Phil Demers | Smooshi The Walrus, Marine Parks, & Animal Intelligence

00:00 Embrace yourself, because you're about to dive into another free first hour episode of the Higher Side Chats. And we just want to let you know that whether your looking for a companion through your paranoid insomnia, entertaining yourself through one of life's mundane activities or trying to ward off the internal screams from all those sad smothered souls around the office THC is here and you should know that every episode of the higher side chats has an entire second hour for plus members Sign up at thehiresitechatsplus.com and you'll get years of Plus Show archives, lifetime forum access, a special invite to Greg Carlwood's monthly joint sessions MP3s of THC music bonus episodes tour videos and 10% off t-shirts grinders and whatever else ends up in The HireSite Store It's $8 a month that you won't miss so become a plus member and treat yourself in these troubled times always action packed and commercial free

00:51 Which means you'll unfortunately never hear my voice again. 1930s President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed the nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the fireside chats His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times From 1930 and I deal with a different kind of fire For a new era of worldly frustration we offer a fresh conversation, I'm Greg Carlwood

01:27 These are the Hireside Chats. Here we go, Hireside Chatters! From sunny San Diego I'm Greg Carlwood and as often as we focus on the scams and schemes of the Capstone Cabal in a multitude ways that system makes us sicker dumber and drowning in debt We sometimes forget that is bad it for us It's just much worse for the animal kingdom Not only have our ever-expanding ways and forever growing corporations destroyed their natural habitats and resources, but in our everything is money world we put a price on these creatures and consider them commodities not much different from a couch or toaster. It's this mental trick that makes things like factory farming cement zoo prisons in the sad things that go on behind the curtain of circuses and amusement parks seem more acceptable than they really are

02:15 As Howard Beale would say, first I need you to get mad. And here to piss us off and take such an uncomfortable journey is Phil Demers a ex-Marineland animal trainer turned whistleblower from Canada who could no longer take what he was seeing at the old 9-5 and started speaking out against the sad state of their animal care His highest priority being a particular walrus that he imprinted on named Smooshie, that he has been trying to rescue from Marineland's custody for over six years. You can donate to his cause and help him fight the ongoing legal battle that Marineland has waged to silence him by going to savesmooshie dot com So let's do the damn thing! The animal welfare whistleblower, The Kanye West of Animal Trainers and the Walrus Whisperer himself Phil welcome to the higher side

03:02 Thanks for having me greg and i'm impressed you pronounce my name perfectly smooshes as well. I try to look into these things you gotta get it right there's very few things the host must do that seems like near the top of the list are you now that i appreciate your professionalism yes i tried i mean its tough for a stoner but we get done, And this is really cool i think you're a great example of a guy with principles who's doing the whole david verse corporate goliath thing and i know it can consume your life that's not an easy thing to do. But if we were to start at the beginning of the story for people who are unfamiliar you were a punk kid with no direction much like me but instead of working out some shitty mall store use on ad for animal trainers assistant applied and thats how it all got started right,

03:48 I couldn't even believe it myself that i got the job but i literally was spinning in a circle like what am i gonna do i could keep my attention on things you know i worked in forging industries where is the production line making automotive parts two thousand a day. That countdown drove me crazy. I was 18 years old and ready to jump off a bridge, it was too much so I thought I got to get out of here and do something else It took some schooling to learn audio post-production with regards to music and whatnot And then I thought that's cool maybe we can follow some bands around, play instruments But then the ad came up, applied for the job Marine Mammal Trainer Assistant I though okay, feed fish for people who swim with whales

04:31 I was wrong. I got the job and within a month, you know, it's on the front lines feeding swimming and training whales is crazy. Yeah it's almost like the lack of training and expertise itself needed for the job is kind of telling. It was exactly what they were looking for like a dummy who will operate as a parrot and tow the company line and doesn't look too bad in a wetsuit. And how long How long we work in there before the things you saw started making you uncomfortable what were some of the things you are actually seeing behind the curtain. Okay well day one was very uncomfortable so it should be noted when your going in their sort of green, when your introduced to the whole of its pretty appalling something u turn off fairly quickly because

05:15 You look your new environment you're not the professional you here to learn that people don't know what they're doing seem to be fine with what's going on her how this is done so it's time for you to learn. So i would say was uncomfortable things from day one became eventually numb two things and then eventually down the road i will find myself in a guest i guess we call desperate position where Everything changes it's sometimes very difficult when you're stuck in your ways to stop everything and try to change your perspective kind of look from the outside. I was in a pretty tight nasty bubble but what is the even only briefly disconnect myself and look at what the whole of things work,

05:56 You know i just started to change and when she starts seeing things for what they truly are you can't get it can't unsee them. I'm sure you fall right into that classic just following orders mind game as your kind of sand. And i was a company guy i'm hard worker on dependable i mean look at myself in the back here but yeah hire me i am a good employee, no they had me how's company got do anything for the park and then all i want to do is just try to get ahead yes he's on the market people man so terms of some the things you are seeing i've heard you talk about the training of animals of course when u put it in the terms that these animals have to do tricks to live or have to do tricks to eat, those terms sound quite harsh but is true i mean you can't get animals to do things without some motivation usually its food and animals that are full don't necessarily wanna jump through hoops right.

06:49 nor do animals that are free, so you also have to take them from their natural environment separate them from their families traumatize them, depress them drug them and then isolate them in concrete pools. You know these are auditory sensitive animals I mean they rely on their hearing in ways that we can't even understand They have a very complex system where they use echolocation and radar systems this stuff becomes quite useless in a concrete tank And also the sounds, the filtration system, the loud music to people clapping. All of this is it just depresses their system It's a form of torture though The animals that you see performing and not only starve for food They're also depressed as hell and they're stuck there Basically if they're jumping it's because they still want to live

07:34 Man yes i get sad just when i go to petco for pet food and i see like chameleons in a small ten gallon tank because it's so unnatural and. Dogs and cats mean they like humans company and they know what's going on there are little companions but some of the things you'll see no pets or it's like this is just different than you can immediately tell him when it comes to giant whales and orchids its just, Amplified that much there was a little factoid i pulled off of the imdb for black fish where it just says that in the case of that whale during his time at sea world he was housed in a tank containing one million of the quantity of water you would traverse in a single day and the ocean i mean thats pretty insane.

08:24 And he you know that's sad thing is he's not the only whale that's found themselves in incredibly and i'm talking lowest standard of the worst of the worst. Of pools i know one orca the marine land had named junior that lived backstage and he never saw the light of day, add heat quite literally rotted ice and if anybody has the stomach for it. Look up on YouTube of course, look up Junior the Orca at Marineland I don't know exactly what the search is but you'll find out. The story of Junior the orca and he rotted away in a warehouse never to see the light of day because he was deemed a surplus whale there was no market for him because at that time there weren't a lot of aquariums they're popping up like crazy now in China especially but at that time there were very few sea worlds at Marineland say and then maybe a couple places in Europe

09:13 So there was a legit surplus of whale. So there were times when whales were quite literally warehouse out-of-sight, out-of-mind and rotted away. It's tragic. Yeah it really is and that's another thing is when it comes to the lineage of these animals separation from family I mean we don't really know the dynamics or I'm sure there are experts out there who do but there are family dynamics two animals and the things they do in these parks are capture of these animals It violates a lot of that stuff that we just kinda gloss over because all these are just meet robots they don't have consciousness and it's just so untrue but what can you say about things like separation from family or even as nasty is incest that has to be an element of this kind of thing right.

09:59 All of which I can tell you examples of which that i personally have experience with it should be noted that male orcas in the wild will. Spend ninety percent their life within a body length of their mothers i mean to separate animals we can't even begin to understand the magnitude of torture that causes for both mother and especially babies i've seen it was there when we received wild caught animals And many of them don't make it beyond a very few weeks into months even. Then when you get into years, you've got more dying and then there's a reason why the environment that these animals live in aren't so great It's because there was a time where rather than taking proper care of the animal or the whales in this case because it would be very costly to make very large elaborate pools that would accommodate them, it was just cheaper to replace them So let em die

10:54 these facilities are still so stuck in that arcade mindset i mean look these are infrastructures that were expensive to build them expensive to build today even by the crappy standards of the harbor marine land pools existed now for nearly fifty years, no sea world as well so it is a really really really not just archaic ideas but the way they were doing it is even so okay can i and i would never I mean look there's not gonna be a perfect form of captivity it's virtually impossible and i'm not gonna make any excuse for because the second that money to be made for the second that the animals lives are compromised just in the capacity that i've seen it is just not worth it. I'll never be so sympathetic to captivity but they do gotta catch up

11:32 in some capacity. They need to address some of the living conditions that these animals are in, the only resolve that SeaWorlds and MarineLens have adopted is to say oh you know we don't do those performances as much or whatsoever now we just do natural demonstrations There's still performances that they've changed nothing. You'd never see a commitment to improve the actual Environment these animals live in you just don't see it That's not where the industry's minds ever go It's always profits first when it comes on the backs of these incredibly intelligent animals and the toll is too much What you make some good points and that's always a frustration for me in the wide range of subjects we cover is people will write me and say well how do we do this better and i'm like something she just can't do something you shouldn't do, add maybe keeping whales and marine mammals in captivity it's just something we can't do the infrastructure will never.

12:25 allow for the quality of life that these animals need you just nailed it will never is just as simple as that so the future is a buffer. So what's actually being adopted now with being disgusting and being slowly implemented but it is the future is it a seaside sanctuary so what's gonna happen if your going to have a fiord or a coastline sounds like its going to be in the east or west coast of north america so let's call canada and shared perhaps with us You can take these animals out of their captive environments, put them in a massive fenced-in environment so they're still captive. They're still under human care but they are in the sea and they are feeling the rhythm – the natural rhythms of the sea and they are interacting with fish be it hunting them if they can. They are interacting with wildlife. The water is constantly changing there under the sun and stars. Bear in mind that a lot of these animals in captivity once they are in this pool, they are under actual artificial lighting

13:20 24-7 for the remainder of their lives. Can you imagine an animal that would otherwise be sleeping under the dead of midnight in the sea, the dead quiet of midnight? Something you and I don't even know we can't even understand what that's like and these animals will never experience that again. I think it's just an absolute tragedy We do not think about these little things but imagine being under lights 24-7 It's a problem with the mindset that we are separate from our environment none of us are everything is interconnected people in asia having. Success with forest bathing when they're sick just going out into the woods because, we are kind of captive through the debt slavery system i mean a lot of people don't see sunlight during the nine to five sad as it is and on weekends there too tired to even deal with that but

14:11 The sunlight the air we breathe the whole environment it's a holistic system and when you, shelter someone when u quarantine them away from that animal or human there's problems. I'm a new nail that you start introducing drugs and start introducing the starvation methods the language that trainers use now is called positive reinforcement and the way that they were rationalize their training system is. We ignore the things we don't want the animals to do it all punish which merely ignore okay determine ignore and then when the animal doing something that would be impossible then we reinforce it with me food which means you feed them

14:48 So when they say something to the effect of what we don't punish, we just ignore bad behavior. Well by virtue ignoring it means you are not giving them food until they give you something positive. You know what's positive? When an animal is swimming away from you and your not giving it food your just ignoring coming back when it's hungry and then you feed it again. You say, you see how this works? And then you go from there but trainers today will try to tell you oh we just conditioned the animals through positive reinforcement no no no they introduce the animal to the flip side of that which is starvation! It's simple...the animals are there surviving Tricks and language we see in so many different areas and we can't go much farther without talking about smoochie tell us about this walrus and how you form the bond with it i just like to know that its anomalous relationship this is not something u a can create can make happen can manufacture officially scientific anomaly what happened was, young age smooshy was captured in russia she's brought to marine land.

15:48 During a procedure where we were trying to draw blood from another animal, another walrus. It was you know it was a frantic scene she got very nervous she is especially protective animal but walruses in general are protective so she tried to protect the animal that we were trying to hold down while we were sticking a needle in her to try and pull blood out to be able to analyze their health well during this sort of chaos I broke it away from trying to do the other walrus and i tried to sort of distract smooshy from the scene. Keeper from climbing she still like almost three hundred pounds so i put my hands in front of her face and you know there was just this moment where she took this deep breath,

16:30 And I saw her eyes just, it's as if they'd opened right up and something happened. And scientists that we have since spoken to long before any of our controversy between Marina and I explained to us that what happened was her brain circuitry must've reopened amidst the chaos. In that very brief instant my putting my hands in front of her face, her seeing me hearing me and smelling me What happened was her I tattooed all of my senses tattoo on her brain imprinted on her in the exact way that a. Newborn calf will imprint on a mother so that they're able to identify these babies amidst herds of thousands

17:16 So I in essence in that moment became smooshies mom and so when you try to consider what the relationship is between animal and calf Let's say mother and calf or even just daughter and mother have to stress that it's a it's a maternal like relationship That's what I share with her. That's the relationship by sure with them when I talk about Stealing a walrus life is short steal a walrus What I'm really saying his life is short gonna go steal my daughter It's a really odd and strange thing to say, but that is the level of resolve I have. That is the power of this relationship. She is family to me! Like you said, she isn't just a robot piece of meat. She isn't just a meat suit clad person. That's my family. They are holding my family against her will now and they're doing worse. Anyways...I don't want to get going too much now because I'm getting fired up next thing you know with the phone call in the river

18:12 It happens it happens and we definitely like odd and strange around here so i'm seven years into this if you think even for a moment that lost tonight older of results since day one that i was going to fight like hell for the animal dead ass wrong just as marine land would be, i have not changed my resolve is not changed one bit they have not in any way shape or form. diluted my will to fight whatsoever they've not compromise it in fact i only made stronger. Continue that's good to hear you get this job at marine land your form the spawned with this walrus you work there for twelve years talk about quitting i mean, i guess where are you pretty outspoken up to that point was their last straw kind of moment what happened

19:02 There was definitely all of that. I was certainly outspoken and at this point, i'd been deemed a problem employee. I've been sort of pulled aside. Look, Marineland is a mom-and-pop joint there's not no hundreds of employees we're talking about dozens at best so everyone gets to know each other pretty well and there really isn't divide between management staff anyway so I got the heads up from HR that you know listen Phil you've been asking the wrong questions even barking up the wrong trees even ruffling feathers Yeah, she said you know John the owner. So John he thinks you're a problem employee so what had happened is I started to lose some of my You know I was unable to hire people suddenly I was no longer dive supervisor like things were changing for me They were making it a little bit uncomfortable So I got sort of the heads up with what's happening as for last straws one morning? I walked in and we were two weeks to the opening of the park because marineland closes in the winter

19:56 Over the course of that my last winter there was a break in a disinfection, water disinfection unit which caused the water to go really really really I'll use the term toxic and it was really damaging animals for the duration of the winter. And much of my complaining and arguing was that not enough is being done because the animals were suffering incredibly and on account of fact at the park was closed there wasn't urgency in fixing the problem The owner was more inclined to eat soup at Tim Hortons and take baths three times a day than actually address the problems so that you took my quitting to fix the water albeit they're obviously having to do something because the park was gonna open but anyways i come strolling into the office and i could smell. That evening prior they must have dose the water with a huge concentrated amount of chlorine because it hit me like a right hook to face

20:46 and I knew what the effects would be on the animals, this wasn't the first time this happened but this was Marineland's resolve rather than actually try to fix the machines that were broken they thought they would fix the water by dumping barrels of...I mean i don't want to say it because you know its always a legally sensitive matter with me every time I open my mouth about what was actually happening there but nonetheless assume really horrible amounts of chlorine were going into the water I couldn't do it no more. Just the thought of going back to the warehouse, where the animals were and seeing what condition they were gonna be in was just turning my stomach And so in that moment right there and then I typed up a very brief two week sort-of like quit I sent it to now former CFO I CC'd my supervisor and said I'm not fucking doing this anymore Then shy of 2 weeks later I had an exit interview that I insisted on with the owner & CFO and told them things they didn't like

21:40 And they reminded me that I signed a non-disclosure agreement. Did I? Go get me a copy then. Because unbeknownst to them, in fact didn't sign it. I don't know how i got away with that but I was the one and only employee that didn't sign non-disclosure so... That's how I ended up basically walked out of my company like okay thats that But the thing is I should mention that I left Marine Line on fairly positive note because despite having to give up and leave Smushy all these crazy things It wasn't without agreement that I was still able to be part for life and I wouldn't have been able to quit otherwise. So, you know, I got to stress that." And so I thought that we were going to move forward in such a way that I can move forward in life without the daily whatever it is that's depressing my life that's going on at Marineland but I'm still able to help in the same capacity that I have because...

22:27 What's my experience and knowing the animals much as i did it was good what i did you know there were times that just wasn't needed and i want to in fact after i was quit really call me back in they need me to feed a dolphin i wasn't eating and i didn't we have this relationship moving forward but those. No there is an incident that happens largely inspired me to speak out where that relationship, it became evident that the relationship was in bad faith. Or Marine Line negotiated with me in bad faith ultimately that's what led to me agreeing to speak out publicly you know a newspaper had been calling and they wanted to do an exposé on Marine Line I was having none of it but...I saw Smushi one day just in absolute worst condition It became evident not only were they not going to keep me in the loop in helping her They were willing to let the very worst happen I saw it with my own eyes In fact I took pictures

23:14 i have them you'll see them one day and that's what i decided to speak out is it. I don't speak of who she's gonna die in albany damn does she dies without a fight and now seven years ago, man i just am always fascinated by synchronicity or these instances where the universe tends to provide when you factor in how rare this is to have the imprinting happen. The journey that you've been on me jimmy kimball talked about you been on road and couple times you've been on mike tyson podcast All along this way how funny it is that you didn't sign the nba and what you've done with that because a lot of other people would just be like oh thats the end of the story i signed in da and so i jus think thats really fascinating. Dude i will tell u this amidst all of these i have not made a single solitary decision all i had, all i done is watch every alternative

24:08 get taken away from me. And I've been taken and led down an impossible path, all I keep saying is that I've got the best seat in the house because all I'm doing is being a witness. Call me crazy and I'm comfortable with that but I have not made a decision whatsoever in terms of the universe providing there was a moment when I was sitting in my bedroom, I was curled up in fetal position rocking back-and-forth with my head with my eyes clutched shut which means I was deep inside I had to make a decision and i said, im gonna jump off the edge and let the universe do what it is clearly not allowing me not too. And the second that i let that go, i just allowed everything to flow, everything lined up in the most impossible way here we are 7 years later and im negotiating over fucking walrus. Yes man its a beautiful thing

24:59 In terms of the legal battle, we're very understanding of slap suits. These strategic lawsuits against public participation It's a major corporate tactic to keep people like yourself quiet and to keep situations like this from becoming bigger movements When did this start and has it been a burden for you these whole six to seven years the legal lawsuit aspect i imagine what i'm able to breathe easy and look back at everything in retrospect my job will probably break off on its way to the floor. It's difficult explain how i've gotten through it i don't know myself because of just allowed myself too embrace everything including the sleepless nights that

25:44 I mean, there's something about my resolve and again it can only come from something that i cant explain. That makes is such that I have teetered on the edge of disaster now. I've gone broke three times! I've gone dead ass broke where this is the end. I have one last breath if I and somehow in the eleventh hour... And If I told you all these eleventh hour nail biters I'm just got the best seat now so as tough and as crazy as it's been. It's something i'll have to explain in retrospect because in it is just too damn heavy every time i even try to take a look at it and i consider myself free from it all i almost well up with this hyper emotion because i think the prospect of being free

26:30 All of this is so powerful that I won't even allow myself to consider it because it's still I mean look We're seven years into it. This could last a lot more years. I don't know. I mean, you know It's a slapsuit You know how the sense or no? No, I mean we don't know how this ends exactly not in this case But you know the game and marine land In fact is playing it as we speak they've just threatened another motion looks like we've were going to court in April Because you know they're filing the motion in legal matters what happens is the plaintiff and the defendants are allotted a series of different motions. They're hearings where you're asking the judge, or the courts rather for clarity on matters It's very expensive You have to pay for court time My lawyer fees are very generously in fact only $325 an hour I think she only generously charges me maybe 150 an hour So you have to tack on a series of 8-hour days in preparation for... And what not it becomes very costly

27:28 And so that's Marineland game, it's what they've done since day one. But we're in such a position now that Marineland can't get out of this lawsuit. It's unfortunate for them but they cornered themselves and to be honest I don't have an iota of empathy for them, an iota sympathy for them In every which way shape or form...and I'm gonna use sort of like hypothetics here This isn't real! Don't send the police to my house Marineland but..in every which way that I can use a baseball bat to their knees? I'm going too until they topple OR Tell me how this amicable agreement which i'm steadfast and not negotiable so. If they don't want to get ruined in a lawsuit that i'm going to win, what trial that i'm going to take them to remember the suit me they wanna go to the lawsuit but trial that i will force upon that i will make happen despite them saying it's never gonna happen i will make happen

28:24 Or, we make this very easy. I'm trying to make things very easy for Marine Land. I can't make it easier for them at this point so...I know they see the opposite They think that i am making it very difficult and im making this so easy for them Im making it SO EASY for them to make the right decision which is to move the walrus We have a facility in mind They're willing facility There are mere hour and half away I can have that walrus moved If I got a call today from marine land And he said hey listen take this walrus and take her too uh..to the place I can have it there in three hours flat listen let's just make this really easy or will they get very difficult here something that needs to be stressed. What i was negotiating for smooshy when i was fighting for smooshy not rather negotiate what i was fighting for smushy in two thousand twelve and up until really two thousand fifteen there were five wallace prior that there is even more today there's only one four have died last two years

29:18 Walrus is a social animals that she needs to be with other hours forget the fact that she's living in a living hell in terms of lack of the pools are held. You can see it's all available online you can see the images. All they gotta do is move her, do the right thing for the animal I'm trying to get them to do the right thing it can't be done easier and willing to give everything that they want just willing to walk away from my campaign against because there are ways people negotiate some people like to say here's a hundred thousand dollars why don't you go away? And then there are other people that say how about I cost you a lot of money if you don't blah blah blah

29:57 So, the way I'm negotiating with Marineland is that I can't say to them well you know just give me this much money. To me it's never been about money and it's not going to be about money they're not gonna come up with the dollar figure that makes me happy because whatever dollar figure they give is a fraction of what its costed them and what it's going to cost them so my negotiating with them is simple If you don't want to lose everything, just move the walrus. It's so easy! How much easier can I make it? Anyways now i'm starting to sound like an asshole... Listen Greg Can you hear me are you still there or have I bored you into straight silence? Sorry no no i'm in it listen dude i'm gonna take this bong rip because i feel my head getting a little hot is that cool like is that okay sorry but i was having a rant here You're in a safe space and rants are good too but man this is

30:49 Kind of a tale as old as time i interview a lot of people who get involved in legal battles and usually the people i interview have the moral side and the corporations have money side and the system is set up for the people with the money side to typically when but something that, i find that it's very kind of car mc lee interesting is that. these companies will try to break a person and if they have the result that you have, and it gets to the phase of actual trial now that scares the shit out of these people because they don't want their dirty laundry aired in the courtroom. They thought they were gonna get rid of you long ago. That's exactly if there is no other plan there's no contingency plan and i've got them a place where they're very uncomfortable okay

31:37 It's funny because you know I am so I'm counter suing them in defamation. You know it's funny to think about it but imagine a defense where I sue the shit out of you, I smear you. I create outright lies that I know are lies that I can't prove about you because... You can make any claim in a lawsuit by the way and newspapers and journalists will take those claims And we'll spew them word for word as long as at the end they say something to the effect of none of these allegations have been proven in court They're able to put pictures-I mean it's pretty It's almost like a legal form of defamation. If you want to ruin someone, file a lawsuit make absurd claims in it let the media grab it especially if you've got friendly corporate media around here and see where it goes that's what Marine Land tried to do to me but imagine if that failed so imagine their defense to my defamation is well how could you claim defamation if our illegal lawsuit didn't work?

32:33 if my reputation hasn't suffered how is it what they've done can be deemed illegal. Kind of a weird legal question isn't it like look at didn't work do we try to ruin your life and it didn't work we don't know you nothing right, man i'm so glad we could give listeners all this background context but this is the big question i've been wanting to get to. It seems like obviously your biggest priority is the swallow risk obviously the whole thing Probably needs to come down the whole company or the structure of keeping animals in captivity but you want this walrus freed and this legal battle is gone on for years even on joe rogan four times your very vocal on twitter, you're here now why haven't they just given her up because there's no way that value of a single wall race that they don't even seem to use very much is worth this ongoing PR damage nightmare. Here's why

33:27 Because the former now deceased owner John Holder, I invite you to Google his name. A very controversial, very vindictive violent... And i don't want to say too much about him because I can also say very nice things about him too so it's unfair sometimes that he gets painted exclusively as this evil person but we're capable of awful things He especially But also he was capable of generous things Marine Lion has a lawyer who is now operating as sole controlling mind. His job is to transition this business from what it was, to what its going to be which is essentially chopped up and sold He's there to protect the whole family legacy There's now a widow one single remaining son The other one that was a friend of mine unfortunately passed away amidst all of this And you know there are few family members but nonetheless There is a revenge plot from beyond and the owner, the now dead owner

34:19 I am certain of it, made provisions that that walrus is to die at the park under no circumstances is she to leave. Now this was- this arrangement was made when there were five walruses there. I can see how her dying in the same way as the other four that just have you know? You just make the announcement and that's it but now that she's the last remaining walrus It changes the landscape entirely Now that the Toronto Zoo is building a walrus facility that will be ready in March, which is only an hour and half away. Imagine that! Now that has happened? And that's something... That's a move I am comfortable with making The landscape now is such that if Marineland says no it's because they're killing her They have zero excuses anymore

35:13 if they have even a night order of interest in the best interests of smooshy they need to move her to a place where she could be with other members of species a place that is only an hour and half away. Do that's the universe setting up the pins my friend that as crazy as it gets back is where we're at and i understand the idea of just this really rich owner being so stubborn because he used to getting his way. And this is kinda dark but why not just let her die i mean she's been in there for seven years while you're fighting if he's not gonna give her out to you,

35:50 The other walrus is a guy why even keep this one alive you could stop feeding her for a week and i guess he might have been able to consider. Is problem gone i'm sure that what is sent you wanna tear but at the same time like, do one of the other either free or let her die so the problem goes away there was a period of time when i had the inclination that the owners the owner was quite sick I had every reason to be concerned because he's a is not hunter i mean he was let's just say it was very gun friendly does the story of shooting two beautiful fucking labrador dogs.

36:27 You know, sometimes he was bored. But anyways... I had a lot of reason to be worried about both myself getting my head blown off and anyone in my vicinity truth be told! I was looking over my shoulder a lot And the walrus! I always wondered look if he's got the strength to hold the gun still why doesn't it just go in there? My hope and it may sound cold but you know in every which way is also not cold at all Is that his decline was so fast that he couldn't have done such a thing And I hope for his benefit that when he died it wasn't too torturous. I hope my footsteps weren't too loud. Haha, that's dickhead sorry! I don't mean to say that. That's alright man we're having a good time here but... Yeah look if you gotta know me i'm not much of an asshole so I do have sort of

37:09 We're no humor i did just take a rip out that bomb but you know cut me some slack and i'm having fun hey we are no humor is popular around here. Do it please offer my shoes like there comes a point where the madness just you know you just embrace it we laugh so we don't cry Do you know that again do i make a lot of t-shirts with all the things you said go for it and we're also pretty hip to conspiracies away things really work sometimes and. Usually its not just illegal battle on the surface but companies are powerful people like this are no strangers to even shadier intimidation tactics you kind of alluded to that but can you tell us about anything you might have experienced that

37:54 Maybe falls under that category. Well I can tell you from a conspiracy perspective what is true in my experience, when this thing started in 2012 and I thought that I would have the support of Canada so we're governed by provincial laws similar to states I thought the province, the Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. I thought that the municipality would all be in support they'd want to know what's going on and in every which way shape or form try to help outlaw these types of things That was not in fact the case What did come over the last many years is these companies and government work very symbiotically to make things very profitable and easy for the company

38:38 And that can't be more than true for every which way that this was dealt with at the provincial level and definitely at the municipal level. Marine land was accommodated in every which way, shape or form so much of my transition to wokeness I suppose, as people say today...as kids today say…I got my head smashed into a wall learning about what reality is out there. You can rest assured they're all friends! So beyond that, I've had the police sent to my house on probably three times. I mean I've been threatened to be sued multiple times. I've had a number of other things that I don't even want to necessarily get into but I've had a lot of strange things happen. You know I've had goons show up at my house and private eyes identify themselves have fallen all over the place. It's kind of crazy.

39:25 the police coming to my house almost on repeat. I think MarineLand's got them on speed dial, at least they had them for a while. You know one time this is crazy this is absolutely absurd but I retweeted a Canadian one of the most absurd Canadian comics who had quote tweeted a PETA article about trainers revealing the atrocities at Marine Land, so it would have been an article back in 2012 of myself and others speaking out. And this comedian quoted it said time to burn this place down I pushed retweet and Marine Land sent the cybercrimes unit division to my house They said that I was inciting violence and encouraging my followers to burn Marine Land down. Because imagine this, Kenny Hotz from Kenny vs Spenny. It's a cucka peepy humor comedy. Kenny Hotz retweeted or did that tweet. Not only that here is the conspiracy for it! That tweet got deleted so I tweeted at Kenny Hotz and he said what the hell you delete that for? He didn't delete it Twitter did.

40:23 Twitter doesn't delete tweets, do they? They don't until they do. But you know what I guarantee this Kenny Haas would have got a call from Marineland's lawyer. I guarantee that so anyways Kenny Haas is out there he's got no balls come on man keep the tweet up and I heard something similar about Vice right Oh, just recently in fact yes and you know I can rest assured that it wouldn't only be Vice. But yeah recently Vice did an article or rather a rather extensive interview with them in August and I was really hoping to get that out because its going to emphasize rather Smooshy's sort of perilous situation is gonna update people on our sorta legal matters where they are because people are keeping in touch this is gonna be great timely article. And Marine Land threatened to sue them as they do

41:08 Vice quashed it. They're not going to publish this thing, I can't believe it! I'm half tempted to publish the article myself because I've actually got some DM exchanges with a journalist where he says you know they want to know more questions about this and that's the last communication I really had with him so I almost feel like printing the DMs or rather publishing the DMS be like hey here are things MarineLand doesn't think are true that I am gonna stand by absolutely and have proof for. I mean I can't excuse why they shelved this thing What the hell happened to vice dude oh my god well rupert murdoch bought in. Oh my god i remember there was a time where if I would have been advice out of been the punk is just what it did the king around here but you don't your advice these days like vice cause hang up hang up on vice by the way yes there's not there's another teacher that like to make hang up on vice

41:58 i hear you and the last time i heard an interview with you were talking about the negotiations as you mentioned just prior end. i guess i'm curious what do they want from you and they want to be quiet i guess but they don't want this to go to trial u want the walrus released. What are you willing to give up or what are they asking for you to give up as much as you can say so all say that is my choice i can say if i can't say, i would imagine i dont know but it's too legally sensitive to disclose particulars but will save this if i am to assume with a lot I'll assume they want the same thing they've demanded from other people that they've managed to successfully break, or not break just cause to stop talking. Or rather they silenced on account of their legal expenditures what they would want is for sure a no trespassing clause at any capacity both park and former employees will have a few specific names They want non disparagement clause where i can't actually disparage the park or members of those families

42:59 You know they would probably, I mean in a perfect world they would want me to take back everything and anything that i've said. They would definitely want my participation in current projects to end, current big projects to end things that I can't legally end anyways but they kind of wanted that you know? They really just wanted me shut up, they didn't want me able to speak And i'll tell you something it's something on never sign of never put paper to anything that legally binds me in any way shape or form to not being completely free human anyway she but i am able to be in this world what are the forgiving person.

43:37 I'm a forgetting person and you know what i got squashed beefs. I don't kick dead dogs like if they want any sort of civility moving forward and bear in mind like, you know they're trying to protect their legacy there voraciously trying to protect the legacy will look at five the last word i can assure that that legacy is going to be worth dog shit. If they wanna make things super easy then become friends with me let's just do this with a smile and maybe i won't write that book Maybe I won't put that extra chapter. You know, maybe I won't you know after this legal matters depending on how they end There's a lot of neglect and there's a lot of questionable practices legally speaking within the practice itself That you know, I intend to pursue after the fact Of course I don't intend to allow certain people whether they be professionals or not to get away with being in breach of their own You know have their own code of ethics No, I'm not gonna let anyone get away with anything when we keep pounding the pavement Keep doing this or it all ends

44:32 So it really becomes a question of what these people as individuals and marine land I suppose who's by the way not a person. It's a soulless corporation depending on how they want to ride off into the sunset you know, it's up to them. I know I wanna do with a smile! I'd like to hug their lawyer, I'd like to hug the widow, now president's widow I don't want all this beef dude, i don't like living in this world of hate. They've summoned this fight out of me but much of it is fueled by anger as well so its a helluva coat to wear...it's heavy! I used to be a funny guy and now im a happy dude. I dont know what that's like anymore I don't want to lament, but it's a different thing. It's um...I'm always 24-7 in sort of like constant state of war. It weighs on you and it does things to your ego. You know? I have to on occasion or at least that I've gone and I intended go again. I had to drink some ayahuasca break myself down so I can get some more perspective

45:25 I'm doing that this summer. Oh yeah, go for it dude! It keeps coming up on the show the very year i tend to do and its like every guest even though the obscure walrus mom is bringing up ayahuasca Dude i visited smushy in my ayahuasca trip but i don't have to tell you but it's uh... very powerful experience and wish you the best You're gonna come from with a lot of lessons learned But it's lessons you'll forget if you don't practice so..you know i intend on doing same going back There's no how-to guide to destroying savage corporation or surviving one And by virtue of destroying, there is none. I'm paving my own sort of path here and again I stress that I am a witness so it's been easy because it has all worked out in retro. So it's easy to say that it has been easy but I do wonder how much of it I wear?

46:11 It's going to be interesting because what you know we spoke earlier about the idea of doing a podcast for has been this idea. We don't have been pretty quick too I will only have relevance for so long and social media everything else with interest well I have to talk about if either the walrus dies or the lawsuit get resolved or is it she's moved me that's the happiest endings but you're only as good as what you do next with the help becomes of me I don't know first and foremost I want to get back to feeling like human being yeah Yeah, one thing at a time man. And just to maybe broaden this out and talk about things I'm sure you're knowledgeable about but maybe aren't quite as hot as going right after marine land let me ask you more about dolphins and whales just in general because they seem like extremely intelligent animals and i actually live only a few miles from SeaWorld San Diego's own Orca Auschwitz

47:03 but it seems doubly cruel because of how smart they are and how big they are. And we kind of talked about that a little bit, but what can you say about the minds of marine mammals or whales and dolphins that you've discovered by being in proximity to them? I'll say this... You learn most about them observing them when they have no idea that you're watching. People who see them will never see that. They can't It's not possible but because i was able to you know there were times i was there twenty four seven because i'm able to see it then when they're not purposely and in every which way trying to you know they're trying to decipher the code everyday of how to survive beat get out that's it they're trying to decide for the coast with the code is ok swim up to the person thats specials up with the bucket open your mouth.

47:56 You get fish. Raise your pectoral flipper and touch the trainer's hand when they extend the hand, you get fish. These are codes they're breaking every single day. Trainers have the misconception that oh this is a power...this is a bond we're developing now. Smushy and I's relationship again I have to stress as an anomaly she thinks I'm her mom call it one in a...I don't even know there aren't seven point something billion people? I'm the only one doesn't exist those animals always deciphering codes what they do Right it's more of a prisoner and guard relationship rather than a bond of friends. Well that is exactly in the trainers will never acknowledge that because they you know they are not so when you suggested one of the just let smushy die no trainer works at marina is gonna love to have none of them there because they love animals make no mistake might be idiots on account for the fact that they don't see writing on the wall refused or they don't actually see things what they are but if their kids further

48:51 to their own peril, really. That they would benefit them the most if they could just decide to not have this conscious bias or I don't know what you call it... But they wouldn't do this stuff. They're there because they love them Yeah, whales and dolphins are people in every which way that you would communicate with a person that does not speak your language There's just some level of universal language out there that once you find that common ground You elevate yourself to that level of communication everything above is bonus Everything at that point makes you nothing but empathy empathetic for them because you realize that they are just people with a different meat suit. You know, they may be capable of even more elaborate communication than we are by virtue of sometimes less is more and they have very powerful emotional bonds family bonds that are all broken in these environments so what your looking at is lost souls your looking at shadows wrapped in skins I can't stress it enough when you see them jumping into shows and everything you're seeing a spectacle its absolute nonsense what you're seeing is exhibition of cruelty

49:49 Oh by the way, and I thought it might be worth noting. Marine Land had... so you watched Blackfish? Yes it's been a while and i didn't have the guts to watch again but yeah. Can you know that the documentary is centered around a whale named telecom right, can you would've known the stat that sea world bread telecom a lot like some absurd percentage of all other captives at seaworlds are sired from telecom this way that killed three four trainers they started a son i take up i take it was traded from seaworld to marine land i can't show you signs of aggression towards both people and trainers he was showing psychological stress is there for a few years that was really bad to the point where she would in fact sued marina citing that i'm really wasn't capable proper care.

50:38 record determined that c world was right c world got a kicker removed and he now lives at sea world san diego. He flew the same flight path as your eyes current conversation if it was via landline wow wow man, add we are starting to wind this thing down Let's say they give you smoochie tomorrow i mean what would you do with your mentioned you have this location that would be probably. Beneficial for but water says i think need a lot don't they yeah they need a lot but where is she lives now, i have to say almost anywhere as an improvement so the facility i haven't mind of the tron zoo there actually as we speak

51:22 retrofitting one of their older exhibits, so it's going to be far more accommodating for Smoochie even by virtue alone of being outdoors. She is currently in a warehouse under artificial lights with... I mean there isn't even an air conditioner over there in the summer so she's sweltering in the summer and winter is better for her in terms temperature but the airs disgusting because no windows are now open there's no natural light in place nonetheless I would like to see her go to the Toronto Zoo. I would like that to be a temporary place for which she is accommodated and then thereafter we see what's next but listen it's too early talk final destinations let's just get into Toronto, let's get her there once she's there once she and i have reunited she knows I still exist

52:07 Once she's under the sun, or once she is able to breathe fresh air and see other members of her species. Then we'll all just take a moment to breathe... sort-of process exactly the magnitude of what the hell just happened! And then we will reconvene but for now time is of the essence I mean four out five walruses have died in last two years She's the last remaining one you know she lives in a concrete hell hole cesspool She needs to get taken out let's just get that done Well i mean the odds that she's still alive obviously she still has a little bit of hope and ultimately I'd love to see you. Modest house on the beach near most natural habitat in just be left alone to be there while russ mom you always knew where they were yeah man that's the dream it's the dream so what's next for you i mean do you know what you want out of life once this marine land chapter is closed

53:02 That's interesting. I have to say that I've developed a level of comfort with the extreme highs, I don't love the lows but the extreme highs such as for instance flying out to LA and rubbing elbows with the likes of Whitney Cummings and Joe and Steve-O and Mike Tyson. I've enjoyed all that little bit I have to admit So, I don't know. I do hope in some way shape or form that my gift of gab opens up some opportunity or something. I mean, I don't know. I'm still sort of wrapping my mind around it. I'm no spring chicken! I just know that nine to five is not that appealing to me—just as it wasn't to you man. So, I assume I'll be carving my own path and continue to. I'm sure the universe has something to serve me up." Well there's definitely no going back. It's impossible. It'd be like going back to high school

53:49 It's just tough, man. It's just tough I don't know we'll see the answers are all coming in 2020 if you didn't know right clarity clear vision in 2020 That's it man Well, I got a lot of respect for you and the difficult journey that you've been on Definitely tell the people where they can donate or support the work social media links all that good stuff Walrus whisperer on Twitter and Instagram You can try to add me on Facebook But I don't really like it Save smooshy.com S A V E S M O O S H I you can make a small contribution again, every dollar's soldier stay tuned we've got a lot of good things coming in 2020 including a couple episodes for broadcasts with regards to our battle that's as much as i'll say about it yeah come join the fight it might be a little early to say some but you're in a couple documentaries that are maybe coming out this year too right

54:41 Yeah couple of documentaries coming out but you know marina is gonna try to make that difficult as possible so i don't want to say too much but all i will say is they still have a chance the help. Maybe with a happy ending i mean it's really up to them how they are they wanna be perceived in the world has everything do their actions well does seem like there's some hope around negotiation cuz your both have what the other wants and life should really just be this simple but I am glad we could do this. Now that you've been on The Joe Rogan Experience, hotboxing with Mike Tyson in the higher side chats, I guess you got the true stoner podcast trifecta under your belt so there's that! I'll smoke to that! Indeed me as well well seriously though i do appreciate your commitment man and i'm happy we could highlight it keep up the good work and take care out there You too Greg dude anytime appreciate appreciate your time and your work

55:35 And boom goes the dynamite, dear people! Good times with Walrus Phil. And big thanks to Stephanie who is probably the reason Phil contacted me in the first place He hit me up on Twitter and my first thought was How did The Walrus Whisperer get a blue check and I can't? But my second thought was that as much as I love animals and am fascinated by them and their ways, we don't bring them into the fold very often on this show. And marine mammals in particular—the whales, the dolphins—we know they're smarter than a lot of other things. And smarter isn't even the right word. Maybe they exude a more complex form of consciousness than say a lot of other creatures

56:25 I did hear Phil on Joe Rogan a couple of times and Joe did describe his own experience swimming with dolphins being really high as you do. And he was hit with the realization that they are pretty much people in a strange suit, it's easy to overlook because they don't manipulate their environment we think that's the intelligence test but dolphins and whales they don't really need to do that there running at ocean up down left right hey be start you know They are best suited for their world they don't need bowling alleys escalades and i'm max theaters to show that they have some advanced cognition so i was happy to do this one it's always a little. Challenging when i think about feeling two hours with one specific story but we could add those other threads of our marine mammals to kind of flesh out

57:19 And right now I'm all about trying to cover injustices that are outside of politics, and i think this applies. Plus it's something nobody expected and the funny thing about someone who might say why don't you cover something more serious bro rather than this safe walrus softball show? You scared man who got to you dude! The funny thing is about that, the irony is that when you hone in on one company or one group like Scientology... That is a lot riskier of a show than something about Sabbatean Frankest death cults. But it really IS insane! Just give Smooshy to his man-mom and call it a day guys She's not being used in the routines she's costing you a lot in resources just to keep her

58:13 Phil's all over the goddamn internet tarnishing the brand and it's already been established how rare this imprinting situation is. Just take the L on this one! In fact you could have gotten good PR if you'd done this several years ago I see it as a strategic blunder to say the least And you also gotta love the elements of synchronicity in this story Does seem like Phil's fate and to say that all the other walruses have died but her? It's like this story is right there waiting for the last chapter, the happy ending. And I hope they get it! If Smooshy did get moved to this nicer zoo think about the sorts of kids programs they could have getting up close and personal with her if Phil was there. I know zoos and everything are problematic too but if you want people to

59:11 understand and care and respect animals, get kids up close with them. But that's what I was trying to get at in this interview is that i'm just so frustrated with the people involved here and their unwillingness to compromise! I don't know if there's some other piece of the puzzle I'm not seeing but it seems like the simplest of problems to solve In fact all this money for legal fees and lost revenue could have just bought smooshy outright i think it's a smoochie once i can't help but that damn robin williams movie keeps creeping back into my subconscious, either way i hope phil finds happy ending here and i'm glad we could talk about his situation as well as the orcas in the dolphins.

1:00:05 I've mentioned before that i had an interview scheduled to talk to an expert on the aquatic ape theory. That idea that dolphins really are a branch of human evolution that went into the water and never came out, The whole ape-to-human evolution theory is problematic yes i know but i do think this is an interesting angle on it But then i found out the author was a registered ex-nazi who was removed from the nazi party because they found him with child porn. And of course he reinvented himself as a weird stuff author while in prison,

1:00:43 But that's a show big thanks to phil nice to have someone to smoke with at work And I do understand his anxiety over What's gonna come next? I mean he's had this really great ride He's famous for being the walrus mom. It's taking him to some pretty high heights clearly, he's on thc but if smooshy dies or he gets her back Then what I feel that, but you gotta hope that something will emerge. And I wish him well! Of course we have a second hour of the show for Plus Members as always...

1:01:24 I tried to give you the full story in the first hour, but there are always some other threads we can pull on. And in this one we got into interesting insights into orca language new laws that are on the books to help these animals where these animals are being captured what Orcas do when members of their pods are captured The mass animal graveyard and what it's like to really get that Rogan bump So just some fun stuff to fill us out. Well, fun stuff and then the animal graveyard stuff I wouldn't call that fun but informative? I mean you get it so give Phil some love on Twitter let him know you're with the cause i'm sure even a hi there and hello is helpful when you're the target of some big corporate legal battle but i'm getting out of here your move Animal Abusers Captivity Captors and Operators Of Orca Auschwitz

1:02:24 Your fucking movie. No one knows what it's like to be the bad man, To be the sad man behind blue eyes And no one knows what it's like to be hated, Be fated to telling only lies But my drift is empty as my conscience

1:03:10 Seems to be I have outworked me Lonely since they exposed me on THC No one knows what it's like To feel these feelings Like i do And I blame you! No one bites back as hard On their anger None of my pain

1:04:01 can show through But my dreams aren't as empty As my conscience See, I have AIDS They exposed me on THC But my dreams aren't as empty As my conscience

1:05:23 I have outworked ways lonely since they exposed me on THC. No one knows what it's like to be the bad man, to be the sad man behind