, I also recognize that I personally have a limited amount of patience because I also recognize that only have a limit amount of time in this body and from this experience and my I really would like the planet to get as best as it can be in the time period that I have. So, that's why I invest my energy in writing books and speaking on podcasts about how people can find clarity because I want to share that because these are all just other versions of me and I know that I appreciate the clarity and if I had appreciated here from this body from this perspective, I could appreciate it from those other ones as well so I do what I can to spread clarity

58:41 But ultimately, it's up to individuals. Everyone has got to do it for themselves because there is no savior out there to take care of everyone and hold our hands and wipe our asses and blow our nose for us. We've gotta do it. Amen sir! Well hey before we go I want to get through a couple questions that were submitted by readers on the Hireside Chats forum and on Reddit if thats cool with you? Well, from the forum Kyle says he loves being human number one and he has two questions. How do we transform society to use psychedelics as a coming of age experience rather than a criminal offense?

59:19 I'll let you answer that because the other one's not really related. Okay? Well, I actually put out a podcast just last month where For the first time on my podcast I spoke about marijuana and I did it because a lot of people have asked me well What do you think about marijuana and I realized I'd never talked about it on the podcast And I always kind of felt that it was sort of an obvious issue but something that came to mind in really thinking about it was look if If there's one issue, if there is one linchpin issue that actually could turn the tide of virtually everything within society from politics to police to incarceration to laws to way we deal with youth and education and healthcare and economics and fuel and building materials and virtually everything else

1:00:03 That one issue would be pot, would be marijuana. And I think that this is what now we're seeing in the United States that we're really reaching a tipping point where more and more people are accepting of marijuana and I would classify marijuana as kind of mild entheogen so i think that in turning the tide helping to end prohibition on marijuana that actually could be the watershed moment that allows the re-entry, the legitimacy above... The gateway if you will. Yeah, re-entry of these kinds of medicines back into our society and I think that people have been chipping away at this for a long time with medical marijuana and local votes and things like that but I think once that floodgate opens up, I think that's really where things are going to change

1:00:58 At that point then we really might be able to talk about well, how do we introduce these things to our youth? I mean it's still such I mean It's an issue when you raise the issue of pot You know the politicians who are against it always say oh their children their children and that's the only thing they really have to say anymore because all but all the propaganda has been disproven and So I think that would then allow us to start having this discussion at a more culture-wide level. And, I think people are getting ready for it but if we could break that issue with marijuana then that's the one to focus on so that is my brief answer to that question.

1:01:38 His other question, I think I kind of know what you're going to say but do you think there are other types of life or beings that are connected to us beyond the five senses? No. It would be great if there were. I really think it would be great and it could No, no. It's essentially and I guess also when I would say beyond the five senses you know what? I would want to mention that physiologically your heart generates a very large electromagnetic field and That it's important for people to actually understand that their heart is in many respects in extremely sophisticated sense organ

1:02:16 Okay, so we talked about we have a touch and you have smell and sight and hearing and taste and all these things when We talk about the five senses And then sometimes people want to talk about the third eye or something like that I just like to call that be a divine imagination as they write about in being human but the heart actually is a sense organ and Look actually since were all one being When the energy of the ego drops, the heart energy between two different physical beings can completely coincide with each other and they experience themselves as looking at each other in a mirror. And it's really quite beautiful and quite profound so in that sense we certainly can connect

1:02:56 through ways that aren't just our visual senses, our physical senses. That we have this energetic field of the heart which is very very powerful and influences every aspect of our experience but in terms of inner psychic space and things like that no it's all you and it can be so convincingly other I mean that's the really fun part about it um...that it can seem like wow there There's some insect alien here looking at me and what the hell. Machine elves and whatnot? I mean, i've seen this stuff! I know it's there but... It's almost like this joke where suddenly you realize, oh my god that me I'm just looking in a mirror. I've created this image in the mirror and it's me! One way I describe is like imagine your at a puppet show and your watching this puppet show And your having a great time, your just engrossed in the puppet show but suddenly you realize That the puppets are actually sitting on your own hands And your the one acting out the show But you thought you were just a member of the audience And thats essentially what going on there

1:04:00 Right on. Okay, Carrie from the THC forums as well she asks regarding the Occupy Movement and other uprisings around the world what's your advice to people who dissent against oppressive governments and do you think this awakening in rebellion are in any shape or form related to the idea of 2012 at a new age of evolution? No, I do. I think the whole 2012 thing is a lot of smoke and mirrors so first of all I would just Radically dismiss that I think the Occupy movement. I think it's really important. I think it's really powerful because essentially what's happening there is

1:04:41 Unfortunately, it kind of takes this that we need to reach the breaking point where things get bad enough that people actually decide Fuck it. I'm not gonna take any more. I'm gonna do something about and so that's kind of the point that we're reaching And so in that sense, I'm very excited about it and I think that it's an incredibly important thing that People take action. I mean That's all about being true to your energy if you see something if you feel something act on it, don't just sit around and when somebody else is going to do it or why won't things just get better. It doesn't work that way but within that I would also urge people to as Deep as the frustration may become and especially when we see the haves versus the have-nots And you know We see their fat cats up there in their balcony ship sipping champagne and smoking cigars and laughing at the protesters that it's it's hot It's really easy to get into dualistic Oppositions of its us versus them, and it's just important to always remember. Hey, we're all one and

1:05:41 Literally, we're all one being and that person sitting up there drinking the champagne and laughing at the protesters. That's you too That's actually you. So just keep that in mind in terms of how you direct your passions and how you let your thoughts shape around the issues because dividing is never going to do anything It needs to be the recognition it look what we really want to share with the 1% is hey, you know We're we really are all one so Do we really need to have this radical social stratification? Do we need to have the dominators and the dominated do we need to have The manipulators and the manipulated, you know Why are we creating these relationships because You know it affects them too. That's the thing is there's no such thing as a one-way street that Given the disparities within society and the suffering that it causes at the lower financial end of the spectrum well those people on the top end of the spectrum

1:06:44 They're afraid they've got all kinds of fear and all kinds of unhappiness and all kinds of their own ego confusion so actually we can be compassionate for them, and So I would just always urge you know I used to be so passionate about so many social issues. I used to go door-to-door and raising money, signing petitions and writing letters and making phone calls. Now i've really focused on how do I help individual people because that's where I see the most effective means of making real change cause the danger of engaging in society and trying to affect change that way

1:07:20 Is that just new ego patterns take over and they might be better for a while But ultimately as long as we're dealing with the ego, we're dealing with illusions And so there's always going to be a sense of dissatisfaction and a less than optimal result from that. So That's again why the clarity the personal individual clarity becomes so important so that we don't keep making the same kinds of mistakes and putting out the same kinds of projections but Overall, I would just say good luck to all the protesters always keep it real and Yes act on what you feel and especially Especially when it's so tempting to get mad and angry get in touch with your heart. Don't it's not about what you think It's about what you feel So get in touch with what you feel And then act from that place as long as you're doing that You're doing the right thing

1:08:13 Nice you got time for two more sure all right from reddit User Frank seven six nine asks what contributes to the social stigma against psychedelics in society and in what way does said stigma Benefit corporations government and established religions. Okay, that's a kind of a big question but for one overall Larger Society does not understand psychedelics okay most cultures around the world historically don't understand psychedelic and even in cultures where psychedelics have been used as Many times if they've only been used by an elite group within that society So maybe the Society at large doesn't even really know about that now there of course There are many exceptions to that especially in Central and South America, but like look for example in Hinduism most Hindus Would say that psychedelics have nothing whatsoever to do with their religion And they would look at that as something strange and as something unacceptable so

1:09:14 But there are members in the Hindu tradition, particularly Shaivites who spend a great deal of time smoking pot and eating mushrooms and doing things like that. But even within their own culture in society they're not well understood so Historically just there hasn't been widespread knowledge of what these things really are and what they really do so there's a lot of Fear because it's very clear to everyone that they have very very powerful effects But since it's not understood that there is a lot of fear and there is a lot of misunderstanding there. Also, you know just in terms of our own contemporary modern society, our modern society would much prefer people to drink alcohol and become numb egos than it would prefer people to become truly awake

1:10:09 Where because that serves the power structures within our society better and it's not necessarily even a conscious choice but people are making its. It's just the way that it is that are the current structures of our society Are not served by people working with psychedelics and in theogens And of course for those of us who do we say well, yeah That's because we actually can see how life can be a lot better than we can change A lot of the ways that we do things but there's the ego is Always resistant to change. The ego is always more comfortable with things that it thinks it knows versus things that think it doesn't

1:10:47 It doesn't know. So psychedelics and theogens, they're just a great big fear out there and of course the way that the ego works is that it projects everything onto what it fears And so there's a great deal of illusion between Reality and the way that mainstream society really looks at psychedelics I think that the fact now there's a resurgent in psychedelic research. I think that is really going to help change a lot of attitudes You know things like doing this podcast because the more that people hear about these things and realize That maybe it's not all the frou-frou stuff. They thought it was and maybe it's not all the crazy stuff They thought I was too, maybe there's some really really profound and powerful things here We can see that It helps people with all kinds of mental issues and emotional issues and psychological issues There again. I do think that the tide is turning

1:11:45 But it takes people being willing to talk about it openly and discuss it. Because as long as its just underground, then its more secret society countercultural stuff and you know can kind of burn out or whatever. It's time to bring it out into the open! Let's talk about it! I hear ya... Alright lastly This reddit pimp dolderer, he wants to know if you're familiar with Rick Strassman's hypothesis on DMT which of course I know you are. That said what is your take on the pineal gland and its usefulness considering your philosophy? Ah yeah this is an important one. Rick Strassman clearly stated in his research in no uncertain terms that he hypothesized that

1:12:31 the pineal gland is related to the production of endogenous DMT in the body. And he's also very clear in stating that, to his knowledge there is no such evidence yet available so that is pure speculation it Might be true, but the just the only thing that we need to recognize at this point is that no one has shown a connection between the pineal gland and DMT so anything that anyone ever says about that is pure speculation and From any kind of scientific standpoint. We don't have any idea So that's my quick answer to that one Yeah, and that's fair. Have you ever looked into the symbolism of the pine cone in the Catholic Church and various secret societies relating that to the pineal? No I've...I'm a little bit familiar with that. Honestly at this point so this is the kind of thing that i used to spend a lot of time really digging into yeah um And I simply don't anymore You know people ask me like oh what are you reading these days well I'm reading Stephen King

1:13:32 You know I've actually reached the point where all i really am interested in is you know, I do research for the classes that I teach? You know like a teaching class on Tibetan buddhism right now so I got it you know brush up on my tibetan buddhism and look at all that stuff but In terms of looking at ancient societies and cultures And mystical systems. I mean I did all that as a graduate student for many years I read hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pages and books and books and books and all kinds of stuff and now I just want to read a good story. That's really all i'm interested in right on Walmart my man, uh This has been pretty much the highlight of my goddamn week and I feel way better about going deep with dmt trying To overcome my ego to truly experience reality beyond the illusion of duality and separateness So thanks well there you go rock on

1:14:21 Where can people get your books and keep up with your work and what you're up to? Well, the most central location in cyberspace would be just martinball.net And that's where I have... You know, I'm also a musician so I've got all my music there. I have fiction books I have nonfiction books and books about entheogens, and I got all that there and beyond that my music is available on iTunes My books are available on Amazon at the iBook store So they're fairly easy to find the only caution that I put out There is if there's a guy on Amazon also called Martin no not on Amazon iTunes called Martin ball Oh sure who's got some music out. There? That's all like Christian worship praise stuff And that's not me

1:15:02 Do not get confused. Yeah And there's also a Martin Ball who like does Welsh phonetics or something like that as an author and well, that's not me So I just look for the books on entheogens and well that that's me Right on. Well, thanks again man. This has been awesome. I really appreciate it Well, I really enjoyed speaking with you in great questions. I appreciate it. All right, man Enjoy your night. Alright cheerio