Dr. William Bengston | Intention & Energy Healing: Data & Results

00:05 That's true, Dr. Seuss. Alright, Higher Side Chatters. We've come to understand there lies some interesting phenomenon at the crossroads of reality and consciousness that our material worldview overlords would rather we not discuss

00:53 But having seen plenty of interesting data from studies in remote viewing, telepathy and near-death experience just to name a few we realize it can't be ignored. Well the only thing our shadowy elite hate more than people discarding their preapproved perspective is when it wanders into areas that mess with their money and today's guest might have done just that! The highly respected Dr Bill Bengston has been conducting research on anomalous healing for many years and has proven the effectiveness of his technique and 10 controlled animal experiments conducted in five university biological and medical laboratories. You can read more about it in his book, The Energy Cure Unraveling the Mystery of Hands-on Healing or pick up his audio training course and just dive in for yourself but to my knowledge he's done the most thorough scientific studies at the phenomenon on the planet so its a real treat to have him here talk about it Dr. Bengston my man welcome to The Higher Side

01:42 Thanks a lot. Appreciate being on yeah, you got it This is really exciting man because there's a lot of speculation in the world A lot of people claim to have interesting mental abilities or otherworldly experiences that don't fit into what our mainstream culture is willing to accept and we sort of have to take their word for it or just reject it but when I I can drag a close-minded friend kicking and screaming into your research, which i've done a few times now. That's pretty satisfying to watch their reality tunnel break down as they try to deal with the implications of the so called impossible. I'm sure you've had some similar fun with this right? Absolutely, but I'm one of those people like your friends. I'm not a believer in this stuff at all. I just find the phenomenon of healing pretty interesting and it keeps happening and so i never default to belief. I don't think I have a believing bone in my body but the stuff keeps happening and so my skeptical attitude towards this stuff is being tested tested tested and as long as the data keep showing that something's going on there

02:42 Pretty interesting that I'm gonna keep at it Fair points. And so let's start at the beginning for people who might be new to this How did you get started in studying healing? Well, it was a long time ago and a place far far away We could probably make a movie about that and I was lifeguarding and I ran into a guy there who claimed he was a psychic and His name is Bennett Mayrick. And so I was skeptical then, skeptical now. I said well you know it's interesting...I had read some studies and some popular books and things like that on psychic stuff and i said well if you can do this let me test ya! So he said that's fine then I started to give him tests and he was passing the test It was really uh...it was interesting and frustrating and I figured by design sufficiently complex

03:34 double blind studies that I could eventually find out that something else was going on but he beat me you know, the guy was real. He was a psychic, he could do readings with astonishing accuracy and I couldn't find a flaw in what was going on And his readings turned into physical readings. And by that I mean, kind of spontaneously instead of getting what would be called normal psychometry and telling about this or that and personal stuff he started to pick up physical symptoms on his own body. When that happened what was alleged to him was the symptoms were leaving the person who is doing a reading on them. He thought it was crazy

04:21 I of course thought it was crazy and so we started to pick up stuff people who are in pain and sick and things like that he would pick up the symptoms on his own body and it seemed as if it was leaving the person and saw this one for a few months and i wasn't sure what to do with it and one day you were sitting in the kitchen And I had a bad back for many years. It was actually competitive swimmer and how to give up the swimming scholarship, and i wasn't kind of chronic pain all the time sometimes it would flare up sometimes not so bad but in this particular day was flaring up and he's telling me this story about how you just relieve somebody's pain

05:07 And I'm sitting there thinking, well you know you're the village idiot here. The guy's talking about relieving pain and your sitting here in pain let's do something here so just as i thought that...I know this sounds preposterous but just as I thought that He grabs his back and goes whoa somebody has a pain So I let him twist into wind for awhile and he is ruffling through his pockets saying they don't have a pain They are not having any pain he is trying to figure out if he carrying something of someone And he's going on and on again, I'm just letting them twist out there because i'm a nasty person. And then finally he says, I don't know what to make of this, I have pain in my back! And I said it's me? He says you?! Yeah what kind of half-assed psychic are you? You can't even tell when I have pain in the back. Keep your pain yourself and better idea fix it. And he said how? I said put your hands on my back

06:00 And he said, and then do what? And I said fix the damn thing. So i leaned over on a kitchen table, said put your hands on my back, put his hands on my back and he said now what? I said just do it! His hands uh well not his hands so it was more a sensation of almost becoming novacane in my back. The novocaine was five inches in diameter and then it wore off from the outside in and it was the last backpack ever had So I've been absolutely back pain free for now a gazillion years. If it's a hysterical suppression of symptoms, I'm fine with it because no matter what I do my back never hurts." Wow! And so I thought what are we going to do with this? Let's start putting his hands on other things and let's start seeing what's going on and so I'm dragging him around dragging his hands around putting them on this put them on that and we started to see some patterns in the patterns were

07:01 In crude terms, pretty interesting. Some things seem to be affected some things not so much and that continues to this day and we found out that for example benign growths don't seem to respond to this malignant growths do. And so started putting hands on people who have malignant growth Many people have malignant growths dozens and dozens and dozens of people are growing gross and it was a reasonably interesting phenomenon so the first couple hundred healings are pretty interesting but after awhile if you're. I'm certain mindset what alert can i get out learning anything so

07:43 People were getting better sometimes Sometimes they would get mad and run away people don't like healing very much And I needed to get to what the underlying mechanism was so that's essentially how I got started. I took my work from The clinical stuff, I went backwards and then went into the lab mm-hmm That's what's so impressive to me about this is that? You know, you were able to get started on this with no real training and it just seemed to be kind of a random occurrence which makes me wonder why we don't see more just organic discoveries of this phenomenon if it seems to be so easy to do. Are you talking about lab work? Well in what you've told us so far before you got into the lab work, it seemed like it didn't take very many trials before you had immediate successes

08:29 Yeah, the successes started right away and one of the interesting things about this guy who's no longer with us incidentally but one of the interesting things about this guy was that he had no trainer. He just kind of morphed into a psychic when he was in his late 40s. He wasn't a psychic before that. He morphed into being a psychic then he morphed into being a healer and then he went on from there so I would suspect that there's probably a bunch of people out there like this. I mean, he can't be the only one walking around like this. So I just kind of glommed onto it and said well let's get to what is actually going on here. Right and now as you got into lab experiments you did a lot of research on cancer in mice and for people who might not have a background in scientific research tell us why the mice model and parameters are really pretty perfect situation for measuring this type of thing?

09:27 Well, when you do normal research and I'm going to say mine's not normal or my path hasn't been normal. When you do normal research, you usually start with what are called preclinical models so you'd do animals and cell cultures and things like that and then eventually move into clinical where you're dealing with people. And I did the reverse we just started putting hands on here and putting hands on there and just kind of taking gross observations about what was happening and then I move backwards into the lab to try to find out what's already going on. But, to answer your question about why the lab is so good... The mouse model that we used first—and this was done at City University of New York— and there are many models like this you know exactly what's gonna happen You know exactly when the mice got cancer. You know exactly what's gonna happen after they get cancer. You're gonna know exactly how long each mouse is going to live

10:28 in the aggregate. So it's a very controlled environment if you have a person, I mean you don't even know when a person got sick. The client walks in off the street and says I have a tumor or this or that and you really do not know anything about it. People walk around with cancer all of time there is some suspicion that everybody has cancer And that's discovered by autopsies of young people who die in car accidents. And when they're doing the autopsy and they're taking histology, this and that it turns out virtually everybody has cancer but that's very different from a disease just like you've got a whole bunch of bacteria viruses and good chunk your cells are not have your origin and you walk around you're not sick you just you're a colony

11:23 And sometimes some of the cells go rogue and they're just floating around in your system. And then your immune system scoops them up and gets rid of them. That's very different than being sick, so someone comes to you and they have a tumor. You don't have no idea how long they've had it. You have no idea what's going on. And frankly let's say a person walks in and says I have this tumor And you put your hands on, and then you put your hands on. You do a bunch of treatments that I mean that's wonderful but you don't know whether it was time the body would have done it anyway? You don't know whether it's because they ate a grapefruit? You don't know whether it's because they didn't eat a grapefruit? They had an extra vitamin C they didn't have an extra vitamin C...I mean you don't know people are too complex yeah so you go into lab and you have mice you know exactly

12:20 Who they are where they came from how long you're gonna live everything about them you know what i'm eating how long did slept get everything about the particular model i work with wasn't chosen by me, who was chosen by an oncology lab is a memory cancer and the short version is. You got a particular kind of mouse you inject it with a certain number of cells usually but hundred thousand and then you know exactly what's gonna happen to one i used 100% of the mice in 20 years of research and thousands of papers, 100% of the mice die in 27 days. They don't die all on the 27th day it follows kind of a normal bell curve and a certain percentage died on a certain day and a certain percentage on the next day but its very tight model

13:11 If you're geeky and you want to talk about standard deviations, the standard deviation of death is three days which means two-thirds of the mice die plus or minus a particular three days. And no mouse has ever lived past day 27! The other good thing about this model is that everything on the external. So nothing metastasizes, you just get a mouse with an ugly growth and the growth gets bigger and uglier and then the mouse dies. And so you can measure it, you can weigh it, you can do anything you want and lots of people all over the world use this particular mouse model. It's very common. I said give me something that is common! This became the model I started with

13:58 And so the benefit of the lab work is that we know you can do very, very detailed work and you know everything about the animal. Dr. Justin Marchegiani Right. It's good for people to have that context of the model that you're using and how reliable it is. So walk us through the first experiment where you got to that big eureka moment? Dr. Kahne Yeah I was kinda flopping on a floor. It caught me off guard. Again, I come to this as a skeptic and I thought well let's see what happens. We get some mice we have them injected all of the course is done by the biologists and we put our hands around a cage let's see what happens to the mice

14:38 And I'm thinking, well we're going to have very controlled environment. We can see what's going on and now among the things that I am is a statistician and so I thought i would be doing statistical analyses of this on different shapes or curves of death and all this stuff So we started out and the original person who was gonna do these experiments was of course Ben Marek The guy who dragged me down this crazy path and he backed out And that wasn't good for my team, I kind of had a fit because it was very difficult to set this up. So months and months went into the planning of this experiment and he backs out and then we're left with mice are coming but we have no healer so i'm not a healer but i was then volunteered cause there's no plan B or i guess plan C

15:27 For anybody else to do this so i had followed him around a lot learned a lot and watched the lock and so i became the substitute healer on this thing so i went. Do the lab but put my hands are on the cage for an hour day we have no idea how long you need to do this, can we figure what happens and i was thinking at that time maybe healing is like radiation you zap it. I'm thinking, I'm zapping something if something is going to work so if the mice are just injected with cancer a couple of days earlier and we go kind of thing then maybe like radiation will kill the cells and all that stuff instead the tumors are growing and so I am an empiricist here in the data and so the tumors are growing and I said well its not working

16:22 let's cancel this thing. And the people who had set this up and spent quite a bit of time setting it up said, well just do it a couple more days so I get alright I'll do to come with day so I'm putting my hands around the cage for an hour or day tumors keep growing and I said come on they're growing And they said, yeah but you know they don't seem sick. And it's true they seem bright-eyed bushy tailed but they have these ugly growths and I'm thinking well if they have the growths then I couldn't prevent the cancer from growing I'm probably not having any effect at all go on a couple more days I do it a couple more days tumors getting even bigger now it's getting huge and I'm going come on folks pay attention to thing doesn't work

17:08 And so, a couple more days the tumor get a blackened area on the tip of it and now I'm sure they're dying. A couple more days I'm urged... The tumor ulcerates! Nobody had ever seen this ulceration before and iIm thinking well they're dying we got to stop give you an idea my belief in this stuff. And they say couple more days and then the tumor implodes and the mice are cured. Damn distinct. I mean, when we got the results that the mice are cured they're not remitted. We didn't know that at the time but these aren't remitted mice because it's not a relief of symptoms they're cured for life so we watch them for their entire lifespan and it gets even nuttier! We can reinject them during their entire lifespan and they can't get cancer again. Yeah, that to me is the wildest thing

18:09 Well, it's not a i mean you know give me a break this is silly but here are the data you know so again I don't come as a believer. It didn't happen where i wanted to that didn't happen away expected nothing goes the way i expect it too and so i concluded that this is not anything like a psycho kinetic effect Certainly nature is not doing what I want it to. I didn't want the tumors, I thought if it was going to be successful the tumors would never grow but they grow and then they ulcerate and then they implode well that's not my doing! I didn't script this so nature has a weird sense of humor and she takes it the way she wants to go with it but the cures are not healing is not a psychokinetic effect It's not you getting what you want

18:59 At least in so far as the stages go to full cure. I mean it is interesting we find that the body does a lot of things That we don't necessarily know how to do like if you can't really beat your heart on command It just kind of happens all the time and yeah, no You can't pump blood to a certain part of your body on demand it Just it happens So the idea that you don't need to know exactly how its happening It's not that hard to believe but with results like this people are gonna want to know more about the tool that did it What can you tell us about this method? You developed and how you perfected it. Well, the method is still evolving But in the time I spent with Ben he's a weird guy, you know And among his weird qualities was an apparent ability to answer questions He didn't know anything about hmm, and I have a tendency to ask a lot of questions

19:53 So i would ask a question he give an answer neither of us understand what the hell is just set and making this reasonably long story much shorter, i asked him a whole lot of questions about how what you was doing naturally or spontaneously. Could be reproduced by other people and fast forwarding a couple thousand questions we started to get a glimpse are starting to understand what would have happened to a inexperienced novice to reproduce what he was doing just naturally and this became the method. And so the method is cold image cycling i mean that's the best method and incidentally just for anybody hearing this i don't have any proprietary secret information all the stuff published

20:44 So I have written instructions on how to do this, so i have a training audio tape on how to reproduce this effect. I give workshops teaching people how to do this. So anybody can learn you don't have...I'm not a healer but healing happens and so the method we called image cycling and probably Ben wouldn't recognize it today but its still the same plot And the general idea is this, you're going through a very very very rapid imaging process of very specific concrete things that you want. We try to start with at least 20 things, very precise so I want a blue Miata

21:31 I want a red Porsche. And i'm just giving car examples which is kind of weird for me because, I don't like cars What's a cool car? A Tesla! You know...I need a green Tesla! I am making stuff up So the first picture is me driving a green tesla The second picture is me at the top of Mount Everest The third picture is me and you know etc., etc.. And these are all end images There is nothing to do with the means to the end So for example, if you ask any group of people and I would include your listeners because i've never found an exception. If you asked any group of people what they want first of all they have difficulty coming up with 20 things And then they think I really only want three and everybody says the same three things it's really quite astonishing so for example They say I wanna be happy now that has no content right The second thing is to say I want money

22:34 And then of course they think money will make them happy too. And the third thing they say is I want to be healthy, now none of those things can go on a list because they're just vague generalities and their not end points so if you want money because you wanna buy a car it's the car you want and if you think money...if I had money I'd be able to buy the car yeah but if its the car you want it's the car that's the image. Yeah focus on the car Yeah, and how you get it whether you get it because you win the lottery or as you come into a lot of money or somebody gives you a car for Christmas. It doesn't make any difference if you got the car I want to be happy have no idea what that means you know just let me know when we're out of big green all time does that mean you wanna call so these images are very very very specific and they burned into your brain takes awhile this is not easy technique incidentally

23:31 And then you image them very, very rapidly. And I mean very rapidly. You'd never believe how rapid you can do this again. This goes to training CDs and things like that and workshops and it takes a while but by the end of the two day workshop i've got people going several thousand images second at least. And then they leave in any go practice and get really fast and so the first step is this image cycling which is pain I don't know anything about comparative healing, but I'm told there are healing techniques that you can master in five seconds and you can do everything. They're better than me. Mine is a pain and it takes a lot of practice and it's annoying and I get cursed out." So for people who are trying to kind of conceptualize this method little further would you say its more in the realm what people might think as neuro-linguistic programming? No

24:23 I think it's a matter of just grinding out practice, of a new skill. Of extremely rapid imaging and as in anything that you master becomes mindless So if your learning a new skill you start mindfully and then once you get pretty good at it then you've programmed yourself to transition into mindless So if I, you can use sports analogies. If I'm going to teach you a backhand in tennis and I feed you a backhand and you hit it in the wrong direction, I feed you a backhand, I feed you... A couple thousand feeds later, you hit it in the right direction. A couple thousand feeds later, it's starting to do what you want it to do. A couple of thousands feeds later, you can feel

25:11 And then after a while it becomes just natural flow the flow is the state you wanna be in but just like learning how to master tennis or learning how to master anything requires a lot of mindful practice before transition to mindless so when you were little kid. Trying to learn how to take your first steps you look like an idiot. Yeah, and you kept falling You got up you got falling you got up you got falling you got up you got falling And then one day phase transition than you were off and running These techniques like image cycling work roughly the same way Right on and you mentioned comparative healing and not knowing much about that of course And there is a New Age culture that talks about love and light healing the power of intention crystals Reiki, and all that stuff Do you see any connection to the method? You developed and these type of things new agers claim. I don't know enough about that world yeah, so I'm not a healer and I'm studying the stuff that I'm producing

26:15 and that I'm training other people to produce. And that fills my plate enough, I'm not in a contest with any other healing technique and I don't know...I can tell you anecdotally there's been a whole lot of people who have taken my workshop who are already trained healers. So what happens is this would be an example someone comes in They already are trained in their Reiki masters and their Jo-Rei masters, and their therapeutic touch masters. I'm not sure what else but you get the idea so they've been trained in all of these things and they actually sometimes have healing clinics themselves Sometimes they have private practices But they've been off and running and they're very different than me They're actually healers mm-hmm And they're able to do things but they're frustrated that they can't do certain things

27:07 Now, the stuff that I can do seems to be a little bit different in some cases than what they can do. So they come to me to learn mine so they're able to do what they couldn't do before. To give you an example and again this is not a contest but as far as I'm aware Reiki therapeutic touch healing touch yada yada does not seem to cure cancer For reasons that make no sense to me, in the sense that I don't really understand it. Mind fixes cancer. On the flip side mind won't affect a warp literally and so if you've got a warp and you treat using my technique and you treat for the next six days 60 days nothing happens now that's a clue

28:05 But nothing happens. Now if you do Reiki, I'm told and you just go, you know, reiki-reiki and it goes away! Now that's interesting. It is So the people who are Reiki people who haven't cured cancer they learn my method then they cure a boatload of cancers in a row On the other hand they lose the ability to do what i heard which is pretty fun so that the people who are actually healers and let's say you're a good clinician i'm not but let's say your good clinician. And the person comes to you with a war,

28:40 Well, you're probably going to want to do something like Reiki. I'm just making this up. I don't know what Reiki is but I am told that Reiki fixes warts and if you use my method and learn this crazy image cycling and practice your brains out for the next month well you are going to lose the ability to do the wart if you apply my method but you do Reiki it will go away but if someone comes with cancer you don't want to do Reiki you wanna do mine And then you become, you know... You've got another quiver in your arsenal there about what you can bring to bear on clinical cases. That I think is reasonably interesting so mine seems too... Again, I'm not schooled in comparative stuff. Mine fixes cancer, I don't know why it doesn't do warts, you know? To take two extremes we haven't had anybody fix Parkinson's.

29:32 I think that's interesting. It definitely is, and you've had some success with Alzheimer's, right? Alzheimer's we seem to be able to do. And so...I never did an Alzheimer's patient because I don't do patients. You know, I'm trying to save the rodents of the world And, you know people who do people after a while I get sick of people because they're very annoying and they join me in trying to save rodents. But people who have taught who have clinical patients all over the place they're doing Alzheimer's and I've never done one so I got a group in Germany doing Alzheimer's and they are fixing it! They got a group in Chicago and a group in San Francisco and their reporting all this stuff that I'd never tried. I think its pretty interesting and so Alzheimer

30:15 responds almost immediately and dramatically like cancer does. And again, that's another clue. Parkinson's? No! Nobody has made any inroads to Parkinson's. Cancer is a dime-a-dozen though so that's not particularly interesting but the Alzheimer's and the other stuff is pretty interesting. Haven't had really great success with diabetes. So I did it...I did a guy elderly gentleman who had lost body parts from long time you know very severe type 1 diabetes he was blind Parts of him had been amputated because of circulation complications and all this kind of stuff. And so I tried them just for yucks, and best I could do...I gave him about 50% of his sight back and about a 50% reduction in insulin He was happy but I considered it failure in the sense that he wasn't fixed

31:12 And so something's going on there. Our working hypothesis right now is that, at least in my technique it seems to be better at removing things than giving things. If you've got inflammation this stuff is unbelievably good And I did lab work at Wake Forest Medical School on inflammation. And in cell culture models, you put your hands around and do the image cycling, the inflammation all goes away 100% of it almost immediately. It's bizarre! But if you're a Parkinson's patient, you're missing something so i have a deficit If I am diabetic, I have a deficit

31:54 If I have cancer, I can take something away. If you have Alzheimer's, I can take something away." So Alzheimer's responds immediately and dramatically but age-related dementia not really. If you're just decomposing because you're old this doesn't seem to stop the decomposition if you have Alzheimer's you probably have inflammatory plaques and those go away Wow, yeah that's definitely fascinating man. So you've done 10 experiments toying with this stuff maybe more now but according to your website... Yeah I'm over 20. I think the website ...I've never seen my website but i can tell you it's outdated so there I got at least twenty plus many many many cell culture experiments Right on!

32:44 You got 20 experiments toying with this stuff. Once you discovered it, it worked what were some of the other factors and variations you decided to test out? Well as soon as something works in order to check to make sure that you're not deluding yourself one of the first things we have to do is repeat it and as you say now I'm up to at least twenty these things but I'm not doing just show that the first 19 work. I'm doing this to look at different permutations trying to unravel what the mechanism is The first thing I did once I did the initial one at Queens College was to find out if other people could do it and are they learning it as I think they're learning. If I was the only one who could do this, that's not good for my team. There is no upside for me being the only one able to do this. That's really god awful! So what I did is took two faculty members—skeptics with no experience in healing probably couldn't spell healing

33:46 Two students who thought really what do you want me to do they have no experience in this. Nothing didn't know anything whatsoever and i said would you like a volunteer, I'm gonna teach you technique and then we're gonna try to go out your cancer and they said yeah sure because it was kidding if anyone said to be all i believe that then they were excluded never work with the believer cuz they scare me So I got two faculty members, two students and we went through a training program same as my CD training program. Same as the workshops, nothing unique there and so we went through that they got mice just like I got mice coming out of the same lab They had cages of mice And the same thing happened all of them were cured! My next step was well if they're all getting cured out of this lab...I'm a skeptic it must be a bad lab so let's move to another lab

34:44 So I went to a different lab, got more untrained inexperienced volunteers. Had some other biologists set it up did it again same result did it again different people same result and you get the idea so my first thought was can I replicate this second thought was can anybody do this? Is there anything unique going on? And so it turns out I don't know whether believers can heal, but I know that non-believers could heal. Or now I can't say non-believers people who are skeptics. Skepticism is an interesting phenomenon. There are very few skeptics in my experience. I've given lectures at skeptic societies invited

35:31 And I usually start by insulting them, which is my strength. And what i do is... ...I'll walk into a gaggle of skeptics and they're all folded up you know their arms are folded their legs are folded they got a scowl on their face and I say something along lines of I'm the only skeptic in the room! Then they get mad No, we're such and such skeptic society. I said no you're really not a skeptic society or believers you actually mindless believers everybody here knows the stuff i haven't said is wrong yeah but i haven't set it yet so your your a mindless believer but you just be in the direction of my mindless belief is to disbelief so i've run into mindless believer who think everything is true and mindless believers who think everything is false

36:16 I said, how about looking at the evidence and holding off on your conclusion? Which is really what a skeptic should do. Yeah, I'm with you! So one of the experiments that I've heard that you did that I thought was most impressive in looking at different factors and conditions for how this stuff might work is something where you were in an MRI machine and had envelopes in your hand... Yeah, this goes to... I had a couple of questions going on. I've done functional MRI work and healing at the University of Connecticut Medical School and Thomas Jefferson Medical School. I also have some EEG studies but the MRI stuff, a functional MRI and probably a lot of people listening have seen pretty brain pictures kind of thing? And so you'll see this part of the brain is colored differently than that part

37:11 And they look impressive and all that stuff, but what they're really measuring is oxygenation to a particular part of the brain. And what you're assuming is that if the brain is using more oxygen, that part of the brain is more active. So I wanted to know first of all can you toggle healing? Can we measure it? In other words, If I'm sitting in an MRI or lying down in an MRI which is really ugly environment And I'm toggled and so I'm cued, okay start your cycling now stop your cycling. Start your cycling and stop your cycling you know that kind of thing? Yeah! And it turns out...I didn't think you'd be able to do that it just didn't sound human to me but went into the MRI so let's give a shot see what happens. I am usually wrong about everything so lets go test it. So I get into the MRI can we turn on or turn off and it turns out we can

38:09 And i still don't know how to think about that but at this point I have enough people who have done this that I'm reasonably confident that you can actually toggle healing on and off. And you can toggle cycling off then what did is i start volunteers into the MRI, and i would cycle on them from outside it turns out their brain turns on and off just like mine did when i was in there so what happens in my brain happens in their brain it just happened from a distance So when I realized that i can affect somebody's brain from a distance and what happens in my brain actually toggles on and off which is the real motive of functional MRI. Then the question was how much of this is conscious, how much of this is not conscious right so consciously i can turn cycling off i can turn healing on and off and i can turn your brain on and off from a distance

39:12 And in that particular case, I'm trying or I'm aware. So the next step was what happens if I'm prompted to heal? And so this is now the next phase of the study where I and other folks who know my technique would get into an MRI it's an enclosed MRI and the only thing sticking out would be a hand. Someone would put double blind envelopes into your hand and some of the envelopes had nothing in them there were shammer control of the lopes and some of the envelopes had pictures in hair samples, cancerous animals six hundred miles away got this remote that so they are horses and dogs cats goats you know things like that. And so there was a picture and it's like a little couple strands of hair. So somebody i'm gonna have nothing in them and some of the envelops had the strands of hair and the picture of the cancerous animal

40:10 When they're dropped in your hand and now you're not told to do anything, you just lie on the MRI. It turns out that you toggle on and off if there's a need represented. If nothing is in the envelope and you dropped the envelope in your hand, nothing out of the ordinary happens but if there was a picture or hair sample, not consciously but you autonomically turn it on. Your brain turns on it recognizes that there's a need there and you go into the same mode as if you were trying to heal And my conclusion from that of course is healing is not a conscious act, right? Yeah I mean people consciously try to heal but I think that's a waste of time. Mm-hmm. I don't think you're relevant to healing yeah, I mean You don't even need to see or know the target apparently in any way Nope nope nope never saw these as a sidebar the animals were cured But that wasn't the point of the experiment

41:04 So it was really does it turn on and turn off? I mean a lot of people think that you have to be in a particular state of mind or you have To feel a connection, oh you have two. You know things along those lines It turns out that that's that's not real Mm-hmm Yeah the energy susceptibility issue its you know People apparently can do it whether they feel those energies are not yeah I think we've reversed the causal sequence In our heads where people think you have to get into a particular state of mind and then healing follows. And it turns out, you don't! I have more experiments but the bottom line is this connection happens and it's a measurable connection between healer and healy turns out distance doesn't matter there's a measurable connection but you don't have to be aware

41:58 And so it's not that you have to get into a state of mind in order to heal. Healing happens and you may or may not experience it, right? So if we look at along the continuum of people sensitivity levels some people are very very sensitive and some people are insensitive bricks It turns out the bricks he'll just as well as the sensitives but the sensitives are more aware And the mistake they've made is that sense of connection that they have, that they're aware of and others aren't. Is the thing that they have to feel in order to heal and it turns out that's simply not the case. Bricks do just fine. Yeah! That's so fascinating. You mentioned the EEG studies and the kind of synchronization that seems to happen between sender and receiver can you elaborate on that a little bit?

42:59 Yeah, the EEG studies are published in the Journal of Scientific Exploration which I'd like to do a riff on the Society for Scientific Exploration in a little bit. But what I have is we had very high-end EEG equipment and we had a bunch of volunteers and volunteers would be in a separate room and we had multiple EEGs going and they were synchronized And so they're very high-end equipment and they are sampling from both people on 38 leads every 500th of a second. So we're gathering a lot of data, and in the gathering of a lotta data, when you find out what happens when someone intends on healing that other person at a distance or cycles with the intention of helping that other person, then it turns out there is a brain... It'd be close to calling it a phase lock

43:55 the brains going to synchronization on many many many multiple channels of frequency. So you're in the other room i'm in another room and i'm told ok now think connect cycle on heel and then our brains go into a phase lock Wow. Now, that doesn't have to be conscious and here we go to what's the part of the conscious mind? Well I don't think the conscious mind is all that important. Right. I make fun of the conscious mind. I call it a pea brain. I like that and I've heard you talk about the brain harmonic pattern that is created and how unique it is. Have you compared that pattern to any other altered states at all?

44:47 Well, the guy who was the head EEG guy on this study is a guy by the name of Jay Gunkelman and he's a biggie in the EEG world. He has got 19 labs and things like that. I'm not an EEG expert but I just kind of ask this be done or that be done but he is actually geek and he is aware of at least half million EEG outputs from people So he's very familiar with the field and what happened in all that other kind of stuff and he says, did you never seen a nap like this so in the five hundred thousand e gc is familiar with his never seen this and basically we get a brain harmonizing with itself.

45:34 goes into at least three part harmony i think it may be more parts of harmony that's gonna get singing a song but maybe more just outside the range of equipment to detect and then that unique signal appears in your head when we think of you with distance. And you're not trying to produce it just know if you will either going to sinker is giving to be were not sure how to think about yet Yeah, I love that aspect of it and this technique of rapid mental image cycling There is another fringe area where people talk about this kind of stuff And I know you're not a comparative guy But have you looked at the way occultist described? Magic ritual and how they work their kind of stuff because they describe it in a similar way that it's about mental imaging

46:23 Oh, is that right? Yeah. Well mental imaging you know what little I know about it is more of holding an image and mine is the opposite of holding an image Rapid. I'm talking seriously rapid yeah so if I'm going through a hundred different images and I'm going dun-dun-dun-dun-dun I'm going through much more than those hundred images with each beat mm-hmm So if you're going that fast You're not holding on to any image you can't hold onto any image because your brain is too slow at processing information. Yeah and so if it is something where, hey group of folks meditators in some other context or holding an image then its almost exact opposite what i'm doing we're not holding at all

47:20 Gotcha. It's almost like trying to induce it to your subconscious or trying to offload it to the subconscious? Yeah, it is. But it's also as you practice it and you transition to mindless again and go back to the example of either learning how to play tennis or just something perhaps more familiar the idea walking your first time you take a conscious step to take a walk and you plop, you plop, you plop then there's a phase transition where there's a sudden transformation and then walking becomes second nature, and now everybody walks around and they're not even aware they're walking. And so now after you've mastered walking, you can then walk and talk, you can walk in gesture and talk because with each mastery, you transition to mindlessness and then something else can be superimposed on that mindless skill

48:11 So when you're hitting a backhand in the middle of a match, you're not thinking about what's the first step in the back end. You're feeling a flow when you're walking. You probably pass that. You don't even know you're walking so people go walk and driving very common experience. You missed the last 25 miles. Well that doesn't mean you were a danger it means your mindless My list is a compliment now you know you go join an organization and do it practice in mindful walking will look like an idiot. Yeah so it's good to exercise the brain but it just entertainment value what's not to make your better walker,

48:51 If you're looking for walking mastery, you never pay attention. Yeah it's true! if you're looking for healing mastery, you should never pay attention to healing That is common in so many different things stand up comics I've known several of them and they always say their best sets are when it just feels automatic like they're not even there yeah You're on a roll. Exactly! You're in the flow, but if you try to be in the flow, you won't flow That's the irony If you try to walk, you're gonna fall on your face Mm-hmm...if you try to heal your just feeding the pea brain,you are not doing healing So you let it go and right now to give you an idea although Your listeners wont be able understand this you have never heard me when I was not cycling Hmm

49:39 So it would be impossible for me to calculate the rapid imaging rate that i'm doing while I am talking to you but i have not distracted in any way shape or form. When you learn my technique, will be more mindful practice and then you'll hate me and curse me out all those things but when you master it you go through that phase transition where you start to transition into mindless. Just like walking, just like, just like, but in answer your question no way do we ever hold an image

50:16 Wow. So I've also heard, you mentioned earlier healing seems to be about having a need and i've heard you say that before adding to it a need of the highest order can you elaborate on that last little caveat and maybe the insights that you've gotten that led you to that conclusion what does that necessarily mean uh having a need of the highest order? Well the first thing I'll give you just an image from some of the experiments we Imagine sitting in an animal room you're in an animal room and there's a bunch of cages around it all that kind of thing. And you got a bunch of sick mice so the mice have cancer if you put your hands around the cage, oh my swith cancer they will mean by this time its not interesting we've done this so many hundreds times they will move to your left hand. You can spin the cage

51:12 the mice don't like that but you can spend a cage and put your hands straight down the same way they were before and the mice will move to your left hand when there is no longer moved to the left hand so their responding to their need. They're taking or they can send cuz i dont have to talk themselves out of it they know naturally to go to the left hand If i run machinery in the room when im treating mice and ill give you some examples if you run a random number generator, random number generators kinda like an electronic coin flipper.

51:52 and it flips it very, very fast. And there's no pattern to it whatsoever. And this is stuff that comes out of Princeton Engineering and so they develop random number generators to test to see if consciousness can affect random number generators. Well, if you... It turns out you can't but if you run a random number generator and you treat the random number generator as if its a patient So think of like a six inch gizmo and you're putting your hands around it, like you'd put your hands around a mouse cage or you put your hands on a person. And you do the cycling, you do whatever it is that you're doing so you're treating a random number generator nothing happens out of the ordinary to the random number generator but if I treat a cage of mice in the room and I run the random number generator in the background, the random number generator goes crazy It no longer generates random numbers

52:48 That will only happen while the mice are sick. Once they're cured, that doesn't happen. If I run a geomagnetic probe which is just taken, it's a very sensitive gizmo that's measuring background geomagnetic fluctuations that naturally occur on the earth. If I treat that like I'm treating a client nothing happens but if i put a geomagnetic probe in a room and I treat a cage of mice that are sick the probe goes crazy. If the mice are cured the probe doesn't react at all. The probe and

53:27 random number generator seem to be responding to a healing phenomenon which is going on, which is driven not by my will but rather the needs of the animals and probably there's a change in physical space with your curse. So the probe knows when there's a need going on, but if I treat the probe directly nothing happens. The random number generator knows when healing is going on but if I treat the random number generator directly nothing happens. Something is responding when there is indeed presence. A second cousin of this probably twice removed, but a second cousin of this is if you treat a person and your treating them for bad knees

54:14 Well, their asthma may also clear up. So the issue of higher order needs I think goes to the body is distributing whatever it needs wherever it needs to do it. Interesting And I suspect...I mean here's among other things that occur once a mouse is cured you can take cells from that mouse and put into another mouse and it'll cure that other mouse. Geez Without the healing That's reasonably interesting. Yeah, yeah and so I don't know what the mechanism is but there is a higher order I think hierarchy of things let's say someone comes in and they have ABC and D condition well I think that ABC and D condition may all respond to the healing but it's on hierarchical sequence as the body administers whatever needs

55:14 Now, if I treat a cell culture of cancer. So I've got cancer in a petri dish and you put your hands around the dish and it's just cancer. The cancer explodes in growth. Now by explodes in growth, I'm talking about a minimum of 600% increase in the growth of cancer. It's not subtle. No what does cancer need? Well, cancer likes to grow yes? Yeah so if cancer is your client and you put your hands around your client, the question is what does your client need? Well if I put my hands around cancer the cancer grows wildly. I think that if I had this super charged cancer and I put that into a mouse the cancer would collapse because the mouse has a higher order need than the cancer. Right! I find that to be one of those interesting aspects of this thing

56:18 I've heard you say in a presentation that, in terms of the mechanism of the rapid mental image cycling, there could be other applications beyond healing. What do you think this technique could possibly do outside of repair? Well it's not a healing technique – it's a mental imaging technique which just happens to result in healing So there are many people who don't wanna heal aren't interested in healing don't need to be healed but they just want to manifest stuff in their life so they cycle because a cycle because you're selfish and they want that.

56:57 i forgot what i asked for me out of the one green tesla thank you they want a green tesla so people have gotten great actually i don't think it was gonna bring when yet but but you know say they get blue and red no like some stuff but, putting out the things that they want selfishly. whether it has anything to do with healing or not, and they're getting those things. And it works? Yeah! So it seems to work as a manifestation technique...as a mechanical manifestation technique because even a skeptic like me doesn't make any difference. They use it as a mechanical manifestation technique and one of the things that some people want to manifest is healing so if I have a problem and I have a bad knee

57:40 And my image is of me, you wanna get past the knee. The images of me playing tennis that means my knee is fixed. The images of me skiing moguls well that means my knees are fixed so they're doing it cause they want to fix knees they're doing because they wanna green tesla their doing it because whatever there for selfish reasons are I love selfishness. Who doesn't? All healing should be selfish Mm-hmm. Well, I mean that is so fascinating that this technique has That kind of application I mean that would kind of make this rapid mental image cycling Technique one of the most powerful things on the planet really? I can't imagine not doing it Yeah You know forget healing. I just say I can't imagine not doing it I Can't imagine why anyone wouldn't do it other than it's a pain in the butt to learn right you know But so was hitting a backhand

58:35 It just depends. Do you want to hit a backhand? Well, if so you're going to need to put in some time people don't naturally hit tennis backhands I love it man and So as we get into uh to the end here just to play devil's advocate now Of course the data and the research papers they speak for themselves And i'm not an expert so that's a little over my head already but i see a lot of big words and long sentences and it looks very serious But I've looked into detractors of your work too in preparation for this and I really don't see much there but I do see some claims that because you are primarily a Sociologist that this might be some sort of social study on the placebo effect or the power of belief Have you heard that criticism yourself?

59:23 Not as a criticism. I've heard it certainly in my volunteers, if I have a volunteer doing the mice experiments they wonder what i'm really doing and so a very common theme is that they'll independently come to the conclusion because you know everything they're asking them to do is crazy! You know? I get that... They actually think I'm doing studying gullibility Yeah, that'll give you an idea how little they believe but they actually think I'm doing a study in gullibility so You know If yeah the cancer gets cured what can I tell ya? And the volunteers who get involved in this when they see these positive results They get a little they get pretty angry at you right for shaking their worldview. Oh

1:00:10 Well, yeah. I mean you know to a certain extent i victimized them because they're going through life as normal people they're not into the world of hocus-pocus and some lunatic comes along tells them to make a list check it twice cycle it thrice and then they cure cancer what do you what do you do with that? They were not seeking healing And they were selected because they laughed in my face when I told them what i wanted them to do so again if i go looking for a volunteer, and the volunteers oh yes yes i know that stuff where i study or i believe that's not why i run away from. And so these poor people are just end up you know what do i do with this and reality is it's pretty disruptive to their world

1:00:54 Yeah, what are you gonna do it the results speak for themselves but man yeah But but you know You talk about detractors so I imagine me speaking in a medical school and I'm given the technical data And they're there They're trying to cut my knees out for three hours and I'm okay if they cut my knees out because if I'm doing something wrong I'm not defensive about it. I'll say thank you for pointing out my mistake. Yeah So far, I guess standing ovations. Man! I just...I would love to see this kind of thing hit the mainstream. I would love to see more and more people adopt this worldview and see it as something that's actually legitimate but i guess we got more work to do Well, I'd like to see people who will stop defending beliefs Yes Amen You know relax all your beliefs are wrong

1:01:40 Even the belief that all beliefs are wrong is wrong. We don't know what we're talking about, let's have some fun and let's have a little excitement in the world and lets follow and lets play and lets tinker and then lets question everything Cheers to that. Yeah, yep dr. Bill Bankston Thanks so much for doing this I think we turned a lot of minds to mush out there always a good sign Before we really call it in can you tell people where dive into more the research for themselves learn how to You know learn more about the method and keep tabs on what you're doing sure The your give me a trick question now like what's my website? It's called bankston research calm mm-hmm

1:02:26 No i say since i don't remember what it is because i don't really maintain that website but banks and research dot com the book. Which will just tell you a story like once upon a time, is called the energy cure not available yet on amazon or sounds true then if u wanna learn the method itself Also available from Amazon or Sounds True is a six CD set entitled Hands-On Healing, A Training Course in the Energy Cure. And that is actually designed to teach you the stuff and on the website presumably or is also a way to find out where I give maybe four workshops a year that's it rest of time in lab but i give me before workshops here, i have one coming up in marin county and february pretty sure.

1:03:20 And then i go to germany and then i got it but its on the website so if you wanna learn how to do it and skeptically that's a wonderful thing if u want to do what you can check in on the website. Add little tell ya how to do it if you wanna do it on your own you wanna come to workshop you want me to watch you wanna Again, I don't have any private secrets. I don't have any proprietary knowledge. I'm not the great guru. I'm just kind of muddling through life and I'm saying this is an interesting thing come play with me Yeah Awesome man well thanks again really impressive stuff paradigm changing for sure keep doing what you do out there all right man Thanks, you got it see ya

1:04:01 Alright, alright, alright. Super happy to have gotten Dr Bill on the show Fairly unique episode I'd say Probably one of the most scientific approaches To some fringe healing science that i've seen I know Bill says he's not a comparative guy Doesn't know about these other fields like magic and NLP And that's cool But we do So when you're putting this big puzzle together The good doctors piece is definitely useful The fact that his technique revolves around rapid mental imaging is way more interesting to me than the term hands-on healing suggests, and that was really the aha moment where I thought okay this fits right in with what a lot of higher side guests talk about. There is something there when it comes to strengthening your ability to clearly visualize things and your meditation practice, your magical rituals whichever you want to do or both, and then getting tangible real world results

1:04:54 Obviously I don't know exactly how it works, but each guest we have that has some new approach to this realm gets us closer to understanding it. Right? So I loved it and I think he's a fun guy on air knows his material well and hopefully you were entertained and maybe even motivated to dig deeper I am meaning to get the audio CD and really put some effort into it, but i do think a person can put two and two together just with what they heard today and start experimenting whenever they like. And this is just a good goal-forming practice anyway! I know a lot of people who aren't happy in their current place in life but have no goals or plans for fixing it They might've watched nine hour long episodes of Westworld But when you ask them what THEY want out of their life... You get a blank stare

1:05:37 You're never going to make a bad situation better if you're not giving it your conscious attention and maybe even the unconscious's attention. So think deeply about what you want, picture it and start moving towards it because I think the healing stuff is great but I'm kind of more interested in the mechanism itself and these other applications of it. And even if you try this and find that quote doesn't work are you really gonna be mad about taking time to define your goals? Wouldn't you be a little bit better off anyway I really do think our subconscious wants to help us manifest reality. It's sitting right there, just being underutilized and maybe other spirits are too just waiting in the wings but you have to do that little bit of preliminary work to engage those things so all that said i do have a couple of announcements now that we're two hours deep into this thing smart way to communicate with an audience right

1:06:31 But number one, listeners sometimes ask me about real meatspace meetups or some type of higher side event and I think we're going to test the waters a little bit. I'm actually going to be out in Denver this weekend to hang out with a couple friends of mine, one being Kyle who long time Higher Side listeners should remember. Of course he recently joined on the 3 hour Q&A show I put up for Plus People last week It's his birthday and we're gonna be drinking a little drink, smoking a little smoke and going deep down the rabbit hole pretty much all weekend. But on Friday specifically January 20th motherfucking inauguration day We're letting any local higher side chatters know that we will be at one of my favorite Denver hangouts A place called Mario's Double Daughters if you want to come out and say hey! We'll be there at 9 o'clock probably hang out for a couple hours And just see if anyone comes out

1:07:22 It's not a big deal, I'm not speaking or anything. I won't have a table...I'm not even telling them we're going to be there Super casual! I wouldn't expect a ton of people but it does seem like we've had a few confirmations via Facebook already So we'll see how crazy it gets There is is We are going to test the higher side clout You can find out what I look like from Facebook if you need too And just find me Come on up and say hey, don't make it weird. I'm sure we'll all have a great time and i hope to see you there Also the plus forum is under construction We're in the middle of porting over to a much more robust forum platform And the new rule going forward

1:08:01 so that we can increase participation on those forums is going to be that if you sign up for THC+, you're going to get a plus show login, of course. And then a lifetime forum login. So even if you just sign up for a couple of months listen to a few shows that you were interested in and then cancel You'll lose access to the show, but you'll always be able to participate in the higher side forums. I think that's a nice little bonus and it's having a healthy amount of plus memberships that allows me to do these things and make the experience better overall I did just put a lot of effort into revamping the t-shirts and launching the higher side clothing so i could be putting out a better product there. Super happy with how that's gone, I think the designs are really amazing and rival pretty much any T-shirt brand designs that's out there And I can say that without being a pompous asshole because I didn't do the artwork! I can't draw anything...I just think it's awesome

1:08:57 So there's that, but I am now putting a good chunk of money into rebuilding a better forum. And I've got quite a few other lofty goals and ideas for this thing so please sign up for the Hiresite Chats Plus if you appreciate what i do! I say this all the time but we tip waiters five bucks for a one-hour meal and that's all I ask for access to literally everything I do I don't try to sell you too hard. I usually let the free show portion go well over an hour, and then continue to make improvements when I have that financial fuel in the tank

1:09:35 As for today's Plus Show, anyone who heard the first hour can probably guess where we went in the second. But we got deeper into the method Dr. Bankston has come up with and how it's been applied just like his work as a whole gives us insight into the phenomenon itself and what's going on getting into the details of the individual studies he's done and the different applications and trials they've had It all helps to get your mind around what I think is a fundamental aspect of reality that we either forgot or have been misdirected from. Who knows how developed this was in the past? We have indications that the ancients had some knowledge of this stuff, but who knows how far it could really go if it got the right attention in the modern world! So if you'd like to hear more of today's chat or any of the several hundred I've done at this point sign up at TheHigherSideChatsPlus.com

1:10:23 And if you're in the Denver area on Inauguration Day, come out to Mario's Double Daughters at 9pm and let's rage. That's it for your Humble Host this week! We're getting closer all the time but now it's your move Keepers of the Consciousness Secrets... You're fuckin'... Because you- Eyesight spares- Watch out! I lied

1:11:14 I can't stand running around Can't stay out in the noontown It's too late High fives, now run You've waited to do the time

1:12:42 I ain't gonna take none of your fooling around And I can't stand no one putting me down Yeah, yeah, yeah This is about you and still mine

1:13:28 The high sides spell on you You're not afraid to do the time Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh