Seriah Azkath | The Paranormal Subculture, High Strangeness, & Magical Practice

00:12 The planet's puppet masters all most surely have a plan. There clearly may be something there beyond And until we thoroughly test Astro's jested view I'm the lore we think we know THC, The Science Chef Show Greg Colwood and company!

01:09 Who you gonna call, Hireside Chatters? Doing what we do from the Sunshine State. I'm Greg Carlwood and even if you haven't had a paranormal high strangeness encounter personally if you ask around your probably going to learn that your only a few degrees of Kevin Bacon away from some pretty remarkable and bizarre happenings from people ya know and trust Orbs of light in the sky, saucer craft flyovers at night, shadow figures above their beds, humanoid beings in the woods NDEs strange premonitions and a wide range of logic breaking experiences that are happening all around us to people who oftentimes don't even bother to bring it up. Now what is any of it? And what the implications might be your question still just as unanswered as ever

01:51 But to at least try to circle around them, it's helpful to talk to those who have been engaging in this stuff for a long time like Soraya Azkath. The well-respected radio man and host of the ever popular paranormal show Where Did The Road Go? which has been going strong for over a decade, where he's interviewed many of the best researchers and thinkers in the space. Soraya also hosts a metal music show called The Last Exit For The Lost which has been ongoing now for would you believe it 30 years But when it comes to the colleagues I've been riding alongside with for many years that I've yet to actually meet, he is top of the list. So I'm psyched to have him here! The radio host of Renown, Strange Stuff story collector and finder of The Road, Soraya, welcome to The Higher Side. Thank you

02:39 I've been listening to you forever. Well, back in the day there weren't many things to listen to so... You're one of the first ones i found when i started listening looking for paranormal podcasts. One of the first ones i settled on for a while. Heck yeah! I know we both had a time listening to Red Ice Radio before their big transition to alt-right politics but that was one of the early ones too. That show beat everybody to the punch. Yes, yeah I took a lot of inspiration from the way he did interviews because he read the books you let the authors talk. He asked good questions. I was like yes this is what you should do! Yeah i agree he was a lot better at that time with early internet there weren't a lot of choices. I was listening to Coast To Coast but there's a commercial break every 10 minutes just as soon as it gets starts getting into their material it's like well we're gonna take a break and then the next two minutes is just getting back

03:30 to where you were and it's a big mess. And it never goes deep because they're going for lowest common denominator audience so they can't get deep into the weeds because they'll lose people. People don't know how good they got at these days with all the choices but we've been in the game for about as long as anybody and If people aren't familiar with you and they were to go to your YouTube channel and search your most popular shows, nine of the top 10 are David Politis interviews. And yes he is great. I don't see David being as active as he was.

04:20 Now you're going for the UFO connection, which I don't even think is really that strong. But I had him on in 2019 when The Hunters documentary came out because that was a good angle on the material of people going missing and national parks To isolate people who are out hunting. It's like well, yeah These are people who know their surroundings they know how to survive somewhat They've got some skill in the wilderness environment and they're getting snatched by whatever this thing is I don't know but yeah nine of the top ten David Paulitis What do you think about?

04:56 That corpus of material, the man. What's he up to? When was the last time you interviewed him? I still think it's been five years for you too. It might be more than that. It was The Hunter's Book when it came out. He had issues with Steph Young who is also one of the top interviewers on my channel. Yeah yeah. He had issues with her claiming she was plagiarizing his stuff which she was not doing And because I wouldn't just blindly agree with him, he stopped talking to me. He wanted me to go out and say that she was like jeopardizing his stuff and copying his stuff...and she wasn't! There was nothing she ever copied of his. Well nothing- look I had Steph Young on as well only once i believe

05:43 And I do think there's a lot of similarities, like they're looking at the same material but you can't have a monopoly on other people's missing reports. Like...I mean, a reporter can report on any outside event that happens so I kind of see his point that it steals his thunder a little bit but- Yeah but he was flat out accusing her of plagiarizing which she was not doing Fair enough. So you, your distance from David Politis is a little more calculated or I guess there's a little more reasoning behind it? Well for me it just hasn't happened. There's that and there's also the fact that many people wrote me with just stories of stuff he did to them

06:26 And then also, like showing me evidence that he's leaving data out on cases especially more recent ones. Oh no! Now this is new to me So there are a lot of cases that were solved There was a whole... We've done some missing 411 deep dives where we've explored cases in his early books and in those cases it's very possible That data was not available when he wrote the books. Since then, they've digitized a lot of newspapers so live on air we were going through and actually looking up some of the cases and finding oh this person was found this person walked to the next town and got a job This person was found. There were a couple that actually ended up being weirder than what David reported, and again I think that's because he didn't have access to the data but he is not going back and looking at these cases now And there were definitely some that looked like they just weren't weird cases and he was selling them as weird cases and leaving bits out That kind of disillusioned me He still has some very good case in there but he isn't going through it thoroughly enough

07:27 And I think he just wants to make them weird even when they're not, because there's only so many you can have. You know? Yeah that's disappointing. I didn't know we were starting off going so hard at David Paulides but conversations are organic i suppose. I just thought he always kind of wanted it to be Bigfoot and... He was kinda good about not necessarily spelling that out directly but at the same time I don't think Bigfoot can accomplish for all those strange cases. The cases, you know and you correct me if these aren't are the ones that actually are not as weird as he said but people being found miles away from where they disappeared oftentimes too young to travel that far being found up a mountain a kid shouldn't be able to climb there right? Being found without articles of clothing sometimes the bodies never found and we're talking thousands of people in national parks yep

08:22 Yep. No, there are definitely weird cases in there it's just he's grabbing everything is the problem like I said the first couple of books Yeah, he probably didn't have access to all the online newspapers because they were still digitizing them. So that's totally forgivable but later cases especially with some of the drowning stuff He made claims that just weren't true He left out very pertinent information That looks like humans Were the cause of the disaster party? Yeah so it It did us a good service by bringing this stuff to light

08:58 but he is like you mentioned he's doing the UFO thing one of the last times I talked to him, he said that uh he wanted to push things toward UFOs and away from Bigfoot because he felt like he made more money at UFO conferences. And i was like oh that's not how this should work you know Right. And that is kind of one of the big criticisms people always make about this genre, this subculture is well you're just trying to make money and I've always pushed back on that because for the most part you are sacrificing real money For the ridicule to get a little piece of a much smaller pie and you can't fault people for trying to pay their bills like every fucking person does. But this idea that it's such a boon to your economic circumstance, to leave your cush job in the police force and become the people are missing in national parks occasional coast to coast and where did the road go? Guest is not.

09:57 The way it really works, but I understand once you start to get a taste and you get some popularity and it starts to wane because you're talking about the same small genre. You have to pivot because the bills still come in then maybe you lose a little bit of your credibility and that's why we haven't talked to him at five years, but on the subject of Bigfoot I've heard you refer to Joshua Cutchin and Tim Renner as the Jacques Vallée and John Keel of our generation. I think that's fair, they do the best 40 encrypted research of anyone i know and their work on where the footprints end

10:37 Is really great and that's for people haven't read it stories that lean away from a physical humanoid you know the cases that are just too weird where the footprints then you know where becomes kind of spectrally. And uh, you actually I believe had something to do with this some of this approach kinda came from conversations with you about The idea of a wilderness poltergeist is that right? Yeah they They were both leaning more toward the flesh and blood idea when I met them. I was not, but when i started pointing out that you get poltergeist activity in a lot of these class B cases in the woods... You get vocalizations, you get stones thrown, you get things that if they were happening in a house you would call it a poltergeist and I said it's kind of like a poltergeist in the woods and Joshua named it The Wilderness Poltergeist

11:27 And that kind of made them both kind of rethink things. That's what ended up being where the footprints end. It is really interesting to think about the fact that the poltergeist world, the ghost world... That's kind of a lot of the stuff I avoid. I just don't find it all that interesting but in general, the boxes that get checked are like books moving off the shelf or table wrapping or things moving across the room and then you take it outside and rocks get thrown twigs break and we just assume well there must be something over there throwing rocks it's like why you didn't think there was something physical in your living room throwing, the boss of ben franklin across the room will that end you do get rocks thrown inside houses you got them raining on the roof you got them raining in the house.

12:15 You get vocalizations and mimicry the same way you do with Bigfoot. You get knocking, so if you're outside in the woods it's a wood knock from Bigfoot but if it's in the house it's a ghost knocking but at the same time it's still just knocking You know the poltergeist doesn't necessarily mean ghost, it's a description of behavior and effects. And you see those same effects in the wilderness that you do inside a house. Really poltergeists are one of those things that follow all paranormal stuff So people who have seen UFOs, people who've had near death experiences. People looking for Bigfoot, people who think they're in haunted places that they're saturated with poltergeist events. Right? Yeah the whole hitchhiker phenomenon is bringing that kind of stuff home after visiting Skinwalker Ranch or something to that degree but I think something that is a commonality between us is that we both like the narrative breaking cases The stranger stuff that doesn't conform

13:15 the typical narratives. And I think that probably comes from talking to as many researchers as we have and hearing as many stories, when you hear a story that hits the same beats over and over it helps to verify its credibility because you never know about one individual but when you have several dozen individuals who have the same story it's like okay well if even half of them are telling the truth then this is a very weird thing that happens but then you get these cases where it's just like you cannot fit it in any box. And to me, those are the most fun but do you have a favorite type of high strangeness story? Certain boxes that you like to see checked when you're assessing a case and say oh yeah that one's going on the top shelf. Just stuff I haven't heard before generally its uh... there's plenty of those. There is a lot very unique experiences because I think these things are very personal and so when someone

14:11 first i like when people are skeptical of their own experiences so what they say to me this is what happened i don't know maybe i imagined it but it didn't feel that way you know like when they have that self doubt there not just like oh yeah i was talking to an alien from andromeda galaxy in a year ago okay And I don't necessarily doubt that they believe that, but I doubt their interpretation. Whereas when someone is skeptical and just gives you what they experienced, that's more interesting to me even if it's not like a really major experience. I'm interested in how it affected them because sometimes a simple thing can have a very profound effect on somebody and I do think this stuff is transformative. I think it's actually positive. I think it's the same thing that you saw

14:57 in Aboriginal cultures when you would make a shaman. I think this is the shamanistic awakenings, in a sense. Yes, I agree. I believe my buddy Gordon White from Rune Soup he has talked and studied more of the indigenous shamans and what they say and there's a phrase that he said once where they made a comment we're not interested in the ones that take the bus. This is a comment about like flying saucers, like they are having direct spirit contact and when it comes to orbs in the sky or crafts like that they're really... That's boring to them because they'd rather see The Being you know in the light of the fire whatever happens so just to say we're not really that interested in the ones that take the bus always stuck out as a cool thing to say to me

15:49 But this idea that it affects people and is personal. We both did an interview about the film Witness to Another World, which if people don't remember it's a simple Mexican or Central American man I believe and he's taken on a ship and his horse was hurt and then as horse got healed and he went on the ship and there's all this futuristic stuff and he gets this crazy download experience and he comes away with healing abilities And then he looks into his family lineage and finds out that his ancestors, his grandparents great-grandparents were healers. Were shamans and this documentary got made and probably got on our radar because Jacques Vallee studied the case so intimately but that was exactly what he said is these encounters are extremely personal and there's no way to kind of take the person and their context out of the experience

16:47 it still retain the same value. And so yeah, it is intertwined and I guess that's a great point. That I think was brought to my attention from Red Pill Junkie who lives down in Mexico City and he was like we got to do a show on this fantastic thing about him was that he had all those experiences and they really bothered him most of his life. And then he went back to his native tribe, and talked to them, and they gave him context for what he was experiencing because in that UFO experience he also met his dead father Yeah, that's not an uncommon thing. So it's like he was moved and it healed him to be able to talk to these people and get a context for his experience? Yes. And when it comes to what that stuff is I definitely think I'm kind of past the ETH, the ET hypothesis

17:40 The ETH seems way too connected to the military and the CIA. The people who wrote those early books that are firmly ETH, our military guys all the big TV documentaries push that narrative ancient aliens obviously became ubiquitous in our culture and that is largely promoting well they're aliens and their astronauts from distant worlds they just came in the past two And so I think it's largely a red herring. I know you kind of agree, but man with all the cases we've both digested it's hard to find any box that they all fit into. Well that's the thing. I think there is a lot of different stuff going on. It may work through some of the same mechanisms like when I was talking about poltergeists and that psychokinetic energy, that PK energy

18:28 We've verified that exists in labs, which is an important thing. Even though there'll be skeptics who say it wasn't good enough, it's well good enough to pass any other scientific rigor if we weren't dealing with psychic abilities. So PK energy is something that we have scientifically proven exists—or have scientifically proven exists And I think that is sort of the energy that this stuff uses, regardless whether it's something coming from us or an other. And that's why sometimes it looks very similar. What do you think of the take that poltergeist activity emerges in houses with young girls going through puberty? Because I've heard that if you look at the vast majority of cases they have a young girl going through this process in the home

19:23 Whether it's a visiting kid who is being babysat by grandparents or something, and that energy is kind of connected. I think that's interesting because you might have a personal reason why you think there could be some merit to that sort of perspective right? Oh yeah no there's definitely something to that but that's a very limited view. I've met so many people with poltergeist activity and usually their experience... Usually its a liminal point in their life and usually they're experiencing a lot of stress at the time So stress is one of those things that can kick in poltergeist activity. It's just that when they were researching it initially, they were finding like with the Enfield Poltergeists, that's a perfect case because you had three young girls and one of them was probably generating energy and then when they started getting attention, the stress started lifting and the poltergeist activity stopped and they started faking it because they didn't want to lose their attention

20:16 Interesting. And so that's, that's a fairly common thing but yeah it can have... It's not just young girls it can happen to anybody I mean I've had poltergeist activity and like I said if you're going out into the woods looking for Bigfoot you might be experiencing poltergeist activity and that energy might be coming from you well you know a big part of your story I find so interesting is that when you were going through the puberty stage, you apparently had a lot of Kundalini experiences. Yeah and I didn't know what that was right? I mean especially in a pre-internet world in a house that probably doesn't have parents that can provide the context for what it is but I am interested in that because I've only really heard about it a few times obviously it's ubiquitous in our subculture but

21:11 She is kind of all about the goddess and the Egyptian goddess and what happened to the feminine in our culture. And, The way she tells her story is she was a scholar I believe of just religions She was having sex with a partner that was kind of a hookup and she had a spontaneous mid coitus Kundalini energy flowing through her body and it spilled out onto her partners body, he felt it inside his body. And she was like this is a conscious entity again You even people experiencing stuff think it's something outside of themselves. Maybe a spirit and entangled with the person, but maybe it's just energy. But I always thought that was super interesting and she thought that

21:59 the role of the divine feminine in society was to provide these experiences. And so just like psychedelics are suppressed or anything that alters consciousness was suppressed, the feminine gifts themselves were suppressed. Talk to us about your kundalini experiences I hear way less with men? Yeah actually, so do I but mine was just a spontaneous awakening it started with hallucinations that I knew were hallucinations. Uh, used to play trombone...I see steam coming out of the end of the trombone when i'm playing it's like in fourth grade and i'm like well no that's not real but i'm looking at it and so i'd had my mom come into the room i played wouldn't do it she'd leave the room it would start doing it again

22:41 I'd be going to sleep and i hear stuff rattling, and I would think something's blowing around on the porch or something. And again I called my mom in an she'll be like there is nothing! I don't know what's going on? And again like I'm hearing it, I know I am hearing it, I know I am seeing it with the steam I knew that wasn't real There was no mechanism that would cause steam to come out of the end of trombone unless you gimmicked it. But then it started hurting and I started getting pains down what, I didn't realize at the time were chakra points and I went to so many doctors, I went to psychologists everyone gave me a clean bill of health which then resulted in my parents thinking I was just making it up. So, it made my life very hard for a while because they just assumed well you're lying we don't know why you're lying but your lying and I'm like I am not lying I am in tremendous amount of pain and that's what is does when it gets blocked causes pain so at some point I was reading like Fate magazine and there was a oh what was it Llewellyn? I think Llewellyn had this Llewellyn New Times thing that they could send ya for free

23:44 So I signed up for it, they sent it. And the first thing on it was a book on Kundalini and here's a list of all the things that I'm experiencing and out of the whole list there was only one thing that I wasn't experiencing and I went to the library and took out some books on Kundalini and just blew my mind because this is everything I've been experiencing in the last 10 years. So obviously you were able to clear some of that energy? Yes! Get it way under control. Now, the fun side of that is I also have heard you talk about tantric experiences with partners who also have had Kundalini experiences. Tell us about like maybe a peak experience in that regard because...I mean, I know it's pretty intimate but I'm also just really fascinated with

24:32 how that scales up. It works, it's like connecting electrical circuits so it definitely alters your consciousness in that setting and if it is done right you're literally moving energy between two people in a current and its more intimate than anything you can do just physically and it definitely leaves you feeling very empower it afterwards? Dr. Kiyava kind of insinuated that you can actually use this as a mechanism for prophecy or various spiritual insights, I mean there's many ways to crack open the door but similarly to how people would say mushrooms have done that for them she said that this experience kind of like they came away both like

25:17 more in tune with their higher self or the knowledge field or something to that degree. Would you sign off on that? Yeah, absolutely I mean after all this started I started getting a lot of prophetic dreams Eventually, I started playing around with magic and that worked really well for me and some of these dreams they weren't just prophetic dreams That's kind of the wrong word because I would be interacting with something in a dream that would give me information. And it would be very specific information, and there may be other dream stuff around it but there'd be specific points of information and I would wake up and write it all down. In one case, it took six or seven years before that came to pass every single information point hit. And I was like okay this is the person I was looking for! Just recently my mother died in 2018

26:06 and about four years before that i woke up with a date in my head, it was september 2018 but i wrote it down immediately and then under it I wrote, i think this is when mom dies. And i didn't like that but thats what i felt So two weeks before that date, she died. Oh man. And like I have that data in my calendar. I'd forgotten all about it and so just, I put it in my calendar for that date. So it would pop up on my Google calendar and it popped up and I went holy crap, you know? Like that was two weeks ago. Yeah. That is a wild story. And I do think like if I had a type of case I like most it's probably the download experience.

26:56 I got hit with this beam of light and then I got all this information and I can't even put it into words. And it's taken me 10 years to unpack even a fraction of it." Yeah, yeah. But then a lot of times the details are vague and it's like well they've all this information give me something you know? Can we say actionable? The only time I had anything like a download experience was when we were driving to Washington DC to see Nightwish play right before we get on this big highway Something hit me and I don't know what it was. I literally was in like an altered state for a moment, and I felt like a bunch of information was put into my head. And I was like, what the hell was that? It felt like someone had opened a book flipped through it and I picked up the stuff from the book and then they took the book away. And I went, What was that? Now I'm driving and I'm just like okay whatever. We get on this highway and five minutes later the car in front of us we're doing 70-80 miles per hour, the car in front of us on this five lane highway

27:51 must have blown a tire or something and it just kind of zips to the left, slams into the car next to it and just starts spinning. And it's directly in front of us that highway is packed. And I didn't even panic. I just knew what to do. And I just kinda like drove past it as it was spinning so it was paralleled to us and just kept going and didn't even break a sweat. And I'm like Is that what was just put in my head? Like What What was that and I was driving my friend's car, and he's white. He's freaking out He's like you know he's all pale it is like pull over pull over and I'm like

28:26 why were we're fine you know how to describe it like a book of knowledge being flipped through and you kind of only get you see enough of it to know that's a lot of dense information but you pull away and you can recount much of what you saw just that there was something dense and valuable and chock full of information. It was just like this unconscious information so I knew what to do when that happened, at least that's what it felt like maybe it was coincidental maybe I just handled it really well. Sure and like I mentioned the idea Narrative breaking cases like let's talk about that a little bit because I'm just curious if you have found very many conclusions about this stuff. I know, i've also heard you say that finding A conclusion is not the goal and not that important

29:15 but you know eth that we grew up with it always presented as like this foregone conclusion and then you hear about cases that break that where the dead show up what least rebirth stuff yeah i know you might not be the biggest fan of some of material but his book them is made up of stories that he got after he wrote communion, that they just had in a shoebox. So to me those are pre-internet stories assuming they're unaltered and they're very weird. A lot of them are... Graze came to me and told me that my daughter who died two weeks ago is fine. And it's like well, well that's a whole different context. That's the angel context. I like those narrative breaking cases but

30:00 What do you circle around? What kind of circle can you draw that incorporates the greatest number of cases because the ETH is easy to break. The occult box is a little harder to break, that it's all a living dream box is basically impossible to break because it could you know, it's almost like a jailbreak for just being too big. Right right I mean it's the same as saying we're living in a hologram or simulation you can't really prove it one way or another yeah me and the ETH thing broke for me when I read Kenneth Ring's Omega Project because he was looking at near-death experiences and people who had UFO contacts, and he found that even though the experiences were very different the after effects were almost identical. And one of those after effects is that people would have Kundalini experiences but they would like... He's looking at this going why are these two things these two things seem completely different

30:58 affecting people the same way and that really hit me cuz i'm like why would aliens have anything to do with us dying in a den of my cool wait about it what if its not aliens and what if thats not what happens when we die, what is this is a completely different one for just making assumptions we shouldn't be making this stuff is beyond what weekend. accurately perceive. I mean, perception is such a fuzzy thing to begin with our brains filter out most of reality and it interprets us, interprets it for us It's not like we're getting a one-to-one when things come into our senses Our brain takes the inputs and then interprets it which is why people sometimes see things differently So when you get to something that is in like UFO encounter or ghost encounter

31:45 not a common encounter. I think the brain doesn't know what to do with that, so you can have two people standing side by side one sees something and one doesn't because that other person's brains probably going nope don't know what that is filtering that out and the other person's brains going don't know what that is let's throw a gray alien on it or now or maybe a monster I mean I've always said that some of these one-off weird monster encounters Could be someone wondering and walking in the woods and they come across a wandering bit of consciousness and their brain goes what is that i don't know what that is things i don't know where scary.

32:22 Well, what's scary? Monsters. Monsters are scary! It's a monster and then the person has a monster encounter and they get scared they run away and no one else ever sees it because that it wasn't actually that thing I agree with that I love to focus on just the variants you know I'll interview someone who is hardcore ufologist now be like If you look at the cases and all the different things people see, these aren't ships coming off an assembly line on some distant planet. These aren't there B-2 bombers or just so much variance each one is unique I mean, some people see archetypal shapes but it's still there. So much variance and even in the same encounter that things will change shape so that doesn't really work for me and same with the beans and same with cryptids you know? There's definitely a contingency in the crypted researcher world that still maintains their

33:18 categorized creatures. And it's like, no because there's too many of them and they're kind of one-offs how are you going to suggest they find mates and they produce offspring? No people say you've never seen a baby pigeon. You'll be also have never seen a baby Jersey devil. There's just the one right. It is like one of those things it seems...it is something with consciousness I've interviewed a few people who talk about the dream reality. And like you say, simulation, I kind of lean away from the simulation language and go more towards the dream language because we have computers yeah that's in good analogy but we also dream like dreaming is an incredibly natural aspect of our reality

34:02 What if you're just in a denser dream and your waking state than in your nightstate because the dream state can account for an extreme infinite amount of variance and various creatures that you could see I've seen my pets all wearing trench coats like there was a pet mafia when I was a kid. Uh, these kinds of things sound more like the encounters that people have. They're just in they spill over into waking life sometimes. No there's definitely a dream logic to some paranormal encounters. There's no doubt about that I mean the simulation thing... The first person I ever interviewed on Where Did the Road Go was Jim Elvich, who wrote a book called The Universe Solved. Which was tongue-in-cheek but he talks about the evidence for us being in a digital reality and he does a fairly convincing argument with that He has another book called Digital Consciousness that he put out later as well That just shows that reality at least the way we perceive reality does seem to function more digitally than analog

35:01 but I can't even get into explaining that. That's on him, but like...I'll use video games a lot of times as analogies just because I think they work well like dealing with the concepts of free will and fate and things like that Like you can have a computer game all the code is there it could be right in front of you the entire game everything that could possibly happen So in a way it's all predetermined because you can only take so many paths, but when you're playing the game you don't know what those paths are. Even if it is an open world game that you're still restricted by certain things that you can do obviously the world can be infinite

35:43 So you're pushed along a certain path and I suspect maybe that's what happens in life too. We experience time linearly but it may not be happening that way, and there may be certain paths we can take but certain things that we always have to come back to continue on I think that makes sense. So let me ask you about some of your favorite guests or the ones who you think have the most unique takes are the ones who get it mostly right? Obviously, your archive goes back over a decade to there have to be some greats that stick out in your mind. Well first year I had both Patrick Harper on who you've had on as well and that I absolutely love his work and he's an awesome guy

36:33 He's definitely, I mean like like i think his book Demonic Reality is a potential explanation for this stuff. It's just not provable...like a lot of it unfortunately But it's solid. It's not one of those things where it doesn't account for this or...it does, it actually accounts for everything! There is no way to prove that what happening. George Hansen who wrote The Trickster and the Paranormal which was an incredibly important book he was a very interesting guest. The late Jeff Ritzman I absolutely loved having on because he was great too kind like not only did you have his own

37:09 really weird experiences but he was great to kind of like brainstorm with. Him I'm unfamiliar with He used to do Paratopia with Jeremy Vainey and actually since Jeff passed away, Jeremy's been putting up all the old paratopias and i never heard Paratopia. I found Jeff through his appearance on Project Archivist And he was talking about his experiences and I'm like, oh my God. I got to talk to this guy. I feel like I have a lot in common here and going back through these old peritope is I never listened to they were basically saying a lot of stuff that I would ended up coming to the same conclusions on where did the road go except they didn't burst which also explains why Jeff and I hit it off so well

37:53 I don't know if you've ever had pierce a back on but he's one uh he's kind of a dark horse that people don't really talk about all that much but he refers to them the crafts as angelic sailors and i kinda like that it kind of goes back to the indigenous we don't care that much about the ones that take the bus but the idea that they're vehicles but they are metaphysical angel carriers. It's interesting, I mean no one else is saying angelic sailors so that stuck out to me. I also like Chris Knowles and the Lucifer's text stuff the idea that there isn't a cult context for all of this even crashes and stuff you can find like so much symbolism in mythology in it that you can't write it off as like an organic event where some

38:39 spaceship crashed it seems like a response to some kind of ritual that we weren't informed about i don't know a lot of the crashes i think are just disinfo in some way, shape or form. You said you talked to Nick Redfern a lot did you ever talk to him about his Roswell book? I'm sure i did it's probably been 10 years but yeah and he makes a fairly good case that Roswell was an experimental craft uh...and people probably died and that's what they were covering up that they were experimenting using people Not that a UFO crashed. What do you think about the concept that it was a homunculus in there because it was some kind of weird ritual response? I mean, and I can't rule it out because we don't know what actually happened. The point he makes though is that we brought in not only a lot of Nazi scientists but a lot of Japanese scientists who were doing these experiments on people

39:36 And they would use people who were disabled and stuff like that. And that's what he thinks was going on with these high altitude aircraft tests that they were doing, and one of them was the Roswell crash. And I also really early on had Douglas Dietrich on Oh God yeah, real character. Yes and I like Douglas like and the thing is it seems sometimes he's connecting dots that maybe don't connect but also a lot of his info you can kind of check in its there its out there you can find what he was talking about

40:12 And he said basically the same thing about Roswell, except he said it was Japanese prisoners of war in the craft that had crashed. Yeah totally possible one theme that comes up a lot is that these crafts fly over and disable our nuclear facilities now the only people who can say that are people who kind of have nuclear clearances or in that world. So we might already be kind of skeptical of what they have to say, but do you think that happens? I mean, I feel like I hear it from enough people to consider it a thing, but I don't know. It's one of those things is too close to the military to really fold into the phenomenon and then be sure about it. Yeah. I mean, I think there's at least one case that people are fairly certain

41:02 happened, and that was quite a while ago where it I think it turned on all the nukes. And I think maybe there was one in Russia where it turned off all the nukes? I can't remember off the top of my head but yeah I mean your point that anything coming from the government has to be questionable If the government wants, because the way I look at it is the government always lies. Like it doesn't matter what it is even if something happens in their favor they're still going to lie to make it more in their favor The government is just propaganda so for people looking for the truth of UFOs from the government They're never gonna get it because even if the government knows something They're not gonna tell you anything that isn't to their advantage agreed

41:41 And it's so refreshing to hear. I mean, obviously a veteran in the game but we have a new round of disclosure whistleblowers and a lot of times it does feel like they're telling us that they're just about to present the big reveal and then it's like some Tic Tac UFO video. It's like I saw stuff better than that years ago. And uh, the only thing that really gets me is that new guy who's all about the Enochian language on the board behind him. I get drawn into the stuff that has the occult flavor into it. The association of the Anakian language, I think his name is Matthew Brown. He after he gave his big revealing speech, she went on this Twitter rants to Elon Musk talking about how they know that AI has become sentient and then they've had it unplugged and killed and he's going to reveal that. And he added a attached image of

42:39 a Inocchian language with the name of an old grimoire on it. And I'm like, okay now I'm getting interested in what is this? I mean honestly to me it just sounds like he's just throwing stuff out there Yeah you gotta hear the interview because obviously you know there so much nuance and context to a person's tone and they way deliver information but let me ask about a little bit of UFO work World drama so you mentioned paratopia. I think they might have had something to do with this but for people who don't know dr David Jacobs, he's been a big name in this space and he was examining abductee cases and using hypnotic regression and trying to triangulate around an overall agenda which she said they had a hybrid program and they're already walking among us and i never interviewed him but

43:25 He was popular and also pretty convincing and methodical, but something happened with this Emma Woods person. I've heard you reference this drama, but I never really got full context for what seems to have been his downfall? The thing is it should have been his downfall, but he's still out there, you know, he still talks and stuff like that about this stuff. So Emma Woods was a woman in Australia that he was hit by he was hypnotically regressing her over the phone and at some point she started getting uneasy about what was going on. And so, he sent her all the tapes of the regression, so she has everything in one of them you know she's talking about thinking maybe one of these things raped or something and so he tells her to

44:13 when she gets off the phone with him to go pack up her underwear and send it to him, and then not remember she did it. And that was damning enough where it's like why would you do that? Like even if you thought okay there might be alien DNA here why would you not want her to remember this? Emma spoke for the first time on Paratopia uh and she came out with all this stuff and I don't know that David Jacobs was necessarily trying to do damage. I think he really believed a lot of what he was saying, but the hybrid thing... He thought hybrids were stalking him they were messaging from someone's IM account and threatening him and so he put a hypnotic suggestion into her mind that she was schizophrenic Wow! And to help protect him from the hybrids

45:07 And so, I mean the thing about hypnosis is hypnosis is not a reliable memory recovery tool. There's no evidence it can recover lost memories So this is not a way that should be used It usually just creates new memories It might also be an altered state of consciousness in which people may be interacting with something while they're thinking they're recovering memories But the most damning tape she had was one where she saying well there's this thing in the room with me and seems to be like a lizard-like creature And he's going, okay. Has it touched you? And she goes no it never touches me He's like let's assume it does Let's pretend it does He's like I'm gonna lead you a little here and now its laying on top of you You know he is basically inducing this memory of her having sex with this thing and the whole time she's going This didn't happen Yikes

46:00 So, and all of those tapes are available. It's not like hearsay you can go listen to them they aired a bunch of them on Paratopia and they had her on a couple times as well as other people who worked with Jacobs They did invite Jacobs on and he refused Well, yeah I can understand why. So that's interesting...I like these little sagas that pop up in this subculture and I just like to talk shop a little bit. I like the idea that we are being invaded—I don't like it but i'm intrigued by it let's say—and it doesn't have to be from aliens But the hybrid thing, once I started thinking about these beings as more spiritual. You can still understand the hybrid thing from a spiritual perspective that they're tinkering to try to invade our world in the physical when they are limited in some way

46:49 I also think that it's kind of interesting the AI perspective guys like Anthony Patch and some of the more, you know they're Christian folks but they look at the tech as almost like this seeding of the weapons infrastructure in which these things can invade. So if you say hey we tried to mess with human DNA for a few centuries it didn't work well maybe we can put the idea on people's heads to build a technology that will let us get further into their world And you gotta admit, I mean there's a lot of comments from the people in the AI creation space where they say things like summoning the demon and worshipping at the altar of an alien god. Gordy Rhodes and Elon Musk have said that. And then it's also interesting that Jacques Vallée

47:37 Yeah, he's such a big figure in our space. But his real gig is cybernetics and being there at the early internet and networking. I mean that's where he really made his money and that's where you know his friends Hal Puthoff and this whole little Invisible College group they're very embedded in like the early internet and somewhat psychology and cybernetics and the overlaps there. And Anthony Patch would say that they had this plan 50 years ago to bring the alien demons into our world through AI what do you think? I don't think there are alien demons necessarily. I, I think there are stuff that I think whatever we're dealing with exists alongside us. I think it's always been here. Uh, there may be like, I don't, I don't like the word demon because it's such a loaded word. Um, I don't think this stuff necessarily means as harm but also you know, like

48:27 I look at it like, you know we look at cats and were like oh they're so cute and adorable. Well not to a mouse! To a mouse they are a demon. You know? So some of the stuff may be harmful to us but... The majority of paranormal cases and interactions The most harmful thing they do is scare people When people get over their fear the experience changes which makes me feel that It's giving back what it's getting Its using our energy to create and if what the energy we're putting out its fear it's responding to that because that's what i have to respond with yeah absolutely agree a.i i mean it might eventually get to the point where something could inhabit there was a great story on i think everlasting story podcast

49:14 and it's about a singular AI that invented that is powerful enough that someone incarnate into it, and like he was a former human he incarnates into this and you can remember all his past lives because she's not in the biological brain. He's in this electronic brain that doesn't degrade. And it was just a fascinating concept because I mean, that-I think that's kind of how consciousness works You get something organized enough and consciousness can appear in it But I don't know that like... I don't know. I don't- Jacques has always felt this is a control system of some sorts He's always had that negative sort of thing to it. John Keel too, I mean he thought these... claimed he was a demonologist basically and he didn't think these things were good. He thought they were harmful to us but i think its perspective. I think it really is perspective and when it comes down to this stuff trying to wake us up to a bigger reality. I don't think we can perceive it directly

50:11 I think that when we encounter it, our brain has to come up with some kind of cover for it so we can interpret in something we understand. Which is why it was fairies and now its aliens which is the thing Jacques found but every single one of these experiences that we have today goes back as far as written history is undoubtedly beyond but we can prove at least it goes back to the beginning of written history and it goes cross culture there's no cultures that don't have these experiences but they all name it different things so that light in the sky 21 culture is a witch to another it's a fairy to another it's ufo

50:55 You know, there's no we don't. We probably not none of us are probably seeing what it actually is I don't know if that a question or not but Well you're here to solve all the mysteries Soraya so i don't know I'm a little disappointed that you can't just solve everything Let me ask you this guests that you think are your best? Or ones that you were You felt lucky to have them on the record, on your show. Do any names stick out? Well as I said George Hanson and Patrick Harper but also Robert Schock came on very early on and i respect the hell out of Robert. I had John Anthony West on actually got invited to John Anthony West's house to do the interview

51:43 Which was an amazing experience. Man, I've had so many people on and I've met people who are... So many people have become friends with in this field like Tim Renner and Joshua Kutchin that you mentioned earlier That it's just, you know. There aren't a lot of guests I've haven't liked there's only been a handful where I was like, wow that didn't go well. I would say the same. I mean my big ones people know are John Irving and Steven Greer The second time I interviewed Steven Greer we got into it a little bit really over the ETH stuff or

52:20 Well, no. I don't want to drag you into the conspiratorial mud but this was right when COVID happened and he comes right out of the gate saying i know exactly what's going on with COVID and these vaccines in this big conspiracy but if i said anything your show would be ripped off the air and you'd never be able to talk in a microphone again and i said go ahead Go ahead. Cause I think you're full of shit and because he has the history as a doctor, you know, he thought he was like kind of, he was being a little condescending about like what he knew and he's got the inside information plus the medical degree context. That's like well then just say it

52:58 and you know that it devolved from there let's just say yeah when it comes to people i've wanted to have on and could never, never net could never add my collection i put david hatcher children is pretty high on the list he was someone i reached out too early on and like his. company, the book company out there which I'm forgetting the name of. It's Unlimited Press i believe something like that yeah and then they said we'll pass it on to him but just so you know he doesn't do a lot of interviews well I got the message loud and clear I mean, they were very nice about it. And i was going to ask you about some people...I might also put Robert Temple up there especially since plasma is so trendy right now and not only does he have the serious mystery but he has this new plasma book yeah and i've interviewed like three people who have written books and they talk about the robert temple plasma book in their books so i get to fold it in a little bit but

53:58 I haven't been able to crack that egg either, but I imagine you're a bit of a fan? Of Temple. I've never actually read Temple stuff. I'm familiar with his stuff. But the first person I dealt with talking about plasma was Andrew Collins. Yes! He wrote... because he- That was his theory early on. think his theory quite explains everything but it definitely has merit the plasma thing definitely has merit uh the part where i disagreed with andrew is that was creating kind of a bubble universe that we interacted within i mean i'm not saying it's not possible

54:34 I just don't know if that's really what's going on. But the idea that these things are somehow intelligent plasma, I really liked Greg Little was another one i loved having on and uh man there's a parapsychologist whose name is completely escaping me at the moment that I loved having on too but I'm not going to remember it because they need it. But little also has done a lot of work on the plasma hypothesis as well. Yeah, another Greg that I've tried to get...I think he doesn't like me for some reason but Greg Bishop! I know he has this book Project Beta about the Benowitz affair and he also has uh..I think it used to be a zine of some kind called The Excluded Middle which is very close

55:17 very close to damned facts from Charles Fort so I've always, like Greg Bishop's work. You've had him on a couple of times. I've had him on a ton of times yeah He likes you more than he likes me I was really nervous talking to Greg the first time. Like, I don't generally get nervous with guests but i was kind of intimidated by Greg turns out I didn't understand me but I just...I don't know he's like his wealth of experience and knowledge was just kind of like oh man I'm mildly intimidated. Him and Hanson were the two people that intimidated me bringing them on the show Patrick Harper is one of those guys that i was a little nervous, so I'm just like you are so smart You're too smart! I don't know what to do with ya And so nice and humble But...I know it's a dangerous combination for me I think It's like

56:07 I just can't deal with it. Yeah, Project Beta is very interesting because it definitely...I mean anyone who's interested in the disclosure stuff should read Project Beta they should also read Valet's Messengers of Deception because there's a lot there to be understood because the disclosure things really just carried on a stick It has been for decades. You get people who come into this stuff new and they're like, oh this disclosure thing seems legit and it's like... I'm sure it does, but look at your history. Right? And on that subject, I am curious about if you know anything related to this photo I saw recently... But it's a photo from Lawrence Rockefeller's ranch in the mountains and it's like a weekend retreat and so it's a picture of all the people meeting at the weekend retreat and there are a lot of major figures of ufology

57:07 Robert Bigelow is in that photo with Linda Moulton Howell, with Dr. Steven Greer and a lot of other people too and I just look at that photo and I think about the influence that the people in the photo ended up having as we've come down the road because this photo was from the nineties so it's like pretty early internet Stephen Greer was not the name he is today. Linda Molten Howell had not done as much work As she did then. And Robert Bigelow definitely wasn't the name he became, right? And I look at that photo and I'm like, what were you guys talking about UFOs? Well, yeah, I mean, I can put that together, but I'm just wondering if how much a conversation there was about like, how do we present this to the subculture or how do we create narratives around this? Like, I guess I'm wondering, I wonder how much of it was like calculated versus how much of it was just actually

58:02 being curious about the phenomenon. Like, okay so the three names you just mentioned like Linda I think is very genuine i think she was compromised when she was shown stuff from the military talking about basically the whole Sitchin sort of narrative So everything she looks at now is biased by that She also seems to be a little bit gullible when she does reports, but I don't doubt her sincerity. Greer, I think honestly is kind of a used car salesman he has a narrative he's trying to sell He very clearly makes money with it and i don't think he's really after any kind of truth he may believe he already has the answers and I don't know if that's even genuine

58:47 but not a trustable figure. And Bigelow, I think is genuine in what he's doing but he doesn't really care about sharing that data with us like it's sort of selfish thing for him. I think that's a fair assessment. I hate to completely discount people just because they have money and say they have bad intentions just based on that Well with Bigelow its... That he has never released any the Skinwalker Ranch stuff Uh, he basically bought all the bouffant files and privatized them. So he's not sharing this stuff like if he was genuinely interested in wanted you know one of this stuff out there, he'd be sharing it. He wouldn't just be holding it to himself. I don't think he's making money from it. I think he has a genuine interest. He just isn't interested in sharing. And it's curious what the reason would be for that since there are so many people that want to get at the answers that he might have

59:42 I can't logic out a real good reason for that. Yeah, I don't know he's kind of a mystery honestly Well the only logical conclusion is he's a secret occultist and they're trying to cover their tracks for all the occult activity that is bringing the demons into our world but besides that I don't know what it could be And there could be some of that going on because if you believe that Yeah. You know, I mean that might be something they're trying to do well. I really only have two more questions for you regarding a guest and I'll let you get out of here but one would be

1:00:19 When you look at your archive, you know there's major themes that you've touched on and sometimes it's just like okay we're doing this again. I know we don't get burned out necessarily but it is a job everything's a job yeah uh sometimes it feels like that more times than others but are there things in your archive where you look back and you're like man that was a weird one? I don't know how I got that interview I don't know why we chose to cover that let me...I'll go first just to give you a second to think When I go back to my early archive, one that's weird and it still on like the top most watched YouTube videos in my archive is Richard Bandler. The guy who was all about NLP and

1:00:58 This was because I was hanging out with Adam go rightly. And I was like, who should I get? And he threw out Richard Bandler. I asked and Richard Bandler said yes. And Adam was like, Holy shit. Like that's strange. So I had to quickly learn about NLP but if you go back and listen to that one, I mean, he's dropping some gems if you think there's any value to neuro-linguistic programming. I didn't find out until afterwards that he has a weird sketchy thing about a secretary who died that uh, You know it might be something to dig into. I would imagine he might not even be around anymore, but that's one I would say for me is like Richard Bandler doesn't really fit in my archive but he is there what about you? Oh man! I don't know because I mean I have a pretty wide scope of people...I don't think there's anyone..I mean there's okay so when I started A.) I didn't think anyone was going to care because I didn't want to do the coast-to-coast thing

1:01:57 dumb it down because I'd listen to those shows. I'm like, why aren't you asking about this? Why aren't you asking about this? You know, it would drive me crazy so I think I just got lucky because some of my first guests were David Weatherly and Robert Schock Patrick Harper and stuff like that where these were big names that I did not expect to come on the show And they were like, sure we'll do that. And I was like really? Oh cool you know so i think it's harder if you're starting now because these people are so overwhelmed You know there's so many podcasts out there and everyone wants them on and they just don't care because they don't necessarily need it from every podcast um...I was thrilled to get David Paulides on I thought he would say no The first time he responded he sent me a very weird message

1:02:49 So I asked him if he'd come on and told him about the show, and he said uh...I don't go on any show where the host hasn't read my books. How would you know if I've read your books or not? You know? And then he followed with If you don't have them, I'll send them to ya! And I'm like oh okay, you could have worded that better, you know?! Yeah, yeah. I agree he, there's just something about our interactions where I was like, I don't think you like me but we're doing it. We're getting it done moving along. We got along great. We really did. It was just like I said the Steph Young stuff kind of popped up and um, You know, I was personal friends with Steph and I knew she was not doing what he said she was doing and he didn't like that now is she? Is she even active anymore somewhat uh, She has

1:03:33 released two books on near-death experiences and stuff, and another one on weird UFO stories in the last couple of years. And she does her own podcast which has some long name that I don't remember the name of Fair enough. Yes, it's just like everybody just starts their own show instead of going on our shows anymore. Well yeah so easy! Yes and I was gonna ask you the white whale question i mean i said david hatcher childress and i don't...i might say Jacques Vallée but honestly when i hear Vallée interviews i'm just like you play dumb you act like you don't know anything but yet we all read your books in the damn 80s

1:04:17 Maybe I'd like to get Hal put off one of these guys who I could hold their feet to the fire. A Gary Nolan, he seems quite interesting. There's a few of them, but what do you think? Are there any people that if you're let's say okay, I'm your new producer, You say, I said, I can get you anybody. You know, i'm connected as all hell and who do you need? Who do you need? I'll get them here for you tomorrow. Who did you ask me to go get well? Um, I got offered valet when Trinity came out And I didn't want to talk to him about Trinity. I was very disappointed in the fact that he even did that book, although I think he might have had ulterior motives in doing that. I still was like why? Of all of this amazing stuff you've done and this is when I get offered to talk to you so I didn't have him on. Some of these people like Whitley Strieber...I like Strieber's stuff but also Striever is everywhere. I like talking with people who aren't everywhere

1:05:18 Agreed. I think that's another commonality with us is we like to go more obscure. Yeah, because I mean you can tell like Graham Hancock. Graham told me he'd come on the show. I never contacted him about it because Graham is everywhere! You know? Like Graham doesn't need to come on Where Did The Road Go?. It would be cool to talk to him some more cause I was on a show with them but... He has never been on my show but again he's everywhere so The person, the white whale for me is Jenny Randall's. I think you know what? Oh my God. Sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off, but I got a message from her today. Yeah. Uh, I actually asked Jenny Randalls maybe, uh, maybe a few days ago to come on and she wrote me back and she said thank you for the offer, but at my age and the way the world is right now, I don't do public appearances anymore. I wish the world would go back to how it was yesterday

1:06:13 Wow. And I'm like, okay well you clearly have the Trump derangement thing going on i guess but we can not mention Trump for two hours! I promise just do the damn interview um but that's interesting you say that what a coincidence because I think she has written some of the most some of the best stuff on UFO phenomena and she's very unafraid to go out there and throw ideas around. You know, she wrote a book called Time Storms talking about how some UFO encounters might be actual time displacement events. The best one I think she did was Mind Monsters which is talking about how this stuff can be generated by us so she's been ahead of the curve forever. Hell yeah you know i want Kanye

1:07:00 I don't know if he knows anything about UFOs, but I want to know about that Harley Pasternak trainer guy. I want to know about why he said that thing about the his agents or whatever you woke up and there were kids in his house that weren't his and just it seems like he is crazy, but it also seems like they fucked with them a whole lot. And I want to go down that rabbit hole. I want to talk to Dave Chappelle about what the hell happened too. And Amanda Bynes, that's what I think. I want is I want to go to the people who have lost their mind in Hollywood and be like you know, you're talking to a friend right now. You can be honest. I'm not going to mock you. I know these people are psychopathic uh, money hungry exploitive parasites so just tell me what happened? How did they drive your nuts? Right, right

1:07:49 Yeah, I mean look at the UFO field. You have a perfect example of that with Benowitz you know Benowitz was literally driven insane by disinfo and it's admitted to Dodi came out and said yeah we did that! Yeah i think Dodi was uh... maybe i'm mixing things up but i think he was the one that i heard was assigned Linda Moulton Howell Did she get a lot of her material from Dodi? Dicey dicey. And he's still out there in the disinfo movement, you know? I mean it's all the same people. It's all the same people from Aviary back in the 90s

1:08:27 The aviary is the magic word. Yeah, and this is why people need to know their history about it indeed indeed you know there's so many podcasts out there but you know we're a couple of old heads now I didn't even know if I'd ever make it this far in the whole thing oh yeah again when I started I did not expect my show to last I didn't think people would want a deeper sort of dive into all this stuff and I've been doing it now for 13 years and I've never missed a week. Never missed a week, okay well i think i put out five shows a month every month since i started the plus system which is you know many many about about a decade now but i think i might have only had four shows the month my first kid was born so that isn't very good excuse i guess i guess but hey that's when the money's got to come in you can't you can't shuck your responsibilities at that point

1:09:22 Soraya, this has been a lot of fun. Honestly I was just looking at my available options and thinking about what i could do and we are in very heavy times and neither one of us like to be too political. I like to do conspiracy stuff but try not make it political because its hard But it's just like, our times are very heavy. I've done a lot of heavy interviews. I was like what could I do that would just be fun? And I thought why don't I get the where did the road go guy because I have listened to probably 100 episodes of his show and we can probably joke around and have a less stressful conversation than some of the other ones I've been having. And we can talk a little shop, and I think this was fun! It was fun. I enjoyed it. Thank you for inviting me on. Hell yeah man so tell people where to best find your show? I know it came from The Radio World. It's now a podcast. It's now on YouTube but any other things you got going on things they should know if they want to dive into what you've done If you go to wheredidtheroadgo.com that...I mean that's everything for the show there's

1:10:25 There's also a link tree there that will take you to my music show, The Last Exit for the Lost which is just thelastexit.org which is underground kind of like Where'd the Road Go? I look for stuff that's not everywhere it's an underground heavy music show but also do like photography and other stuff all that stuff is on the link tree that's on wheredidtheroadgo.com Hell yeah well I very much appreciate you! I've been a fan for a long time It's great to finally meet. Keep up the good work and take care Same And boom goes the dynamite people, a legend in the paranormal radio slash podcasting space. The great Messiah Saria of the infamous Where'd the Road Go? Clearly very casual interview largely about the paranormal space and the people in it kind of like a coworker water cooler talk I guess for this weird job but was nice to make his acquaintance. I am probably

1:11:24 projecting when I say this or building it up in my head, but i do have a few reasons to believe that there's a contingency within the paranormal researchers community that have kind of developed a perception of me that i'm like I don't know, the Rogan bro of this space. A perception that i've been told did develop about me during COVID and might even go back to some Q type stuff but look-I just thought the meme magic was interesting and Jordan Saythers pretty good a compelling speaker with angles you don't expect but two interviews should not a perception and reputation make

1:12:11 But all that is just to say that I hope some of those people soften on me after this because I objectively enjoy their work and for whatever reason, some have decided THC isn't a friendly or serious place. And I do hope that this choice of guest might make a few researchers out there think twice about that perception of me, or at least. I hope it has some added downstream benefit of me being able to make other choices for who I want to talk about when it comes to this pillar of the show and kudos to Saraya for just taking me up on the offer

1:12:49 Uh, anyway right out of the gate. We did kind of start awkwardly because I didn't expect to hear that David Politis had kinda fallen out of favor with him in that sort of way. I didn't really like hearing that he might have gotten caught manipulating a few cases. That is a massive claim and I haven't investigated it yet so until I really get into the details I'm gonna reserve judgment and just kinda play devil's advocate and say that like his books are six or 700 pages long, and it is just case after case. So he's got what? Six books in all with at least like a hundred cases in each book so if he altered two or three of them to get more attention I don't like it but it doesn't really blow up the entire body of work you hear the cope already I know and then his defense too

1:13:43 As Soraya said, he wanted every podcast host to read the book and he would ask me to pick out five or six cases to cover in the show. So that kind of seems genuine unless you already know that I'm going to pick the wildest cases because you seeded those as bait who knows what kind of 40 chess a man is playing but Still, I think that kind of speaks to the credibility of the whole thing. That the host can pick any cases let him know he'll study up on them and we'll talk about them anyway if you look at David Politis's social media now it is just a cascade

1:14:23 of let's just say typical cop issues. And yes, I'm stereotyping a bit. I have cop friends. I love them but just for the sake of argument if you were to imagine what a boomer cops news feed might be in 2025 what would you expect? An element of Trump appreciation probably Something something election interference in 2020, probably a mention of Obama or Biden or even Hillary every 10 tweets or so. Surprise surprise it's all there with his name sandwiched between bald eagle and American flag emojis and I'm not even making judgment on the statements about the issues that I just listed except to say that you gotta stop feeding all your energy to the news cycle and the political circus right?

1:15:15 To me it's just a sign that you need to realign your priorities, get more going on in your actual personal life or deal with whatever it is you're distracting yourself from and just be less typical I guess. The American flag and bald eagle emojis yeah we get it you love the country but your David fucking Politis of missing 411! A paranormal subgenre all its own celebrate that I'm just joking around and talking about David Polaitis way too much. I'll stop, but we did talk a lot of shop today. I wish we could have gotten a bit deeper or that we didn't have to return to the same five names or so but what are you going to do? The best guys are the best guys and Soraya and I just have good taste."

1:16:03 But I thought about that and did come to the table with a few outside-of-the box conversation openers in an effort to avoid that situation, but it didn't help all that much. Either way...it was good for me. I hope it was good for you! Some paranormal research community tea was spilled some drama was dissected yes but also had my back pocket that I knew that Soraya had some actual magical experience Some conscious and directed, some undirected and spontaneous. And that was good too because we really haven't spent a lot of time on that realm lately either Dr. Stephen Skinner won't get back to me And I don't know any magical scholars at that level That could really take us deep without getting into boilerplate political or social commentary That we don't need

1:16:53 So the first hour of this was plenty good. And in the second hour, we got more into his magical anecdotes and experiences are mutual love for the electric universe model. The telepathy tapes real or not so real spontaneous human combustion, the Seth material which he's big on crop circles, cattle mutilations all the one-on-one subjects of paranormal and especially the ones that are out of vogue what happened? Do we not still need to answer that question about the cattle mutilations? I actually received a very interesting email recently. I'm undecided on if we're going to do a show, it might turn into a podcast so maybe I shouldn't say anything but he came up with some information, some pattern recognition with cattle mutilation situations and it's compelling! I'm not gonna get into it. I don't want to give the game away

1:17:54 But anyway, we also talked about researchers that are no longer with us. Dream guests missed opportunities a lot of just fun lo-fi low stress good times something I needed Maybe you too. Sign up for plus if you appreciate an ad free show and want twice as much of it, and in higher side news I am very happy to report an overwhelming love of the last show with Dr Alexis Cowan! I agree it was a good one and she knows the data well and right now it is sitting at a 4.9

1:18:32 With a good amount of reviews and ratings, you know one bad one isn't gonna disrupt what we got going here because there's so many there that it doesn't have a huge impact. But regardless 4.9? You almost never see it! And there were a few complaints that the information was too dense but you can pause at any time my job is to fill two hours with compelling and useful or at least interesting material and not waste a bunch of time on like pleasantries or comparing our geographical areas in the weather. Happens a lot on podcasts, but you can pause the show I can't fit more into it afterwards so i try to maximize where i can and then you have to individually calibrate if that's some kind of problem for you but clearly not a problem for many because a 4.9 is about as good as it gets You'll love to see it And the meetup calendar tradition let's do it

1:19:31 right around the corner Saturday August 16th Wayne Wright Alberta Canada at Wallace Park and then the next day August 17th Sour Duck Market in Austin Texas August 22nd North Kansas City Missouri at The Rewind Video & Dive Bar August 27th we have Black Rock City Nevada And let's go even into September. We got a couple Dayton, Ohio it's coming up the canal street arcade and deli September 10th and then September 15th we're going back to Gail breaths ale house in Auckland New Zealand you'll love to see it. It's a fun low pressure infrastructure to meet like-minded locals and have a good hang take the THC mindset into conversations about your shared environment

1:20:24 and support a local business at the same time. It's a beautiful thing, take advantage." And that's really about it. I needed a break from the heaviness of our times and this was a lot of fun for me. I really want to get back into doing paranormal and magic centric shows but it's hard you know? The news cycle has gravity to it these days as we all know and we wanna know what is going on in the world but we have to improve our world, which a lot of time involves turning off the TV and just inner work. So that is about it I was going to say I did write a new song for this one okay so i didn't really have a paranormal song to go to in episodes like this and I think you know that there is a theme to the songs I try to make for the shows that they end up with And I don't even know the right language Make a song? Write a song

1:21:26 Not sure with these AI songs. I mean, I write the words but that's only 40% of what makes up a song maybe I should say I produce them is produced the right word Rick Rubin he says he doesn't even know how to play an instrument or know anything about music theory and he's one of the most well respected music producers there are. I think that his game is that and all producers really it's just you have the artists play versions of a song until they get it right and you just go on vibes and intuition so sure maybe I produce these songs, i guess. Well either way...I didn't have one to lean on

1:22:05 with themes that are just so classic paranormal like today's. So I made a new one and it's not in the vibe of The Guest, I hope that shows through too we don't talk about the music a whole lot but the intro songs i try to make...I'm usually guessing but I'm trying to invoke a genre or a vibe that fits with The Guests It's not just randomized But I know Soraya is big on metal. I used these lyrics with metal, and couldn't get it to work. Personally, I think I like country more than metal and really don't like country either way. I made this one kind of about the people who dismiss the paranormal and magical and energetic material without ever even trying to engage with it

1:22:55 It's always right there waiting for you to dive in. I guess that's the moral of this story, the world is so much more interesting than the political layer life is what you make it You have so much more freedom than you realize your only limited by your creativity because we're trained to feel small and maybe that's the biggest conspiracy of all Alright, the funny thing is that if I had any musical talent these would be the kind of songs I would make. Basic piano chords and a scratchy strained punk emo voice from the early 2000s? Mmm! And the reason it's funny it because its not that hard to do It's pretty low hanging fruit talent wise but even that is too much for me personally so let me live vicariously through the computers like kids these days

1:23:47 Let's just wrap it up. Thank you, Soraya. Thank you listener for listening I'm gonna get out of here your move Kundalini suppressors materialist professors and paranormal reality debunking obsessors Your fucking moon. I see your face in traffic And you look so stuck no sense of adventure Just a routine fuck They can diagnose depression But don't know why your mystery comes knocking, but you don't answer the door No there are lights in the sky Not found on any map Creatures deep in the forest

1:24:46 That no ranger has tagged There are things in the ocean You won't see from the land Life's under no obligation To make sure you understand I'm told the truth is out there When you get past the lies It comes when you least expect it And it wears a disguise. It'll tell you everything, just for proof Can't take any pictures Won't have any proof So I watch ya live Like you never won A lost soul that's forgotten

1:25:48 What really haunted it? You didn't ask, but just let me say This is a horrible approach to seizing the day There are things you can know That you can't even think No doctor has medicine Like the shaman's next drink Sleep is never bad Inside of the dream Who promised you anything Would be as it seems I'm told that truth is out there

1:26:40 When you get past the lies, it comes when you least expect it. And it wears a disguise It'll tell you everything just for a goof Can't take any pictures to prove