Dr. David Shoemaker | Thelemic Magick, Aleister Crowley, & Finding Your True Will

00:00 Hey what's up Greg this is Isaac Weishaupt from IlluminatiWatcher.com I was just reading on your Facebook that article about how they believe the North Koreans didn't have the infrastructure or the capability to actually do their supposed hacking of the Sony emails and whatnot and i just thought that was interesting because I also received an email from someone that has some other released information that shows Sony actually talked to the State Department to see if this was a good idea because originally the film, The Interview was supposed to have a generic kind of

00:37 nation like in the Bullrat movie, The Dictator. It was supposed to be a generic nation but they decided to change it to North Korea after talking to the government and the Rand Corporation was involved so there's all kinds of weird buggery with all this In fact back in I think June I posted an article on my website where I was talking about how the movie poster looked like the Baphomet, the horned deity And anyways, there's a lot of weird stuff going on with the interview. I'd like to hear what else you've got on that or if you have any more takes on that. Thanks! Peace!

01:31 In the 1930s, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed a nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the Fireside Chats. His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times. But well, it's 1930 and I deal with a different kind of fire! For a new era of worldly frustration we offer a fresh conversation. I'm Greg Carlwood... These are The Hireside Chats How's it going Irish Sideshatters? Drinking that drink, smoking that smoke. From sunny San Diego I'm Greg Carlwood last show of the year and a big thanks to Isaac Weishaupt who was my guest a few weeks ago talking about the Illuminati in hip-hop for calling into the THC voicemail app and leaving me a little something to start the show with

02:16 That is really interesting that the government might have actually encouraged them to make the film about North Korea specifically and only time is really going to tell if this is a start of back-and-forth that gets engineered into larger conflict with them or it just kind of goes away but I think I've seen enough at this point put my money on the idea they were legitimately hacked by private group who seems also had some insiders, or at least one I think they did a lot of real damage. Things like Project Goliath were exposed to show that Sony had been conspiring with the other major movie studios to take down the free internet That is a real story here, and that's really what we need to ward off in the future or they're gonna box me out

02:56 Me and a million other people who are affecting the revenue stream of the old guard, not something they enjoy. But then I think they did take that opportunity to spin that story into an ad campaign for The Interview. The news media was more than happy to waste a week or two on that instead of the CIA's torture report that came out around the same time. Because if you remember right before this interview drama started every news organization had some headline like should we charge Bush & Cheney? What is going on?! And then it all disappeared. So yeah, it became a win-win for Sony and the US government For multiple different reasons and I'm not surprised they are masters of spin and manipulation But fingers crossed this episode's gonna be on the internet long after this drama is over and anyone who's grabbing at thinking They're listening to show about magic is not gonna want to hear me ramble on about this old movie anymore so let's not waste any more time before we get down to the topic at hand and that topic is

03:51 Thalema and Magic Dick. And if nobody was getting results, I'm not so sure they'd be around all these years later. And we've talked to Lone Milo Dequette of the OTO about their angle in the past We've also talked with Alex Bolin of The Alex Cast about Chaos Magic. We talked to Simon Parks about his Illuminati family who's apparently on the magic side of the power pyramid and today we're gonna tap right back into that magic vein with Dr David Shoemaker

04:38 In a more practical, down-to-earth way he does a great job of explaining the new vocabulary involved. Breaking down the groups and names that we hear about. Like for me now I feel like if i was going to pursue this further I'd probably go towards AA rather than OTO but you'll hear about all that And one last thing I do need to throw in here before we get into the show, is that this is the last episode of the month. So again, I take all the donations we've gotten into The Money Bomb this month and give half of that back to a random listener and have them call in to make it official This month we gave out $374 Not bad! We're going to hear from the winner His name is Isaac How synchronistic to get two phone calls from Isaac's this time around

05:22 And then we're getting real occult-y with the wordsmith and magician, Dr. David Shoemaker on the other side Hi Greg this is Isaac the December winner of The Money Bomb I just want to thank you and all the people for This Money Bomb this couldn't have come at a better time for me My wife recently got laid off from work so We've actually been cutting back on a lot of our expenses One of the next things up was the chopping block was The Hireside Chance along with our Netflix account But now we get to keep Greg Carlwood and we also get to keep Frank Underwood So that's a good thing

05:59 Seriously though, I do really believe in what you're doing with your show and I'm really glad to have been with you for this time. So what i want to do is put a lot of money back right into it so I've subscribed for my whole next year 2015 so that's all taken care plus I've had my eye on the Obama conspiracy for a while so I want to pick that up as well. As far as my favorite shows go, I really like the ones that are based off of the music industry like Professor Griff, Mr Gates and Isaac Winthrop. I think those are really interesting. The Marty Lee show was really good he has a really interesting way looking at things but i think my favorite show so far is the one with Daniele Bolelli

06:38 I hope to hear a lot more of because i like how it shows the positive steps that we could take to move forward so, I really like that. Again, I just want to thank everybody for what they've done and for you putting on this show and all the energy that you put into preparing it It's a great show! Again, thank you for everything you've done Thanks guys Alright people, we've spent a lot of time analyzing the toolbox of the planet's puppet masters and I think that we have seen enough at this point to know that there are secret sciences and magical practices that members of the power pyramid hold in very high regard. And today instead of dissecting the symbolism of Jay-Zs latest video or exploring rumors of multi dimensional demonic entities manifesting their will through contact with The Elite

07:19 We're going to dig into some of these magical practices themselves and see what we can use for the betterment of our own lives and our own understanding on that ever nagging quest for enlightenment. And today's guest is just the man to lead that charge, Dr David Shoemaker is a clinical psychologist specializing in Jungian and cognitive behavioral psychotherapy and is very well versed in the esoteric arts as well He's the Chancellor of the International College of Thelema and has been a member of the OTO and AA since 1993 where he has had over 15 years experience in supervising students in these traditions. David has also written a book entitled Living Thelema which fuses this esoteric wisdom with his knowledge of cognitive science

07:57 He also has a podcast of the same name and I can't wait to get down to it. It's a fascinating topic with a perfect guest, a guy that I would call the Dr. Drew of magic, Dr. David Shoemaker welcome to THC. Well thanks so much Greg, it is pleasure to be here Yeah man its real honor mine you're very accomplished guy in both traditional and unorthodox ways and thats something I respect alot To kinda get us started I gave some of the bullet points to your journey in that intro, but what was your journey into magic like? What got you really exploring this more seriously. Well, I came out of college more or less a scientifically oriented atheist. Had grown up with some religious tradition nothing that was ingrained too deeply on one side of my family and then my dad was a philosophy professor so i got that influence but anyway I came out of college without much spiritual or religious focus

08:56 started studying in grad school more deeply and the works of Carl Jung who as your listeners probably know frequently touches on aspects of what we might call mystical or even magical topics, mythology comparative religion. He goes way beyond the surface in terms of human psychology and so it was in reading Jung that I realized there was tugging on some part of me Spiritual path and i hadn't quite realize that the idea so three young started exploring some of the writers in western is a terrorism network influence by younger or cross reference to my. What's particularly isro regarding who of course had studied in the golden dawn tradition, instant work as curly sir alistair crowley secretary for years and read his book called middle pillar which

09:54 Is all about the interface between a cabalistic tree of life and capitalistic psychology. And union psychology so this just blew the doors open for me i realized that this was the path i had to pursue somewhere in middle school my wife took it, significant turn and really return that has shaped ever since which was to follow this path of the interface magic and psychology Right on. I mean it's fascinating stuff, but I just haven't ever taken the time to dig much further than the 101 stuff We've done a couple shows about magic and Crowley comes up pretty often But we don't ever really talk about the Lima or AA very much Can you give us some background on those groups?

10:40 Sure. Well, Thalema is not a group per se. Thalema is the philosophy or the religion overall depending on how you think of it within that much as within Christianity or any other religious approach there are different organizations So within Thalema, there's a few major threads. The Ordo Templi Orientis is a Masonic type fraternal organization that's very social in nature and that's probably the largest formal organization within the umbrella of Thalemic tradition and that's the OTO I've been a member of that since 93

11:19 The AA is an entirely different setup. The AA was Crowley's first serious attempt at forming a magical order of his own after he left the Golden Dawn in 1900 or so, So the AA is an individual student to teacher relationship that the whole organization is just based on individual relationships like that. You're assigned one teacher And there's no group meetings for the most part, there is no social events. It's entirely about your individual spiritual progress and so it's entirely different from a social group like the OTO.

11:59 1973 my teacher phyllis secular who was a student of jane wolfe and carl gomer who were students of crowley in a started the college of thalema and i continued that as the international colleges with phyllis is blessing after death so what we do at the international college of thalema is train people in group classes or individually online at a distance to get the basic foundations magical practice readings daily ritual meditation to get trained in those. Finally as one aspect of the international college we have the temple of the silver star which is an initiatory order based on the tree of life patterned on the degrees and then, and the degree symbolism of the golden dawn and we take the lima and

12:49 And it's foundational practices and teach you that over the course of an initiatory experience Where you get a particular set of practices? Based on the degree you're in and when you pass certain tests, you advance to the next degree and so on. So Those are just the things that my fingers are in but there's a lot of other smaller groups out there That are doing wonderful work within Thalema as well, right Right on. So what is it about Thelima that you would say separates it from other schools of magic? Well, the law of Thelima... I should probably define this pretty explicitly for people. The law of Thelima You've probably heard Crowley saying do with thou wilt shall be the whole of a law right and That's one of the most misunderstood things Crowley ever says as well The common misunderstanding Is that what Crowley was saying was

13:41 You can just do whatever you want and that is actually the opposite of what he was saying he was saying. That each person has a true will i formula of living a reason for their, incarnation that is deeper and truer than anything there surface personality my like or dislike the true will is. Essentially our life purpose and do what i will show me the whole of the law means, are responsibility as humans in terms of our own evolution spiritual path is to tap into understand what that rule is

14:21 And then create a life where we can do it peacefully and joyously and vigorously. And the idea is that, the more people are able to create a life of true will for themselves, The more people live that out in their lives And make room for others to do the same the better the universe works the better human society works much like. You know i need an ecosystem works best if it's a tree is get to do their thing in the grass gets to do its thing and animals get each have their own role in the ecosystem human society everything allowed be itself, what's better so do without will simply means

15:03 Fulfill your natural purpose according to your particular skills and gifts and talents, give room to others to do the same so one thing that differentiates magic from any other branch except those that have been influenced by is the law of lima as a central guiding principle for how to know what magic you should do If you have a goal, a magical goal that you want to do ritual to achieve but it's at odds with your true will. It said odds with actual laws of nature that apply to you That's quite an uphill battle You're going to be working against what the universe is trying to do And so Thelma gives us a chance to refine our ability to powerful magic

15:54 Because we're not swimming upstream. We're recognizing how we can be a part of the flow Of the universe and choosing our ritual aims to be in line with that so that's probably the most fundamental philosophical and practical difference in something that makes the lemic magic distinct Philosophically, I guess it doesn't sound that different from an eastern philosophy like Taoism or something just maybe a more active version Right yeah, I think dare I call it practical Taoism. I think Crowley was heavily influenced by Taoism, really had a lot of respect for it and other traditions as well but yeah in many ways its not that different and yet what Crowley did was brought his awareness of traditional western magical tools to the table

16:46 i am western magical construction and mystery schools training orders like that brought up there on the philosophy and created a system in both of the new that. Just unfold this beautifully and it's been great privilege in my life to see these systems in action and see that they actually work Yeah, that's the kind of aspect I love about it so much or am so interested in is that juicy stuff. And what I've heard you say that really got me jazzed up and couldn't agree more with is there a lot historical and theoretical content out there about the lema and rituals but not much practical information. That sort of been one of the major hurdles for me actually getting started.

17:32 unsure where exactly and i guess do you find that to be a pretty common problem is people not having a lot of practical information how to incorporate into the regular life yeah i mean i think that is a core problems as u you mentioned that i address that uh... quite frequently in my podcast it's it's partly that there's not enough practical instruction it's also that there's an awful lot of not so good practical instructions right And there's a lot of good stuff to don't get me wrong but there is no it's just kind of publishing field where this can be a lack of quality control, it's easy for somebody without much actual training or pedigree to decide their teacher and write stuff that has appeal but isn't actually grounded in

18:26 personal practice or the experience of many years supervising others, so you know it's It's kind of a minefield out there. So what I've tried to do is Ground everything on teaching and my actual experiences as a teacher trying to get across What I've actually noted works and doesn't work for people I never teach about anything. I haven't tried her done You know and that's in the tradition of AA no one teaches No one gets assigned to teach some course on something they haven't experimented with. And so I really tried to remedy that and i really was sick of, uh... So much emphasis purely on historical or philosophical aspects in this. That stuff is great and important but keeping that balance with really practical usable instruction was really important for me

19:20 Yeah, I think another kind of issue with this that a lot of people might have is that they want to get a clear idea Of exactly how it'll benefit their lives before they go through all the work and the somewhat daunting research And start doing these introductory rituals but it seems like the effects can be so personal that it's hard to clearly define the value of the practice before you do it, almost in a catch-22 sort of way. Would you say that's true or can you give us some idea how it could benefit people's lives? Yeah sure I think there is definitely an element here where let's take something like The Lesser Ritual of the Pentagram which is common daily

20:00 Magical brief magical ritual that people use quite frequently is just there so their bedrock what they do everyday. But you can't you can say to someone here's what you will experience if you do this one of the reasons you can say that is the experiences very another reason it's not so good to say that is that your friend load their own experience with What you've told them they're supposed to experience. Gotcha and that cuts through the intended sort of behavioral science Slant of Thalema which is try this stuff take note of your results See what you experience and draw your own conclusions about what it means So if you tell someone you're gonna get you're gonna experience this and then off to the left You're gonna see this angel appear or you know, you

20:52 You mess up their own unique and naive experience that then becomes the basis of their own progress but i can compare to something like meditation or relaxation practices. You know, you can tell someone if you do this. You're going to have a more relaxed physiological response every day. Your autonomic nervous system is going to be calmer. You're going to find it easier to concentrate and you'll probably notice mood improvements. You can say all that but until someone's done it and really experienced it, It's hard for them to grasp what that would really be like. Similarly with magic

21:35 The changes can be pretty subtle and gradual but. When you have a chance to work with the teacher or with a set of people who are consistently doing these practices you begin to see the bigger picture of effects on them you can see people who seem to be trending toward building lives that are more vibrant and they seem to be happier, they seem to doing things that are more natural expressions of what they're good at. That's kind of contagious in a good way you like being around people that are glowing like that so thats one the best ways if you want

22:16 Convince someone that this stuff works is to have them simply be around people who've been working it. Right right i totally agree with that because you might listen to guys like low milo daquette talk he's very articulate us and the things I read from crowley are also very high level and impressive. So that's kind of what I look at and determine if something has value, I feel the same way about mushrooms you know George Carlin and Bill Hicks two my favorite comedians both liked mushroom so i thought hey maybe I should try this in maybe this is where they get their insight so right yeah II definitely think there some value in trusting the messenger if you like what they're saying and if you kinda admire them look at the tools they use

22:59 Yeah, yeah exactly. It's not quite like well I'd like to be more like this person in the specific sense you know right? I want to do their job or have their personality exactly but i think when we're around someone who is really living their true will and especially if they've had some significant attainment spiritually speaking it uh... you know something resonates in us and what we want to be more alike More like someone who's living from that center as opposed to living reactively and negatively through their lives.

23:40 So I think that's the positive spiritual contagion that we're talking about. Yeah, and that's a good clarification too because it is just seeing someone who is uniquely themselves and I think that's kind of what people...a lot of people value yeah? It's not exactly mirroring this particular guru or that one but right there is just something so awesome about seeing someone who is uniquely themselves not self-conscious of it they are very one with the Tao, you know very Zen those type of people. Yeah it's something to strive for definitely and if this is a tool that gets some people there versus some other ones then great I mean i'm definitely interested in it let's tell people little bit more about the lesser ritual the pentagram It is basic 101 ritual anyone who has looked deeply into this will have heard of it but for someone who wanted an idea of good introductory practice walk us through what that looks like

24:32 Okay, sure well just quickly on the theory of it what we're trying to do with that ritual is Help the magician identify as a being that has mastery over the realm around them. The physical round they live in, the psychological round that can be symbolically understood to be represented by the four elements fire earth air and water at the center of that or at the top of that pentagram of the four elements Is the spirit so it's the four elements in spirit of the five points of the pentagram and what we're trying to do again is help the individual magician begin to build that model. Self into themselves under their conception of themselves so that

25:23 They have ability to work with parts of themselves like the fiery part for devotion and emotion aspiration or the. The area park for in subconsciousness intellect and so on so what once they had begun to build this model of inner elements, They can use those parts of self more specifically to meet their goals. So the ritual does several things, it identifies the magician with the elements and as a master of the elements The pentagram becomes therefore a symbol of what we call the microcosm that the human being is A microcosm of the entire universe

26:11 And when we want to affect something in the so-called outer world, we begin by affecting its corresponding part in the inner world. So enough theory what do you for the Pentagram Ritual? You start with what's called a Kabbalistic Cross which is based on some traditional Hebrew materials drawing across on your body and sort of locating yourself as the center of the universe so to speak And then at the four quarters you draw large pentagrams visualizing them with your mind's eye and vibrating that is intoning in a particular technique. The divine names that go with those quarters, you start in the east and move around to the southwest or north

26:56 And then you come back to the center and you invoke the four archangels which are traditionally said to oversee the well-being of humanity. In this case, that traditionally would be Raphael, Mikael, Gabriel and Uriel in the East-South West and North respectively. And what we're trying to do there is whatever these Archangels may be whether you see them as external true external entities or whether you see them as exalted aspects of self doesn't really matter because if you do this you'll discover what it is for you

27:33 What we're trying to do there, however is to help the magician become a powerful battery of force. To use the idea that these archangels were their actual presence again depending on your interpretation to be a power source for dealing with the four elements for living in a balanced way between and among the elements and exalting the consciousness to spiritual realms to get beyond the personality, to see that we're divine beings that are living in human flesh. And then the closing part of ritual repeats the Qabbalistic cross so... That's it in a nutshell and as you alluded, you know, the only way to really know what is and what does is practice that daily for a long time

28:26 Yeah, and as I understand it you can do that actual ritual for multiple purposes right? I mean there's banishing purposes or invoking purposes. Yeah Basically one of the ways Crowley talked about this all paraphrase is that the banishing makes you feel clean and Invoking makes you feel holy okay so The daily use of the lesser banishing ritual is something of a hygiene practice, magical brushing of the teeth if you will. And uh...the invoking ritual is a power up. You know? Your saying to the universe okay let the powers of the elements come into me and boost my energy level and give me um..an enhanced ability to master

29:16 My life is a god into the world and live in balance actin balance so. You got you get the basic daily rituals that can be invoking or banishing and then there are advanced rituals usually called the greater ritual of the pentagram hexagram or so on where your using versions of these rituals to invoke specific forces like Specific element you might want to do a ritual to invoke fire specifically or you might wanna do ritual to invoke the powers of. The planet jupiter are there mythological basis at the planet jupiter is one way of putting that right so yeah lots of specific ways to tweak these

29:57 Very cool. Let's talk about the true will a little more, I think this is a sexy idea for people because a lot of us are working in the register at Target or selling insurance for all state and we feel pretty expendable so the idea of this higher cosmic purpose is very intriguing or this internal drive to do something it's attractive how can we kind of start to hone in on our own and really get a good sense for our own true will? Well one of the most important things Understand about your will aside from that's not just what you want to personality level is that it's not true job is not. Your true will is to become a dentist so the person working at the register target maybe very much in line with your true well because there too well as to work at target but because there is something about the way they affect the world,

30:55 Is unique to them and would be present weather they were working at target at the register or they were a stockbroker in new york city where is shepherd in mongolia there's something about them. They are force of nature unique for some nature that does a certain thing to the world, the task of true will is to discover that that force so i teach a lot of tools and Sort of mental metal tricks ways to trick ourselves into seeing past the obvious things about ourselves and to the more the more subtle trends are personalities in our working in the world for example, can you talk about this in the book think about what happens. Do a room full of people when u walk into it how do you influence that does the room kinda get buzzy and talkative is it getting more serious desert

31:52 The people laugh more to people act you fear what was the influence you have over that environment similarly. In line with a lot of recent literature in last couple decades on finding life purpose and so on when are you going do you feel most yourself when do you feel like all the gears of your being or kind of working together the way they're supposed to and if you happy and engaged in one of those peak moments for you, Those will be clues that whatever you're doing right then may be very closely linked to your true well. For me, for example the first time I was able to stand up in front of a group of people and talk about dream analysis, I remember it like it was yesterday that was the moment when I realized that teaching a certain area subject matter was just vital for me

32:48 That was something i was good at love doing people understood it they connected so that moment probably set my compass in a way that brought me to the place of doing things like the living thing about castor teaching up and doing basketball decades. So everyone can if you pay attention confined those clues, is there some kind of way about what really makes them taken this going to be here Helping them unveil the true will. Right, I've kind of heard it described as you know you got to get to a deep deep meditative place if you were to strip everything away all the distractions all your ego and whatever's left there would be the true will

33:37 I think i think i'm mostly agree with that as stated i think what we can lay on top of that is that when you quiet down the personality and sorta societal programming about what were supposed to like her suppose to do. What are parents told us we were supposed to do or not supposed to whatever when he's triple that away in your mind is quite, Yes it is easier to hear the voice of self with a capital s as young would have called it but then the personality itself becomes, vehicle for true well its not that we are trying to discard our outer personality in this and are you know what the way we interact an outward way what happens is that becomes a tool it becomes in fact the perfect tool.

34:25 For the execution of our true well when we use it mindfully so for me i'm a fairly introverted person by nature and therefore the fact that i got into. Being a psychotherapist in the night sit in quiet rooms with one person at a time most my days that or that i am I'm able to lecture to a room full of people, but in my own sort of down-to-earth quiet way. You know? I'm not a showman or something. So for me and my true will those aspects of personality are not limitations they're actually fulfillments of true will But for someone else those would screw them up you know Someone were trying to... They determined that their true will was

35:16 You know be a circus performer or something that was an expression of it then the introversion and lack of desire to. Be in the spotlight all the time i work against them so what are we trying to say at essence is just that the personality, rightly understood is quite usable as an aspect of the expression of true will and it's quite valuable. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense it's not about getting rid of it just more like fine-tuning I guess what makes us us? Making that ego transparent rather than making it vanish entirely we still need to work in the world. Well said

35:57 Another one of the aspects that I'm really interested in is the idea of contact with something non-human, some non human entity. But there's many different opinions on what or who is being contacted with these rituals we've kind of talked about that a little bit already but Some do say you're just communicating with higher aspects of the self. Some say there's a whole hierarchy of beings, some think there is just a particular basket of beings that you can communicate with... What's your interpretation of this non-physical realm that we are dealing with and these entities? Well, again it is another place where it is really helpful to not define it for people You know when when you're doing it

36:40 Over time and you have multiple experiences and you take note of what those are a new track that your form your own opinions about. What's the reality things in one of those opinions that you have to form for yourself is am i does it seem like im talking to a true external entity or not or maybe Maybe there's some way in which it's both, you know where it's an aspect of self and a truly external entity. But I always am very careful to just make sure people come to their own conclusions about this. I can tell you for sure though that my experience and the experience of many magical practitioners in this tradition is that there are sure as hell times when what it feels like is there's another nervous system in the room, and you're talking to something that is beyond talking broadly speaking,

37:42 Consciousness wise with something that is well beyond anything you've ever thought of yourself seems to be speaking with a voice in the consciousness and perspective on the universe quite different from anything you know this yourself so those experiences are definitely are definitely out there and real. Then what do you do with that experience? How do you interpret that? Mm-hmm. How do you file that away in your in your database and learn from it, but it's a fascinating thing And that's one of those one of those things I didn't necessarily know I was Tripping into when I started this work. I just knew I wanted to

38:27 explore a spiritual path and find some mystery, you know? And yet here I am talking to angels. Yeah, that's why I get so much anxiety before a show like this. Before interviewing someone on topic like magic because i like to break these things down and define them and go through all the fundamentals but as topics like this is just so slippery and subjective that it is really hard to nail those types of things down And I get it on one level but on another level you'll hear me asking the same kind of questions over and over again

39:04 Let's talk about the Holy Guardian Angel. I see this term being used a lot in Thelema and at first, I was really turned off by it because of the religious context but that is just my own problem, I guess. Tell us about that? This is apparently a big aspect of Thelema right? Yes! In the system of AA everything the magician is doing for probably the first many years of their practice Is all directed towards this attainment that call the knowledge and conversation of the holy guardian angel. All the magical tools you're practicing all of the different traditions experiment with meditation everything, the entire unfolding of your life in fact is pointed toward this attainment and reason for that reason for the emphasis on that is that this attainments

40:04 represents a stage of conscious connection between the everyday ego and the deeper self. A connection between our normal waking consciousness as a human, and real divinity that lives within us and can be experienced as an external being that is our special...our personal god essentially. And Once we have had this once we afforded this conscious connection the knowledge of true will is much much more conscious and explicit our ability to act on it and make a effective change in our lives is there for enhanced also because the more specifically we know what are you will is the more.

40:56 ease we have in making a life that creates space for it, you know? That facilitates it. So the knowledge and conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel—and knowledge and conversation are both archaic terms for sexual contact by the way... Hey now! ...so there's an ecstatic component here. Knowledge and Conversation of the HGA is, for most people the pinnacle of their personal spiritual development. And you know, as we were talking earlier about being around people that really make us excited because they're being themselves fully? This is the shining example of that principle—that when you're around someone who's had this attainment it's not just that you feel them being fully themselves is that you feel them kind

41:46 You know you can sort of see in their lives and in their eyes like there's something much grander coming through, and the way they interact and the way they live. And these folks will be more rare in todays world so yes everything is aimed at the HGA for a long time in our past and theres more to do after that but thats the pinnacle of attainment for most humans right now Crowley felt that getting society human society to be a place where the X or the expectation was that everyone was going to have this experience is What he was brought to do, you know to teach that next step of evolution spiritual evolution for humanity Can you imagine what can you imagine what the world would be like if? If it were assumed that You go to school and instead of you go to school and you

42:43 go to college and then you get your job in your work there fifty years in the new start it instead of that being assumption if the assumption that everyone was gonna go on this journey. And all our educational systems and societal structures were set up to honor that and promote that. That's huge, I think that was Crowley's vision. Yeah radically different world Do you think this is something that... This communication with the HGA do you think this is something that comes more naturally to some people than others? Well I will say that, and i'm probably mostly just echoing Carl Jung here. That I think these inner journeys are sometimes easier for introverts in terms of coming more naturally to them because the inner world of an introvert is the main place they live And it's the main place they get their energy It's a main place They want to go when they want to recharge

43:46 You tell an introvert okay i want you to sit quietly for half an hour and meditate it's gonna be easier for them to swallow probably than somebody who would rather be out. Add a party right parties are great but not necessarily the things that facilitate spiritual growth, Right, it's so hard for me to sit there and focus. It definitely is I can sit there and play a deep video game for a good six hour session and not move. I could watch an entire season of The Sopranos without getting off the couch but if you want me to just sit there and clear my mind well... You got about five minutes before i lose interest in that

44:23 I have a deep philosophical interest in it and i'll read about all day but to actually sit there and do it, its very trying. Yeah it is but it's trainable that why the main trait you need no matter what your personality is or proclivities are as being social or otherwise persistence and self-discipline Are really the core skills that are gonna feel anyone's attainment no matter who they are there can i have some aspects of their personality that i can occasionally get in the way you go. Eventually really want to figure out that it is,

45:02 Going to be less important than it used to be finds ways too. Who object that find ways to assert itself and insist that we pay attention to it and do what it wants and it's like a little kid that's tantruming in some place but that's trainable with persistence and self discipline perseverance i've never seen anyone work the system of example And fail it interesting what happens is people stop doing it right yeah they may lose interest in a decide some other thing appeals to the more, never seen anyone stick at it and do step by step the system. And not get the desired results that's as i was saying about how gratifying spend to see this is the work thats exactly what im talking about over and over again people walk these steps insure enough

45:57 They they work and that really makes me happy as one of the things that made my teacher Phyllis the happiest is well when she was he someone have success just lighter up absolutely do you see a place I don't know if it's talked about that often but do you personally see a place for psychedelics in this practice at all i think a lot of people. Experience with psychedelics that and this is not a unique perspective for me by any means but kind of shows them the possibilities for alternate ways of. Receiving universe in person ourselves yes and so when you when you had that if you haven't had that it's probably trickier to imagine that is worth striving for if you have a taste of that i think its easier

46:45 To go out you know i wanna get back there and a sustainable way yeah the practices were discussing here are definitely sustainable ways of. Staying tapped into some of the types of visionary consciousness that psychedelics can at least give us glimpses up where the problems can come in when people are not working with an underlying basis of Self-discipline and training to make the most of those experiences or when the When the drugs become The end rather than the means yeah, but that's highly individual but dance your basic question I think yeah. I've seen a lot of people have experiences with psychedelics that are

47:33 that fuel or inspire their subsequent work. Yeah, I think you're spot on the way you said it shows you the possibilities because for me that is exactly what has happened i mentioned a really hard time meditating but I've had psychedelic experiences where I really did feel like I was communicating with something outside of myself and so it's like yeah now that I validated that there's something there and isn't all just hocus pocus maybe now I should go back in perfect interaction you know in a more sustainable way Right I couldn't agree more with that let's talk about. Crowley is holy guardian angel he i guess he used to talk about communicating with a was is that who he would consider his yeah we are and it's sad,

48:18 The entity that he apparently first encountered consciously when the Book of the Law, which is the foundational religious text of Thalema was what Crowley called dictated to him and he served as the scribe in 1904 in Egypt. So this is a relatively brief book in three chapters and his experience was through various circumstances was told to go to a particular place three days in a row and just be ready to write so his experience as he described it was there was it was as if someone standing over shoulder speaking voice. Can you write all down so we never claimed actual authorship of

49:05 the book of the law or other holy texts of the lemma he felt it was that the channel for them in modern parlance these would probably be called channeled writings but you didn't use that term i was with this entity later came to realize that i was became a feel that i was not some random entity there was dictating this stuff to him but was actually his own holy guardian angel and uh... he had he spent the rest of his life refining That relationship and one former another so what about long was just another entity earlier entity that he channeled there some circles in the lima subsets of people to place a lot of emphasis. On that i am not one of them but uh,

49:52 Yeah, Crowley had contact with a lot of beings over the years in various rituals sometimes on purpose in terms of let's call forth the spirit of Mars and interact with it. And other times he would just be kind of in a trance state and ask for a guide to get a particular answer or question or have assistance with a project of some kind and something would present itself so yeah, Lon was along those lines. But again, I'm very hesitant to draw conclusions for anyone about any particular... the nature of any of these entities. Right yeah, of course so if there's a whole plethora of possibilities of contact with some type of entity is there a way we can tell if we're communicating with our true Holy Guardian Angel versus some other entity? Like is there a distinct difference

50:49 You know i often talk about this using a metaphor of a radio receiver where what we're trying to do over the course of our early training is that is before knowledge and conversation. What were trying to do is refine our ability to tune in this radio to receive that one particular station, that's the voice of our angel And maybe in this day and age, the metaphor of turning a big dial on a radio is not something anyone relates to anymore. But you're trying to tune it in and you hear it and then you can't find it again or you find the wrong station or you turn past it and then you can't get back to it but eventually you know exactly how to tune into that one particular voice, that one particular station that you have come to recognize has a certain quality

51:43 that speaks through and as your deep conscience. that has a quality of realness to it, that is entirely unique. And if you've walked the steps of AA under competent supervision there are checks and balances in place all along the path to make sure your refining specific tools that you need in order to be able to make that determination so thats one of the important things about this structured training There are safeguards and you're building up your toolbox along the way so that when the time comes, you've quite organically arrived at a place where your able to distinguish the voice of the angel eventually from any

52:33 million other voices that we have running through our heads all the time. Right on, so you think that's the value of something like the OTO versus like Chaos Magic is having that ritual step-by-step So you're ready? Well the step by step training in terms of the HGA is not OTO per se but more more VA or Temple of Silver Star and groups like that That's just where we aim our training Gotcha But yeah I mean Chaos magic is interesting that's another thing that people can use the term anyway they want essentially and it's sometimes hard to know that in like left hand right hand path, people say those things and you never know what their exactly meaning by it because it means so many different things to some of the people but yeah basically.

53:23 If we don't learn the alphabet were not gonna be able to put words together as competently and once we've learned the alphabet we may decide you want a rearrange it throughout the rule book in that school but if you throw out the rule book before you learn the rules, you're not working with your foot with the full power that is available to use so sometimes i think. People are drawn to chaos magic because it seems frankly easier. It seems like a more direct path, just getting into doing magic and

53:59 It may be more direct, but if you end up taking longer because you haven't learned the alphabet it's not faster. Right? It's just diving in headfirst and then realizing that you want to learn some swimming skills first. Yeah that's a great analogy! One last thing on that I don't want to take anything away from the value of experimentation and innovation People i don't want people to be afraid to experiment and try different techniques so that's not saying to do that or trying to devalue that but i am trying to emphasize the value of having some structure to it. So is there a

54:45 I guess to make this a little less broad for people, or a little less abstract. Is there are typical process to this kind of courtship? I know one the biggest milestones that people talk about is receiving the name of their holy guardian angel but i'm unclear if there any other big milestones along the process where you know... People feel like they've reached a new level outside of that one of knowing the name So milestones before full knowledge and conversation. Getting the name is a big one, which incidentally doesn't always happen earlier in the path sometimes that's later but it's not uncommon for that to happen earlier There is this certain stage which I've noted tends to happen around

55:37 not to get overly jargony here, but there's a grade of the AA system called Zelotar which corresponds to the sphere of Yesod on the Tree of Life. And at that stage there tends to be a breakthrough in awareness of the life force flowing through us essentially kind of a particular brand of Kundalini awakening and awareness that Marks another stage of this building relationship with the angel it's like we recognized certain symbols that start to vibrate within us. I'd like the name and then we recognize that in many senses the power that we have previously thought about as this universal force outside of ourselves is actually working through us so thats another milestone

56:31 At later stages, still before knowledge and conversation you get refinements to ritual and symbol. To clarify what you're essentially doing in the movement towards knowledge and conversation is building your own religion. And you are the prophet, you are the high priest or priestess The rituals and symbols and ritual gestures forms of worship ultimately will be. Crafted in an entirely unique way just for you and your angel and that happens very very organically as you go through the process so it's not exactly a like a bell ringing kind of milestone like some other things but

57:18 It's incredibly important that you find your given all the tools you need and i have to do is be paying attention and learn how to increasingly integrate them into your. your acts of worship, essentially. Yeah it's fascinating stuff but I am curious if we were meant to have this connection with a particular spiritual entity you know a lot of people say that this entity is there waiting for you just waiting for you to learn the language to communicate with it It's there already You know if we're supposed to have this why does it require so much work and attention and focus rather than being more of just an automatic thing?

57:57 I think one of the answers to that is human society's relationship to our egos. We have a society, particularly in the West that doesn't do a very good job at all helping us listen inwardly you know we don't have a very meditative society we are extroverted kind of louder and faster is better society and to some extent what we have to do Is the program ourselves from the focus on the outer and refocus that on the inner i think. We also have to build our personality before we can understand how do you use it and so maybe the first half of our lives into our thirties probably least were finding out who we are,

58:49 And if we don't, just as a simple human personality. If we don't know who we are yet then how can we really discover the unique ways to use who we are to execute our true will? If you see what I'm getting at that... Yeah well said! You know we've gotta see with tools are before we can use them and so thats another reason you know we don't just pop out of the womb with cosmic consciousness. We've got to build ourselves into a person and then take it from there. Right on, so the fact that our society isn't catered to these types of things do you think that's by unfortunate coincidence or do you think its more by design? By powerful people who don't want to see the masses unlock this potential I don't think

59:46 Most people in power are that smart. And so I don't think it's totally chaotic, but I think it's mostly a byproduct of the subtle and obvious ways we're trained to focus on commercialism and Sort of the remaining frontier mentality of our cultural heritage in the US. You're just supposed to be going somewhere instead of being somewhere? Yeah, yeah. You're supposed to be building something rather than simply being in what you built that kind of stuff is pretty endemic and sometimes so deeply ingrained that we don't even realize we haven't stopped

1:00:37 To just be, you know. Yeah and that's one of the big questions for me is if we just ended up in this situation by coincidence or if somebody way more knowledgeable than us you know someone in the higher echelons of the power pyramid actually got the ball rolling on a course that was going to be completely the polar opposite of the internal path And I guess, you know it's more just a thought exercise and entertainment because there's really no whether the answer is A or B. It doesn't really affect one's individual journey all that much but it's fun to think about yeah yeah certainly so let's talk about some more of these various practices I guess can you tell us a bit about astral projection? I've heard this come up in a few of your podcasts Yeah

1:01:23 Well, but basically what we're saying is that there's this entire realm of mind that is every bit as rich probably more rich because it's infinitely varied than the physical world. And one of the first tasks of the beginning magician is to start to see past the physical world to the underlying energetic patterns that are behind it and within and that includes the energetic patterns of mind we see the universe including humanity as being a skeleton energy and mental patterns and archetypes and so on. That the physical world is actually just the clothing on that underlying energy so if we can come to understand

1:02:14 The nature of mind and come to refine our abilities to manipulate that within ourselves and interact with it on its own plane rather than physically then the things we do in this subtle astral mental realms will tend to manifest physically. One simple way of talking about that in an everyday fashion would just be That we formulate some sort of mental conception of any activity that were about to engage in physically before We engage in the physical activity. There's right there's some sort of mental precursor to physical action and most of the time, we're doing that unconsciously And it's just you know I'll lift my arm now

1:03:00 But what if we were able to go inside and get very specific in terms of the kinds of thought forms that we're manipulating and shaping? And what if we learned to put that to use, the magical ends that we desire. So astral projection is one way of talking about going into this mental realm, it's often experienced as an out-of-body experience where you have some transfer of consciousness from it seems from the physical body to some energetic body that you then travel in

1:03:47 I feel like you arrived at some sort of entirely on earthly non earthly landscape and your interacting with beings in that context and you get information from the menu. You know your able to get insights into yourself and the nature of the world, the universe in ways that you wouldn't get if you were simply reading a book or interacting with the outer world. So we can train ourselves to get better at... If you want think about it as leaving your body or simply going into another state of consciousness, you can get better at doing this

1:04:33 How i train people and astral projection in what's called scrying which is specifically a different techniques of tapping into the knowledge of these different realms of mind. Well man we pretty much ran the gambit are there any other major modalities that you think are important to point out that we might have missed. Well just let the psychologist and me come at it at the end here, In a specific way i think one of the things i address fairly uniquely within the western magic tradition is the use of for example cognitive therapy cognitive behavioral therapy approaches. Within the context of magical path so got a chapter on this and podcast episode on this where we help our personality be foundation for a magical work by not

1:05:31 Letting it be all bogged down in negative thinking and self defeating attitudes and you know that kind of stuff i think many magicians actually under emphasize having a sort of balance healthy personality. because they recognize that's not the end goal of what the work we're doing, but it won't help you much if you dive into intense magical work but your life is a wreck and you can't regulate your emotions or you can't... That's the foundation you're building on. So I'm just putting in a plug for that additional angle on modern magical practice using

1:06:14 what we know from a century plus of psychological science and integrating that. Right on, good to know! So yeah very awesome I love talking with you man before we really call it in would like leave the people with some more information about your website book or anything else you got going on? Sure sure as far as the book and podcast the best single source for that is just go to livingthalema.com And you'll see information about the book and also, uh. The podcast if you go to iTunes all of the podcasts episodes I've done for the last four or five years are archived there for download and subscription can also go to feed a fever dot com and search for living flame if you don't prefer to use itunes

1:07:06 If you're interested in the kind of training i've been talking about, The International College of Thalema is one gateway for that. That's intcot.org and the deeper tradition of the AA, that 1 to 1 training I have been describing Is accessible via onestarinsight.org And for those interested in the more sort of social fraternal and group oriented training of the Masonic type, you might be interested in Ordo Templi Orientis. Around the world that headquarters site for that is oto dot org or in the US it's oto dash USA dot org so lots of resources out there lots of great people doing important work and

1:07:55 If anyone out there listening to this is called to this particular adventure, don't hesitate to get in touch with one or more of these groups. Very nice! Well thanks again man it's been super insightful great show you've cleared up a lot of stuff for me very much appreciated keep doing what you do and take care yourself out there all right man Alright, thanks. It's been very very enjoyable being here Thanks for having me on you got it there we have a people practical magic for an impractical world I love it. I thought that David was a great guest for that so big things to him in the plus show We talked about astral projection crossing the abyss

1:08:33 Tarot, Devonation, Crowley's Age of Horus, Alchemy, Healing Magic and that oh so sweet Sexual Magic. So you can always support the show with that $5 subscription at TheHigherSideChatsPlus.com and get down with that And the THC Plus subscribers also got their first exclusive which was An interview I had with Gerald Salenti from The Trends Research Institute talking about the economic and geopolitical trends to look for in 2015 You can also get that if you decide to sign up for Plus. But I have to say, this year as it's coming to a close has been hands down the best year of my life and i feel like im saying that all the time to you guys and trying to toe the line between showing appreciation and acknowledgement for how lucky I've become without bragging about it because I never wanted to come off like that

1:09:21 But for people who aren't linking up with me on social media sites, you should know that we're kind of becoming a big deal. Just last week we outranked Alex Jones on iTunes by like five places and the week before that We ranked 31 across all the podcasts on Stitcher Joe Rogan was number eight? We ranked higher than Ground Zero and Mysterious Universe And Duncan Trussell and even Mark Maron who's... considered to be one of the godfathers of podcasting. Those are big names and I'm just some San Diego stoner, just one guy It's kind of funny And also not long ago i got contacted by the show Portlandia who wanted to use my Riot Cop shirt from conspiracies on their show and that should be coming up in January in a new season but have no idea what extent you'll see this shirt but it was enough for them to hunt me down to sign a release and I'm just saying that all these good things have happened

1:10:11 and sometimes we'll do a magic show, and I'll comment about how I like magic in an abstract way but I don't see the effects in my personal life. And it was a listener who wrote me an email and really brought it to my attention made me rethink that because there is plenty of magic in my life. And I might not be doing a lot of formal study or participating in an initiatory brotherhood but you're not gonna hear me saying that again maybe I was expecting something more tangible but when you really reflect on it or when I reflect on it It's very obvious there is magic there, so I don't want to curse myself by saying there is not. And it really has been the best year of my life! I can finally say that I've made in one of my favorite cities in the country which is a hard one to make it in. I have a better partner than ever thought I would have she has been absolutely great and a long time coming fueled by my hate for my retail management job The hole I was in for 10 years I built THC and with the help every great guest

1:11:06 And all those who have co-hosted with me, Dave, Romeo, AdamGorightly, my main dames Kyle and Jake. There's been a lot of positive support that was needed along the way and from the listeners as well But because of all that I've been able to climb out of that hole! I guess i really still don't know how it happened But some people have been following this show through it all, and I hope that you found something in my journey that you can take into your own life and use as an example of how to work towards building something that you love. And to tie into today's show is in tune with your true will." And I think THC is very much in tune with mine There was a famous quote that I really liked that's something to the effect of... And when I was stuck, I had a bitter easy for you to say attitude. And it was like instead of looking at positive examples and taking in that advice... ...I would find something about that person's success that I didn't have and make an excuse why I couldn't do that. Well its easy for him to make it his dad was so-and-so or whatever but thats just a trap

1:12:05 Don't do that. Because if I can make something work, honestly anybody listening to you can as well and as i've said before the best jobs out there are the ones that you create And If your stuck at a job you hate at Best Buy or Home Depot How did you get there? It's just interesting because it is easy to feel helpless in a job that you hate but you filled out the application So in reality you manifested exactly what you put into practice And then you sit there and feel like nothing you put into practice ever manifests. It's kind of a weird thing! I was in the same boat myself, and I'm still just kinda stumbling along trying to not fall on my face...and so far so good i guess but Portlandia would have never called me up if I didn't

1:12:51 I couldn't have ever beat Alex Jones if I didn't first start with a show that nobody was listening to. And I'm confident there's a life of great, harmonious positive magical things just waiting for you to step into it but nobody can point you directly to it except you because only you know what will work and be perfect for your situation Your skills and personality the best well, I guess maybe your holy guardian angel can help you out but other than that. I don't know I just wish the best for everybody and many thanks to you for sticking with THC Hopefully i'll be doing this for some years to come And I think that's gonna put the period on THCs 2014 here's to everybody having a happy and joyous time crossing The Abyss into the big 2015 and I'll see you there peace

1:13:41 I get a strange magic, strange magic Oh it's a strange magic Got a strange magic Got a strange magic I put ladles in my mind Making waves across my time Oh no, oh no I get it Strange magic, a wonderland Strange magic, always Strange magic Strange Magic, Magic

1:15:02 I'm never gonna be the same again Now, I've seen the way it's got to end Sweet dream, sweet dream It's magic, it's magic Oh, it's a love-it's magic It's magic, sweet magic It's magic

1:15:47 It's magic! It's magic! Strange Magic! Strange Ma- Oh it's so good! Magic! Got it? Strange Magic! Magic! It is not perfect, but... Strange Magic! Got it?! Strange Magic

1:16:33 Strange Magic