Dr. Colin Ross | MK ULTRA: Mind Control, Psychiatry, & The CIA

00:05 That's true, Dr. Seuss! Allllright, Hiresight Chatters. When we examine the crimes of the Deep State Alphabet Agencies few projects are more nefarious than the mind control and mental manipulation that spiraled out of a world we call MKUltra

00:56 Electroshock treatments, fracturing personalities, brain electrode implants, radiation experiments, LSD dosing and more in the quest for domination over the mental domain. And while we're told MKUltra is long gone it seems like the mind-bending practices developed during that time and their general knack for brainwashing have only gotten more refined Well folks, when you follow these threads on the conspiracy cardigan you might find yourself in disbelief that the mind of man seems easier to program than a goddamn Roomba. And these influential and suggestive techniques are found everywhere from advertising and compulsory schooling to religions cults and military operations It's a lot to wrestle with then we can avoid thinking about it but it's not going away So here to talk to us about the history of these projects separate the facts from the fantasy and give us a window into the world of mind control is Dr Colin Ross

01:45 Dr. Ross is an internationally renowned clinician, researcher, author and lecturer in the field of disassociation and trauma-related disorders He's the founder and president of the Colin A. Ross Institute for Psychological Trauma And has been running a hospital based trauma program in Dallas Texas since 1991 He's also authored 29 books and over 200 professional papers, has reviewed for numerous professional journals and is a past president of the International Society for the Study of Trauma & Disassociation. Some of his book titles include The CIA Doctors, Human Rights Violations by American Psychiatrists, Military Mind Control A Story Of Trauma And Recovery, and The Great Psychiatry Scam. He's a bona fide expert and I'm psyched to have him here! Dr Colin Ross welcome to the Higher Side

02:33 Hey, thanks for having me on board. Yeah man I very much appreciate you coming here to talk to me we get into subjects like the broad MKUltra umbrella fairly often but it's rare that someone with a career in the field of psychiatry who has actually read all the declassified documents is willing to come down to my level so big thanks for that and uh... to get the ball rolling here i find that a lot of time people have gone through this standard progression of their profession are usually the ones most in denial about the conspiratorial aspects of their wheelhouse. Can you tell us a bit about how your work ended up crossing into these areas that a lot of people wouldn't want to touch?

03:13 Sure so i wanted to psychiatry from medical school did my secretary training in canada i grew up in canada. From nineteen eighty one nine hundred ninety five and then i was an academic psychiatrist in canada from eighty five to ninety one at that point when i moved from canada to texas where have been since i had zero interest in mind control all that kind of stuff I was starting to hear a little bit about the tannic cold kind of eighty eight and then eighty nine ninety ninety one quite a bit about it. What i didn't really encounter anybody describing organized satanic cults in canada then late ninety when i moved down to the dallas area, and start hearing quite a bit about who i grew up in a satanic called miss happened that happened

04:07 And then within a few months I started hearing stories of well, when i was a kid i was taken to either military base or some sort of hospital all these experiments were done on me and it was some sort of military intelligence not quite clear set up people. So initially i just thought no i don't think so that's pretty fantastic but i decided look into it And so looking into it meant reading fairly small number of books that had been published at that point, nothing in the professional literature at all. Then applying to the CIA through the Freedom of Information Act and getting 15000 pages of MKUltra Bluebird Artichoke documents that had all been declassified in mid 70s So I really got into it from hearing accounts from patients and thinking hmm seems pretty doubtful

05:02 But the more I got into it, the more documentation and the more documentation and the more evidence built up. Wow! That's really fascinating. Is it fair to say that it seemed like possibly people who were subjected to this type of stuff in their childhood? Maybe they always talk about mental blocks being put on this stuff. Is it fair to say that maybe some of that was dissolving or their programming was breaking down and they were finding themselves going to civilian doctors or is that a stretch? No, that's not a stretch at all. That seemed to be what was happening so of course you couldn't go to like the standard textbook and find out what was going on right? Everybody was kind of scrambling to figure out how much of this is real how much it's not real or how much it's going on are the psychiatrists being kept under surveillance themselves in the therapist

05:53 Are patients being planted in therapies to keep an eye on what the therapists are doing? So there's quite a lot of paranoia and concern, confusion and uncertainty. Well documents are great because you know then we don't have to guess! And having read through the MK Altered documents that were released even though they're probably only a fraction of this type of stuff What can you tell us about where they officially start and end Well, first of all the public domain documents are definitely just the tip of the iceberg. And World War I started as we know with the attack on Pearl Harbor in 41 and then US got involved and during the 41-42 era

06:37 there was a move made to sort of organize and centralize US intelligence services because they're kind of scattered and discombobulated. So this resulted in creation of the Office of Strategic Services, which became the precursor of the CIA then in 45 when the war came to an end The Office of Strategic Services would dissolve but all the personnel who had been part of it basically became members of the CIA when it was created in September 47, including Wild Bill Donovan who is the head of the OSS whose statue stands in the entrance to the CIA headquarters and Langley. So the CIA was created in 47. The first documented mind control program was Bluebird which was signed into existence by the director of the CIA April 1950

07:31 And that's an important date because a lot of the disinformation that has been put out is, well we were only reacting to what the communist Chinese were doing. All of our mind control efforts where entirely defensive in nature and we are getting these false confessions of germ warfare by our pilots who have been captured interrogated and brainwashed by the Chinese so in reaction to that we had tried to figure out what was going on but never used it offensively that's the disinformation which is just proven by the fact that the first declassified program was april nineteen fifty and the korea warden start until june nineteen fifty. So then bluebird went on for a few years it was rolled over into artichoke, and then artichoke was rolled over to mk ultra which ran from fifty four sixty four and then i'm okay alter was rolled over to mk search

08:30 which ran until nineteen seventy two seventy three and then after that everything still classified. And then parallel with bluebird archer mk ultra mk search there's a series of other projects mkne project often project darby hat, project third chance in some of those there is just a handful pages of documents so thats kinda basic timeline and history of it People often say that they either were involved in MKUltra or are currently involved in MKUltra because they use MKUltra as kind of an umbrella term for all the mind control programs, but technically that's not correct because MKUltra was a specific program that ran from mid-50s to mid 60s. I've actually heard you say in previous interviews

09:23 MKUltra is the most well known but it's actually kind of mild compared to the details of some other programs. Which are the programs that you've seen even if the information is scarce, which one seemed to be the most extreme? Project often was the one that's the most extreme in terms of there's a movie called Jacob's Ladder that was in 70s I think it was made and its story starts off with a big combat scene in jungle at Vietnam And this US soldiers are totally freaked out on some sort of trip, like a hallucinogen trip. And then it flashes back and there's all kinds of plot twists and so on but there is very paranoid chemist in the film who says that he is aware of this drug BZ which has been used in Vietnam So I thought that was just a Hollywood thing Turns out that BZ is actual compound that was tested by U.S army

10:21 and it's a kind of super LSD. So, BZ trick can last many days to be much more intense and project often describes hallucinogen experiments where people are three to four days totally like way up there paranoid, hallucinating so the side effects of project often experiments include paranoia that lasts ongoing all kinds of things. So that was the most extreme, a lot of the MKUltra projects were just they kind of divide into thirds. A third of them were just basically industrial contracts like to produce a certain chemical or drug or something that they wanted to use and a third of them were just kinda bland general academic contracts to gather some research information on some subject and the purpose of that was kinda twofold one

11:18 Just to see if the c.i.a could learn something about something of interest or former relationship with investigator and then later on bring them into the whole given security clearance and so on, i'm not a third of them were actual mind control experiments where the contractors were cleared at top secret new what was going on your money and phone but even those ones as described in the documents work that horrific Yeah, I've been into this stuff for a while and i sometimes find myself wondering where the line is between the truth and the general conspiracy world sensationalism. But even have seen some of those key documents that make it seem quite easy to control the mind even to that level of having someone fire a gun and then they have no memory of it and i'm pretty sure what i saw was from a dot gov archive but what sort of actual results have you seen in these documents from the experiments themselves?

12:16 That's mostly from the Bluebird Artichoke documents. So we're in the first half of the 50s and they describe a number things very clearly, very explicitly so the first point is not everybody is equally hypnotizable and that's well known in hypnosis literature so depends on what cut off you use but 5 to 10 percent people are quite highly hypnotizable five percent at least can like really block out physical pain have hypnotically induced amnesia and a stage hypnotist can make that happen. There's huge literature on that, it is not disputed and basically it seems like the mind control programs figured out how to select these people they don't describe selection criteria very clearly but people who are prone hypnosis they would do things like hypnotize secretary at CIA

13:10 ever go into a room retrieve some documents bring them back bringer of hypnosis she have no memory one experiment describes the hypnotize somebody and then they put up post hypnotic signal in which is if they say a certain phrase she goes into a trance state so this is normal day and somebody says that signal word to her, she goes into a trance state. She's given a briefcase should delivers it to another person who's gonna translate And the person who's receiving it thinks that it's a bomb and that they are gonna go and blow something up with that phone. And then there is also experiments where the person is told to shoot somebody that they know, and they pull the trigger thinking its loaded gun. And afterwards they have no memory for having done that. It's very clearly described you don't have to read between the lines at all. That's not hard thing to do just with fairly simple experiment in few hours

14:09 To get a really fully conditioned person, again it's not clearly described but it is months of conditioning preparation training. Ask me man and in your bio i saw something about you have spent a lot of time in shanghai actually at the medical center and done some work over there and im curious because culture, add many other factors affect mental condition. Do you have any insight from your working that is any notable differences in psychiatry there and here Yes and no. So I got into that because a colleague of mine had been over there on a kind of cultural exchange, touring different mental hospitals program and he had met the woman who was then the director of Shanghai Mental Center and they got talking she was interested in trauma and dissociation so we went over there did a series of visits organized and carried out some research projects and published a whole series of papers

15:11 So number one was incredibly interesting experience and the people that i work with were very pleasant very friendly. Very very hard working so i'm interested in finding out a little bit about traditional chinese medicine how it blends in and shanghai mental health center itself is, very western psychiatry oriented making diagnosis lots of medications being prescribed and so on and immediately across the street There was a school for traditional Chinese medicine. One time I went in there with one of the people who worked at Shanghai Mental Health Center because he was picking up some herbs, so we go into the pharmacy and there's like dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of jars of all kinds of leafy looking things and roots and powders... It was like you had traveled 10 000 miles just walking across the street because back at Shanghai Mental Health Center

16:10 They really kind of poopoo downplayed and so well, you're not traditional stuff is it really done in the cities anymore it's really out in the country we don't do that here but when they got to know us a little better than they can open up and found out. We were going to criticize the heck out of them then they obviously themselves personally using traditional chinese herbs medicine all the time but its really not integrated into the professional side of things. And so then I noticed a whole bunch of interesting things, So one was first of all not at the hospital. So I'm in Tiananmen Square walking around in Beijing because we did couple trips to Beijing and just a regular tourist here's this giant square

16:56 with Parliament buildings on both sides, Mao's tomb is there. There is a big statue that has got about six or seven or eight different people like the revolutionary soldier and the woman with the baby and the guy with the side who has been out in the fields and so on. And then at the far end of Tiananmen Square it is the largest McDonald's in the world. So that was very contradictory. So I'm standing there and i'm looking around, and in Tiananmen Square there's these metal poles that are kind of like telephone poles they're maybe a foot or a little less diameter at the bottom maybe 80-ish feet high. I look up to the top of one and little box at the top goes looks directly at me and a little red light goes flip! So clearly some government guy was doing face recognition check on

17:50 And then the other funny thing like that experience was at the hotel we stayed at near hospital which was. More of a regular chinese people hotel not big downtown first hotel there's no place to work out you can't go for run because it so crowded, and yours not too hot so i was running stairs in the hotel person exercise So i run up to the top floor was a real big hotel and i know there's one more floor so i thought that one last floor get up to the top of my look to the left. Here is this room like fifteen by twenty foot room crammed with listening equipment would this guy in military uniform who looks at me and looks kinda startled and i can't wait for him and headlight

18:38 So back down the stairs. Wow, so they have listening devices in every room is bugged and so like you can't talk about critical stuff in your hotel room I know a couple things like that and then we were talking about future research project where could we interview people. Like i personally wouldn't do the interviews but where could be interviewers get hold of people who cut on themselves and self mutilate what are the areas i study work with well, go to emergency department so how many merchants apartments arthur shanghai one hundred it's huge

19:19 So we talked about that for a while and I said, well what about going to a battered spouse shelter? Well we don't have any of those. Well what about going to a prison and interviewing female inmates in the prison because they have high rates of trauma abuse or you wouldn't be allowed in there. Why not? Well you might see things your not supposed to see. Those are the kind of little glimpses into the totalitarian state that I got. And then the other one is in their diagnostic manual, so they have a sort of Chinese version of the DSM which is much much thinner half of it's in Chinese and half is English, so its really quite thin little book and it's got some diagnoses that pretty closely resemble US ones like depression but one of their diagnosis is Qigong overutilization disorder

20:10 So Qi Gong is a thousands of year old variation on Tai Chi except it's more stationary, sitting meditating kind of practice. And the Falun Gong people who are the guys that are always getting disappeared and arrested and thrown in psychiatric hospitals they are big on Qi Gong practice so Qi Gong over utilization disorder is defined as somebody who do it get many many many hours per day and totally obsessed with that, it's interfering with their function in life and so on which sort of make sense but one of the criteria for diagnosis disorder is worse than means you require psychiatric treatment what are the criteria is thinking bad thoughts about the government.

21:01 So that's kind of like the sum total of what I saw on the totalitarian state side of things. On a more just clinical side of it, my main focus was on the similarities and finding classical cases of undiagnosed multiple personality dissociative identity disorder which we did find but the whole culture obviously works very differently so i talked to a whole series of women who had been in the mental hospital nine months two years two-and-a-half years So I'm talking to them through an interpreter and a typical story would be, well how long have you been in the hospital? Two-and-a-half years. When are you thinking you might get discharged? Well I'm not sure maybe next spring. This is why were you admitted? Well my mental illness so kind of figured out was probably likely to be the case right? Okay what kind of mental illness? Well I don't know it's just having symptoms

22:00 So this woman's telling me she has mental illness and what are the symptoms? I'm trying to get something out of her. And it's, well...I was having headaches. Anything else? Well, I wasn't being a very good wife. Oh! And that'd be about all I could get out of her. And then it's well okay so you've been here for two and half years What was the treatment you got as soon as you arrived at the hospital? Well, I got a lot of electric shock. Okay And what symptoms are you having now? Well, none. I'm better." So why aren't you thinking you're going to be going home for another six months or so?" Well my husband's not ready to have me come home yet. The doctors are not allowed to discharge the person until the family agrees to it. People are getting thrown...wives mostly...are getting thrown in by their families and getting stuck in hospital for years

23:02 Damn that's dark and it sounds kinda like the program is sucking people deeper into the system just like it seems to hear you go in for something maybe minor and then all the sudden your deep deep deep into their treatment quote unquote right except. China is kind of where we were in the 50s, right? Which is mainly due to the economics of a healthcare system. So insurance companies just will not pay for long lengths of stay and the state hospitals have downsized and there's just not that many beds available to put people in for years and years and years and years so that's why there are so many people on the street or dead

23:47 So really, unless you really got sent off to rendition on some island in the Indian Ocean or something. Most of the time you can't get stuck in a psychiatric hospital for too long these days unless you like murder somebody or something but just a regular civilian person... The average length of stay at a general adult unit these days is a week or less So as a recruitment funnel for my control program general regular psychiatric hospitals don't work that well anymore i dont think. Hmm man, so another thing I was gonna ask you about cuz I learned that it seems like he had some personal conversations with Sidney Gottlieb before he died and Yeah, I gave him a call His phone number wasn't that hard to find? That was an interesting conversation. So Sydney got labeled as the head guy for MK ultra He kind of got jerked around by the CIA basically because

24:47 All these guys basically sign national security so they can tell you too much what's the deal that protects itself and just kind of a operating principle. You don't hang people out to dry your girl part of the company and so on and so there is always them killed documents get released fifteen thousand pages, everybody's names are white it out or redacted except just by mistake a number of different times Sidney Gottlieb's name was not redacted which is how he got identified in public and then interviewed and so on. So, he wasn't too happy about that. Yeah! I called him up said hi i'm Colin Ross this is what I am doing He just started chatting away And I said well I'm reading documents and writing a book about MKUltra and so on and I know you are ahead of it and I particularly interested

25:41 A couple of individuals one of them being martin or who is the psychiatrist was cleared at top secret and he's like martin martin. Is pretending like you can remember who is this where are martin or MKUltra subproject such and such cleared a top secret 1953. Oh yeah, Martin Ornstein. And then that was the same thing with Jolly West. Jolly West, Jolly West. Yeah he's this is his MKUltra sub project this year cleared at Top Secret he worked on the following oh yeah yeah Jolly West so it was kind of this tap dance and he's rather vague and wasn't giving me much information that wasn't already out in public for decades but the one comedy made that was interesting

26:28 Oh, well there was another unit besides mine. And then he sort of went on to something else and that was the end of the conversation so that's a completely still classified program which has not been identified we don't know anything about who was in it what they did The only little clue i found through my other investigations is there's a place called the texas research institute for mental sciences and head psychiatrist who's this guy neil birch, who's very connected into the network of mind control doctors all which is totally documented in my book and he has the trims documents list. Air force contract and there's a contract number on who the investigator was what it was four and amount of money and so on

27:16 And there's three CIA contracts with the amount of money. It doesn't say what they're for exactly, but the cryptonym is XG- and then some numbers and that doesn't correspond to any of the known programs. So there has definitely been one or more probably a bunch of programs running in parallel to them culture era that are still classified that we don't know anything about at all Right that's fascinating to think about and i guess i would wonder if i'm peace in the story together,

27:54 no a person might ask why would they declassify any of this stuff it seems like maybe they had to because those people that were coming into civilian doctors and such they had to give up something and it seems like, maybe there is sydney under the bus in just said hey these people are supposed to have these memories blocked and suppressed another coming out so we're gonna throw you one of the bus in your program on the bus and its just like. kind of a limited hangout thing to give people something to chew on without really giving them the full scope of what happened. Is that the gist as you see it? Yeah, I think so but... So we have to be aware of this sequence though. The church committee and big round declassification documents happened in mid 70s and people really didn't start coming into civilian therapies and talk about this mind control stuff until

28:45 Maybe a handful but basically late 80s and into the early 90s So that whole round of declassification was not driven by people starting to talk about it in civilian therapies Much at all. So one was it was just bunch of political pressure And so they had to cough up something's so the story that's told all the time is In 1973 Richard Helms who was the head of the CIA? Ordered gottlieb to destroy all of the mk ultra mp search documents which he did except somehow seven boxes of documents sitting in a warehouse were never shredded and then by random chance in the seventies somebody discovered these, and they ended up getting declassified so that's the story.

29:33 which is possible but probably a cover story. And this exactly what you said then, probably limited hangout is an actual term so when you read background books about CIA and intelligence committee in general, you've learned that this was the term used in the intelligence committee. A limited hang out as a strategy where you let out a little bit of truth to cover up greater part of the truth And it seems like you and Cameron, who is an MKUltra contractor in Montreal was thrown under the bus publicly identified Gottlieb. And one other guy...and then everybody else's names are still redacted so it does seem like we got to give them something So we'll give them a couple little tidbits. Then what was the internal politics behind why Gottlieb got thrown under the bus? No idea

30:26 Yeah, it's a curious thing and I did want to ask you about the mental hospitals in the 70s and 80s. Obviously they go back further than that but a lot of people make the case that the closing of these facilities is the reason why we have so many mentally disturbed homeless people out on the streets there's no place for them to go and that is a fair point but these mental hospitals were hotbeds for abuse and experimentation in a lot of cases weren't they? Big time! So There's a whole series of hospitals that were either directly involved or on the periphery, and it's really sort of a diffuse network.

31:03 So like this doctor published with this doctor, that doctor edited a book that this doctor contributed to. This doctor was at this hospital and he recruited somebody from that hospital so it's just webbed you have to follow and kind of construct to see how... It is really sort very distributed network all around the United States involving not just some fringe lunatics in the basement So leading universities, Harvard, Yale, UCLA, Tulane etc. People who are editors of major psychiatric journals head of the American Psychological Association things like that

31:41 And some hospitals were more directly involved than others. So St Elizabeth's Hospital in Washington DC, that is one of my strongest bets for being heavily involved in this kind of mind control program stuff. A guy named Hudson Hoagland was very much in the network worked with another guy who was an LSD experimenter at Harvard so he was involved in this facility and that facility And this Hudson Hoagland guy wrote a book about just his experience in an normal state mental hospital, late 40s and late 50s. Which was the most insane snake pit fire hoses on the patients kind of place. So that was like average normal state mental hospital back then

32:31 40s 50s so to terrorize and brutalized and then Pull into mind control programs people out of those hospitals would have been very easy Right, and I mentioned this to you in my first email that I've always kind of had a conspiratorial interest in this stuff But it got a little personal when I learned that my mom had a brother who committed suicide before I was born And she never mentioned this until it just came up a few years ago. And the story goes that he was gay and was somehow entrapped by an undercover cop, convicted of sodomy and sent to a mental hospital where he underwent a lot of electroshock therapy. And these sorts of things to quote unquote fix him. When he was released my parents were the ones who picked him up and apparently he was just broken. A shell of his former self ended up pulling the trigger on himself

33:22 I don't know really what you can say to help me better understand what might have happened, but I guess I would ask how typical with this story be and what sort of experiences were common for a person who might have been institutionalized for this sort of thing in the 70's. The 70's is getting a little bit to the tail end of the declassified mind control programs. But we'll come back around to this, but there was basically zero possibility that all these programs stopped in 1973 It's completely implausible and actually it would be irresponsible by which I mean there's definitely mind control double spy

34:02 Sleeper agent kind of programs being run at the US by terrorists and imposing intelligence Agencies and so on. So if we weren't staying up to speed on this and trying to detect When mind-control sleeper agents are in the us, we wouldn't be doing our job as Intelligence agency military etc, etc, etc. So it's the job of the CIA in a military To be up to speed on this And it's just not believable that they said, oh well we're not even going to think about it anymore in 1973. They have to have active programs and if they didn't they wouldn't be doing their job so to me its not even worth discussing whether there is programs active up until the present besides which when you look at what we know in public from photographs and descriptions at Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib those are well designed active mind control programs those are not just a few rogue

34:58 People on the loose and the elements that we see in the pictures from abrogate going to be. Are basically all the elements of studying back in your days since you're deprivation, sensory isolation good cop bad cop techniques drugs quotes enhanced interrogations enhance interrogation is just the current sanitize turn for mind control brainwashing So waterboarding all these things are just standard interrogation techniques when you call it mind control It seems all kind of science fiction and who we believe that we don't believe it when you call it enhanced interrogation Nobody says that's not real. I don't believe in that and the purpose of enhanced interrogations are obvious You're trying to get information out of the person then you're trying to control their behavior or

35:51 and you're interested in following them post-discharge, and turning them to work for your side. So that's not disputable. So therefore all these programs are clearly ongoing." I don't know if I got off the train of thought there? Oh no! You make a great point that they're just playing with terms and these programs are very much still alive In the story that I was told about, you know this uncle I never knew. The facility in question that I haven't been able to find too much information on either was apparently the Missouri State Hospital in Fulton, Missouri and I was curious if that hospital ever popped up in the network that-that you're aware of? No, I haven't heard anything about that particular hospital

36:38 But I have heard about experimentations under the guise of treatment on gay people. So there's Robert Heath, who is a psychiatrist at Tulane and he has published whole series papers having to do with several different things One is putting electrodes in people's brains and then giving them LSD mescaline hallucinogens And tracking their EEGs to see what happens electrically in their brain when you give them hallucinogens and also using brain electrode implants to modify people's behavior, and he is directly connected to a series of doctors that do that kind of work. One of his papers which was... I forget the exact year but about 1972 or so in the Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease, he describes at Tulane

37:28 treating a guy for the mental disorder of homosexuality. So in that era, being gay was automatically a mental disorder. And so how are we going to treat this? Well he brings the guy in and this guy was early 20's He is there for about 9 months They put an electrode into his brain This is all in the paper, in the journal They connect the electrode to wire to belt that has on transmitter that has on it and he can push a button on the transmitter box which sends a signal to his brain

38:04 that puts him in kind of a pre-orgasmic state. So he's constantly being sexually aroused, and while he is doing that, he is watching heterosexual pornography so they are trying to condition him to be straight but after awhile they had to take the box away from him because he was pushing it 1500 times in a period of 3 hours. And this is just kinda what we do at the hospital no big deal just describing our research here And then towards the end, they brought in a prostitute had him have sex with the prostitute while monitoring his EEG. And then afterwards, they debriefed the prostitute who said yeah he had an orgasm and seemed to enjoy it. Then they discharged him successfully converted to being straight and said he only had one relapse in the first few months of follow-up. So this is what's published known facts

39:03 So imagine what didn't get published. Right, yeah Jesus Christ that seems like kind of the template from what I understand happened to my mom's brother so i wouldn't be surprised and I want to get a little further into the satanic ritual abuse side of things because this is another area where torture and trauma is said to fracture personalities how often Often have you dealt with patients that might not have been in government programs per se, but had mental damage from cult-like rituals and sexual trauma from a smaller more private group? Well so first of all caveat. So the sequence of advances I'm in medical school 77 to 81 nothing about childhood sexual abuse at all no training no discussion nothing then four years of psychiatry training 81 85

39:55 Again, basically nothing about childhood sexual abuse, physical abuse, domestic violence, rape, sexual harassment by professional men including psychiatrists and doctors. Total silence on all of that and then of course what happens is the women's movement starts bringing it out of the closet there are all these whistleblowers and next thing we know the official position of psychiatry shifted to Well, we always have known there's quite a lot of that going on. We just didn't have the good research and anyways kind of an iffy area in this hard to tell when then not shifted too well there's numerous numerous research projects conclusively showing that child sexual abuse is relatively common affecting no less than 5% boys and 10-15% girls if you include single act of fondling and so on

40:47 More serious like penetration level incest though, maybe 5% not less than 2% of girls in the United States That's kind of the ballpark at those statistics. Hmm and then so it went to oh yeah Well that's what's going on But it's really not that relevant to what we do treatment wise which is kind of where things are now So if you go to almost all psychiatric hospitals or almost all outpatient clinics and see a psychiatrist You're not gonna do any kind of therapy work on childhood sexual abuse No way, it's not happening. So the sequence there was total denial, it's not real, it's not happening and then with great resistance step by step oh yeah there is tons of child sexual abuse going on just kind of paralleling what we see in Hollywood today well there was always a casting couch but it was kinda joke and kinda cute thing probably the starlets didn't really mind

41:44 And now just, now it's all coming out that there has been massive sexual crime and victimization going on for decades. So the sequence is total denial and then absolute documentation proof that its been going on in a massive scale so then late 80s early 90s we start hearing about satanic ritual abuse A lot of talk about it at some conferences in the US and so the question becomes how much is real? How much is not real What kind of conspiracy is there to cover it all up so i wrote a book called satanic ritual abuse principles of treatment and red. The small amount that was the read on no professional literature and talk to kenneth landing who was on the phone who is supposedly an authority on that wasn't really,

42:33 and try to track it down, track it down. And basically the more you look into it is just like chasing shadows in the fog You never get to here's hard objective court of law level evidence of organized multi-generational human sacrifice satanic cults So then, kind of overlapping that I start hearing about these military mind control experimentation using people for agents and natural operations. And i'm going okay so which pattern is this gonna follow? Is this gonna be like totally real and the evidence comes out or is it gonna be just fog and you can't get your fingers on anything solid like the satanic stuff? And it turns out that the more I looked into

43:20 military CIA mind control, thousands of pages of documents and names of all the doctors and etc. Piled up but still to this day with satanic ritual abuse in satanic cults you can find newspaper clippings murders for the satanic flavor to them teenagers who got involved etc. But a really well organized high level group of wealthy people who are basically pedophiles who have kinky sex parties with satanic themes in them. There's no public proof that that stuff exists, so then that just leaves you with it's either false memories or its extremely well guarded and covered up at a very high level those are the only two possibilities. Right and I'm sure there is mix of both somewhere. Probably

44:15 And so from this is a weird one i will admit but for what i understand the goal of these satanic or occult fuel groups and this sort of ritual abuse in that context is often to open up person up. to entity and vocation, that if you torture someone enough some form of dark contact can be made in a sort of possession can take place. What are your thoughts on these occult aspects of mind control or these kind of claims? Well first of all there's a little twist on this which is Martin Orne especially Jolly West

44:52 who are top secret cleared under MKUltra and their projects involved hypnosis, creating dissociative states etc. They were directly linked to George Estabrooks who contracted with the War Department and also corresponded with CIA and described creating mentoring candidates in great detail on contract to the military during the Second World War so these guys Martin Orr and Jolly West were consultants during the Korean war on debriefing these downed pilots who had made quotes false confessions in German warfare. So first of all we have to ask where is it false confessions or real confessions so these guys were the experts on CIA military mind control contracting and programs

45:41 And then they became experts on destructive cults and were hostile to destructive cults, saying they're bad and we need to police them. But they originally obtained their expertise on cult mind control methods from being mind control contractors in the US military and CIA so that's very strange and twisted. Then there are lawsuits back-and-forth where some of the cults are suing Jolly West and the foundation that was created which is the cult awareness network So the cult awareness Network are saying you guys are calls and the cults are saying well, we're just a organization or religion There's a whole side story with many rabbit holes in it following all of that. So It's extremely convoluted twisted history that connects into the Patty Hearst kidnapping JFK assassination all kinds of things

46:36 But you can never really follow it like i said to this hardcore proof but when you go to. Just life in general and people are always trying to control people rent so what's the purpose of advertising its two quotes mind control people get them to buy pepsi instead of coke so how do influence people change their behavior change your preferences change their perceptions have been going on since before ancient China, right? And so a lot of it is not really particularly mysterious. It's just general control methods and like any kind of indoctrination in a non-cult just regular organized religion then you get into cults which can be new age cults, psychotherapy cults, Christian cults all different flavors of cults

47:25 How those people operate and what they do is very well described in large literature. Like if you want somebody to be a suicide bomber in the Middle East, you don't just walk up and say hey how would like blow yourself tomorrow? Right I mean you gotta get hold of them and work on them indoctrinate somehow and that involves often a lot of cultural religious kind of pressures financial rewards for the family, you're going to get your 70 virgins in heaven. And we noticed that most of people blow themselves up are between 15 and 30 there's not too many of the 55 year old male bosses blowing themselves up

48:03 It's all just kind of built on this foundation of what we know about life in general. So then, we get to the more secretive cults that we can't prove exist but they're just slightly elaborated one level up versions of what we do know exists and in the actual documents it describes creating new personality states that can be assigned mission tasks and then the out front person doesn't have any knowledge or memory at all Rationale being with their cotton interrogated. They don't know anything Yeah, so it's not so much I think Getting people to do stuff that wouldn't ordinarily do if you want somebody to go out and kill a bunch of people You just put them through basic training and send them out to a war zone right mm-hmm There's no mysterious mind control required these mind control people they don't do stuff that ordinary soldiers and spies never do

49:00 So I think it's really the amnesia and the resistance to interrogation that has to be the rationale for it. And creating these new identity states that didn't exist before, so then that edges over into okay is this identity state literally a separate person? Well no not really, its really separated off part of the person But if you look at that through a spiritual lens, then this newly created entity can say I'm Beelzebub or I'm so-and-so or I'm so and so. And it's some supernatural being and then the question is do you believe that it's literally a supernatural being? Or do you think there's just an illusion and it's a psychological thing? It's really the same structure in the same sort of technology whether it's just quotes

49:51 So this George Esther Brooks calls it Jones A and Jones B. Jones B is the artificially created venture in candidate identity that goes on a mission if you are in some kind of voodoo cult in Haiti, its gonna be the ancestor spirit so-and-so entered the body but all basically same structure and psychological process. Yeah I mean that makes sense A lot of that is kind of just injected culture or superstition, sensationalism and that forming a different personality is basically the same thing as forming you know. A person thinking they're demon they might as well just think there are no joe the plumber it's like a weird cultural thing and it is harder to get a handle on those weirder aspects but I guess i would ask you know just go down this rabbit hole little bit more

50:44 Contact with some form of consciousness or intelligence is really the front and center. Topic for the psychedelic communities and i've had experiences like that myself you know they don't involve programming it necessarily just the right chemicals and, I've even had some guests suggest that when these government mind control programs started, they did just want to know the best way to break a person down. But eventually they realized they were opening up a Pandora's box of communication with something else and that maybe programs that split off were done to further explore that aspect

51:24 And I guess, I would ask have you seen anything to indicate that could be true or which programs in particular might have explored those threads? Or do you think we can just chalk that up to what you were saying before the cultural overlay of multiple personalities. Well, that's a bunch questions so my answers are yes no and maybe one at a time. So there is good movie which was very funny and entertaining movie Men Who Stare At Goats Yeah Which is based on a book So that's not just fiction. There actually was military intelligence programs to look into, quotes the paranormal and there actually were experiments to see if you could kill a goat using your mind so that's history that actually happened now how good was anybody at actually killing a goat with their mind

52:13 We don't know for a fact, but there were such programs looking into that. And there's a series of programs 84 I think was the first year and the program was called Stargate which has been declassified it remember watching nightline episode with Ted Koppel interviewing Robert Gates who had been ahead of this CIA at the time to guy who is the liaison between the CIA in military and Stargate was run out of Fort Meade. And basically the purpose of Stargate was to recruit people, and the names a bunch of these people are public, some of them have written biographies since long ago. They're connected in with Stanford Research Institute as well. Basically they would go into a room so they would have some training and they would have some psychic ability talent, and they would lie down in kind of a dim room quiet, and either be given specific longitudinal latitude coordinates

53:12 or they would be told there's down playing somewhere in central america we want you to go find it and then they were asked for a projector remote viewing. And they would go to the scene and they will go all their other aircraft that's here pilots are dead, where do i go inside the russian missile base of submarine base and here is the layout what's going on So the Robert Gates was going, I don't think I don't really buy it. And the liaison guy was saying no we actually got usable intelligence that was confirmed by other sources that were used operationally so that's what's being discussed on mainstream network news program. So that definitely existed definitely happened and the budget was $20 million.

54:04 So that's again just to be a great so they must have spent hundreds of millions and why would i keep spending and spending and spending and spending if there is no usable intelligence. Show that kind of edges out into what you hear about but isn't documented which is their studying penetrating other people's dreams, who killed him in their dreams resulting in the person in russia being dead inducing heart attacks, controlling and influencing somebody through their dreams remotely all these things. I mean you can't just go to the encyclopedia and get proof of it right? We know that kind of stuff was looked into no question in the Soviet Union and in United States

54:48 Man fascinating stuff i am just so glad I could get you here to talk about the stuff it's really great to have a real working professional who has the education and training but hasn't been completely indoctrinated to the status quo. You know your rare breed indeed and no problem before I catch a loose do tell people a little bit about the colin ross institute in your books anything else you have going on that they might want to know more about So like I said, you can just search me Colony Ross MD or the Ross Institute. There's another Ross Institute but the Colony Ross Institute for Psychological Trauma rossinst.com and then there are buttons to my other websites and my directivities My company Manitou Communications has all kinds of books that i've published Or you could just go on Amazon to find all my books

55:40 So basically that's the portal you can enter. Right on! Well, very cool again thanks so much I feel like i could do this forever hopefully I can have you back sometime because we just scratched the surface on some of these topics and The rabbit hole goes deep and I appreciate the work you've done man take care yourself out there No thanks for having me look forward to talking with you again You got it, Me too Oh sweet crypto Jesus dear people of the internet there you have it dr. Colin Ross an educated and open-minded fellow I think we ended up with a pretty good expose on mind control mental trauma government programs and all that jazz sounds like an excellent title for a musical if anyone's in the business you can just have that your welcome

56:26 But I just learned about the good doctor's work. In fact, I was talking to Chris Knowles about such things and it was him who recommended that I check into having Colin on as a guest and I'm glad I did! Kudos to Chris for that It was also really the strive to find out more about my mom's brother that sort of pushed me in this direction you heard me asking him about the facility and fault missouri probably hurt me ask jay parker too. Is just one of those weird things that i found out after developing a conspiracy centric podcast no i thought i grew up in midwest america with an ice white picket fence

57:04 Pretty simple midwest life but little did i know beneath the surface the oily appendages of the elite have definitely touched my family. Just one of several personal aspects that has made me a bit more aggressive about certain topics And I try to keep an eye out for references to that facility or electroshock treatments, or scandals. and i haven't found a ton but i have definitely found some here's just a couple of personal stories related to the Fulton Missouri Mental Hospital that i found online One says, my dad was at the Fulton State Hospital for an evaluation before they were sending him to state prison. I was just wondering if there was anyone who might have heard about this in a newspaper or television news because he committed suicide while he was there?

57:54 Another one says, I was working on my family history and found that an ancestor hanged himself at the state hospital in Fulton in 1926. I know it's a long time ago and treatments have changed well...a little bit but it's a sad and shocking thing to uncover. It is indeed! Another person says, I was there in the early 60s and there was a young black boy about 9 or 10 he was in the side room on 6th South we were awakened at about 2am when he had been horsing around and stood at the end of the bed with a blanket tied around his neck, and they claimed he tripped and that it was an accident. Anyway... He did die, and I've thought about it for years. There was a social worker who molested the younger boys and paid them off with cigarettes. I always wondered if he had anything to do with it." Wow those are dark accusations

58:48 A couple more where a person says, I had a relative commit suicide there. She died in 1962. I understand that she used some form of gasoline or other flammable to ignite herself and then one more where they say, I worked there in 2007 and was injured but I can tell you that the quote clients aren't treated anywhere near as well as the hospital claims to treat them. The hospital treats their workers bad enough also So I'm finding a couple things. This place does not sound too fun, and of course this particular hospital is just one of many with an unsavory history it's probably not even in the top 50 but that's an even scarier realization And there's a lot of darkness in that chapter of history and Big Pharma is still making millions and billions selling their zombie pills that came out of that era and that work

59:39 It's so crazy to think that parents used to rush to get their kids pilled up when I was going to school. I like to think that culture has pulled back a little bit, hasn't it? I haven't been plugged into what is happening in grade schools for awhile now except for the whole common core conundrum but i'm pretty sure people have pulled back Anyway this show really was booked right after the Jay Parker episode which caused a lot of mixed feelings but i think jay is a much more credible case and guest than someone like Donald Marshall or for the real OG fans of THC those who have dug through the deepest depths so the archives I think Jays more credible than someone like Francine Kelly right.

1:00:21 So I don't know. There are things that have always been staples of this show, and interviews with people who claim to have been put through these types of traumas has kind of been one of them. And it's great to get the opinions of a doctor who was really right there at ground zero! We talked about Dr. Ross's personal story and drama just a little bit in the Plus show, and anyone who wants to find out more can obviously do a couple searches and find some dirt but that's actually true for most of our guests sometimes there is something to it, sometimes it's just an attack on someone who's going against the grain, and sometimes its a little bit of both Personally, I think if you've been listening to this show for a long time you know that it's almost always about what a person knows or thinks rather than what a person has done. Does that sound bad? Yeah our guests have done some great work but I almost never ask them about personal drama or their negative press or personal matters

1:01:17 I try to build a show around information that is thought-provoking, useful or interesting and you can't do much with an expose on some he said she said stuff. I suppose you can find out about a person's character but if the person is knowledgeable about a subject and willing to share that Their character is kind of of limited importance. Of course, not zero importance I'm not saying that! I did have to turn down a guest once that i had already accepted because of some white supremacist organizational ties and a child porn conviction And you know had it been one or the other maybe we could look the other way but if you're going to go that hard in the paint...I just think I can probably hear about The Aquatic Ape Theory from someone else

1:04:46 And baby if I seem withdrawn, let me say it's cause I just don't wanna go and get whacked Maybe you should know that the trauma affects you like it does everyone It's just a game plan. It's what the world has become They want a pat down and a swap Don't you see what's going on? Well now you know You're better keeping on your own Cause' you can see The masters lie too much Oh baby, you can only trust yourself And if you think the system is out of touch It isn't. You can only trust yourself

1:05:34 I hope you know the elite aren't your friends They'll suck out everything from you in the end And if for some reason, You think i might be wrong. I wonder where you got that opinion from? You gotta keep the curtain strong Cause you don't want anyone thinking you're at home Well you're not! You should tape the mail slot And baby if I seem withdrawn, let me say it's cause' I just don't wanna go and get whacked Maybe you should know that the trauma affects you like it does everyone It's just a game plan. It's what the world has become They want a pat down and a swap Don't you see what's going on? Well now you know

1:06:29 You're better keeping on your own cause you can see The masters lie too much Oh baby, you can only trust yourself And if you think the system's out of touch It is and you can only trust yourself You might think that these problems are small Maybe they aren't registering at all

1:07:20 Now they know you're naive and vulnerable You won't believe all of the stunts that they'll pull Cause' you can see, the masters lie too much Oh baby, you can only trust yourself And if you think the system's out of touch It is and you can only trust yourself Cause' you can see, the masters lie too much Oh baby you can only trust yourself. And if you think the system's out of touch it is and you can only trust yourself