Jason Louv | John Dee, Enochian Magick, & The Empire Of Angels

00:04 The planet's puppet masters almost surely have a plan There clearly may be something there beyond the realm of man Until we've thoroughly tested every last closed chested view Find the more you think you know, unless you really do Where would be without THC? We know they're lying to us just don't know what degree Where would we be without THC? The eyesight checks show

00:49 Gregor Wood and Company Alright, Hiresite Chatters. The further we go down the more convinced I am that magic remains the missing spoke in the wheel of not only history but life itself because you can't properly assess the Elizabethan era, the founding of America, the rocketry program, the tech revolution and many other aspects of what got us here today without understanding that magic played a major role Not to mention the important role of magic in the east as well as cultures that weren't trampled by the cross, because we still see magical thinking and belief systems in most hard-to-reach corners on this island earth. All of this speaks to a body of knowledge and thought I'd like better understand, as well as people who explored it to its deepest sometimes darkest depths

01:43 Of these figures, there are few if any that have been more impactful than Queen Elizabeth I's court advisor and astrologer John Dee. As most of the magical characters and secret orders we know today have been heavily influenced by the Enochian system that Dee and Ed Kelly were handed down from on high And luckily today's guest Jason Louv knows quite a bit about this situation as he has just released a massive book entitled John D. and the Empire of Angels, Anarchian Magic and the Occult Roots of the Modern World which clocks in at just over 500 pages when it's all said and done It's a wonder Jason hasn't been here before as he has definitely been a popular guy in The Magical Resurgence for quite some time having written several other books with titles like Generation Hex Hyperworlds Underworlds and Monsanto vs The World

02:31 He also runs the popular website Ultraculture.org and also teaches classes on magic and spirituality at Magic.me A modern magus of the great work, an esoteric adventure extraordinaire and a glass pyramid of podcast guests Jason Louv welcome to The Higher Side What's up man how you doing? Can't complain man really psyched to do this Me too I don't know where you've been all my life, but your work definitely is just the sort of stuff i like to get into. Not only did I love this book on Dee, but I've heard you talking about it a lot lately on Tinfoil Hat and Rune Soup in particular and you really seem to have an impressive grasp on things that I find to be quite slippery! And to get us started here since this is our first time tell us a bit about your path to now because just from what I've heard it seems like a really impressive adventure

03:23 Yeah, it's been an adventure. Let's see... So I started investigating magic and spirituality two decades ago now while working as a full-time journalist, as a writer, copywriter… I've also spent that time investigating the world's esoteric and spiritual traditions in a very gonzo fashion if you will where I've tried to immerse myself and learn about all of these things. So Sufism, Tantra, Yoga, Esoteric Yoga, Buddhism, Hinduism...I was initiated as a shaman in the foothills of the Himalayas and Nepal certainly Western magic Hermeticism NLP Masonry

04:06 It's for me the most interesting stuff out there because these are the traditions that have been handed down for millennia of our ancestors. the conclusions they came to about what life is, how it's best lived and what they wanted to pass on to further generations. So for me it's kind of like well why would I be interested in anything else? In a way or certainly at least why would I not be interested in that and this is all stuff that has been hidden for a long long time particularly in our culture and has been reserved For an elite and now because of the internet all that information is coming out so i really spent that time not only learning everything that i could but also.

04:51 working to get that information out to the public just like for instance Timothy Leary did with consciousness raising and you know I've tried to do that with magic and bring that stuff out to the public which has been quite controversial at times but i truly believe that people should have control over their own lives and people should be reminded that they have a say in reality, and that they are powerful. Right? And not powerless our culture tells people in every way that it can that they're powerless and we can get conspiratorial perhaps about why that is but I'm not a conspiracy theorist so I also think that it tends to be because people like to choose the path of least resistance but of course we all know that listeners like to take the higher side

05:40 Not to be cheesy, but I think we're all on the same page with that where we're all interested in not only what are the hidden occulted aspects of reality. But how can we participate? How can we dig deeper into reality and live wider more expanded more meaningful more alive lives lives. That's my interest in it. Very cool, man! Yeah, it's just like such a wild ride you've been on the Golden Dawn Hermeticism Freemasonry Tantra just all of these bodies of work are so deep and so complex that even to get into one of them is a difficult challenge and that Nepal chapter Of course is intriguing I gotta ask So when you were shamaning it up in the Nepal Tibetan area did they show you the tunnels to the inner earth or no?

06:31 That would be classified, but I did go up into you know. I made it up 13 thousand feet into the Himalayas as I went to the shrine where? Ram meditated at the beginning of the Ramana war for the cult strength to go into battle And you know I've seen some crazy things over there I saw the birthplace of not just temples too But the birthplace of the god Shiva the God Ganesh and then hanging out with shamans and a core ease and Naga babas and noth Baba's and you know, I'll tell you they definitely showed me the tunnels to the internal world The inner world of consciousness will tell you that much right on right on Well if I ever make a trip over there Maybe I can get that secret handshake from ya before. I go but to get into the new book You know my entry into magic type material has been via the conspiracy world which can be a bit sensationalist but

07:25 It showed me enough to know that the elite have found these esoteric subjects very important behind closed doors. And the most commonly cited example is always, well John Dee was Queen Elizabeth's right-hand man but not a lot of people can take it deeper than that so I was really psyched when this book came out because you certainly can and maybe talk to us about Dee and the context for who he was before we get to that provocative Enochian chapter in The Big Story So yeah, one of the crazy things about being a journalist and then writing a book on history And going back to the actual historical records is the truth is always stranger than the weirdest conspiracy theories right? and it's historically validated and you can just read that and it's just sitting in libraries and in academic databases in text that nobody reads

08:14 But it's so bizarre, right? So you have to think of D as like the Stephen Hawking of his day. Right He was the biggest scientific prodigy of Elizabethan England. So we're talking 1500s he was a mathematical genius. He spent his academic career learning in England and in Europe and studying everything right this was a period of history where it was still possible to know everything in the sense that you could read all of the printed information that was available at that time because we were just coming out of the dark ages. And as an academic, as a thinker, as an intellectual D was interested in understanding the big picture. He wanted to know everything he wanted to know the mind of God and so do that. He studied mathematics and astrology and astronomy and optics and naval science hermeticism and the occults. And for him that was all one thing it was just how does reality work?

09:10 if we're all living in the mind of God as the Hermeticist would say then how does God's mind work and if we can understand how God's mind works could we perhaps work with it, could we perhaps go along with the current of reality instead of against it and do things that would appear to people who didn't have that knowledge to be magical right so that's really the place that he was coming from but he also was a government servant. In England he worked as part of Elizabeth's court in which capacity he was constantly called on to defend Elizabeth against attacks by rival sorcerers. He was often called on to draw up astrological charts for timings for various royal events including Elizabeth's coronation,

09:55 responsible for creating the idea of the British Empire. He actually coined the phrase, British Empire or he claimed rather that it was actually given to him by an angel in a cult session which is something they don't tell you in high school and Not only came up with this idea, but he laid out all the schematics necessary for turning England which at that point was a poor Developing world country into the greatest Empire the world has ever known the empire on which the Sun never sets Which controlled over 1⁄4 of the planet at its height and was called the empire on which the Sun never sets because the sun Was always shining somewhere within the Empire's domains

10:35 He came up with all of the schematics necessary to do that and push Elizabeth for English colonization of America and the New World in kind of a cold war with Spain where he said that if England controls the new world before Spain and the Catholic bloc does, then not only do we win economically but we win spiritually in as much as were able to then set the destiny of the planet going forward which they did. right? That's what happened. Spain's economic might was broken very quickly, partly because of the English defeat of the Spanish Armada which D also had a hand in and many said he might have done by magic so he was right there in the thick of it He also brought knowledge of mathematics to the English public for the first time Geometry nobody knew about any stuff he established a scientific library

11:25 in England. It was five times the size of Oxford and Cambridge, and he really laid the foundation for modern science to occur by educating the next generation in the STEM track as it were which hadn't been available in England up till then. He made science He made it possible he provided the books and he taught people everything that you do so that the next generation of a generation after that could create modern science as we know it so. He's right there he is the architect of the modern world and that's before he spent ten years dedicating his time to speaking to angels. So I always say that, you know if john D is kind of like the Stephen Hawking of his day You have to imagine what it would have been like if stephen hawking at the age of 50 at the height of his career having all the accolades of

12:13 Society and the government and the ears of everyone in power said well, you know what? I'm gonna take a break And I'm gonna dedicate the next 10 years of my scientific career to smoking DMT and contacting aliens Right. That's kind of what the deal was Yeah man that is a great overview and now this is bit of attention but you write a lot about the history and things going on that maybe drew the queen's attention away from d at times on his trajectory for example alchemy which is a buzzword of always been intrigued by but your right about the alchemy pursuits in that day, let these guys thomas charnock and cornelius dale annoy.

12:52 were players in it and I thought this was interesting. You say Cornelius actually promised the royal court he could produce the equivalent of 7.9 million in gold, diamonds and precious stones per year which just makes me wonder do you really make those kind of claims to the queen if alchemy is the myth that's portrayed to be? Well, it was before they had the Internet. You can't blame them. But this is a very human story in a way where alchemy was a big deal at the time I mean there wasn't no chemical economic arms race going on so what's the sales pitch of Alchemy right? It's that you can take base metals and turn them into gold

13:32 that there's some chemical process that hasn't yet been discovered by which you can transmute metals. The idea that they had at that time was that all metals are different permutations of one prima materia, right? There must be some underlying metal behind all metals and if you just submit a metal to the right chemical processes, you could change it into another metal. Now we know this isn't possible at least not with the technology they had at that time It was a false scientific theory but they didn't know that all they knew is they thought it might be possible They didn't know how to do it but that didn't necessarily mean somebody didn't know how to do it

14:08 or that they could discover the secrets. So at this time everyone in Europe was in an arms race to figure out alchemy because whoever could get that secret then would have an economic advantage over all the other countries so what ended up happening is, at the time we had a lot of roving alchemists people who claimed they could do it shifty characters... They would show up to royal courts-in this case Elizabeth's court and say oh yeah I can figure that out no problem Give me $10 million and set me up with a laboratory, and I'll figure that out for you in a few months. No problem." And then a few months go by they don't hear anything, and then they go knock on the door of this alchemist in question, and they vacated the premises right? This happened a lot now D was also interested in alchemy but he was interested in it for the real reasons in the sense that He thought that it was about the human soul so it's not about turning lead into gold

15:04 although he investigated that also it's about turning an unawakened and confused and scattered and powerless human being into an enlightened sage, an awakened person. That's what alchemy really is and what alchemy still is. And so D was always underpaid, he was always looking for money, so he was always trying to interest the monarchs of England in Europe in the idea of true alchemy and would show up to their courts and they would say can you make us gold And he would say, no. But I can give you wisdom and understanding and enlightenment and spiritual realization. And they would show him the door right now. Not so interesting. Right? Man. And you mentioned earlier

15:44 him defending the queen from rival sorcerers you write about a lot of little threads going on at the time d had a long time nemesis and john presto all, and france was pushing the visions of their guy no stradamus. Can you call this sort of in occult cold war it all seems just so foreign to today's landscape i mean how public was this isa teric or mystical element of the power structure back then Well, is it really that foreign to today's landscape? I'm not sure it is. But here's the deal with this right magic in some senses is really about controlling the narrative of reality right so let's consider astrology or prophecy now whatever you think of astrology or prophecy You know they're not scientifically valid but consider these things from a propaganda angle if you can draw charts up on

16:36 on somebody and say, well Queen Elizabeth is going to die in five years. And then that gets publicized while that affects public perception and if you can affect public perception and reframe how people are looking at reality well You've just done magic because then that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy for people right? Yeah. And it's the same today I mean this is what the media does This is what mass marketing and advertising doesn't know this very well because I used to work on Madison Avenue Right It's like I know those techniques dark arts. I use them for good, right? But that's all magic. I see all of this is magic and I define magic as a spontaneously emergent property of how human beings make meaning and attempt to make meaning for other people so you have to imagine that at this time there was a hot war between Catholicism and Protestantism

17:27 the Catholic bloc in Europe and then the Protestant countries, meaning England which had just gone Anglican. Henry VIII had exited from the Catholic Church. The Netherlands were also Protestant at this time and these countries were like the Rebel Alliance in Star Wars trying to survive the oncoming punishing efforts of the Catholic evil empire. And they were also competing to see who was going to control the new world because whoever got that, got all the resources of the new world and then would have a permanent economic advantage going forward. And Dee was the one who really figured that out at the same time while this hot war was going on this economic and political military war where there were military skirmishes there was also the occult war and that was not just in the propaganda department but in the sense that the Catholic and Protestant sides both employed

18:22 Straight out the cultists people who are doing curses people over during protective magic people who were. For instance, the Catholic sorcerers were always making voodoo dolls of Elizabeth. And we shouldn't forget that the whole thing of saints and fetishes and icons and prayers to get specific effects...to get specific things done all that is hard-baked into Catholicism. That's something that we see for instance in perhaps the African traditional religions they were influenced by Catholicism like Voudan where that's made very apparent but but it's in mainstream, well not mainstream. But it's certainly part of Catholicism and the people have always been doing that type of thing behind closed doors in the catholic world always has magical technology baked into it. But protestantism does as well when you think about The emphasis on the whole sales pitch of Protestantism really is a cult in the sense that the sales pitch of Protestantism and all of its branches Is that you don't need the intermediary of this

19:22 the church and this is dialed up less in Anglicanism and more in things like Presbyterianism and the Baptist but the whole idea of Protestantism is make contact with Christ and God on your own with the implication being that they'll be on your side, and reality will then be on your side because you're directly following what it says in the Bible. You're following the script That's what the Catholics didn't do. They didn't rely on textual primacy, the Protestants did so these are two competing metamagical systems as William Burroughs might have put it It's two people with two very different ideas about how to get God on your good side

20:01 Fighting and one of the ways they're fighting is through straight-out ritual and sorcery And I'm not convinced that ever stopped by the way mm-hmm to be perfectly frank Well touche, that was gonna be my next question because of course we can broaden magic out to mean influence and propaganda and marketing it's definitely in those soups But in a traditional sense, I'm curious if you think we still have that same type of esoteric thread amongst today's elite. I don't think George Bush went through skull and bones without getting some of it. I think it is interesting that Michael Bloomberg is behind the Mithraeum project in London there might be something there but the threads that suggest today's public facing world leaders

20:43 are into ceremonial magic or direct spiritual contact, I guess they seem pretty thin on the surface. Are they just better at hiding it? Or has the tradition sort of been lost even at the highest levels?" Well it's not just elites right? It's everyone! Let's just look at the 2016 election where we had these two competing magical groups were on one side you had the leftist witchcraft block, where people were hexing the president and hexing Steve Bannon all this stuff. And with very left wing ideas about how magic in the world works. So emphasis on goddess type spirituality, the importance of nature wicca the importance of LGBTQ I and people of color and all of these views on reality And then on the other hand we had this whole Keck thing with the alt right? And all of them using magic and then these people essentially conducting an

21:38 an open magical war in the streets and on the internet to the point where it's spilled into everything. And we had at the same time people like Steve Bannon publicly name checking, the occultist Julius Evola in a speech to the Vatican And even Donald Trump, by the way. I was shocked the other day I was at the library and I was looking through Donald Trump's books and there is a lot of stuff about Carl Jung in there and archetypes. There is a lot of stuff about the power of positive thinking and ability to manifest reality. Here's how I've come to see it. Magic is just part of being human, it's part of the human experience particularly if you consider religion magic. I mean religion is just the idea that if you do what church says or what the religious structure says then life will go good for you well thats magic too! Or more sorcerer things where people are trying to do on their own look its all magic its all people trying to control chaos and bring order out of chaos and human beings are fundamentally

22:38 Pattern seeking creatures and they're fundamentally pattern weaving creatures So just like a spider creates a web and a snail creates a snail shell while human beings make magic right meaning that they with anything available to them physical or spiritual will attempt to weave the order that they want out of the chaos That they see And unless one is able to take the perhaps higher path of simply letting go into chaos and the more mystical path of just accepting reality as it is without trying to control that which is perhaps. The true magic well this is what human beings do they weave order so I don't necessarily see even has a conspiratorial thing, I just think its baked into the human experience but of course people are going to come into conflict and

23:27 Governments will of course look for any angle whatsoever to get an advantage over their rivals or to hold power. Why wouldn't they? You know, we would almost be angry if they didn't. If our government wasn't for instance looking for advantage over Russia which has always been engaged in psychic warfare and even currently I don't know if you're aware of Alexander Dugin I've heard the name. So Dugan is kind of a modern evil John Dee, you know he's often called Putin's Rasputin and he is Putin's occult advisor in a way and it sounds silly until you realize that he's also the guy that architected the annexation of Crimea And he's the guy that came up with all of the political propaganda warfare methods That were likely responsible for helping at least swing the US election

24:13 and has been conducting fifth column guerrilla warfare in the US to completely destabilize and destroy the United States political narrative, and cohesiveness was perhaps quite successful. And it was really behind the alt-right along with lots of other protest movements. The whole Russian strategy is to covertly support and amp up any dissident movement on the ground, whether it's on the left or the right they really don't care what the politics are as long as it causes more chaos this is the russian propaganda strategy for destabilizing their enemies from within

24:50 So it's still going on. It's going on all around us, we're living in it never stopped D is a great way to look at that because when you understand the You understand how central this stuff has been too not just governments but life Yeah human history History is just the record of people trying to make reality in their image and then coming into war and many times bloody war Over what that should look like you know one of my favorite things that Robert Anton Wilson ever said is that Reality is the line where rival shamans have fought to a standstill Hmm, that's history Yeah, man. I like that and it is funny just no matter what area talking about spycraft and sorcery they definitely seem connected And let's get into the Anakian chapter the D story because this is the real meat of the book

25:41 book and it is really interesting. We'll have to bring in Edward Kelly of course, but what I find so fascinating about Enochian is just that yes there were a lot of grimoires circulating at the time but instead of translating and interpreting some older text this entire system and the complex language its delivered in all come from years of communication with angels as they're called and I think it might stand alone in that regard at least as far as we know right? Stand alone in what sense? Like a whole system being derived directly from spirit contact as opposed to like trying to translate older texts from a previous age. It is in the sense of the Western esoteric tradition, The Western Esoteric Tradition or the occult tradition is primarily a grimoire tradition it's been based around people cobbling together grimoires of ways to contact spirits and ways that have worked for them and writing down their records so that other people could perhaps

26:37 refine them or maybe get results from them. But D and Kelly system, you're right is unique in that it was delivered top down. Yeah And the angels looked at all that stuff and said oh no this is all wrong this is like monkeys trying to speak English right let's give you the real deal and they're very clear on that They basically said okay you guys have been trying to do magic in this very fumbling way for a long time meaning of human race none of this is really valid Nice try, nice try. Let's give you the real thing." And that's what Enochian was but the broader context on that by the way again it's another case of this stuff hiding in plain sight in a sense that let's just take the big three monotheist religions Christianity Islam and Judaism

27:21 If we consider that all of these religions, actually Christianity the least but all of them are derived from what people believe to be at least direct messages from angels not just any spiritual being but angels specifically or God as it were the god that controls the angels in the sense that Judaism primarily comes out of Moses speaking to Jehovah yet the burning bush and delivering the Ten Commandments is full of records of angelic contact that Christianity is derived from this being sending a human emissary, in this case Christ and that also revelation is a direct transmission from talking to angels. And that primarily the Genesis story of Islam is that the Prophet Muhammad sat in a cave and the Archangel Gabriel who appears in these other religions and was also one of the primary Angels Indian concessions shows up and says okay just take dictation I'm going to give you the Quran

28:17 Well, when we consider that all three of these religions are made up of people who derive their primary views on what reality and life are from angelic transmissions, and of course we can add Mormonism and some other ones as well. That's the majority of people on the planet if we just take Judaism Christianity in Islam that 61% of the planet and rising As Islam is growing exponentially and will grow tremendously by 2050 Well that's the majority of people on the planet so Even if you don't take that seriously and you think that it's self-delusion or misleading people, or superstition which is a fair argument. You still need to understand this because we're talking about the majority of people on the planet The people that we need to coexist with The people that we need to get along with In my opinion We don't give people respect unless we are willing at least

29:12 Take the way they view the world seriously on their own terms as they present it at least Temporarily to be able to walk in other people's shoes and see reality through their eyes Well, this is how we give people respect and if we're gonna live together And not kill each other then we need to do that But that's shocking to realize. Well D is not really a cult he's not really an exception He's kind of the rule right? Yeah I'm with you there that is a interesting way to look at it because i basically was thinking about this as so unique and then yeah, a lot of religions are derived from one person saying they had some spiritual contact and we're all stuck here on earth with no real context. We all have amnesia so were like yeah tell us what that spirit said in like here we are you know if these religions basically being the most dominant thing we have right

30:04 Let's get into Edward Kelly because everybody knows the John Dee name and then you go a little deeper and you really should know the Edward Kelly name because he couldn't really have done this without Edward Kelly. So I guess we should fold him in, maybe talk about those scrying sessions themselves. The thing that does make Dee & Kelley unique outside of that history...really unique almost without parallel Is the amount of scientific rigor that D brought to this? He was a trained at least proto scientist. The Scientific Revolution hadn't happened yet, but he was very, very trained in the scientific tools of his day

30:39 and they kept very ornate records. And with these religions that I've talked about, it's not a case of somebody coming down and saying okay God talk to me an he tells you what to do You just have to do what I say well D and Kelly they delivered not just messages from the angels but they delivered a system Nokia magic which was meant for other people to repeat on a scientific basis and make contact on their own That's a shocking turn in world history. Yes, that had never been done before outside of the grimoire tradition which wasn't getting very good results right but here's the thing D was a hard head he was like a scientist or compulsive rationalist kind of like an IT guy in his outlook and anyone who has ever been around the occult

31:25 knows that people who are too rational and to compulsively analytical often have a hard time directly engaging with spiritual experience because they have the burden of not only trying to make the experience happen but constantly analyzing it as it's happening which forms a barrier. And this is why meditation can be so important for people like that, so they can learn how to get out of their own way But D up to the age of 50 he was fascinated with the occult, but he hadn't been able to get it to work and in fact in the 1560s actually Contemplated suicide because he'd been trying to contact the Archangel Michael He couldn't get it to work and he had come to the conclusion that it was probably because he was a bad person They didn't want to talk to him

32:08 But the pedal really hit the floor as it were when he met Edward Kelly. And Edward Kelly was half Dee's age, He was an itinerant scryer which is a psychic who uses a crystal ball to get their visions He was an alcoholic, had his ears cut off for forging coins A cloud of brimstone and scandal followed him where he had been accused of necromancy summoning corpses from graves, summoning demons...a lot of which he'd actually done And Dee writes in his diaries that the day that Kelly shows up at Mort Lake, which was Dee's house in Southwest Lund. The moon turned blood red an omen of things to come

32:47 Dee's family hated Kelly. His wife despised him, the kids didn't like him very much but D realized that he could do it that Kelly had the knack He was not only a gifted psychic and scryer but he was delivering information which seemed to check out very well with the things that Dee already knew and That was of profoundly good quality now later commentators have said well Kelly could have just been reading the books in Dees library and regurgitating in back They formed a working partnership and they spent the next seven years basically doing nothing but occult rituals two, three times a day to open up contact to the angelic realms. And what that looked like was them sitting in Dee's study with the doors closed in daylight with the sun rays falling into a scrying glass little piece of crystal and Dee praying at length for

33:43 God and the angels to look kindly upon him, to forgive his sins and to deliver higher wisdom and understanding. To them And then after D did this kelly would go into a trance state looking into the crystal which is a method for entering trance and then would start saying what he was seeing d would write it down and then do you ask questions for clarification? And through that over many years they began to piece together uh a broadband connection to the angelic realms where they were constantly seeing spiritual figures, the angels were giving them quests to do missions interacting with them directly and then over the first few years delivering the Enochian magical system which is a much more precise set of instructions for establishing more stable connection with the angelic world part of which is the Enochian language which

34:36 the language spoken by humans before they fall from the Garden of Eden and the language spoken by angels themselves which could be used to speak to angels on their own terms. Well, you know the personal apocalypse they say seems to be a big part of the magical journey. So I guess i'm not surprised Kelly was a mess and this audience doesn't really need a reminder that i'm turned off by most things of a biblical flavor And as exciting as this sort of communication with spirits is when I start reading it and it's all about repent and obey The Lord and warnings of revelation are near I'm just kinda like, really? This is the great insight. But to put this in the form of a question you write that when Queen Mary died and Queen Elizabeth came into power The final Catholic hold on England vanished And that she saw religions as tools of the state and I completely agree with that So what did she think when her occult advisor is saying he's speaking with angels who want to manifest the book of revelation

35:36 Well, D had kind of fallen from grace by that time. He was still close with Elizabeth but he was a true believer. He really believed this stuff. He was totally sincere sincere in a way that is challenging as you said for a lot of modern students of the occult and one of the reasons for that is I think particularly in America not so much, you know The occult world's very different depending on where you go in the world You know in England and the UK Occultists tend to come from secular and atheistic backgrounds. And so they have a very real challenge with

36:12 English students of the occult is actually taking up. The English people don't take anything seriously, let alone claims of direct contact with spiritual beings and things like that so the english occult world is much more cynical than the american one but the American spiritual landscape is dominated by evangelical Christianity in a way that the UK and Europe just aren't. The U.K. And europe are profoundly more secular than America america's not a secular country this is a country that was founded by religious religious refugees and it's a country that religious refugees from all the world spiritual traditions still come to, to seek religious freedom. Because of that, a lot of people who are occult students in the US now have grown up in evangelical households and often look to the occult as a way to rebel against their rightly so in many cases rebel against their oppressive Christian upbringing

37:10 personal meaning and power on their own terms. What I discovered writing this book is that most of the modern forms of the occult from Crowley on also come directly out of a narrative of evangelical Christianity when you consider that Aleister Crowley whatever you think of him we really have to look to him as the progenitor of modern occultism coming out of the Golden Dawn tradition, Crowley was raised in the Plymouth Brethren, the exclusive brethren which was a religious sect started by John Nelson Darby and Darby is the person who came up with the idea of the rapture. He was the person that came up with the idea that not only should scripture be taken literally but should form the guiding light of public policy and it's the responsibility just like Dee said, Darby thought that it was the responsibility of the people in power to

38:05 to make revelation happen in order to steward this final period of history, to help Christ return sooner. Darby's evangelism became the dominant religion in America. Dispensationalist Christianity is what Darby's ideas formed from the turn of the century onward, became through the circulation of the Schofield Reference Bible in America, became the guiding myth of Christian evangelicals and the reason why American evangelical supported the birth of Israel and pushed so hard for it became the reason why

38:42 Ronald Reagan believed it in the 80s that it was the role of government to help the apocalypse happen. George Bush believed that his wars were divinely ordained, in Revelation John Bolton currently believes and Mike Pence sure as hell believes it In a way that narrative has been the guiding narrative of American politics for over 100 years When you consider that Crowley, who's the progenitor of the occult which on the surface looks like the resistance to that came right out of this same group studied within Darby's group and then took all those assumptions straight into the Golden Dawn techniques in his experiments with John Dee's system. And that from Crowley we can trace a straight line into Anton LaVey, and Satanism, and modern witchcraft movement straight from Jack Parsons and all of this stuff so the crazy thing that I came to realize about the American spiritual landscape is on one hand we have The Evangelical Rite, a Pew Forum study in 2006

39:41 came to the conclusion that one in three Americans believe that we are living the final days, that Christ is coming back in our lifetime and that the ongoing support of the state of Israel as necessary for the apocalypse to occur. And therefore American foreign policy in the Middle East is necessary to hasten the eschaton or the return of Christ one in three Americans and the left behind books which are straight out of our dramatization of Darby's Dispensationalist views are the most read books in America after the Bible before Stephen King. And that, well in America when people rebel they tend to unless they become pure atheists if there are spiritual rebels well then they go into Satanism witchcraft the new age and all of that stuff comes straight out of Crowley which goes right back to the same place. It's all this one group this idea of hastening the apocalypse and the people who think that they're rebelling against this are just taking on the oppositional role in the same damn story the same game as I put it in the book

40:41 You can't rebel against the popularity of Star Wars by putting on a Darth Vader mask, right? That's just silly but that's what people tend to do So that's a bit of a tangent, but well I had that exact Vader quote written down for later in terms of Crowley and the way He used the term Antichrist and stuff. But yeah, great points And it all is very ingrained you can't really decouple it from the evangelical stuff but I'm really interested in what non-human intelligences say or what they are, what they're like or really anything that would help me to flesh out a personality profile for these things. And they talk a lot to John Dee and Edward Kelly What can you say that maybe help us better understand the beings themselves because they didn't seem to fit into the spiritual hierarchies of their day but things like These angels place in the spirit world or there thoughts and ideas things like this

41:40 So let's talk about angels. If you want to fold in my own outside of the scope of this book, if I was to answer this question from my own personal experience and not from D specifically My personal experiences, the spirit world whatever you want to call is as varied and chaotic as the human world. Mm hmm. If you consider the gods and spirits of all of the worlds cultures that's a lot of stuff all of which has culturally idiosyncratic and different as people are And And there are similarities, but there's a lot of differences too. So evangelical angels are not going to act in the same way as for instance family ancestral spirits in Thailand, right? Those are just not the same thing. They're the same and that they're both perhaps spirits in the same way that me and George Bush are both people. It might generally be the same category perhaps but even with spirits I'm not even sure that's quite the same it's kind of like saying well me and a fox or both alive were both mammals yeah but that's kinda where the similarity ends

42:43 And this is a mistake by the way that chaos magic falls into way too much and people who come at magic from the postmodern lens will often come to the conclusion that it's all the same and it's just the human mind interacting with the great infinite. Well no, it isn't! The details matter They're not just cultural archetypes on the same experience. I don't think that's true, the details do matter so in terms of angels right let's talk about D and Kelly's Angels when we talk about angels now what do we think about perhaps Hallmark cars rosy cheeked carobs new age channel angels who come down from the sky to tell you 2012 was just around the corner or i guess they don't say that anymore but you know that type of thing right

43:31 Everything's gonna be great in the future right precious moment figurine type stuff right now the angels that dian kelly are talking about like giants with heads of sons. Beings there appearing with multiple pupils and each i covered clouds a wing was the wings filled with eyes, furious, wrathful angels loving angels. Angels that are often female seductive female beings scarlet woman the daughter of fortitude what Crowley later called Babylon and at one point they even meet God and god is not old man with a white beard up in the clouds god is a whale covered with eyes from head to toe

44:11 from the mouth of which emits a deafening sound that D.N. Kelly says is like a cave of roaring lions and they go into it and see reality peeled back, the 30 aethers of reality unveiled from within the mouth of the whale So that's a little different from the Hallmark version. Yeah, very Lovecraftian almost! Yeah less tentacles. Right more eyeballs less tentacles yeah yeah but they were pretty much on point with what angels do in the Bible so it wasn't that they were outside of the spiritual hierarchies of the day or different for angels as they'd been

44:49 reported, it's just that the experience was a lot different than it said in the manual. Interesting and so something I've heard you say that I thought was really interesting in terms of the way they conceive of man is that they seem to be pretty heartbroken over the fall of man and this kind of gets into free will... You know? That's the thing that gets brought up a lot especially when talking to people about astrology or prediction magic It's like well how does free will fit into this but From the angels perspective, it's like very frustrating that man can just choose to not obey. Here we are trying to give you the goddamn language of the angels trying to give you the keys to the castle and You can't wake up before noon. You can't put down the bottle like come on humans like get with it This is why we kind of hate you a little bit and it's like those little nuances I just think those are fascinating

45:43 Totally we have to see it from the perspective of the angels right where from their perspective it's like look everything was so easy we created this for you all you had to do is stay in reverence of your parents and your source. Instead, humanity constantly chooses the path of least resistance and chooses sin and chooses evil because the whole thing about humans is humans are given free will. Angels don't have free will animals don't have free will but human beings who are in between those two classes of beings do have free will and this is something by the way that it's not just Christianity but all of the world spiritual traditions tell us for the most part I mean Sufism says it Buddhism says it both Sufi-ism and Tibetan Buddhism are very, very clear on the point that

46:33 The great thing about human beings is that on one hand they have a body and on the other hand, they have consciousness. They have free will so again between the spirit world and the animals but as long as you have a body which is still alive then you still have time to make new decisions right? You can still course correct and choose what vibratory rate you're going to aim for which of course will determine what happens when you die, whether you believe that that's ending up in some other place or simply as the Buddhists do that it determines that you know the vibratory frequency that you take with you into death and perhaps through the intermediary bardo period will then by necessity match the vibratory frequency of it. You're next born into so that if you die in a state of anger and hatred

47:19 you're not able to let go of it in the intermediary period, a psychedelic trip called the bardo in between lives then your soul will be attracted to parents in your next life that match that frequency because how could it be any other way? And this is the Buddhist view of karma right but the Buddhists say that a human incarnation is the best thing you can get and all of the ten thousand myriad worlds. Because only with a human body can Can you not only have consciousness and free will but a physical body which allows you to course correct and modulate your frequency by your own actions and decisions, which isn't that what magic is?

47:57 right? So the angels kind of have the same view where humans have free will. They can't overwrite it, they can threaten, they can cajole, they can bribe, They can say look just be good for God's sake and follow what we say, follow god and everything is fine I mean it's like from their perspective It's like look god created all this This is god The world you're in Is god And God has given you free will as an experiment, but it's like why are you focusing on petty things like money and status when you could instead focus on the creator of this whole thing? Don't you think that if you focus on the source of the movie that the movie will get good for you. But instead you focus on

48:43 the shadows on the wall to use Plato's cave metaphor. And this frustrates them to no end, but they can't override human free will because that's against the rules of the game and humans wouldn't be humans so the angels yes are quite heartbroken that humanity has constantly chosen in the path at least resistance but they can't overwrite it and this is kind of a great tragedy of the human experiment But by the same token without free will we wouldn't be humans? Yeah That makes sense and i guess one more question for you just because I've heard people talking about this too and it's like where do we put certain influence in terms of D. And the modern world and him having a hand in that yeah we talked about empire,

49:25 I'm curious about your thoughts on Silicon Valley technology, computer technology and how it relates to magic because I've had a previous guest talk about the first multi-use computer. Of course it can be hard to identify the first computer but if you were to identified or define it as multi use, It would be this computer that was called Eniac which is phonetically fairly similar and now we have D-Wave computer which could be described as like John D waving. That's funny it's how it's been kind of symbolically describe to me but even the creator of the d wave computer has equated it too you know talking to spirits on some kind of technological alter something do you think that if we're gonna talk about these influence in the modern world that its fair to talk about computer technology as an element of that

50:16 Yeah well you know as i say in the book information technology now alan turing who created the computer revolution, alan turing relied and creating computational theory on informational theory which comes from godfrey leibniz. And leibnitz got the foundations of his informational theory from raymond lol who is a 12th century Franciscan monk who wrote the first novel, who claimed to have a waking vision of Christ in which he saw the entire universe laid out as a nested informational structure. Which is a direct perception into the hermetic worldview so if you trace it back

50:53 We owe the existence of personal computer to a guy's vision of Christ in the 12th century, but you trace it forward. I mean look Steve jobs You know the personal computer the Mac, you know job spent years doing acid and you know He went to India to look for an eem Crowley Baba And he was a spiritual seeker and really that whole baby boomer generation you know i'm urston psychedelics and mysticism in all of those experiences. And that whole world view was embedded into the informational technology and personal computer revolution that came out of that generation but just a few months ago i presented in london, where is google's artists and machine intelligence program with kenneth mcdowell at the serpentine gallery in london where i was talking about how we need to look at artificial intelligence

51:38 as we go forward into it and we need to be very careful about how we model super intelligence is because were about to going to the world where the gods and monsters are very real in the forms of AI i think that if you bring in. these assumptions like if we turn AI into a punishing Old Testament God because without thinking about it, we encode an ethical structure and do it. It comes out of Western dominator culture for instance were going to be in hot water is just gonna repeat the same cycle of empire and abuse on a much grander scale perhaps and that's what people are doing right now I mean you got 1000 companies working on Ai in this massive arms race and they're all

52:18 optimizing those algorithms to extract value and money and repeat the fundamental assumptions of global capitalism. Now I argue that if we're gonna have an AI, make it all compassionate Buddha for no god's sake make it a voluntary shawarma get concerned with decreasing human suffering and the health of the network of humanity as a whole instead of maximizing value extraction or punishment i mean look if you took all testament and he had at machine intelligence read it and put in the code you can have a machine intelligence building hells for people no that's not what do not for love of fuck

52:56 those cultural assumptions into an AI, put something like Buddhism and compassion for all sentient life into an AI. And so that's kind of where I think my very bizarre and specialist set of skills is rather applicable right now Yeah man why i'm glad i asked you know just another example of how everything does start with the mind everything starts with ideas and philosophy and then they're brought down to this plane and they can have massive consequences in that's gonna play a role with like he said so. Man, this has been awesome. Clearly we barely scratched the surface of this book of the Enochian system and just the massive influence these threads seem to have had Of course were still in the middle of story so will see where it goes and hopefully we can do this again but until that time remind people about your website classes and all the ways they can dig deeper into your larger body work

53:50 Absolutely. So my website is Jason Louvre dot com, my last name is spelled L O U V these and victor so jason louvre dot com and you can see all my books there You can see my classes at magic dot me I have classes on every facet of magic you can think of astral projection chaos magic ceremonial magic There's a new inokian class that went up this week There's tons and tons of stuff there are video trainings Also, all of my social media is there. So please follow me on social media I'm at Jason Louvre on Twitter Please follow me there and I have a special gift for you which is a free class on magic as we should be thinking about these things and The free class which is a seven-day email course Which comes loaded with video trainings on meditation a book on sigils guided meditations on achieving magical consciousness in magical empowerment

54:46 Podcast lots and lots and lots of goodies all free you can Get that very easily. Just take out your phone and text the word shaman S-h-a-m-a-n to the phone number four four two, two two So that's shaman to the phone number for four two, two two It'll come back and ask you for your email address You put that in it'll send ya The goodies. Ah, very cool man and how synchronistic the number I seem to see everywhere is 42 There you go the answer to life the universe and everything yes indeed So this has been a great time You know the more I learn the dumber I feel so thanks for contributing to that And it's been a real pleasure man much respect take care out there Thank you was a big honor to be on the show it was a great conversation Heck yeah alright, man have a good one you too

55:38 Abracadabra and hallelujah boys and girls, Jason Louvre dropping knowledge like it ain't no thing. Clearly he has done a lot of work here. The book is really a feat I'm also really loving how some of these shows just happen to come out in a really cross-referential order It's like we had Tolec and then with Michael Wan the term Tolic came up phonetically as a Native American ambassador type of role, just interesting But this show about Dee sort of ties back to Tracy Twyman but it's definitely a nice compliment to Tobias Churton

56:13 The show we did about Crowley. So if you care about these figures, I think we hit a nice one-two punch with those Jason is a bit more objective and Tobias really seems to romanticize the man Alistair Crowley but i thought it made the whole show really entertaining I liked his passion but also we just talked to Michael about John Dee and the Susquehanna River, and technology. And then bam! We get a little more in-depth on that particular thread It's hard to connect the green children of Woolpit too much unless they tumbled out of a hidden hyperspace kingdom. Maybe that's why the Templars were so involved, but anyway good stuff lately I'm quite proud of the string of shows that we're on for the most part and i have the next three recorded already and I think they're all knockouts and really diverse one is a little lacking in the audio quality but you know with this show We go to some

57:13 far out places to get gas if you remember jim chestner we interviewed him about the box saga. And were here in chickens and roosters in the background because he's outside well sometimes that happens and i interviewed someone with a lot of deep and unique knowledge but they don't use skype don't even use the internet really it seems they just had an old flip phone and yeah that's a little disappointing for the sake of audio quality, but it really is a person who practices what they preach. We should all step away from Skype and Microsoft and Google." And so in a way I actually really appreciate a person who's like no i can't get on the internet, I can't get on Skype sorry small thing! And I'm going to work to make it as good as we can make it but all three content-wise

58:08 I'm really happy about. As for today, i do think talking about these Enochian sessions is amazing! I love the framing of the angels saying, look guys all this magic is wrong. Good try morons here's the real language of the angels now get it right and i sort of like the contempt or at least the framing of free will as almost a flaw not a benefit like a parent who can't get their kid to do what they say sometimes we do get in our own way we get lazy or we get distracted and i think you could say the path of being

58:45 Literally, all you can be is a path that is near impossible to walk. A lot of people talk about achieving a light body or enlightenment or Christ consciousness like really getting into those deep deep levels Most of us don't even meditate so we're pretty far off I don't think there's a lot of Tibetan monks listening but that deep deep work...I mean You really can let yourself get distracted with anything So I really respect people that can walk that path but... I don't think i'm that guy. The angels would be pretty pissed at me! It is kind of weird though because don't the angels have free will just in the sense that they could contact Dee and Kelly or not? They could give them the Enochian language, or just not? Are they being forced to have these conversations? I don't know but their attitude towards humans I think is just awesome

59:41 Not necessarily awesome in tone, but just awesome to hear about. Also the way that gods and angels appear as horrifying monsters in a sense like what's all that about? It's not nothing! And if it's the same kind of trickster in play, or if its related to other phenomenon over the years I like to think that the biblical stuff is related to cultural overlay. Maybe it's not but from what I always hear these things tend to present themselves in terms we understand so in Dee's day this was what had to be maybe it presumptuous for me to try and put my own spin on it or cut around things I don't like but thats kinda what im thinking

1:00:24 I don't really hear this stuff and feel the need to repent or get out my bible or get myself right with the lord necessarily, but it is hard to deny that's in there. i really do love this interview today though and it went by so quick! The first hour was great but in the second hour...in that plus portion we got more into some of the heady stuff about how magic relates to sexuality And it is thorny and people have lots of opinions, and just because I asked Jason for his... It isn't really an endorsement. I'm just asking a guy who clearly has thought these things through for himself. I want to know where he's at, and I want to try to fold it into my own thoughts about this stuff. It's no surprise that when we talk about elite magic and what they're doing behind the curtain in Masonic basements, it's a lot about raping kids

1:01:17 What about goat headed orgy is in shit like that so a lot of people get concerned that when we start talking about magic were opening the doors to the sexualization of children and this weird culture and transgender trans humanist stuff. And i don't think it has to be just have a conversation about sex that isn't through a hole on the sheet I think Jason made some great points about our sexual repression and that you look at the church, you look at the sex scandals there and maybe the repression of our sexuality which is a natural outpouring of being a human being when you close that off it manifests in dark and disturbing ways like getting on with kids. Maybe that's the thing

1:02:08 And I also thought that was an interesting point. I mean, I'm giving away the whole plus show here but i did also think it was an interesting point that we have these child trafficking problems, we have these pedophilia problems and we don't address them because maybe as a culture we can't even look at it because we're in slight denial not this audience but think about the wider culture. We might be in denial unable to address what's going on because of our sexual repression. And maybe if we just kind of chilled out and relaxed, and allowed consenting adults to do whatever they wanted without the judgment that we tend to put on everything... Maybe then would be a little more open to actually solving those problems or at least addressing them in focusing on them

1:02:57 Right now there's so much consensual basic human sexuality that's lumped in as taboo or frowned upon. And so it's really hard to cut out what's really, really bad from what just might be a little too open for you? I don't know again just ideas I like to try them all on, because every idea can be sold as appealing. But it's naive to think that you know all the results of what kind of society every implementation of an idea would manifest. You don't know where every school of thought leads and there are almost infinite factors in trying to figure it out So I think its food for thought a little taboo for some but I think great points were made

1:03:47 Also in the plus show I asked Jason about D and Kelly's most dramatic sessions We talked about the whore of Babylon in the context of sexuality and magic talked about entities and empires And how there seems to be an attraction there? and that fun fun chapter of The wife swapping, and I do think that the fact that the angels wanted D and Kelly to wife swap is pretty weird. And it does make me think that they're kind of just tricksters. Maybe the angels were fucking with them more than we know, maybe they were trying to break them down and break down their prejudices and try to push them into a new understanding or maybe they were just like let's fucking mess with these guys

1:04:32 They had contempt for humans, so maybe that's what they were doing. I don't think we can take it all at face value but the Anakian system itself does seem to be something! That is so exciting when you look at it and you're like holy shit this is complex! This is like 5D chess plus Sudoku plus spirits So really fun, provocative and Jason knows his stuff. In Hireside Chat's land the only thing I would throw out here news-wise is that there were some hints at some drama and people wanted to know what was going on And I like to keep this stuff close to the chest Unfortunately in a moment of weakness tweeted about how I was upset about getting paranoid and wanted to retract...I don't know what i said

1:05:18 Who cares, really? It made people wonder what was going on. You know I hate drama and I hate getting sucked into this or that and i just want to make my show and keep my head down for the most part but I've historically been really inviting and open and had this sure let's do it attitude. I've met a lot of random listeners out in the world even But recently it did get a bit weird and I always thought if it got weird It would be threats from on high or something like that. I thought if anything got to me, It would be the deep state trying to say dude you gotta chill out on this topic Or that topic are gonna kill you

1:05:58 But what got to me, I guess just really seems to be overly enthusiastic borderline stalkerish behavior. And i guess i'm not a real big stranger to that but i usually laugh it off and this time a few things stacked up that i just couldn't laugh off I don't want to elaborate really. I'm lucky to have passionate listeners and 99 out of 100 people can be pretty cool, but it only takes one weirdo to really freak you out and i had close to a dozen so i just realized that anything bothering me really just comes through a computer screen and i sort of just need to back away from the screens maybe get a little less personal with people that i've only met online and i think that's probably good advice for everyone

1:06:47 You know, maybe it's everything. Maybe just staring into the abyss like this does tend to get you down after a while I saw some dark stuff recently that also kind of hurt the soul But this is the path i've chosen and I think that I'm tough enough to walk it And it's all good but for a little while I think I'm just gonna make my shows Get in there post them and get out until it's time to throw another one in the mix But it's all good, it's whatever. For example, I really like having the Facebook group but even that. You know it's really one of the only centralized places for THC listeners. Typically this audience is a one-to-one thing you listen to the show, you go on about your day that's it! It's really hard for any outside influence to corral that or infiltrate it for lack of a less dramatic word but now that we have X number of THC listeners all in one pool

1:07:47 There did seem to be a little fuckery going on. And what bothers me is people using the THC group for sales leads or to market their stuff too, oh here's a large group of people, a targeted segment and I'm gonna use it! Like can't we just talk about the show and enjoy it without selling? To these people...I don't know In fact some unknown admin for The Page actually kicked ME out of the group! Me! Can you believe it?! I'm back now, and it really is no big deal. But just you know if you only want to enjoy the show and don't need any other extra stuff or community involvement that is great because I can only be responsible for what goes on in the actual shows these mp3 files are my domain and that's it! And I am going to keep doing what I do

1:08:38 trying to give you the best interviews with the best people and the rest is all just fluff. Have a good time with it, hang out on Discord, hang out in the Facebook group whatever! but prioritize your life. Do what you can to break free of the chains of the debt-based system of rule and the slow roll a total control, and stay on this ride with me sign up for PLUS if you want the full show with all the twists and turns or keep taking that free ride on the kiddie circuit no problem! You can sign up for PLUS at TheHigherSideChatsPLUS.com you can check out the THC T-shirts at TheHigherSideClothing.com Thanks for all your support

1:09:18 Big thanks again to Jason for being here. I don't think it'll be the last time, he was a great guest! Definitely check out his free magic course offering if you want to dig deeper and i'll see ya soon Your move Enochian Angels wife swapping sorcerers and magic making architects of reality itself your fucking mood This is important hear what I said I'm trying to tell you It's not paranoia, not in my head. It's just the hard truth Knocked on your door while I still can To ask you a question Cause i know your head is still in the sand Don't be sheep till ya slaughter for the rest of your life Oppressed, oppressed but you're getting woke You say you don't want to be stressed until the day you die Tough luck my friend Did you get the memo?

1:10:19 Can't you see that we're so screwed? Don't you know our arc, can't you just admit We're screwed I'm gonna tell ya this anyway It's a scary rose for every day Okay! Can't you see that we're so- You sit and wish but we don't have a choice It seems we're stuck here But you can find no sis drown out the noise

1:11:02 Now use that altar, end up your magic game And listen to THC you know You go with the entities if you ever see embo Don't be sheep till ya slaughter for the rest of your life Oppressed oppressed but you're getting woke You say you don't want to be stressed until the day you die Tough luck my friend Did you get the memo? Can't you say that we're so screwed? Don't you know we're all confused. Can't you just admit, we're screwed I'm gonna tell ya this anyway It's a scary, scarier everyday We'll be okay Can't you see that we're so- ooooooooh Yeah!

1:12:14 Don't be sheep to your slaughter for the rest of your life Oppressed, oppressed but you're getting woke You say you don't want to be stressed until the day you die Tough luck my friend Did ya get the memo? Can't you see that we're so screwed? Don't you know we are kung-fu'd? Can't you just admit we're screwed I'm gonna tell you this anyway, it's a scary day. It'll be okay Can't you see that we're so old? Yeah-eh-eh