David Paulides | Missing 411: The National Parks Conspiracy, & Bizarre Disappearances Within Them

00:00 Hey Greg, this is Chris. I'm just north of Pittsburgh PA. I just found out about you maybe a month ago...I think i found you on Freeman TV and uh..i think your show's really good Just listened to Saturn Death Call it was awesome Your shows are really fun! I just want let you know that I appreciate what you do New listener and im gonna keep listening man be good bro In the 1930s, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed a nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the Fireside Chats. His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times but we're far from 1930 and I deal with a different kind of fire For a new era of worldly frustration We offer a fresh conversation!

00:51 Here we go our side chatters welcome to THC drinking a little drink smoking a ton of smoke enjoying a sunny day in San Diego I'm Greg Carlwood and today is such an interesting show because typically we explore so many weird topics like UFO abduction secret underground bases classified military experiments child pedophilia rings of the elite All kinds of stuff, and a lot of these subjects imply that some people might go missing sometimes either to be tested on or forced to work at these underground facilities. Or kids taken and traded among the political financial and religious elite. Or maybe some folks might get involved in an unsavory encounter with an Henri cryptid

01:33 There's a lot of weirdness out there, but usually when you get down to the details... ...there is not a ton of names or evidence of victims gone missing for these large-scale conspiracies and encounters. And today is almost a polar opposite show! We have a ton of victims of strange circumstances that have gone missing and some have come back but others don't. Yet we have almost no story or clues as to why they disappeared or what happened to them because a lot of the clues we do have completely defy logic and these could be victims of some of the earlier conspiracies or situations I mentioned, or we could be dealing with a completely new and different phenomenon altogether. One that you could say the National Park Service might even know about it is trying to keep a lid on

02:17 Now when a lot of us think about the perfect getaway from the hectic 9 to 5, many envision a camping trip or hike among the fresh air and beautiful landscapes of sweet mother nature. But after hearing about the work at today's guest that might all change David Paulides has spent 20 years in law enforcement out here in California and holds two degrees from the University of San Francisco and now has three volumes out of his amazing phone book thick series about missing people, Missing 411. It explores what he's come to find is a shockingly vast number of strange disappearances within national parks and other remote areas mainly within the United States in Canada but as the research continues it seems pretty safe to say that these odd commonalities among The Missing extend around the globe

02:59 I've had a hell of a time reading about these cases and i don't think i have ever been more perplexed by topic that included so much data and evidence that something strange is clearly going on, and i can't wait to get down to it. David Mimman welcome to the show Hey, thanks Greg. Appreciate being here Yeah! Thanks so much I mean you've created an amazing archive of missing people and there seems to be a lot of curiosity and interest over the cases that you've gathered because they're so strange but uh...and the sheer numbers are pretty staggering too but i think there's kind of a tendency to see shows like Nancy Grace on TV or hear about these huge famous cases have a kid gone missing that we get every other year or so And I think people are under the impression

03:41 The coverage of those cases that's an indication of the amount of people and children that really go missing, but that's pretty far from the truth. Isn't it man? I mean you filled three books at this point Correct actually we just reached a fourth book a few weeks ago Wow is very, very complex. Without having a view from 50 thousand feet it may look as though it's mundane but when you get into the nitty gritty details of it you start to realize that there really is something here Yeah, and I know you've spent a ton of time in the great outdoors yourself and together with your law enforcement background. These things really put you in a prime position to be the guy who's doing this work because you recognize the strangeness and patterns and most importantly the way that government agencies like the National Park Service are supposed to act

04:31 And they've been very kind of combative with you and withheld some information, sometimes unlawfully along the way as you've tried to gather this data. It's been a kinda strange hasn't it? Well I think it's a strange position for them to take that's for sure there's no doubt about it. I don't get it What are some of the experiences you had along the way trying to get some documentation for cases as you compile these books Well, again we're nobody special than anybody else. We run this organization under a website called the CanAm Missing Project and we just write Freedom of Information Act requests directly to the Park Service just like everybody else and according to the laws in the U.S., we have a right to government documents as long as they're not secret or they don't compromise the welfare of the public

05:25 And one of the first things we requested was a list of missing people from 183 locations that the Park Service manages. To our astonishment, they came back saying that they don't keep track of information on missing people and they don't have any lists of missing people and apparently they don't keep track of missing people! Wow a pretty astonishing statement coming from a group that has one of the largest federal law enforcement contingents in the United States. Their law enforcement officers are all graduates at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Institute, one of the best training centers in the United States and probably the world so they definitely know the political correctness of needing this information and as

06:14 Every law enforcement person that has contacted me says they do not believe the Park Service. They believe they have the information and they're not giving it out. Seems like the one thing that they should be doing! Well, as another Park Service employee told me about a year ago, they know the number of toilet paper rolls they have in the parks. So to say that they don't keep track of everything at a minutia level – that's ridiculous! It's a government agency and they know the importance of keeping this information and just saying they don't have it is ridiculous.

06:55 Yeah, and I mean again you're just finishing the fourth volume of these books and these are not just regular missing people cases. These are cases that have strange commonalities which we will get into some of them but these are the cases where you filter out a lot of the standard reasons people might think that someone would go missing in a national park or out in the wilderness some of The things that seem a little more mundane. These are only the case is it have these weird oddities right? Correct. There's a profile that we came up with after reading couple thousand cases and that profile is the only one that we applies in, the only one that we will do research about so say somebody wants to voluntarily disappear somebody who has mental issues

07:40 drownings, things like that are excluded. Animal attacks they're excluded. Things like that would be the vast bulk of the missing persons cases we don't look into them but after reading many many many cases you start to see certain oddities fall out of the group and again these aren't easily found in a normal person would never find them in a person working on a search and rescue team in a county would never understand this unless you looked at cases, and I'm talking thousands of cases from North primarily North America but there's just small percentage that are falling outside the US as well. In fact in the last year we found it a big association between cases in Australia and cases here in North America and the oddities here have carried over there in the last century as well but yeah

08:38 Yeah, the normal cases that you hear about in the news no we don't work them but if they do fit the profile then we count them. It's so interesting that you're finding this to be a global phenomenon because that just adds another layer of mystery to it. Because, you can't chalk it up to just one group of crazy people in Yosemite who live in the backwoods who kidnap kids You know? You can't chalk it up to one thing in this area or one thing and another or even the whole country It makes you think that there's something going on, that there is something out there that we just don't even know or a force that deals with people and nature that we just don't have any information on. Well and you did bring up Yosemite so that's the largest cluster of missing people in the world that fall into the profile we've established

09:30 Now there are 52 clusters of missing people in North America that we have identified. The Yosemite cluster is huge, it goes back about 120 years and you're right You couldn't say that it's a group of serial killers in North America that are at these different locations, that have gone about killing people because it surpasses the generation. And therein lies one of the mysteries behind why this probably has never been understood or identified in the past. A lot of these disappearances – one may occur uh... let's say in crater lake national park today one more may occur in fourteen years and then one more may occur in sixteen years so three disappearances in one area would establish a cluster but that's more than thirty years and generally law enforcement people don't stay more than twenty five or thirty years on the job so when you look at it in just your career

10:29 Well, two incidences in 30 years you might not think much about but when you have four or five or six in a thirty-year period it's going to raise the interest of everybody in that area and say something strange is going on here. It's just enough not to raise the suspicion on majority of occasions Now I bring up Crater Lake because there's been five or six boys under the age of 14 that have disappeared in or directly around Crater Lake under really, really suspicious circumstances. Definitely! Do you want to tell us about a couple of those cases? Well i'll just briefly say that one boy was with his dad and his grandpa and they were looking for a Christmas tree right on the outskirts apart by the park

11:13 in an area where there was nobody. And they lost track of the boy for a short while, just after the boy disappeared it started snowing and it continued snowing for days. To make a very long story short, a massive search effort went into this, the boy was never found Now, there is a weather phenomenon related and it's part of this profiling that we do. And we can't explain why but in the majority of these circumstances when somebody disappears the weather changes for the worse And sometimes it's rain, sometimes it's fog, sometimes its snow but it deeply hampers the search effort. Now also in Crater Lake there is a boy who had a disability and he had a mental disability his name was Sammy Belkey and his dad went up there on vacation. Sammy ran up on a mound of dirt on a turnout where they stopped

12:12 and he turned and he walked off the mound, the dad ran up to that mound looked into the forest didn't see the boy huge search. The boy was never seen again now therein lies another part of the profile on another higher percentage of these cases is kids or adults with disabilities and we're not talking just mental these can be physical this could be some type of rare diseases that some people never have But these people disappear and sometimes they're never found. And so, people with disabilities is another area that we've started to track in the last three years that has gotten some real interesting results."

12:52 Yeah, that is a weird one. I mean...I'd say probably the cases that interest me the most—the commonalities that seem most mysterious to me would be the ones where young children go missing and are found much further away than a child should be able to travel in the woods alone and this happens time and time again doesn't it? So I'm glad you brought that up because I've given many talks in front of large groups and I always ask the audience, they say how many people in the room have kids? And usually it's about two-thirds. They raise their hand and then I asked them well when you had a 2 year old boy or girl if we put them in the middle of forest and told him to walk out and he didn't know direction to walk out how far would be go before they sat down and gave up or sat down took a nap

13:38 And usually the answers range anywhere from a hundred yards to maybe a mile. Right, and then I ask them all would they walk uphill or downhill? And it's usually 99% say downhill and so I like to ask you Greg since you read a lot of the stories what is a reasonable distance that a two-year old would walk in your opinion after reading Man, I mean I would say at max two miles. Anything beyond that would seem super crazy! Two years old? Think of how young that is...I'd be surprised if they even got a mile. The woods are pretty treacherous like it's kind of tough to climb over logs and over mountains and sometimes across big raging rivers you know it doesn't seem like they could get very far

14:28 That's part of the point that the parents bring up in these discussions. They said well, you know a lot of kids don't start walking till 12 to 16 17 months Now you drop them in the woods with obstacles creaks like you said logs How far would they go especially without an adult there prodding them? Right, that's the scariest thing. That's why I like this little section of stories because it seems like there is some type of assistance you know? It seems like there is some kind of intelligent... Some kind of being that's able to pick up these kids and take them to areas that are miles away that they couldn't do on their own So that's what's so eerie about it but uh..I guess To get into a couple of these cases um Let's talk about

15:16 This case of Tommy Jenkins, this kid was two to three years old in Fort Lewis Washington found two days later. What's his story? So it's an interesting one for the people who don't know Fort Lewis is in the central area of Washington its 33 thousand acres and in 1950 it was a big spot where the US had approximately 6,000 soldiers on site and housed And in the middle of it, there's an area called the American Lake and it is a big lake kind of sitting at the center of the fort. It kind of bisects Highway 5 in that area and its fairly pristine spot. Well on May 4th 1950 Tommy lived in non-commissioned area housing with his mom and dad. They live about 1500 feet from the lake

16:09 Well, during that time span on that day his mom kind of lost sight of him and she knew that Tommy was playing with an Irish setter dog named Lassie that belonged to the next door neighbor. Now stop people there! Here's another part of this profiling is a large percentage of people and kids disappear with a canine. And I can't explain it other than it's fact. We'll talk about that more later, but Tommy disappeared with this canine. He didn't arrive back for lunch and if you have kids you know your kids aren't late for lunch they're hungry kids they come back and they eat well he doesn't come back the mom gets scared calls her husband calls officials The base commander did the right thing he shut down the base and within hours

17:06 he had over a thousand soldiers searching for the boy. Within 36 hours, he stopped everything on the base and he had all 6,000 of the soldiers searching. He had helicopters from the base in the air and planes flying formation around the base. Three different bloodhound teams were used looking for Tommy during this time period So the third day rolls around and a soldier is going through some bush, and he finds Tommy and this dog named Lassie on the beach in perfect condition.

17:48 And they bring him back in and the base commander gives an interview. And in the interview he says, there is no boy this age that could have survived the rain and wind and outdoor conditions we've had for three days. There's no way unless you had some assistance. That kind of shook up the base And the dad kind of took the lead on that and tried to question Tommy, and he couldn't get a coherent answer out of him. He couldn't determine if he was trying to be evasive or his mind was blank or something but the final outcome was Tommy wasn't really good condition for a boy being out supposedly in the wild for three days. The other part is

18:38 is how in the heck did 6,000 soldiers three helicopters multiple planes miss a boy and a dog? Right. Yeah, that is such an interesting case. I mean apparently it got to 40 degree weather and like you said raining like... And the kid was- It seemed like he was taken inside for two and a half three days and then brought back out Like he just walked right out into the yard to play with this dog But I guess the only real thing that he said that was kind of interesting is He slept in an area with no homes and that he fell into a creek He said he fell into a creek but he showed up dry

19:17 Just so weird and again this one case if you read it on its own You could roll it through your mind and say, you know what? Maybe he found some shelter. Maybe some people housed him maybe there there was a crime that occurred here where Some pervert or something took him But that's one case of, you know, hundreds and hundreds approaching 2,000 now that we've identified. That doesn't make any sense. And another thing we should point out about the numbers that you're gathering is a lot of this in terms of documentation there are issues with classification if someone is presumed dead because of the elements or they've been missing long enough they're no longer in missing people files. That's kind of an issue for you when you go back into some of these isn't it?

20:08 Well, and that is a big big issue. And that's part of the National Parks Department of Interior and U.S. Department of Agriculture that manages a lot of this land That's part of a classification they came up with to eliminate these people from public record meaning say somebody disappears in a national forest and it's snowing, blah blah blah. They go 16 months without finding them then they get a classification called missing presumed dead meaning they're deceased meaning they are no longer missing meaning that you're not going to find them on any databases as an example the National Institute of Justice has a program that they instituted about four years ago where they are trying to get DNA

20:57 on every missing person case in the United States because there's coroner offices throughout the US and these rural areas, many in Oregon and Washington and California where they have bones that they can't identify. There was no national database where they could go to them and say hey did somebody disappear in a hundred mile radius of here? Now they can go to this National Institute of Justice site and they can query it, and they get this information. In the last 14 months we've supplied them at their request with 12 cases that they had never heard before about missing people

21:40 that we had gotten the documentation and the reports on. Many of them came out of Oregon and Washington where they have this classification or the Sheriff's Office, or the police department lost the report and just threw away the case by accident. We got the documentation back. We went back to them. They revived the report. to confirm that the person's still missing. The Department of Justice now has this information, or the National Institute of Justice now has this information so I like to say that our work is done some good in this long-term process of trying to identify people

22:19 Yeah, yeah. That's definitely noteworthy And on the subject of Oregon Let's talk about these two cases that are kind of connected when we're talking about kids that are traveling distances They shouldn't be able to these cases are 30 years apart but only 19 miles by distance and that would be Cody she high I think and Keith Parkins Cody Sheehy and Keith Parkins, yeah both of them strange cases but in April 1986 Cody Sheehy cracked at 6 years old.

22:55 He was in an area near Willowa, Oregon. It's about 26 miles from the Washington border and the Blue Mountains in the far eastern sector of the state. He went on a picnic with his family and he and his sister were playing this game called Explorers where they kind of split up and they hide and stay hidden for a little while. Anyhow as it was happening at about 1230 that afternoon, their mom couldn't find Cody Well, the mom and dad and sister searched until 2.30pm and they then called law enforcement. Within a couple of hours – this is quick for this part of the country – they had two helicopters in the air with FLIR forward looking infrared radar

23:38 A dozen searchers were on site within an hour. That first night, searchers got up to almost 75. They're walking on the ground, they're yelling for their boy, they're calling his name blah blah blah... They are not getting any responses The helicopters with the flare in there aren't seeing anything on the ground At 730 AM the following morning Cody arrives at a house on the outskirts of this nearest town and This house was 18 miles from where he was camping with his family on this picnic And he walked up, and he asked for some help and The people wisely grabbed him and said hey you know we'll get to help for you law enforcement was called these identified

24:27 Well, he made some real fascinating statements. He told his parents and law enforcement that he hid from a helicopter that night and the interesting part was there were no helicopters up at night and they don't fly at night because of safety reasons. And he also said he hid from coyotes at night and that puzzled people because they were out at night on foot and didn't hear or see any coyotes He was found to be in excellent condition and it goes back to that statement you said earlier Greg where this boy at six years old went 18 miles in about 14 hours. Right, unbelievable! It's too weird and then Keith Parkins was actually 30 years earlier than that but just 19 miles away something very similar right?

25:25 Correct, he was visiting his grandparents' ranch. He was walking around the ranch and he was only two years old when he disappeared. There's a giant search and people are coming out of the woodwork to help. This location is 90 miles southwest of Willowa in the general area so-to speak. And this was in April 1952. And the following morning, 19 hours later after he disappears two mountain ranges several barbed wire fences several creeks Two search and rescue people and his dad are in a dry creek bed 12 miles away. And they find the boy face down in this dry creek bed alive but barely.

26:20 Now, they said his pants were torn to shreds and he was suffering hypothermia etc. Now when we read this – and there were three of us that read this – we said wow that's a phenomenal story but almost simultaneously the cops in us come out and they say Well, wait a minute. This two-year old boy has gone for 19 hours! There isn't a search and rescue person in the world that would tell a dad and other workers to go look at a creek 12 miles away? That's ridiculous!" So our question to ourselves – we threw this around a lot – is why were they there?

27:02 What did they know or why did they suspect that would be a reasonable place to even search? Yeah, I'd have the same question. It's very odd and not only are there a lot of cases where these kids are found many many miles away but also sometimes in mountainous areas they're found miles up which seems even tougher for a kid under 10 years old one of my favorites I thought, it's hard to say favorites but the one of the ones i thought was most intriguing was Kenneth Edwards five years old in Rosemont California you remember that one?

27:43 Oh yeah. Now, you know the issue is that with these cases as you know because you've looked at them is there's – there are a series of disappearances that all kind of look the same after awhile and that's the baffling part I mean this kids that disappear In your mind, you don't think well They're not really going to be found You know five miles away and uphill and so search-and-rescue may not throw a lot of resources at it But in Kenneth's case again two years old April 4th 1964 about 2 p.m He's in an area near Rosamond California 5 miles north of LA right near the Los Angeles National Forest

28:32 His family took a trip and they got into this area, and somehow or another Kenneth got away from them. Well the parents called the CHP, California Highway Patrol National Guard, Kern County Sheriffs, multiple multiple bloodhound teams come into the area and initially they started to question the parents because the dogs aren't finding any scent And this is another part of the profiling, is that dogs on these cases 99.9% of the time can't find a scent. So the Sheriff's Office moved their perimeter meaning they're searching from 2 to 5 miles out and they're yelling for the boy, they are not hearing anything, they aren't hearing a boy, they aren't getting anything so a Native American tracker came in and didn't find any tracks for the boy

29:24 And then about two miles from the original camp, they find his jacket and a sweatshirt which they thought was strange because it was really pretty cold outside. And then later on, they find him lying on a ridgetop on a cliff seven miles from where he originally disappeared and 1,000 yards from the sheriff's command post which they had moved. Now he is found face down which is unusually an unusual way to find somebody but a common way that people that we've identified are found

30:05 Now, the original story was that he was chasing a rabbit and got away from his parents. Well there's multiple issues about this that don't make sense. First of all how could the boy outrun his parents for just chasing a rabbit? How could he get seven miles away at two years old and how can you find him on top of a cliff? Right. Yeah, the climbing is just it's one of those elements that it adds even another layer of mystery It's just like it seems like they're being assisted by something or we're just not giving enough credit to these two-year olds you know I think that if you have kids I Think a parent is probably the best judge about the strength and the ability other child And I haven't heard too many say that that could happen yeah

30:53 And there was another kid, Larry Lewis who is pretty young also in California. And my note here that I took says he was found several miles up from where he disappeared you remember that one? That's a weird, that's even more unusual case in that he was at kind of the foothills of the Sierra, the south fork of the Mokilumni River in Calaveras County. June 9th 1945 years old about 10am. His family went up there for trout fishing trip. His dad took a couple of the sons up the river and as they were coming back down, Larry disappeared. Now it's a pretty good sized river so I think initially the thought was maybe he went into the river but the US Forest Service in Calaveras County Sheriff's Office did a pretty good job in rounding up 100 searchers to comb the area and they worked hard at 4pm the following day

31:54 They found that Larry had traveled through his 24 hours, he climbed in excess up and down 11000 feet and 3 miles. And he was found sleeping in a thicket Now I'll stop the people here now and I know you notice Greg but in these books In each story, there's at least one or multiple notes about where this information came from and the articles and the author et cetera. So if there is ever any question now about the veracity of what I'm saying in here you can always go back and check and see that this is exactly what was said. Many times we get to search-and-rescue reports are directly straight law enforcement reports

32:48 It's phenomenal to hear these things and you think, oh this is just an isolated case. But that's what makes the books interesting is that these aren't isolated cases. Another commonality we mentioned with Kenneth Edwards is he took off some of his clothes, he took off his coat and that seems to happen a lot which is as a really weird thing. And that would link us to the Corey Kelly case not a kid 38 years old but definitely had an issue with the clothing right? Now Corey Kelly's case, that's pretty weird to say the least but I've actually been into that area of Minnesota and you won't believe the facts of it when you hear it. And after you go into the area your going to think this doesn't make any sense

33:38 It's the Red Lake Wilderness in far northern Minnesota. October 16, 2006. Cory was 38 years old and he had been to this area many times. He knew it well. Him and one of his best friends named Jim Neprude and Jim's Labrador dog I went to the area to go hunting. And as the men were setting up camp, Jim realized that they needed some gas for their stoves and so Corey said he was going to wait with a dog while Jim went into town and Corey was going to take the dog and we're gonna do some grouse hunting

34:17 So Jim left, Jim comes back in an hour and a half. And Cory's gone! It was about 7 o'clock at night so Jim sets up the car honks the horn flicks the lights he is not getting any response from Cory or the dog And he calls, you find some people that are in another adjoining camp that were leaving tells him to call for law enforcement. They bring in massive amount of troops from the Beltrami County Sheriff's and state troopers and there is a massive search for two weeks. Now if you stop for second think how far can Corey Kelly get in an hour-and-a-half?

35:02 And how far would he really want to go in an hour and a half knowing his buddy's going to be back, and they're gonna make dinner? So all the indications are that this was going to be just a short you know maybe go out a couple hundred yards with the dog and look around. If you see a grouse great if not come on back let's make dinner but that's not what happened and the dog didn't respond to all the barks, all the yells and things that Nephrit was giving for his dog which was strange so On October 25th, 9 days after Corey disappears some searchers were nine miles away and they find the lab wandering in the woods.

35:45 And it's dehydrated and hungry. Now one thing about being dehydrated that didn't make any sense to the searchers, and doesn't make any sense to me is that there is more water in this area of the Red Lake Wilderness than you can imagine. It's a very swampy boggy area where there's no way a dog should ever be dehydrated And hungry, I suppose that could be true if it hadn't had anything to eat. But they took the dog to a vet and they took a sample from its stomach and found that it had been eating deer. That puzzled them so they keep searching and then a day later they find Corey's cigarettes in a lighter

36:34 A key point here, Cory was a known hunter. He carried an adequate supply of clothes and things to keep warm it wasn't that cold and he had a lighter that if you wanted to start a fire he could start it but But the cigarettes and a lighter were on the ground, and that caused a lot of concern. The following day 14 miles from the campsite, a tracker found his overalls, socks, and hooded sweatshirt. When you read the cases in these books, something starts to come out at you. And that is that in many of these instances people are missing shoes or clothing or both.

37:24 And I know a lot of people say, well hypothermia sets in and you start stripping clothes. But there was no reason for hypothermia to set in because Corey had the ability to start fire and he was dressed real warm and He had the dog with him to keep him warm Right! Even if even if you did have to take off your clothes for some reason wouldn't you go keep track of them? You know... I would think And many of the stories that I write about, these people's clothes are found in close proximity to where they disappeared even before hypothermia could ever have set in. Many of the small kids who find that they stripped their clothes, the parents say they didn't even know how to take their clothes off! Right yeah at that young age it's

38:14 Even even weirder. I mean you've been looking at this for a lot longer than I have of course and I can't think of any but have you ever gotten a rational response as to why? People would be missing their clothing outside of I guess hypothermia Well, it's called paradoxical undressing and it's paradoxical because they can't figure it out right and So, I think there's a little more to this than everyone kind of understands in that it is a convenient answer to a very complex scenario. And as you'll see so about October 30th about 14 days after the search started snow is falling they hamper the search and again dogs canines coming into the field they can't pick up a scent and

39:08 And so this goes off and on for another two weeks, and finally the efforts to find Corey are terminated on November 23rd. On April 28th, snow starts to melt. Things start to come open again and the sheriff gets in a helicopter and they start flying the area around where they found his clothes And in some real high reeds about 15 feet off of a nearby trail They find Corey laying nearly naked In the reeds So

39:46 Does it make sense to anybody what happened to Corey Kelly? No. And the sheriff made a statement that he thought that Corey must have died that first night, and he has no reason why he made that statement—he has no justification—and Corey's mother was interviewed and she said I don't believe my son even could have made it 14 miles through the woods to where he was found in that first night." And better question is, why Woody? Right. It doesn't make logical sense and I just think taking off shoes...I mean that is just the worst idea if you're outside your feet are very sensitive you can't travel without shoes it's this seems like of all the things you'd want to keep if you weren't well equipped to be out there is your shoes

40:40 So, as I've told this before and our group has talked about this at length. What's the one thing about shoes that may be different about everything else we wear on our body? And I always ask people to think about this. And the one thing we've come up with, and we're not saying this is a reason or it's not but the one thing about shoes that's different than everything else we wear is it's probably the one place on our body that has the most bacteria. And I don't know what it means, but that is the one thing that's different. Yeah! That's interesting because I've also thought about that because for a while I was listening to your interviews and you would bring up these feet that were washing up in Nova Scotia. I think something like over a dozen or couple of dozen feet in shoes have washed up on the coast and I would think the same thing.

41:38 different about shoes and why are there feet in shoes and no bodies? And my thought process then was that the creatures of the sea maybe are eating the bodies but the, the shoes are too tough because of the rubber. The shoes are a little harder to get through I don't know but yeah it doesn't make sense in either case No, and the weird part about those British Columbia's I think eight or ten cases now in British Columbia And I only know of one case where they've been able to identify who whose foot it was So I think that a perplexing scenario that they can't even though they have good DNA They can't seem to identify these people makes you wonder where they came from or what happened. Yeah yeah It's such a weird thing and

42:28 Another case that was super interesting of a kid had gone missing, you know We've talked about several these people are so far from where they're supposed to be You think that it'd be something assisted but you never get any kind of indication that might be the case But there is one story where there is a slight inclination that there might have been Something intelligent involved moving something and now would be Dennis Martin's case. Now, Dennis' case is the longest case I've ever written about in any book. And it's something that – one of the only cases that I have ever proactively sought out the parents and probably the hardest case I have ever sat down to write because it hurt me to write it

43:17 But June 14th, 1964 Great Smoky Mountain National Park. Dennis was six years old he's with his dad and his grandpa and his brother they're spending a Father's Day outing at a location called Spence Field. Spence Field sits up about 1500 feet from the lower elevations of the park it's a very serene area you got to walk into it you can't drive to it The family hiked in, the four men. And they set up in this kind of grassy area and the two boys were playing as grandpa and dad were sitting there watching them.

43:59 And there's a lot of really, really strange things that happen with this case that nobody could ever explain and the odds would be phenomenal. But as they're in the middle of this wilderness setting on these, in this meadow another family comes up to the Martins and asks them if their boys and their family could play with the Martin boys? Mr. Martin stood up, shook their hand and goes hey my name is so-and-so Martin and this family turned around said oh wow our last names the Martins as well! Now what would be those odds you know? You think about that that's pretty strange

44:40 Through the Spence Field area runs the Appalachian Trail. And during the years I've written a lot about the Appalachian Trail and the unusual things that have happened along it, and there's many strange things but through Great Smoky Mountain National Park in this area of the trail runs So the family sit down and they start, the boys start playing a game of hide-and-seek. And Mr. Martin tells me that he's sitting in the chair and watches Dennis go up to this bush right on the edge of the wilderness at the end of this meadow. And Dennis hides behind the bush because I'm looking at it from about 50 60 feet away. He says everybody comes out from playing hide-and-seek and Dennis doesn't come out

45:28 So he says, I call the name and then I start walking over to the bush. And I get behind the bush and Dennis isn't there! He goes something in my gut told me something really bad happened. The Appalachian Trail is right next where Dennis was and Mr Martin took off using excellent shape. He took off running for two miles down the Appalachian Trail as everyone else is looking for the boy And he comes back and nobody can find him. So the grandpa takes a quick scroll down the mountain to get help as everyone continues to look for Dennis. Now simultaneously, as this is going on, a family from outside of the area drives into Great Smoky Mountain National Park and goes up to a ranger and asks them where they can go so they could see bears?

46:19 And the ranger says, hey you go to this area right outside of Cades Cove called Rowan's Creek and there is a lot of wildlife there. You should be able to see something. Family says okay. So family parks their car and they start walking up this valley. I've been in the valley. It is pretty thick, pretty rugged. Beautiful. And this is another unusual coincidence, the last name of this family is the Key family K-E-Y and astonishingly in the opinion of many this is the key point of this case As the family is walking up Rowan's Creek, their 12-year old son says wow dad look at that and he points up a hill that is in front of them. He says I think I see a bear! At about this time the family hears this scream.

47:15 described as earth shattering, the loudest scream they've ever heard in their life. And they look up the hill and they see this thing hiding behind trees apparently trying to avoid detection by the family and the dad says well son I don't think that's a bear i think that's a man! This thing continues to dodge the trees but people get a pretty good look at it Eventually, they lose sight of it and they go back to their car. Now at 830 that night the disappearance of Dennis happened at 430. At 830 that night the rain starts to fall and it falls hard at a rate by midnight there was two-and-a-half inches of rain in the park and it continued to rain like that for the next seven days

48:07 Now, there was a huge response from the US Air Force National Park Service local jurisdictions etc. Now Dwight McCarter eventually was the head tracker for the National Park Service in Great Smoky Mountain National Park and he wrote a book about tracking and he's been interviewed a couple of times about this case And we actually went out and interviewed him. He's retired now, and he has a great memory because I'll never forget this. He said that I was one of the liaisons between Mr. Martin in the National Park Service. So I get back to Dwight but as the search is going on helicopters are flying in and out and two big helicopters come into the park filled with Green Beret Special Forces

48:59 Now, there's rumors out there that they were training nearby and just happened to stop by. The reality of it is I have a file probably four inches thick from the National Park Service on this and nobody that I could ever determine called them. Nobody asked them to come into the search. Nobody gave permission to land in the park but they showed up and McCarter told me that that when they came in, they set up their own camp away from everyone else with their own communication systems and when the National Park Service says well why don't we put three of your guys with one of our guys since we know the area and it could be more efficient searching. They said no, we'll search by ourselves very strange according to McCarter but nobody had ever done that before

49:49 So at the maximum point there were almost 1400 searchers inside the park looking for Dennis. And the FBI sent an agent to quote unquote monitor the case, but they didn't suspect that a crime had occurred but he was going to monitor the case So the day after Dennis disappears on the front of the Knoxville Times is a picture of Dennis Martin about this disappearance. The Key family reads it and says, wow! You know, times are kind of close I wonder if what we saw on the mountain had something to do with Dennis's disappearance since it was almost directly below where he disappeared? Right

50:31 So the FBI sends an agent and a ranger to contact the Key family, and the Key family says hey we'll meet you at the park. We'll show you the point where we saw this And you could kind of see their distances and things The FBI says no will meet you at your house or somewhere in between but don't come to the park Which is wrong Because as an investigator you want to see the distances and see if they could see what they claim to see And so it seemed odd. And Mr. Morton had an agreement with the FBI and the Park Service that any leads that they had on this case, that they would immediately come to him and tell him he never left the park He stayed in the park for six weeks non-stop helping looking kind of be in his eyes and ears. He's an architect! He is a very smart man I think he did the right thing by staying there monitoring the situation

51:30 But to make a long story short, that key family observation wasn't told to him by the FBI or the Park Service. A reporter happened to hear about it from another source went out and interviewed the key family came back and told Mr. Martin that hey, the FBI has already interviewed this family and you oughta get on this. This sounds like an interesting lead So Mr. Martin confronts him and he gets told a series of lies, he gets told that the time frames couldn't work, he gets told that it wasn't a substantiated sighting etc., etc., etc.. And he gets mad so he get's ahold of McCarter and says hey Dwight they're saying that times don't match up blah blah blah and McCarter says well I think they do He says let you and me just move at quick pace but lets see if we can do it

52:25 The following day they do it and they do it within a time frame that the Key family saw what they saw. This makes Mr Martin even more mad, that their outright lying to him now So he gets a hold of me actually gets an opportunity talk to the Key family and he...the irritation gets worse Make a long story short, the Park Service doesn't tell them the truth. They're evasive with their answers He gets the feeling that he's never told the truth from the beginning He told me he had the feeling that somebody was pulling strings at the upper end of National Park Service and that the superintendent was merely a mouthpiece That was his words

53:11 So if this was your son, can you imagine how irate you'd be at this point? Right of course. So after two months everything starts to wind down they really there's rumors that there was a shoe print found somewhere they didn't really find anything worth a darn and From what I read on this, and after interviewing McCarter. McCarter's beliefs were that Dennis was abducted even though there is nothing anywhere that says that this was a possibility he was there at the time, he knew the distances, he knew the facts and that was his opinion So i said well Mr Martin hasn't talked to the press since the day this happened supposedly because even the press lied to him

54:01 So myself and another investigator, without a phone call or anything just went up and knocked at his door. And he came to the door, recognized him and I explained who I was. He said, I've devoted months to the case so probably know more about it than anyone other than your family and I'd like to talk to you. And he says, you know? The disappearance has ruined my life and my wife's life. It's been a compelling issue for all of us we can't get over the fact that we lost our son and decided years back just put it to rest and not talk about it. I said, hey, I came here from California. Can you give me just 15 minutes of your time because they have some really important questions to ask? He opened the door and came outside on the front porch and says Dave you got it what do you want?

54:47 So he confirmed everything I just said. But in addition, whenever I'm interviewing a witness on a case like this, I always ask them a series of questions at the end that I need clarity about and things maybe that I didn't understand. And one of the things I asked is what do I need to know about this that wasn't in the press? That wasn't talked about in the media but has been a compelling issue to you you." Mr. Martin says, well Dave he goes, you know that thing they saw on the hill? I said yeah and he says there was never anything in the paper, never anything in the media but that key family told everyone whatever they saw had something on its shoulder and he says they wouldn't put that into paper, they wouldn't talk about it in public but they would tell me

55:43 Man, that is such a fascinating case with so many details. It is super sad and if I'm not mistaken wasn't there another detail about an FBI agent that was investigating a lot of disappearing people in that area? Yeah there was When I started to look into this case, there were several others in the general region that disappeared. But in addition to Dennis there were also two other people that disappeared inside that park after him under suspicious circumstances and all of these cases in the park and around the park it was the same FBI agent sent by the bureau to quote unquote monitor the case

56:31 Now, when an agent is sent to monitor a case every day he writes a series of notes that get sent to Virginia to the profiling center where other agents look at it and they try to find matching cases in other areas that are similar. And similarly what I'm doing on these cases This agent did this in all of the cases. And after a while, whatever agent is writing it will get responses from headquarters about you know this matches this, this matches that blah blah blah. Well in my conversations with Mr Martin I said okay so yeah the key family

57:14 saw this that I said, wow. That's pretty impressive." He says yeah he says Dave I know you also wrote about these other cases in the area and he said you specifically mentioned this FBI agent? And i said yeah. He says do you know that that FBI agent committed suicide? I probably had a deer-in-the-headlights look at looking at him. He said no that's true And after we left, we did confirm that that agent did commit suicide. Wow! It's like this case of all cases is the one that makes me think they know more about what's happening and they're covering something up

57:54 And the answer that I've heard you give in the past for why this might be is just they don't want to lose park revenue because it is such a huge thing for their states and everyone wants just the nice cuddly image of Smokey the Bear. They don't want to think about anything else dangerous out there One of the things in the latest book that I wrote about is, I got pretty lucky. I was at a national park maybe it's a year and half two years ago now with another investigator and we were listening to a group of rangers talk in a small shed at this national park. I just stood in the doorway and listened, and there were couple of guys in plain clothes that were also chiming in older guys. And I could tell this one guy really knew a lot and he was either retired ranger or something but I followed him out into the parking lot introduced myself and we ended up having this lengthy lengthy conversation

58:52 And he was a retired special agent from the National Park Service. What that is, law enforcement rangers do that first contact on a victim or suspect in the field and the special agents inside the park service are the follow-up entity they're like detectives who do long term investigative work This guy was a retired special agent for the park service I explained to him the type of work we'd been doing and the results we had, and the responses. He looked me in the eye after I said why would the National Park Service take this position? And quote him directly he said Dave it's a complete lack of integrity.

59:37 A family is at its lowest possible point and they look to law enforcement, and they look to the government for support. And they get lies and evasiveness. Can you imagine what that would do as a person? At that lowest point in your life! Right I mean we deal with a lot of issues on this show involved distrusting government agencies but man to think that she would have trusted the government the whole time and then when you really need them, you really need them. You never thought you would and there's just... you face these kind of roadblocks just to get information about your own relatives it's very sad

1:00:17 it's completely debilitating. I mean, uh... i talked to Mr Martin about it and i don't know how he didn't go completely crazy on the park service for what they did to him. And he told me today this is the reason why i don't trust the press and i don't trust the government. He said they lied to me, they were evasive. The only guy that was even Slight he goes was honest to me. It was Dwight McCarter He said he tried to help me understand But but even he couldn't understand why they didn't think at the beginning that this wasn't an abduction and handle it appropriately And on a subject of that thing that the key family saw I mean any speculation on what that was? I mean, did it seem like a person or I mean she described it as a bear Of course everyone knows that the most famous cryptid is Sasquatch. I mean

1:01:09 It just seems very weird, but that's the only thing that it kind of seems to allude to. This was a time when the Rangers were not armed in national parks. And he said, a Ranger was working alone in the back area of Great Smoky Mountain National Park and he was attacked by what McCarter described as a wild man meaning a guy living off the grid like you and me that lived off animals that wore furs

1:01:48 didn't have any ethics. And he said that this wild person attacked the ranger and almost killed him, and he said you know because the only thing I could think of is that this family saw one of these wild men that lives in the parks but the park service doesn't want to acknowledge lives there Maybe took Dennis, but he says it'd be conjecture at this point. But he goes I don't know what else to think of it Yeah that's so interesting and weird and on another radio show I heard you talking about this case And you had alluded to or you just you just kind of mentioned in passing that there was a remote viewer report That was fairly interesting and I was pretty intrigued by that Do you have any details on what that remote viewer saw?

1:02:35 Actually, it wasn't a remote viewer. It was a psychic gotcha he had written in the Park Service and supplied a report that was in this massive amount of documents and This guy had some apparent notoriety for the time And said that his mind had a difficult time going to where it was going because it was such a dark place Wow any you thought it was a there was a creek nearby that possibly was a cave, but what was happening to Dennis was beyond the realm of his comprehension. It was along those kind of lines very bad very dark kinda almost horrific scenario he didn't go into much more detail than that and

1:03:30 I think it's interesting because we have a couple of guys that live in that area, that know that park like the back of their hand. And I can tell you that we have done extensive research and we can't find an area where there is cave access and a creek running through it because we've made some big efforts to find it. And, you know I talk about a lot of paranormal concepts on this show. They come up all the time and sometimes I wonder if there aren't some strange electromagnetic effects on the planet that we don't understand similar to how planes fly into the Bermuda Triangle and are covered in this electric fog and are suddenly

1:04:13 just disappeared and it seems like some of these people just do disappear from the scene as if they walked through some type of portal or gateway, as weird as that sounds. I've heard that theory before from probably hundreds of people. The issue i have with it is that, It's a very underlined and rare event when more than one person disappears like this And you'd think if that was the scenario we would be losing more than one person at a time or there would be witnesses to that other person disappearing Right...and that IS true

1:04:53 Yeah, well I mean another thought. I had is we cover a ton of conspiracies You know alien abductions Bigfoot and other cryptids child pedophilia rings of the Vatican and political elite all sorts of conspiracies and mysteries that Insinuate missing people but a lot of times they don't have names or anyone who's actually gone missing for these things? I wonder if some of these events aren't connected with these types of crimes in these types of things that people talk about happening So I can only look at it from a common sense and factual viewpoint, and that is many of these have occurred pretty deep in the wilderness where there's not a lot going on. And the idea that there is human abduction process taking place...I know a lot of friends

1:05:45 that are backpackers that carry guns and If somebody's going to try it, you know there's gonna be there's gonna be some shooting going on And You never hear about that. And what I've explained on other shows is Whatever is happening here is a hundred percent effective because if they weren't We would hear about a mistake or we would hear about an attempt and we don't hear about that. Right, yeah it's a serious shame I mean this should be one of the most important things it involves people dying and we don't know why isn't that national security? You know everyone is worried about terrorism globally well here are people going missing right in our own backyard and we don't know what's going on and we don't know who to blame you'd think they dedicate a little bit resources for that

1:06:37 Well, you'd hope I don't think it's gonna happen. Right? Right well David this has been awesome It's about that time we called in it's been a fascinating show Thanks so much for being here I mean several listeners have requested that you come on and you're the only one doing this So III'm very appreciative But before we go would you like to tell the people a little bit about your website where to get the books and maybe what your plans are For the future with this stuff So you can go to our website, it's www.canammissing.com and all four books Missing 411 is the title of all four books are available on this site You can also read about cases that are occurring as we speak under current events section at the site We try to keep it updated with things that are relevant and fit the profile

1:07:25 I don't know if there will be another book anytime in the near future, but we are looking into some other venues to get this message out. We are going to continue the work and the only way that work continues is through the support of people out there buying books so it's people like you Greg that help us get the word out and have read the work and understand that this is a credible issue that needs some attention So I appreciate that. Oh, absolutely man Thank you for that and III would recommend them to anyone I read the third one and I've heard many cases from the first two and just hearing now That you've got a fourth one. I'm super excited to dig into that It's it's super interesting stuff and far different from a lot of the things that are similar in this realm of fringe topics that I get into so I Appreciate it and the families. I'm sure appreciate what you're doing too but

1:08:17 Thanks again, you know keep doing it. Be careful out there man You're digging up a lot of stuff that some powerful people seem to want to stay hidden so make sure you take care yourself I appreciate it, Greg. And i'll try. All right man have a good one! Thank you sir You got it there we have it people man i love love love this show Dave is so good at giving the details of these cases and It's really an unsolved mystery and something fresh for conspiracy fans although that sounds a bit morbid And it was a lot more work than normal to comb through and pull out specific cases that had enough links to present them as not just isolated incidents. So in the first hour, the commonality I latched onto was young kids disappearing and being found many miles away...and Jesus how creepy is that? Then for the second hour, the main commonality I tried to focus on was people who survived

1:09:10 that mention strange things about their missing time. Meeting dog men and robots, and grandma's clone or hiding from the people? Really weird! And if you only heard the first half and liked it please consider supporting me with just $5 a month and I'll support you with a longer episode I could really use some more signups, it is a pretty crucial point. But thanks to everyone who has! We're only on the second show of PLUS so to support it this early really does mean a lot and there were some other cool things that came out in the second hour today too like the Bermuda Triangle connection and David's breakdown of the percentage found alive vs dead or never found

1:09:51 And, you know I'm really stuck in a bit of a rough place because i want to just give the show to everyone but also need to bring him money and their response has been super understanding and positive. But if you folks have told me they'll never listen again or I've sold out which is kind of unfair because I think I've done a lot of free work and it is my passion I don't really mind but when it is getting in the way of Life's necessities, I gotta do something. And we're still doing the money bomb on the last show of every month you know five shows a month The last one will be a money bomb winner So for people to just be like give me free shit forever or fuck off that really sours my hope for humanity on a grand scale

1:10:37 Yet, some other people are pissed that the first hour is now just a commercial for the second hour. I don't want it to be like that either! I think these first hours can be appreciated on their own but i have to inform the people about what's in the second hour. I have to remind listeners this second hour exists and I'm trying to survive on it and its available but we're in transition and I'm kinda smoothing out the edges as we go But the core of the show which has great interviews has and will always remain intact as long as there is weirdness and corruption in the world, and people who support my adventure in investigating it. And if you really... I almost regret saying this but if you really don't think that you can afford $5 a month email me and maybe we can talk

1:11:22 Also, keep sending your music in people. I've got great plans to create the podcast music archive that helps both the artists and the independent podcasters out there and i think it's going to be a great fusion so keep sending me that stuff So I can build it up go to other podcasters ask them to do the same for their audience create a big archive that all these producers have access to And then independent Musicians can start hearing their tracks all over the goddamn net. It could be really cool, but that's it for me this week I've done my part your move wild men of the deep dark redwoods and beyond your fucking move The higher side cats where it's happening You need to know from corruption to closure To crack some conspiracy Higher side cat