David Paulides | Missing 411: The Hunted & Other Mysterious Disappearances

00:00 Embrace yourself, because you're about to dive into another free first hour episode of the Higher Side Chats. And we just want to let you know that whether your looking for a companion through your paranoid insomnia, entertaining yourself through one of life's mundane activities or trying to ward off the internal screams from all those sad smothered souls around the office THC is here and you should know that every episode of the higher side chats has an entire second hour for plus members Sign up at thehiresitechatsplus.com and you'll get years of Plus Show archives, lifetime forum access, a special invite to Greg Carlwood's monthly joint sessions MP3s of THC music bonus episodes tour videos and 10% off t-shirts grinders and whatever else ends up in The HireSite Store It's $8 a month that you won't miss so become a plus member and treat yourself in these troubled times always action packed and commercial free

00:51 Which means you'll unfortunately never hear my voice again. 1930s President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed the nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the fireside chats His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times From 1930 and I deal with a different kind of fire For a new era of worldly frustration we offer a- I'm Greg Carlwood These are The Hireside Chats

01:29 Well folks, I hope you're strapped in because it's going to be another wild ride. From sunny San Diego, I'm Greg Carlwood and i'm sure most of us have been around long enough to realize there are a lot of forces in the world we can't control some we can't identify and even a few we can't seem to simply detect Add in the fact that society has brought us to be little more than cogs in the big machine, content to spend 8 hours a day on mundane tasks if it means a little green paper and some entertaining screens to sit behind for the other 16. And its safe to say we've lost our self-sufficiency and with it our ability to navigate or even just survive in the natural world...and thats when its acting normal!

02:11 Well, when one of us does break off from the herd here in the Great American Terrarium... ...the worst place they can end up is as one of the many mysterious cases of missing people lost to the wilderness covered in one of the books or films of today's returning guest David Paulides. We had David here to talk about his missing 411 work back in 2014 when it was really just getting started, and now the cases he's chronicled are totaling over 1200 spanning 59 clusters 8 massive books and now two films as well. For the uninitiated, David is an avid outdoorsman who has spent over 20 years in law enforcement and senior executive positions in the technology sector. And he's also the director of the Can-Am Missing Project

02:56 Many moons ago, David received information from National Park Rangers that led him to dig deeper into missing people in national parks only to find out that many people seem to disappear under very strange circumstances that often hit many of the odd profile points he's gathered over the years of research. Add in the fact that the National Park System doesn't seem to keep a list of missing people, at least that they're willing to share or talk about. They're very uncooperative with David's research and they act damn near adversarial in a lot of instances and this only fuels the mystery Yes, in fact I think it's safe to say that at this point David's missing 411 work has become so popular it basically created its own sub-genre of paranormal conversations and the speculative search for answers has run the gamut from Bigfoot kidnappings and alien abductions to Native American curses secret government projects and portal places.

03:50 Today we're going to talk about some of the cases covered in the new film Missing 411 The Hunted, as well as some from his latest book Missing 411 Law Land Air and Water. And if we do our job right you'll be as puzzled as you are paranoid! So without further ado, the great disappearance detective and the father of missing 411 David my man welcome back to The Higher Side Hey Greg thanks for having me always fun to talk to ya Ah, thanks man. Yes this is a real treat! I'm sure every host in the game is thrilled when they get to have you on because this work is so unique You're a disciplined researcher and the case studies are amazing Of course your work started in national parks mainly in North America but also across most of the English-speaking world And has since expanded a bit to include other wilderness areas

04:39 With about 59 or 60 identified clusters now, maybe to get started here you can elaborate for us about how the work has changed or expanded since our first conversation five years ago. Is Yosemite National Park still the largest cluster of missing people anywhere in the world? You know, Greg it is. When we first started out got a tip from two national park rangers that they had experienced the series of missing people in their various parks that they'd worked at and there was something unusual about it because they couldn't find documents that they were looking for afterwards and they said that there was a lot of hype and a lot of support for the first 7 to 10 days and then after the search was over there was nothing

05:24 And they thought that where these people were missing was unusual. Not all of the missing go away deep in the backcountry, sometimes it's a public area or semi-public area in the heart of the park and it doesn't make any sense. So with that we started off and we focused mainly on national parks and we filed a series of Freedom of Information Act requests against National Park Service. They stated that they didn't have any lists of missing people And we went through their National Park Police Department, which are highly trained men and women that are very good at their job. But for some reason they didn't want to admit that they had any lists and talking to many investigative journalists they said they're lying. They've got a list. They've gotta have a list your listeners could go into any medium small police department in the US and ask the chief of police for a list of missing people in their jurisdiction and not cheap would have a list on his desk in an hour

06:19 And after that, we went through and started to look at national parks really closely because we wanted to understand why they weren't giving up the list. We just did a deep dive into archives and after almost nine years now of research Yosemite finally came out with a list of missing people only after I had written about all of them or addressed in an interview. So that was not a mystery, but no other national park or monument has So, routinely get asked how many people are missing in national parks and monuments? And I have no idea. It'd be a complete guess and in my line of work once you guess it or prove wrong your credibility is lost so I don't guess on a lot of things like I try to keep my comments strictly factual

07:09 And that's how we slowly evolved from national parks to National Forest Bureau of Land Management, federally owned land and even some private land now. And after you look at hundreds of cases certain things start to become apparent But then after you look at thousands of cases, things start to pop out at you. And when I was a police officer...I worked few task forces where we were looking at robbery suspects and rapists and we'd have a big bulletin board on the office wall, and we would put pins in the wall where these people hit. And we tried to map out where they would go next

07:51 And I took that and put it into this research, and said you know i remember a lot of people being missing from Yosemite. And there were a lot of people missing from Rainier. And I said im gonna get a big US map and start putting pins in just like I did as a cop. Eventually after several years these clusters of these geographical clusters of missing people started to become apparent now not everybody who goes missing in the wild I'm interested in. I'm sorry for him, but I'm not interested." Go through a vetting process that vetting process includes there's no mental health issues with the victim, there's no suicide etc., There is no evidence of criminal involvement meaning there's no crime also there's no evidence that the person say was assisted in some way in disappearing

08:46 Other things that we vet out are predation cases, meaning persons killed by a mountain lion, black bear, brown bear etc. Any evidence of any of that found by search and rescue, we won't look at it. And after looking at thousands of cases there's certain what we call profile points that have come out that are pretty apparent and if the case doesn't match those profile points then we won't look at it so The profile points I've outlined in the book, the most popular ones are they bring canines to the scene. Canines can't pick up a track or they can't find a scent. Sometimes they walk in a circle and lay down. They bring in professional trackers that can't find tracks leaving the scene and there's a weather event sometimes with the disappearance. Sometimes just as the person is disappearing or just as search-and-rescue starts to work the case

09:41 They have a weather event of snow rain when something that inhibits the searches and thats kind of the ten thousand foot overall profile. Yes those are two of the most intriguing profile points and a great introduction or reintroduction for people you are so respected for that discipline to stick to just the facts you leave the crazy speculation host like me and that's what i think people like about ya. It is kinda crazy some other profile points, Victims are often found in areas that were previously searched sometimes missing clothes or shoes when they are found alive they have a. Lack of memory of where they've been,

10:29 Another one that's weird is geographically a lot of these are found near rivers creeks or ponds or boulders and granite and people might say what else is out in the wild you know you might as well say they go missing near trees but that is pretty significant right. We think so. And the granite part of it is Yosemite, and there's the most granite you'll find anywhere in the world is there? That was part of it. Then when I say proximity to water, I'm talking about close proximity Sometimes to the point of being ridiculous, and I wrote a book called Missing 411 A Sobering Coincidence which has to do with people that are found directly in water. And you think well that's a drowning case, you know that's pretty obvious but when you read the book it's not so obvious and coroners and medical examiners have contacted me and said yeah something strange is coming on because we can't find a cause of death on most of these people and that is not normal.

11:31 i remember when we talk before the great majority of cases was largely about children back then and a lot of these children were not found alive if they where they couldn't really say much about what happened i think there was one girl who mentioned that she met us strange bear creature but in these last five years, When you examine cases where people are found alive is this loss of memory still a huge factor have you gotten any kind of clues to the mystery from people who have survived their own disappearances. You know i'm learning long ago that we want proactively ninety nine point nine percent time go out and try to talk to a victim,

12:12 And when you school or new research arena. You are a fool if you don't contact people that are already there and understand where the landmines are at. So that's what i did i went out to talk to couple missing persons groups in this as well the number one thing to remember is that these people traumatized many of them don't want to talk about it and many of them don't wanna talk about it for years, So if you're gonna go out and proactively reach out to them, and then write about their story later on they may feel re-victimized and be angry at you. I haven't done that. And there are just a very few instances where I felt like had to do it and did it worked out okay? So usually get my facts from the periphery from other police officers search rescue coordinators

13:00 reports that they've written and i clean the facts off of those sometimes even the news get some things right. But as i stated many books articles about missing people are about fifty to seventy five percent incorrect when you look at it can you get down into it, people these days a lot reporters aren't making a big effort to get their fax right unfortunately Yes i understand the hesitancy to talk to the victims themselves the research is important but you also want to do no harm. And as i mentioned our last conversation we focused on the odd cases that involve mainly children under about ten years old who seem to go missing almost in a blink of an eye when their parents turn their heads for just a minute,

13:43 and are found oftentimes days later and miles and miles from where they went missing sometimes i took off their shoes, sometimes the body alive or dead showed up on a previously searched path. And the whole thing from the distance travel to the resistance from the park services was very suspicious and these child cases also seemed to be the subject matter of that first film right That's correct. And a lot of people didn't understand why we did that It's pretty easy when you get down to the bare bones first of all if you're not apparent sometimes it's difficult To understand and appreciate the angles, we took in this movie

14:25 And in that first one, there were a lot of kids that I had written about where they had walked a phenomenal distance in the woods. Sometimes again it's hard to grasp the importance of this if you don't have kids and you don't know hey my kid could never do that or my kid couldn't walk 3000 feet up off the side of a mountain at three or four years old So the importance to that is, the parents out there when you watch the movie and said this isn't happening. This isn't normal and that was a point of it. Yes I really really enjoyed that first film and again into the second film this newest one Missing 411 The Hunted and also material that's in your more recent books you focused a bit more on hunters that go missing which is interesting for different reasons. The kids of course shouldn't be able to get as far as they do

15:15 And these situations are mysterious because of their helplessness, but hunters these cases are mysterious because of their familiarity with the woods and resourcefulness. Exactly and a lot of people don't think about this but i'll throw it out there is that almost all of the hunters I'd say 75% of ones have written about our arms in when you're armed with a rifle or pistol that's excellent device to signal for help And hunters are trained that when you go missing, sit down fire off three rounds in fairly rapid succession. Wait an hour fire off three more rounds. That'll tell you the friends that are looking for you where you're at and how they can hone in on you. So it's a device that most people hiking don't have but it's one of the reasons I tell people when they go into the woods hiking to carry a firearm. Now the opposite end of that are archery hunters

16:13 And they disappear at a higher incidence per capita than armed hunters, which is unusual. Now I also tell archery men and women to carry a pistol with them when they're out there as well but the archery people and the firearms people many of these men and women have hunted the same areas for decades some of them own their own hunting camps and yet even though they know this area like you know your backyard they disappear And the weird thing is, they disappear and nothing's found. And I mean there are no firearms found, there is nothing found and that makes no sense because an animal isn't going to drag away a gun." Now the people that initially have that knee-jerk reaction will say their mind will go some place to make it right. Okay well maybe they fell down broke their leg and died.

17:07 then one of the canines, sometimes dozens that are brought to the scene should have been able to track that person right to the place they went down. Other people will say well you know they got attacked by a mountain lion or bear and they died and they got drug away. Well again once you've seen a predation scene...and you can go on Google in Yahoo! And you could put in bear attack mountain lion attack and you could see what those scenes look like They're gruesome, easy to find There's clothing that's torn up there blood everywhere i mean you cannot miss it now the search and rescue coordinators are all trained on how to find these things. Now hunter who is out there who's a predator themselves looking for game,

17:52 They're out there because, number one they usually know the area very well. They've practiced their sport many times in the past. Sometimes they've hunted the area hundreds of times. They are carrying a weapon so that they were formidable opponent. Now how can these people just disappear and never be found? And people think well yeah you know maybe that happens once in awhile but in my book Missing 411 Hunters It happened hundreds of times. Yes great point that hunters are gonna have way more supplies than children they're gonna be way more equipped so when no traces found that's even stranger and never a shot fired in the vast majority of these cases so they definitely don't see,

18:40 Whatever this problem is coming they don't even fire shots off to signal their lost there are some. Cases in the film that it doesn't even seem like the person realize they were lost because of some of the strange details as you said i dont drop a gun or anything, The stuff around the gun i mean the more i sat with it the weirder it was what is that say to you that these missing people hundreds of cases don't even fire off a shot that they're hunting partners in the nearby area would even hear so in the movie. We highlighted a case where the person was a hunter safety instructor for decades, and then he had his firearm. He was in very close proximity to other hunters and something that most hunters do carry is a walkie-talkie to communicate with their partners

19:33 Well, the walkie-talkies never used. The rifles are never found. They're never heard going off." So when you put that in a cumulative arena, you scratch your head and say, well did the person wanna disappear? No based on his family life, his history and law enforcement saying no way so what could have happened that would've wiped out any evidence that he was even there? And there's a couple of cases where these people are in their 70s or 80s the most experienced of the hunters but not the most physically fit.

20:08 And it's pretty clear to everyone they go hunting with their friends and family they are moving far maybe this is someone that decided to stay back and hold the campsite down while everyone else goes out, i come back to the campsite in that person missing which is the strangest because. Everybody was on the same page that there not going anywhere and a physically can't get very far and thats just very puzzling And, you know that's part of why those cases are in there is to make you think well if somebody was really mobile then maybe they could walk out at the mountains. But these people no their friends knew them and said no the person is not going far that's it's a reason we were hunting in the way we were. We sat down a group of people and we were pushing the deer towards them and those guys wouldn't get up they were just gonna stand up on fire.

21:01 Yes it's hard to wrap your mind around fully what could possibly happen to these people and there is one case i believe its in a wilderness area of new york. That was really intriguing to me because it hits all the major mysterious bullet points but someone who was in the party did hear something and that is a rare insight into some possibilities right, The way that story goes is a series of old hunters, like they're all between say 70 and 80 years old. Maybe a little north of 80, a couple of them and their sons and their relatives were going to walk a mile two miles out and push the deer towards them. And these guys there were a series of them who were about 50 yards apart sitting down waiting for the deer to come their way. These guys have all been together for 50 years. They're best friends. They own

21:59 And during that time, during an interview with one of these guys I accidentally asked him well did you hear anything strange out there? He goes yeah i did. And I thought wow okay because he looked disturbed when he said it and I said well what did you hear? And he goes you know I just can't explain it I've never heard it before. I said well did you tell law enforcement? He says yeah but they didn't really take me seriously I said, so you've never heard this before? Nope. And they said so how can you describe it and later on he kind of said it was a clank or a clang kinda sound. It was instant, it was fast and it was while they were sitting down waiting for the deer to get pushed towards them. He says in 55 years of hunting and being in the woods, I've never heard anything like it. Well then you couple that with well 50-55 years in the woods, he's never lost a hunting partner either

23:00 Now it wasn't directly in the region that is buddy was sitting but it would still a sound heard, in conjunction with the time he and his partner waiting for the deer to get pushed towards them. I've never had anything like that told me before and you could tell this man was really disturbed by it. And its just another one of those cases where It seems like law enforcement or maybe the further up the chain you go some of these are clues are either dismissed or maybe they're not letting on everything they know and i believe this is one of those cases where. The FBI was involved and it really isn't their jurisdiction if im not mistaken right,

23:45 So, back when I was digging through cases in 1950s and 1960s 1970s. I started to see the FBI showing up on cases where they shouldn't really be interested now the FBI has protocol that they can participate in a search of a missing child young child but the FBI does not does not search or participate in searches on missing adults they investigate criminal activity that's what the FBI Now, when they started to show up on these adult cases all of a sudden made me start thinking okay. They're looking at something I'm looking at and they can't figure it out either that's why they're showing up now nobody on that New York case could figure out why the FBI was there or who called them but two agents show up way up in the middle of the woods and just say that they're gonna monitor the case

24:41 Now, as someone who's worked with the FBI before these people are the best at documentation. And these two agents went up there and I'm sure wrote one heck of a report that went to the FBI profiling section those profilers look at it and they try to find similar cases kind of like what i'm doing that fit the mold of what they researched in what they wrote about and tried to match it together Now, when I spoke to one of the search and rescue commanders there on film he said that FBI has never been on a search. I've been on before and i have no idea who called them or why they were there. He thought maybe they brought some resources with him to help but because I didn't know what they were because I can't even tell you why they were there now The other part on this that is really odd

25:29 Is that New York area, the upper northern New York region has a lot of wildlife. And when we were out there filming we thought it was odd that we didn't see any wildlife and when I asked the search and rescue commander if Wally was searching if he had found or seen or any of his people had come across any wildlife at all? He goes no and that was odd. We said we didn't see any squirrels, we didn't see deer, we didn't see bear, we didn't And these guys had hunted that general upper New York area many times, and this was state land they were on. Yet nothing was seen. I think that's weird."

26:08 That's very weird and it kinda jives with some paranormal experiences we've heard about from witnesses where they say it does get quiet before they encounter a cryptid or weird orbs in the sky and also kind of jobs with that. profile point that dogs can't find the sand or they won't find this and we can communicate with the dogs to find out why things are going differently but perhaps there just like i'm not going there, what i think that all fits animals are very intuitive and i guess they know something is going on here. They obviously have the ability to pick up a cent hundred sometimes thousands of times better than us

26:53 So if there was one there, either it didn't want to track for some reason or it couldn't pick it up. But in almost all of the cases 99.8% of the cases I write about canines cannot pick up a scent, trackers brought and can't pick up a track and in this case in New York that's exactly what happened. Wow so as i mentioned in the intro there is so much speculation as to what's happening bigfoot alien secret government projects natural portal places on the planet, have you gotten any closer to an answer and last few years of you kind of circle around a possibility that maybe you had five years ago. I think all those things you brought up are things that people have written me about and yeah

27:43 And I hear about it all the time. I don't think that there's an easy answer, and i doubt that there is one answer It may be a multitude of things. I did this two hour special on the history channel at the beginning of this year you can watch it on amazon right now called Vanished. In in that production company sent me to Wisconsin To interview a physicist We sat down we had a great talk The one thing they came out of it was I told him that there were times when people were on the trail, specifically parents. And they said yeah my child was in front of me i saw them the whole time then they kind of got out of my view for just a few seconds and they were gone and you hear that so many times that it came to me that it was almost something appeared to be waiting for the time

28:44 the target wasn't in the eyes of the witnesses, and then all of a sudden it was gone. And this physicist said...and I asked him, I said well we were talking about portals specifically, can portals be targeted? He kind of smiled and he goes Dave you know there's a group of physicists in the world that are studying this topic right now to see if it could be used in that manner almost to militarize And he says i can guarantee a hundred percent there are things that might be used in different words that are portals but you said no, can it be targeted we're thinking it must be able to be because nobody that we know about.

29:29 that has come forward and said yeah we're walking down the street in new york city, and we see an opening happen in front of us and our friend walking on the sidewalk twenty feet in front of us disappear you don't care about that happening. But do you have these strange disappearances when people are out of view so the portal idea was an interesting one, they gave it to him this guy gave a scientific validation Yeah that is fascinating because as we mentioned that one guy did hear at strange noise that sounded like something mechanical steel trap closing perhaps something in that realm maybe thats the sound of a portal gunner something but i was thinking about the portal places hypothesis and it's interesting but,

30:19 The government would have to have known where these were if they were natural and then develop them international parks away from the cities on purpose but i guess in the case of them being able to be targeted it's possible that some kind of military experimentation or fine tuning up their technology or maybe its not there technology. Well, and I'll just stay in the science realm for a second. There's a couple of videos that were made by some companies that show their stealth technology. I've seen it in almost a blanket type of format where you pick up a blanket and it appears as though it's directly like the area around it so you can't tell if something is picked up but whatever is behind that you can't see

31:10 So, there is some stealth technology going on right now that is phenomenally good. You could wrap somebody in something and take them away. The issue with that is that obviously the person would scream, there'd be drag marks unless there's the technology that you could just remove them from the area quickly using this stealthy type thing. Again that's something that out there right now that somebody had brought up to me a few years ago and i said well it's interesting yeah you really have to zap them in an instant and it have to remove everything that they're touching regardless of its material type because otherwise they drop their gun they dropped their hat you'd see what if it was something really violent but again is just not fair

32:04 And then probably one of the other things i get a lot of and talk about it because this came out at the first movie people pretty obvious what's happening to these kids is that they're getting picked up by giant bird, and they're getting flown away that way there's no tracks in there's no set but you forgetting something. Kids are disappearing and sometimes extremely close proximity to the parents If a giant bird picked up a child and their talons went into that child strong enough that it could lift it off the ground, that would be a huge wound in that kid would be screaming their heads off. And when the child was eventually found those wounds would be evident in the kit and none of those things ever happen.

32:49 And the second film is called the hunted i'm sure that as a catchy way to insinuate that these are all hunter cases also kind of implies that you think something is. Getting them to some degree i mean is that right well all movies and my book start with missing for one one and then whatever the name so missing four one hundred, It was a take off of the movies about hunters but who's really the hunted in the movie you know that the hunters going after the deer. Is it the hunter is going after the bear or the elk or are they to hunt it.

33:29 And the other thing that's odd about the prospect of it being a military operation or there being some kind of advanced. Hunter that out there in the woods waiting to pick people off on the edges is just, How much space this covers i mean sixty clusters you gone all across the english speaking world. It's hard to say it's a government project because the coordination between all these different countries that wouldn't really be there, add can't be just something in your simity because this is happening all over the place i guess if it was something hunting them it would be something that has no problem getting around the planet and its just leaves above us

34:15 Well, I think the people who are just listening for the first time probably think well you know this must be an issue for the last 50 years. But since i've started to write the books I found identical disappearances that match our profile points going back hundreds of years so no this isn't a local issue and this is not a recent just a recent issue about two weeks ago I got an email from a woman who lost her husband in France hiking And it's an exact profile match. Now, I never heard about this case and again it may be a language issue maybe search-and-rescue doesn't get the publicity somebody goes lost in the mountains no big deal and it doesn't get to worldwide publicity that does but this woman had contacted me i'd never have known about her husband. I'm sure that happens a lot at this point right? It does

35:06 So another thing i like about your work is how you break down the terrain and the landscape of some of these cluster areas because those are important details, add in the film it's translated even better than in the text because your showing images or show on maps and you can really see exactly where these people go missing. And In the film you say that the santa fe cluster is one of the most intriguing i'm curious why is that particular cluster intriguing to what stands out about it so santa fe new mexico. That cluster intrigues me because there's been a variety of ages and males in females but have gone missing their number one,

35:57 A lot of times it's just all males or it's just all females. This one has a little of both, also the topography in that area and the weather in that area intrigues me a lot because you've got super hot weather down into the valley and then you've got temperatures that are quite a bit lower up by Santa Fe Ski Resort and higher in the mountains and you've got elk, deer. You've got a really diverse area with diverse disappearances but when you get down into the bottom of it and you start looking at the types of disappearances, the ages, the sexes... Wow! There's a lot of continuity there that people don't know about

36:40 Now, New Mexico is unusual because the New Mexico State Police is kind of the head organization in all search and rescue which is not normally the case in most states. And because New Mexico has a mandatory disclosure law which most states do not you can get documents out of New Mexico where you can't get them out of other states and including documents you also get crime scene photos and a lot of other things. And because of that we've learned a lot out of New Mexico cases Yeah in the film you cover several disappearances in this area at least three, what i hold on was one where a body was found near destroyed camp naked face down and a creek or their faces in the creek just very i mean this is another one of those situations where.

37:33 Why did this person make a camp was it their camp? Why weren't they also signaling for help if they decided oh, I can't get back to where I was. I need to make a little shelter for the night or start a fire you would think they would also be screaming for help but just strange It's very strange. And in that case, we had the crime scene photos and the coroner writes a report that well the woman wasn't in any body of water and her face was never proven to be in anybody or water. I have the crime scene photos right in front of me and she was completely in water and her face was in the water. So I'm not sure how they could even write some other things they do but

38:18 Why was this person naked? Why was the clothes thrown around? Why was the camp in shambles? Why didn't she call for help? How did she disappear?" All of those things don't make any sense. Right and when you see the actual photo in the film it's definitely eerie and we're not talking about. Drowning types of water what time is a few inches of water just the whole thing makes no sense in a lot of times when these cases are talked about here critics say oh well this is hypothermia when people hit hypothermia they do have this, add habit of removing their clothes n

38:59 Sure that might be in the mix somewhere but it definitely doesn't explain why people are not found at all why the clothes and some cases especially boots or shoes are set very neatly on the path. I mean a person who would be distressed in a hypothermic state they're not looking to make things neat and tidy they should be freaking out all over the place but i don't think that. Really answers much of the questions but you do probably fold in this hypothermia element to some degree right yeah this is hyperthermia theory

39:35 About missing people is interesting to me. I hear about it all the time and i have a few questions about it, and that is that if people strip themselves naked when they have hypothermia? I want people to think about this clearly then why don't we find naked climbers at high altitude when they're dead and they died by hyperthermia right I don't know a whole lot about it but if that's the case of they are founded high altitude you think that be where they found the most often, yeah i make it is a weird one. I do love getting into the details of these cases but people really should see the phone cuz you can get all those details in the interviews that we can fit into a conversation and when you hear from the witnesses or investigators first hand it really makes a big difference and

40:30 There was one case in the film where i believe you're talking to the sheriff and he's clearly rattled by the whole thing but he is walking through point-by-point on a map here's where. We saw him last years where he was supposed to be going and this is one of those cases where there is gps data that shows where he was aware his GPS was at least, But this is such a wild case and it is one of the ones that makes me think about that aspect of, this person didn't seem to think there was anything wrong even though there's a panic search for them. Well their cases are now they want some GPS but the weather a lot there was one gps signal that was received when he was talking on his radio to his partner another case where they had a radio any spoke to him briefly and then you stop using the radio

41:25 This guy disappeared in some heavy mountains and reported missing. And you're right, the sheriff is absolutely perplexed." A guy who has 25 plus years in search and rescue... And we put him in a helicopter with us when he flew the route this guy supposedly took. He said several times, this doesn't make any sense. There were multiple counties looking for this hunter He was missing his boots during the search they found his boots next to a creek again water and get to a point where they eventually found this body.

42:02 it would be a phenomenal hike for you or me in good weather. But it had snowed about 24 inches and the search parties come in one direction, he supposedly was going the other direction towards them yet they never found any tracks going out on the snow that's clue number one. Canines never pick up by any scent around that campsite, that was number two. Number three didn't have his boots So he had to have hiked out in bare feet through a shale boulder outcropping that would've torn up anybody's feet. And it's a six air mile walk, so nobody walks six air miles so you probably walked 12 miles and then nobody can find him even though they find his backpack and they found some other things of his in that area

42:53 In the backpack, they found some food, some water, a firearm, a pistol that was loaded. He never used it and then months and months later they found his remains somewhat near the backpack but not real close and they could never determine the cause of death. They could never determine how he made that trip. They never could determine why didn't use the walkie-talkie or as firearm to signal for help That case perplexed so many people. This body was found just on the outskirts of a giant ranch in these mountains, and the people who owned the ranch were absolutely completely perplexed. They could not figure out what happened or why this person acted that way they did nothing. It was bizarre

43:39 And you mentioned they found his remains if i'm not mistaken didn't find everything i think they found his skull under a tree of pelvis bone partially buried somewhere else never found, is he because u asked the question about the boots and that's just crazy i mean he was dismantled somehow. It's hard to say what happened and they couldn't give an adequate explanation what happened to his body but, when i asked if they found any socks or shoes or you know anything to suggest that maybe he got there on his own and they said no we didn't even find any feet.

44:16 Can you mention that backpack it was set against a tree with his wallet ID snacks and it is gone. It was like very neatly laid out but in this is the case that is really just my favorite that I just digested over and over, they during the search did find a cup and open energy drink like sitting out on a stump where someone would just kinda take a rest period And from that area you can clearly see the buildings below you can see civilization so if your there and your lost you don't have a hard time navigating back to where you were in that's one of those mysterious details like did this person even realize there was a problem.

45:03 And the weirdest part about that is what's your on your last five ounces of energy and you just didn't have the ability to climb down that hill. You got your pistol right there fire off a few rounds in those ranchers are gonna know nobody should be in that area let's go see what's going on man, another thing that was slipped in their without much context is that information from his cell phone was just not recoverable No no they tried and i could not get anything out of it. And that kind of brings me to another thing i love about your work is interview a lot of people who, compile paranormal and mysterious cases and sometimes were talking hundred years ago sometimes we're looking back at the nineteen twenties and thirties and you think well this is interesting but

45:56 Whatever got them if you think of it as a living thing is probably also dead now these things are so far back in the past it's really hard to. get the full context to explain is there actually a mystery here but your cases i mean they do go back away is that you're also nailing all these cases, that have happened in just the last twenty years and very technological world and people have cell phones and gps. Add it just makes these experience what's been going missing even more strange do you get a lot of electromagnetic behavior with technological devices in this more recent cases

46:35 You know, it's strange that I don't look for it. But when you follow the technology path and you understand what it can give you from an investigator's viewpoint, you have to go down that road. And if there was any easy answer...I probably wouldn't even be presenting the case because they would've found the guy or there would have been any easy answer as to what happened But it's those cases where you go down the technology path and there are no answers or there is no data and there is no answer for no data in. There's no reason why the guy wouldn't use his radio phone whatever was just scratch your head what is going on right it kinda possibly leads back to the,

47:19 portal idea of some kind of electromagnetic anomaly or maybe some kind of field that creates a space of electromagnetic anomaly and devices break in. Biological beings just disappear from that space i can't explain how something or someone would be able to control another person's cell phone if you're hunting them it's just out of this world well you know One of the stories we covered in the recent movie dealt with a cell phone, and it dealt with a female hunter who had a strange encounter in the woods. And a lot of people who haven't even seen the movie but just have watched the trailers have misinterpreted this to mean were pointing to some kind of cause. The reality is in the movie, we talked about whether we should put in any of these strange things that hunters have encountered in

48:17 And we thought, you know what? We know of two cases where there's scientific validation that something really, really odd happened to these people. And in that case this woman took a picture and her phone took a photo that according to Verizon the phone could not have taken that photo but according to Verizon that phone did take that photo because of the size of the pixelation and The type of photo it took they guaranteed. The photo was taken by that phone But according to their engineers, the software and the hardware could not have taken that photo So that explanation people probably scratching their heads but facts are facts something really really odd happened this hunter took a photo of something very odd and

49:08 Verizon validated it and said yeah, I took the photo we can explain it right right that is one of my favorite parts the film glad you brought that up because the dimensions of the photograph that were taken do not match dimensions at the phone can take. And of course the photos all warped and you can't really see a lot in it you can see a little bit but it looks almost like old cameras how if u wound them incorrectly could take a photo that was like half on two different cells, it looks like its kinda two photos smashed together this just kind of blurry image but.

49:47 that metadata is just so telling and there's no explanation for it except that is verifiable proof of something very strange that can affect our technology. Exactly, Greg. And again that's one of those cases where there was scientific evidence that's why we put it in there and we wanted to include in this movie some of the odd things that hunters had faced in the woods and trust me I've heard hundreds of things and some of them are unbelievable But the two cases we put in the movie, there was some type of scientific evidence that proved that these hunters had encountered what they claimed in those woods. Again not pointing to what might've taken people just showing the type of oddity that hunters have encountered

50:36 Yes, and the last thing from the film I wanted to ask you about before making some room for cases in your law book is the Sierra camp. You cover some disappearances near it and they are as interesting as any but this is also not far from Yosemite which is worth noting but there was a secluded camp for hunters that a small group of guys have been using since the seventies and they had a handful of strange experiences including some thing nearby making very unsettling sounds which they had captured your after year, add that alone is worth the five dollar rental just to hear these sounds yourself but as you mentioned.

51:23 You might not even included these weird clues that hunters had experience and i'm so glad you did cuz thats not the only weird thing that happened around this camp is it. No and if you think back actually the camp was occupied since mid nineteen fifties but these incidents started to happen in late sixties early seventies, add one of the hundred said hey you know what im gonna bring up a recorder and this is really nineteen seventy two way before digital And he took some really interesting recordings. And he said, you know I want somebody to tell me what this is? So he took it to a university and he took it to an audio professor and they ran it against things that they knew already existed in made sounds and then they ran it against humans. And they said no its not human, its outside the realm of what humans could produce and its nothing known animal wise

52:21 And they said that it hadn't been re-recorded, it hadn't been recorded over. And the reason that's important is that in the tape you can hear multiple sounds almost simultaneously one stepping on another and the professor said no these weren't re recordings these weren't laid on top of each other to make this sound or to make double sounds this was actually as it occurred Again if it happened now it wouldn't have meant. Hardly anything because digital you can reproduce and do anything but this was done in the early seventies way before, anything audio wise that advance could be done and thats where it holds its credibility and thats why i wasn't film. And really is worth the price of admission just to hear that you got here with your own years these

53:13 things somewhere nearby are making calls and as you say the people who were recording or kind of mimicking that sound of calling back in so, the person who's analyzing this can clearly tell there someone near someone far this is a human voice this is something outside of the octave range of human beings. I just thought another curious thing because im always thinking about what do the authorities know Apparently they found this camp in two thousand fourteen and forced them to take it down and dismantle it and so. Now that location can be kind of talked about because it isn't this secret oasis for hunters that was but that's curious i mean i guess the authorities are gonna do that but, i mean i wonder what they know about that area good question

54:05 I think they just got mad that they had this structure that they made out of logs in the middle of the woods. It was in the middle of nowhere, we rode almost a full day on horseback to get to this location there's no trails to it unless you knew exactly where it is your not finding it and were there for a week and didn't really encounter anything odd one of the film guys video guys heard something strange in the middle of the night. We didn't, but other than that we just sat around and heard the stories and did some filming and did a lot of trekking around that area." And as very unusual side note, someone who's been in the woods hundreds of maybe thousands of times everyone at that site for the week we were there did not see one animal

54:58 Again again with the animals and as we're starting to wrap this thing up i guess i would ask do you have any advice with all you know for people who are spending some time in the wilderness any tips for not finding ourselves in one of your books. So one commonality and i haven't found that yet it makes us i'm not read about it and that is that nobody has disappeared carrying a firearm and personal locator beacon, I have two cases where somebody disappeared carrying a personal locator beacon. That is, you can buy those on Amazon for about 200 bucks. You activate it and it sends a message to a satellite. Satellite sends the message to the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration says there's distress. They send their search-and-rescue team and they can find you within 10 feet of that activation

55:51 I have told everybody that hikes needs to carry this. Why? Because if you're hiking off trail and you break your leg, there is the chance we will never find you. And so with a personal locator beacon, we will find you every time if you don't move." So carrying a gun and a personal locator beacon is a combination...I can't explain why no one's ever disappeared but I haven't seen it Always, always tell somebody where you're hiking and when you're gonna be out. Contact that person when you're out. Check the weather before you go hiking. Always carry a hard copy map and a trail satellite map if you can. Always carry a couple energy bars and a couple of bottles of water. And the last thing is this costs like five or six bucks if you go to REI or an outdoor store... An emergency blanket weighs about a pound,

56:46 Very light, it's bright orange. If you get stranded in the woods if you hit bad weather you can huddle up with this thing keep your warm and it's an excellent thing to wave if you're ever lost because it's so bright orange But in the movie, Missing 411 The Hunted we bring in some hunters and we talk about these safety aspects. And I think that's one of the best parts of the movie that I wish everybody would watch and really heed what said because I think it's important and that's one angle in the movie that we wanted to make clear that we wanted to push. Right now that movie Missing 411 Hunted is available for rent at iTunes Amazon almost every place online

57:25 If you go to our website, the CanAm Missing Projects. C-A-N as in Nancy A-M as in Mary. Can Am like Canadian American project You can buy even a DVD and read about all of our books and purchase our books online there Do not buy the books on Amazon! They'll get ripped off. Amazon wants three or four times what we'll charge for the book. Alright...and the authors get ripped off as well? On Amazon Yes sir And just in terms of having these things it does seem like whatever is grabbing people has an ability to scan them or know what they have and that's so creepy because, there hitting people with a hundred percent accuracy at seems there no cases of. I got grabs then my beacon went off and then they found me and here i am and we caught the predator it's like

58:16 They seem to know what we have on us they seem to be able to identify the technologies that people are carrying with them and thats just a really creepy thing. Very creepy i wish i understood it more but i don't, you know maybe if we talk in another six nine months i'll have more information every book every story every disappearance i read about i learned something So you're getting the most current information out of me right now. I love it, i love it! And in terms of taking the work further since these cases have spanned almost the entire english-speaking world and missing 411 has gotten so popular are there any attempts to cross the language barrier and see if the vast landscapes of Russia or China or the jungles of Vietnam have these same disappearances?

59:09 You know, my guess is they do. And there have been some people that were bilingual that have sent me translated documents... That door is starting to open." Yes i would love to see that because i do think sometimes our language and cultural barriers can keep our data sets tight into what were familiar with and this seems to be. As far as we can tell what the english speaking world on every continent so you gotta assume it's in their world is well and maybe maybe there will be some added insights

59:45 You don't sell but i do think you're correct i think it's much more widespread than we understand. I'm just curious what's next for your other plans on expanding beyond books and film yeah it's a, it's a big task right now just answering emails phone calls etc about these missing cases And people have said, oh you know why don't you do this or why don't you do that? I am spread so thin right now it's hard to explain for people to understand. I know that there are people out there who don't want to read books and which is the reason we started to do the movies and i'm very fortunate that my books all have five-star reviews on Amazon So if you wanna go out check up the books worth reading look at Amazon

1:00:35 And I'm very, very fortunate that this latest movie...I think we figured out the formula. I think that if we do another movie it'll be along the same veins and the same style as this latest one because I think people like us so if you do another one they will probably be along the same genre Awesome awesome yes i've read maybe half of the eight books at this point they are all very thick their phone book that and there just. Case after case no wasted time they're definitely great resource material like an understand how even for you given interviews you know it's really easy to resource these things in the book because the way you lay out the bibliography and glossary have in the back,

1:01:20 It's really great stuff i mean it is basically a case file and book format i try to make it easy on everybody can go through it kinda like the way you would have a policeman so there's not a lot of drama there's not a lot of intrigue other than what is their. And in the stories themselves there is but i don't throw a lot extra into it Mm-hmm, and I think that's wise so right on well. I really do appreciate your time And I can't thank you enough for the work you do So impressive of course as you said both films are available to rent or buy on most digital platforms Is there anything else we should say in closing about following up with your work getting in touch anything like that?

1:02:04 You know, the biggest thing is right now I really wish that everybody out there would take a look at that movie because i think that there's some trail safety guidelines and some stories out there that people would think you know. There isn't a story I've ever written about Greg where people thought it would happen to them Yet, every one of those cases there's a victim and a victim's family that's living in a nightmare. So if you have a night free go on to one of those digital platforms it only costs a few bucks right now to watch the movie And I think you'd be impressed. I agree, we definitely left a lot of details and cases from the film on the table for people to check out because when you're doing an interview like this you don't want to give away a full movie yet when you have 8 books with 100 cases each it's easy to pull some cases out there and go through them in minute detail but there are definitely somethings left in the table that I hope people check out so here

1:03:01 Huge thanks again. Keep up the great work and take care out there! Hey, thanks a million Greg Well there is definitely something strange in the neighborhood Hireside Chatters And I am so happy we got David back to break it down with a long overdue update and I feel a lot of comments about it being time to have David back and I don't disagree I've asked a couple times, but when a person is in high demand it's about catching them at the right moment. Like when they have something new coming out So the stars aligned and i like to think we made the best of it Of course It's a little bit different to cover material from a film rather than a book But we had a great return to form in The Second Hour where we could just outline some cases from the Land Air & Water book

1:03:50 including a lot of unconventional high strangeness cases and maybe some that speak to more specific phenomenon than the bulk of the cases in David's work, which I think are still pretty mysterious and much harder to pin down. But as far as paranormal documentaries that I've seen lately go, Missing 411 Hunted is about as good as you can ask for. It's fresh it's not a UFO doc it's not a Bigfoot doc and it's amazing to hear from people who were on the fringes of some of these cases or the people who knew the missing victims and their take on this whole thing. It's really well done and I feel

1:04:37 So bad, actually for the people affected by this. David obviously has a lot of empathy and sympathy for the victims in these cases and we should too! It's not just juicy paranormal radio missing-people material it's a real thing happening out there or...a couple of things And it's damn scary and there is a lot of very real fallout from whatever it is But when it comes to talking about it, I like to think that I have a deeper understanding of certain things like the nuances within paranormal categories than I did the first time. Like maybe there aren't well-defined paranormal categories but another would be the fact that a lot of indigenous cultures just have these areas in which they do not go That they say are cursed or just contain a very bad mojo

1:05:34 They recognize it, they respect it and they don't mess with it. Our culture doesn't have that reverence for unknown dangers of a spiritual nature and maybe this is the result if these are portal places of some kind maybe they're not just open to one thing but are actually exposed to a world of things Maybe that could help us out with why so many of these cases are the same but different. Yeah, they check a lot of profile point boxes But in ways it are too different to be the same thing at least that's how I see them Of course we have the issue of these paranormal places conveniently being overlaid within national parks

1:06:16 And it's possible that we have a subconscious attunement to avoid these places. Maybe we have some sort of subtle magnetic repulsion that doesn't register our conscious minds and, That is how over time these portal places become the last remaining wilderness in an industrial society could be that I also think the idea of an advanced predator is intriguing, something that learned that if you hang out in these areas the prey will come to you. But predators don't usually leave people behind to be found alive or dead unless again it's some sort of predator of a spiritual nature which i think is a very real thing that is a part of more cultures than its missing from It just happens to be missing from ours

1:07:11 The other thing that David brought up, that I hadn't heard proposed before directly was a type of portal opening technology or testing of that sort of stuff in these areas. That really got the wheels turning for me and it's not like that's David's conclusion but sometimes i think we do look at government as a perpetrator for things that are really far older and deeper and embedded in our world in ways we just don't understand, because that's actually a lot more terrifying than some CIA operation. And as for technology if we did happen to be going into cursed areas or America has an empire is dealing with some curse of the indigenous people does that qualify as a technology? Indigenous technology maybe

1:08:03 Magic is a natural technology as far as I'm concerned. So, I don't know just something to consider But i definitely appreciate David coming back again! I hope we don't go so long in between updates next time but if you liked him being here it's important to let them know and that's true for all our guests so that when they do have new material out they know which shows have been the most impactful to them They know which audiences are hungry for more...so don't be shy when it comes to that And in higher side news, a lot of people are aware that we just went through this crazy website overhaul and it didn't go very smoothly but the team has worked all week on correcting a laundry list of issues and I can't think of any major problems related to the site migration that haven't been solved. We have reached The Promised Land!

1:08:58 I think you're going to love the new version of the highersidechats.com, i'm trying to be not just one of the highest quality podcasts in these strange stuff conspiracy genre when it comes to the content but I also want the website to be a top level website as well I've been doing this for pretty much 8 or 9 years and some of the tools, plugins and systems that i started with were the only options at the time. And now the systems a person can use to have something like extra content for paid subscribers are nearly endless So I made some major upgrades to get us away from older systems and transferred to some that are newer, smoother and better tools to be future resistant. I'd say future proof but a show that talks about conspiracy is never future proof it seems But we had a few rough weeks making updates that will take us through many good years And i think thats a worthy trade

1:10:01 I know some of our oldest and most passionate Plus members are having reoccurring access issues around the time that their payments come through, and i fix these manually for people when it happens. But for the long term, I think the developers I'm working with are all in consensus that the only thing that will really fix what these people are dealing with is for them to cancel the old subscription and sign up fresh in the new system Not my favorite solution, but I think people can understand how sometimes older data just isn't apples to apples in a newer system. So if you're suffering from this issue before you get charged again maybe cancel and resubscribe if you don't mind Talk to me about a little extra time for your trouble But sometimes it's just is what it is

1:10:50 Of course, I'm going to contact these people individually and help walk them through this process. But if you're technologically inclined and you don't mind making that change it would be a huge help to both of us. And i want to get into the whole thing but the basic issue for these long-standing plus members is that the old archaic system used to charge for a monthly subscription every 30 days Regardless of how many days were in a month. And the new system is smart enough to keep everything tied to the same date of each month, and of course not every month has 30 days so on months with 31 days The new system looks for a charge doesn't see one and takes away access and my developers could probably fix this

1:11:36 but it's a policy of the payment processor not to allow for a back-end change related to someone's billing cycle, and that's fair. You don't want to sign up for something that's monthly and then someone changes it to be weekly or daily... And that's not what you signed up for! So I get it ethically Even though this is only a small minor change, a change to a billing cycle is a change to a billing cycle. And I don't think we can do it so we're gonna have to go through that cancel re-sign up process for that small category of people that are dealing with that issue

1:12:15 What can you do? Like I said, the technology changes. New systems emerge and I like to put the plus money back into the business when i can and that's what this whole thing was! I think it's easy to see the new site and infrastructure is a lot better and more professional And now that our growing pains are pretty much behind us come on in... The water is fine Most listeners know that we keep the show operating at a high level and commercial free by releasing the first hour with no caveats or asks for donations or anything like that. And then, if you like what I do, We have an extended two-hour version of all the interviews i do around here... ...and that is for Plus Members who sign up for the low low cost of $8 a month It's simple! Everyone's doing it! You understand?

1:13:05 But I try to make sure that I'm bringing you the best shows with the best guests I can. And that's my job, not so bad actually! We did just have two great episodes one with Nassim Haramein talking about his model for the reality we're in and The Hollow Earth And then another with Recluse talking about his Jeffrey Epstein coverage. And we got two more coming out very soon, one about geomantic cities and the magical takeover of the ancient American landscape by the early founders... That's a bit of a mind blower! ...and we also have a health show based on these structured water work of Dr. Pollack and Optimum Hydration So stick around same bat time same bat channel, and I'll see you later

1:13:50 Sign up for Plus at thehighersidechats.com, rent David's movie Missing 411 Hunted across all the digital platforms you know of and I'm getting out of here! I've done my part your move environmental entities mysterious missing people makers and a plethora of paranormal problems lurking in the darkness. This is important hear what i said I'm trying to tell you it's not paranoia not in It's just the hard truth. Knocked on your door while I still can to ask you a question, cause i know your head is still in the sand Don't be sheep till you're slaughter for the rest of your life Oppressed oppressed but you're getting woke You say you don't want to be stressed until the day you die Tough luck my friend Did ya get the memo? Can't you see that we are so screwed? Don't you know where our cars

1:14:56 Can't you just admit we're screwed? I'm gonna tell you anyway It's a scary dark world Scary, are y'okay? Can't you see that we're so- You sit and wish but we don't have a choice Seems we're stuck here But you can find nose to drown out the noise Now use that altar End up your magic game

1:15:39 I listen to THC, you know You go with the entities If you ever see a pho Don't be sheep till ya slaughter for the rest of your life Oppressed, oppressed but you're getting woke You say you don't want to be stressed until the day you die Tough luck my friend Did you get the memo? Can't you say that we're so screwed? Don't you know we're our kung fu Can't you just admit we're screwed? I'm gonna tell you this anyway, it's your surprise. Hurry up everyday Just say you'll be okay Can't you see that we're so- Yeah, yeah, eh

1:16:54 Don't be sheep to your slaughter for the rest of your life Oppressed, oppressed but you're getting woke You say you don't want to be stressed until the day you die Tough luck my friend Did ya get the memo? Can't you see that we're so screwed? Don't you know we are kung fu? Can't you just admit we're screwed I'm gonna tell you this anyway It's a scary dark world Something scarier everyday Can't you see that we're sick?