Darren Schaefer | DB Cooper, The Cooper Vortex, & The CIA

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00:51 Which means you'll unfortunately never hear my voice again. 1930s President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed the nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the fireside chats His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times. I'm Greg Carlwood These are the Higher Side Chats. Alright, higher side chatters strap yourself in for another ride through this strange and mysterious world from sunny San Diego I'm Greg Carlwood and over the years we've talked about everything from celestial holograms in the Saturn-Moon matrix to the history of false flags and dark experimentation on unsuspecting people And clearly some of these topics are more serious than others though many of them do require a healthy dose of speculation

01:56 What do the aliens and spirits really want? How does Bigfoot get back to the inner earth so quickly, and can I really think myself into a dream reality. And while speculation isn't off the table entirely today we are going to focus in on a specific event that no doubt happened but just don't yet know who pulled it off I'm talking about the intriguing case of DB Cooper, the mysterious man who pulled off the only unsolved skyjacking in aviation history on the day before Thanksgiving in 1971. For those who are unfamiliar after handing a stewardess a note that he had a bomb and of course drinking a little drink and smoking a little smoke many things transpired but his demands for two hundred thousand in ransom were granted and he parachuted from the plane to an uncertain fate

02:42 He's been called an anti-James Bond, a gentleman thief and a legendary pirate of the skies. But what he hasn't been called is his real name because despite an extensive manhunt and the best efforts of the FBI DB Cooper remains unidentified Well today just before the big event known as cooper con in portland on the weekend of november twenty second word joined by one of the leading authorities on the dvd cooper case darren shaffer host of a seriously great podcast the cooper vortex. where each episode he interviews a witness or researcher who thinks they've solved the mystery and lets them make their best case without much resistance or interruption. An approach to podcasting that I can certainly appreciate So, without further ado The Cooper Capercaster himself Darren welcome to the higher side

03:32 Thanks for having me on greg i appreciate that the hell of an introduction thanks man i try and i appreciate you being here i think this is gonna be really interesting sometimes things can get pretty heavy around here but this is a nice light break from all that. When you would first reached out to me even though i never done a dvd cooper episode. I wasn't sure we could fill the full two hours and keep it interesting because the story of the events can be summed up rather quickly, but then i checked out your podcast the cooper vortex and realize that you've done over thirty hours on it so surely we can make a compelling too

04:09 But I do love the way you do the show it's not far off from what i try to bring people on to make their best case and leave that of course on your show is people who think they know what happened or who dv cooper was. And i got sucked in, you'll have a guest who's convinced db cooper was there uncle or someone who live next door guy in the woods that they think with him others thing he was also does killer and some say it wasn't inside job There's a long list of suspects and now i just wanna know you got me sucked into it but let me ask the question that, you often asked first how did you get interested in the case had to get sucked into the cooper vortex as it were. I was living in woodland washington at the time which is just right outside the drop zone and so is this a local story something i was interested in a buncha people

05:02 Followed it locally he's kind of a folk hero and then my wife got me this book sky jack is a gift by jeffrey gray. And i had on my shelf for awhile eventually read in that book towards the end of it, what are the guys you talking to said stop talking to me because gonna write his own book so i looked on amazon not book was already out by then so i grabbed that one into the blast robert levins And I just fell into the rabbit hole of DB Cooper at that point. I was so fascinated by the fact that there is no real evidence for DB Cooper, for Dan Cooper aside from what happened on that plane but there are a tonne of different suspects who seem pretty plausible and a huge community of people trying to solve this case on their own

05:58 Yeah i mean you really gone down this rabbit hole for sure you read twelve or thirteen books on it at this point interviewed so many people, it's impressive and. So i'm sure the story is familiar to some people and i really just try to give the bare bones bullet points there in the intro because its best have u walk us through it give us that traditional play by play of events that were all on the same page then we can dig into some those details Absolutely so thanksgiving eve november twenty fourth nineteen seventy one a guy in a black raincoat or trench coat business suit carrying an attache case briefcase, buys the ticket at the portland international airport one way to seattle it's twenty dollars he gives his name is dan cooper on the ticket.

06:49 The plane he asked specifically if the plane is a seven twenty seven they confirm that you want to last aboard the planes it's in the back of the plan shortly after takeoff around three o'clock two forty five pm. He can't stewardess florence shafner and note, She assumes it's just another business man hitting on her she is a good looking gal so she puts the note in your pocket doesn't look at it. And walks away he sees her do this comes back and he's like ma'am you might want to take a look at that no I have a bomb, so she takes a note up to the pilots he wants two hundred thousand dollars and four parachutes before they land in seattle so the plane lands in seattle gets his money in the parachute

07:40 bring it back on the plane plane takes off at approximately seven o'clock seven forty five and then he. Ask for the very specific flight instructions may take off he wants to plan to fly, add its minimum stall speed which is just over a hundred knots about one hundred twenty miles an hour He wants the landing gear down, he wants the flap set to 15 degrees and the plane to stay at approximately 10 000 feet with the cabin depressurized.

08:17 And then he asks for the plane to take off with the rear air stairs down the plane. He hijacked that 727 was one of just I believe two at a time That had a rear air stairs or an after stairs that would lower So if this plane flew into a small airport, they didn't want to have one of those stair trucks The passengers could board and D plane using those airstairs the pilots weren't even sure if the plane could take off with the stairs down they said it was unsafe he argued with them that it was perfectly safe but is not gonna get into a hill just lower the stairs in flight. And then the pilot's contact air traffic control cuz there not even sure if, the plane can fly with the stairs down is it gonna cause the plane to crash they're not sure

09:10 Air traffic control is sure either so they reached out to boeing can this plane fly with the rear air stairs down and going says yes we've actually done some testing and done some other. Things that it isn't a problem playing comply like that so he knew more about this plane in the pilots flying amazing, show me as parachutes money the plan takes off And he asked the stewardess to go back up into the cockpit and then sometime in between seattle and reno he jumps out of the plane never to be seen again. Yes it is a really impressive and fun story and one details i think we might have left out there is, when the plane stopped in seattle that's when all the other passengers got off right i mean they didn't even know they're being hijacked

10:02 That's correct none of them knew they were being hijacked until they got off the plane and then course the FBI is waiting there. And they wanna know you know who standing there and who's not because that means that person is one that's hijacking it, and they have a name dan cooper it goes out on ap wire immediately And there's some mix up there is a low level criminal i think it was convicted of armed robbery by the name of db cooper in portland and because that makes up just went out to the press as dvd cooper instead of dan cooper and i believe the FBI never corrected that. As part of their investigation so if somebody said me i gave my name is dvd cooper they would know how that wasn't true right right hmm,

10:53 Yes and he was so meticulous with the details in the planning one detail i heard is that you had to staff close all windows to avoid snipers on a plane you know during the part where they were landed. And it was also apparently quite nice and quiet accommodating to the staff i heard that he requested even have meals for the flight staff when they landed in seattle is accurate, That's correct yeah i asked for meals for the crew tina muck low and florence shafner both said that he was polite and cordial. And that he never appeared nervous is something that i've always been really fascinated by you know they gave his age as approximately mid to late forties which, a man not agent would be unusual for him to commit such a bold daring crime jumping out of an airplane

11:50 And generally not doing wild insane crimes like that you know be something you expect from someone that was twenty two not someone who is forty seven. Indeed and some of the most interesting details to me kinda what we're talking about are, his behavior on the plane and his actions they say as you mentioned he was calm and pretty nice of course i did drink a little drinking smoke a little smoke on there what more can you tell us about those limited interactions in behaviors that help us to get a sense of the guy.

12:28 Will the only thing that's really known about him is you know what team of said because she sits next to on the plane for about five hours i mean she sat there she lit his cigarettes which i just love that part of the story and after he hands the note off to the first stewardess, For whatever reason a different stewardess kind of continues the interaction with him but after that first note he put sunglasses on which i just love that and if you look at. The iconic sketches dv cooper there is some glasses on them which is just great so it's sitting in a business hijacking the plane wearing sunglasses, have your stewardess light his cigarettes and drinking bourbon yeah

13:16 And that was another detail in terms of his character and. His thoughtfulness of the staff is apparently he paid for the bourbon and try to give the change to that story even though he's also hijacking a plane for two hundred thousand dollars, Yeah i tried to tip them for the drinks which they refused and said they can accept gratuity. And then when he got the money on the plane is going through it and the stewardess said that he appeared excited you know its two hundred thousand dollars in twenties, In a bag that she brings on the plane to him and she remarks about wow thats a lot of money he grabs you bundles in hands it to her, can she says i'm sorry i cant accept gratuity again making your joke about.

14:05 With his drinks and what not but that part is so fast he's risking his life to do this but seems to not care that much about the money yeah that is an interesting detail that was gonna be one of the questions i was gonna get you later but let's just ask it now do you think he had other motivations obviously money is a huge motivation but was there something else there. I think there was i mean it depends on what narrative what book you read who's there your, you're into some people say the money wasn't about the money at all other people say obviously was hijacking a plane for that money.

14:42 He does seem to have kind of a cavalier attitude about it maybe he didn't need all that two hundred thousand dollars is something like that much today but its approximately a million and a quarter. Adjusted for inflation so its a lot of money right i mean if i, rob the bank or hijack the plane for a million dollars i don't know that i would be giving you away at the time I don't see myself doing that. Yes, i agree and tell me if this is true but i heard at one point a flight attendant had asked why their airline and he said i don't have a grudge against your airline i just have a grudge exactly i don't have a grudge against your airline miss i just have a grudge hmm that's awesome then obviously the details are sparse but is there any other dialogue that we know about

15:33 Not really i mean we only have what. What team of clothes that she talked to him about was few and far between he asked you how does notes back, did he was relaying back and forth with the cockpit in the only real evidence left on the plane when you jumped out was a black clip-on tie. Right that's a little strange you left his black clip-on tie but requested is no it's back and then they had the cigarette butts And they also had the whiskey glass but that was mixed in with other glasses cuz this is nineteen seventy one and there are big on collecting dna type of evidence right. Yeah cigarette butts theres a lot of discussion about that,

16:18 A lot of people have said over the years that they were lost in the evidence handoff between Reno and Portland and Seattle, and local police FBI. But I've actually seen an FBI document since the FBI is releasing a lot of this now where the instruction was to examine the cigarette butts for evidence and then throw them away which obviously today they're insanely valuable because there be great dna on nineteen seventy one there wasn't that thought so unfortunately they probably were thrown away. Right right and i watched the history channel peace on this and the FBI agent that interviewed said that he used filthy language but i had not heard anywhere else you does that jive with what you've heard, that's something that ralph himmelsbach

17:12 Has said you know he said that he's a sleazy scummy criminal they use foul language like you said what the really isn't any evidence of that. And i'm not sure why he is he said that a couple people have theories as to why ralph has gone on like that but he is an fbi agent talking about a man who committed crime right, Yeah he's already predisposed to villain eyes this person yeah and it is interesting that in nest no one was hurt. Right the only person who was possibly heard in this was dan cooper himself and that is what makes me side more with these stewardesses accounts are not the FBI agent because if you really want some sleazy,

18:03 Loudmouth criminal it would be hard for everyone on the plane to not know they were hijacked clearly there was some. Smoothness to his operation to keep the stewardess calm to keep people from being in no really, the facts that i don't about the case seem to suggest that he was pretty smooth guy absolutely i mean i really believe that this was what's planned so thoroughly and so well And orchestrated essentially perfectly like you were saying no one on the plane new they were being hijacked everyone was calm and then immediately after the stewardesses work home and said that he was polite he didn't appear nervous.

18:51 When it came to the things that he had he did have this apparent bomb in a briefcase and we can talk about maybe that was real or not but you also had a brown paper bag is that correct. That is correct brown paper bag of her to call the canvas sack i've heard people say it was green but he did have some other. Bag with him and of course nobody knows what's in that you can only speculate maybe it was gloves and goggles or jump boots because your jumping out of a plane everyone said he was wearing loafers which would be ideal footwear

19:29 You jumping out of a plane at ten thousand feet hundred and twenty miles an hour into the woods yes. I heard you bring up another podcast that if you had a bad it was probably some kind of items for the job gloves and goggles because experts say its very difficult to do without that and let's get into that question the big one of survive ability. Jump out back in aircraft mid flight in the rain in the dark with none of this stuff is, Not easy how do you sleep it's a lot more fun to think that the guy lived and i know you've interviewed people on both sides of this question but what are your thoughts were arguments for an against. I believe that he survived the job based on what i read never thing and also its much more fun to believe they survived the jump marty andrade is got a book finding dv cooper,

20:27 Where he does a fantastic job essentially in my opinion proving that the jump was survival he goes through a bunch of world war two injections when planes are being shot down. And the survivability of those dudes and they're jumping out in their plane was shot down there jumping out in as bad or worse conditions under immense pressure. And they had very most of them very little parachute training maybe one practice jump and some of them may be only classroom training on jumping out of a plane,

21:04 And in his book it's over ninety percent survivability of those dudes and db cooper was jumping out under better conditions than the most of those jobs he knew who is gonna be jumping standing on the rear air stairs, the plane wasn't shot down or anything like that but the FBI has said they believe you died in a job. What probably cuz they couldn't figure out who did so easier for them to say that yes Yes and he seems to have known quite a bit about the conditions in which to jump and apparently even parachute. Came with instructions any said that you would not need those but i have heard that the particular parachute, did he requested or that it was given i'm not sure if people requested this model but it was apparently hard to use your maybe it would be a clue to his previous experience can tell us about the parachute

22:03 Yeah i think that's important so he asks for four parachutes to front shoots into back shoes which seems like industry jargon to me you know or. Like it was trained in that terminology and he is given a military parachute and civilian parachute the civilian parachute is more sport one more modern it's terrible, When the military shoot is not and he chooses to use the military shoe. And some people will say well that's proof that you didn't know what he was doing because she should have chosen, that sport shoot it was a better design more modern and like i said steerable

22:49 But i also heard that it was that was the correct choice because that sport shoot could not have handled opening at that speed and could've been shredded to pieces. And the military chute he chose, I've heard it called the pit bull of parachutes is just absolutely tough and could have done this no problem And she's going to the cockpit looks back to see him putting on that military parachute and says it looks like he had done it many times before. I've seen a couple versions of that same parachute and would be difficult if you did not know how to put it on it wouldn't be something that without any training or experience just very comfortably put on and are good to go right now very intuitive

23:43 And let's talk about the bomb because this is a big aspect of it and also kind of speaks to his character and if he was willing to hurt people or not but. What do i want your guest seem to think when it comes to being real are not thinking that i'm thinking not as well, i believe everyone interviewed said that the bomb wasn't real except for the foreman who say that it was barb daton Who pulled it off she told them that the bomb was real because i don't do anything half ass. Right that's one of several people who tried to claim that this was them and, that's really exciting i heard you on previous podcast said that i think thats the particular theory that u like most or where are you at place your bed is that right?

24:37 I would be worried place my bet but it is a theory that i definitely like me db cooper's transgender how was that not great right. i pull this off of wikipedia cuz i knew barbara dayton would come up but it says dating underwent gender reassignment surgery and nineteen sixty nine and adopted the name barbara claiming to have staged the cooper hijacking two years earlier disguised as a man, get back at the airline industry in the fba who's insurmountable rules and conditions had prevented her from becoming an airline pilot.

25:13 Dayton said that the ransom money was hidden in a cistern near Woodburn, a suburb area of Portland. But eventually recanted the entire story after learning that hijacking charges could still be brought and the FBI apparently has never commented publicly on her and she died in 2002 is there anything more to tell people about Barbara Dayton? And why she's such a character Barbara did is definitely a character one of the favorite things that formance told me about that is they never were able to solve the dv cooper case because they were looking for a man. Yeah i mean it's compelling and interesting when pressure and there's definitely others that i think are fascinating too but i guess just stick with the story itself a little bit more,

26:02 What is your about for parachutes some people have suggested i think it would be quite smart to ask for four instead of just one because they could sabotage that water, i guess that's all they can do to it does not really tracking devices at the time perhaps but is that you're working theory on why he would suggest for a hundred percent. If you asked for just one parachute the FBI and sabotage that shit And asking for multiple they won't because if he takes a hostage with him now the FBI just murdered someone so asking for multiple parachutes is really the way to go.

26:43 And in your episode about it possibly being an inside job your guest robert levins brought up a compelling idea about the bomb that maybe the sticks were rolls of quarters and red tape because based on the ambiguity of where you might land you might need to get to pay phone, and call your pickup guy if there was one i mean this is nineteen seventy one yeah that is interesting although i'm not sure why he would do roles of orders cuz they be really heavy. That's fair i mean i don't know if they be too heavy to handle the it's gotta be something but you mean he jumped with that bomb so. If i was planning this i would want it to be that have the ad also heard people say they were players and could be used, no control about the plane to kind of gauge which way the winds blowing i guess what i mean really we dont know he took a with them

27:39 Yes and we can't that's probably an indication i guess it doesn't really indicate if its real or not but if it was definitely. Fake i would want to keep that to myself but also think if he's gonna plan this so meticulously do you really wanna real bomb being in the mix of all this is dangerous enough, I agree i don't see a need for to be real bomb the pilots actually asked for shaftner cuz he cracks the briefcase open and shows it to her and she said there were six or eight red sticks. And a bunch of wires the pilot asked her if they thought in your opinion is that was a real bomb, can she says i think so too then and then maybe you say well i guess it doesn't really matter if its real not

28:28 Because once you say i have a bomb that's all you really need to do. You can't say prove it that's true that's true and when it comes to the actual point of departure from the plane talk to us about that little bit because this is course is gonna speak to, search radius below where are the FBI is looking for him but no one really sees him jump right know when season jumps shortly after taking off from seattle They're flying to refuel in reno his original demand was to fly to mexico but the pilot said you know under the conditions he asked for, the plane won't have enough fuel to make it all the way to mexico they briefly discuss where to stop for refueling and its agree upon will stop in reno.

29:15 Shortly after they take off he instructs the stewardess to go into the cockpit she briefly showed him how to lower the rear air stairs and then when she goes to the cockpit she sees in putting on a parachute not the last anyone ever saw of him. When they are in the cockpit radio back to him if you still there one point, He says yes and then around eight eleven to thirteen depending on which report transcript you reading the pilots noticed a pressure bump in the cabin. And it actually cause the pilot need to correct the flight of the plane and so they made no that as a possibility that's where he jumped basing at maybe the rear air stairs bounce back up after he jumped out

30:03 And so they actually made a test of this. They flew the plane out over the ocean sometime later with the 200 pound weight on the back of rear air stairs with them down and pushed it off to see if they could replicate that pressure bump, and it did! So they believe that that pressure bump was where he jumped out of the plane which was somewhere around Ariel Washington Yakult Amboy area. So when you hear people talk about the drop zone That's what they're talking about and it seems like he would have known everything that you did know about the plane seems like you would've also known that i wouldn't make all the way to mexico city or even across the border. And all indications are that really had no intention of even getting there that was just need to go with that direction so i can jump out over here,

30:57 Right i believe he wanted them to fly along a specific path and that's why you mentioned mexico and then. Shows reno you want him to fly a specific path not necessarily to a specific place i mean, he obviously planned on jumping out of the airplane so the end destination i don't really think matters just has to be over that line yes And it's victor twenty three is the flight path that plane was on interesting and. What can be said about the search itself how long did it go on how much area did they cover, what can we set about that and then nothing was found not even his parachute nothing else on the ground know nothing on the ground was found

31:46 You know the fact that he chose to do this the day before thanksgiving i think is really important because it gives him a very long weekend. Get back to his life if you had a job and also on holiday weekends you tend to have the longtime employees or your better employees would be on vacation so you can't have the b team running things during the holiday, Yes so i think his choice to do it at that time is important. And goes to show how well planned this whole thing was and he actually had, i want to say it was over forty eight hours before there were boots on the ground searching the area that they believe you jumped in. And then in that area of weather turns get a bunch of snow out there and so make searching even more difficult

32:45 And so they didn't do a real thorough search of the area until spring when they had like two hundred dudes from the national guard just start stomping through the woods looking for what they thought would be dead body and, actually found a body in teenage girl i believe from unrelated case but never found anything else. And i guess there was a bundle of money found or a couple bundles of money but that was way later can you break that down for us is a bit of a mystery and itself isn't it. Absolutely so the only evidence of this hijacking that's found after work, is in nineteen eighty eight year old boy is camping on

33:34 A river bank with his parents and pushes in sand decide to make a fire pit and uncovers three bundles of cash about fifty eight hundred bucks. And they take it home and try to clean up the money's deteriorated had rubber bands on it when they found it but they quickly crumbled, and they figured out you know is probably the dv cooper money get hold of the FBI the fbi takes it as dv cooper money Basically dig up that whole beachside area tina bar on the columbia and didn't find anything else. What how the money got there the condition it was in that is only added more questions nobody has a good explanation for how that money got there,

34:22 It is interesting because the first thought is like well he dropped some and it floated down and landed on the shore what's so difficult about that but it doesn't seem like. That would even be possible right, Right yeah i interviewed this guy tom k and he did a bunch of different experiments trying to figure out how the money got there trying to figure out how long rubber bands last outdoors even went so far as to figure out. The company that was producing the rubber bands for banks on the west coast at that time, And basically got the recipe from them on what was the chemical makeup of the rubber bands at that time. Duplicate them and ran a bunch experiments to see how they would deteriorated outdoors he also put a bunch of bundles of ones with his business card in him,

35:18 And through a man a bunch of different water sheds to see if they would flow different directions and actually got a call from someone who found one of those bundles it didn't make it very far i wanna say it made about a mile from where he put that money in the first place. And tina bar is about ten or fifteen miles west of where the plane was even if you assume it was the farthest west in that victor twenty three flight path, So there is a good explanation for how i got their it's like you dropped in the air and land there, there isn't an explanation for being dropped in the water have heard people say that you know maybe he jumped into columbia and the money. Sank to the bottom and then dredge scooped up and dumped on me they're just not a good explanation for how that money got there other than

36:14 A plant really about you know probably ninety days before it was found there right that's so nuts because i guess nine years just completely impossible that money could actually. Be preserved outside and its location for nine full years right yeah is crazy is quite a mystery and he really is a legend yes this real, Kind of anti hero status i mean he brought a supposed bomb on a plane and hijacked it. Technically you would think you know we put a lot of people in danger why this, anti hero status because the god away is that just kind of this stick to the man sort of thing what are your thoughts on just be or of dvd cooper and how he's perceived

37:09 I think it's all of that and kind of in the portland in seattle area i mean they kinda have a very liberal stick to the man kind of an attitude. And no one was hurt doing this i think if he would've pushed stewardess out of the plane and she died people be talking about this in a very different way but, no one was hurt so you can't kind of root for him the money wasn't shared so It is like a rob the airline of everything and they went out of business because this you know he got two hundred thousand dollars from the airline that was insured i wanna say they recoup rated eighty percent of that from insurance company.

37:53 So people reform and he's cool is drinking and smoking in a suit wearing sunglasses and then jumps out of the plane like that right i guess just out of my own curiosity do we know what brand of bourbon you was drinking, we don't but we know you are smoking cigarettes. Right on man if i had a bourbon company i definitely be making ads that it was me it was my stuff you know only the best for dv cooper, i don't know about the best is probably just well bourbon on the airline. Right right right what in terms of money did he demands that the airline meet the ransom i mean obviously when someone hijack something and ask for two hundred thousand dollars as lot of moving parts and lotta people involved

38:44 Some might think the money came from the government was it because it was just their airplane is seems weird where did all that money come from what's specifically requested from him to be a hit to the airline. Will that interesting because there was a lot of hijacking going on at the time mostly for political reasons you like flying me to cuba, But this was the first one where he demanded a ransom but the airline in seattle had two hundred and fifty thousand dollars set aside for such an emergency. Which is seen to me that they did that you know did you know about that it is not why he asked for two hundred thousand because you knew there already have that money on hand,

39:37 Well that speaks to the inside job hypothesis i don't know how many different suspects can be folded under that umbrella but that detail does suggest a little maneuvering from behind the curtain. Yeah and then you know the fact he knew that the rear airshares of the plane could be lowered the cia were doing tests in vietnam, dropping cargo and potentially soldiers out of the back of seven twenty seven because it looked like. Commercial plane so they can fly that drop soldiers in gear on the back of it was he involved in that was he doing something with that,

40:20 Right i have heard that suggestion that he was cia and the fbi didn't really investigate as well as they could add or they turned a blind eye are there realized, it was bumping up against the other agency and just backed off. There are those claims out there do you think there's any merit to those is definitely plausible I mean i just had this guy on not look folk who believes it was e howard hunt that pulled off. And he does look very similar to the first sketch and there's that where is testifying in the watergate hearings, he's wearing sunglasses if you just google lee howard hunt one of the first images that comes up is him in sunglasses testifying on that

41:09 And that's very interesting i mean he could have done that to change airline security at the time i mean not a guy has a bunch of reasons why you think it's e howard hunt but. He definitely had some knowledge he knew more about the plane and the pilots did right. And there wasn't exactly google at the time it is so true when you put it back in the context of nineteen seventy one, there's very limited ways you could have the information about the plane information about the parachute Also knowing or maybe that's coincidence that he asked for the right amount of money but you gotta add that to the pile. His call miss because you have to have all this up in your head still mean this speaks to a long time planning absolutely let me ask if the FBI,

42:03 Has done anything that you consider sketchy in this overall investigation like i mentioned some researchers think they turned a blind eye or could've done more have they always been forthright and your opinion as you look at this material. It's interesting i mean there isn't much known about him but the FBI says they investigated thousands of people involved in this and you know the sport parachuting community nineteen seventy one. Wasn't very big wasn't a ton of people doing that so they were just going to all these different sports parachuting clubs investigating those guys asking if he thought it could be,

42:42 Anyone they knew they got hundreds of thousands leads because the sketch is generic looking and it could be all you know that kind looks like my uncle in my uncle was parachuting. In the military world war two so we just didn't have that much to go on but one of my favorite things the FBI did was around two thousand seven i believe there was a, Online forum called the drop zone which was a skydiving form and they started to read about dv cooper. And that really was the place to go for the dv cooper investigation as a fan or is an amateur investigator, when fbi agent by the name of larry carr went on there under the name secret like the letter c k r e t

43:38 And started posting on there and asking people things, and then started providing information that obviously only the FBI would have. I just think that's wild i mean thats a crazy approach to an investigation and maybe something you can only do after 35 years with no real evidence or leads. I mean like i cant think of another example where the fbi has done that. I had read that there are files have been released recently you can mention the beginning i don't know what would be release but why are they releasing files and have added any real context. They're releasing files because of a couple of lawsuits from tom colbert i believe freedom of information act so they just been dumping these batches of files,

44:36 And you can go through them about their investigations some notes but i don't know if you've ever gone through stuff like that but it's incredibly boring so much is redacted sometimes you don't know what your reading or if its important you can read conflicting. Reports because they're interviewing different people but you dont know who they are interviewing because thats redacted, So there are a couple people that are really going through them one in particular guy goes by his name fly jack has been going through man and doing the great job kind of. Sourcing out what is valuable and what's not but i mean each time it's like ten thousand pages, when and let me ask you having read so many books do you have a particular favorite book on the subject definitely

45:32 Bruce smith dv cooper and the FBI is a great great book it talks about multiple suspects about the investigation, about things that he thinks the fbi did poorly in the investigation. It's a great but marty andrade his book finding dv cooper that is also a great book talks about like i mentioned earlier about the jump being survivable Not the folks book i actually like about e howard hundt being dvd cooper that's the most recent one so that when talks about some of the FBI files and has them in his book. And just the fact it is more reason makes good max gunther's book. About dvd cooper is also good although lot of people believe its fiction interesting yeah you're at dvd cooper sponge man you soaked up an,

46:32 In terms of technical analysis of things that are possible now that weren't back then has using modern technology yielded any information i know there's not a lot of stuff to analyze but i believe tom k did some work on the tire right yeah and thats interesting, that agent larry car who got in the forum. He actually opened it up to tom k and tom k is not involved with the FBI he's a paleontologist, end of the bunch about their businesses but. He actually got access to the fbi files and there evidence in the only real evidence they had that you can examine real closely was the time that was left on plane

47:18 So he got it under an electron microscope and found a bunch of rare earth minerals on the tie. He found pure titanium on there, and then a bunch of other substances from like cathode ray tubes things that your average dude wouldn't have on his tie which is another thing that just kind of adds more mystery to this Right is there any possible explanation for that does it give us a clue to anything is there a certain kind of person who would wear a tie and be working with that kinda stuff. It does mean they're only a handful of places in nineteen seventy one that were working with pure titanium what have been chemical companies, we're doing at the time some people said going supersonic transport although others said it would've been a titanium alloy that was used

48:14 There's a company tech tronics in portland that was using some of that and making cathode ray tubes so. It does narrow it down if you believe that the evidence on the tie is critical to who db cooper was you know in some suspect peddlers say that that's important and some say that not, Yeah it is hard to say with so much time passing. Is that analysis accurate? Was this tie just tossed on some other evidence in the old days of not really paying that much attention to this stuff, it's hard to say

48:53 Yeah absolutely i mean we're coming up on fifty years that this happened and there are still tons of people who are trying to solve this fifty years later you know many the principal people now or dead. Yes and i have to ask about the more conspiratorial conclusions people come to some wilder than others but i've heard it suggested that he was an mk ultra style victim that's pretty wild. What sort of theories have you heard in that regard what are some of the most epic claims well i think one of the most epic claims is it was a howard hunt that pulled off there,

49:33 I mean he was working for the cia on and off he was kind of in trouble with the law on and got in trouble with watergate you is working for nixon not serious that he did it outside. Government instruction but knew that the government would have his back because he ultimately accomplished their goal in changing airline security by doing that Wow yeah i mean to be so calm there almost is this error of will even if i get caught i mean come on. It's got that kind of tone do it attitude i agree and you know bruce smith talk to a lot about this, he believes you know it was special forces and weather it was a guy in special forces doing it because he wasn't instructed to or because he

50:32 How does skill set and wanted to use it for his own financial gain of course is not sure but i think there's a lot of validity in that i mean you're talking about an insane amount of planning, can be able to do this inside information and then the ability to execute that plan not every forty five year old guy can do. Can you that and the fact that he remains calm says to me that he's a guy who is done dangerous things before this isn't his first rodeo. Absolutely and in terms of the securities and protocols that did change what can be said about that well, when was the last time you went there for him now it's crazy oh yeah in nineteen seventy one he's able to get onto the plane without showing i d

51:27 With a briefcase bomb and it's no problem all you had to do is say his name. Dan cooper and then the agent writes out on the ticket and then he walks onto an airplane appears later they have metal detectors started looking in bags, And they actually added two 727s after this, a device called the Cooper vane named after Dan Cooper that prevents the rear air stairs from being opened in flight. Wow yeah obviously airports are completely different now it feels like we're being processed for prison sometimes and it is a curious thing obviously you might not share the extreme views that I sometimes have but

52:17 There are a lot of examples where i can be made that something that changed protocols to make things more like checkpoints or more militarized or reduce people's freedoms and rights. What time is those catalysts have something sketchy about them or possibly could, Definitely i don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that this is a or another agency hold this off, what do you mean there's a lot going on there and the fact that this was never solved i think kinda adds to that conspiratorial.

53:03 Angle on this see people it's a better fit for us than you realized. And kind of interesting similar to roswell new mexico there is a subculture in ariel washington of celebrating these events even today isn't there unfortunately that stopped two or three years ago now So there was dvd cooper days that was held in ariel washington at the aerial store and it's in the middle of nowhere i mean you. Get off the main highway and then drive for forty five minutes into the woods to get to i don't even wanna say the town of ariel be,

53:46 I mean the aerial store is the town there's just that one building their home and there would be a wild party every year of friday after thanksgiving where they would be no three or four hundred people this bar cars. Park on the street for two miles and it was great time in the whole building is basically dedicated to dv cooper but unfortunately when the owner donna elliott passed away, the county took away the business licenses from them because they're not building is it up to any sort of health or safety codes at all so, you know if you wanna run this as a business you have to meet current health and safety standards now. And so her son who took it over me that would just be an absolute daunting task in the buildings pretty much falling down

54:41 and the kitchen bar ran was just like the kitchen in your home it was not a commercial kitchen at all. Yes so you list has actually started db cooper con to replace that dvd couper days celebration that was an aerial yes and that was obviously my closing question what's the get into that because it is coming up fast i guess tell the people what do expect now they're all jazzed up why go to cooper con. Because its gonna be a solid two days of dvd you have the convention at the kiggins theater,

55:21 And it's gonna be eight hours i'm the opening speaker marty and roddy will be there also many of the names i've had on show eric ulis bill rollins will be their bruce smith all the names in the dvd cooper community will be there so if you're interested in this year in portland area head on out come see us. Yes i think even the daughter of the. The pilot or somebody who is involved in this somehow it's coming if that's not a mistake on my part yes she is gonna be coming out speaking about her father experience and miss, her father was the pilot captain co-captain right on have you ever heard talk about. Her conversations with their own father i guess she was a teenager when this happened

56:10 Has she spoken out before about memories from her father details that he's told her i've actually never heard her speak before so i'm excited about that. Right on and i've heard there's other interesting things going on like an escape room and i guess some kind of road to her you know like when you go, down to texas by the book depository everybody wants to get up in that window where is well was no one want to walk the path of the motorcade and there something similar happening here right. Absolutely so it's three day event there's gonna be a meeting great

56:49 a group of on friday the twenty second and saturday all day you have the conference. And then on sunday there's a couple other dvd cooper events there is gonna be about to order tina bar the dvd cooper escape room i like you mentioned road tour with bruce smith that kind of follows along the flight path and takes you into, that drop zone areas you can see where dvd cooper would've jumped out of the plane in cd aerial store it's So it's exciting to be cooper if you're not school and bruce smith is an amazing person. Amazing person to talk to so definitely worth it cool well if i was up in the pacific northwest i would definitely show but i hope this draws a little more attention to the con and it is a success, i hope so i hope its not just me speaking to people are already talking about dvd player

57:46 No i'm sure there's gonna be some new faces but very cool and ask the podcast is definitely well done anything else to add their how long do you plan on doing it as the list of suspects in researchers more fast than i might think. Definitely when i had started this project i told myself at the end of this year i was going to be all done in the dvd cooper game that i was meeting up with russell culver who edits my show put it all together for me, And there's just a lot more to cover and a lot more to do. So we're going to continue to do the show into next year. Bam! You know, like you mentioned, we already have 30 hours of content on DB Cooper out already and many more suspects in many other stories to cover so... We're gonna continue to do the show Right on Are there maybe any other stories or mysteries that you plan on turning your attention to next?

58:43 Not that i can think of right now, i mean it's interesting somebody told me oh do you love true crime like no not really i don't listen to any other true crime podcasts or anything like that. Is just the story that i was interested in and fell down a very deep rabbit hole all cooper all the time oh yeah man well I just think it's a lot of fun like i said in the beginning they can get really heavy around here its nice to just talk about something barely light, i mean it gets quite dark sometimes doing the preparation for these shows that this was a little break even for me and.

59:24 I definitely enjoyed it. So thanks again, man! Have a great time at the con and keep up the good work! Yeah thanks for having me on Gregg, I appreciate it. Check out my show The Cooper Vortex and come see me at DB Cooper Con in Portland November 22nd through 24th Cheers It's the end of the world as we know it And I feel fine people Mmmmm Hopefully you also feel fine I'm sure today's show was unexpected which you know i like and also think it's a nice break from the heaviness out there which i know some people will agree because i've gotten some messages with requests for. A cryptid show or something in the paranormal realm or movie breakdown episode and this isn't that i think its medicine for the same problem

1:00:20 which could maybe be summed up as the intensity of our time. Of course, some will go the other way and say why do something so mundane when the world is on fire like it is? But The Global Motion Picture Stage Show isn't taking its cues from THC and the world has been on some kind of fire since I was knee high to a duck. And yes, higher side chats can be a major conduit to seeing things behind the curtain But does that make the fire less hot? Not really. But Darren brought it up and told me when the conference was, and I checked out some of his previous interviews and thought hey if THC is ever going to have a DB Cooper episode in The Archive this is the guy to have it with

1:01:10 And his previous interviews he basically says that he started doing his own deep dive db cooper podcast because it was so sick of hearing that same template applied to the smattering of podcasts that had their dvd cooper episode. I vibe with that and figured hey will do that same thing, But when I know we're doing a one-off show, I definitely try to make sure it's as full and complete as it can be because we're probably not coming back to this. It seems like people out there root for a guy like DB Cooper in an economic system with such strong downcurrent where the story feels like a time where Joe did get one over on the system with his big break

1:02:00 And it seems like that is a lot of the magic in the DB Cooper saga. Then in the back of my mind I go back to a guy like Court Lindahl or these guests we have that seem to point out, behind many of the household stories and mysteries out there are people promoting these stories for one reason or another. As you guys are at home clearly sitting with your was this some manipulated event checklist You've got to put a checkmark in the box for did this event increase orwellian security or infringe on the rights of people with a new standard protocol so from that perspective. The db cooper tale might not be much different from the damn shoe bomber story you know something happens once and then it changes the protocol forever thats an element i can't ignore,

1:02:57 It's funny because i never heard the e howard hunt suggestion and it doesn't really have to be him personally but many agents and assets to the cia would have these skills. I guess we can ever really know if the FBI or law enforcement tried their hardest but they definitely didn't find there man, add just smells of the type of everyman lore creation around something that was in op you might expect It's kind of like they think if you just give the people a compelling mystery or fairy tale, that's all they need and they're never going to be looking at us. Plus the CIA always seems to be trying to increase their black budget funds so there's another compelling item on the checklist I mean hey! The money never surfaced again right? Hmm funny how that is

1:03:56 So the irony is that I try to do a nice simple one-off show that tackles a fun little mystery and doesn't have to remind us that nothing is genuine, and there's always some agents of the system pulling the strings. And here we are... Hey comedy was supposed to be an integral part of The Higher Side Chat's DNA? And I guess the joke's on me! Again, we don't know but the more I consider this possibility the more I lean towards it But if you heard the full episode, the second hour is where it does feel more complete because we took a good hard look at all the mainstream candidates and most likely suspects according to alternative researchers. And I do think it's just fun to hear about people who have had such crazy lives that those around them think well shit maybe this is DB Cooper maybe they pulled off that heist as well as all of the other crazy shit they've done so even if they didn't

1:04:58 You know they're interesting people so that was fun we also talked about the zodiac killer case why people think this might be. The same perpetrator we also talked about the alcatraz escapee theories and the idea that maybe some of the flight crew is in on it all those fun possibilities, We also talked about the culture of these sorts of investigations and mysteries the researchers fighting amongst themselves. The fact that the more you learn about something the more possibilities, you entertain the more confused you can sometimes get or them or you realize that. A strong case can be made for a lot of things and only one can be true

1:05:47 Going back to a line from that old intro I used to use. I find the more you think, you know the less you really do Anyway good stuff! I try hard to make these episodes as solid as I can for ya and The Hireside Chats Plus is cheaper than Disney Plus which is all shit You've seen before anyway So sign up at thehiresideschats.com and all your wildest dreams will come true Plus, we can stick it to Disney for taking that plus branding from me. That said I'm pretty proud of the overall complete DB Cooper episode that will have in our archives there was an empty spot on the shelf just for this i'm also happy to help out someone who has taken their subject matter so seriously and takes a similar approach to podcasting as I do

1:06:47 And I also like to sprinkle some extra promotional fairy dust on live events. They're really hard to organize, and they're really hard to turn a profit on! Seriously, i've thought about HiresideCon... ...and when you start to total up flights and hotels and actual payment for a bunch of speakers and a venue the costs get pretty insane pretty fast And most people don't commit to something until the last minute so can be pretty scary to have this front end investment out there and not know if it's really gonna be recouped. I mean i thought about this enough that sometimes after recording an episode i've talked with some of our previous guests who do a lot of conferences, about what would take and they said five grand plus room in board which is like eight or nine grand and that one guy

1:07:44 How many $40 tickets do I need to sell just to break even on one guy? I don't know exactly, but it's too many. So if you are in the Pacific Northwest check out CooperCon! I'm sure you'll find a few new friends with similar interests plus it is good to get off the internet and meet people face-to-face once in awhile You're not going to see me doing that but YOU should do that JKJK But big thanks again to Darren for sharing his knowledge and for perfecting his craft, and I'll see you next time. Lucid dreams are so vivid, cause you go to bed at seven And your brain comes alive because you hate your nine-to-five You wake up with a dread and make sure your cats are fed Did your brain talk to a ghost who moved your coffee and toast As you listen to the higher side chats

1:08:50 You get to your desk and your boss says it's a mess And your soul slowly goes To a place where nothing grows When you think he's not around, you insert a SETI sound The OM says turn it down and you say It's just the higher side chats Oh do you think you'd be invited? To Bohemia Grove. To a Bilderberg club Do you think you'd be invited by a Rothschild to a party on a submarine. Diving down, to the center of the earth through the Marianas Trench your teeth begin to clench from the sulphur-y estench The mask you're given doesn't fit cause you're not one of them

1:09:46 Starting today, you'll make plans to get away There's no one to hold you down And the what-ifs start to drown Then you wake To the glare Of a cofluorescent stare and The light winks at you Cause it's life is almost through But it's holding on to quit time just like You It's time for the high side chats you