THC 121: Adam Gorightly | Discordianism, Operation Mindfuck, & Famous Tricksters

00:04 In the 1930s, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed a nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the Fireside Chats. His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times but we're far from 1930 and I deal with a different kind of fire For a new era of worldly frustration We offer a fresh conversation! I'm Greg Carlwood These are The Hireside Chats How's it going Irish Sideshatters? Drinking a little drink, smoking a little smoke. I'm Greg Carlwood just trying to enjoy the goddamn day here in San Diego! It's just craziness out there this Comic-Con madness...I do love it but it is a little embarrassing that we'll flood the streets for Batman vs Superman but not the hundreds of issues that are causing death and destruction all over the planet But whoa..that's a bit heavy to start for what will be the final THC that does not have a plus extension and honestly I was gonna take

01:01 the time off to fix the issues that I'm having, run the website and have some fun at the Comic Con and not have a show this week. But I got Adam Gowrightley's new book in the mail Historia Discordia which talks about the origins of the discordian society back in the day and he is an awesome guy I've been really interested in Robert Anton Wilson lately, who's a big part of the Discordianism saga. So we put a show together and I ended up really loving it because we talk about so many great illuminated tricksters of the 60s on up. Wilson of course, Timothy Leary, Terrence McKenna, George Carlin, Alan Watts, Hunter S Thompson... Just a bunch of my favorite people and they way they affected society often in the same types of ways And its' a good one!

01:44 And then next week we're launching Plus, which is where every episode will have an extra hour with the guest. That is for people willing to subscribe for the low low price of $5 a month Sign ups are a little better but not good enough that I'm not concerned about September's rent Some of you have voiced concerns that you don't like PayPal or Bitcoin...I get that I am working on a solution for you guys. Others are upset that they can't get it off iTunes and I think those people haven't been to the new site yet, remember it's the highersidechatsplus.com It's real easy to type that in to a browser and stream there. It's going to be super convenient to listen from a computer or smartphone.

02:24 or downloaded and even still I am working on an RSS feed solution but for a secure feed it's a little tougher. And i'm getting closer every day, I really just have one last technical glitch to solve and then it should be available Also, when you become a subscriber to Plus there's a place to suggest guests and topics. Honestly I get A LOT of suggestions from Reddit, Twitter, Facebook, email... everything! And it's hard to manage them and there is no way that I can get all of them but thats gotta be the list i look at first so make sure you put something down when you sign up I also had some difficulty playing phone tag with the other money bomb winner. It's actually a couple, I think i said Julie on the last show and her name was on the PayPal account but her husband called and left a message on the voicemail app on the site so I think im gonna play that and then Im going to play

03:14 little one and a half minute clip from Robert Anton Wilson about language and how it affects the mind. An unusual thing for me to do, but I think it's important because if everyone has a small sense of at least one of these main guys we're talking about today, It'll make the whole show better And then we're gonna get serious about The Great Spoof Religion Of Discordianism on The Other Side Hail Aris! Hey Greg, it's Brandon the grateful recipient of the recent Money Bomb. Just calling to let you know I live and work on the east side of Cleveland. I'm a professional loafer at Amy Joy Donuts My favorite topics for this show...and by the way this show is phenomenal man don't change a thing! I love the plus idea we already signed up that was thanks to the money bomb

04:09 But my favorite topics, you know by far is Hollow Earth. I'm a big fan always been a big proponent of that but and i have not run across the show i haven't loved um maybe future shows the Rh negative blood mystery it's just uh something i've just scratched the surface of and it's really hard to find anything that's really You know really goes all the way into depth and explains why that is? Are they predecessors to the positive blood type or are they the other way around Just so the people know also, the money will be used to ensure that there is a little drink and a little smoke to enjoy in future episodes. Obviously we've signed up for Plus already and I'll be buying a Tarot deck and some new tires for my bike My wife's gonna get some much needed art supplies Keep hope alive and keep up the great work man! Thanks again!

05:15 I've decided we can't get beyond words, what we gotta do is get more cynical about our words. You'll find that by dispensing with IS and trying to reformulate without IS you just naturally fall into the kind of expression which is considered acceptable in modern science Also, it's the type of consciousness that Zen Buddhism tries to induce. Using E-Prime you will understand modern science and Zen Buddhism both a lot better than if you ever understood them before Martin Gardner has written a long essay proving that to think like this will destroy your mind. I think it adds tremendously to clarity. I am removing the is from my writing more and more, removing it from your speech is even harder. Instead of thinking the grass is green, you'll think the grass appears green to me

06:11 And this saves me a lot of time, by the way. I don't get embroiled in arguments like Beethoven is better than Mozart or rock is better than soul. I define such things as meaningless and so people get into arguments like that Beethoven seems better to me than Mozart most of the time. I don't say Beethoven is better than Mozart." People would by and large act the hell out more sanely, especially if they you know when they got rid of is they dropped...they put maybe in more sentences. I think everybody used maybe more often. The increase in general sanity would be absolutely it would seem absolutely astonishing

06:50 Completely flabbergast everybody what the hell is we suddenly got a planet full of sane people when did that start to happen? I didn't even notice it He just doesn't to the craziest people on the news and on television or the craziest Columnists in the newspapers, you know They never say maybe they're always quite sure and there's no isn't they ever say seems they always say yes People start arguing about worries. They're mostly arguing about whether the words that they apply to the objects, they are created out of the infinity or possible objects that could be put together. They've picked up a few of them and then they put words on it and then they quarrel about the words

07:27 And if these people get to the stage where they're willing to kill one another over the words, they should be put in a nice quiet home in their country with kindly doctors and beautiful nurses and good senators. But generally they end up in government mansions and start bombing one another or they lead religious crusades for true faith and kill one another with swords... some such thing Folks, as we meander through this life without a proper set of instructions those who feel compelled to seek enlightenment will often try on many different hats and entertain many methodologies for years before finding one that best speaks to them and finally makes those universal truths click.

08:14 Whether it be modern incarnations of secret societies and initiatory orders, the study of the Kabbalah, meditation, occult magic or Zen Buddhism. The goal is generally the same discovering the underlying truths to the universe in reality, the betterment of oneself and a clear understanding of life Well today we're going to dive into one of these lesser known schools of thought, or lack thereof called the Discordian Society with Adam Gowrightly a man who most of you will be pretty familiar with by now and is one of discordiansm's biggest proponents in modern times although they probably know him better by his pope name The wrong Reverend Houdini Kundalini of the Church Of Unwavering Indifference

08:52 But Adam has not only written about the major players in its early days, he's also been busy archiving many Discordian writings notes and artifacts in true Crackpot Historian fashion. For his new book Historia Discordia The Origins of the Discordian Society and the vast online archives that can be found at historiadiscordia.com You know him you love him you can't live without them Adam go rightly my man how the hell are ya? Great Greg! How is it going yeah? It just keeps getting better every day Well this is something special man, you've co-hosted a lot of shows with me over the last however long. Written some blogs too which has been awesome thank you for that and we've definitely name dropped Discordianism along the way and your book comes right at a perfect time for me man because I'm just getting

09:38 Because just in the past three or four months I've been listening to a ton of Robert Anton Wilson lectures and knowing that he was involved in discordanism and seeing so many of his personal writings and letters scanned into this new book of yours. It's been a real treat man, and a bit of a synchronicity Yeah indeed indeed The interview comes at a good time. So to get the ball rolling here, man tell the people about the Discordianism origin story how did this all unfold? Is it all just blood sacrifices and ritual invocations as we'd expect? Not exactly started in a southern California bowling alley in 1958 I believe there's some disagreement about the exact date but think 58 is pretty solid date when

10:26 Kerry Thornley and Greg Hill, a couple of teenagers that live there in the Orange County town of Whittier California. A couple odd kids... Free-thinking nerds one of the guys I interviewed described them as and they were into having long winded discussions about politics and philosophy religion all this so they spent a lot of time doing this bowling alleys they were able to buy beer as the reason they go to bowling alleys and stay there for long hours discussing all this stuff. And one of the times, one of the discussions got into order and chaos in the universe you know? Where this came from where all the chaos came from and they threw around different ideas basically that really was their thinking was there really wasn't no order in the universe

11:23 that's human perception laid over what is truly, what was in their mind as a chaotic universe. And so you know they were kicking around these ideas and they go well we need is a religion dedicated to chaos you have all these religions with all these deities that are here to bring order to the earth We need one represents chaos Greg Hill said, well there already is one in Greek mythology and that's a Dysportia or Iris the Greek goddess of chaos and confusion. And so that's when it basically started. That little seed of an idea as a quote-unquote spoof religion back there in the late 50s, they also claimed that they had a vision at that time where Eris appeared to them in the bowling alley. Appropriate! Yeah and so... That started The Discordian Society and was just kind of an in joke between

12:26 Kerry Thornley, Greg Hill and a few other of their friends back then. And they didn't really do much with it in 59 which was like a year later Thornley enlisted in the Marines where he met Lee Harvey Oswald we've kind of been through this story before but so next two or three years he was in the Marines then when he got out ended up back in Southern California met up again with Greg Hill And they were looking for some excitement in their life. Thornley was a budding writer, so they decided to move to the French Quarter in New Orleans and that's when the Discordian activities ramped up. That was like in the early 60s

13:17 within the next few years they came up with the first edition of the Principia Discordia or Principia Discordia, however you want to pronounce it. And that was in 1965 and the book Bible itself continued to evolve over the years as did Greg Hillen and Kerry Thornley so that's kind of the origin how the whole thing started right on man yeah it's an interesting story It's funny because I just have always kind of with the with only knowing vaguely about discordant ism. I just thought it was a big joke And I think that they're happy to let people think that it's a joke, which is totally fine But also I just think there really is some insight to the underlying philosophy hidden beneath all those layers of humor and jokes and pranks I Think that there is some insight there That's valuable would you say that?

14:11 Well yeah, and part of the... I think a lot of the motivation inspired discordianism as a quote-unquote spoof religion was able you know basically is a vehicle way to alter consciousness is a way to put it or break those molds. Yeah! And try something new and different kind of maybe enlighten other people along organized religion and everything else that we consider consensus reality. We got going during the heyday of counterculture, so it was a type of religion people who were into psychedelics and trying new things something interesting to play with once again use as a vehicle perhaps to poke fun at not only organized religions but also

15:08 you know, a lot of the hypocrisy and paganism and the counterculture. So yeah in a way it was much like comedians use their craft to poke holes in whatever is in popular culture at any given time that's kind of where discordianism was coming from in a sense. Yeah, and I totally agree with you and it's funny because Robert Anton Wilson I found out actually did put out a comedy album and one of the lines from it is used in one of Carlin specials and Carlin actually has been quoted as saying that he's never learned more from any one source

15:50 in his life than Robert Anton Wilson, which I think is a reason to pay attention if you find any value in the insights of Carlin. That's that's a huge endorsement from someone that I've always had high regard for. Yeah well they knew each other and uh... they both came from the same time and place like we both grew up in the Bronx New York during the same period whenever that was 1930s or 40s. Yeah, and so yeah they can and they grew up in Catholicism and all the basic

16:33 Confines that that put on a youth trying to grow up so they rebelled against that, you know and their own ways Yeah I mean they're both now two of my biggest idols in terms of insight and articulating higher perspectives But I did want to read this little piece from Robert Antonin Wilson that you have in the introduction where he kind of describes the aspect of discordant ism that we're talking about He says, it'll be understood by the Kabbalistic reader that discordianism is a system of transcendental atheism agnostic Gnosticism skeptical monotheism and unified dualism. In short the Orissan revelation is not a complicated put on disguised as a new religion but a new religion disguised as a complicated put-on which is a pretty great way to describe it wouldn't you say man? Yeah Wilson was a big fan of trying on different hats

17:25 you know, as far as looking into alternative religions. But basically what came out of that was that he shouldn't just confine yourself to one hat but continue to question and grow and look at different things not get stuck in one reality tunnel is the phrase that he liked to use so much Yeah, man. I mean the more perspectives you can have the better obviously but It's just funny that people think of it as such a joke and I ironically lately have been thinking about it more seriously because if you're familiar with like Alan Watts who talks a lot about the methodology of Zen Buddhism in the way that these spiritual gurus use elaborate techniques to exhaust their subjects and run them around in circles until it finally hits them, but they had enlightenment the whole time. And they realize it's not some gift you can just get from a wise man! Do see similarities in the way Discordianism kind of approaches initiates?

18:25 It's interesting you should bring up Alan Watts because I'd never really, I knew that Greg Hill and Cary Thornley were influenced by a lot of counterculture figures but i never equated Alan Watts with the sportianism. But I was interviewed by a guy Nick O'Colt, The Colt Of Nick podcast he does that out of Britain He brought up...he was talking about the Holy Trinity of Discordianism. Of course, he mentioned Cary Thornley and Robert Anton Wilson and he brought up Alan Watts and I go hmmm! Alan Watts wasn't really involved in Discordianism but he picked up on a lot of that mindset or philosophy with Alan Watts too that related to Discordianism And that's the whole thing about Discordianism you know there is

19:25 no rules, you don't need to jump through any particular hoops to define yourself as a Pope. And when Thornley and Hill first started working with these ideas way back when, the first flush of things came out in first edition of the Principia Discordia, and basically they set it up like an organized religion with their tongues firmly planted in their cheeks. The first editions printed in this facsimiles in this latest book Historia Discordia

20:06 But that evolved over time and around 1969 or so, with the aid I'm sure of opening his mind through hallucinogens and what all else. Greg Hill came to the realization that everybody should be able to declare themselves popes. Previous to that they had it set up so only Hill and Thornley could actually initiate folks into the Dysportian society. Greg Hill saw the folly in that and so opened up to anybody, that anybody anytime anywhere could declare themselves a Pope and if you've ever seen the Pope card, that's exactly what it says So the philosophy of it kind of changed back then, so did the direction of the Principia Dysportia And that's when he started... Greg Hill was kind of his spearhead obviously Thornley was deeply involved

21:02 during that period is when they start getting a lot of other people involved with the Discordian Society, with Robert Anton Wilson and Camden Maneris and Robert Shea and Louise Lacy and a bunch of these people. And through kind-of like collaboration sorts they came up with subsequent editions of the Principia Discordii In a way it was like an art project. Greg Hill put together these things called groovy packs where he'd fill up the envelope with weird little oddities, maybe some illustration of poem he wrote

21:42 throw a roach from the joint in there and send it through the mail to a list of people, different Discordians across the country. And they would add to it, send it to the next person on the list and eventually come back to him and he'd take that material...and that's kind of what worked itself into subsequent editions of the Principia Discordia, which are way different than the one I have published in the book. And if you haven't seen the fourth edition of the Principia Discordia, check that out! That over time became quite an influence on counterculture but it was one of those subtle influences that took time

22:31 to really spread its strange seeds. And when, you know it was like when that fourth edition came out there's only 500 copies which isn't a whole hell of a lot but became a big influence on things like the Illuminatus trilogy by Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea, and the first edition is dedicated to Greg Hill and Curie Thornley. There's all these references in that Illuminatus to Dysportianism. And I read Illuminatus before I knew anything about Dysportianism, it totally

23:08 It went over my head. It's mentioning the Principia Discordia and Omar Khayyam Ravenhurst, who was Cary Thornley, Malaclipse the Younger who was Greg Hill referring to things called The Honest Book of Truth and I was reading it at that time like just went over my head figures this stuff the authors were making up but All of it was kind of based and influenced on, by, based on influence by a discordianism. And you know that's become a huge influence to the counterculture over the years, the Illuminatis. That's how most people get turned onto Robert Anton Wilson

23:49 Yeah, I've yet to read it but it's high on my list of things to get through. It's a daunting work but having this background now I guess it'll be more cohesive. You know what you need to prepared for when reading that? Look through my material, The Prankster and the Conspiracy. And you know look at Astoria Discordia now maybe find a fourth edition of the Principia Discordia maybe read Cosmic Trigger as well then when you get to Illuminatus you'll be somewhat prepared because you'll understand a lot of these references thing about illuminatis also that people have

24:33 difficulty with and what makes it an amazing book is that it's constantly changing perception from one person to the next. Even within a couple pages, all of the sudden it shifts and you're seeing the story through somebody else's eyes. It's not holding you by the hand telling me that And once you get used to that, which can be a bit disconcerting or disorienting. If you get a handle on that then it's a lot easier read and it makes it a fascinating experience to kind of thrown into that world and in it they explore

25:19 I mean, a lot of that Illuminatus came out of the Dysportian period and when Wilson and Shea were working at Playboy as editors there. Wilson was the editor of the Playboy forum which basically got a lot letters about civil liberties, so he dealt with that. He was into that but he also got a lot of letters about all these crazy conspiracies that were too far out to even run them in Playboy and he and Shea used a lot of that material in Illuminatus

25:58 Yeah, I mean all that stuff is pretty dense and it's funny that has a bit of an initiation process of its own to get into but i really love the Popehood analysis in the book. The decision they made to allow anyone to declare themselves as pope at any time with such a simple doctrine as that they even...I think it's Robert Anton Wilson's writing or your own writing in the book that states people are going to come out naturally in opposition to such a simple rule as that, such a simple order. As everyone can declare themselves the Pope but instead people will naturally inject chaos right away and say well you know you can't declare me a pope unless I agree to it or i don't want to be a pope like people will face resistance even just such a simple thing or be naturally skeptical of it because

26:52 Free handout, you know people like what are you giving me pope hood? I don't want your pope hood. You know something's up here Yeah And that just speaks to the underlying philosophy that the universe is based on chaos and the only order is human perception It's kind of funny that way yeah enough We've probably seen the poke cards there some reproduction in books it's once again sometimes they just send them out to people like they do, they do organized things within the Dysportian society which really back in the late 60s early 70s was never more than you know maybe 20 people across the country that somehow this got in this letter writing circle.

27:42 And you know that certain times in the course a lot of them live close together and they get together for parties and such but what they do is operation line fuck with results in the thing called jakes where are the targets some individual like. and a newspaper editor who maybe wrote something they thought was groovy, say we're going to do with Jake on July 23rd send in different letters and they'd use stationary phony Bavarian Illuminati stationery or their Discordian names

28:22 Them a letter welcoming them to the sporting society and throw in a few pope cards and people get this and go what the hell is this? Yeah, that was one of my favorite pranks that I read about in the book because it's some of the names of The groups they had are so funny And when you see them You see the letterhead it looks very official but do you read the words near like what? The idea that a group of people would pick one Pick one unsuspecting target and just flood them with those letters is super funny. I mean, some of the names of these various branches that they say are the 12 famous Buddha mines, The Brotherhood Of The Lost Of Christ...

29:03 like just the Society for Moral Understanding and Training, the Golden Apple Panthers. And these are like fake secret societies or orders that are sending letters to just some unsuspecting person. It's a really funny prank. Fake but real! I mean each of those were different cabals or branches of the Discordian society that somebody called themselves so how Fake or real were they well, that's that's also a good point. Yeah, it's an interesting point Yeah, man so tell me about what's the go rightly saga here? How did you get interested in these goings-on how did you end up with all this material um Before I was new what I'd heard of discordianism over the years but it didn't Really know what to make of it

29:57 But I was more, got into it through interest in conspiracy stuff and namely Cary Thornley. And I was involved in the zine movement back in the day you know what they called the Zine Revolution late 80s and 90s, and wrote for a lot of zines. And the main zine back there to find out about other zines was Fact Sheet 5 which has a great history there with that it was started by a guy named Mike Gundervoy And sometime in the mid 80s he started putting out this zine that reviewed all the other zines around. This guy was obsessive, he'd review several hundred zines I don't know if you do it once a month, but out fact sheet five really great so i got turned on to a lot of stuff and that's where a lot of cutting edge writing was being done at that time conspiracies UFOs or if you wanted to find out about

30:59 punk music or whatever fringy fringe stuff and so I noticed in fact sheet five Occasionally, they'd have an article by this guy. Curie Thornley he had a column there called conspiracy corner and Never quite knew what to make of a lot of the stuff. He was writing about But something about it intrigued me, it was kind of interesting. It's like well where is this guy coming from? I mean just obscure theories conspiracy theories and then uh i was into looking in the JFK assassination and I noticed probably in fact that he had a 50 page thing that he was sending out called Dreadlock Recollections. Thornley was

31:55 made available about his quote-unquote involvement in the Kennedy assassination. So I got a hold of that and I was even more perplexed, you know because he was talking about things and people involved that I'd never heard about, you know? And I was pretty into it then so once again yeah something intriguing about the fellow but also didn't quite understand what the hell he's writing about all of the time then In 91 or 92, there was a book that came out called Conspiracies Cover-Ups and Crimes by Jonathan Vankin. And in that book several chapters about different conspiracy theories and people on the conspiracy scene and the first chapter was dedicated to Cary Thornley. It talked about how Thornley had known Oswald in the Marines before the Kennedy assassination. How he's writing a book about Oswald

32:56 You know, three years before the Kennedy assassination and it even went down a deeper rabbit hole that formerly suspected that he had been an MK-Ultra victim. That he and Oswald had been part of the Nazi breeding experiment. Yeah! I thought this was pretty out there... All this crazy stuff and also mentioned other things like Jim Garrison had targeted Thornley during his investigation. He believed or claimed that Thornley was one of the Oswald Doubles, a CIA agent and in this chapter it also mentioned the Discordian Society which once again is just another thing there's enough information to process. The Discordian Society is just another little piece of information so I dug that chapter in that book and Vanken

33:54 I talked about during that period of maybe writing a full-blown biography of Cary Thornley, which he never got around to doing. So and i was chomping at the bit to read more about the guy so I started looking into more gathering material got to the point well maybe I'll write that book and um...so that was by the late 90's or so I was getting more serious around 2000 and at that time I received a somewhat cryptic email, had an email address that was one of a lot of people didn't know just friends basically and family but it wasn't involved in my writing or conspiracy stuff. I didn't use it to communicate like that so it's basically private email address

34:49 And I received an email from somebody named Robert Newport that stated Greg Hill, the founder of Discordianism had died on July of that year. This was in July 2000. So I emailed Newport back who I'd called into who he was...I've never heard of him I asked, not...I was vaguely aware of Greg Hill at this time too. But I knew Dysportianism and I knew Thornley was involved so I emailed him back and said did you know Kerry Thornley as well? And Newport emailed me back and said yeah I went to high school with both them. I was one of the founding members of the Dysportion Society.

35:38 That's interesting. So we started corresponding and it turns out he knew Robert Anton Wilson quite well, a lot of other people so I jumped into doing the book and arranged an interview with Newport and Robert Anton Wilson at Wilson's place in Santa Cruz And at that time, Newport he brought along an arm load of materials. He was calling the Discordian Archives and I later used some of that in The Prankster and the Conspiracy book. He let me take it home and I scanned it got it back to him said you know there's a lot of cool stuff here this might make a good book some point if your cool with that we gave thumbs up he is always cool with it. Newport was

36:30 playing around with the idea back then, you know this is 2000 during that period of putting together a kind of Discordian Archives website but he never got around to it. He got interested in other things landscape painting and so I continued staying in touch with him about doing the project at some point was always cool with it then 2009 He said, yeah the next time you're in LA come down here and I'll give you everything. So happened to be going down to LA some business and got together with him that's when he turned me on to the complete archives which was several boxes of material. I figured it was just that arm load stuff but

37:20 tons and tons of stuff which has led to these projects, you know the website and the Distorting Archives book will lead to a few other projects as well. As a forthcoming book that's coming out in a couple months, Caught in the Crossfire by Kerry Thornley Oswald and The Garrison Investigation because in these archives yeah there's a lot Discordian material and other stuff, but there was also a file on Greykills. These are Greykills archives by the way that Newport rescued from probably being dumped into the dumpster when Greykill died. Yeah! And you know in the

38:06 And within that, of course was different editions of the Principia Discordii. There was only which clearly in the first edition which everybody thought was lost but there it was and as well there was a lot of the Thornley garrison investigation materials and so those materials are being used for this next book I mentioned coming out Caught in the Crossfire. Nice! So That is really cool that you got to meet Robert Anton Wilson. I know you had told me that before, but I just wasn't familiar enough with his work for that to mean much and now I just think that's super awesome because if there was one person who died in the past 15 years who I wish I could have gotten on maybe would've been him

38:59 Such a great speaker, super interesting. Can you tell us anything about meeting him? Was it fun? Oh hell yeah! Let me before I forget one little tidbit about these archives so when i got them from Newport in 2009 and asked him...I think I'd asked him between 2000-2009 how he came to contact me and gave the same answer in 2009 was like he had no idea how that all came about But he knew Wilson and was kind of involved in a lot of Wilson's activities in Berkeley during like the early 70s. Wilson would put salons on at his house where they'd get into, I know you're getting into the 8th Circuit stuff and different

39:57 magic ritual and all this, Newport was involved in that scene as well. But yeah as far as meeting Wilson a great guy he was at that time having problems with post-polio syndrome which kicked in again which she'd had issues with over the years so you have to use a walker to get around But that, you know he didn't let that keep him down. He was a big advocate during that period of the use of medical marijuana and there were some controversy all over where they had medical dispensaries in California where Bush was president then they stepped in their gonna arrest people picking up

40:48 their medical marijuana and no way I didn't know they had dispensers but you're talking about the first Bush president right or the second this is the second okay so this was around 2005 or so and you can find if you look on the net probably find it somewhere that there's Wilson he was in a wheelchair at that point picking up his medical marijuana in Santa Cruz where it was big public demonstration. So he was always been a big advocate and he was a plot head, so you can relate to that. Yeah! Yep! So yeah... He was very cool dude, very generous with his time. He would interact with

41:32 Most anybody who approached him it seemed to me. You know he tried to avoid crazies obviously Yeah, any idea how he got so insightful like did he was a member of secret societies? Did he I mean he definitely studied the material Oh, well he got involved in researching different secret societies and went to know like he joined a branch of the OTO and go through all the rituals. And look in the history of different secret societies his brain you know just worked like that he was interested. He deeply examined the work of Alice Macrolian who's really one

42:13 first people to write in a kind of sober manner, really looking at Crowley's work just not jumping on the bandwagon that he was whatever child sacrifice and Satan worshipper but got deeply into Hurley's writings, which are very dense and there is a lot going on there that I would never be able to process. A lot of hidden codes in word games and thats the type of stuff that Wilson was very good on picking up on stuff like that and decoding them. He was a big, huge fan of Finnegan's Weight by Ulysses by Joyce which are just riddled with all of that kind of stuff that the average intellect such as mine wouldn't grasp any of it but you know Wilson was all over stuff like that so yeah very

43:13 intelligent guy and he embraced the counterculture you know was influenced by people like buckminster fuller and. Timothy leary as well it was very tight with timothy leary they basically what's up Eighth Circuit model concept and things like that. Yeah, it's that's dense material But I'd advise anyone to look into at the eight circuits of human consciousness It's a pretty good breakdown of the way people act in the way people think and why people turn out the way they do They've got a lot of interesting information there but man as far as Discordianism, I think a lot of the pranks they pulled are pretty awesome And I know on one hand

43:59 They sort of blew up a lot about rages conspiracy theories and carried out a lot of hoaxes which could be considered. A big nuisance for truth seekers but yeah i think that these guys kinda had like a george carlin energy or even a hundred s thompson are like you said a crowley energy in that they all like to fuck with the seriousness of the power structure and that just by taking the system seriously and respecting the politicians in traditions that gives them power so fuck all that let's spread some rumors and lets us place here itself apart is at the vibe you get yet part of that uh... operation mindful came out of the garrison this issue and so it probably didn't mention that bit because uh... formally got uh... targeted like your son in his investigation garrison claim

44:49 Had mentioned before he claimed formerly was a CIA operative possibly one of the Oswald doubles on and on all this stuff Garrison had a bunch of Investigators, yeah, you know a couple investigators on his staff. He got all these freelance investigators show up in New Orleans and Some of them latched onto some pretty wild theories and so Garrison was getting fed this stuff in all directions. And one of the wilder theories was presented to Garrison by a dude named Alan Chapman, who claimed that the Bavarian Illuminati was behind the assassination and so Thornley caught wind of this and Robert Anton Wilson they were friends too he was looking at Thornley's situation as well thought he was getting screwed around

45:48 And so they, you know, they thought well, you know screw this. They're claiming the Bavarian Illuminati's involved in the assassination, and I'm involved in it. So maybe I'll go ahead and claim that I am a member of the Bavarian Illuminati." And that's when they worked up that Bavarian Illuminati letterheads, and they'd send off letters to Garrison, such people claiming yes, I admit...and he uses this sporting name, Omar Khayyam Ravenburst Or, if Wilson was writing his handle as Mordecai the Foul. And they'd write in saying yes we are the Illuminati but we've actually come here to illuminate you not oppress you those type of stuff so

46:38 Forgot what we were where we're going, but that kind of got the lot of those operation mindfuck Olim activities going back in the day. Yeah and hey man Thank God We got removed from dark matter radio because otherwise I don't know how he could talk about Operation Mindfuck Because we were taken out for using such foul language as that yeah, I had a interesting Experience with Dark Matter Radio. Yeah Care to share? Nothing bad about it. Yeah, this happened just the other night I recently was on Jimmy Church's show familiar with him so he is pretty cool he does a real good show actually on their network and apparently he is warming the seat or holding the place of Art Bell who supposedly going to come back at some time

47:34 And maybe what I'm talking about, we'll do a post for higher side chats about this because there was a guest on the other night by the name of Solaris Blue Raven. I've heard of her Yeah and she's the one who claims to be in mind control victim and the group rushes behind it Mm-hmm...and so there was some weird audio interference that started when she said DARPA And I had happened to be recording that because, uh...I was watching my beloved San Francisco Giants play. So I wanted to listen to the interview later and they couldn't hear it there at the station when they were conducting the interview but i happened

48:20 catch the audio of that and for sure I'll share this on a post on the higher side chat. It was pretty curious incident so yeah maybe that's good way to promote the upcoming posts, higher side chats which all get to your show right on but talking about Wilson I want to share Find it. Have you read the Cosmic Trigger? I haven't except for the there's a couple excerpts in your book from cosmic trigger that definitely got me jazzed up about getting into it This is from this reading one paragraph This was the preface to the new edition anyway, this sums up a lot and short paragraph about Wilson's worldview It says

49:09 My own opinion is that belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence. The more certitude one assumes the less there is left to think about and the person sure of everything would never have any need to think about anything and might be considered clinically dead under current medical standards where the absence of brain activity is taken to mean that life has ended." Yeah, that's smart. I totally agree with that. That's a big... You know, I couldn't have articulated it in that well but when I was growing up in Catholic school that's how I felt and at private school I'm just like how does everybody know? It's intriguing man he was right on or to turn that around a bit you know conspiracy culture as well people who claim ultimate certitude about things

50:07 religion or conspiracies or UFOs And it's very lucky for me that there are so many people out there that are so sure because those of the guests That I generally have but yeah, I always try to maintain a pretty neutral position of yeah That's a you know someone can talk for two hours like that's a great possibility You know and all you can ever say like that's an interesting possibility. That might be true But if you never 100% especially when you're talking about conspiracy materials where experts are trying to keep it from you, but yet You're absolutely certain. You know it's just doesn't really work that way But of course if we all thought like that then might have a pretty boring show so good They have the true believers yeah, you got two otherwise would just be a bunch of I don't know man but uh

50:57 Another you talked about them influencing the counterculture and it's hard to know what is a joke and what is a real. you know, thing that they're talking about and that's obviously part of the genius of it. But they at least claimed ownership for the peace sign for the V because V is of course the Roman numeral for five and in Discordianism 5 is one of the magic numbers there so... It's funny that they actually have a basis for saying that oh yeah we were the ones who started going around throwing up the V and now is that just convenient? convenient little anecdote that gives them an excuse to say so or is that the legitimate answer it's Impossible to know but it is funny. I don't know they seem to be using it pretty early on and Yeah, it signifies also the law of fives there's two you know the two fingers up in three down plus Three as the law of fives which is big in this morning isn't so Bill? I don't know

51:58 Another thought thing that I really liked, because i'm all into...I'm very anti-capitalistic. I would love to just burn the system down. I like things like The Venus Project and resource based economy ideas and Zeitgeist And they actually had a little thing they were circulating for awhile the PERS and the PUTS movements. I don't know if you remember what those anagrams stand for but those were pretty awesome. I was wondering if they ever really got any legs? I think that they just floated that stuff to I forget what some of the acronyms are. Well, for...I wrote them down because I knew I wasn't going to remember but PURSE was permanent universal rent strike exchange and PUTS was permanent universal tax zap and they're just basically like don't pay your taxes and don't pay your rents because we came up with some anagrams that sound cool yeah

52:58 That, well you know they were into anarchist libertarian. And the libertarian back, Thornley was the editor of a libertarian newsletter, a cutting edge one back in the mid 60s and where they were coming from back then is a helluva lot different than libertarianism is today and he was leaning more towards anarcho-libertarianism. And so that's how he and Robert Anton Wilson put the, originally this corresponding because they were both editing a magazine and became aware of stuff each other was writing about one thing that started the conversation was about the guy named Anarchist named Leander Spooner who started the first private mail delivery

53:51 system, non-government mail delivery that actually did better than the federal system and made a profit and all this. But the feds whatever for whatever reason didn't like that and shut them down they got interested in these thoughts and like groups that would create their own monetary currency and all of that And you'll see the Scordians came up with their own monetary system alternate currency called flax notes and they even play with these ideas in the Illuminatus trilogy. Part of it was inspired by Emperor Norton in San Francisco, kind of crazy brilliant homeless dude in San Francisco who way back in the 1800s came up with his own what he would call

54:47 Norton notes or whatever yeah for McCurdy's currency so the discordians different discordians came up with their own flax notes which also are seeing the story of dyscordia book, so they're into all these anarcho-libertarian type of Thinking you know. Yeah that's That's funny about the post office thing. I actually had an idea a few years ago when I was stuck at the DMV because I hate it so much, you know talking about organizations that could be privatized and made better than the way government does it. How cool would it be if there was a place where

55:27 They, it was a private company. They had all the certifications and authority to do all the things you need to do at a DMV but it was um... You could call it The DMB and it'd be like a bar so you could sit in the bar, have a couple beers watch the TV they'll call your number take your picture for your license you'll do your registration But uh I thought that would be so ironic to make it a bar of course you're not gonna Do driver's tests or let drunk people do it but Why can't it just be an enjoyable experience to wait around and take care of some shit? Why does it have to be god-awful miserable

56:03 It's because there is no competition, there is no incentive to make it good. Because you have to deal with them and go to jail if you don't. Yeah they could even set up a... With this idea of yours DNB simulated driving you know? And you would take the chance you could blow to see what your alcohol level is. Are sure you want to take the simulated test? Ah! Go ahead. You know they give you few chances too ya'know? I think that's great idea. The DNB's my god. It's the worst. Yeah, I agree. People are just standing there you're all agitated and the person in front of you is pissed off and then you're stressed out you got to take a test and blah blah blah blah. And we were talking about

56:50 kind of the prankster energy of these guys, of discordanism in general. And the only person I can think of—I mentioned him earlier but—the only other person who has that type of energy was Hunter S Thompson you know he used to make up stories about politicians and circulate them and just say fuck it i don't care if its true I just want people...i just wanted to infect the culture And I was wondering, did you ever see or hear about any link between Hunter S. Thompson, Gonzo Journalism and the Discordian guys? Because they're definitely philosophically aligned. No! And the Discordians were obviously lesser known than Hunter S.

57:29 Thompson, he was a pretty big name by that period. So but yeah I can see some parallels there like Thompson's story that he floated at who was it Muskie who is the guess he was a presidential candidate at times 72 election that he was mainlining Ibogaine and that would explain why you have these different irrational outbursts and whatnot. He just put it out there, you know? It's well, I mean. I understand the angle like today We just call that like disinformation today it's like a big problem in the conspiracy world a lot of paid shills and all that stuff people are really Concerned about that and III do get that but I also have a real natural appreciation for better or worse For that trickster energy like I just appreciate it. I like all those guys who've ever liked taking that kind of up

58:29 I mean, just in my private life it's always funny to watch someone take a few too many mushrooms or see the panic in someone's eyes when they have their belief system challenged or their ego melted. It's something people should enjoy and kind of have a sense of humor about and that's what these kinds of people were all about. Yeah man you gotta keep that perspective or you'll go crazy! Well here is another thing that suspects You know, Greg Hill. He worked for the Bank of America for 23 years. Kerry Thornley wrote a book about Oswald pre-Kennedy assassination that's a little close to the conspiracy. I mean Timothy Leary and Terrence McKenna are both suspected of being CIA assets that's coming up more and more in this stuff that i'm looking into And it makes you wonder if these people were just doing this out of enjoyment or if they had some nefarious ulterior motives

59:25 I don't think so. I think Thornley got pretty deep into certain things, and it appears that Thornley and Oswald might have been indeed might have been MK Ultra victims they both served in Japan at Atsugi base which was where all that stuff was going on with you know their testing LSD on different soldiers and stuff there. Oddly enough, the two big storage facilities for LSD during that period by the CIA were the two bases that Thornley happened to be stationed at. Wow! And so there's a lot of evidence and I share this in the latest new book that will be coming out

1:00:16 Thornley and Oswald were both manipulated by these type of programs. As far as, you know these things coming out about McKenna and Leary the McKenna thing I don't put a lot of Credence into Larry. I mean a lot of they know they knew where the LSD was coming from Mm-hmm, but hey figured they'd take it and use it to their own ends now at one point Larry basically he was given the option of ratting on some people or getting put away for a long long time and repairs that He you know

1:00:59 Actually did cooperate with the government so this is another thing where people point their fingers, but I don't necessarily see Right it. It's easy to judge people who are under the thumb of the FBI or the CIA? It's easy to be like oh you know you've turned on the movement. I don't know it just yeah seems like he was in a tough position but Yeah, and we still don't know all the details about that. It's really not clear how much of that he did you know but he was Larry I'm talking about was definitely pressured by the government mm-hmm and and persecuted you know for freedom of thought You know is much like Wilhelm Reisch

1:01:43 These type of guys because we're talking for Larry. It was only a couple joints that probably weren't even his yeah, and I actually listened to a Q&A with Robert Anton Wilson where someone asked his thoughts on Timothy Leary was yet Timothy Leary working with the government He basically said that he thought that Timothy O'Leary was being harassed for a long, long time and that they tried to extract information from him often. It seems clear by the results that he never gave them enough information to be happy so he obviously was reluctant with what he was giving them and They eventually locked him in jail like it's hard to say that person is cooperating there in jail for Christ sake

1:02:30 Yeah, yeah. But everybody's got a theory and everybody is distrustful of this guy or that guy and I'm a big McKenna fan! And I like what he's saying and I guess I can understand the perspective that his whole approach Was a peaceful nonviolent approach which from the elites perspective if you can just keep everybody Doing some drugs and singing kumbaya and just complaining and not raising arms then yeah that could be Have an effect of sedating the masses or at least that counterculture I guess I could see that perspective, but he seems like a genuine guy

1:03:08 Yeah, and I don't discount a lot of those theories but who knows. As far as some of these characters, Maeve Russell claimed that She made a bunch of claims about Robert Anton Wilson and Timothy Leary. And they had written, I have some old articles where they were talking about ways to reprogram yourself and different mind control and this type of stuff. Neuro-linguistic programming kind of stuff? Yeah, Russell latched onto that she claimed that

1:03:47 Lurie and Wilson were this mind control tag team that like showed up for instance with Larry flint. Yeah founder of hustler magazine know his whole story if they were sent into brainwash him in all this far out stuff in the letter from conspiracy journal from like 1977 where Wilson addressed made Russell's claim he Admitted yeah that he was a diabolical CIA agent receiving gold bricks from Rockefeller that were delivered each month I Met with this guy. Yeah, a lot of these people if they were well paid placed Agents of Rockefeller whoever they

1:04:35 Didn't live that lavish lifestyle. That's for sure yeah, well man I mean we're getting kind of down to it is there an aspect of? Discordianism that resonates with you that we haven't touched on or glossed over Oh no, I think we've touched on it all. Just kind of that philosophy of the prankster trickster used to illuminate or possibly get to certain truths that you can't get to without taking a kind of humorous approach And, uh... what else? Just a- Yeah and it's been interesting. My life being in quote unquote Discordian these different book projects they've just been littered with synchronicities so there there's some magical component there that you know how does that happen who is who is the master that makes

1:05:41 create our own reality, but since I've tapped into this web of discordianism and met a lot of cool people and have continually get people contacting me and laying new stuff on me. So it's kind of become the focal point of channeling, continually channel this information out of this old material that people have never really seen to get it out there so people have a better idea of really what, how, how discordianism all came about.

1:06:17 Yeah, I think it's awesome. I think it's awesome that you're doing that and I appreciate you sending me a copy of the book! The stuff you've scanned in is really cool to see and It's always a pleasure to hang out with you a bit man We got ParanoiaCon coming up the first weekend of August Are you gonna lay some more psychedelic serenading on the unsuspecting attendees again this year or no? I don't think I'm gonna be able to make it this year but it'll be a game time decision I hear it's only just one day deal this year That's news to me, but you know how news of these events happen. I thought it was a two-day no, I think it's been Stripped down a bit to one day Last I talked to Ron unless he changed again It's gonna focus on mind control and the counterculture that type of stuff we were talking about interesting Yeah man, it was fun last time but um

1:07:14 Well, you know if you're not gonna make it there is there anything else You want to tell the people about any other projects or where they can contact you and interrupt all your hard work? Definitely check out if they're interested in this sport Ian stuff to check out the website which is story of the scordia.com and yeah, I think be contacted through their or I'm not hard to find. That's the main thing, then yeah obviously promote this story of the Scordia book that's why we're talking today and also the forthcoming book Caught in the Crossfire

1:07:53 Awesome man. Well, who knows where Discordianism would be today without you breathing new life into it and doing the work to archive these things online and bring them into the digital age? It's definitely a respectful tribute so I appreciate it man take care of yourself and Hail Aris! All hail Discordia! I got my talking sacks behind this painted box I'm putting on a show Can't see the strings My mother thinks I should take it on the road These things i'm trying on Every hat feels wrong, there's no flair I strike a pose and bust a vogue And think when will I get Someday I know If I let be on my own How far would some Someday I know Throw on some nylon

1:09:05 And bust a hammer dance I'm kicking moves till you can't touch this Tucked in my quarter, I've got my beastie boys tape Fight for my right to party No I feel like Darth Vader with his helmet on my head I can see I'm in there somewhere past the plastic shield When will I find Sunday? Oh if I left me of Sunday

1:09:44 Someday I won't be so self-defeated To a highlight from the high roof Be the smoothest dancer And I'll have the answers I'll take the stand and raise my hands And obey Someday, you know If i left me on my own How far would I go? Someday

1:10:26 Someday I'll know how far would i go. Someday, someday, someday I'll know