David Crowe | Coronavirus COVID-19: The Risks, The Testing, & The Treatments

00:05 In the 1930s, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed the nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the Fireside Chats. His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times. I'm Greg Carlwood and I deal with a different kind of fire. For a new era of worldly frustration we offer a fresh conversation. These are the higher side chats. Sweet, sweet quarantine dear people of the internet from sunny San Diego I'm Greg Carlwood and i think we're all a little surprised at just how quickly things can turn And like me I think many of us were letting the coronavirus fear porn beat off of us like water on a duck's back but as more states and countries issue orders of safe distancing self-quarantine and shelter in place

00:55 I'm starting to worry much more about the very Orwellian actions being implemented, how quickly we fall in line without any pushback and how often we're going to allow freedoms to be subverted under the very worn-out reasoning that this is all for our safety. While there is no shortage of commentary or speculation when it comes to the coronavirus its origins or its purpose But some of the most interesting material I've been following suggests that we really need to rethink our assumption that deadly, contagious viruses emerge randomly throughout the human timeline wiping out huge numbers of us in their wake. Because when you dig deeper into many of the major disease waves like polio, West Nile, HIV-AIDS, SARS, mad cow and more we can often find alternative causes for large numbers of people getting sick in their time and place. Usually due to the widespread use of some corporate toxic chemical or the rollout of inaccurate tests that over inflate the numbers and contribute to widespread panic

01:53 It's a fairly extreme perspective, but you come to THC for the extremes and the educated researchers who can make the best case for them. And today we have just such a guy! His name is David Crowe and by trade he is a telecommunications consultant from Alberta Canada But he's also an environmentalist writer and strong critic of science and medicine He started by looking at HIV AIDS and even founded the Alberta Reappraising AIDS Society where he was appointed to president in 2008. He was also the co-host and co-founder of The How Positive Are You Podcast, a weekly podcast of surprising news and views on HIV & AIDS which ran until 2017... ...and still has archives available for anyone interested

02:38 But he's also the man behind the Infectious Myth podcast, which looks at the wider scope of infectious disease, the prevailing scientific theories on them and aspects they don't really want you to know. Well coronavirus is certainly keeping him busy and I'm psyched to have him here today! The contagiousness critic and the infectiousness educator and a sober voice in these troubled times David welcome to The Higher Side Thank you and I hope some of the information that i have is contagious even though the virus we'll see is not one small correction. I founded the Alberta Reprising AIDS Society in 1999 and I was appointed president of Rethinking AIDS, which is an international organization of skeptics of the HIV theory in 2008. Oh fair my mistake! It's easy to get those things it's okay there are a few things in my bio for sure Well it is rare for me to mess up a bio but we are moving quite quickly over the last few days so uh... That is an understatement

03:39 Like from when I first wrote my first paragraph on oh my god This is SARS all over again in and this has got so much bigger than SARS and so much more out of control And for reasons that have nothing to do with a virus that have all to do with human things pieces of paper where people write things on them, and make rules and people follow those rules in the number of cases you get depends on which rules you're following. Yes, well said and of course we're going to unpack all this and thanks so much for taking the time I'm sure your high demand i find it a reasonable database guy and I've been very impressed with your presentation from a few years ago called rethink all viruses still on youtube for the time being and also your coverage on the coronavirus that's

04:29 been on the podcast and in your available PDF. To me, when we talk about medical topics and alternative advice I get really nervous because the stakes are so high. I would never want to lead someone astray or give them bad information that puts them in harm's way this is clearly not a time to promote alternative theories just because we're stubborn and spiteful of the system. So I do take that responsibility pretty seriously, and I'm sure you do too. And to break the ice, tell people a little bit about how you became such a skeptic of infectious disease in general if you could?

05:06 I think there's multiple threads, but when i graduated in science with a bachelor's degree um I was I was a lot more interested in sort of the theoretical aspects of science than other people and I was studying an area of science called taxonomy. The relationships between plants you might equate it to the evolution of plants or animals And in fact my bachelors thesis was published in a peer reviewed journal on the subject. The quantum of taxonomy is the species and I became very interested in the fact that you cannot define a species

05:47 There are distinct species that can interbreed at times and in fact, that's what I was studying in university. There are things like the lichens which are algae and fungi that live symbiotically but act as if they were a single species so here you have to fundamental unit of important area biology that is not definable. I mean, it's not useless but you cannot come up with a precise definition if you want to define a species for lichen or fox or for daisy then the definition is going to be slightly different which is bit of shock for people who like their science in nice neat boxes like most scientists so anyway I went on to career in computer programming and telecommunications and things like that but kept interest in environmentalism

06:34 and science, and when I heard about AIDS, I just accepted everything. But in the early 1990s, I started...I accidentally heard a radio program that was my first indication that there were scientists who disagreed that HIV was the cause of AIDS. People like Dr Peter Duesberg, professor of molecular biology at Berkeley still there doing research but not on HIV because he can't get money or publications And so I gradually got more and more into this. And by the end of the 1990s, I had come across the work of those so-called Perth Group from Australia and they had questioned that the existence of HIV and I thought to myself why don't I do that for another virus? So West Nile Virus came along in 1999 and I wrote a paper around the year 2000 saying does it exist? And I was shocked by what virologists were calling isolation

07:34 isolation should mean we separated the virus from everything else. Well, they basically grind up a brain of a crow or something and they filter it to get rid of the lumps and then they add that material to a cell culture and if they see cells dying, they say we've isolated a virus Clearly not isolation clearly not purification and as time went on I decided. I needed to write a book Called the infectious myth talking about these infectious diseases that have other explanations for why people are getting sick and dying that are or not infectious explanations, or maybe the Explanation is infectious if you read the book You'll get so excited but it's not an infectious organism That's causing the problem hmm

08:22 Yes that is a great overview of the contacts people might need for this current situation and it's just like it's interesting because we've talked to other guests about. Big historical bullet points like polio and the black death and i do hope we can highlight some other examples as we go to kind of make the strong overall case but right now clearly people are concerned with what's most immediate and that's the corona virus you have written this paper on it and people can find that linked in the show notes with this interview. And to quote the intro about papery write,

09:00 The coronavirus scare that emanated from Wuhan, China in December 2019 is an epidemic of testing. There is no proof that a virus has been detected by the test and there is absolutely no concern about whether there are significant number of false positives on the test What is being published in medical journals is not science. Every paper has the goal of enhancing the panic by interpreting the data only in ways that benefit the viral theory, even when the data is confusing or even contradictory." In other words, the medical papers are propaganda!

09:36 And man those are strong words and i like strong words but talk to us about your reasoning there talk just about the test and what these medical papers are putting out. So some scientists in China and since then in other places found some RNA that is different. Now, everybody probably knows about DNA but RNA is kind of the poor sister of DNA but it might be more important. In the nucleus of our cells we have the DNA and the chromosomes that sort of represents our being in a sense you know? That's our genes And they're kept

10:15 In the nucleus and by themselves they're relatively passive. They can't actually do anything but the cell decides it needs something done and So it will arrange for the DNA to produce some RNA so RNA is very similar It's like 3 quarters identical to DNA that RNA may produce a protein. It may be a message of some kind, okay? I don't think we're close to understanding all the things that RNA can do but the important point is that every living cell contains RNA and that means every cell in our body and within our cells we have things called mitochondria which have their own DNA and their own RNA

11:00 bacteria, fungi. It's believed that viruses have RNA so if you find RNA you have not proven that it came from a virus now these scientists said well we found coronavirus RNA before and it all looks the same but if you go back you will find that nobody ever purified a coronavirus and said okay here we have some particles We looked at them under the electron microscope and they're all identical there are thousands of them So we took half the sample and we put it under electron microscope to prove that it's pure. And then, we took the other half which now know is pure and we analyzed RNA and found RNA or DNA in some viruses. Nobody has done that so its completely speculative this RNA comes from a virus Now how could come from our human body?

11:48 Well, unlike DNA RNA is much more malleable. It's produced and consumed back again all the time so your body doesn't necessarily always have the same RNA at every time So possibly this RNA is related to respiratory diseases Maybe it's a messenger in your body telling another part of your body that you need to produce something that will help fight off this respiratory infection that could be an explanation of why people with respiratory diseases seem to be more commonly positive than those who don't have them. Although there's more than a few people who are perfectly asymptomatic, who have this RNA If this test was completely meaningless like just the random number generator but tended to give the same result on a person That's important because if it always gave different results for people That'd be one thing

12:42 We would be doing the same thing. If we believe this test is for a virus, well we will react to it in the way we are whether it's meaningful or not because once we ascribe meaning to it then we can shut the world down in order to get rid of it but if its not a virus our actions will NOT get rid of it! If there's a lot of false positives you will continue to get false positives nothing will make them go away So let's say that there was a virus, but we had to test with a lot of false positives. So we eliminate the virus from Omaha okay? But we continue to test in Omaha and we continue to get positives since if we were God we would know well there is actually no virus left in Omaha and so all these positives are false positives but as humans we would think they're real cases And so the epidemic will go on and on

13:41 And unless we wake up, there's only a few ways out of it. One way is to change the testing standards which I believe has been done several times such as in China and if you tighten up the test standards you could make the number of positive tests reduce dramatically or there is what they call a test algorithm You might test three times and the question is What do you do with two are positive one is negative? Do you consider that a positive or an infected or uninfected person? How do you interpret multiple test results

14:18 is not the same in every place and it could be changed over time. So if you go from saying, for example that we're going to do three tests and if one of them's positive the person's infected to you have to have three positive tests before we believe your infected then you would dramatically reduce the number of supposedly infected people In China, for example I've been reading a paper that's only in Chinese or trying to get it translated. They did two tests but the way they did it was the worst possible way so they did the first test and if you were positive they said your infected done then if you were negative they did the second test and if you were positive they said your infected done And if you are negative both times you're considered uninfected So that is biased strongly towards false positives

15:10 And the reason they did that is because they didn't want to miss any cases. They said, what harm does a false positive cause? Somebody goes in quarantine 14 days later we let them out. They're not sick. They go home no big deal But if the number of false positives is greater than the number true positive you've wasted massive amounts of resources and if any of those people get sick you now believe there are real case. And you gonna treat them with toxic drugs which is a whole nother section we can get into yes that is really great breakdown I am so concerned over the accuracy up

15:48 This test there so much blind trust in the test i already see some scary possibilities down the road the implications of testing positive and this climate have huge ramifications for a person Whether it's just being a social pariah for a little while, who knows how long? Or if it turns into some kind of forced treatment. Now you don't have control or autonomy over yourself! You better hope you don't test positive for any of these tests but I guess more and more can be said about the accuracy and that kinda stuff. Well okay so there is this Chinese paper I'm reading It said that amongst asymptomatic people

16:28 We estimate that the false positive rate is 80%. I think that should be shocking. And that's not unusual for biological tests, they also said the opposite of that is there's a 20% probability if you get a positive test it's a real positive. So okay consumes a lot of resources puts people in quarantine which is damaging psychologically to people If your twenty its one thing but what if your eighty and your weak? You're used to having your family around to look after your needs you are now in a hospital room surrounded by people can't see cuz wearing gowns and they're gonna do the minimum for you but where is your daughter to help you out or your son where's the grandkids.

17:15 Like, I think that kind of thing to elderly people can be incredibly damaging. And it's the elderly people who are dying there is the Superior Institute for Public Health in Italy, the ISS has published a summary of their analysis of the deaths from coronavirus positive people and they studied they're currently up to about 2000 test or 2000 files that they've analyzed And they found three people out of 2000 who did not have pre-existing health conditions. They found an average age of 80, so what we're seeing is very elderly people who have pre existing health conditions going into the hospital with some kind of pneumonia or flu or some kind of respiratory illness. They're isolated, they are offered extremely toxic drugs

18:15 And they're often unnecessarily intubated, which means sticking a tube into you into your lungs to supposedly help you breathing. But that can be also very damaging. So the aggressive treatment which comes along with the panic that we have this deadly new virus is a factor now I think a lot of those 2000 people who died probably would have died in 2020 anyway 50% of them had three or more pre-existing health conditions, which included chronic renal failure, liver disease, cancer and various heart disorders.

18:53 Hypertension was the least significant of these things. But 50% had three or more pre-existing conditions, so these are very very weak people. They probably would have died this year but they might've been helped along by doctors who are not trying to kill them, they're sincerely trying to help but in a panic they say well what about this new antiviral drug from Gilead called Remdesivir? It's being researched for Ebola, so maybe it'll work for coronavirus. Let's give it a shot! I mean can an 80 year old with three pre-existing health conditions tolerate that?

19:31 Yes, those are important questions. When we look at just the numbers in this country that we have right now... I mean last i looked it was just over 11 000 cases and total deaths a little bit more than 150. And so the suggestion here is that this aggressive treatment could be responsible for these 150 deaths and not a virus? Is that what we're saying? Yeah like in In the italian report which is it was i keep going back to because its a good source of information i'd love to have this information from united states like i tried to find out about the twenty two who died in nursing home in washington. State if anybody has this information i wanna get it,

20:16 Were they treated with antiviral drugs? Were they treated with high dose corticosteroids, were they all intubated like what was their treatment. Was this normal for elderly people with pneumonia or did they rush to some higher level of treatment in the Italian report considering deaths of coronavirus positive people 52% had been put on anti viral drugs quite likely the remdesivir, which is this Ebola drug that people are all excited about. 27% were put on high-dose corticosteroids. Now both of these things antiviral drugs and corticosteroids after SARS and I have a book chapter online which details what happened during SARS both of these were criticized for being ineffective and toxic

21:12 For example, the antiviral drug used in SARS which is not being used this time around caused hemolytic anemia. Which is like the breakdown of your blood cells It caused liver problems in 75% of people Corticosteroids caused ongoing neurological deficit In a large number of people it cause osteonecrosis which is basically rotting of your bones which causes a need for joint replacements in many people who were treated during SARS So these drugs they're giving are not friendly drugs and they're being given to people the average age of 80 who have pre-existing health conditions. I mean, I'm repeating myself but I define this to be absolutely insane. Yes and i actually love what you're saying and I've been digesting material from other journalists that are saying similar things, the few that are, and it's really good for

22:11 de-stressing over this whole entire thing so i don't mind reiterating it, I actually had a little thing from John Rappaport here where he talks about the very same thing. I think he's referencing the same report but he says many people who are diagnosed as coronavirus cases in Italy and then died were almost certainly put on these antiviral drugs Yeah, well now we have the numbers. I think what first came out was a news report of a press conference which is kind of sketchy on details but the Italian report is very clear it's got nice graphs and its got numbers and you know it's basically saying that for the first 2000 people

22:55 We don't even know for sure that the three people who had no pre-existing health conditions died from the virus. They're investigating to see if there was anything else, but I mean what is this panic for? And if I can talk about numbers for a second somebody sent me a paper on flu in Italy. Italy's around 63 65 million people Bad flu season like twenty sixteen twenty seventeen i calculated from numbers in this paper that there could be seventeen thousand deaths of sixty five plus people. In italy seventeen thousand in one week did i say in one week

23:41 So, so that's the background in a bad flu season. In the peak week like the worst week of the flu season you could have 17000 deaths and um You know in a normal week he might have 10 000. So the deaths from that are ascribed to the coronavirus so far are not really much more than a little bump And it's quite probable that these elderly people are the people who normally would be included in the flu seasons mortalities. I mean, I couldn't believe this number but I said okay if everybody in Italy lives to 80 and there 65 million so divide 65 million by 80 by 52 the number of weeks in a year, I got something like 12 thousand

24:33 people need to die every week in Italy if the average age is 80, average lifespan is 80. So 17000 is not that far out and yet we've got a much smaller number and we're saying the sky is falling And I think what we're doing is reclassifying deaths We are hastening deaths through aggressive treatment Um...and I don't know if the broader world will ever figure this out Because we idolize doctors so much that we only listen to what comes out of their mouths So if after this is all over and the doctors say That all the social isolation The quarantining, the aggressive treatment. It was all a grand success! The press are gonna write down You know Dr. So-and-so said our approach to the coronavirus was a grand success

25:29 They're never going to ask tough questions, which is deeply disturbing to me. Yes and I'm curious...I'm sure a lot of the listeners are too Is there a real virus? It's not a retrovirus it's an RNA virus they say The test is looking at RNA There was a lot of speculation about is this a bioweapon whatever I don't think people are that concerned about that now They just don't want to get something Is there even something TO get Well, I don't think so. My paper does not rest entirely on that but i mean i start with saying we got this test for RNA nobody's purified the virus we do not have the proof that is actually a test for a virus but if you say okay well i know i don't buy that you know this RNA is viral it doesn't eliminate the risk of false positives and nobody has done the analysis like for example

26:25 Why don't we go through the freezers of hospitals which are full of historical samples, of snot? Which is basically what they get. Or throat swabs, right? Sputin. And these are frozen and stored for years for various research. So why don't we analyze a few thousand of those in a blinded setting, mixed with samples from current patients and see if we only find the RNA in the new samples? Because if we find 1% of historical samples are testing positive on this test that means we have

27:08 false positive rate and that is very significant. Let me explain in Wuhan, a city of 10 million 1% false positive rate would mean there's 100000 positive people in Wuhan with a with a one percent false positive rate so because the majority of people don't have the disease A small false positive rate can dominate over at the actual number of positives That makes sense and as far as the test is concerned i've heard you talk about the fact that you would expect many private organizations to be working on a better testing we'd like the free market decide but what's actually happening who makes the test. Well the the test is based on pcr technology,

28:00 And basically if you've got the primers, the little bits of RNA not the entire string of RNA. The little bits of RNA that you use to start the whole thing off then you basically are just customizing a standard PCR machine to become a coronavirus testing machine So you know PCR is great very flexible technology but people have almost their religious faith in its capabilities I should talk a little bit about the inventor of PCR Carey Mullis he got the Nobel Prize in 1993 and sadly and tragically He died last year because I think we could really use some advice from him under the current circumstances But this is one of the interesting things is in 1996. Dr. Peter Duesberg who I've mentioned wrote a book called inventing to AIDS virus which questioned whether HIV caused AIDS and

28:53 And the foreword was written by Carey Mullis. So Carey Mullis was no establishment scientist, the reason he was able to invent this major advance in biotechnology PCR was because he was such a creative and thoughtful scientist and he didn't go along with The Herd so he was right up there with Peter Duesburg saying well maybe HIV isn't the cause of AIDS So I think he might be very skeptical. He also said that quantitative PCR is an oxymoron and by that, I mean using my technology to measure the amount of RNA or DNA will not work And that's of course exactly what they're doing in many cases with this test

29:44 And maybe if we can talk about the test a little bit, I can explain that this test like almost all biological tests is not a binary test. By binary mean infected uninfected positive negative reactive non-reactive there are essentially no tests for infectious diseases that are binary They are all a continuum of something. And often it is a color change or something like that, that is measured and if the color is deeper than a certain amount then you're positive So with PCR... PCR is a cyclic technique It's a very simple technique If you did it once you'd say why did we bother? But it doubles the amount of DNA at every step so if you do it

30:37 10 times you get about a thousand times more DNA. If you do it 20 times, you get 1 million times more 30 times, a billion times more so is a very powerful technique for manufacturing DNA its use for testing is as a little bit more sketchy. So what they basically do is they run this test Until they get sufficient material to be detected. At a certain level like the often use fluorescence so that glow is bright enough and they say okay we got enough material will stop and then record the number of cycles so it might be 20 30 40. And then have an arbitrary cut off when i say if you get to 37 cycles and you don't have enough material generated your negative

31:31 The problem with that is if we follow that, in one paper that was published by researchers from Singapore they found that they followed... They tested a group of people 18 people for 1 to 2 weeks every day. So every day they had a test and in the majority of cases the patients went from positive or infected one day to negative or uninfected the next day, no big deal maybe they've been cured. But then back to positive or infected so how can this be? If the test is accurate and it's showing that you are infected when it's positive and uninfected when your negative then what was happening to these people how did they get reinfected in a sterile hospital situation Or maybe the tests just not very good

32:25 Yes it's very insightful i know there is a lot of nuance and complexity to these sorts of things yeah i'm getting a little too deep into this but you know pcr so important, it's like understanding how the internal combustion engine works right like its integrated into our society. This is probably more important right now than knowing how A car works. There and not to be too paranoid but i wonder about a potential situation where once we're all inside, and they send out these tests maybe we have the test negative two reintegrate into society is there a way to beat the test if that were to happen. I haven't even considered that question of beating the tests i mean the test

33:15 The test is positive in people who have absolutely no symptoms, quite frequently. I think on the Princess Diamond cruise ship it was about 50% of people who tested positive were symptomatic and 50% were not Um, so you theoretically have to test every person in the United States in order to say which ones are clear or not. But there's also people will test positive one day and then negative the next in one hospital in China I think in Guangzhou they found that 14% of people who'd been released on the basis that they tested negative twice later tested positive. And, of course, they believe so much in the test, there must be some deep significance to this but I think the deep significance is the test sucks and cannot be relied on to detect a virus and probably should not be being used. It has created this whole thing

34:16 Global economic social disaster potentially out of nothing but the hubris of doctors who get a shiny machine which is high tech and cost a lot of money and they assume it can do no wrong right. Yes, and to back up just a little and talk about the virus itself or how this started. You did an episode of your podcast where you talked with Dr James Lyons Wheeler who holds the conventional opinions on this virus and was giving the conventional advice about social distancing and what have you but you asked a really insightful question

34:56 the first initial cases where you said, if this new virus has the same symptoms as pneumonia or the seasonal flu what was it that would bring the first doctor of coronavirus detection to suggest that this even was something new? And I'm curious about that as well. How did this get started before the panic set in? It's kind of absurd... The doctor Who started it i think a doctor lee who sadly died and I think he might be one of the victims of the antiviral drugs. He wrote an email saying there are seven people in quarantine our hospital this is highly unusual there must be a new virus circulating well he's an ophthalmologist

35:42 So, I don't know how he... Chinese have been criticized because the doctors at the hospital said calm down. You're getting carried away But maybe the other Chinese doctors were right. But when this memo got out, and the Chinese government was deeply embarrassed by looking like they were covering up this thing, they said okay well we gotta come up with a test for it and then the whole thing fell apart but it was seven people And you know doctors aren't very good at detecting poisoning China

36:22 it doesn't always use things like pesticides very carefully. So you could have seven cases of pesticide poisoning possibly related to the seafood market who end up with serious pneumonia-like symptoms and chemicals can cause pneumonia-like symptoms, and maybe they all died and the doctors assumed this was a deadly new infection but it might've been a bad case of food poisoning due to some kind of carelessness with some of the farmers at the market or maybe somebody had gone around the market and fumigated the market while there was still animals and foods there. There's a million things that could explain seven people getting sick. Right, so wow just to reiterate The doctor who kicked this off was an optometrist who is now dead just a few months after it started

37:17 Yes, I mean there's pictures of him in the hospital with tubes coming out and the whole bit ready. I mean people say why would he die? And i'm saying look I've known some doctors if one of your friends is sick a fellow doctor you're gonna make sure they get the best treatment and you know even in china where Everybody is equal some are more equal than others and if you're a doctor in the hospital, you're gonna get the gold plated treatment just as if she's in pain. The party chairman was in your hospital right he doesn't have the same treatment everybody else it's just a fact right and this thing is true in canada with our socialized medicine hockey players gets to the front of the line politicians gets the front of the line and of course america got money you get the front of the line

38:02 So they probably said well look we've we've got this guy who's sick. He's a bit of a hero now let's try remdesivir on him or Or Kaletra another antiviral drug or something like that Like they might have thrown everything at him because saying we gotta save this guy, but actually they ended up killing him I mean it I don't know. I'm only speculating but it seems he was 34 years old and There are many thirty four year olds dying of the supposed coronavirus there are pointed out mostly people in their seventies eighties nineties. Right right yeah i just think about the ramifications how this all rolled out and it seems just,

38:43 A little strange this all happened so fast with the control mechanisms if this is all just some random pop up of a virus i mean we've had these things happen before bird flu swine flu we didn't do anything like this and the fact that the person who kicked it off, is dead. It's just curious to me from a certain point. Yeah, I mean another another curious thing is that there was sort of a pandemic training session which i think was run in Wuhan or somewhere like that and Wuhan does have a big virus laboratory and I think this kicked off a lot of conspiracy theorists saying you know okay this was a plan bringing the new world order it was a bioweapon stuff like that but this is what I think happens

39:26 is doctors are trained in what to do in a pandemic situation. And of course, if you've just gone through training, you know, a live exercise there's this deadly new virus out there and it's all just on computers but you have been trained about what to do Also, you're in a city that has a virology lab. So if you say in a Wuhan hospital I wonder if we could get this these seven patients analyzed for You know panel of viruses let's look for a few thousand viruses and somebody says oh I got to contact at the Wuhan Virology Lab no problem

40:07 It might not be so easy, even in Beijing or Shanghai where they don't have this virology lab. It might be much more difficult but it's just down the road So you know a couple of days later You get the results back and they say yeah these seven people seem to have the same RNA And but they might have tested for 10,000 different viruses So it might just be a statistical coincidence if you test for enough viruses In seven people you're gonna come up with a random Coincidence like if you shake dice enough times you're gonna get six sixes in a row right it's just. A matter of how long do you sit there shaking dice?

40:45 Right. And while we're kind of talking about the speculation out there in terms of causes, you work in telecommunications? Do you put any stock in the speculation that the polluted city of Wuhan mixed with an implementation of 5G in October could be a contributing factor? Could that be possible? Yeah I'm sad that's got thrown into the mix because I'm a telecom expert and I don't know what 5g is 5G uses frequencies that are lower than 4G and higher. So I have no idea what frequencies they were using, the higher frequencies generally don't go very far for example a recent study in big city in US probably Chicago or New York found that

41:30 The 5G system from one operator that was running at 600 megahertz, which is a low frequency was detectable throughout the entire city. But the high frequencies that people are more concerned about 30 gigahertz was detectable only in 6% of the city if you have a 30 gigahertz transmitter on one side of a glass window, you will not get any significant amount of energy. You will not get detectable energy coming out the other side at the glass window. So these 5G high frequency systems have very low footprint

42:16 And so it's gonna be a long time before any city is like based in 5G and it will probably only be you know pedestrian areas downtown because the cost of putting. You know a little antenna every twenty meters. Twenty yards if you're american is going to be too great so no i don't buy it but i'm not a lot of people are excited about five g to me five years buzzword like four g, it's kind of a very fuzzy concept includes Everything that's new gets thrown into 5g just like 10 years ago everything it was new got thrown into the 4G umbrella. Fair, fair well do you think EMF radiation or frequencies could cause flu-like symptoms?

43:05 Well, no. But I'm a telecom consultant so this is an area where I obviously have a financial conflict of interest and make money from being a telecom consultant so I want you to consider that when you consider what i am saying. I genuinely believe this but it's like im not unbiased party Fair wow i just never heard anyone be just so. Forthright about their biases before and i just think that's interesting and awesome of you to say regardless of, this situation is small potatoes in this big scheme it's like people here virus and they're looking for a cause but there might not be a cause defined because this might be a manufactured situation

43:55 Right. Well, it's to me it's kind of like the bioweapon first is there a virus then let's talk about a bio weapon if there's a virus we can talk about whether it was a laboratory accident vaccine experiment gone wrong a bioweapon or something that came out of a bat or pangolin or whatever right? Or maybe a virus that's been around for hundreds of years and we just freaked out So that's the fundamental question. Everybody says, well okay so there is no virus what is causing all these deaths? That I think is one of the big lies like I said in Italy we do not have evidence yet that there is a surge in deaths and if there was small surge it could be explained by aggressive treatment

44:47 And i'm very elderly and weak people so all the stuff about five g assumes that there was a surge in illness in wuhan in december. 2019 If there was no surgeon mortality then is really no purpose talking about the cause like is it. Air pollution is it 5g is eating bats like we're talking about causes for something that might not have happened if you have ten million people so it would actually be quite difficult to see a surge in mortality because from one year to the next,

45:29 you're probably gonna get quite a bit of variation in mortality, based probably on a lot of factors. You have bad flu seasons, you do definitely have air pollution there's lots of factors that can go into why mortality rates vary from year to year but if mortality rates vary a lot then it's going to be very difficult to see if there was actually anything happened and I do have some data A doctor, a colleague of mine in Washington DC said go look at the mortality statistics for 2003 for Hong Kong. So I looked at like 2000 through 2018 there was no surge in mortality during the SARS era and so I thought okay well it's Hong Kong what about Taiwan China Vietnam Canada Singapore? The other major affected countries

46:28 Only in Vietnam can you see a bump in 2003. In all of the other countries, the 2003 was completely in line with the previous years. Sometimes it was higher than 2002 but this is part of a general increasing trend and mortality But if you sort of look to how much higher was 2002 than 2001 and 2003 and 2002 there was no bump So SARS which was like a big deal left no footprints Wow, you're just presenting people with so much interesting info. And another point about the treatments we are hearing that there's some success with these old malaria or Ebola drugs and it sounds a little like big pharma trying to repurpose and resell stockpiles of old stuff in the warehouse Are you skeptical this? Yes well I mean i saw one paper that had a headline like

47:27 I think it was hydroxychloroquine cures a patient. Well, people go from coronavirus positive to coronavirus negative all the time and then two days later they go back so that doesn't necessarily mean anything but when you read the actual article in the article it said it was a virological cure So what does that mean? A virological cure means that the amount of virus or the detection of the virus changed. It doesn't mean that the health of the patient improved so, the question is if you have an 80 year old person with pneumonia who you think has the coronavirus and you give them hydroxychloroquine what is more important to you? That you get rid of the marker for the virus or that the person gets healthy and gets out of the hospital

48:22 Because their cure was not the person gets healthy and gets out of the hospital. Their cure was, oh now they're coronavirus negative but they still have pneumonia They're still on a ventilator They still are having kidney failure It's not what you think it is when they talk about these drugs having positive effects There was around two thousand six it was some anniversary of aids is an article in the new york times that it's a was written by doctor and he was reflecting back on what happened during the many years of age at that time

49:04 And he said something like this patient in the, um. In my waiting room with the wasted face with the genes that are, you know, buckle tightly around his skinny waist and a big hump of fat on his back. He is one of my successes because the amount of virus in his blood is almost zero But at the same time, the guy is dying from the side effects of the drugs and the doctor's almost proud of it. So that's what a cure means to a virologist. Very telling, very telling. And let's talk about contagiousness and transmission because I'm sure a lot of people are worried about that right now and i'm sure the panic is overhyped obviously you're pointing out that it is and the treatment may be causing more deaths than disease itself they're worried about going outside being near other people and... It's ridiculous! I went to recreation area and they were just closing their washrooms

50:05 permanently until this is over. And there's room at this recreation area for maybe 200 automobiles, for people to go skiing and biking and all kinds of other activities. And I'm thinking so washrooms were created as a public health measure. So people didn't defecate on the edge of the parking lot and cause disease But we're saying coronavirus is more important than all the known problems that occur when you don't provide washroom facilities. And at some point, you gotta go and so you go somewhere where somebody might step on it or a dog might investigate it and drag some of it home stuff like that I mean this is just absolute craziness We're losing sight of everything but

50:59 Transmissibility a couple of examples the princess diamond cruise ship was perfect incubator for the virus. For several days it kind of floated around until it got to japan and put into quarantine so for few days, the passengers all got to mix then they were sent to their cabins and in some cases there was somebody who is coronavirus positive in the cabin with someone who wasn't the crew I would mingle with the passengers because the passengers needed to eat right so somebody had to bring food to their quarters since they're passengers are not allowed to go to the dining room. So in this whole multi week soap opera where nobody wanted to handle these passengers 16% became positive sixteen percent

52:03 Um, there was a tiny number of deaths. I think it was like 1% and it was all amongst people who were 70 or older and have the people who did become coronavirus positive half of them had no symptoms. Another interesting case was the first so-called case of community transmission in America. So I think in Illinois, uh, a woman comes back from Wuhan to her husband who has chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and probably the reason you didn't go to wuhan was because he was too sick to travel so she comes back in heat test positive everybody's all excited look it's a case of transmission so they tracked down their contacts these two people.

52:47 It was three hundred and forty seven people in the world able to actually contact like three hundred twenty of them or something like that and they found not a single one of them. What's positive so how could this be i mean this man was um, Really quite sick, so he probably had in-home Nursing help there was probably a cleaner that came to the house. There were probably Children and grandchildren maybe great grandchildren that came to the house and out of all these contacts not one apart from the man himself Were infected by the woman who came back from China hmm curious thing as a lot of curious things

53:36 And as I said in my introduction, and i think this is really true. Is like...I want to look at the data and interpret it in the most sensible way possible But the people writing these medical papers will take this and they'll interpret it in a way that's beneficial for viral theory So they emphasize the fact that this old guy became positive He became infected by his wife That's exciting The 347 people who didn't become infected, well that's not really so exciting. But you know if you're a scientist you should be saying well okay obviously the transmissibility of this they talk about every person infecting three people and here you have the wife who infected one and the husband who infected zero I think the average infectivity what they call R0 is 0.5 not 3

54:32 So you think they'd say why, why is it in this case? But there's no curiosity. They just go on and find more evidence for their theories and ignore everything that's against their theories Yeah so if this is some kind of manufactured situation It has to be international in scope I guess Why aren't more people in the medical profession seeing through this or just following orders Well, there are some. I just got a message from Dr Henry Bauer who was he's not medical but he was the Dean of Arts and Sciences at Virginia Tech before he retired and um he was very positive about my

55:18 Paper he said everybody should read David crow's accounts. I fear that he has it right and the people who ought to know it will fight tooth and nail against admitting it And so, you know, I'm in contact with a number of Doctors and other medical professions and scientists who are on side but they're a tiny tiny minority That medicine is very hierarchical MDs are not scientists. They're really technicians they learn a lot of information They assume the information they learn as facts, and then they apply it that's not to denigrate that some of the wonderful things they can do but there are not scientists in that they sit have a patient and they go I wonder if

56:05 You know if what we should do with this one person you know in terms of doing something different it's not in the book. Because if you do something is not on the book that's not state-of-the art thats not proper procedure and your likely to get sued so u get forced into, this is you know there are three choices according to best practices so i'm gonna choose one of those three even if i think there may be a better option. I also think doctors and public health officials are little bit like pilots, like if you are in an airplane and an engine goes out it's very likely that the pilot has never been in that situation in a real airplane before this is the first time in his life he's had an engine go out how does he know exactly what to do?

56:56 Because he's been trained on flight simulators a million different ways and he knows exactly what to do not only that, But if there's two planes at the same time in different parts of the world run by different airlines and engines go out those to pilots are likely to do almost the same thing because they've been trained on the same simulators to do the same things pandemic training is the same thing. You you stock up on gowns and masks quarantine everybody could possibly be a subject it's a machine and just follow them machine the problem is the assumption is that promises

57:32 that if we follow the book, if we do everything it says in the book make people stay home close every unnecessary place where people might run into other people they've been promised that this will end the epidemic and I suspect it will not because its an epidemic of false positive testing. And they can't get rid of the positive tests because they can't admit that they have false positives so this thing could go on and on until a couple things could happen first of all They might say, OK. Well basically we have so many people infected remains or just stop in which case I think there's going to be some tough questions about you put us through you destroyed the world's economy and in the end you said well would it mean we didn't really do anything because we couldn't or they can maybe tighten up their testing procedures So nobody test positive or the diagnostic criteria? So basically It's very difficult to get tested

58:34 And if you get tested, they've changed the number of cycles such that very few people test positive. So there's very few ways out of this mess that they have created for themselves and they got there not by saying let's create a mess. They picked up the book on pandemics and they just followed it exactly the way it was supposed to be followed Well that's the thing this doesn't seem to be just an accident they got out of control does it mean there's gotta be some purpose someone or something is driving this is their agenda as a economic restructuring is it a big farm money grab. In south africa there's a famous incident where the leader of large tribe told all the members of his tribe to kill other cattle and nobody knows why he did this but he didn't

59:23 And they all obeyed the leader of the tribe and killed their cattle and then a massive famine erupted. You know, not surprising! I think this is one of those things The system worked It's a hierarchical system you do what your told, you kill your cattle Why am i starving? This is kind of where we are now. It's like, we've got social distancing, we've closed the restaurants, you've closed arenas, we close schools, We have closed everything and we're still getting cases. Like will people start to ask tough questions? Will they start to ask questions Of the doctors and public health officials or will they continue just focus on politicians Politicians in my mind are mostly idiots

1:00:06 And it's right for the press to ask tough questions of the politicians, but it's wrong for them not to ask tough questions of their medical officials. It's all softball questions. Yes, and it's like you know how are you doing working so hard do you have enough people? Do you have enough masks should we be doing more testing like nobody is there a single member of the press who's asked what is the false positive rate of this test and what's the implications A false positive and if we had a false positive problem, and we eliminated the virus How would we know? We'd eliminated the virus because we're still getting positive tests Like those are questions that should be asked by the press to medical officials And it's not happening right and why didn't SARS or West Nile or Zika require this level of action from everyone

1:01:04 That's a very interesting question and I think the end of SARS, and I kind of got into this with James Lyons-Weilers And he was a little bit shocked at what I said The end of SARS was definitional. The definition of SARS which you needed one or two symptoms such as a fever 1 degree over normal Which is pretty ridiculous You needed a positive SARS test And you needed a pardon me is the wrong order so you need to symptom or two you needed epidemiological contact you need contact with another stars patient and you needed a positive test. So basically if u went to the hospital instead i think i got stars they say you don't have any symptoms go away, you come with symptoms and it's ok have you been in contact with the stars patients can you say no but i think i got stars that they go away you do not have stars

1:01:59 Only if you had contact would you go to the test and being diagnosed with SARS. So what happened is once they got everybody in quarantine, and it was a smaller number of people there was no possibility of you being in contact with another SARS patient There was no possibility of you being diagnosed with SARS unless you were a doctor in a hospital or something very unusual happened And so the epidemic dried up in a purely definitional way. There might have been tens of thousands of people out there who would have been positive on the SARS test, in fact I'm sure they were but they weren't being tested because they didn't have symptoms or if they did have symptoms they hadn't had contact with another patient but the definitions for

1:02:46 The new coronavirus have put far too much weight on the test. And so we're having asymptomatic people being diagnosed as Coronavirus victims Because for example if grandpa goes to the hospital pneumonia then they test his whole family and two of his family just positive now you got two more cases so you can see how, definition who you test and how are you define a positive case has a huge impact on the number of cases that you have. And this is why Italy, Japan and Korea self-generated epidemics. And so far America and Canada are more conservative with their testing. And therefore we don't have enough cases if Canada says or United States says anybody who has a cough can get tested. And if you test positive, we're going to test your whole family then we will have an epidemic of thousands of cases more in an instant.

1:03:45 Yes i am worried about that very same thing i think about people who have domestic situation they call the police the please show up and accidentally shoot someone like what you don't call the police if you don't engage the system then it's not going to accidentally kill u and i feel similarly about this like, i dont wanna get tested because of my test positive than i've given up control in my life yes. That's, you know it's a big thing. We've given up a lot of civil liberties willingly and I don't know where it's gonna go from here. Right now in my city, in Canada more and more things are shut down like schools are shut down universities are shut down people are kind of enjoying the holiday but they also have no income anymore

1:04:40 And, you know a lot of people can go a few weeks. Some people can go a few months but nobody except the very rich could go a year without income so as every week proceeds the pain is going to get more and more and the government is in both countries printing money to give money to people who aren't producing anything economically like I don't know how long...I'm not a big capitalist but I don't see how this Can sustain itself we destroy the economy and then we pay people money to go buy food but you know a lot of people are not working so doesn't the economy contract dramatically when you do that.

1:05:27 Right. And if this is all based on nothing, basically which is the premise that you've laid out then that seems to be one of the goals maybe the definition or the test will change to get fewer results when the agenda is achieved and the agenda seems to be economic devastation? Well in Toronto which was... Toronto was kind of an incubator because The probably the economic impact was greatest there i mean it was weird that the rest of canada didn't really have any cases but in toronto it was took over the city just like now they closed. The others that close restaurants they cancelled all conferences you know flights stopped coming in and out of toronto, the economic impact on tron was devastating but of course you know trying a small part of

1:06:19 It doesn't like to think of it that way but it's a small part of the Canadian economy so it was able to recover pretty quickly. But I wonder if at some point there were some politicians who said privately, to these medical officials If we don't end this in a week the economy of Toronto is going to collapse So I'm not telling you what to do but it sure would be nice if it was over soon and then boom, it was over. It's very suddenly and you know I think that it might have been a message like under no circumstances test somebody who does not fit the diagnostic criteria because at first it might have been kind of loosey goosey. It's like tighten everything up

1:07:07 Nobody's being tested. Nobody is positive, there is no more epidemic. Miracle and then everything went back to normal and people forgot about it but now its the whole world that's being driven into the ground like Toronto was and it's not going to recover so quickly Right? It just so weird to think that it's that simple Well I mean these...these people Tests, the word test is very powerful because first of all if I say I got a test for coronavirus you think okay it's either positive or negative. That's not true

1:07:47 You you think that there's a single test right i take a blood sample put it in the machine i get my positive or negative even though we know now it's not binary. But many cases is an algorithm you might be tested two three times and then depending on where are, you know to positive negative might be handled in different ways in some places you might be retested in some places they say well two out of three good enough your positive So it very much depends on those rules. In China, originally the rule for a confirmed case of coronavirus was solely a positive coronavirus test in mid February they changed the definition so you needed to have symptoms and contact with another patient and a positive coronavirus test and look what happened

1:08:39 the number of cases in China dropped. Well, how much of that was due to a change in the definition of a confirmed case? Did the Chinese kind of look at SARS and go wait a minute like we're never going to end this if we don't do something and I think you know the Chinese government like all governments where this is particularly important in China does not want to be embarrassed so if Party president or whoever the party chairman says, you know We got a fight to the death with the coronavirus You're not going to turn around and say well actually the test we were using was a piece of shit Yeah Right like what you're gonna do is you're gonna quietly change The book that that controls testing in the diagnosis And then the cases go away and now the party chairman can stand up and says, you know with the great

1:09:32 assistance of the wonderful Chinese medical community and police and army, all the good people. We conquered this! It was a great victory for our country. And every country whether it's Donald Trump or Justin Trudeau they're all going to stand up and praise themselves if things work out but I'm not sure that way we are going that they are not gonna end losing their jobs over this because they might not be able to get themselves out. I think the Chinese government is much more, um,

1:10:09 Because it's not elected, there is a lot of bureaucrats who are used to analyze this. Do the numbers on this right? Do report very dry bureaucratic people they don't run on emotions and I think they're better suited for a situation where it's like we need to fix this. It's like how would we fix it? What if we change the definition We could end this. Whereas in Canada, you got all this rhetoric and the United States we're going to beat this. We got the best health officials in the world. We're gonna get over this everybody go home for 18 months and uh...we'll do this

1:10:50 Yeah and i hope people ask more questions when the panic has subsided. Are there other ways we can maybe compare and contrast this with SARS given the fact that a lot of data came out afterward because they're just trying to treat people left and right in the midst of the panic, and then when the dust clears you can look at that data and thats where you get the verifiable evidence that it wasn't as bad as they said it was and some of the deaths are caused by drugs? The treatments are almost parallel. Corticosteroids, intubation and antiviral drugs now we've added chloroquine which I don't think is an anti-malaria drug not antiviral but you know various drugs very similar drugs to in SARS plus intubation all of steroids intubation and antiviral drugs were associated with harm

1:11:47 infectivity. There was a wonderful accidental experiment that occurred in China, I mean this paper in an obscure journal even had little map so they had an AIDS ward in a hospital in Guangdong the epicenter of SARS and it had some empty space So guess who they put onto the ward with the AIDS patients? The SARS patients! You have immunosuppressed people AIDS patients. And you have the most infectious virus then known to man, SARS. The paper notes that although SARS patients and AIDS patients were not put in the same room they were free to mingle in kind of a living room at the end of the hallway

1:12:39 And that there was a hallway for the staff in between the two sides of the floor, which had open windows. So there's free airflow and in one case an AIDS patient was accidentally roomed with this SARS patients. And so here is the question how many AIDS patients these immunosuppressed people who actually were immuno suppressed they had opportunistic infections. They had signs of immunosuppression, that's why they were in the hospital. How many of them got SARS? And the answer is zero! So here you've got the most infectious disease in the world and it can't infect AIDS patients. Now obviously if you proposed to do this experiment that would be the most unethical thing in the world but they accidentally did the experiment and you gotta ask was SARS really infectious

1:13:28 So interesting and so you've looked at stars HIV aids west nile and several others does this always seem to be a similar story is just an operation that the medical system runs every so often. Well i think it's kind of like with sugar which i think was more of a conspiracy You know, some people in the say the 1950s are starting to get concerned about diseases related to sugar cardiovascular diseases dental problems things like that. So the sugar manufacturers changed the subject let's say it's a high fat diet that is problem Let's focus on fats take the pressure off sugar

1:14:11 And it worked for about 50 years. I mean, now people are realizing that the low-fat diet is a crock and that sugar is very harmful substance but it was way of diverting attention so let's say you're manufacturing chemicals in St Louis Missouri Monsanto and there's people getting sick with what's now called St Louis Encephalitis well do you want to admit that might be The emissions from your productions of pesticides or would you rather it was a virus and maybe if you're a pesticide manufacturer, you could just like pay some. Virus researchers to look into these things because you can guarantee that if you put a virus researcher on the trail of a disease they will come back with the cause being a virus

1:15:06 I mean, they say if your only tool is a hammer everything looks like a nail. Well if you're a virologist, If your only disease cause is a virus then every disease is caused by a virus that's how they think Right, as opposed to pollution in the environment which seems to have happened several times in these pockets. Even Legionnaires disease is called that because the legionnaires were meeting at a particular place and it seems like they got respiratory infections from toxins in the air conditioner of this place or something similar to that. Yeah so blame it on bacteria yes

1:15:46 And let's ask some more of the serious questions. Do you have advice for people? This is where it gets dicey, but I want everyone to think for themselves But I guess there's got to be some things you would recommend Well, I think...I would hope that people would read my paper I know it's not easy because it's 20 pages long but It's- I've tried to write in as non technical a way as I can So I think anybody can read it and think about it. And I have links to all the references that I have, medical papers, newspaper articles et cetera et cetera. And then I guess talk to other people like we're in a position where we don't really have much power. I know that if I write to a politician in Canada or I write to a medical official

1:16:43 My email will be discarded they will say i'm too busy for this crap i got an epidemic to fight. But there may be people out there who have a little bit of influence personal influence with politicians you could say no wait a minute, there's some things about this that don't add up and the way we're going is never gonna get ended unless we make some changes I mean obviously you have to be somewhat respectful socially But I mean, I think people should push back on ridiculous rules that are impinging on their life and seem to have no purpose except making people feel pain. So they feel like they're contributing to some grand project. Um, I don't know. Certainly if people read a local newspaper article

1:17:37 that bears on what I've written, i'd be very happy to hear from people. For example if you hear about a case of somebody who tested positive but had no travel history and no contact with another patient and it's published in some little local newspaper? I would love to hear about that because I have got a list of those cases in appendix of my article And those cases when you look at them You know it's starting to look like at least some people can test positive without actually being infected and how do we know how many of those people there are. And there is a lot of talk about vaccine and a lot of paranoid people will happily inject themselves with it does the vaccine element concern you? Well I don't think they're gonna be able to get away with this because they don't think they can keep this going long enough

1:18:32 I mean that's what happened with SARS is everybody was talking about a vaccine and specific drugs but the disease was over so quickly because of the drastic impact on the economy. It was over so quickly that they never really had time to test any drugs and certainly didn't have time to develop and test a vaccine I don't think they can keep this going for two years. There's gonna be people starving to death on the streets if they try to keep the economy suppressed for 2 years in order to achieve an unachievable goal So, i think they've overreached this time by insisting that we all stay away from each other and not go to work in many cases And not have any income and have our children at home instead of school

1:19:22 Like I say, the first couple of weeks it's kind of like a little holiday. You can amuse your children and go to the park but then when they say well you can't go outside, can't go to the park um you know you can only go to the grocery store once a week there's gonna be a lot of problems domestic violence will probably go up suicides will go up what about people who live alone? And maybe they're only their only joy in the week was going to bingo or something and now they can't do that i talked to my ninety year old mother who whose social events are she volunteers at the hospital she's been told just a way and she volunteers it museum says two days of the week so today is the week she gets out of the house she spends her day with other people. And that's taken away from her

1:20:16 So there's a lot of people who are going to be very lonely. They might end up drinking too much, drug abuse. We could see an increase in deaths from unexpected consequences of this grand experiment What's just interesting because i have had guests in the past talk about. The fact that the baby boomers are dying off and the economy is very overtaxed by them and then this happens it's like well who's the most susceptible to this process i don't know what's interesting timing yes i don't know

1:21:02 I mean, I think social media has had a big impact. Uh, things can get blown out of proportion. I was, you know, my mother is born in the 1920s and I said, you know if in the 1920s something like this happened in China, you would read about it in the newspapers a week or two after it happens. Yeah. Right? Major epidemic in China and nobody would have Thought anything of it except oh that's terrible or something like that right but now its like oh my god we have flights to china maybe its gonna come kill us all so we have the information and we also have the transportation connectivity

1:21:44 gives people this fear that these things are going to rocket around the world and kill millions of people. Yes, it's just interesting but this has added a lot of clarity thanks for sticking around for a little while This is not a hard pill for me to swallow and maybe even not for a lot of listeners but many of our friends and family are already conditioned think about us as fringe conspiracy minded people Do you have any advice on how we should approach our skeptical friends and family with this information? We can give them your paper, but I don't know if that's going to do it. There is a lot of propaganda we're working against. Is there anything we can do to fight this all-encompassing narrative?"

1:22:23 Well that's really all you can do is like read the paper and absorb a few of the major points. And if you're in a discussion then you can contradict some other ridiculous things that people say, like somebody sent you know viral article around today it was just like biological propaganda it was full false claims, you know that we know that the social distancing is going to work. And we know how many people get infected by every patient. I mean, that by itself doesn't really make any sense that you would be able to put a number on the number of people who would be infected from one person and a disease because the environment that you're in obviously makes a big difference

1:23:15 you know, how you interact with people. I mean is this person your lover? Your children? Employees? Schoolmates? Like how you interact is very different so you wouldn't expect it to be similar but they've come up with this number R0 and and I think if there's one group of people that we should just take out back and shoot put them out of their misery and that's the mathematical modelers And there was a paper in the journal called Stat by a guy named Ioannidis. Ioannidis is a mainstream educated high profile critic of medicine, but he still is within the mainstream medical system that he's criticized a lot of things and he's criticizing this reaction based on highly unreliable numbers

1:24:08 So you get these mathematical modelers and they run some numbers, and they say wow if R0 is 3.5 and we don't have social distancing the entire population of America could be wiped out I mean you can come up with anything you want in a mathematical model but mathematical modellers tend not to think about the quality their numbers And in this case like what's that death rate? You know we know more about the number people who are coronavirus positive who died But first of all, we don't know that they all died of coronavirus. Like in Italy maybe 99% of them died of something else so that divides your death rate by a factor of 100. That's pretty significant and then there may be many more people who are coronavirus test positive who have no symptoms and that reduces the death rate as well

1:25:02 So what we have is these high death rates that are meaningless numbers. People throw them into a mathematical model, make a bunch of assumptions based on whatever they want to make assumptions on and they come out with the most scary thing they want and I see this with the press like if somebody tries to push back maybe we're doing too much testing maybe most people would survive unscathed by this virus if you try Sort of sprinkle a little water on the flames they just get really angry at you they want it to be worse and worse and worse right but there gonna be only people left with jobs until they find out that there's nobody to pay them.

1:25:42 Yes, and you're making great points. And outside of people who get tested and then die in the process of treatment it's not like we're looking out and seeing people just drop dead We're not seeing cars run off the road because The driver of it just died of Corona flu Like we are not dropping like flies So...we should not panic That is important to remember Outside of people engaging with this system there doesn't seem to be a lot of issues Well, another issue I think you know we take you know i think one of the big arguments is that I don't care about false positives throw a guy in quarantine for two weeks. Big deal well I've addressed some of those issues but another thing that were doing is disinfecting everything with disinfectants or chemicals they're not good for us

1:26:32 And I read, you know there's lots of articles on exposure to chemicals by children increases rates of asthma and childhood cancer and all kinds other things. So we're now getting used to a situation where maybe the classroom gets sprayed with disinfectant every day whereas maybe in the past it would get washed at the end of the term and the floor would get washed once a day or something like that right? So we're exposing ourselves and particularly our children to a lot more chemicals which could have big consequences.

1:27:10 down the road. We're all rubbing sanitizer on our hands and you know, it's mostly alcohol maybe that's relatively innocuous but it has like perfumes in it and things like that that are probably not so innocuous and they wouldn't matter if we did it once a month but we're doing it 10-20 times a day yes so much Purell out there is scary yeah I'd like what's going to do to um you know skin disorders and then breathing in all of these scents and all these chemicals. How's that going to change the rate of other respiratory diseases? Yes, I know we're wrapping this up but i have the same thought about being quarantined for say 30 days where people are covering themselves with these chemicals you're putting yourself into a hermetically sealed home You're not getting sunlight, you're sitting only under artificial light

1:28:07 And the food you're eating that you're getting at the grocery store probably isn't the fresh produce because you're looking for that stuff. That's going to last, which is all the corporate junk food now you're living on chips and then they come in with a test and now your immune system is so low your testing positive, you're getting the treatment I have a lot of concerns. Well, a funny thing when it first was mostly in China, I was talking to a friend who lives in China In one of those large apartment blocks and if you never been to china just can't imagine how big these things are it you know like they go for a couple city blocks and then there may be ten stories high so there's a lot of very small apartments so.

1:28:50 Everybody went home and they opened the windows because you can't survive in a chinese apartment without the window being open because you got this small area your cooking it your sleeping at if you close the windows within two days it would be on level so i said, show you have. You know three apartments close to you beneath you three partners close to above you when you have one to the left of one to the right and all those people are coming to the window and their breathing out in the droplets are coming into the air but you're not allowed to walk on the street because you might pick up droplets. It's like if there's droplets of coronavirus, they're coming out of that person who is sick window and into yours. So how could it be that they told you not to walk on the street and yet your really close to people? You can't see them cause they were in other apartments but they're right next to you. Great points. And man this has been

1:29:48 Really great. You've made me feel so much better in a lot of ways worse than some others, but it's all good And I really hope people check out your presentation Rethink All Viruses? I hope they read your coronavirus paper and I hope we can do this again sometime and talk more about virology versus environmental toxins and just the infectious disease theory overall in some of those older cases Of course now we have an immediate problem, but those older cases are also helpful for the overall theory. Right HIV is a great one that I know a lot about polio West Nile virus. I also studied mad cow disease which is not viral but it's blamed on prions as well and so be happy to talk about any of those

1:30:36 And those all should be in my book, which one of these days I'll get finished. Awesome and as for yourself definitely tell people give them your URL again and tell them about the podcast and what they need to know about getting more David Crowe. Okay so the podcast is called The Infectious Myth and it's on prn dot fm So i believe the url is infectiousmyth.podbean.com That's one way to get it I also have a website, theinfectiousmyth.com and on that website you can get my coronavirus paper and you can get my SARS chapter and there's some other information

1:31:19 And when this is all over, I'll be moving on to make other chapters public. I've decided that there's really ... I'm never going to make money on a book like this so I should as the public service make the chapters available as they're ready or even in draft form because I think the information is really important and the feedback I'm getting from some scientists who I respect who Who've never read my say SARS chapter before is like wow this is an incredible amount of research and I didn't know so many of these things. And just like with my coronavirus paper, I don't make claims

1:31:58 that don't have a reference. I certainly ask questions in places where we don't have enough information, but if I say there are people who are coronavirus positive with no possible contact with other people well, I have the receipts. Nice and in terms of support do you have a Patreon or anything like that? Yes Infectious Myth on Patreon and LiberaPay And that would really help because if I could do this full time, my book would get written a lot quicker. And you know, my radio show probably would be better like for example with this Chinese paper, I'm getting it translated by a friend but I think if I had a Patreon campaign that gave me substantial amounts of money, I would have just paid the 18 cents per character

1:32:53 that's necessary to get technical Chinese translated, but I can't afford to do that. i hear you man i hear you we gotta support the independent journalists out there and even though these are troubled times it's an important piece of the puzzle don't wanna have just mainstream news sources so lord help us yes i commend what you're doing and i hope people do reach out i expect to get a lot more interview request after this we have a decent following but maybe when were in less immediate times will do this in the future but until then keep fighting the good fight Thank you so much for having me on. I appreciate you helping spread the word. You got it, man! Take care. Well how about that? Pretty pretty pretty and pretty interesting like i said in the joint session and i think in my own coronavirus mini podcast the other day that i'm following David Crowe and John Rapoport on this. John's putting out stuff every day

1:33:58 Another name I heard, now i haven't digested it yet but im hearing good things similar things about a Dr. Shiva Ayyadurai? Im probably butchering the name but if you were to look up Dr. Shiva and Tinfoil Hat You would find it because people have been sending me this link He's been on Tinfoil hat with Sam Tripoli recently And that is next on my list of things to check out And even though David does go pretty hard on contagiousness and virus theory overall, he made a very important point in that his arguments for coronavirus and his paper on it don't hinge on his overall skepticism of the infectious myth. Which also, come on branding wise? What a great double entendre! Touche sir

1:34:48 But seriously, his coronavirus arguments are based on the coronavirus data and the details about the tests and treatment. And because of that as he said even though he doesn't think there's a virus issue here, his paper does not hinge on that either. He can still make this same case about false positives, non-binary tests the riskiness of the medications, and the fact that we're looking at a component of RNA that might not relate to illness at all. Hence so many asymptomatic people." So I do think this is really interesting information-based solid logical reasoning! I don't really see what i could be missing here

1:35:34 But you also probably noticed this interview is about 90 minutes, about an hour and a half, little longer. And it has no plus portion honestly I could have stretched it and divided up but I didn't really want to do that with this topic and this material I think it's worthy of a separate bonus show and i wanted to make the full case because the stakes are so high, panic is real. We're doing all of this over a mild virus that some people might get yet the economic impact is hitting almost everyone! I don't even know how many states have ordered restaurants and businesses to close at this point

1:36:14 But the people whose lives are threatened by this virus, even by the official numbers does not compare to the people affected by these so-called safety measures. So no plus show today I do think this is just too critical and i just hope to win you over with the rest of the shows I do And it's a bit scary right because we're in the eye of the storm with this thing and to confront it so directly This is where people run into problems Maybe we should have done a bigfoot show But I'm gonna keep from being too, too vocal coming from this perspective and my unimportant and unnecessarily risky tweets. And i want to be careful how i title these episodes and i also want to try to get people the information i think is worth hearing and as Ross Ben said just fly under the radar

1:37:05 i get a lot of messages from people who've been listening along time and they tend to say their rider die with me sometimes in all of that dedication but it is what keeps me sane when we do hit something that i get a little anxious over would you wanna hit publish on this episode no it's. Sort of a trust thing i bring people here to break down very controversial opinions as long as i can and i trust that. If i hit some sort of digital blockade that you won't leave me hang in there, i wanna talk to dramatically or any sort of defeatist terms but this seems like it argument to try and make right now and we're bringing david crowe here to make it anyway i hope he got something out of it

1:37:57 Big thanks to him for his time and commitment. Check out his podcast, The Infectious Myth and his paper and previous presentation, Rethink All Viruses! Those two things will be in the show notes. Follow up with that stuff. Make up your own mind. The stakes are too high not to. Keep the conversation going. Don't let them shut us down for asking questions, follow the data and keep an open mind. And maybe sign up for PLUS if you're able? I want to be able to do this for a long time! The higher side chats dot com love you guys thanks for listening i'll see on the other side your move panic propaganda pushers technocratic takeover attempters and agents of the big agenda your fucking

1:38:44 Sweet dreams to the elite We're calling out on THC Uncovering secrets and conspiracies Everybody's looking for something Some of them want to use you Some of them want to get used by you Some of them want to abuse you Some of them want to be abused Sweet themes on DHC Who the hell could disagree? We know the rabbit hole goes deep Everybody's digging for something

1:39:43 Some of them want to use you. Some of them want to get used by you.