Dr. Joanna Kujawa | Sexual Alchemy, Erotic Rapture, & The Goddesses of Eros

01:36 Doing the Thing from sunny San Diego, I'm Greg Carlwood and we have unpacked many pockets of suppressed people knowledge and empowering magic on this long road to the promised land. But a lesser explored subject that touches on all three of these things is the suppression of Eros female sexuality and the divine feminine Clearly the Catholic Church in Western society as a whole has done its damnedest to keep women down a peg or two As for years, they were only allowed in supporting roles from nuns to secretaries nurses and housewives. And it's even been said that the Holy Trinity itself of Father Son and Holy Ghost is curiously missing a crucial element to fill out that famous family History isn't no short supply of eras and instances of telling women to cover up either as if intimidated by the allure of their sexuality and for years most academic studies of sexuality were four men by men

02:29 Well, if the Divine Feminine promotes love, passion and compassion it's not hard to see how that might conflict with a culture conditioned to value brute strength, domination and a dog-eat-dog competitive mentality hellbent on war after war in a cold capitalist approach to everything. And when it comes to sex itself or sex as a vehicle for enlightenment we've also been left completely in the dark taught that its wrong and dirty and we best just stay away yet it is why were all here Much like psychedelics, there are approaches to sexuality and techniques that can blow the doors of perception wide open and give one the keys to the mental prison that has been crafted for us. And of course, that's something the authorities have spent large amounts of energy trying to keep at bay! Well today we're talking to Dr. Joanna Kujawa, the author of a very interesting new book entitled The Other Goddess Mary Magdalene & The Goddesses Of Eros & Secret Knowledge

03:24 She's been digging deep into this stuff for many years as she received her BA and MA from the Pontifical Institute for Medieval Studies at the University of Toronto, Canada. And her PhD from Monash University in Melbourne Australia. She has been an active academic for over two decades using her scholarly training to investigate topics other academics often pass over An attitude we can certainly appreciate around here, so let's do it! The other goddess author, sacred feminine scholar and dedicated spiritual detective Dr. Joanna Kujawa Welcome to the Higher Side Hi Greg that was a wonderful introduction thank you so much

04:03 happy to be here thank you i try to get my worked up because you know there's a lot of things trying to get people attention these days but. I am certainly looking forward this big thanks to mcgill connor for putting us in touch, you had mentioned me that you heard the interview i did with alan greenfield about sex magic and the central secret of secrecy societies secret society is another hierarchy that women are not allowed into And you made some good points about how there is a light side to sex magic and sex driven enlightenment, I guess we could say. Yes. And the reason sexuality is so suppressed it doesn't have to be all dark and salacious as its usually presented. And that sex magic stuff might be provocative for shows like this but it's certainly only half the story. It's a big part of what has motivated this area of study for you and the book right?

04:55 Correct. And you know it also that's why this book, although it is research-based especially the first part of Via Vigores is very personal because my experience of sexuality was different and I started to look at esoteric traditions that explore sexuality as a means of enlightenment such as for example Esoteric Tantra so I thought There is something into this that is really uncovered. And when I started to look into early Christianity, and also Sumerian traditions and Egyptian traditions and Hindu tradition... When I talk about Tantra,

05:34 The classic tantra of Kashmir Shaivism which is very different than for example Chinese Tantra, which is Taoist, has completely different goals. They do not include enlightenment and are mostly focused on longevity or Western Tantra which is usually called Neo-Tantra, which basically means that In some ways, they want to focus on sacred sexuality but it's really about improving your sexual life with your partner and this is not what classic Tantra is about. And as I was studying this, I started to notice the connection of Mary Magdalene and goddesses of Sumer so let me know where you would like me to start this journey for your show?

06:17 Well, I'm glad you mentioned what you mentioned there because when people hear Tantra they sometimes think Kama Sutra and obviously those are two totally different things that don't even have the same approach. It isn't about heightening pleasure with a partner it is about enlightenment and that is a significant difference right? Yes, absolutely. And that's fine! That is why we have Kama Sutra and Kama Sutra is a wonderful piece of work and I'm all for people having some fun you know and deepening their intimacy and sexual pleasure but the classic Tantras goals are completely different it is basically using sexuality especially female sexuality

07:00 when during intimate act with a man to reach heightened states of consciousness. For example, let me start right from the beginning. So when I was living in Melbourne for about a year and a half, I was studying an esoteric work from Kashmir Shaivism Tantra Loka which was written by 10th century Indian philosopher known as Abhinavagupta. Abhinavagupta was basically like Einstein of his own times because he wrote about everything. He's this kind of genius that happens once every few centuries And chapter 29 of Tantra Loka, which is the light on tantras. It's about the use of

07:44 sexual magic or sexuality, you know he wouldn't use the word magic but sexual rituals for the purpose of enlightenment. However he was not the first one so to speak, he was the first one who wrote it down because I would like to also honor that tradition long tradition ancient tradition of women yoginis and dakini's who actually introduced this tradition to our system belief for example there was almost a mythological figure Arda Triambaka, who was the daughter of great sage Triambaka. And she actually came up with this ritual of using female sexuality for the purpose of enlightenment and then there was a long line of Dakinis and Yoginis who passed on this tradition orally

08:33 because they didn't write and you know, they just passed from one woman from one yogini to another. And then in Tibetan Buddhist tradition, they were called Dakinis. They're also known for possessing other powers because when you commit yourself fully to spiritual practice, you start to develop but you should not focus on it. There's a warning here, but you start to develop certain qualities which in this tradition are called siddhis which in Western traditions would be called magic right? So for example the Dakini is well known for moving between dimensions being able to be in two places at the same time and so on. But it was just a byproduct of this

09:13 The goal of this tradition was to basically reach enlightenment, to be one with the Divine Mind through sexual bliss. by use of female sexuality. And I love this part, you know, of Tantra Loka which says that once this happens, you will be walking like gods and goddesses on earth because you have an experience of a divine mind. You cleanse the doors of perception. You see the beauty of everything that is around you and you will see we are just spiritual beings

09:49 in this dimension, but also the different dimensions open up for you. And I know this for a fact because myself had this kind of experience when I was studying it as I mentioned earlier for a year and a half with a translator of his work who coincidentally is a Catholic priest who is a Sanskrit scholar and he did a PhD on this. And I studied it with a Tibetan monk who just escaped from Tibet now has a successful meditation center and so on near Melbourne and another Swami. However, we did not practice it we just studied this work which was just translated by the scholar that I mentioned before and I'm not sure if you want me to talk about but when i was studying it I had a spontaneous experience of which these works are talking having said so I was already also initiated into the tradition So I went through the process of initiation because I was already committed seeker

10:45 Yes, I definitely want to talk to you about that personal experience and get into it pretty early in this because it's probably the most provocative thing in the whole book. But as for your personal history...I guess I wanted to go back even further than the study of Tantra Loka and that provocative chapter 29 because I've heard you say you were born in Poland—and I have a Polish side of my family! I called my grandparents Buzia and Dzadza but I've heard you say that you were born into a society that was both communist and orthodox catholic, so you got an early crash course in brainwashing and propaganda. And i like that but elaborate on that background a bit and some of the realizations you had about the church and authority before even your academic career began

11:31 Thank you so much, Greg for this question. So yes because also people may wonder about my accent so... Yes I was born in Poland and it was a very strange place at that time. I'm sure it is very different now because it was intensely communist and intensely Catholic And my family was intensely Catholic as well and for a long time I was devout Catholic As a little girl I used to go to these beautiful churches in Poland Baroque churches with beautiful frescoes and I always saw the paintings of Virgin Mary, Mother Mary or Virgin Mary which is actually the dominant deity in Poland. People usually pray to Virgin Mary so I had this already exposure to the Divine Feminine but as I started to grow up and started to feel the sweetness of Eros, I started to wonder how virginity thing started

12:26 I started to question it, it stopped making sense to me. And as I was going through the churches, I noticed that somewhere usually in the naves on the side there was this other very prominent woman but she was kind of pushed aside and it was Mary Magdalene and I could see already then although I believed the whole Catholic story about then not anymore about Mary Magdalene you know that she was a prostitute which is Now we know historically is not true. But I noticed that she was probably the closest person to the teacher or Jesus, but somehow she was vilified always portrayed in this kind of demeaning position you know almost in the position of rejection She was a sinner but somehow even then although I did not know the full story then I thought she was a very interesting person

13:19 So, and I thought... And of course it was obvious that the rejection in the church and in human mind of Mary Magdalene despite her prominence had to do something with her sexuality and her connection with Jesus. Well that is a hell of a hunch, that really sends you down a rabbit hole. But yeah I grew up Catholic as well and later you look back on it and it's so weird your on your knees saying im not worthy father im a sinner kissing the priest hand its just really fucked stuff to be making kids do or for anyone to go through you look up to your parents who

14:00 teach you the ways to be in the world and your parents are Catholic, so you're going to church. You're like I guess this is normal? I don't know but yeah a lot of kids they start to see through it but hit them Sunday after Sunday after Sunday for years and it just normalizes what's really strange ritual behavior that puts you on a lower platform. It makes you feel dirty already. You are saying that you're a sinner right out of the gate before you can even speak or walk That's right It really screws with you mentally, I think. That's where the Catholic guilt idea comes from. I think so! So you know i had the same moment that you spoke about that one day it was already in Toronto

14:41 I was already in my 20s and I was on my knees in the church, and I said, Father, I'm not worthy. And then it just hit me why am I not worthy? Why am I behaving like a slave? Why am I on my knees even early Christian paintings actually not paintings but carving show people praying standing up with their hands spread open to the divine energy opening up to the flow of energy of this world you know to the joy of connecting with the Divine. And here I am, like begging for forgiveness! I have not done anything yet and i will tell you it's really funny...I was living in a committed relationship with a man in Toronto for many years and by all means it was a marriage we just didn't have

15:27 church wedding, but I was that Catholic at the time. And you know when I got my degree everybody went to church because it was Pontifical Institute right? and i was the only one who didn't go for the communion what they call the holy communion because I thought I was a sinner... Because I was not married in a church You know, like this kind of brainwashing. Absolutely right? Absolutely! Like I'm just not worthy because I didn't do something they said I should be doing Yes and i think that's good context. I think a lot of people who did grow up similarly will resonate with that and let's get into that Crazy personal experience so the first part of your book is largely about that and i really want to make sure we got into it early because when were talking about biblical texts in the history of religion, goddesses can be easy for non religious people or ex-religious people to feel as if. Why should I care about this stuff they took up enough my time and did enough damage

16:24 But when the listeners hear about this experience you had, it'll be pretty self-evident why it's important because something was hidden from us. It seems yes absolutely so when I was studying chapter 29 as I said for a year and a half we were meeting to the study group who are meeting once a week spontaneously I had this experience so I described in quite detail in the book And it's quite interesting in a sense that I actually spontaneously also not intentionally fulfilled all the criteria because tantra loka is very provocative work, especially chapter 29. So as we are saying before it is not about improving your sexual life, it is about reaching enlightenment and it is also about

17:09 you know, sexual ritual which should happen ideally with someone to whom you're not emotionally attached. And I know that people are cringing now because it sounds like such a decadent thing but There are reasons behind it. You shouldn't be emotionally attached to this person in the sense that if you are emotionally attached, if you want to create a long-term relationship with this person then there's lots of baggage attached to this. You want to please each other, you have some agendas towards each other which are conscious or unconscious and the purpose of the whole ritual is about you focusing

17:49 entirely on the purpose of reaching expanded consciousness, expanded sense of consciousness. So I'm not saying here that you cannot be in a committed relationship and do this but then you have to be really spiritually evolved to be able to focus on this and forget your past and not worry about the future and being open to whatever happens after that. So for most couples it is very difficult, I think you probably agree right? Because there's lots of bonding us together and that's normal and appropriately healthy and so on So at that time, and I'm just completely exposing myself here. So at the time very unusually, I had a very casual sexual relationship simply because I was getting over somebody with whom I had a long term and very passionate and important relationship in my life

18:41 So, in a sense I fulfilled the criteria which were basically you're a seeker. You initiated it. You studied the scripture, the tantric scripture and you are not connected to your partner in a great emotional way because we just liked each other right? That was just an attraction. And this is what happened basically. I'm not going to explain that graphic details but during the lovemaking I started to feel Kundalini energy waking up in me. And I'm saying it with a little bit of caution because some people say like, Oh, I'm so tired over this new age yoga, Kundalini stuff but what is Kundalini really? It is called in Tantra Loka, it's basically your life and

19:27 energy. This is the divine spark within you, but unlike in Gnosticism that sometimes the divine spark is understood as knowledge only this is a living knowledge something that is wiser and bigger than you but lives within you so it would be like the divine spark but its also very vital It's not just intellectual if I make myself clear Sure And according to classical Tantra everybody has it It is basically represented as a serpent at the bottom of your spine. And through sexual rituals or actually through even, you know,

20:05 last full sex, you know it could even happen like that. This energy can be awakened at the bottom of your spine and I started to feel this energy moving and it's a really strange feeling because people ask me so was it like you or was it some other entity within you? And it really feels like both because it was me but almost evolved me if you can imagine this it was, it was me but it was me that was so much wiser and so much more powerful. So it does most almost like me in my full potential but not the me that I am at the moment right? In limited meat was unlimited to me and started to move upwards towards my spine exploded in my heart and actually when I physically You know, I was

20:58 lit up, you know? Like you could see it physically. Even I could see like there was suddenly light in the room. A physical glow, you're saying? Yeah, a physical glow and we are not talking about kind of sexy glow, you know? We're talking about like energy... You know it is just like a lamp right? Physical glow and this is- The man was just like fortunately he had some spiritual understanding and he realized what is going on and what happened as described actually in the scriptures that a woman is the carrier of this energy and this energy through sexual acts spills on the man. So, a woman needs a man to wake up with energy in her and then she spews it over to a men so they both get their experience of divine consciousness. It's kind of very masculine feminine thing going on here. And then he started... We went into like meditative

21:50 And he was blown away, of course at first. Meditative state however the energy started to proceed and then move towards my forehead and then it stopped there it stopped there and exploded again, you know. And I again kind of lit up physically lit up and we went into this meditative state which lasted for a very long time but it's not only that it is a meditative state...I started to perceive reality obviously not now but then when if this happened as energy so I just saw basically particles of energy around me

22:29 I realized, I had experience of the world not being material so to speak because we usually speak about spirit and matter which is a very kind of materialistic polarity. But this was more like it was an experience of energy what quantum physicists are talking about. So I just saw particles of energy around myself And what was interesting about it, that people say how do you know that it wasn't just orgasm? You know. And I say I know because this energy was very conscious. It was wise. It was powerful. You know, it was bigger than me. It was moving from me spilling upon the man and also by the time he got to my forehead

23:13 It kind of paused for a moment almost like thinking what's next, you know? Am I going to leave it here and let them have a good time or am i going to give them like an experience of cosmic consciousness And obviously decided to give us this spiritual experience, although it goes beyond I think distinction between spiritual and material. And this bliss lasted for a very long time and you know, I remember days later standing at the bus stop being completely actually almost dysfunctional because I just see energy around myself. Wow! You know? Just outlines of people and objects so it is a little bit like they say in the Gospel of Thomas

23:55 Or even Blake said, you know cleansing your doors of perceptions and this is what happened. And this is what in chapter 29 is promised you'll be walking like gods and goddesses on the Earth because you will enter what they called goddess consciousness. So, you're beyond the normal distinctions of matter and spirit. Right, right. Wow! That is such a wild experience I've heard you call it erotic rapture which is a really great term that I like and you say this was spontaneous and not intentional

24:31 With the partner that is you know casual based on last that's a prerequisite but was there something in the experience that you think triggered it was there something different about the lovemaking session on that day. No, there was nothing different about it. Except that the only thing that was different is that I actually didn't expect it because I was just coming back through a study of sacred text, tantric texts And a friend, one of the male friends with whom I studied dropped me off at my place. And the man that was dating then was waiting for me and you know and I didn't even expect it. So there's nothing unusual about lovemaking except that I was imbued with teachings if I can say because we were just after the study session and I was such

25:26 committed student of this. I really wanted to understand everything, what is going on in Tantraloka and it's an extremely difficult text to read. It is encoded for several reasons because it was being practiced by Abhinava Gupta and other Brahmins which were completely forbidden because they have to have an excellent morally proper life. No sex or just sex with their wives, no wine and no meat and so on. And the ritual actually if you do the ritual as it is described which we didn't do this, it is supposed to drink wine with menstrual blood and when you do all of these forbidden things for religious purposes. So it's an act like a rebellion against

26:18 all the rules, so to speak. To go beyond all the rules and to go straight to the divine mind. So apart from that fact that I was still... Every sacred text has an energy So if you really connect with the text, if you are really devotional in this text and devotional in the sense that you're not praying to this but you giving your energy to this. You study this with great passion and devotion meant by devotion I mean you really want to understand what is conveyed there then the texts gives you this energy as well it's a reciprocity between new and the sacred text and anybody who studies some people have it with Rumi poems

27:02 There's certain energy that they give you, this kind of text. So this is the only thing I can think about without just coming back from a study session and this is when it happened but nothing physical and that's why when I was trying to describe this experience I wanted to write an article, you know, to a male magazine. They said, Oh this is great stuff but can you tell us what you did physically? And I said, I can't because it was just nothing, it was normal, you know, it wasn't normal intercourse. Well, It's all interesting because you mentioned doing some things that are considered taboo, the drinking of wine and menstrual blood and this sort of stuff well when I talk to people who are

27:45 Discussing sex magic in a darker way like in a provocative secret society way it does include these sorts of protocols and that's where people start to think oh this is blasphemous and dark and evil because your. Going with all these taboos but it's like blasphemous to who the catholic church i mean are they the authority on morality and then i think that some skeletons in the closet if we're gonna consider them to be gatekeepers of knowledge more than anything, start an enlightenment too it starts to be like wool let's reverse engineer doll and how did these certain protocols become bad evil.

28:25 It's like it seems kinda monday and you might say it's a little gross that you don't wanna do it but. It's not evil i mean there is definitely distinction between, gross any and evil but it just like where did these ideas come from when they institute in the catholic church says dont doing this stuff and this stuff leads to spiritual experience leads to consciousness expansion enlightenment it's like well You know why did they say not to do these things it's also kinda like psychedelics i don't want you to take psychedelic because it opens the doors of perception and, it's like there is many paths that lead to enlightenment and they tried to gate keep all of them i just wasn't aware of this sexual one and it started make me think i wonder if the institution and sacrament of marriage itself.

29:15 is a way to keep people from this experience. I'm happy in my marriage, but you said that one of the protocols is you shouldn't do this with the person that you have deep love with and so that's another thing if you say hey you gotta get married when you turn 18 and then ever get divorced going straight to hell see better not it's like well there's not a lot of time to have such an experience than erotic rapture under those conditions That's a very deep and interesting question that you gave me, and very appropriate. So there is context to all of this. And yes you are right with everything you said however you can do it with your partner under the conditions that

29:56 your focus is on expansion of consciousness and on detachment, which may be very difficult in a relationship or the long-term relationship. That's why it is easier to achieve this kind of state of consciousness with somebody whom you don't have this kind of attachment. However when we talk about menstrual... So there are few aspects to what you just said. However when we are talking about drinking wine with menstrual blood which we didn't do it right? So it's when you do it in a ritualistic way, which we didn't. For us, it was just spontaneous. So the reason why they did it wasn't just to be gross because in Hinduism and in every religion really not only in Catholicism not only in Hinduism women are not and female energy and especially female sexuality is very tightly controlled. And this is what we have to ask ourselves why? And I think the answer is that this

30:53 power. This is energy, this is a huge energy and they just decided to use this energy it's like a nuclear weapon you can use it for good you know nuclear power or for bad right so they just decided uses something that is so powerful like female sexuality when it is fully awakened this can take us like a fast rocket to God Having said so, you know this menstrual blood it was a ritual too. I honor this feminine energy Mm-hmm. I am NOT rejecting it anymore

31:33 What is feminine, even in church fathers I read that a woman is just a piece of meat and blood and completely vile. They actually wrote about it you know in early Christian writings throughout Middle Ages until recently so what Tantra does actually it reverses everything upside down so what is being normally considered as lower, they make it high. So they said no I honor feminine energy. I can even drink wine of menstrual blood to honor what feminine energy has that's why part of tantra loka is about drinking sexual fluids

32:20 It is about oral sex, very deep oral sex on the feminine because they say that feminine sexual organs represent the motion of the universe which contracts and expands. So there's a whole philosophy behind it and it also acts as rebellion against this prohibition but it's only about marriage, that Eros is bad. That the feminine is bad so it is tantricas and there was a very also radical group of tantricas called Kapalikas who took it to the really weird level but it is basically an act of devotion of using female energy to become one with God. So it's not just so it is gross,

33:07 I honor what is normally considered gross. I honor what is normally rejected." Does it make sense? And also, it's true and I didn't look there because other people do it very well and I wanted to focus on the positive side of this because it was used as a form of enlightenment but yes, it is uncertain that it's used in some dark societies because they know that it is a great power So they use it to that dark ends. So my question is, why not use it for good ends? Right, right, especially that it was it was, it was actually invented for that purpose and then like with everything you know the powers at hand, they take something good, you know an hijack it right because they want money they want power God knows what this you

34:01 monsters want. But the purpose of this was not dark, the purpose was so you walk like gods and goddesses on earth in consciousness not so you make money and enslave other people. Right right well Catholicism has often been described as a corporate religion obviously it is like a business more than anything If you can get direct spiritual experience, then what do you need them for? So any avenue to get there had to be removed. And then we are the liaison to God just give us a couple of bucks and will tell you your forgiven and all will be well. I like this phrase in your book where you say from Kali to Aphrodite

34:52 from shakti to anana we descend into the underworld of creative chaos and back into the wombs a forgotten stargates, can that's just very provocative phrasing i assume you're referencing to the very experience you described earlier but who is up for gotten stargates that's awesome you know so often these magical techniques. We're talking about remote viewing astral travel telepathy these are like mental effects that fall into the umbrella of magic and so yeah i guess it's just there are sexual methods of getting there as well and maybe the womb itself is a stargate we're learning. I just think that's really interesting

35:37 Yes, I think so. And you're correct when you say that this is just one of many methods and Abhinava Gupta says the same right? So Tantra Loka is a big work and chapter 29 is just one of many chapters but the reason why people... we started to focus on verse 1 it is because sexuality such a rejected thing right? He says no even sexuality can be the stargate And the reason why I started to look at this target is because I then started to look at the lineage of goddesses in the West, that erotic goddess. It started with Mary Magdalene for me and I made a connection-and I'm not the first one in this sense admit this-to connection to other ancient goddesses such as Anunnaki Goddess Nimna, the

36:25 Inanna, the Assyrian Inanna and Egyptian Isis in Mary Magdalene. And they carry the same symbolism which is you know they carry all higher magic and also erotic symbolism there. They're always present about you know at the process of resurrection either they resurrect someone else their partner or even themselves so that was definitely a theme and yet consistently, these goddesses women or priestesses because somebody had a conversation recently about Mary Magdalene. Why do you call her goddess and so on? And we can get into this if you want to but basically they were the stargates there was some kind of necessary element that which is a feminine element for people to go through the Stargate opening of dimensions

37:17 And these women who were part of this ritual, part of this program so to speak. Of this training were called prostitutes, they would call harlots and they were demeaned. So this in itself is quite interesting that women who carried the secret knowledge that had to do something with Eros resurrection passing between dimensions were so vilified by mainstream religions. This in itself is an interesting concept to explore. Yeah, well there's probably a lot of ego and jealousy involved there when it comes to men studying this thing if there is some feminine gift as you refer to it in some areas that only a female can give an enlightening experience

38:06 well you know they're gonna be mad about that certain people are gonna be upset about the specially people in positions of authority because they can't access it and they can really gate keep it except to suppress it and make it seem dirty, and slander the people who do have that which brings us to mary magdalene most people obviously as you say no or as a horror prostitute but you talk about. Hi jack that happened and that was actually much later in the original context for her. It really wasn't like that and you could go a bit further talk about the nasty text cuz they say something totally different about ur and there's actually a gospel of mary surprisingly right that's right,

38:54 So it is quite interesting because my first encounter with a different Mary Magdalene was in Jerusalem, in the Russian Orthodox Church on the Mount of Olives when I noticed this now very famous painting where she's standing there with her hand extended and with an egg in her hand. And there is a medieval legend about that which I'm not going to cover because I think But it reminded me of other goddesses that I mentioned before, especially with Nimna, Inanna and Ishtar. eyes that are portrayed in a similar way and I thought they are standing with their hands extended with the gift to humanity. And what is this gift, right? And this is how the search started but originally when we go back to Christianity Mary Magdalene was not considered to be a prostitute In fact Mary Magdalene was not considered to be a prostitute until exactly 591 in the 6th century when Pope Gregory the first made

39:52 I would say great, maybe that's why he is called also the Great, made a scriptural mistake and conflated Mary Magdalene with the woman sinner mentioned in the canonical Gospels. First of all... So it was Homily 33, 591. And there is no evidence in the Gospel about this. First of all, the woman sinner was not called Mary was not called Mary Magdalene, she's unnamed and even if she and Mary Magdalene were the same woman although there is no evidence for this the word prostitute which is foreign in greek was never used in the bible. Not even once! The word used towards this woman Sine is actually Hermatolos which means

40:38 Now, on the scene about somebody who broke a Jewish law and it could be anything. Maybe she didn't pay her taxes so she's not even an adulteress. She is not a prostitute and she is not called Mary Magdalene. So the whole thing is very flimsy and even the Catholic Church in 1969 admitted that there was no scriptural evidence for Mary Magdalene to be a prostitute or to be this woman. So that in itself is interesting. And then I started to look into Gnostic gospels, so for example the Gospel of Mary Magdalene was discovered in 19th century Egypt and there's an interesting story behind it however in this gospel she's portrayed as the

41:19 most entrusted disciple of Jesus with whom he shared his esoteric teachings. And in fact, his other disciples especially Peter and this is very consistent in Gnostic writings that Peter is very jealous of Mary Magdalene you know so because if he asks how did teacher tell you all these things? How come we don't know about it because Gnostics believe that Jesus gave three levels of teachings. The simple teachings that we have in the Bible, which were for people around the Lake of Galilee where he taught and then a second level to his disciples and then third level he gave Mary Magdalene and some scholars also believe to John who were his most advanced teaching...disciples I'm sorry. And in other works such as the Gospel of Philip she is called

42:09 Jesus is koinonos, which means his special partner. And the same, she is also his favorite disciple in Pistis Sophia which is another Gnostic work. Which is a kind of question and answer session between Jesus and His disciples where disciples ask 42 questions and out of these 42 questions 39 are asked by Mary Magdalene and they are very esoteric questions. Peter again gets really upset and he says you know why is she even here? You know she's a woman and Jesus tells him to shut up. And he says, Peter be calm because you know she's imbued with the spirit so so Gnostics portrayed Mary Magdalene as the most advanced disciple of Jesus and in some instances also as his partner So this is Gospel of Mary Magdalene but also in Nakhamadi when I mentioned gospel of Philip or Pistis Sophia...So there's a interesting story behind Nakhamadi there

43:11 It was discovered in 1945. And this is the story that I shared only one more podcaster and I discussed also Miguel Conner who actually pointed me towards this one particular scholarly work, and in my book I mentioned it only in one sentence because I didn't know how to react to it but actually the scrolls in Nag Hammadi were found next to a skeleton strangely looking skeleton with elongated fingers teeth. I think that maybe your audience would be interested in it because there is a kind of otherworldly element to it, you know? Stranger-looking skeleton who had this jar next to him. Yeah very strange and I definitely had that on the list of things to ask you about! It's crazy because elongated skull

44:00 weird teeth maybe a second row of teeth or elongated teeth these are the qualities that people tend to peg to what they say is the nephilim people think like the nephilim live and they were giants, and that these elongated skulls if i find the practice calls in central america but they are the remnants of this but. Either way these nagamati scriptures like basically the bulk or is it all we know about nasa system Well, it's not necessarily all that we know about Gnosticism but we had like 40 scrolls discovered there. So the Gospel of Mary Magdalene was discovered about 50 or 55 years earlier so this is the main source of this but

44:47 We know about Gnostics. Okay, so this is actually an excellent question. This is the first time that we got the original writings because we knew about Gnostics from second century and on when people who were trying to form institutionalized religion, the new institutional religion Christianity like Irenaeus and so on between second and fourth century were writing about the Gnostics but in a very derogatory way. These terrible people that don't want to follow the church, that they don't want to create their church, that they think that they can find Gnosis or connection with God by themselves and some of them use sexual rituals for this, that ordain women you know? Worst thing of all! So we knew about Gnostics but always from this negative side

45:42 what people who were anti-Gnostic were telling about Gnostics. And Nag Hammadi, for the first time we have the actual documents written by the Gnostics. Right okay that makes sense first time we had the firsthand writings and they're found next to this weird Nephilim like alien skeleton yeah So I don't know what to make out of this, that's why i just left it in one sentence. Maybe it's another book or maybe someone else will pick up on this but it is kind of interesting because it gives you a completely different perspective on what was going on with early Christianity. But one more thing that perhaps I would like to discuss if you do not mind which I think is my original research is what happened to Mary Magdalene after the crucifixion? Would you mind if I cover this? No go for it! Okay

46:35 So, because there is such a long-standing tradition especially nowadays with Mary Magdalene going to Southern France after the crucifixion and it is historically possible because I checked this. However you know even then it is mentioned that Mary Magdalene didn't go to France until 15 years after the crucifixion. And it didn't make any sense simply because, you know they were all persecuted so all disciples moved around and left the Holy Land so I was asking myself first of all i'm not totally convinced about the French tradition although you know it is a strong tradition then I thought even if it is true what did she do for next 15 years? She certainly didn't stay in Jerusalem or

47:21 anyway in the Holy Land because it was not safe for them. So, it was a kind of interesting spiritual detective work because I came across work of another scholar Joni Taylor who was talking about Philo of Alexandria and his work A First Century Philosopher in Alexandria, his work Vita Contemplativa and there she mentioned which caught my attention that He mentions a group of philosophers in Alexandria called Therapeute who were inviting spiritually and prophetically and intellectually advanced women, which was very unusual because women were not allowed to have this kind of activities. Not only this they had the connection both with the Temple for Isis

48:13 in Egypt, in Alexandria but also with some Gnostic groups especially the Essenes in the Holy Land. So I thought this is very interesting because there are some scholars that argue that Jesus was connected to the Essenes So I thought, okay if I were Mary Magdalene and this is what I believe that she was an advanced disciple of Jesus then i would be much more interested in going to Alexandria which was the intellectual center and spiritual center of the universe at that time than going to France. And especially there was a group called Therapeute who was inviting women

48:55 that were spiritually gifted and intellectually gifted, and they had a connection with the Temple of Isis as well. And in my book as you know I make a connection between Mary Magdalene and Isis so would it be possible that she went to Alexandria? So, I started to search whether there was a woman who would fit the description of Mary Magdalene at least a little bit at that time in Alexandria. And I found that there was an historical figure called Mary the Alchemist who specialized in spiritual alchemy which specializes in ascension not in turning you know base metals into gold but ascension

49:33 She was also called Mary the Prophetess, which would fit into the Gnostic description of Mary Magdalene or Mary the Jewess. which would also apply to Mary Magdalene. And in the third century, famous, which is a historical figure, famous alchemist Zosimus from Acmin said that one of his biggest predecessors was this woman, Mary the prophetess, Mary the Jewess, Mary the Alchemist and the reason why she was allowed to open school in Alexandria it is because she was not fully Egyptian. She was only partly Egyptian or Jewish

50:10 which means because Egyptians were not allowed to share their knowledge publicly with the foreigners. And then I checked in the open sources of National Library of Israel and it states that definitely this figure Mary the prophetess existed and did live in ancient Alexandria. And they even had some kind of physical artifacts from her alchemical studio, as we would say today right? And then I thought that perhaps another interesting aspect of this is that Zosimus who wrote about

50:47 lived in Acmen and the Gospel of Mary Magdalene was also found in Acmen, Egypt. So there perhaps there was already a tradition of her teachings there so that's the story that I would like to put forward in my book as well Yes, that's really interesting about her going to Alexandria and before I really let you go. I did want to ask you about this because I heard you mentioned in a previous interview that you said obviously men have sexuality too but they have not been taught how to honor or uplifted and since it has been so feminine centric i'm just curious what your thoughts are on that if we're often taught its about conquest store

51:29 that's just kind of the male perspective is often that it is about some kind of conquest. How do we take these themes and recontextualize sexuality for men in a healthier way, in your opinion? That's a very interesting question Greg thank you for this so yes I also say that man are not were given more sexual freedom but they were not taught how to honor their sexuality. None of us were, right? So I think we already have a wound there because we think it's something horrible or we want to use other people. I think in case of, especially this kind of primal man you know, to use women for their sexuality and so on but i think that what we really need to do both women and men... We really need to... That's why I'm going back to the feminine it is that we need a woman that feels empowered in a healthy way sexually because only then can have good relationship with each other

52:31 Otherwise, we have this kind of either unsure or dependent or toxic feminine and it's very difficult to have. So I'm asking also women to take responsibility for this right? We cannot have a clear relationship with us and also that's why I encourage people you know to discover this erotic connection and at the beginning of my book Perhaps you remember I'm talking about this for few traps. One trap is, for example the romantic trap right? which means that because we don't have an evolved feminine, and the man that is usually thinking about conquest and this kind of alpha men. And so on, we fall into this romantic trap. What is a romantic trap? Which means that we play all these ancient roles that were already outdated, that we are not showing our true faces to each other because we really don't know who we are right

53:25 So, we men play the part of a seductress and men play the part of conquering man. And I say that in this situation Eros dies because there is no truth into this relationship. We just try to show the best sides of ourselves but we truly not expose our souls to ourselves So, I often say that a woman can wear red dress for the same man only but many times to the same effect. Eventually this is being exposed as unreal for both women and men so I still believe that we need to be complete in our relationships however not only in marriages but in any relationship and this when I talk about erotic connection it's different from marriage or romance

54:16 We have to be really honest with each other, you know. But before we can be honest show good and bad and ugly and beautiful to each other allow ourselves to be vulnerable have an open communication And before this relationship can have any meaning but to do this very often we have to go in my opinion on a personal quest instead of marrying at 18 and this is what they tell us to do You know as you know, I said that would mean death for me. You know, I realized as a young girl if I marry before I know who I am we should go more on a personal quest. It was required in all kinds of indigenous societies that everybody goes men were allowed women were not allowed but now women are allowed and I went on the personal quest to discover at least partially who we are before we enter into any meaningful relationship

55:14 And then to be honest with each other, this is who I am. I'm not just a provider for a man right? I don't know if I want to be a father and if I want to be a father now...I want to have meaningful relationship with someone that's not only sexual and it's wonderful to have great sex with someone but it's meaningful erotically which means I really think like, open up to myself and to you. We want to talk about the sexual and other needs together? Are we on the same page with certain things? And if we are not, are we in agreement that we want to grow together to a certain point and then separate so i think there is so much to discover in female and male relationships that are outside of

55:59 current parameters of what marriage is. Having said so, like you I'm also in a very happy relationship long-term relationship but in my case I got into this relationship later in life and I know that personally I am not saying it's the case for everyone and so is my partner who had many relationships before me That in my case, at least I would not be able to be in this relationship unless I discovered who I was also sexually erotically intellectually and spiritually. And perhaps to admit to ourselves that not to use other people but the honest with other people and if we are all honest with each other that not every relationship has to end in marriage

56:41 Yes. Some of them if we allow ourselves on both sides without using anyone, you know just that's I'm just a learning lesson for me but you know we are learning We are just on this amazing adventure on this strange place called planet Earth and you know This is a journey and we are just partners on this journey And let's see where it leads us But I don't think many people are ready for this kind of openness and learning I agree and then to that and you know just manner conditions to think that we're supposed to drive the sexual experience lead the dance so speak but this is been a really eye opening flip on that script that.

57:26 a woman in the right conditions can actually provide an intense life changing enlightenment breakthrough experience and, i peek behind the veil is true gift and that's just really interesting that. We've gone so long without really ever unpacking this sort of thing so i just think the work you done is really amazing We covered a lot of great stuff went far outside what i might have expected but that is how you know it was a good interview your book is super interesting wouldn't even talk about the marriage engine bloodline or the night's templar both which make an appearance we gotta leave something for the readers anything else to tell the people in terms of following your work or your website links are anything you're working on next.

58:09 Sure. I think that the best way to connect with me is actually from my book, The Other Goddess because I really spilled my soul and body there right in the open and I think there's some truth in this kind of raw experiences backed also by research. And I also have a Facebook page Dr Joanna Kujawa and I have a small YouTube channel where I try to post twice a month few things. Although, I do not consider myself really a podcaster the way you are or Miguel is because I consider myself more of a spiritual detective that's why the book The Other Goddess is probably the best way to connect with me and also my Facebook where I try to communicate very meaningfully with people who are there on these topics

59:00 So, I also would like to say that I truly believe that all of these experiences we spoke about are actually for our benefit and it is up to us how we are going to respond to these things that we experience including our sexuality. And that we should not allow anyone to interpret these experiences for us even people closest to us especially not religious institutions or political institutions. Totally agree. Well said, ah this has been super interesting a great unexpected topic to throw into the lineup thanks for doing it keep up the great work and take care out there Thank you so much Greg Wow well I'm sure that was pretty unexpected It's been a bit heavy on current events lately but is it bad to say that I liked this one more than I thought I might when I was considering? Sure sex magic episode does happen from time-to-time

1:00:00 But even Alan Greenfield, it's his work on the Secret Cipher of the Euphonauts that I liked so much. But then I didn't want to say no when The Grail Within came out but it really wasn't my favorite episode So then when Dr. Kuyava got in touch and said hey I heard that show yours and I offer a different take not only a feminine take but one that is not so dark I was a little on the fence to be honest, but i thought you know what we should offer the counterpoint and just see what happens. Maybe i can do a better sex magic show! I knew she did great interviews on Aeonbyte and Skeptico so...I figured let's go for it We do have a great deal of female listeners that i think feel a little underrepresented And i thought i would do it for them ended up thinking man It is pretty damn interesting for everyone

1:00:51 I do hope people who see the title and think, eh maybe i'll skip this one. Do actually give it a chance because not only did we go to some wild places but the main takeaway is her Kundalini experience and it makes me think maybe that really is the core of the suppression of female sexuality because it can facilitate this sort of experience. I'm sure of course the suppression is multifaceted but this would definitely be in the mix It's also pretty rare to hear anybody talk about, right? Sure you might hear some Kama Sutra-esque type conversations about what is possible in increasing the levels of pleasure. But I don't think I've ever heard anyone really talk about this! And some say Christianity did come out of a mushroom fertility cult

1:01:40 We've talked before about how the sacrament probably was once something a little stronger than cheap wine and crackers, as well as how cathedrals themselves seem designed geometrically to elevate consciousness. You throw a pipe organ in there and we're all blasting off! But as we know there was a puritanical takeover and all the fun stuff got stuffed back in the box... no pun intended So really that would have been enough for me but then we got into a weird skeleton buried along the Nag Hammadi texts, the work of Diana Pasulka, similarities between angels and aliens. Things I totally didn't expect but certainly appreciate she was a great guest

1:02:24 I like the term wombs of forgotten stargates. Of course, wombs are literal stargates if you need a refresher on how babies are made but that is just a great way to phrase it. Stargate's in more than one way, I suppose Oh and she was thoughtful enough to send me a follow-up email about that last question i asked of how men could use their sexuality and masculinity more productively or just how to look at masculinity with this new context for femininity And she wrote, you asked me about what this means for men which was an excellent question. I would say that Eros is not about performance and that both men and women are limited in this oppressive trap of one form of masculinity. I would say that for the erotic connection, men should not be afraid to show their vulnerability something that is too often considered as weakness when in fact it is a strength. Men should not be afraid of opening emotionally and spiritually in an erotic encounter

1:03:24 Masculinity just as much as femininity has many faces. Also, of course this also goes for women do not fall into the polarity trap of an attractive other woman slash harlot and the wife slash mother archetype as they are both very damaging to our psyche Since I did not fully answer the question I thought at least I would share this reflection with you via email I hope this is helpful to you in some ways well yeah definitely We are oftentimes pushed into polarities or ways of looking at things that don't suit us and the angles that might are not so often talked about. And I appreciate her response, she clearly cares about the material and was thoughtful enough to add that bit after the fact Very fun person to talk too As for The Plus Show it of course was very wild It is where some of the things i mentioned came up but just give you the full gist we got into

1:06:09 So I certainly learned a lot and this will color the way i think about sexual suppression and the divine feminine for probably the rest of my life. It definitely has a lot of value, just goes to show you can explore pretty much every strange topic under the sun for over a decade and still learn more all the time Big thanks to her for her work and for spreading the word about her profound experience when many others might be inclined to keep it private especially with the academic career in play But in Hireside News, we definitely got some good stuff in the works. A bit of a back and forth between useful important relevant coverage of the times and then just some weird crazy stuff that I think we all like So be awake! Be ready! And let's look at the meetups calendar hiresidemeetups.com Our next three events remain the same tonight Monday August 22nd sunset by The Vast Conspiracy in Venice Beach

1:07:07 Saturday, August 27th the London UK THC meetup at Little Creatures Brewing in Kings Cross. Get at it? And then Saturday September 3rd the Conspiracy Theorizers at High Springs Brewing in High Springs Florida And yes, alcohol might not be the most enlightening substance but it is a social lubricant. It has its place and there's just something about supporting microbreweries and small breweries all across this great nation that I appreciate. It charges me up a bit although there are many ways to meetup and you could go on hikes You could go to oddity shops. You could go to museums. You can stargaze... All kinds of stuff so

1:07:55 Let your creativity be the only limiting factor. New friends in your area are just a few quick clicks of the mouse away, but you know the drill! But thanks for sticking with me and supporting the show for all the Plus members who do I hope it's worth your 8 bucks a month. I love ya guys couldn't do it without ya Curious what the feedback will be on this one but we shall see Let Dr. Kiyava know you liked the conversation, if you did I'm sure she would appreciate it She is on Twitter at Joanna Author for those of you who use Twitter But that's it for me! I'll catch ya next time! I've done my part Your move goddess suppressors kundalini deniers and divine feminine demonizers your fuckin' move Woke up this morning with light in my eyes And then realized

1:08:51 It was dark outside. It was like coming down from the sky. Must be those strangers that come every night, whose saucers shaped light put people uptight. Leave blue-green footprints that glow in the dark

1:09:32 I hope they get home Mr. Spaceman, won't you please take me along? Do anything wrong Hey! Mr. Space Won't you please take me along the high side Woke up this morning feeling quite weird Had flies in my beard

1:10:19 My toothpaste was smeared I opened my window, they'd written my name So long We'll see you again Hey Mr. Spaceman Won't you please take me along? Do anything wrong Hey won't you please take me along

1:11:02 The high side man Won't you please take me along? Won't do anything wrong Hey, won't you please take me along the high side Won't he take me along the high side