Dr. Gregory L. Little | Denisonvan Origins: The Giants, The Mounds, & The Path of Souls

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00:51 Which means you'll unfortunately never hear my voice again. 1930s President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed the nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the fireside chats His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times From 1930 and I deal with a different kind of fire For a new era of worldly frustration we offer a fresh conversation, I'm Greg Carlwood

01:27 Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls the list of mysteries in this world is long and flowing. In fact nearly every chapter the human story has pages ripped out redacted or never written at all yet we do see the rubble and remnants of times before that make us curious as to what the past was really like pyramids mounds megalithic ritual centers celestial markers and more These things should make anyone wonder what the people of the past really knew or thought about this human terrarium and their place within it. Because today it's hard to even get that question asked now we suffer from a blended cocktail of ignorance apathy and dare i say suppression, does not go down all that smoothly for the inquiry minds actually wanna know those folks were lucky to have today's guest greg little

02:19 For the unfamiliar, Mr. Little is a psychologist by trade who holds a master's degree in psychology as well as a doctorate in counseling from Memphis State University He is associate editor of Alternate Perceptions and has written over 30 books on a number of subjects from self-help and criminal justice to ancient mound builder cultures Atlantis & UFOs Today we're gonna talk primarily about his latest release with co-author andrew collins entitled denis oven origins hybrid humans go back to the genesis of the giants of ancient america, i'm sure it's gonna be a good time. So here is the multi discipline dennis oven detective greg l little welcome to hire side

03:01 Hi greg hey thank you and that is quite a introduction there are lot of a lot of very flowing language in the beginning that was that was impressive, i try to know just do it on every show yeah i would say so you gotta get people warmed up you know every subject can be varied diverse and not really got a set them up well i think because no attention spans are short these days. Well you did a great job there my bios of data date it always is i don't need i don't generally supply new bio to people as i move along just reach a certain age and you go what the heck you don't care. That's kinda where i'm at with this i'm just doing what i wanna do with this point in life right hey amen just a couple of gregs doing we like that's right

03:48 Yes i'm really looking forward to this man cuz you've written plenty of books that fit squarely in our wheelhouse and I hope we have time to touch on several of them but it is, dennis oven origins which is also impart connected the other book path of souls are the main offerings on the table today. And i really enjoyed the book i think the mound building cultures of ancient america and the idea of giants are both pretty exciting interesting And as someone who's also fascinated by synchronicity and dreams, I think a good place to start is to ask you how you even got interested in mounds because it seems like something you couldn't ignore right? Wow. I'm surprised you brought that up i'm not sure what where you read that or which book was in i know it wasn't

04:32 It wasn't in the origins was it no it was not okay alright well back in nineteen eighty four i had my first book published. And that's a long time ago before your listeners were born and that book was called the archetype experience and try to explain you up on amman through carl young idea of synchronicity in any event, I did that the old-fashioned way, and that is you type out a manuscript. You make multiple copies and you send them off to publishers, then you wait. And I got many rejections. I got some interesting rejections from some publishers but eventually I found this small publisher who put it out. But during that roughly year's time where I had to wait for this first book to come out something happened to me, and that is this—I had

05:26 Intrusive dream that occurred roughly ten nights in a row the dreams seem to come out of nowhere and on the dream. I was standing on an indian mound, and i took some pictures and then suddenly i was standing on another india now and i took picture And on another and took pictures, and this went on. This was the dream! It was a recurring dream that went on night after night after night Now I say this all the time but it's totally accurate What i knew about Indian mounds at the time could have fit in the back of a postage stamp

06:05 Now I know most of your readers will not be familiar with what a postage stamp is, right? A postage stamp is a little tiny piece of paper you put on an envelope and mail it off. So its not very big. And that was an old joke that was used back long time ago But I really knew nothing about mounds. I knew next to nothing about Native Americans Nothing was taught in my high school history classes, nothing was taught in college about it I took anthropology and archaeology as courses never heard a bit about them so my wife and I decided Because of this dream i had no idea where it was coming from we went to a mound i live in memphis tennessee we want to amount here never been. And when we walked and we saw something is actually a spider illustration and i just knew instantly that,

06:57 that I had to visit all of the known mounds in America, and when I say North America get a photographic record of them and generate a pictorial illustrated encyclopedia. Now this came again out of nowhere and that started a quest to go to Native American mounds Which we did, we wound up going to thousands and thousands of them. Took so many pictures and back in those days you had to print them out I wasn't entirely organized because i was doing a lot of other things at work So I didn't even write the name on a lot of them but I did finally finish that Mound Encyclopedia book

07:40 The first edition came out in 2009, it took that long and I updated it. In 2014, I believe, I believe was 16 and thats available now and has about 3000 nouns in North America but thats how that started It came out of nowhere from a dream And I know its an unusual story but its absolutely the truth I have no explanation for except when I came out with 1990 book Which was a follow up to that first one it was about carl young and ufo i started talking about native americans in. And then i had an aunt and uncle and my father who said oh by the way your great great grandmother with native american she was, seneca and i had no idea and then that actually made me look at all of even deeper so thats kinda the story that's how i got into it

08:35 I love it answering the call of the mounds and maybe even your ancestors well may be i will add one more piece to this what i was doing the book. That encyclopedia is so detailed and its got so much information packed into an oversized hardcover that's the size of an encyclopedia volume, Two-thirds of the way through it and I just went oh my god. This is too much work. I have other things I have to do and Nobody's gonna read this thing anyway, it's not going to sell I'm doing all this work for nothing And I decided I'm just not gonna do it and that night starting that night. I had Dreams and I had these Native Americans shaman loads of others coming and screaming at me

09:27 Saying you said you're gonna do this promise that she were gonna do this we're gonna bother u to get this done and i mean a screen and scream and then, this happened for about two nights the second night in your okay gotta do this so i just recommitted myself doing it in the dream stop. I haven't had a single one since because i did go ahead and complete it and get it out. And that ended, just very strange but true. And for a psychologist its not unusual to say this kind of stuff but usually you're saying about other people not yourself. Well ya know dead men can tell no tales but they can harass you in your dreams It appears so yeah But thats the story

10:10 That's been written up several places i've said it quite a few times and just the way it was i don't really know what to say about that is just the way it works. Yeah life is weird and i'm sure that is just the detail that is interesting for audience like this and another little detail i heard, that is kind of in the realms of. Getting intimate with indigenous spirituality maybe even that has an emphasis on entheogenic experiences But you had a Native American shaman and his family move in with you for a month. Is that true? Oh my you have done your homework I dig man, I dig You've done your homework on that Yes, I don't I do not recommend That to anyone it wasn't just the shaman It was in his entire family that occurred in 1989

11:00 It had to do with, I was working for government at the time and i got involved in a standoff between a group of very angry Native Americans and a group of archaeologists who were trying to do an excavation into a mound downtown Memphis. And one thing led to another and finally this shaman he was an arrow priest of Cheyenne He his wife and three kids moved into our house stayed with us exactly 30 days They left the day the Memphis City Council passed a resolution that barred the archaeologists from digging into these mounds. During those 30 days, he and I had a lot of talks. He actually had the seven sacred arrows from the Cheyenne tribe that go back

11:46 A couple thousand years at least and they were used in their ceremonies and he had those wrapped up with him long involved story but I learned quite a bit it also he would bring when we talk about. Sacred things he would bring in dirt from the outside and he would toss it on himself and say this is sacred knowledge i have to purify myself. And now that the whole idea of dirt being used to purify yourself, is that they believed everything had a spiritual nature? Everything had spirit within most primordial spirit of all his soil or dirt

12:28 Rocks represent a form of condensed spirit. Crystals are the most pure of spirit energy, water is flowing spirit and so on but they believe everything has a spiritual nature archaeologists and anthropologist used to derive that as animism that is that they believe everything's alive but it's not really They didn't really mean this idea of spirit and everything in that it's alive, but it has a form of consciousness where everything is one and it's all part of the whole. And everything has its spiritual nature

13:10 So yeah we had weird experiences with him, we went outside several nights and he pointed to different areas of the sky and said this means this and that various constellations. They did not use the same names for stars or constellations that we use today but almost every tribe has its own names and terms for various constellation. I am surprised you dug up that story yet. It's not hard Yeah you got some research it's the one job that i should have. So that is some those are some great anecdotes to get us started here but when it comes to this book denis oven origins its really two full books and one but the first part, old world cosmos genesis is written by andrew collins in the second part american genesis is written by you obviously andrew isn't here but could u give people a bit of an overview of andrew's contribution before the story gets to america where you pick up.

14:12 Well, Andrew Collins is very well known. He's on almost every episode of the show Ancient Aliens. He's on several other series, network series pretty often. He's best known for his work in about Göbekli Tepe in Turkey. He's well-known for European archaeology and a course a lot more is known about European archaeology and history than the Americas. history here started for us 1492. That's why we call it the historic period, everything before that is prehistory but in Europe there are records that go way back so there is a lot more known so Andrew has

14:52 Has done a lot of work in Egypt he actually discovered a cave system under the plateau and the Egyptians even named it after him it's not his college case. Andrew is famous for really challenging what is called the optio ct the orion correlation theory which which theorize that three The three main pyramids at the Giza plateau in Egypt are aligned to the constellation of Orion. So Andrew and some colleagues, some professional colleagues have found that the three main pyramids at Giza are also aligned exactly to the three

15:34 crossbar stars of the constellation of Cygnus, which is known as the Northern Cross. So that is what Andrew was known for but he's written a lot about this site in Turkey called Göbekli Tepe. And Göbekli Tepe is the oldest stone temple known in the world, dates to roughly 10,000 BC actually it's more like 9600 BC or so It's a massive site on southeastern Turkey has these huge pillars of stones that are like 16 feet tall some of them are 20 feet tall

16:12 monstrously huge T-shaped pillars that probably held a roof up, but they have these incredible intricate carvings of animals and human forms on them. And it changed everything the discovery of Gobekli Tepe around 2000 year or so changed everything and when I mean it changed everything up until that time And really we're talking around 2010 when everybody knew that, okay this is dated that old. Up until that time everyone in archaeology thought civilization began roughly 4000 BC. That began the earliest stone carvings and stone structures in megalithic buildings. There was nothing before that. Everyone was a hunter-gatherer before that.

17:02 But now we know that's not true. So, that pushed the dates back for everything and of course, oddly Gobekli Tepe's burial which occurred around 9600 BC occurred right at the same time that Plato's Atlantis supposedly was destroyed and disappeared And that of course has driven archaeologists mainstream archaeologist nuts because they hate the whole idea of Atlanis but Andrew wrote in the beginning of this book that these people, known as the Denisovans, you can call them Denisovans. Andrew says that over there they pronounce it Denisovan but to me it doesn't matter They're actually named after the cave in which their remains were very first discovered and a monk by the name of Dennis lived in this cave

17:53 cave. So they called it the Cave of Denis, therefore they became known as the Denisovans. The cave was located in the Altai Mountains of Siberia. It's in Russia. Initially when they went into the cave, they found habitation layers of modern humans. They dug lower and found habitation layers of Neanderthals and then discovered this unknown, much deeper layer that had initially a finger bone and couple other little pieces of bone. And now they know...they've recovered now a jaw of a Denisovan in China They have found pieces elsewhere and they have a lot more bones but the interesting thing is they did a full genetic sequence of this finger bone which was incredible

18:45 And that genetic sequence showed it was an entirely different species of humans. They have now taken them back to 700,000 years ago which is astonishing So, they were contemporary with the Neanderthals but they are different. But they did interbreed with the Neanderthals and this is all... I'm not talking woo-woo here This is mainstream archaeology, mainstream genetics The Denisovans and the Neanderthals interbred among themselves And they interbred with modern humans later Now modern humans supposedly developed around 200 thousand years ago or so

19:26 But all these species interbred, but the Denisovans died out as did the Neanderthals. It's unclear why they may have been killed off that no one really knows But what was discovered with them and even more recently with neanderthals is that these were not stupid brutes who walked hunched over and who were more ape-like than human These we're very intelligent creatures who made drawings, who made paintings, who actually made clothing which they sometimes sewed. These were people who made beautiful jewelry in

20:06 Andrew loves to talk about the discovery of a hole in some of their polished moldivite jewelry that the scientists have said it could only have been made by high-speed drill. Now, as soon I use that term everybody thinks electricity but we're not talking about electricity there's a lot ways you can make a high speed drill that makes really smooth polished interior but they actually had a lot more capability than we would believe. So these people were the beginning of really modern knowledge, they started the first art as they developed, they passed along some of their information to the modern humans so basically I'm following Andrew's chronology now and then these groups slowly moved towards the west. They were in Asia

20:59 They started moving toward the west and their cultures developed through a long series. One of them was called the Swiderians, that's Andrews' forte but eventually they got to the far western coast of Europe which would be France and Spain and Portugal and they became known as the Solutreans. This is about 20,000 years ago. The Solutreans made a very distinctive type of spear point, a very large spear point that had fluted sides. Flute is really a channel that makes the spear point thinner but it makes it easier to use and it makes it much more lethal. And what you have to remember is at that time frame, 20,000 years ago,

21:44 Virtually all of the continents in the world were overrun by these gigantic creatures such as woolly mammoths, mastodons tree sloths and so on. So the humans who were around at that time had to have a way to protect themselves so they developed these spear points now sometime Around 15,000 years ago the Solutrean culture disappeared. And when I say it disappeared it simply means their points are no longer found they evolved into someone else and the thing is they didn't need to point anymore because all of these all of the large creatures there had been killed off but it appears that they then went around

22:29 The area of iceland and greenland just like the north supposedly did it in around a year one thousand, any wound up in canada and they began spreading out across north america. Maybe came what is known as the clover sculpture which for a long time was the initial culture believed to be the first inhabitants of the Americas. And we know that now is not true and archaeology knows it's not true, but the Clovis Culture did start apparently in the East Coast and its spread to the West never got too far South, it never went further south than Panama

23:05 And the Clovis culture appears to have merged with people who were already here. Now we're getting to my part of the book, and they were here as long ago as 300 thousand years ago. They came multiple ways from many places And it all, the Clovis culture suddenly disappeared and it all collapsed around 9600 BC with a catastrophe we call today the Younger Dryas event which was a cooling of the earth. So that really gets you up to where my part of the book really begins but I can't do justice to Andrew's part its just

23:41 Andrew is an incredibly intricate detail writer and how he does that to make it explainable understandable people's kind of be on me i try to write much simpler fashion and i'm willing to gloss over a lot of details just because i don't wanna get bogged down. I understand these things are very complex and that was a great summary of a couple hundred thousand years in just a few minutes so yeah there you go. Yeah that brings up the speed basically now we know the whole human story and i'm gonna show right yes actually that next ten to fifteen thousand years is the most interesting to me anyway

24:23 It is and of course the closer the proximity is to it, the more details you can actually uncover. And when it comes to the mounds and excavations and giant skeletons that first round really learning about these things for westerners a lot of this started with Thomas Jefferson right he had a preoccupation with these mounds well yes that's actually true jefferson played quite a role in all this Jefferson supposedly did the first excavation into any mounds, and he did it on his own land. It was pretty impressive but he did not find what I would call giants in there. He just found normal-sized humans. But Jefferson actually set out several people on expeditions to map and survey a number of mounds but it was really the Smithsonian

25:12 and at the very beginning of the Smithsonian, starting around 1882 or so where the real work on North American Indian mounds began. The Smithsonian had a project forced upon them by the U.S. Congress and it lasted from 1882 to 1891, so it ran nine years During that time, the Smithsonian field agents dug into 2,000 mounds and they collected 40,000 specimens which were mainly skulls. They wanted skulls for display and artifacts. They wanted to fill the new Smithsonian Museum in Washington with these beautiful artifacts that they could pull out of mounds. During those excavations, the Smithsonian pulled out of these mounds 17

26:02 large skeletons ranging in height. A few of the 17, three of them were under seven feet but they were all way over 6'5". There were 14 of them that were 7 to 8 feet in height which is astonishing when you realize how few skeletal remains they actually did pull out of the mounds. Most of these were found in very elaborate tombs there's an area of the United States along the Kanoa River Valley, which runs into The Ohio. But it goes through West Virginia and on both sides of the Kanoa River particularly near Charleston in South Charleston, West Virginia there were seven of these seven footers pulled out in a series of mounds and they were really

26:48 Very elaborate tombs with a lot of artifacts. We know the era that these people were buried, roughly 1000 BC 1500 BC and it's called Adena A-D-E-N-A Era Mounds which the Adena ran from about 2000 BC to roughly 500 BC There are loads of Adena mounds they're giant conical mounds when I say conical I mean it's like like the top of an ice cream cone. That's literally where the word comes from, so they're cone-shaped mounds that can get enormous. The tallest ones have been some 80 feet today the tallest one I believe is 72 feet high that remains but they're huge! They're gigantic and usually in the base right

27:32 Right in the middle, at the bottom there is a really elaborate tomb. Now there are burials generally above that tomb that are less elaborate because they do the initial burial and then they do more and more on top of it so the mound will get bigger and bigger but thats just one kind of mound So that really is... That idea that the Smithsonian found these 7 foot to 8 foot tall skeletons was really the beginning of it Archaeologists deny every one of those, even though they're in the Smithsonian publications. And at the same time they're not the only ones found. Even after the Smithsonian did its excavations modern archaeologists have found many more seven to eight foot tall skeletons as they did more and more excavations but excavations into mounds burial mounds essentially stopped

28:30 in 1990 because of the law. So there hasn't been anything else done and all of these large skeletons that were pulled out of mounds are gone, and what happened was in 1989-90 Two laws were passed, one law specifically applied to the Smithsonian and the other one applied to every other place that ever received a penny of federal money or ever would receive a penny of federal money. That they had to repatriate which means give back any skeletal remains and any burial artifacts

29:10 to the native, any Native American tribes that would claim them. And if they could not find anybody to claim them then they had to keep them in storage and not let anyone look at them or examine them at all for any purpose so today It's like the Smithsonian. The Smithsonian has less than 300 of these remaining, and all of the ones that they have remaining out of probably millions of artifacts they've accumulated from the 1800s, they've given it all back but 300 and the 300 they have all come from South America They can't get any South American tribes to take them back

29:51 So that's where we're at. No one can really examine any of these, even if you could find one it is not legal to do the testing The last one I'd ever heard of where the testing was done was the famous Kennewick Man Kennewick man was found along a river in Washington State But when it was found, it was just found washed up in this river. It was tested and it was found to be 9000 years old Native Americans wanted it but the scientists and archaeologists wanted to test it so it was kept in storage and that one skeleton the legal proceedings went all the way

30:30 to the U.S Supreme Court in order for it to have any genetic testing done on it so they finally and I think it was an eight-year run before it was done, they did the genetic testing on it and then it was given to the Native Americans So that takes...it's that hard to do any kind of testing on remains These giants did exist, there is a tremendous amount of evidence even beyond this in both North and South America that there was some hereditary branch of individuals who were the elite leaders of the population who

31:10 passed along their knowledge hereditarily, that is from one parent to the children and they would become the shaman, the medicine men and perhaps even the rulers of this society, and they probably interbred among themselves in a very small closed group. This definitely went on in South America which we know through all of the research on skeletons there because the laws in North America don't apply to South America so we know that it was hereditary at least there. And of course you have three dramatically different types of cultures between South American,

31:47 the central american cultures with their pyramids and then north america maps. Pyramids were not built in North America they build incredible mounds and earthworks geometric earthworks which are amazing it is hard to describe the amazing Thousands of geometric earthworks that were made in north america. And most people did hear an explanation or see a map or pictures of the more survey when they go to it and look at it they got all my god i had no idea so you really can't,

32:22 describe in accurate terms what these geometric earthworks were. Just like it's hard to tell people about all the pyramids in Central America built by the Maya and the Aztecs, and the Mixtecs and so on you have to go see them And then South America has these giant megalithic stone structures So we had three very distinct cultures in the Americas But the giants were also in South America People like Magellan Lord byron many other really famous people saw these giants in south america francis drake was one drake actually measured some of them physically major. And they found the ones in south america there were some initially that they said would ten feet and every time ten feet height, everytime they came back

33:11 Every time the early explorers came back to South America, we're talking about extreme South America. An area called Patagonia Tierra del Fuego which is the southern tip of South America from Magellan being there in 1520 all the way through Charles Darwin in the 1800s went there. Every single group that went down there said, these people are exceedingly large and they started out being called giants 10 feet tall and then 9 feet tall by the time Sir Francis Drake got there he said oh these ten-footers were exaggerated and he said

33:50 The tallest i found was eight feet high but he called all the early ones exaggerations darwin when he got there in the mid eighteen hundred's, saw an extermination going on and wrote about it detail they were getting rid of virtually all of the indigenous tribes down there for two reasons one is that gold. and the explore, I'll call them explorers but they really weren't explorers. They wanted to get rid of the indigenous people so they could mine for gold and it was also a great sheep herding country. So they wanted to get the indigenous people out. So they were literally doing a war of extermination by the mid 1800s there was only one female left at the tribe that had the largest ones of all that was called the Ona O-N-A

34:38 I've gone a long way with this, I'm going from North to South American giants but there's so much evidence that these tall exceedingly tall people existed. It's just overwhelming yet skeptics just keep saying no no and i'm using the term giant Not in the sense of someone that's 20 and 30 feet tall. If you've ever stood next to someone like Shaq O'Neal or someone like Wilt Chamberlain, I actually stood next to Wilt Chamberlain when he was 16 years old and that man was a giant to me. He was 7 foot 2 at 74 Wilt was and he was proportional in size. I wasn't...I was 5 feet 9

35:18 He was a giant right and that's the same way that spanish captains in british sea captain explain to these people are giants meeting their several feet, how are they not in there will bus they are purported so that's the term now all the other stuff we've ever read in Newspaper reports of finding 20 and 30 foot people, at least in the Americas. Andrew and I ran down a lot of these reports, and every single one that we ran down turned out to be baseless. The only ones that had credibility were always based on an archaeological excavation done by the Smithsonian or others. And those were usually reported correctly—that is, that the skeletal remains was 7-8 feet in height

36:05 Right on, that's a lot of great detail. I think the Carnegie Institution funded a couple of those excavations too? Yes, Carnegie did in 1958 Don Drago dug into a mound along the Ohio River and he found a 7 foot 2 inch one in it and he said it was one of the largest that he'd ever seen notice I said one of the largest that he had ever seen because they had encountered them before. And the archaeologists that were doing the work like in 1958 to 1970, they didn't have the same problem with saying oh these people were seven feet tall today

36:45 Archaeologists say that they all mismeasured, they didn't know about the process of spreading. One skeptic actually said oh they're all normal size and what's happened is they got wet and froze for thousands of years and then got bigger and bigger And I actually asked the skeptic, so that's why you think dinosaurs were as small as a dog because over the millions of years their bones have been there. They've gotten wet and then frozen and gotten wet and frozen and they just got bigger but they're actually tiny It's an absurd thing even in archaeology what it what the textbooks say is that if bones actually do

37:28 get wet and then freeze, and then fall out and freeze again. And do this over and over they don't get bigger they simply split They totally split and a fracture but they don't just get bigger so it's an absurd explanation These people did not miss measure They knew how to what they were doing But they weren't afraid to say it and what happened is There are people who take this idea of giants in the mounds and the first thing that they'll quote after it is a passage from the Bible that says there were giants in the earth in those days. So these skeptics, most of them are agnostics and they believe that this whole idea of giants somehow supports creationism

38:17 and for their own reasons they detest creationism, they detest anything in archaeology that even remotely supports anything in the Bible. I'm not saying whether I believe what's in the Bible or not but I think it's absurd to Deny something because it goes against something that you just believe in they believe in evolution They do not believe in creation I believe an evolution too, but I'm also somewhat of a creationist in a different way. I think both take place

38:56 Yeah, I think the history is quite a mixed bag. I don't think you can put the entire history into one box. I agree with that completely but anything to them that even remotely supports the idea in the Bible that there were giants they do whatever they can to say this is not true. They ridicule it and make up arguments against it that are completely untrue. And then we've even, we've been called Andrew and I have been called racist by a mainstream archaeologist recently who reviewed the book and in it he said his very first sentence said that were racist because we assert that the Solutreans came over from Europe and they taught the poor stupid indigenous people here how to build maps

39:45 And that is not in our book at all. Not at all! They were already building mounds, there were mounds in South America and the first mounds were found in South America and the natives built the mounds. I actually pointed that out to the guy he said yeah well your genetics are wrong but he only says that and truth is he doesn't understand the genetics That's why we're racist Right.

40:35 ignore what they say in South America. But they have archaeologists with PhDs from major universities who claim that South America was first, that South America had people there by 300 thousand years ago and lots of incursions around 50 thousand years ago – there's loads of sites that go to 50 thousand years – and that there was a southern route. That is, a route from the south Pacific that hugged the coastline of Antarctica And if you actually got into a raft, say in either Australia or New Zealand and you just floated. Now it would take about 100 days but if you just floated You'd eventually go along the coast of Antarctica and cut north and you would right up the coastline The western coast line South America starting at Chile when you get to the middle of South America you bend back out and eventually go over to Hawaii from there

41:31 So that is the southern route. There is a tribe that lives in the middle of the Amazon, the Brazilian Amazon, that genetically is identical to indigenous people in the South Pacific They know for certain that it's who they are related too there was no way they could have gotten their around around the Bering Strait, which is where mainstream archaeologists say they all came from. And that's why we're...they say we're racist. We don't say that all of them came across Beringia All of them came from Asia at the same time! We say people came from Asia

42:13 from using the southern route very early a bunch of times, then a whole bunch of people came over across Beringia at the end of the last ice age around 15,000 years ago. And then the final incursion was a group of these Solutreans, a small group of them who eventually became the Clovis culture coming from Europe but ultimately we know that Solutreans were simply a massive moving people migrating out of Asia They were Asians also, and that's stated very clearly in the book. So all of the peoples who came to the Americas as far as we're concerned, as far as the evidence that we've looked at is concerned—they all came from Asia! It's just from different timeframes and they

42:57 they took different routes. Well, I think that makes a lot of sense and of course it's complicated history but that's another great summary and what about the mounds themselves? These are more than just hills right there pretty sophisticated ritual structures i believe you've called them magic machines for the death journey in a spiritual engine of sorts maybe we should talk about the context of the path of souls because that ties as well Sure. First, let's get straight when mound building started in North America around 4500 BC or about 6500 years ago. So we're talking about 6500 years ago in North America mounds started being constructed initially

43:43 The first ones were, they're usually called midden mounds and a midden mound is a buildup of refuse and material. There are some earthworks that they made which let me explain that it could be around oval shaped formation several hundred feet in diameter where the interior is flat and low but then there's an earthen wall built around There are loads of those, by the way. And those can go back to 3-4 thousand years ago So those were the first kinds and then they started building these large adena mounds which were these giant burial mounds that were like cones and often there was an earthwork built around them with a moat There are some in England and Europe that are identical to these

44:38 Over there, they'll call them a barrow or a henge. A henge is an earthwork that has a moat inside and then it has a flat interior and often they're just giant circles for example in this area the area I mentioned around the Kanoa River Valley there are some very large adena mounds that are 50-60-70 feet tall They have diameters of like 350 feet and around them is a moat, and then outside of the moat there was an earthwork that was 8 to 10 feet tall. Now there were many of those in Ohio, West Virginia, Kentucky...there's still quite a few of them in existence. That then evolved into what's called The Hopewell. All these names come out of places where they were first identified.

45:32 The Hopewells started around 500 BC and they made geometric earthworks. The most extensive and the most incredible earthworks in the world are in Newark, Ohio. It's recently just come under a great deal of controversy because there is a battle between the Ohio Historical Society and the club that operates the largest one of these earthworks still that remains today and it's called Mound Builders Golf Course

46:08 What it is, it was this Hopewell Earthworks that long ago a contract was given out to a golf club that they would preserve these earthworks. They could use it as a golf course if they would maintain the integrity of it and keep them in pristine condition and they have done that. And what it is called The Circle and Octagon The circle is a wall of earth, the continuous circular wall of earth that encloses 20 acres and it's a perfect circle totally flat in the center of these 20 acres. And then it connects to an octagon

46:50 that encloses 50 acres. The octagon is formed by eight straight lines of earth that are about 10 to 15 feet high, so those walls of earth are ten to fifteen feet high On the inside of the octagon where the eight points would come together, there is a truncated pyramid mount. Now what that means is it's a pyramid but with flat top and when I say pyramid its earthen made out of earth even though there are some stone covered mounds around the Americas so that then has another circle outside of it with a wall of Earth around

47:32 And it had a straight line walkway that was enclosed with two parallel lines or walls of earth, that ran about four miles. These walls of earth were about six feet high And they were a hundred and sixty feet apart so you have this is think of that state highway. Running just three four miles in both sides of the highway it's all earth in the center where the high way is on both sides of somebody has built a wall of birds didn't close you,

48:11 So that then goes to what is called the Great Circle. This still exists in Newark, Ohio It encloses 50 acres The outer wall of this thing is about 12 feet high. On the inside of it is a moat that's 7 feet deep, and in the center of this 50-acre complex is an earthen effigy mound that is shaped into an eagle lying on its back with wings out. That exists there Now, almost all of the rest of this incredible complex of earthworks has been destroyed. There are some portions of it. It's almost impossible to describe it. The reason I took so much time explaining what this walkway would be 160 feet wide with the walls of earth on both sides and closing in there was another walkway

49:10 that was made identically. And it had the two walls of earth on both sides, about 160 feet apart. They were three to five feet high on both sides and perfectly flat on the inside of B walkway and it ran 56 miles south to Chillicothe Ohio where it terminated at almost identical circle in octagon formation And there are several others of these in that exact vicinity, in Chillicothe. That is the most extensive earthworks in the world! There's nothing that compares to it yet It's just almost unknown among Americans We just don't know about it

49:55 But that's just one. There are loads of these, Portsmouth Ohio had probably the most incredible of all and a lot of that has been destroyed but a lot of it still remains so there were hundreds of these Hopewell type formations The Hopewell then evolved into what is known as the Mississippians and the Mississippians built gigantic mounds The Cahokia Mound, for example. There's 120 mounds at the Cahokia Illinois site. Now, Cahokia is about 10 miles to the east of St Louis when you get on top of the tallest mound You can see downtown St Louis and you can see the Mississippi River Then these 120 mounds formed a massive city that at least

50:41 25,000 people lived there. That's kind of the lowest number anybody gives some archaeologists believe 50,000 people lived there it ended around the year 1200 AD 1200 so it would be about 800 years ago The Cahokias tallest mound was called Monk's Mound It sits atop 13 acres that is how big this one mound and that is larger than the Great Pyramid at Giza It is the height of a 10-story building. It's 100 feet tall, it's massive! To tell you how big the top is in 1987 4 000 people gathered on the top of that mound at the same time that's how big it is and that still exists and there's about 60 of the mounds that still exist in the park of Cahokia and of course it's a World Heritage Site

51:34 Now, Cahokia was the largest of all these Mississippi complexes but there are hundreds of these cities or towns that were part of this Mississippian culture. And a lot of them had 30, 40, 50 mounds. One of the more impressive ones is in Moundville, Alabama which is near the University of Alabama near Tuscaloosa. And it was a massive complex and that was the site where The Path of Souls ritual was really laid out. That's where we really discovered what The Path of Souls is about and it sort of explained how and why these

52:11 these mound sites were built and arranged the way they work because their bill can arrange to point to certain astronomical events such as the solstices equinoxes. And the rise in setting very specific constellations stars so that kinda leads into this whole path of souls concept yes have you ever had anybody talk this much before I have i have there's been times where i just introduce people and not gonna take a nap if i wanted to but i mean that i like the make the show about the gas that's why you're here is why we do it, that is a great breakdown of the construction and composition.

52:55 of the mound complexes and that is important context for people to understand just how big and elaborate they really were. And then yes, let's lead right on into the purpose of some of them this idea of magic machines for the death journey this path of souls stuff I mean this is their cosmology and their concept of the life-death cycle I'm surprised how rich it is Yes, it is. There were artifacts that had been recovered from mounds by mainstream archaeologists doing excavations and some of these artifacts had just incredible symbols most people have seen a symbol of palm with the hand

53:40 and in the middle of it you see what looks like an eye, that is the eye-in-hand symbol. That's been found on roughly 30 artifacts from the mound building era in the Americas There's another symbol that a lot of people have seen that has carved onto all kinds of artifacts It is feathered serpent. It's like a rattlesnake that has feet and also has wings, and that's been found on quite a few. And of course most people used in the old days they used to immediately say ah that's the feathered serpent from South America or Central America Quetzalcoatl, the feathered serpent in the sky they said it was bad but it turns out it's not North America

54:24 There are various other symbols that have been found, raptor birds like an eagle. But these are very ornate eagles and they're usually in... depicted in real specific forms. There's a couple of others, a skull for example A wide-eyed skull where the eyes are depicted as just round big round eyes empty empty eyes but it is a skull there is another symbol where you have this skull with the round eyes but they're like looks like fire coming out at the mouth that's another symbol

55:01 It was these symbols that actually led a whole lot of archaeologists into the field. And up until around the year 2005 or so, you go into mound museums which are a lot of the biggest mound complexes have museums there So they have depicted some of the symbols and a lot of them had the artifacts with the symbols that were found on them You can see the actual artifacts and they're just fascinating. If you read what the archaeologists wrote back in 2000, and you can read interviews with them even my own books I always focused it on the symbols but a lot of them would say, a lot of the archaeologists would say

55:41 Will probably never ever know what the symbols were or what they really mean but darn their interesting and that's why they got into the field. Here is the thing we do know now, what they mean and paradoxically It was the passing of those laws in 1989 and 90 which led to the discovery of what all these symbols mean. Because up until 1989 and 90, American archaeologists focused almost all their work on excavations and the cataloging of artifacts, and trying to identify cultures based upon the pottery they would dig out. They'd look at radiocarbon dates and that kind of stuff doing what they called was science but they ignored the mythology

56:34 that the native americans themselves had and it wasn't scientific then for them to look at a symbol and speculate upon what it might mean, and of course they really at that time had up until 1990 I hate to say it but they really were very degrading to native americans and i experienced that myself i wrote about that a little bit. In the book people of the web back in nineteen ninety which tells the story about that shaman state bus for thirty days so what happened, In the mid-1990s, for their own reasons meaning apparently they had to do something to justify their existence a group of archaeologists and ethnographers and anthropologist came together every year at Texas State University

57:30 and they had an ongoing conference to try and unravel what they called the symbology of the Southeastern Ceremonial Complex. The Southeastern Ceremonial Complex is represented by those symbols on the artifacts that I just described, meaning this skull...I miss talking about a bone you'd see in Alna on a lot of artifacts-just the bone! The alna You see the scar with the look like a speech box coming out of the mouth you also see the raptor bird the eye and hand and course the. The feathered serpent in there were few others but they decided we need to figure out what these things me so what they did was the ethnographer started pulling out

58:23 some of the literally hundreds of old reports and Smithsonian books, and books published by the US government by Schoolcraft Henry Schoolcraft and many others where they actually talked about all those beliefs. And they began analyzing all these books which were in libraries I used to look at them i still do They were not digitized, that is you couldn't get on the internet and look at them. And you actually had to go to the library and either check them out or sit there and go through them. There are literally hundreds of these but what the ethnographers did back in 1600s 1700s 1800s all to early 1900's

59:13 They literally went into the tribes and they talked to the shaman, and the medicine men, and the tribal elders and leaders. And they started writing down their stories as much as they could about their rituals. There were actually rituals that were seen at the time and written down but even a Native American said all those books were languishing away in libraries unread because archaeologists didn't want to read all that, because it was nonsense and because it wasn't on the internet. I know lots of researchers that haven't set foot in a library everything they do is online so this group of archaeologists and ethnographers got together around the year 2004 or so they started issuing their reports

1:00:04 And by roughly two thousand and they had figured it all out. When i became aware of this immediately let andrew collins know because what they found was that the constellation sickness and the constellation of orion, were central to this whole belief system about the path of souls or the death journey, or where our souls come from because this is a two-way journey. Souls come to the earth from stars in their belief system and souls return to the star after death And souls that are gonna reincarnate go back and forth all this is incorporated into their belief system. So andrew and i wrote a book back in two thousand fourteen he wrote an extensive introduction and, afterward where you talked about the denise events that's where it started can our new book is really follow up to all that. And we talked about the database of being larger

1:01:03 Dan were robust and others any said they will probably be a giant so that's how we got into all this let me explain the whole path of souls concept and then. How we decided to validate this in a very scientific way so the idea is there, They believe that we had two souls. One is called the life soul, the other is called the free soul and when I say they I'm talking about the mound builders, Native American mound builders The life soul is the physical body Remember everything in the universe has spirit

1:01:44 it has an energy incorporated into it. But the body, they knew the body came from the earth. They knew we were a function of fluid and minerals that literally came from the earth. And they believed that after death this physicality had to be returned to the Earth so that is called the life soul. The artifacts depicted a wide-eyed skull just a skull with nothing in the eyes and it looked literally lifeless that is the life soul. And they know now those artifacts almost all of which are drinking bowls were used in rituals during a death journey ceremony

1:02:30 So that is a clue here. Then there is the free soul, the free soul was what most of us would describe as our soul it has our personality It existed before we came into this body and its what exists when we leave. It has a place of origin and destination and lives on after the body dies But it's what most of us identify as our personality. It accumulates all of our thoughts and all of our deeds, and so on... And it has a certain moral aspect to it We can be good and have been of service to our fellow man Or maybe we were evil So there is a judgment involved in this This free soul they found out Is depicted on the artifacts that showed

1:03:22 This skull, this wide-eyed skull that had the speech box or the fire coming out of the mouth. And that fire coming out of the mouth was a representation of the free soul leaving the body at death and that again all those were on drinking bowls of some kind so these were used in a ritual where you would move from one type of container to another in this ritual. So that is the beginning of the concept, so where does the free soul go and when?

1:03:58 Now, this has been figured out by archaeologists not me. This is in their textbooks and there's around 30 textbooks that have this in it I don't know how many articles but I'll say hundreds of journal articles in them so they know that they did this path of souls ritual where you release the free soul to the stars Around the winter solstice at the time of the mound builders this era roughly two thousand three, three thousand maybe four thousand years ago. The path of souls ritual was done in the winter around december twenty first but there's a window with time several months when you can do this and if free soul had to be released in the morning before sunrise

1:04:47 And it had to make a leap of faith toward the western horizon. And at that exact moment in time, Orion's belt could be seen on the western horizon and it was seen sinking into the western horizon So, Orion's belt are those three really distinctive stars but...and its actually a large constellation Well, the Native American mound builders called it The Hand Constellation They saw those three stars forming the belt as a wrist of a severed hand that was dangling down. The fingers were pointing down in the palm of their hand they saw a slit in the sky which they called an ogie, that is spelled O-G-E-E, an ogie. The ogie is a little slit in the sky and the leap of faith was this soul

1:05:41 jumping across water, which that's an important component. I won't really go into depth on it but the sole had to leap into that ogee right before its set into the horizon And it's actually Orion's nebula, which is also known as Messier 42. You can see it if you go out and look at the belt of Orion at night, you can see Messier 42 when you say on the eastern horizon its above three stars when you say western horizon it's on the bottom of the three stars and it's fuzzy it kinda got color to it too so that what the eye in hand symbol meant

1:06:20 part of this path of souls journey. So the soul would leap to that and then it immediately went below the horizon, and the sun would rise! And that is what ended the initial part of the ceremony so that night People i still haven't gotten into explaining the scientific part of this people would have gathered they would've seen yes. The bodies would have been the bodies and the deceased would've been put on a bonfire in cremated, add there will be a whole series of things done in this ceremony where people would saying and they were dancing they blow whistles they wouldn't take certain substances we know what some of those are

1:07:04 The planchettes, or these round flat objects made out of stone with the iron hand symbol carved on them. We know now those serve as tables! I mean, that's known. It's amazing you see these they look almost like discs They're about a foot and a half in diameter perfect circle usually have really intricate edging around them And it shows an eye on the hand it shows the palm of the hand With the eye in it and then sometimes there's a rattlesnake around it for very specific reasons and the priest would take that out When all this ceremony began on the night of the winter solstice lay it out and put the various cups

1:07:44 drinking cups out and they each would be filled with different substances which would be used in the ceremony. And the participants in the ceremony would be people who were alive, sending souls of their loved ones to the stars So that began the first step of the journey. Now, the next night time as soon as the sun went down you see Orion then on the eastern horizon so you see the hand coming up on the eastern horizon

1:08:19 And right behind it is the milky way you see this path of the milky way now the world was darker than most people listening to this cannot go outside and see any remnant of the milky way modern lighting pretty much just made it all disappear in most places not everywhere but most places. But what they believed then the next night, the soul would come out. It made the passage through the underworld under the earth and they knew that the stars went under the earth and came up on the other side the next night And then, after that safe journey through the underworld... ...the soul would leap out and get on the Milky Way. And it would begin a journey to the North. The whole idea of Paths of Souls... The path is the Milky Way. They believed that souls were making a journey toward the North... ...to go to a very specific destination. Now along the way....

1:09:19 They had all these little trials and tribulations, and things they had to do to prove themselves on the journey. Some of them might slip and fall back to Earth where they might be reincarnated or they might be cast into the underworld which I haven't gotten into yet it, the underworld was ruled by this feathered serpent. The feathered serpent was represented in the sky as the constellation of Scorpius and Scorpius is like a huge scorpion but they saw it as a feathered serpent during the winter months. Scorpius is not seen in the southern sky that's where its normally seen and usually just hovers above

1:10:06 During the winter it's not seen, and you can't take this path of souls journey when Scorpius is in the sky because it will snatch the soul trying to make the leap. One of the things this explains is why Native Americans would often store the bones of the deceased. They would bundle them up and store them, and then in the winter they would take the bones of the deceased and do the ceremony that released the free soul to the sky but that explains why they often did that

1:10:44 Now you might wonder why these giant skeletons were sometimes found in these really rather exquisite tombs in the base of various mounds. And it was because they wanted this leader or shaman, or member of an elite to reincarnate Exactly the same as the pharaohs in egypt. Is the exact same idea and they believe that there were two souls also the bond cause what they call it all just matches rather perfectly so we're talking about a worldwide belief system here,

1:11:21 Wow wow and blow my mind that were at the end of the road but hopefully we can do this again sometimes just start writing the deep end of the pool okay i'm, i'm willing hey it's been a pleasure i can't believe that is two hours but ideas on looking at my little pocket. Yes yes luckily we're not on a strict time limit like i'm not fitting this into some of your radio show schedule but obviously were wrapping it up and this is been super interesting, you definitely cover the spread when it comes to the books you've written other things are gonna be put now next that we should tell people about her ways to check out banya website social media.

1:12:02 A couple things, Andrew Collins has started a group on Facebook called Denisovan Discussions. I'm on facebook you got is my whole name define me gregory l little i post a lot of this on facebook and any articles that are right up put on facebook, i use twitter i am dr gregg little seven on twitter i used to order for my profession mainly. And the books that i do professionally which is my main that's mainly what i do Also, APmagazine.info I generally put an article or two there every month beyond that...I had nine books come out this year so i have several in the hopper but im almost 70 years old man! Ill be 70 in a couple months so keep that in mind. I dont know when ill slow down This year I have not slowed down Nine books is the most ive ever put out in any given year Now I have co-authors on many of them and that helps

1:13:01 But Andrew wrote roughly two-thirds of Denise had been origins, and I wrote the rest of it. The publisher gave us word totals. Andrew went over, and I stayed right on it so that explains it. I do what I'm told. I listen to my superiors. Right on! Well man, I really did love the book, and I loved everything you had to say today You're an interesting cat Dr Little Thanks for taking the time And for all the work you do Have a good one! I appreciate it so much Maybe we'll do it again For sure Oh my, my! You beautiful people. How about that? So glad... so glad we could make this one happen I'm sure it's gonna be popular This is one of those shows where i'm actually

1:13:47 A little disappointed in the format where the second hour is reserved for premium people because my god did we get into some interesting places by bringing up his book Grand Illusions. The spectral reality underlying sexual UFO abductions, crashed saucers afterlife experiences sacred ancient ritual sites and other enigmas. Woo mouthful even for me but But it is the kind of nuanced examination of high strangeness that gets closer to the heart of things, again with the plasma. It's all right up my alley so amazing and I hope i can get him back and we'll start there and talk about Edgar Cayce also who Mr Little has spent a lot of time studying

1:14:37 But you have to tell him you liked this show and that you do want him to come back. Supply and demand, the drill! What a guy... The amount of work he's done is very impressive not just in subject areas that overlap with us but even the vast amount of psychology content he's put out aimed at helping people with difficult aspects of life it's a lot and he's a humble guy You gotta love that and he added some important context around the mounds. He's got a great story of these dream experiences that compelled him to study the mounds in The Moundmakers, it's very close encounters or field of dreams but the other mound books he has, The Illustrated Guides I mean this is a real contribution to the historical record same with The Path of Souls just dissecting all that learning it

1:15:32 bringing it back. It's like when I get excited about a guest who has translated some obscure grimoire into English, just wow you really did something and i just hope over the course of this show its become obvious that Greg Little is a great example for Gregs everywhere especially the less productive ones and I salute him for it This was sort of a whirlwind for me lots of content and i can't remember if we relate all the details about one or tease that is another wild an important story. That this fifteen twenty eight gold expedition in tampa bay had failed and then to soda and his men come through that area eleven years later and find the sky one or two.

1:16:24 from the first expedition that survived and live with the natives for those eleven years and learn their language everything what a life there are no phones or telegrams. Do tell people that you survive no contact of any kind know where to get back home then eleven years it's a long time really have to probably inform the soda when is man even at that first expedition happened Just wild times. Wild times, but also on the subject of giants we've been talking about that theme a bit in the joint sessions and I brought this up there but we've heard guests talk about The Humboldt Museum in Nevada and how you can ask to see the bones of giants there well I found out that apparently they have a sign-up and let me just read from it first off it has red haired Giants with the big no

1:17:24 like the no smoking symbol through it, and it says there are many myths surrounding the so-called red haired giants from the Lovelock caves much of which you find on the internet is false. The Humboldt Museum no longer has any human remains from the Humboldt sink area for the record the remains that were here years ago were not giant one of the males may have been six feet tall which was tall to them but certainly not seven or eight feet in height There are no archaeological facts supporting this myth. Please refer to blah, blah, blah Wikipedia whitewashing bullshit." I'm just messing around but it is interesting that they do have this sign. You hate to see that Codden and i guess we weren't the first to think about showing up there to ask about such things

1:18:15 And speaking of the joint session, I know we had some confusing messaging over this last joint session for October. I said i would do it on the 25th, released a show on the 25th saying that and then i ended up canceling it a few hours beforehand. And it wasn't any super serious emergency thing but because of the fires and the Santa Ana winds A lot of people were without power It took me just a lot longer to do anything I was stuck in serious traffic when I canceled I also saw that part of my zip code was getting power shut off, couldn't get a clear answer on exactly where the lines were drawn. And I knew some other people who are having a hard time dealing with all the inconveniences too So it wasn't the biggest deal in the world but it was a lot of logistical inconvenience and...I don't think I've cancelled a single one since they started but unfortunately I just couldn't make it happen

1:19:13 I would just move it back a week, but i'm gonna be in Florida for the last week of October for my brother-in-law's wedding. Congrats to Dave and Katie! I haven't learned the dance routine for The Time Warp yet but there's still time and that's why the fifth show of October is coming out a little early too. I gotta get on a plane tomorrow you know? Gotta work hard though...to play hard so here we are That said, if you want more THC. If you like the first free hour. If you enjoy how much I try to pack into a show and how little downtime we have compared to some of your other options please think about signing up for THC+. You get an extra hour each episode MP3s of the Hireside cover songs all that good stuff! And $8 is like a tip on dinner Hopefully this show is worth that to ya

1:20:08 because I do try my best to make it as good as i'm able to make. In today's plus show like I mentioned, It got really really good if you ask me and it was hard even find a good place to split this thing because the breakdown of the Path of Souls cosmology took awhile to explain and is also important in making this overall show sound complete but in the second hour The Great Greg Little does walk us through a deeper look at the path of souls cosmology We talk about why Mr. Little thinks control of the masses by the elite was a big aspect of mound builder culture, we get a breakdown of Greg's book Grand Illusions like I mentioned and hit that sweet spot lately plasma based intelligences that impede on our reality Man! Great month Eileen DeMacusic David Eick Eric Dollard

1:21:00 I hope you agree. I don't love the fee, but commercial and sponsor-free is the way to be if you ask me And i guess that's it from San Diego's own stoner Dr Seuss! I'll see on the other side of Jack Skeleton Day Your move history whitewashers mound culture oppressors and plasma beings permeating our reality You're fucking... Oh no, you see The world isn't random, it's attached to puppet strings Control over the thing The 9-to-5 has tried to steal ya Now don't that job seem silly? Hello, can you hear me Or should I play back recordings from some spying agency Wish we were younger

1:22:02 I'll be thankful when it's all exposed The vast conspiracy There is such a difference Between me and the Denver Hello from the higher side Calling out 1,000 crimes They'll tell you that stars

1:22:38 Of everything that's been done And they'll call my own deception Of the web that's been spawned Hollow from the higher side The earth is hollow I They'll tell you about something That no one else will Have you heard of? Have you heard about the real since the wrong? People know they're cartoons It's so typical of me to talk about this stuff I'm sorry, that's good and well Did you ever hear the argument That nothing really happens it's no secret

1:23:44 And that the best is plumb It's doubling your time Call out from the higher side They're calling out a thousand cards They'll tell you something The elite have done and they'll call out deception On the web that's been spun Hello from the high side Challenging your path And I'll tell you something That the battle's begun But we can't fight it with violence The mind's where it's won As the world, as the world Hello from a higher side

1:25:12 They're calling out our crimes. They'll tell you, hey! The elite have done and they'll call out the deception of the web that's been spun from the higher side challenging your paradigm And I'll tell you But we can't fight it with violence The mind's where it's won, that's the rule