Carl Abrahamsson | Occulture, The Primordial Awe, & The Economy Of Magic

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00:51 Which means you'll unfortunately never hear my voice again. The planet's puppet masters almost surely have a plan There's clearly maybe something there beyond the realm of man Until we've thoroughly tested every last closed chested view Find the more, ya think you know unless you really do

01:29 Where would we be without THC? We know they're lying to us, just don't know to what degree. Where would we be without THC? The highest side chat show. Great Carl Wood and Company Folks, it's probably no surprise to hear that magical activities are going on within our world pretty much constantly and this is a tale as old as time. From man's first cave paintings to the Super Bowl halftime show pulling ideas down from the imaginative realm and firmly planning them in the physical through conscious attention and art creation just seems to be one of those quirky things man does

02:19 We've heard about the concept of the muse and countless artists who have been quite clear about not exactly knowing where their art comes from, sometimes saying it finds them more so than the other way around. So there's definitely some interesting interplay between consciousness and ideas that I don't think we fully unpacked Yet it's something the occult world has been exploring and experimenting with behind the scenes for years. And while these activities are usually relegated to the shadows, few people really understand the scope of magical thinking art and its influence on the wider culture Which brings us to today's guest his name is Carl Abrahamson a writer publisher Maggio anthropologist filmmaker and more

02:59 His latest book is titled A Culture, The Unseen Forces That Drive Culture Forward. And in it he explores that curious crossroads between art and magic, discusses his insights from over 30 years in occult movements and takes a deeper look into the phenomena and people who have been the most crucial in modern esoteric developments including Carl Jung, Anton LaVey, Alistair Crowley, Rudolf Steiner and more. An insightful sage of the esoteric ways, Carl welcome to THC! Thank you. What a magnificent introduction! It's all part of the 9 to 5 at this point, but thank you, thank you

03:35 And I really appreciate you joining me. I really enjoyed the book and I really just like the term a culture and the general exploration of where ideas come from, how they spread what makes them potent? There is a ton of food for thought in there and we should probably kick this off with some type overview maybe you can expand on this term a culture and the importance of that space between art and magic Yeah, huge subjects of course but let's begin with the word. Occulture is something that the artist Genesis Pioric put together these two in themselves beautiful potent words, the occult and culture and they merge really well together so you get occulture but it's way beyond that kind

04:22 punny little mix, it also carries a significance because that's what the book is about. These two things these two sort of grey areas have been not only coexisting but working together sometimes merging more sometimes merging less but there has always been an interplay between the occult and culture and most people are fairly knowledgeable When someone asks them, what is culture? They can give their own response saying well it's this and that and it's the arts. It's in the public sphere and things like that but when it comes to the occult then we drift into something that's usually quite tainted with either prejudice or misunderstandings semantic complexities or religious fear you know its kind of a morass or truly a gray area on which people can project

05:17 their own fantasies whether they be good fantasy so whether they be bad fantasy so the account is more of a problem at problematic things it logically it means hidden that's just pure latin you know occult in And if we look at what's been hidden over the centuries or even the millennia, it is usually ideas that go against the grain connected to behavior that goes against the grain. These things have interacted with culture then becomes easier to understand when you keep it on this sort of general level and disregarding the hocus pocus for now at least so these could've been

05:57 renegade people who had an idea of their own, whether it be primitive scientists or experimental scientists or artists who wants to explore new forms. Philosophers and even religious people will say that no there's another kind of divinity or this is not a kind of spirituality you know beyond the band around the corner but in the times they have been living in has been too radical, too powerful in a way because its constitutes a threat to the ruling hegemony of things. So, and when again when we keep it on that general level people can relate to it. We can see that going on today too in a way where things underneath the surface they are a little bit feared but if its strong enough it will just like flowers you know come up even through thick asphalt and if we then drift from the general and slightly more into the occult meaning the stuff

06:55 that's filled with magic and hocus pocus and occultism, and esoteric things. That has always been a part of human culture usually as with the other things I mentioned science philosophy etc it's been kept underneath the surface for two main reasons either to protect the philosophy and teaching and techniques from you know the rabble people who cannot understand or would kill them And so that's like protecting what you have. But then also, because of extreme antagonism and draconian measures also protecting their lives from people or systems that have an active interest in killing the philosophies of magic, killing the techniques of magic, killing the magical people etc., because we

07:45 we have been living under a rule of monotheistic power structures for a long, long time. And they have never been benevolent, they have never been open-minded, they've just wanted to secure their own power structures." Then you could argue is that something decidedly monotheistic? Well perhaps not but if we look at the polytheistic cultures, they are usually inherently more open minded and thereby more tolerant. So regardless if the occult is just stuff that is not seen with a naked eye, you have to scratch the surface and then you find things but all of these things

08:27 whether it's magic or science, whatever has always gone hand in hand with the development of culture. Sometimes those hands have been in the dark because it's been too dangerous for people who've been working on new concepts to flaunt them in a way but that their relationship has always been there is a fact and that's why Occulture Is punny? Yes, but it's also a brilliant word because it truly is a synthesis. It means the synthesis of something that is totally essential for human well-being and for human cultural well being

09:05 Yeah, I really like the term and i think that's a great explanation. And it does seem like magic kind of works better maybe if you're the only group that doesn't end history is full of authority figures telling people there's nothing to it or evil don't do it and not to me as a reason to look into it now it's like exactly so exactly i mean that just been my approach to it and also Natural, I mean it's part of the environment and it almost seems like the human story itself And I guess I would ask you what do you consider? The most important points when trying to Incorporate or reincorporate this component this magical component to understanding Nature in reality for people who might be like what are you talking about magic. I never think about magic Or it never comes up in my life How do we fold it back in?

09:57 I think to have that kind of nature not only as a kind of abstracted analogy but as an actual concrete thing really helps because when you think about nature or like when we talk about it with most urban people, they think that well nature takes a walk in the forest so you go out into the countryside and it's always daytime and sunny and it's nice you take a walk in the high but the darkness of nature is usually much more rewarding in terms of revelations, you can have like beautiful experiences in nature. In the daytime just because this no beauty and assist them and it's kind of harmony there that is actually there

10:41 not because of humans, although hubris would dictate otherwise but actually in spite of human presence and it's very strong. But as the sun sets and becomes like a twilight then darkness if you're all alone in the forest and you're used to being in an urban environment, you will very likely freak out because there's nowhere to charge your phone. There are no lights. There is nothing! There is just an incredible variety of sounds and if we're not used them, then everything is a threat so just by being out

11:21 alone in nature, like one evening or one night for as long as you can take it. You are exposed to your own primordial fears and that's basically where everything begins. You know, you cannot really, like Jung said in a way this word individuate I love that is the process of individuation which should become or develop, or hone, or trim yourself so that you become the person you want to be basically. And you cannot really begin that process unless you know what the strong emotions are. So that's what I mean is it can be good to meet your own fear in that kind of safe way. If we were out in Central African jungle, it could very dangerous but in our forest maybe the most we could hope for

12:12 is maybe an elk or a moose, or lynx, or maybe a wolf. But it's not really that dangerous but still we are super scared I would like to sort of assume that most people will be super scared simply because the fact that is not uncommon environment and our stimuli of safety and comfort are simply not there. And that's a remarkable feeling of exactly, safety and comfort to crawl into a tent which is basically just as you know some kind of synthetic material on some lightweight structure but just being inside the tent

12:53 is a remarkable sense of being inside a cave in a way. So with these simple tricks, you can integrate a deeper understanding of yourself, how is it that I'm so scared of this thing? This is just nature... I removed myself into the forest and it's beautiful. The sun set, that was beautiful now it's dark now I am afraid or maybe some people will just think that wow this is so super cool but no matter what the emotions you get in that state, in that frame of mind they will be strong whereas emotions in an urban comfort environment are usually quite bland

13:34 You know we are moderated we are what do you call it an anesthetized in a way but by entertainment and medication and buy alcohol and buy no social play. It's a kind of lukewarm existence. So what I'm getting to is that in order to get your, get to know yourself better in order to begin on this process of individuation it's highly recommended that you actually confront yourself within a natural structure within nature and that could be at sea or it could mean the forest or in the mountains. It's just that kind of proximity to something

14:14 strong will trigger stuff in your own psyche that will be very, very beneficial. And then of course what should come I'm not saying that it always does some people have to work really hard with it what should come is this encounter with yourself in a way and then the next step is that when you know yourself that well within this natural context you will also see that you are a part of this same nature. And here we can begin to sort of trace things back to ancient shamanism or to Gnostic, the Gnostics even Gnostic Christianity like the very first Christians saying that you know there is a kind of divinity at play here

14:59 The shamans said that, well it's in nature. The spirit is in nature and many other religions would stick with that as we meaning like Westerners became more and more abstracted and more intellectual, more mental We separated ourselves from that sort of primordial awe or feeling of oneness with nature And that's a shame and something I stress In the book also we have to get back in a way or move on towards the future in which we reclaim those shamanic things because that's ingrained in every serious of pure kind of discipline, magic whatever. It all stems from the same source so if you want to play with that kind of thing or learn about these things and the best things do is actually start with shamanism and study Gnosticism in a way because it

15:54 It's a direct communication between you and nature. You know, there is nothing else we don't need any divine names or symbols even it's right there in being immersed in things that grow wildly Love it man. It is almost like the process Kind of unfolds itself if you let it in when you sit with all that You gotta have so much respect for the ancestors They're kind of confronting fear and the unknown every 12 hours like a baked-in initiation Oh absolutely, it's kind of crazy when you think about it from our modern world And then you can't think about when was the last time I?

16:35 Maybe some of the listeners were in the dark alone at night for even just an hour so maybe never maybe ten years and perhaps there's a some conditioning involved their yeah when you think about it how. you know, placated we are. You know? How soft we've become. And of course, well, you could argue that we live in the best of worlds et cetera and we have so much freedom and the possibility to do things. It is mind blowing actually. You know it's a wonderful thing. So I'm not in any way sort of dismissing that as being irrelevant but I can see that for most people it's like a very superficial kind of dance where you dance on the eye or you skate on some kind of ice of superficiality

17:20 but you cannot really see into the depth because there is this ice in between. And you cannot really look up to the sky or higher either, because then you will sort of fall, because you will sort of skid and slip." So it is the best of all worlds, but it could be even more better according to me if people became a bit more open-minded. Explore themselves, explore other states of consciousness and just try to actively integrate what they find and preferably within the natural context meaning a context that touches upon nature as such because the city which

18:03 Most people don't live in cities but many people do especially in the western world and that kind of urbanization is increasing. It's kind of a perverted existence to not actually walk on the earth, but they have this crust of artificiality between the earth and ourselves it's highly detrimental to health, psychic health to everything basically. So I think the more people can get their asses out in nature, the better absolutely. I'm with you and i think it's pretty clear after reading the book that we both have a great appreciation for counterculture and the rebels out on the fringe and you focus largely on occult movements for about

18:48 as long as I've been alive, to be honest. And this show is pretty rooted in conspiracy culture and I see the two as synergistic and complimentary in a lot of ways but there are big parts of conspiracy culture that treat them like oil and water maybe they don't have the right definition maybe they only see the negative side but how would you equate the two or how compatible would you consider these two flavors of alternative thinking? Well, I think that the biggest likeness is this thing where you have a core. That core is usually to begin with a few people and the core is actually an idea or set of ideas

19:34 you know, occultism. You have people doing strange things that sort of emanate from this core of thinking, this core philosophy So when you have any kind of esoteric environment focused around this core it becomes almost like a atomic structure We have center which is the thought-core which is a proton and then we have these electrons circling around it And they can't really leave their orbits, you know. There's a kind of magnetic thing because it gets what is now called like an egregorian energy the core attracts and the core might originally have been something else but that's besides the point because the dynamic of these kinds of things when it moves over generations is that it becomes mythic and then the attraction can actually become

20:27 stronger than it originally was. And you could take like Christianity for example, which was basically just like a rebel rousing thing but then as it became more and more well documented and people saw that they could have their own power structures because this thing was becoming popular, then of course they jumped at the opportunity and then it morphed into something different. But it's still connected to that original core but probably not adverbitum because the Bible was written so much later essentially or put together so much later. In terms of conspiracies you can find a similar kind of thing is that there is an idea someone has a revelation saying

21:16 those people are actually doing this they claim to be doing that but they're actually doing this and I see this as a negative thing do you agree and then when there are people who are agreeing upon this thing could be for various reasons Then you have a similar kind of egregore or core where they become like electrons around this initial proton which is a formulation, or an assumption, or a theory, or speculation. Or even a prejudice! So in that sense it's schematically the same Another similarity I would say if you look at it historically

21:56 obsessionality, you know the obsession with the idea becomes very very strong. We can also see similarities in that regard, budding political movements for instance. But they're political moments are usually initially actually conspiracies because they take fuel antithetical fuel from the outside like pointing the finger towards one specific group of dissidents or other people have other minds or other ethnicities what's it called, ethnicities. I don't know! Different people simply and so thereby you have that kind of dynamic where it becomes something larger than the original idea because people become obsessed with it and the funny thing or sometimes not so funny is

22:53 is that the reason people become attracted to this might be just a vague kind of resonance with the core idea, a vague resonance with the political idea or religious idea. Or even with a magical concept in a magical group but the reason they join or move closer to the core could be just you know psychological issues. They want a new kind of friendship, they feel at home and that's something that movements of all kinds have used to their own advantage meaning then you have the cultic behavior which exists in occult movements and occult orders but also in political environments and to a large extent I would say in conspiratorial

23:42 world, you know whether it's if the main object for instance is respect for cultures from outer space. You know kind of a UFO culture then of course the enemy will be those here on earth politicians or military who try to put the lid on it in a way. You always need that kind of scapegoating thing but when you have those things in place meaning a welcoming structure and an idea filled with obsessional potential And this kind of social glue also in potential. Then you have a good thing going if you want to cult. That's a great breakdown and I do see them as kinda similar spirits, great point about the obsession, the passion it is very much there component of both worlds and both of them are kinda about getting past mainstream culture they're anti-authoritarian

24:37 Kind of about reality hacking. I mean, why do people like conspiracy? Well, I would think it's because they're trying to get at the raw truth rather than the vanilla flavored surface so that they can probably navigate the world better and you know magic is the same way It's about self-improvement and strengthening yourself to avoid manipulation. It's like a type of consciousness armor So to speak yeah absolutely And I think also that is a great difference actually. You call it self-improvement and that's absolutely true because that's usually not the case in basic conspiracy theories

25:14 because there is an obsession with an idea, but that idea or working with the idea against the enemy doesn't necessarily improve your life. It doesn't have that kind of human potential thing whereas in occultism or traditionally like a philosophical environment where you use experimental techniques it's always there when you try these things and make them work for you your life will be better But to my knowledge, that's not the case with for instance UFO conspiracies. If you join this UFO conspiracy your life will be much better I don't think people use that as a kind of an attraction beacon Usually the attraction lies in a resonance on the deeper level which is probably usually that the people who want to join in are disgruntled in the same way

26:10 Ask the formulators yeah i mean that's true obviously conspiracy and magic they both cover a huge amount of topics but i would think in my former years it was learning about banking learning about debt. learning not to get stuck in credit card that i mean about mind control techniques and the power of advertising learning about the cog in the wheel nine-to-five rat race maybe how to pivot away from getting stuck in that rut i mean that is the true value or was the true value to me and. I love UFOs as well, don't get me wrong but i don't know what to do with that. Yeah exactly no but I see what you're saying No thats true many of these things that you talk about from the conspiratorial environment they are actually

26:59 magical liberating things what i mean it by magical they may not be specifically or calgary's but their medical in the sense that day will change your life like if you become insightful about these. Relationships that seem so normal but are an actual fact abnormal to human well being, then if you break away from that, then of course that's a magical thing. Then you are changing your life to the better. I was thinking more like very spaced out things so of aliens and stuff but you're right in terms of societal control and stuff like that yeah if you can inform people about that and risk being called conspiracy theorist or practitioner than it doesn't really matter. The main thing is what do you feel

27:48 Is right for your development indeed i'm taking the turn back or trying to it's a tough road but as for magic you write about it as powerful individualistic process of transmutation and betterment but you also say when collective approaches are attempted. the process and results turn into something else. Manipulations, politics, demagoguia, power tripping and so forth. Initial communal goals are one thing manipulation of the masses is another." I think that gets at the heart of what makes conspiracy folks so skeptical but avoiding a tool doesn't keep it from existing or stop it from being used against you

28:30 I'm kind of curious what type of role you think occultism and magical ritual plays within the power structures on the planet today. Is it still there? I think so, but it's morphing in a very intelligent way and the reason why its intelligent is that it somehow connected to nature itself as such whatever you want to call We are connected to nature whether we are completely urban and completely destroyed fragmented by technology or living in like a mist of entertainment. We are still parts of nature and if we can connect you know i don't know what term to use there like mentally your spiritually or in the soul all these terms are so um no,

29:22 ingrained with problematic associations. But I do think that if we can just open ourselves up, preferably in nature proper and get that kind of initial glimpse of that connection then thats a good way to start and as we are human beings we are also the creators all human culture and human progress the semantics, human language all of these things. So if we open ourselves up to new input then we will have more and different fodder to use for formulation and I can see very interesting things going on now where thematically that the thematics of magic you know the historical that weirdos, the occultists, the artists who used occult themes... That's really

30:16 around these days. You know, there's like major art show after major art show after major art show all over the world happening and it's been going on now for four decades at least and a lot of people... It's not marginalized anymore A lot of people see this and they're exposed to it so thereby what was once ostracized and pointed finger at is now commonplace and totally integrated in a kind of not lowbrow but highbrow context. You know, people intellectuals who used to shun anything experimental or even spiritual can now go an say yeah I went to Barcelona saw this wonderful exhibition of esoteric paintings because there's always something going on somewhere

31:03 Also goes for popular entertainment and academic treatise is more around so that i see as a result of need we need this different input when you need to be open minded. When were open-minded have a different kind of input preferably an input on inspiration thats very important, what is it that were going to be inspired by? Well, there is only one thing essentially and that's your own relationship with nature and vice versa. Nature's relationship with you and once we have made that connection you need to stick with it and develop it because I think my thesis is that you cannot really make any progress in life unless you have these bits and pieces

31:52 inside yourself. Again, I avoid using in your soul or in your mind just on the inside you know and in your inner life because then it will also reflect in the outer meaning decision making what you do how you approach things how you treat other people most people who are bullies most people who are completely unindividuated No imbalance to the degree of self destruction or a distraction about people is simply because they haven't even dared to take the few trampling steps. And you know someone who is fully individuated usually filled with respect for life like such other peoples lives and the life of plants on earth,

32:40 So it's kind of easy to read people you know you can see how far they are in their own process then you couldn't there is no moralism involved here i'm not saying that you need to use your job to save them if they are absolute retards and they will never have a good day will never have a future, when should just maybe leave the be and focus on yourself i'm strong believer in what i call egotistical altruism is that do you have two. shine by example you cannot force feed anyone else that always goes wrong so you should just focus on yourself my business yet be willing to spread this kind of inspiration is there need and of course actual help if someone needs that but the main thing is to go from this

33:28 you know, collective power dynamic because it always ends up in disaster. You know so many beautiful ideas have been handled well in the beginning its grown and grown into movements etc etc but its always ends in the same way some kind of disaster some kind of corruption some kind of abusive situations It seems that people individuals with power in collectives simply can't handle it and I don't think that man meaning man, woman isn't meant to be elevated to positions where you lose yourself basically. And that's the message I have is find yourself and stick with yourself

34:09 Right that's a great message yet and it's quite enough you know i could take a lifetime to figure out what is still people just want to be little herd animals in order they want to be webbed. Buy someone who claims to have the truth but an actual fact of people who claim to have the truth very seldom do Right an egotistical altruism. I like that term and it kind of jives with you know Jordan Peterson big popular guy right now but his words about all the protesters and people getting up in arms and going out in the streets with posters and Wanting to change their world and throwing out their philosophy is he says, you know before you do all that clean your room Yeah Like let's get back to basics and build the blocks of

34:52 what it means to be a real example. If your room looks like a disaster, that's a very basic human thing. What do you have to change the world? That's very complex to try to expose your philosophy and how everything is going to reach utopia. You need to go back and work on those fundamentals." I think that's kind of a great lesson too. It seems like to me magical thinking or magical processes are more baked in and inherent in us than we realize Possibly unavoidable and in one piece you have an example of kids playing with dolls and action figures framing them as physical talismans that kids project their imagination into I thought that was a really interesting example, And i wondered if you could expand on magical processes and other simple areas of life that we just might not recognize.

35:43 Well, let's look at it from the point of view of absolute wonderful super potential. We are adults I mean I'm 52 and I don't know your age but you seem to be an adult Barely! Barely legal No, but I think that we can have the perspective of an adult meaning you know we understand causality. We understand the rational mind and also understand the irrational mind. We can have a very wide perspective on existence and what's possible Kids live in kind of magical fantasy world actually for the most part

36:23 Growing up simply means you have to strip that away and become more and more rational, more and more causal. But we as insightful adults can also integrate that kind of thinking which for simplicity's sake could be called magical thinking meaning if I have a stick and you have and we say that this is a magical wand, and this is some magical disc. Then on the rational level it's just words you know? It means nothing but when you leave the pure What do you call it with the pure level of language and actually you know when i look at each other we say okay this time for real. I will both decide in our interaction that is stick is actually a magical one meaning its an object with which i can enforce my magic or will on my outer surroundings,

37:17 and you have your magical disc, you can do similar things with something that was originally just a stone but now it's something else because we've decided it. And we use our imagination, our fantasy faculty and the thing is how do you measure what's real? Because for kids, they're playing. They play acting. They're games. They are real! Their apprehension of reality is real It doesn't correspond with how a mathematics professor at Harvard looks at reality But it's nonetheless real for them So if we look at the sort of malleable aspects

37:56 the human mind and apprehension of reality, that creates a kind of game changer because then you can say that I decide what's real. And of course it can be cumbersome and quite problematic to work this kinda magic on the pavement in rush hour than someone who probably called the cops maybe but if you do it like its supposed to be done in a temple setting meaning a kinda fantasy chamber which has a limited time, a limited space and you enter it in a ceremonial or ritualistic way then you change your mind frame like Lavey so beautifully put it. Enter the intellectual decompression chamber that's very very important and then when you go into that for that time in that space

38:45 you can do anything and of course this is based in a theory saying that if you open your mind in the similar way then you can program yourself and thereby with you being the proxy program the outer world. And this is near very experimental psychology, very experimental behavioral science and of course those sciences haven't caught up yet but they will I'm sure they will and the thing is that When push comes to shove, it doesn't really matter whether something is acknowledged by empirical science. What matters is the kind of pragmatic approach if it works for you then its beautiful If you get results from doing oddball things in a ritualistic manner then that's beautiful To me that just means that you have elevated yourself to a higher degree

39:38 of being human because that's something that humans have done since, again this is a silly expression, since the dawn of man. I don't know what that means but you know that's really the truth of it people have been very experimental initially they tried to survive they tried in panic to survive much fiercer beasts than humans and then eventually other human tribes. And that's something that is obviously still going on today, but that kind of thinking you know thinking truly outside the box... The box is something that was constructed I would say

40:17 enlightenment like late 18th century and onwards that's when the box was created and that's the box that we have to step out of now it's time high time i was stepped out of the box. Share so that you hear that expression all the time think outside the box but i've never heard someone express like when was that box constructed really interesting and my favorite part of the book Was the economy of magic there's no free lunch or free magical success because it cuts right to the core of Magic and people's feelings about magical transactions. I've expressed before that i've done a few experimentations in magic and i was faced with a decent amount of well now you're compromised You made a deal with the devil for your soul, and now you can't be trusted yeah

41:05 Yet these same people enjoy the comforts of the modern age at the expense of the third world and the earth itself sitting in cozy air conditioning Yeah, is energy draining sitting in clothes that are likely made in a sweatshop on the other side of the world bitching about Pollution but not enough to stop driving a gas guzzling car so it's all paid for by a credit card Which is the same kind of economy Yes, yes. And it's like living good lives while the empire does your dirty work. It's a bit hypocritical to criticize exchange in a magical sense while ignoring this transactionary nature of everyday reality wouldn't you say?

41:44 Absolutely, absolutely. And you know this is I don't know exactly when this thing began and what specifically the economical thing with a credit based economy in higher finances it's of course always been there because there have been banks that have borrowed money to states or cities and huge corporations and it's all been like one very abstracted economical field that has absolutely been based on credit but for the normal joe in a way normal joe and what's the feminine maybe. Jane normal john of course then you know i think invention or the development of the concept of credit card,

42:25 Because you could, of course get a loan like a mortgage for your house and the mortgage for your car and stuff like that. But those are heavy expenses and need to be dealt with in some profit making way for the people who lend them money. The credit card was something else because that's even small expenses. That means that you have no freedom at all in terms of making decisions whether should I afford to buy this chocolate bar? or can I afford to go to the movies? It's like, you know way beyond getting the money together or borrowing the money to buy a car or house. So when people have given up even that kind of miniscule spending and you get that stuff on your card then it is very likely that when you're in that system you will never be free because its all based on barely paying the credit card bill and most people

43:20 can't do it, like on a month-to-month basis. They live with much higher debt than what they can afford to pay back that specific month and it's not shameful It's actually natural. It's encouraged, it's actually enforced you know so and one thing is very remarkable here in when you compare I spend a lot of time in the US Actually I love the U.S., but one thing that is so remarkable for me as European and that's the fact that people talk a lot about their own credit rating I got a better rating this year and you know, have this and that. And I need that rating to get the new car on whatever is like over here. You know it's basically the same kind of system but people aren't as obsessed by it. And I can't explain that. I think that Americans have grown up. I would say 20th century specifically was very much growing up in a kind

44:19 financial public a public kind of financial thinking where you don't really have any secrets no your life your finance like this transparent and the second of all an obsession that to i was thinking also the expression that used to be i think originally advertising slogan. but then became like a household mantra or a proto meme in a way and that's the thing what's good for General Motors is good for America. Meaning I don't know if you've heard that, but i have seen it mentioned in advertising history in a way is how things can change from being

44:58 an advertising name into a sociological name into an actual you know life wisdom is it kind of dark with them but still no one's good for general motors is good for america and people take that as they don't question that statement. And that kind of focus on what you call it, like macro economy and how that sort of seeps through even into the micro economies of normal people. Of Jane and Joe. That's kind of remarkable because it's not something that's designed to make people free in the old days was like save up to realize your dreams save up your money have a savings account

45:41 and live your dream when you have enough money for it. But today a savings account is kind of spare resource when you can't pay your credit card bill, then you take from your savings account and pay off your credit card bill so that kinda economic thinking has changed considerably since I would say the later half of the 20th century. And let's return to magic then, it's I wouldn't say that it is completely analogous that people today are more careless and they are more prone to making deals with forces for quick success stuff like that The only thing that can say that interesting is there seems

46:24 a resurgence in interest in old magics like medieval magic, the grimoires trafficking with spirits and demons something that was I think originally concocted by the church. It's their symbols they're talking about these demons and then the magicians sort of usurped it took over that thing maybe to mock the church or whatever, but now those old grimoires are taken as de facto magical textbooks in a way. And I believe that whatever you do with zest and gusto and you know of pure heart in a way that will work it will work so calling upon these angels and spirits and demons that will absolutely work

47:13 somehow in the depths of these people's psyches. But the main thing is that, what I'm getting to is that that is a typical situation or dynamic where the economic aspects of magic are very clear and that goes also for a lot of African proto-religions like voodoo and stuff that traveled out into the world to the West Indies and South America all the things that's kind of a barter you know some it's a bargain is a deal making going on, i'll sacrifice this and get this there's a clear cut economical thinking but also of course have the last story which is not only a story was actually

48:01 or Edwin Goethe wrote it, is like a myth already. And it's still a myth within magic and that's why I think in part these grimoires are so popular people are attracted to them for various reasons. It's this thing where you buy Easy declaration before some kind of force that is stronger than you are you declare what do you want in life and this being says that well i can give that to you if i get this in return so it's a deal making and then of course everything goes wrong. and that could have to do with some inherent pseudo-christian moralism because who knows? There's not been any scientific results over the centuries or scientific analysis over the centuries of magical dealmaking. Maybe all of these demons and spirits, whatever it is have fulfilled their parts of the bargain and maybe people are very happy with this kind of magical system we don't know but if we take sort of the mythic

49:03 the literary accounts where they have been no influence by christianity or not you can see that these things most often go wrong and thats the thing with. Economy to like if u overspend it will create problems if we don't pay back what you owe you will be even more in debt and i can ruin ruin the lives of families for instance So what I'm saying is in this text, the economy of magic is simply that it's very good to invest. You generate magical energy in yourself and then you can invest that in your magical workings or life in the shape of inspiration and just well-being that beams from you. And that kind of investment in others or simply

49:51 surrounding to increase your own magical energy even more that's what I call a positive economy because you will attract things then that you can quote unquote buy with your magical energy and thats a better way to go about it than simply demand of some external force saying hey, you over there in the dark corner give me what i want and i gave you this then that you don't know those forces you don't know them is like a bank at least you can have some semblance of knowing the interest rate is but you don't know if u. Unless you work in a very active traditional system i'm thinking again on the so the exodus things stem from africa those are systems that have been worked for along long time and those forces that are used there

50:43 the people who work them usually know them very, very well. So I would say that's a more healthier banking system in those systems. Yeah! I think it is great analogy that plays on multiple levels you just don't want to get over your head when you're dealing with MasterCard Visa or the pantheon of contactable entities It is quite simple Exactly Oh...I like it To quote that piece, I mentioned this to you before we started. But you write in our Western sphere self and will rule supreme without self knowledge and will we get nowhere or perhaps at most we get shuffled around by others who are more eloquent in defining us and who thereby can use us for their own ends

51:28 But if self and will are there, then we have a good solid foundation for how magic and life work. And I think that's such a great point too! There is nothing negative about having drive and motivation and defined goals because as you said if you don't define your goals or your will some shitty corporation will be more than happy to define it for you and you can spend a few decades in some soul sucking cubicle ya know? Yeah, absolutely. And the thing is it's very interesting to think about where does the negative connotation come from? Like with self it's usually equated with some ruthless egotism but it's really not. Self is just a container kind of mental container that contains your driving program in life

52:16 And it's how you interact with other people, how you interact with yourself. It was like a little box inside your container where your driver seat is. It's like the driving program and there's absolutely nothing negative in being proud of that and being happy about the way you drive your vehicle is just wonderful and yet there is a lot of prejudice thing because when people talk, more so in Europe I say and other parts of the world too. In America it's pretty okay to have that drive but then again there's also the adverse or possibly negative thing with that is that when you become

53:05 You know and that's very common in magic to when you get a technology and you have the technology working for you whether it's like from western system on eastern system or african system doesn't matter when you realize wow this is really working then you become sort of inflated. You know, and I mentioned it in the book. I've mentioned it in many lectures to this analogy of Mickey Mouse and the Sorcerer's Apprentice in Fantasia you know where he becomes so hubristic he thinks that he can control all these magical forces but it just ends in disaster and Mickey Mouse is overwhelmed by the forces that he evokes in a way. So I think that each

53:46 Ego system is good but it needs to be in moderation not for moralistic reasons, but for the reasons of balance simply because you know we all knew as kids too like in the playground. You know some kids were just smart ass or smart asshole and he didn't want to play with them because they just thought that they knew everything and had all the answers on their own around the show But they just were little shits. So they were discounted by their own lack of self-realization, they believed too much in themselves

54:27 Yeah, hubris is big in conspiracy too. People find a few threads and they're like I'm done researching! I know the answers it's all the Freemasons you know stuff like that yeah well again A Culture is the book do let people know about any of your other work they might want to Know about or where to keep up with you and what you're doing? Yeah yeah no mean this this fairly steady stream of stuff The book that came before our culture in 2014 is also worth checking out. It's called Resonances, you know like a mix between reason and resonances so Resonances and it's on the beautiful publisher Scarlet Imprint

55:04 I think their address is scarletimperit.com and they have many, many beautiful books and then of course the best website for me is patreon.com slash vanessa23karl that's where me and my wife are doing all our shenanigans to keep in touch with people. for my personal blogging and stuff. And that's simply my name, KarlAbrahamsson.com That's Abrahamson with two Ss and Carl with a C. Karlabrahamson.com and patreon.com slash Vanessa23Karl. And that's basically it! Through these sites people can find a lot of things. My publishing company and the record company and filmmaking and all that stuff

55:53 Right on and Scarlet Imprint. Yeah, what a great company to reference because this whole conversation has been about just the throwaway digital culture and yet they do make these beautiful books I've been lucky to have a few. Oh yeah, no they're fantastic! Well awesome Carl this has been a lot of fun you know a lot about a lot keep fighting the good fight and take care out there. Thank you very much for having me thanks bye There we have it guys, Carl Abrahamsen. Big fan! A fairly complimentary episode to last week's with Chris Bennett. Magic and ancient culture last week magic and more current culture this week Carl is a real ideas man in the truest sense of the word And just given all the recent talk about conspiracy as a culture how to make it better How to be involved in it In such a way that actually improves your life

56:47 I thought it was appropriate and i'm sorry if it seems like i'm going into this too much lately. Maybe we do just want to decompress and have some fun talking about aliens and demons? That has a place in at least what I do for sure, but I am just a bit sick of the chorus line that i'm hearing a lot lately that conspiracy has no value being interested in it gets you nowhere And I'm getting a little sick of these spikes in popularity with topics that sort of, at least to me, reduce its value. Or, at a minimum without commenting on the merit of any specific thing some of these recently viral conspiratorial topics make the whole worldview more polarizing not less. I think that's fair to say

57:40 And I've always kind of in my hand had that card of let's also try to bring people. In rather than build a wall between us and just talk crazier and crazier wilder and wilder only amongst ourselves, Maybe I'm overly justifying my own existence here, but i think becoming conspiracy wise is one of the most useful things a person can do. So I really fight back on this notion that it's a waste of time overall and doesn't get you anywhere And I feel the same way about magic by shunning it That doesn't make it any less true or real or any less powerful at all

58:21 for people to use who might have nefarious reasons or want to use it against you in the form of mind control, marketing even. And I did kind of come into this interview a little more like hey this show has a voice and you have a lot of interesting commentary let's kinda blend those two obviously i was trying to find that synergy I don't know if the nail got hit exactly on the head, but i think long-time listeners would definitely be able to fold in the kind of things Carl was saying today and get what I was going for. You know? I have a really long list of guests I want to get to my Rolodex is pretty thick but I tried to get this one on the books partly in response to magic equals bad type of critics and I hope we can

59:11 elevate the conversation about magic above the level of paranoia and religious residue. Because to think testing magic out a little bit automatically equals sacrificing children and selling your soul? Come on, we can think a little bit deeper than that can't we I think we can just like you can still have a conspiracy guy over for dinner And it doesn't have to get weird Unless we're talking about Eddie Bravo, but as a side note I think Carl sounds exactly like Daniele Bolelli Which to me is just funny and that accent makes it a little hard to edit around and still sound natural So I just kind of let a lot of it go But man It has got to be hard to do an interview about complex abstract things in a second language Must give the man props for that. Huh?

1:00:06 Also content wise I really liked the economy of magic part that we sort of ended the free show on. I got a little worked up there because making some of those points was a big part of doing this one and obviously it's in my head far before an episode is actually recorded so i was itching you know But admittedly, some of the money stuff that Carl is talking about is just tough these days because the economic screws are tightening. But largely I get what he's saying. He's just talking about the change in cultural ideas around debt and credit cards or spending more than you make has definitely been normalized and that is quite a feat for the credit card companies considering what they have normalized

1:00:54 there should be an inherent reaction of, oh shit this is not sustainable. But they have nerfed that response right down to normalcy and necessity and that's definitely worth pointing out but I do like how these modes of thinking also apply to magic don't over wager try not to get obsessed and don't get in any kind of debt spiritual financial or otherwise It's just interesting, you know? Who is out there doing this sort of comparative cultural analysis between magic as just an element of life and these other things. I feel like i can count them on one hand And also feel as if Carl is one the good wizards. I get a really good vibe

1:01:45 We had a little bit of talk about magic and nature, which was great. And it's going to come up in another show down the road here you know we like to cast a wide net so we gotta hit all the other topics in the conspiratorial fringe cornucopia and we will but we're gonna talk about magic and nature pretty deeply eventually here It's a connection that I've been hearing emphasized a lot more, magic and nature. And yes, i know we've obviously heard that it's not entirely new but...I think we gloss over what nature is or what it means because basically what Carl was saying today if you just engage with nature engage with night and darkness magic just happens

1:02:34 to remove randomly happening magical paranormal experiences and encounters from the everyday lives of people has a lot to do with living in cities, developing electricity staying comfortable indoors etc. And here's where I think we really get into it. But maybe these indigenous cultures around the world who seem to have these really deeply developed cosmologies and models for reality, enriched spirit context and all that jazz—whether we're talking about today or looking back into the ancient world and romanticizing that

1:03:11 From our ignorant and cut-off point of view, we think oh man these people they don't travel around the globe or communicate with each other. They must have had teachers spiritual or physical but maybe spirits and magic and these modes of thinking and all this stuff maybe it's just a natural unavoidable element of that sort of indigenous lifestyle maybe it's supposed to be baked into the cake of what it is to be human You know, Gordon has been banging this drum at us for a long time. I think it's why he is big on the permaculture thing right now. Maybe work out how can i backdoor a re-enchantment of the world? Well if we just get back into working with the land and bringing nature back into our everyday lives maybe the magic will just be as obvious as the insects you know And that makes absolute sense because I've talked about the time when I tried to do a little magic and go off into

1:04:10 Finding a liminal space around me and my old apartment. And I ended up going to a place in san diego there's a couple of them but it's called the slow it's like us swampy nature preserve and there are trails around it now is ago great this is kind of nature this is about the best thing i can find, you go their special at night and it is just a homeless camp cuz its still in the city And so the idea of in that space getting away is really not realistic. And, of course I didn't have a great magical experience or very potent one or any at all and i didn't learn the lesson then but I'm circling around it now I guess but it's just like yeah you need nature! It's part of the soup The magical signal isn't going to be that strong unless you are fully immersed in it At least thats what I've been thinking lately

1:05:06 Nature, of course is a big overarching term with many ingredients in that recipe and we forgot some of those ingredients because they aren't immediately apparent and we don't live in it. And maybe spirits and magic are just as much ingredients as tomatoes and rabbits I don't know these are just the thoughts that have been stuck in my head lately And it's all wrapped up in a desire to have better conversations about magic, I guess. Or maybe the ancient past? And Carl... his work checks a lot of those boxes for me So i hope i'm on the same page as you guys! I hope you know what i'm trying to get at with this thread of shows Got a lot of threads running at once but this one in particular

1:05:58 I hope you know what i'm saying. So two complimentary shows in the can, we are going right back to some good old real world conspiracy stuff very soon as well as some hollow earth stuff that i'm pretty pumped for of course today if you only heard the first hour and the plus show with Carl we talked about things like why our magical potency is lacking today and what we could do about it true art versus decoration positive trauma and its uses His piece Pokemon Go Away, which I really liked gets into technology and culture and magic. We talked about place in regards to magical potency man myth and Hollywood that new movie Sorry To Bother You? I think that looks quite good. I didn't expect that to come up and I talked a little bit about what I appreciated at least from the trailer Carl of course saw the movie

1:06:52 And for people who heard the plus show, I wasn't trying to say that we shouldn't aim for the world to be fair. You know? We should all want to make the world better but we should also understand that sometimes aren't going to change the world especially not overnight so we have to figure out how to deal with it and how to climb these ladders as unfair as they might be If you're going to change the world, excellent. If you're gonna navigate the world differently when you learn new information about how skewed it is also great if you're just gonna complain about unfairness well that's not really helping on either front that's just what I was trying to say The movie looks good sorry to bother you check it out but all of this said I think we had some interesting food for thought for sure

1:07:44 Why don't you just double your pleasure, double your fun. Sign up for the Hireside Chats through my website or Patreon if that's your thing? I think the website is easier especially when factoring in access to the bonus stuff maybe i'm biased but people like Patreon so it is whatever The support is always appreciated either way A lot of people asking for support now...I'm glad you chose to indulge me if you did So again, all that support is always appreciated and I'm gonna keep trying to bring us interesting people to push our worldly understanding higher. No pun intended! And i'll see you next time Your move culture creators esoteric artists and magic makers of the world You're fucking... This is important hear what I said I'm trying to tell you It's not paranoia not in my head

1:08:42 It's just the hard truth. Knocked on your door, I still can't to ask you cuz' i know your head is still in the sand Don't be sheep till you're slaughter for the rest of your life Oppressed, oppressed but you're getting woke You say you don't want to be stressed until the day you die Tough luck my friend Did ya get the memo? Can't you see that we are so screwed? Don't you know where our Can't you just admit we're screwed? Anyway, is this okay? We're so- You sit and wish but we don't have a choice It seems we're stuck here But you can find nosis Drown out the noise Now use that altar End up your magic game And listen to THC You know Go with the edtees If you ever see

1:10:09 Don't be sheep to your slaughter for the rest of your life Oppressed, oppressed but you're getting woke You say you don't want to be stressed until the day you die Tough luck my friend Did ya get the memo? Can't you see that we're so screwed? Don't you know where our cum- Can't you just admit we're screwed I'm gonna tell K.A.

1:11:15 Don't be sheep to your slaughter for the rest of your life Oppressed, oppressed but you're getting woke You say you don't want to be stressed until the day you die Tough luck my friend Did ya get the memo? Can't you see that we're so screwed? Don't you know we are kung fu? Can't you just admit we're screwed I'm gonna tell anyway It's a scary day Can't you see that