Michael Cremo | Extreme Out Of Place Artifacts, More Forbidden Archaeology, & Vedic Cosmology

00:00 Hey now, before we get into this one I just wanted to let everybody know that i did something a little crazy and unprecedented. And I took the need for a credit card off the 7 day free plus trial yes! I am a true wild man...I mean really who does that? But now all you have to do is make a username and password You get full access to everything for seven days No need to remember to cancel before an upcoming charge or anything like that We know how the game is played right?! Well, I hope you'll take a look behind my curtain and like it enough to stay but there's only one way to find out. It's hard to get something for nothing in this world so treat yourself

00:37 The planet's puppet masters almost surely have a plan There is clearly maybe something there beyond the realm of man And until we've thoroughly tested every last close-chested view I find the more we think, the less we really do Where would be without THC? Cause we know they're lying to us just don't know to what degree Without THC, the higher sidechats show Greg Cunn and CUMMY

01:23 Well well well higher side chatter serenity now from the sunshine state i'm great carl wood and we know western academic science is in a tough place we have more more people talking about the replication crisis and major studies internally funded testing as often structured to guarantee positive results. Three-letter agency approvals tend to go to the highest bidder. Many major theories are taken as gospel with new evidence suppressed if it contradicts the preapproved models, and across all of scientific disciplines exists an air of smugness and superiority that they have the right answers and no alternative research or outside-the box thinking could ever contribute to official canon."

02:03 And all this corruption, privilege and arrogance is eroding trust from those who can see past the credentials and recognize that suppressing inconvenient information is not scientific at all. But back in 1993 when today's return guest Michael Cremo put out his classic book Forbidden Archaeology along with his co-author Richard L Thompson The problems with the pre-approved experts were far less known, and time has only worked in his favor. The book contained 900 pages in case after case of out of place artifacts human bones and preserved human footprints stacking up into the hundreds And as more and more inconvenient discoveries have been made that don't fit into the strict model of Darwinian evolution, the official silence has been deafening. Now Michael is back with a sequel of sorts titled Extreme Human Antiquity Further Investigations Into Forbidden Archaeology that contains another 400 plus pages worth of Darwinian timeline breaking discoveries just in the 33 years since the release of the original forbidden archaeology

03:03 In the time in between, he's also written books like Human Devolution A Vedic Alternative to Darwin's Theory Forbidden Archaeology's Impact How a Controversial New Book Shocked the Scientific Community and Became an Underground Classic My Science, My Religion a collection of his academic papers and The Forbidden Archaeologist a collection of articles from Atlantis Rising Magazine. He's also a practitioner of and advocate for Bhakti Yoga the yoga devotion and the Vedic cosmology which he thinks provides a much more palatable human story that fits much better with evidence found Following up on our first interview 12 years ago, the collector of the damned facts of forbidden archeology and a Darwinist's worst nightmare. 77 years young Michael Cremo good sir welcome back. Great to be back. 12 Years!

03:53 Pretty short time. Sure, sure it is a record for me. I don't think there's ever been a gap that large but it's a real pleasure to speak with you again. I didn't have it in me too listen back to hear myself stumble through our first interview. I think I was 28 years old by older stuff doesn't hold up quite as well as yours But as for what you've done in just presenting the evidence that breaks the official western model now even more so with this new book i feel like you are a bit of a pioneer and not approach to tackling the problems of your field. What now it seems almost trendy across medicine astrophysics standard physics energy sciences food science,

04:32 The list goes on, you will find alternative researchers who take your same approach in poking the holes in the official orthodoxies of science. And that has to feel kind of good right? Or at least nice to know you have kindred spirits across other disciplines noticing similar problems in their fields. Yeah well I noticed that when I started giving lectures at universities one of the places I went was South Africa and I spoke at a university there in Pretoria, and I talked about... Well first of all my audience was not students because they were on vacation. So my audience was the science professors from all the different disciplines at the university and I gave my talk and I talked about the process of knowledge filtration operating in archeology

05:30 So after my talk i was standing around in the lobby speaking to different people and one professor kind of looked around walked up to me. Instead privately you know mr cream this process of knowledge filtration that your talking about operating in my discipline physics let me tell you about it, and then he would go away. And then another one would walk up, kind of look around to make sure nobody was listening saying this process of knowledge filtration you're talking about is operating in my discipline biochemistry and that gave me a clue that exactly what you're talking about today is the actual situation. There's one thing however

06:23 Playing out the anomalies the things that a discipline gets wrong or better question of what is one thing, but to really make change you have to offer an alternative. That does a better job and explaining the anomalies and perhaps also questions that are disappointed looking for an answer to yes and of course we're gonna get into that Another point of vindication in your new book, you note is when forbidden archaeology came out. The official timeline was that we evolved into modern humans about a hundred thousand years ago and that's it! Now they've been confronted with so much they said fine and moved it back to 300 000 years so there are a lot of cases in the original forbidden archaeology that are no longer forbidden another feather on your cap

07:20 Absolutely. It's interesting how things have moved in the direction we talked about in forbidden archaeology, I think they're taking baby steps but in the right direction so that's hopeful another thing that came out in modern science that we talked about and forbidden archaeology is that, in the fairly recent past several hominin types were existing at the same time coexisting.

07:58 the Neanderthals, the first anatomically modern humans. The Denisovans there are a couple other less well-known species that they believed were also coexisting at the same time when forbidden archaeology came out the mainstream idea was more linear that there was one hominid existing at a time it would evolve into another one and then another one But this idea of coexistence is now the mainstream idea.

08:35 My problem with the current mainstream idea of coexistence is it doesn't extend far enough into the past. In other words, humans like us have coexisted with other hominid types so-called human ancestors like Neanderthals, Homo erectus and so forth going much further back in time than they now think possible. But again, they're taking baby steps in what I regard as the right direction." At least it's the right direction, but yes frustrating that it's baby steps. But for people who haven't cracked open these books they have a very similar structure and that you just list case after case of preserved human footprints or human bones or various artifacts or artworks that end up being dated way outside of the timeline even if hundreds of them turned out to be wrong you still have hundreds more It's basically an onslaught of information here deal with all of this

09:37 And I have no allegiances to the Darwinian model, break it all you want. But I am often left wondering how you can state these dates of a hundred thousand years old, a million years old tens of millions years of years ahold in some cases with any sort of confidence if they've been so wrong about the timeline wouldn't it be a bit dubious to assume some of these dating methods have that much reliability? Yes, that's certainly one approach is to question the dating methods. And there are others who have alternative views who also questioned the dating methods and I'm not saying they're entirely reliable but now i have to have some kind of framework for discussion if im engaged in discussions with

10:29 Supporters of the current mainstream theories we have to have some frame of reference so why procedure is, who's a recording today did you consider reliable. The age of this formation is so many years old And if you wanna question all the dating methods well find either way i went. Yes but for the sake of discussion for having a frame of reference i proceeded and fashion, fair enough yes very savvy view and i had to address that early cuz i know people miss audience are gonna be like

11:11 How can you rely on this and but what do you know one million verse ten million in all this but yeah that's a great response this is the standard we have so according to your standard that u. Think is valid academia here some evidence it doesn't fit i think its perfect so let's get into a little of the evidence in the new book really is just a pandora box of cases but but do you have any personal favorites or cases from the new book that you think are particularly good examples of model breaking for the Darwinian paradigm? Well, we could talk about the more extreme cases. Or cases that are closer to what modern science now accepts. I think what's really impressive to me is not any particular case

12:04 The huge volume of these cases so there was one case to give a very extreme example is and. England discovery was made not just in england but other countries in europe early on the twentieth century late nineteen century, of a particular kind of evidence for extreme human antiquity, and that is animal bones with cut marks on them. That looked like butchering marks so there were many cases like that. So there was one scientist in England Dr. McKinney Hughes who wanted to dismiss all this evidence

12:57 He wanted to show that it's really ridiculous, it shouldn't be given any attention at all. So what he presented at a scientific conference was a dinosaur bone actually a marine dinosaur with cut marks apparent cut marks on it you know that didn't appear to be natural But the way he dismissed them was to say, if this had been found it's a dinosaur so it has to be according to modern calculations at least 65 million years old.

13:45 Because that's when according to the current idea of a dinosaur is. When did state because of the cosmic impact event some asteroid something like that struck the earth and created such disturbances that they disappear so he said if this were found, if this bone had been found in a recent formation along with other such bones, you would think it looks completely like something that was done by human. And his reasoning was well of course we know humans didn't exist during the time of the dinosaurs so that's proof that all this other evidence is wrong now

14:37 That doesn't really follow logically if you think about it. If he was prepared to accept that if it had been found in a recent formation as the result of human intelligent work with using stone tools or metal weapons to cut the flesh of this dinosaur, then It's only because he assumes that human beings didn't exist at that time, that he could use the evidence to dismiss all of the other anomalous evidence that had accumulated. Now I'm going to let readers or people who are hearing this make up their own minds about it and they can say okay very interesting Mr. Primo but I am not persuaded That is fine with me

15:30 Up to each individual to make up their mind about these things but what i do object to is when such people. Use the power of government and there monopoly in the education systems and scientific educational institutions around the world to impose that view That's where I began to have a problem. Very much on that page and i had a couple examples myself so you mentioned sites of butchering yes there's one. Of rhino bones like a rhino butchering site in the ancient past which is just kind of funny there's footprints and limestone from saint louis considered to be three hundred thirty three million years old allotted times this is like coming from well this layer of rock

16:29 This is supposed to be associated with this period so by deduction it has to be quite old there's another example of a shoe print or a fossilized part of the shoe they're unsure that is looking like two hundred and eight million years old. And that was interesting because the actual, Artifacts seems to be missing there's a record that you know in the book that shows that someone from the rockefeller institute came and took photos of it. But where is it doesn't seem to be found one that i really like just to throw out one more example because,

17:05 For me i don't know about the dating but i do think it's interesting to find things that are found. Really far in the earth and there is a case where in nampa idaho they were drilling a well and they were drilling three hundred feet down, up came as strange little human figurine i think i have a picture of it somewhere try to include but That's pretty interesting whatever you say about the dating three hundred feet down is pretty far and this is just like a handful out of hundreds in your books. Absolutely that case is really quite interesting again it was from the late nineteen century for some people say,

17:48 Well that's from the nineteen century what did people know then we've been so far. But no scientific evidence doesn't have an expiration date on it if you look in actually in the current textbooks of, archaeology, they always include cases from previous centuries, previous decades. And they call them pioneering research that laid the foundations for today's conclusions that we've reached. So it's not that because a piece of evidence was discovered before January 1st

18:30 1900 that it's automatically invalid. If you proceed in that way, you have to say that all the evidence now that you consider so conclusive and 2100 is going to be invalid all the evidence that you're talking today is invalid. So, you can't proceed that basis that just because something was discovered in the 19th century it is automatically no longer valid yet to evaluate and see if it should still be part of the discourse now and that particular case

19:15 You had some accusations of hoaxing because the, the object was discovered during a well boring people drill for water in that part of the country. I know the western states and at depth of about three hundred feet is your mansion. they came up from the wellboring with this object. Now, there were some people who tried to offer a different explanation. They said, well there must have been a fissure that went down to that level and you know there was some little artifact that had been made, some figurine that had been made by

20:09 Indian tribes and it had washed down that fissure and gradually made its way down to the level at which it was found. Now, you can proceed in that way to give hypothetical explanations of how something may have come down from some higher level But scientifically, you could say that about any discovery known that supports the dominant theory or one that contradicts it. To proceed in a scientific way you actually have to demonstrate well here is the place where such artifacts are found on this surface and here is the fissure that led down to that level at which was found

21:01 Otherwise, you can dismiss any discovery by giving a list of possible ways in which it is wrong. Or you could propose the hoax. The usual problem with hoax explanations is there's several different hoaxes possibilities mentioned which means they can't all be true and perhaps none of them are true. You really have to look at each case and see what the original discoverers actually said, whether they considered these alternative possibilities and ruled them out which in many cases turns out to be the fact or if there's some obvious mistake that was made. So without evaluating each case on its own merits you really can't tell. I agree!

22:02 When it comes to what you mentioned earlier about the importance of presenting a better alternative let's get into that cuz i love the damned facts of archeology but what i think is even more interesting as at u in your mentor richard l thompson discovered the piranhas the vedic historical writings which told of human populations existing far longer than current science allows. Then you ask yourself is there more evidence beyond the statements of the piranhas And it turned out there was hundreds of accounts. Obviously that's what filled the 900 pages of the classic book and this new one as well. Funny enough, Human Devolution A Vedic Alternative to Darwin's Theory is the book of yours I haven't read but am certainly probably most drawn to having heard you talk about this

22:48 Can you tell us a bit more about what the Puranas say about human history and why even are there humans, and why Vedic cosmology might be a better model in that it can incorporate all of these out-of-place artifacts? Yeah. I mean that is a very important point because as I said if an idea is going to make progress It has to first of all not just point out the anomalies but it needs to provide some sort of intellectual framework that can not only accommodate that evidence, but solve problems that are confronting a discipline today. This process was described by historian and philosopher of science Thomas Kuhn in his book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions

23:47 Yeah he pointed out that. if there's not a paradigm in the scientific discipline, by paradigm he means a set of conclusions and methods that help scientists determine what is really a fact and what is not. What are the important questions in our discipline? How well have they been answered? And they have a paradigm Once you have a paradigm about what the conclusions of your discipline are, and what the methods are and what are the standards of evidence. Then you can start making judgments this piece of evidence fits this other pieces of evidence doesn't gradually they have a process

24:41 by which they develop their discipline. But the anomalies are very important, in the beginning there may be a few anomalies things that don't fit that can't be explained or set aside but over time the number of anomalies may accumulate so it becomes significant that people start exploring alternatives And that's when you have a revolution in science whether it is physics or biology, or archaeology. When enough anomalies accumulate they begin to provoke questions about the dominant paradigm and then there may be a paradigm shift

25:33 So I call this process knowledge filtration, but it's not something unique with me. It's something that scientists and philosophers of science and historians of science have understood for a long time. What becomes necessary at that point is to do something... To get a paradigm shift, an alternative has to be offered And I think this alternative, which I think goes way beyond archeology and deals with every scientific discipline is that scientists today and for the past several centuries have ignored the problem of consciousness.

26:27 It's a huge problem right from the very beginning, from cosmology and astrophysics onto chemistry onto biology, archeology. It affects everything in science. Now the way I applied this to archeology and human origins is like this. In forbidden archaeology I document or we documented Richard thompson and i hundreds of cases of anomalies that contradict the dominant theories. Are these cases are material evidence about stones bones footprints things like that but,

27:17 What I pointed out in human devolution, if we're going to propose an alternative theory or concept of human origins. First of all before we do that, we should understand what a human being is? Now many scientists today most of them are operating under the assumption that we are purely material beings where combinations of molecules, of chemical elements. The ones found in the periodic table and as far as consciousness goes that's a temporary byproduct of bioelectrical activity in the brain has no fundamental existence it's kind like the fizzing of a 7-up or something like that you know it just goes away very quickly

28:15 So I don't accept that. It's an assumption that people make, but it's an assumption that is contradicted by vast amounts of evidence and human testimony from different cultures over the course of the past 2,000 years. They point to the idea that a human being is not just a combination of material elements, it's a combination Three things, material matter ordinary matter yes. But then there are subtle mental and intellectual energies associated with living organisms especially the human that have effects that can't really be explained by current laws of physics. There is evidence for a conscious self that can exist apart from the brain, apart from the body, apart from matter

29:15 So that if we want to have a comprehensive theory or concept of human origins, we have to take into account what a human being or any other living thing actually is. I would say the proper assumption to make is that it's a combination of matter mind and consciousness So the first step in human delusion, that book The Vedic Alternative to Darwin's Theory is to justify that in terms of scientific evidence. Anomalous reports and various fields of science that deal with a human organism and

30:06 With that established, then we can begin to try to offer an explanation based on that set of assumptions which helps accommodate all the evidence that science has come across but ignores and challenges assumption that everything can be explained by combinations with ordinary material evidence. The reason I like the Vedic sources of knowledge is they explicitly deal with this set of assumptions. They deal with the actions of mind, they deal with the evidence and activity of a conscious self, they deal with ordinary matter

31:07 So it helps form a conceptual framework in which to think about these things and perhaps come to answers to fundamental questions. Yes, I've heard you talk about this before and this analogy of the vehicle and i love it! It's just so simple and elegant that I want to make sure we fold some of that in but the Vedic's according to previous interviews I've heard with you they say that the higher realm of pure consciousness is governed by love. It is a choice to be in love if it's not a choice it's not real love...that's force

31:42 So if our consciousness chooses an alternative, non-love then we can't be in that realm. So we go to a place where we can work that out our hedonism or our selfishness or egotistical desires And we act that out in this plane with a lot of other people acting it out too. And then, we can return and the human body is a vehicle that takes us to the place to do that. We are pure consciousness and the analogy I've heard you talk about is if humans said well we want to live under the sea, we wanna have city at the bottom of the ocean Well You have to develop a vehicle container That you can go down there and live in

32:28 And that's a just such a great parallel analogy to our consciousness in the higher realm needing a physical place to act out these issues that we might deal with you know u spend enough time. And it round of infinite love you maybe start to get bored or wonder what else is out there you come down here you find out and then you go right on back to the loving place but to me thats just Great it's just a really easy analogy that i can understand and it goes so much further than our system which is just blanket denial of consciousness of the human vehicle. Stuff i really like maybe you can elaborate on some of that in how its seen in the east versus the west another analogy that are used, who is there no computer yeah why did the computer you have hardware

33:22 You have software that allows a user to interact with the hardware and use it for different purposes. Either to make a video or write a book or keep track of one's accounting and finances, make a tax report. That is a system, hardware-software user So I think if we look at ourselves, we see the same thing. The body made of the ordinary physical elements, the chemical elements, iron, phosphorus all those elements that is like a computer hardware so our gross physical body is like that or subtle mental body

34:22 is like the software that allows a user, the soul or conscious self to interact with this hardware and use it for different purposes. Of course, a computer user doesn't have to use the computer do the calculation on his own or just like social media users. You don't have to use social media to communicate with others, you can completely separate yourself from your mobile phone and your network and just communicate with people without that so I think that kind of

35:16 Also helps people understand our situation as conscious cells with a mental body. We often say, well I feel happy today i feel sad today i feel depressed i feel inspired we're looking at our mentor mistakes you know my mind is disturbed by mine just peaceful so Who is it that's evaluating the states of my mind? What is the I that is identifying with and reacting to the states of my mind or your mind, and that mental state is connected with the state of the gross physical body

36:18 Today i feel like going swimming so then the gross physical body goes to the ocean or lake or swimming pool and swims. Where today i feel like playing golf you know so real question is what does the eye, that is perceiving these different states in the mind and interacting with the gross physical body to do things. Now, one problem with the gross physical body is it's temporary. It has a beginning and end. And at some point one may feel like doing something but won't be able to do it

37:06 And at a certain point, one won't even be able to perceive any sensation from the gross physical body. But the mental body will still be there and what happens is that at time of death, the mental body is in a certain state as a result of the accumulation of all its activities during period of association with a particular gross physical body, and that mental state will determine the next gross physical body that one gets. So it's kind of important to keep in mind not just the soul but conscious self and the gross physical body. One has to pay attention to the state

38:03 in the mental body as well, because that will determine what our next gross physical body is. Now if the mind comes to the proper conclusion and begins to identify the self as the soul not that I have a soul, but I am a soul. I am being of pure consciousness. Sometimes they use the word soul but for many people well that's religion and that requires belief. I don't believe it. I'm not a believer or I haven't... But really conscious self describes it better because conscious experience

38:54 The experience that I'm an individual, personal conscious being is not a matter of faith or belief. It's the most obvious real fact of our existence without which we wouldn't have any possibility of say like hearing or viewing this podcast and having a discussion and having it make some impact on our lives that wouldn't be possible without consciousness, which isn't a matter of belief. It's our most real factual experiential subject so if one comes to that state then you get out of that cycle taking on one temporary material form after another

39:51 Yes it's a big subject for an entire western paradigm to ignore but somehow they managed to do it now i did find. A quote attributed to you from the book attribute to hinduism by sushi ma london and i don't have the books i just had to trust was accurate but the quote is, True ancient Hindu cosmology was dismantled by Europeans in order to bring it into line with the biblical timescale. This happened during the 18th and 19th centuries, they tried to fit everything within 5000 years

40:27 Well this sort of stuff always fascinates me how such a big body of work could be ignored and kind of erased or suppressed at least for the western mind. Can you talk to us about that period of history in the processes and techniques used to dismantle it yes, and they use the dismantled not only the indian cosmology during the colonial period but they gradually used it to undermine the dominant cosmology in the West. They had influence not only on what happened in colonial India, but what happened in their own countries

41:18 Like Darwin, he dismantled the idea that there's some original creator of the forms of living things. He came up with a theory that explained things in terms of material actions and interactions only without any guiding intelligence or any non-material substance so the same forces operated in different ways. But in terms of archaeology, there are two groups basically, the archaeology singular group and the archaeology plural group. In other words, there's one group

42:13 that believes there's one objective scientific science of archeology and we've got all the answers, the ones that we haven't completely answered yet. We're going to answer in the future through future research and that's all there is to it just accept it so that's one group and they're not the only group in archaeology. There was another group that I call the archaeology plural group, Archaeologies. That accepts that modern Western scientific archaeology with its concepts and conclusions is one archaeology but they understand that

43:05 The supporters of that one scientific objective, archeology used their positions to suppress alternative archeologies. Alternative explanations of human origins and antiquity that were part of the worldviews of areas in the world like India Asia africa and other words traditional knowledge systems from different cultures and they respect those world views as having their own.

43:47 explanations of human origins. So according to them, there can be an Australian Aboriginal archeology based on the assumptions of those people and Native American archeology in other words there could be various archeologies and perspectives and they tend to be not accepting everything I say, but they believe that I have a right to be part of the discourse in these disciplines representing another knowledge tradition which has to be if we're gonna compare our knowledge systems. Well that's another thing

44:39 but they don't really like the idea that the only archaeology to be considered would be the Western scientific objective archaeology that imposes its view on everyone else by trying to undermine and reject alternative cosmologies. So, there actually quite a number of scientists, archeologists in that camp. And say like the World Archeological Congress one of the world's largest international organizations of archaeologists their professional journal for their society is called Archaeologies and they say in there

45:40 If you look in an academic journal, they usually have some notice of what kinds of submissions that they would consider printing. And I say we openly welcome contributions from non-Western epistemologies and ontologies so there is a group scientists, archaeologists who are very much in the archeology singular camp. But there are also practically equal number of those in the plural camp that are willing to consider alternatives. Yes and the reason the Vedic cosmology paradigm

46:31 paradigm can incorporate all the data of forbidden archaeology and that the dates don't even really matter that much is because from that perspective the human vehicle has always been here it's just part of this system so there isn't this evolution thing where we call out of the mark its chest. The human vehicle is the vehicle that can bring you back to source. You know, I guess all conscious beings are vehicles for consciousness but the one that is special as the human because that's where i guess the free will the choices can allow that bridge to exist to get you back. Do the top so yeah people are hung up on a date and don't worry about it too much like he's pointing out the problems in this official western paradigm which we know there are many and when u think about it the abrahamic religions either the loudest they're definitely the loudest but when you look at every other culture outside of that

47:27 They tend to come to really similar conclusions they tend to say hey the source of me the energy that is feeling this battery it comes from somewhere else and we return to that source in there are spirits you can interact with them some men and. Conversate with a lot of cultures just live in nature on adulterated these are the conclusions they come too so to me thats like probably the most right is finding something that Jives with all that stuff outside of the abrahamic world view yes. I'd like to return to the first point that you made about evolution i think darwin had a good insight

48:12 he thought there must be something about the human organism or any organism that is developing, that is gradually becoming more fit in a way that helps it survive and achieve perhaps ultimately some ideal state. So His intuition, I believe was correct that there is something associated with the human organism that is developing in a systematic way. But he had the wrong idea about what it is that's developing. He thought it is the gross physical body that is

49:08 modifying itself and changing. Although he had no idea what the mechanism was, he didn't have any idea like that so according to the Vedic cosmology there is something that is associated with the organism that is developing in an evolutionary way I think modern materialistic science has hijacked the word evolution and given it its own meaning, and ignores other possible meanings of the term. What's evolving is actually the conscious self if it's at a certain state of mental development where it's totally absorbed in matter

50:01 it will be given a certain type of material bodily vehicle, probably in some of the plant or animal species. But from there it gradually makes progress lifetime after lifetime, taking on a different type of gross physical body until it gets to the human platform. Whereas you say it has free will to get out of that whole cycle limiting cycle with birth and death which is characterized by the Sanskrit word samsara, the cycle of birth and death

50:43 So a lot of the world's traditions have concepts similar to that. So I think darwin had good intuition but he didn't have the complete picture it's like if you get up i can't build a computer for example and somehow or other during transit to you, parts of the kit are missing. They fall out of the box and you lose the instruction manual so you wind up with an incomplete set of parts and you try to put them together on your own without the instruction book, you're never going to get a working

51:36 Computer out of it so that's what happened with darwin because i didn't have a complete set of concepts to deal with them just dealing with the limited set of ideas he had. He tried to come up with some evolutionary explanation but really never succeeded in doing it, and people are left with a very incomplete understanding of what evolution means, and therefore Society is a mess. Yeah i mean that's pretty maybe charitable view of course i don't know how much of the damage done by darwinism should be attributed to darwin himself versus how the whole system just grabbed it and latched on do it and perpetuated at way beyond his timeline me can really be responsible for that but,

52:34 If we fast forward to current day, what is the deal with science's need to cling to Darwinism and materialism despite the ever-growing evidence to the contrary? Why will they not let it go? The capitalist system almost seems afraid of consciousness or anything spiritual unless it's Christianity for some reason. Maybe they found a way to make Christianity and consumerism compatible but why do you think they cling so much to darwinism and material ism and have such a fear of paradigms that include consciousness or spirituality. Will the world in which we exist because most of what we just had a dual function,

53:17 One is, as you pointed out earlier in the show to give us an alternative reality that is not based on harmonious loving cooperation among all conscious beings. Beings of pure consciousness It means competing to dominate, control and exploit matter and the living entities who are in the world of matter and are operating in vehicles made of matter. If that view becomes dominant which it is today then what we find is that people's goals automatically become

54:04 Their goals are values objectives of life become very materialistic so that people think the main purpose of life is to be calm. A good producer and consumer of material things that's how we judge our status in the world. How many materials how much of the material resources, where are you going to control dominate exploit and then whole process has resulted in a society arranged to facilitate that

54:45 Now how religion can be integrated into that is, well if the goal of life is to dominate control and exploit you can do it with God or without God. You can just do it on its own or you could say, God please help me dominate control and exploit in competition with others individually and collectively help me win Yeah yeah what did you get my share so you can do it either just with ordinary politics or you can add a religious element in there which is transaction on you could say. That makes a lot of sense and no dare i say conspiracy i could use another term maybe just more neutral like incentive but any,

55:41 point along the last hundred and fifty years where there is a fork in the road to incorporate consciousness and go that direction or just stick with consumerist materialism. They're gonna go that way and those little decision points stack up to the big problem we have now and it is interesting that specially found out what the ebstein stuff but it goes way beyond that The folks making the money from rampant consumerism at the very top a lot of times that money does filter down to, the scientific disciplines in the scientist themselves who are tasked with. Be the ones to break out of that paradigm of material ism and their financially incentivize do not do that kind of yeah i think there is an element of

56:34 dare we say conspiracy in it. And if you look, in particular at the chapter on forbidden archeology which I deal with the operations of the Rockefeller Foundation and China and their funding of other research into Beijing Man who is a big so-called missing link that helped establish their theory What the Rockefeller Foundation officials said about their work and how the archaeology aspect of it fit into a larger picture is that they said in an ideal world, money wouldn't have any influence on ideas. But as you were saying

57:27 The wealth that's generated by the process of consumerism, the idea that we have to be either or both good material producers and consumers is a dominating idea. And the wealth that's generated by that process flows in an unequal way into various pockets. Like it either goes to that top 1% or some goes through others, everybody's got a piece of the action you could say, some bigger than others and they use that wealth

58:15 to keep the system going because the current dominant system, dominant worldview, the materialistic worldview which as I said may be combined with religion very easily has constructed various institutions. Political financial social institutions military everything that support that system and keep it intact. And the Rockefeller Foundation said, in an ideal world the influence of ideas would have no relationship to money but that's not the world we live in so wealthy individuals sometimes create foundations or other types of organizations whose

59:17 to intervene in the process of knowledge generation in such a way as to keep intact the system that they're profiting from and benefiting from. So, in the early 20th century, The Rockefeller Foundation was funding research into genetics, research into astronomy, research into archaeology And the Rockefeller Foundation officials said at that time, that it appears to be we're just throwing our money in all kinds of different directions. But really its one program. Said the goal is to influence human behavior, social behavior as such a way as to develop beneficial control

1:00:17 controlled by whom for whose benefit. Yeah, it's kind of... So they said there's a relationship between all these things. If you're gonna control something as complex as human behavior, the first thing is you have to understand how behavior operates in simple animals, simple life forms and to understand that, you have to understand genetics and physics and all that And the larger issue behind that is the origin of the universe and what it actually is, astrophysics. Then gradually we can learn how to establish beneficial social control over

1:01:10 Now that just may be a cover for something else. But to be charitable, you say okay they want to establish peace in the world prosperity another way to look at it is well if the benefit those who are now benefiting most from the whole system and to facilitate whatever they wanna do which we may not be publicizing so much. But that kind of thing does exist, now these days if you look at the Rockefeller Foundation they're advertising themselves as working on social welfare projects supporting African women and starting small businesses and things like that but I think early in the 20th century

1:02:08 they were perhaps being more direct about what it is they were trying to accomplish, beneficial social control over humanity at large. And they were very open about how they were doing it and this was organized... John D Rockefeller himself was a Baptist, a very committed Baptist and initially the Rockefeller Foundation was set up to distribute funding to charitable and educational projects of the Baptist Church in the United States, and around the world. And when John D. Rockefeller Jr took over from his father,

1:03:02 he shifted the emphasis to science. And he wrote his father, and we have to be careful about associating ourselves with these Baptist fundamentalists who have ideas that are very much out of line with modernist thinking. So he was the one who shifted the emphasis to this scientific Approach which had big implications for world views and now they don't talk about that so much but it came out very openly. Add that earlier period,

1:03:45 Yes i imagine that's where the behavior is come in and you like you talked about if u wanna control you gotta determine what a simple animals do well they work to meet their needs so if you make it really hard for people to meet their basic needs, never have time for anything else so you create a scarcity society and. As we're looking for a place to land this thing, obviously you've done some great work that puts huge cracks in the false paradigm we've been raised with as dogmatic fact. And the process is slow but you've been vindicated more and more with each passing year I'm curious what you might say is the most important message you'd want people to be left with as they contemplate these cases and the full scope of the work you've done?

1:04:32 The most important thing that I would get across is that we should appreciate that we're in a consciousness-based universe because ultimately, we're beings of pure consciousness. I think that is the most important thing I would leave people with and our sense of identity is very important because from our sense of identity, we develop our goals, purposes of life or objectives more or less automatically. If we allow ourselves if we allow those who now control our scientific institutions and educational institutions to impose upon us a sense of reality

1:05:32 I'm a purely material being, on the machine made of molecules in competition with other machines made of molecules. If we accept that definition of ourselves, that sense of identity then very naturally our goals and objectives in life are gonna become material and will be subject to the control of people who are now at the apex of that system, material production and consumption. If we have a different sense of identity I'm being in pure consciousness you're being in pure consciousness

1:06:20 There's no need to divide ourselves up into competing groups on the basis of superficial characters of nationalism, race, religion and so forth. So if we have that sense of identity then it becomes to try to satisfy our material needs in the most simple, natural and efficient and fair way possible then that sense of identity of being a being of consciousness in a consciousness-based universe means more unity, less conflict, no conflicts.

1:07:11 exploitation of material resources, everything is sustainable and fair not unfair. So that would be the most important thing I would leave people with and we'll be talking about these things later this year at a conference in Bosnia of all places, the Bosnian pyramid. You know some information can be found about that on my website so i'm kind of looking forward to that. Yeah and your website for people is m cream dot com correct that's correct, no all of my books are available there or serve other places but most beneficial for me personally as if people get them from my website yeah

1:08:07 well i would love to get out of the bosnian pyramid sometime i don't know if it's gonna be this year but i hope some people are inspired to follow you out there for that, what does been great really wise words i appreciate your insights and just a corpus of material you put out there you definitely left a mark on your field And like I said, this probably sets a record for the longest gap between two interviews that I've ever had. And it kind of seems symbolically relevant that it would be with you covering this sort of work. So again, I appreciate what you do and take care out there well, and I wish you all success another 12 years or more for your show. Thank you. We'll talk again then. All right. Have a good one. Bye

1:09:03 All right the power of christ compels you people the old do to karma dosa himself for those unfamiliar with his devotional name. Such an interesting guy who really did put is mark on the world and put some cracks in the big paradigm allies in his own way, I feel like the only real issue i've ever had with his work is the dating but he answers that criticism really well he's right. If these dating tools are the danger gonna hang me entire human story on, then explain the results of hundreds of objects and artifacts and remnants of bones in footprints that fall

1:09:42 Outside of the timeline with your tools you either have to say. The story is wrong or the dating is wrong and the story is based on the dating so it's a very clever way to back this system into a corner actually consider his work to be pretty forty in actually not exactly the same subject matter maybe not as epic and scale but I do see these spirit of charles for in his work, So i looked at my outline for some of the stuff that we didn't get to in the conversation. I don't think we talked about bigfoot it all but he does have some material on it or here they them i don't know, bigfoot might be the only real day them irrelevant really just writes about how there are hundreds of footprints and hair samples and

1:10:36 It really becomes unlikely that they're all hoaxes but i would have been more interested to hear about. The role of bigfoot in the vedic cosmology contacts but i had a choose and i thought you are pose was the more interesting thing, end the moment because we do know The broad strokes of flying machines in the text but i just thought someone who actually knew the vatic tax to the degree that he does. What are articulated a little bit better than what we usually hear and just kinda get into it a little bit better detail any dead so good stuff,

1:11:15 I didn't mark my outline up like i usually do to remind myself what we talked about exactly i don't think we mentioned the sunken city. Off the coast of cuba at all either did we it's an easy thing to find pictures of i figured that, Maybe it would be part of the road or maybe wouldn't really look that epic but it is wild so its about two hundred and seventy miles from them in a road. Which makes it more interesting to have underwater city ruins into locations over two hundred and seventy miles But if you look at these images of the sunken city off the coast of Cuba, these are legit pyramids and square structures. There's no way you could squint and say that it's natural. Bimmy Road I guess is slightly less conclusive but this really blew me away

1:12:09 And i also would say that i never say never and obviously made a little joke about it there at the end of the interview but. It is rare to have a conversation that seems so likely to be the last one i will have with someone, it's a bit of an odd feeling but i certainly kept in mind throughout wanted to make sure that i Set everything i would wanna say that i paid my respects and gave me flowers in all the different phrases like you used to say the same thing michael cream is a legend. And the vatican cosmology is very interesting it is a whole nother layer of what makes an interview with him so interesting, and im obviously a lot more non committal than he has to any paradigm like that but his based on really ancient text that seem to be a better match for what archaeologists find

1:13:00 You have to put yourself in a box it should probably at least be a box that can handle the widest range of available evidence right. To say that humans have always been here and then man is baked right into the form and function of this material existence. Is pretty broad it might not be a hundred percent right but i like it because its not going to break under the weight of new discoveries as opposed to western archaeology which is trying to arrogantly present human history without a spiritual component which is a bad foundation start on Then they constantly have to shift everything around because they're trying to be far too specific about the far distant past based on a few discoveries in the ground. That assume there is a what globally uniform layer of rock that can reliably be dated to the tune of millions of years without ever having the ability to be verified,

1:13:56 It is a bad approach to understanding the total picture of humanity but it's great for creating an industry in a chorus line of career archaeologists making micro discoveries and slight adjustments that appear to be significant enough to bring in some new grant money. Amen! But good show, the second hour for members got into the time frame we're always talking about that changed everything from late 1800s to 1920s You talked about how open and based in curiosity the research of everything used to be including the paranormal and how it all changed. We talked about a few other cases from the book obviously some other elements of vedic cosmology,

1:14:41 Get in there the second hour always goes deeper and gets weirder treat yourself and feel good about keeping ad free infotainment alive. Now in higher side news i did take the credit card requirement off of the plus members trial It was a weird wild thing to do and it was pretty big success after just one announcement on one episode hundreds of people came to check it out which i appreciate that is what i want, i really wanna our guest to be heard in the show to be enjoyed. I do think its valuable and important i just have to get paid for doing my job somewhere somehow so i eliminated a friction points two trying it out

1:15:27 And people responded in kind and it's a beautiful thing. I did make two mistakes though rolling it out, even though we tested the custom RSS feed that I'm always talking about that gets you past having to put in your username and password you can just enjoy the show with this customized link It's a great system but we rolled this thing out and me in the two guys who handle the website can only really test our own devices and it worked on our devices but i did not work for everyone. The validation of the feed i guess was triggered somewhere, end the chain of the sign up process that got altered when we remove the credit card from it so some people.

1:16:08 took me up on the trial and then couldn't get that rss feed to work and it is a bummer cuz you want everything to work in everyone have a great experience. And i think about maybe a third of the people who tried to plug that feed in couldn't get it to work, i did hear from a few people who said they enjoyed going through the archive enough that they actually completed the signup process and then not same link did work so thank you for figuring out working with me for those who dead But that was an unforced error sorry about that i know that i make my own life harder trying to actually have an independent infrastructure while so many other people just rely on patreon or put it in the hands of sub stack but i think. Maintaining something independent is important you never know when the next big thing might happen its dangerous to talk about and if we're coming up on a war well,

1:17:05 Lot of people don't like unpopular opinions about war and more time is when the screws get a little tighter so i wanna be scrambling to find a solution in crisis mode or. Be afraid to talk about something that seems like a truth or expose ally just because i feel like im shackled to a platform that really does get to control what i say even if i was at free cell, This is what we deal with you know but the second error i made was that if i was super strategic and dialed in i would have made sure another show released within that seven day window. And it was supposed to be this solo show that i've been working on but my outline and, the book i was covering it got so long i was looking around for it got so long that

1:17:58 I had to record it over two days. It's over four hours so far of raw recording, so i'm going to try and get that down closer to two and just get this bad boy out! But...I thought I would get that out faster than I did So I was planning to launch that at the time but I just had to take a pause on it, record a show And get some interviews back into the pipeline But we are gonna get this done and i'm getting it out very soon so that was just another strategic blunder but really i just try to make the best shows i can and then i hope people sign up because they want more of it not because i did the right marketing things. Do convince them to be members if the content itself isn't convincing them,

1:18:45 There's not much more to talk about that my logic but again the marketing people would tell me that i'm wrong and there is a science to it and its all been mapped out in people can be played like a fiddle. And i should just use all those tools but, i think we're different i think were her bread different as they say oh well now moving on to the last show that did launch with that removal of the trial or removal of the credit card from the trial Second return of david ike you know i love him he is the goat as the kids say you really is in my mind a figure who has been. Most on point and at the top of the conspiracy culture for the longest amount of time, and it's been validated more and more as time has gone on i would say i was a huge jim mars fan to you know there are some weird scientology questions about jim marz but

1:19:44 On the substance of his books and his general charm and demeanor. He was a character and i think he was one of the good ones in david is kinda my last man standing, i know we retreaded some ground in this interview from the last interview i know that it gets a little overly focused on calling out figures of mainstream alternative media or engineer alt media But anyone in my position should be giving him his due. Much like Michael Cremo, but clearly our people get it if everyone doesn't that interview got a 4 point 8 so great to see it up on the top shelf

1:20:24 Give me engineered all media stuff coming up again i don't want to sound like david and even i am just bitching because we got passed out by people who became more popular, i'm totally comfortable right where i am i recently actually saw some stack piece that. Resonate with me a lot and kinda got to this point but it's that i don't want a million followers anymore the influencer age is over welcome to the new era of authenticity and i do love that. When i put myself in the shoes of a consumer which i am when im not working, i'm so overwhelmed by the options all the new stuff it is never ending fire hose obviously plays a role cuz you have these new videos that

1:21:07 It takes a moment to even recognize that it's an AI generated scripts narrated with an AI voice over AI B roll and that's happy you too now but all this stuff just makes me. Kind of gravitate back to the same old people that i've enjoyed following for a long time and im glad that i think i'm in that position for a lot of other people but. I got my movie reviews guy i got my gaming podcast my cultural commentators and, i got my preferred comics you know we are in age with more and more content that is shallow consumable just inauthentic media

1:21:49 That for me personally it's harder than ever to get in. To my inner circle of things that i actually consume on the regular so i keep that pretty guarded and i think this is a sentiment that has becoming more widespread And there's a weird irony there i guess is what im saying with more content but actually no more content being out there but yet you consume a tighter. Circle the wagons inner circle of people that you like and trust so i am fine you know i'm just saying this to say i'm, just an observer of the situation and i do find it very odd that podcast that tend to just wanna have everyone on once

1:22:33 Will not have david ike on a lot of these shows will have someone on who's wild and crazy just because they know it's gonna get numbers well, did i gets numbers so does this weird to me and i'm willing to let him vent on that issue but we folded in enough actual wisdom in there too that. Whatever clearly i can stop qualifying it's a four point eight very good and glad to see that people. Respect his place in the field and rated him accordingly now let's tackle that meet up calendar Next on the list sunday april nineteenth that's today there is a pop up in vancouver at the alibi room and then how sad we don't really have a thc four twenty event and it's a little too late to make one but. Next sunday april twenty sixth saint paul minnesota black stack brewing,

1:23:26 Then also april twenty six los angeles california at the trails cafe. Monday the twenty seventh of april aqua new zealand gail brad's ale house and then we'll also throw out that i may first people are getting together at the spinal oklahoma camp copperhead, can't copperhead did i say that right on how to set again just for good measure but There's also another one on may first it's can i new hampshire the nudists dinner at poor house barbecue. Love that were neglected group right wide range of interest and behaviors

1:24:06 Go to higher side of meetups.com, to RSVP for any of these events is just polite get more info on the event, the times all this stuff or just make your own if you didn't hear about one near you free and open to anyone who likes defined like-minded locals an important thing in our day and age Well, I'm getting out of here. A true honor to talk to Michael Cremo again at this stage in his life still releasing new books a national treasure if there ever was one i've done my part your move out-of-place artifact ignores academic gatekeepers and controllers of official canon Your fucking move I see you sitting in traffic And you look so stuck no sense of adventure

1:24:57 Just a routine fuck They can diagnose depression But don't know why you're bored Mystery comes knocking but you don't answer the door No, there are lights in the sky Not found on any map Creatures deep in the forest That no ranger has tagged There are things in the ocean You won't see from the land Life's under no obligation to make sure you understand I'm told the truth is out there When you get past the lies It comes when you least expect it And it wears a disguise It'll tell you everything just for goof Can't take any pictures, won't have any proof

1:26:04 And so I watch you live like you never wanted it A lost soul that's forgotten what really haunted is But just let me say This is a horrible approach to seizing the day There are things you can know That you can't even think No doctor has medicine Like the shaman's next drink

1:26:42 Sleep is never better than inside of the dream Who promised you anything would be as it seems I'm told the truth is out there when you get past the lies It comes when you least expect and it wears a disguise It'll tell you everything, everything Just for... Can't take any pictures Won't have