Paul Schatzkin | T. Townsend Brown, Philo T. Farnsworth, Secret Science, & The Caroline Group

00:00 Planet Puppet Masters, oh sure they have a plan. There's clearly maybe something there beyond the- But until you've thoroughly tested every last close just to view Find them all you think you know the less you really do Where would we be? L T A C

00:44 The road they're lying to us just don't know to what degree Now OVB, FTHC Highest Side Chat Show Carl Wooden Company Serenity now, Hireside Chatters doing the thing from the Sunshine State. I'm Greg Carlwood and over the years we've examined the stories of and even spoken with many bright minds in the realm of alternative energy whose work demonstrates an off-the-books physics and undiscussed processes in our environment that seemingly can be harnessed for applications that could benefit society

01:32 But not so much the piggy banks of the financier class or the centralized, institutional traditional metered systems of energy we remain shackled to. Some call the medium the ether Wilhelm Reich called it Orgon Energy and some use other names or just occasionally say plasma but it's clear that Reich Tesla Schauberger Stanley Meyer John Hutchinson Victor Rabenikoff and others were working on things outside of the pre-approved processes And in many cases their work demonstrated very interesting things at the crossroads of overabundant energy and anti-gravity. Because the indication is that the scientific quarantine cuts around both these very things, that utilize the same forbidden information."

02:16 In the history of this show, we've talked with people like James DeMaio, Aaron Murakami, Eric Dollard, Jeremiah Ferwerda, Dr. Paul LaViolette, Kosh, Ernst Wilhelm Vanderburg, Dr. Gerald Pollack, Dr. Dean Radin, David Bloom, Foster Gamble, Dr. Judy Wood and others who all seem to have their hands on at least a piece of this elephant in the room And today we're talking to Paul Shatzkin, who has written the quintessential biographies of two others who fit into this mold. Philo T Farnsworth and T Townsend Brown with his books The Boy Who Invented Television and the follow up The Man Who Mastered Gravity both books written with impressive detail in collaboration with the surviving families of both men and they even have some compelling connective tissue between them

03:05 As for Paul, he barely graduated college having majored mainly in joint rolling and took off for California hoping to land some career in the television industry. And he accomplished this goal working as a videotape editor for ABC as well on The Barney Miller Show for which she was nominated for an Emmy His passion for television led him to investigate the largely uncredited true inventor of the technology, leading to his biography of Philo T. Farnsworth and the success of that led to his latest follow-up on T Townsend Browne. Both stories containing more than enough provocative aspects to be featured here so let's get at it! The obscure 20th century inventor biographer fusion fanatic and yearner for a world without roads Paul welcome to the higher side

03:51 I think you nailed me there. I appreciate that all in a day's work and thanks for agreeing to do this these two books are super impressive and the work you've done here certainly deserves to be recognized as you know, I reached out to over the T Townsend Brown book but in preparation for this I've learned so much more than I had expected we will fold in Farnsworth where we can but I want to start with your book on Brown because his history is a lot more complex and oftentimes redacted, but your book fills in so many gaps due to working with his daughter Linda who was also his lab assistant for many years as well as two semi-anonymous colleagues of Brown's whose names

04:38 You held back but are very much real because Linda knew them too. But let's start there with the process of writing this book, Linda and these two guys Morgan and O'Reilly who gave you details nobody else could break us in here how did this come about? And who are these guys? Well, the origins of this particular project go back to the summer of 2002 when I was finishing the biography that was published later that year of Philo T. Farnsworth who is The Boy Who Invented Television—that's the name of the book and the fact.

05:15 I was at a place in my life then where a previous occupation had come to an end, and I was now finishing this book based on material that I'd had at my command for 20 years. At that point more. And I'm imagining that I have now become a biographer of obscure twentieth century scientists. That's going to be my next career path if you can call it that And I'm wondering what I would do for Encore when this book was released. We had scheduled it for the 75th anniversary of the physical arrival of video on the planet in 1927, and that summer sometime, I believe in July, I got an anonymous email that said check out this guy. This guy was T Townsend Brown who up to that point I had never heard of and had no knowledge of

06:08 And the email said that some of his work had found its way into something that the Sharper image was selling, that would be the Ionic Breeze air purifier. Some of the work could be seen in blue lights flying over the Nevada desert! And I am not naturally drawn to that sort of mystery or conspiracy. I don't dismiss them, but I don't actively pursue them either. But I was looking for something to do to follow up the book that I was about to publish in order to continue my lucrative career as a biographer of obscure 20th century scientists.

06:47 So I went down that rabbit hole. I looked up Townsend Brown on the internet, I found a site that a friend of the family had created. I contacted the person who ran that site As time passed, my book was published. I now had that much credibility and was eventually put in touch with Townsend Brown's living daughter Linda Brown who lived in the Yucca Valley in California at the time and we struck up a correspondence through the fall and early winter of 2002 into 2003 became sufficiently ingratiated to each other that she was willing to pursue the project. And then we met for the first time in Las Vegas, in I think April of 2003 and that was pretty much when the project got started

07:38 Yes that's a great summary and this anonymous email i believe also led you to morgan we should fold in morgan because he was browns colleague and protege for twenty years linda had a big crush on him maybe they had a thing together I think he had a crush on her as well but It's interesting because I've interviewed other people about books with anonymous characters and we kind of just have to go by their pseudonyms and all that, trust that they are who they say they are. But you met with Linda, you worked with Linda and she very much knows Morgan. You're just kinda not revealing who he is in the book but Morgan and O'Reilly this is where a lot of information that was previously unknown publicly comes from right?

08:27 That's right. And Morgan does not actually enter the picture for at least another year, and Linda and I were pretty much on our own and I often likened to the project... So when we met in Las Vegas in that spring of 2003 she brought up with her a couple of large rubber made tubs that were filled with what was left of the Townsend Brown archives. It was not a lot of material But we opened those tubs and we started digging through the material, and I think that's when I began to liken the project too. This is like trying to assemble a jigsaw puzzle when you're not sure if you have all the pieces and there's no photo on the box top...

09:12 So we were really just scrambling. We were struggling to find enough material to begin to build a narrative around, and I did a lot of other sidebar research and tried to learn what I could but for about a year we were really struggling to make any sense out it. And like I said Linda had worked closely with her father for many years particularly during the 1960s But I don't think that she really had any insight into anything that he was doing apart from the little project that they were working on. And he spent long times in absence where he just wasn't there for up to a year at one point, so there are a lot of holes in what Linda knew and what she could tell me but when we started In earnest on the project in the spring of 2003 She immediately started sending me

10:04 journal entries from the very copious and detailed enriched journals that she started keeping in the 1960s. And she started sharing with me information about this individual that I have since codenamed Norman, now Morgan rather and i think i know what his actual name was but there's no need to even go there So, we'll just continue to call the man Morgan." And she started sending me journal entries about how their relationship unfolded starting I think in 1963 or 64. She thought at the time that this individual who had been her lover during her late adolescence early adulthood was deceased, that he had died in a motorcycle accident in roughly 1988

10:54 And so she had had no contact with him from at least 1988 until we were beginning our correspondence in 2003, do the math. Yeah. 25 years? Right. So there's a story in the book The Man Who Mastered Gravity about I got a phone call from Linda. She's in California, and I'm here in Nashville Tennessee. And she reads to me a postcard that she has gotten that is signed Norman Paperman. And immediately while I am on the phone, I Google up Norman Paperman who turns out to be a character in a Herman Woke novel called Don't Stop The Carnival which also became a Jimmy Buffet musical called Don't Stop The Carnival.

11:44 Linda asks me if I have any idea who that is, and I don't. I've never heard this but Linda is very excited to have gotten this postcard and about two hours later, I got a phone call and... ...I don't think I took the call but I listened to the message that was left and it said Paul Mr. Paperman would like you to send your questions And then he gave me an address in Texas And I immediately called Linda and said, who knows that you and I have been talking about Norman Paperman? And there wasn't anybody who knew that. I had been talking about Norman Paperman but somebody knew. Long story short, it was about a week or so later, I did send some questions. I'm trying to recall the exact sequence of events but what happens is

12:44 this individual who was believed to have been deceased for all these years, shows up one afternoon at Linda's Corral at her ranch in Yucca Valley California and begins to provide us with this inside information. So Morgan essentially came back from the dead. Yeah that alone I mean we haven't even touched on the life of T Townes and Brown and that alone is such an interesting thing This guy morgan clearly is involved in deep projects as was browns while out of his history is redacted and his own family doesn't know where he was when you was doing some of this work, and the sky fakes his own death and then as your writing this book with.

13:29 brown's daughter shows up it is like hey if you got questions i'd like to answer some and that is where the book is just incredible and unlike a lot of books i read doing this job but Morgan speaks throughout his dialogue with you of a group he calls the caroline group which sounds like the invisible college or the men in black are these extra governmental groups we sometimes hear about in the shadows they are mentioned throughout but towards the end you address point blank who is the caroline group and you write morgan made frequent

14:05 allusions to the core or the spine of the Caroline Group, all sufficiently vague that I could not tell if he was referring to personnel deeply entrenched in the national security apparatus or something extraterrestrial or extra dimensional. For example this comment where Morgan writes The Caroline Group is worldwide in its scope. The fabric of it's membership is made up of folks who speak universal languages not just the spoken tongue math music the arts The message of the core group can more easily be discovered in those other forms and communication comes easier to the humans who seem to have a more creative nature. I mean, that is so wild man! I'm very intrigued by this. Is there more you can say to flesh out some sort of good idea? Of who this group was and who might be in it and how Brown got involved with them initially and why they are so often referring to the rest of us as the humans

15:04 Well, I do appreciate that you have cut right to the chase in our conversation here. I'm not sure how much more I can add to what I've put in the book because I was not given any further detail or experience that would really enable me to elaborate on the kinds of things that Morgan was telling me. Now, I think what he's telling there—in the best of my ability to make sense of it—is A higher intelligence in the universe is trying to convey what life in this universe is really capable of through the arts. And a lot of what we see as science fiction, is actually drawn from the realm of let's call it science possibility.

15:55 And you made, I think a reference at the very start to the video clip that I've put on the TTBrown.com website which is the last scene in the first Back To The Future movie where Doc Brown comes back from the future in his now fusion powered DeLorean and then takes Marty and I forget the girl's name back to the future. from my sensibilities to the best of my ability to make any sense of it. I think that is some intelligence trying to convey to us what is possible? Yes, yes and I've interviewed people who dissect films for their esoteric encodings and there's a lot of strange codes with the times and different numbers that you'll see pop up in

16:54 Back to the future is a really deep film and you're right he returns and he pours garbage into what is labeled the mister fusion home energy reactor and his name is doc brown you can't make that up and it's just so wild You don't know much more about the Caroline Group, and I believe the only references to its name is he just says, ''I will call it this for my own purposes.'' He doesn't tell you why it's called the Caroline Group. Is that right? Well, he calls it the Caroline Group and this will take us into... I think part of what interests you which is the corporate realm of control for lack of a better word while I'm thinking on my feet here but

17:40 The story is that in 1933, Brown was in the Navy at this time and he had already been on one expedition to actually explore anomalies in gravity. In the North Atlantic region he was on a submarine that was actually measuring fluctuations of gravity in the ocean That brought him to the attention of a man named Eldridge Reeves Johnson. Now, I'm big on inventor stories and I love stories about the lost origins of the technology that comprise our daily lives so when i mention Eldridge Reeves Johnson does that ring any bells for you other than those that you read in the book? No!

18:25 We're all familiar with Thomas Edison having invented the phonograph. Sure. Thomas Edison invented voice recording, Eldridge Reeves Johnson invented the recording industry. He was an engineer and inventor, and he was visited in I think the first decade of the 20th century by a man named Emil Berliner. So there are actually two designs of audio recording technology at that time. There was Edison's cylinder, and what Emil Berliner came up with was the flat disk. So Berliner called his device the gramophone

19:10 where Edison had called his device the phonograph. Now just for an amusement sidebar here, what are the awards that are given in the music industry every year? The Grammys and they look like a gramophone! They look like a grammophone...they look like the flat disk gramophone but if the grammophone hadn't been invented and the awards were named after Edison's device, the phonograph, what would be awards be called I don't know. The Eddies? No, they'd be called the Phonies! The Phonies! Ha ha ha...I like it. Yeah. All right so thank you for humoring me there. Hey of course So the story behind Reeves quickly or Reeve Johnson is quickly that he worked with Emil Berliner to create some improvements to the gramophone He made a much more practical home

20:03 audio device and began manufacturing them. And then he was the one who came up with the slave and master approach to producing records, and that's basically the foundation of the audio industry once you've made the master, you make slaves from the master and then you make the distributed products from the slaves so the master remains intact now use the slaves to mass produce phonograph records or gramophone records And he created the Victor Talking Machines Company. You've probably seen the image of the little dog sitting in front of a gramophone speaker with his head tilted and the caption, His Master's Voice? That was the logo for the RCA Victor Company and his master's voice was originally Emil Berliner and then later in a sense was Elder Dreeves Johnson because Johnson took over Berliners patents formed The Victor Talking Machines Company

20:58 became a very successful media, one of the earliest forms of media mogul in the 19-teens and into the 1920s. And then sold the Victor Talking Machines Company to The Radio Corporation Of America thus forming the RCA Victor Company in 1927 or 28 and Johnson made so much money that he then acquired himself the second largest yacht in America, which he dubbed after his deceased mother. He called it The Caroline. Mmmmm... Okay!

21:36 And after Townsend Brown had done this gravity expedition through the North Atlantic in 1932, he is invited to join another expedition aboard the Caroline with Eldridge Reeves Johnson and his friends and colleagues in 1933. And that is when Morgan is telling me Brown was recruited into whatever private intelligence organization Eldridge Reeves Johnson represented. Interesting, man! So that's why Morgan is calling it the Caroline Group because its origins stem back to Browns being recruited aboard this yacht on this expedition in 1933 aboard this yacht called The Caroline. Yeah, this is such important history and I know that your Philo T Farnsworth book gets a little more into

22:30 RCA cuz he battled with our CA and that's right i've interviewed people before who talk about marconi in those early radio days there is a lot of corporate espionage in that story and there is some high strangeness there some indications that maybe when you start messing with certain frequencies you star. tapping into communications with something else. And that's high octane speculation, as Dr. Farrell would say. It would be used... High-octane speculation? I like that phrase! It would be useful just to note in passing that when you start talking about the Radio Corporation of America, but that was actually a spin off

23:11 of the interests of the American Marconi Company, where the government during World War I didn't want those communications capabilities under foreign control. So they were kind of seized by the government and then spun off into a patent pool with all the broadcasting patents that AT&T and General Electric owned to create The Radio Corporation. It would not be unreasonable to surmise that The Radio Corporation was kind of a government spawn Yeah, I love it. And I can't believe we have not even given the bullet points of T Townsend Brown's career but let's do that walk us through the major bullet points on his resume and some of his discoveries as well but like chronologically where did he work? Like because a lot of the names that will come up are names that are familiar to people who do deep dives into this uh deep state kind of stuff

24:06 Well, I don't know. When you talk about bullet points, in this case you're probably talking about rubber bullets because they all bounce! What I think drives a lot of these narratives is the time in which they're taking place, and that is post-1905. The reason that's an important date is because that's the year that Einstein turns the universe upside down with the four papers that he released in what was known as his Annus Mirabilis where he releases the paper on the photoelectric effect of the Brownian states that basically confirm the existence of atoms, special relativity and then the final paper with the energy mass equivalents. These are the papers that transformed man's understanding of the universe in 1905

24:56 Brown is born in 1905. Philo Farnsworth is born in 1906, so neither of them ever knew a world that didn't have relativity and that cosmology, those associated theories as part of that reality and I think that's an important thing to keep in mind. We talk sometimes about digital natives you know the kids who grew up with cell phones and that informed how they went through their lives In the same way, growing up post-Annas Mirabilis informed the way Townsend Brown and Philo Farnsworth went through their lives. Good points! That's an important foundation that I want to emphasize too that we are about to be engulfed in another popular cultural wave about those ideas with the release in late July of the movie Oppenheimer. Yeah, yeah. Okay?

25:49 And particularly where we're talking about Farnsworth and the theoretical foundations that create an electronic video, that's very important because both the atomic bomb and electronic video draw from the same cosmological well. But we don't know that because Farnsworth history was swept under the rug by RCA Right, right. You want to talk about towns and browns? So we'll come back to that but like I say in my mind this is all part of the soup that is always swimming around here that I'm trying to make sense of sure but Townsend Brown showed himself to be a kind of an electronics prodigy at a very young age. He was born into a very prominent family in Zanesville, Ohio. His ancestors had created a company that was responsible for quarrying rock and building substantial buildings throughout the middle parts of Ohio. There are still buildings there like the Muskingum County Courthouse that was built by I believe his grandfather T.B. Townsend who was a mason

26:49 industrialist. And yes, Brown had a Masonic ring—he was part of that ring. So... Hello! Yeah exactly he did… He demonstrated a natural affinity for matters of electricity and science at a very young age there are accounts of him being regarded as Zanesville's second Edison the story actually begins with him electrifying a fence in his family's front yard and that causing earthworms to come to the surface that he took with him to go fishing. So we've got a child prodigy on our hands here, and the story is that you asked about kind of his education in the bullet points... And I'm kinda serious when I say they're kinda rubber bullet points because they just keep bouncing! Because for example enrolls in Caltech

27:41 At one point, his family had a home in Pasadena. And while he was there he enrolled in Caltech but didn't gravitate well toward the curriculum at Cal State. The story is that every time they'd set up a laboratory experiment they have to take it down and couldn't make any progress. But they're experimenting in a class with an x-ray tube. It's called a Coolidge Tube, which was one of the earliest expressions of X-ray technology and the foundation of his story is drawn from his observation not with what was going on in the Coolidge Tube but he noticed that when the voltage was applied to the Coolidge Tubes, the cables applying the voltage jumped

28:35 Something caused them to move and that's what got his attention. And that became kind of the rabbit hole that he went down to try to understand what forces were being revealed in what he was seeing there. That eventually, long story short becomes what is today recalled in some circles as the Biefeld-Brown effect where the negative electrode and a cathode sort of gravitates toward the positive and produces a form of motion And that's kind of the foundation of everything that we're talking about. What we don't know really is how valid all those observations were, or if they were in fact valid and revealed a level of intelligence that is being withheld from humanity. I say these things with a certain amount of reluctance because like I say, I don't want somebody showing up at my door to fit me for a tinfoil hat!

29:38 Fair enough, yes. And I grabbed some bullet points just from Wikipedia to kind of build a little bit of scaffolding here but Brown joined the Navy in 1930 he was He was then discharged in 1942 and the discharge exam just says no comment as for the reason he would be discharged. In 1944, he worked as a radar consultant for Lockheed which was also part of a different company at that time you know these companies they buy each other they merge it's a messy history but people definitely will perk up when they hear Lockheed

30:15 Then in 1955 he went to England, he demonstrated what he thought was an anti-gravity effect in a vacuum with his device. He became involved in the subject of UFOs and in 1956 helped found the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena Although he was forced out as director in 1957 with allegations that Brown was using funds to further his own anti-gravity research, then eventually he Continuing on with this and he formed his own anti gravity corporation ran international unlimited now this i don't think is that same brand corporation we know as like the military thing tank but clearly it's around i didn't realize he was. He set that up no wait nobody said i'm sorry read the actual rand corporation that you're referring to shows of later right,

31:08 It's weird that he would use that name, but then also present his work to the Rand Corporation of Renowned. So a lot of weird stuff going on here, but he thought he cracked anti-gravity by... Well can I stop you there for a second because... Please do. ...I have an intellectual exception in the use of the phrase anti-gravity? And it may just be a very picky thing with me, because I think the use of that terminology draws us into a realm of speculation and conspiracy theory that I try to steer clear off. What we're actually talking about is not anti-gravity but I use the phrase gravity control.

31:53 right on. Maybe electro-gravitics? Yeah, if in fact what we're talking about works and I have no conclusive evidence either way although there are enough holes in the story that it can go either way... It's the idea that we are producing artificial gravitational fields And I suppose you could just as well argue that produces an anti-gravity effect. But, I like the idea rather that we are producing artificial gravitational fields and thus controlling the field of gravity rather than just anti-gravity." Fair enough. And part of the appeal there too is we are talking about controlling these cosmic forces, the other story that I've written, the Philo T Farnsworth story later in his life he gets into controlling nuclear fusion which is an artificial star

32:47 So we're actually talking about artificial stars and artificial gravity. Right, and as you say Brown gets talked about in ufology and on these conspiracy forums that I love quite a bit... Yeah And for good reason but sometimes there seems to be a lot of embellishment online surprise surprise but finding the truth is made even more complicated by these events that happened at the Pearl Harbor Navy Base where he demonstrated his system, then discovered a mole was present. So he buried the work for years and even self-sabotaged himself to make it seem like there was nothing noteworthy to it. Is that right? That's the story that I'm telling in the book before I go into that. I just want to note for a second isn't curious that one of the seminal UFO investigation organizations was Brown's National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena

33:44 And the media are now encouraging us to drop the expression UFO, unidentified flying object in favor of unidentified aerial phenomena. Yes yes I was going to make that same point but it is curious. You know UFO is fine with me why do we have to change it? But isn't interesting that were changing back to what Townsend Brown used in the 50's Right right If you want to trace the origin of the expression aerial phenomena, unidentified aerial phenomena it goes back to Townsend Brown in 1950. Very weird! Yeah then the Pearl Harbor demonstration... So after World War II Brown takes his family to the island of Kauai and he encamps them in a grass valley

34:38 beyond the edge of civilization on the wild Nepali north coast of Kauai, and then basically disappears for a year. And the story that we're going to tell is that he spent most of that year at a laboratory in Pearl Harbor working with in particular a man named A.L. Kitzelman, Beau Kitzelman who was a mathematician and colleague and that they were coming up with a demonstrable version of two things. One is the electro-gravitic propulsion system, and the other – maybe more notably – is the gravitational communications system. That's an important

35:26 element of the story, and to me in some ways perhaps more believable than the electric propulsion story because that one is more compromised. In part because as you say he spent a fair amount of time in the 50s discrediting his own work so it's very difficult to separate what did work from what he was trying to discredit but if you'd like to take him in I'll explain by this gravitational communications. Please! All right, so you know how radio waves work. You start a signal at one place they activate a frequency which travels in a wave form to its destination and receiver and because it's traveling in a wave form It takes whatever the interval is for that wave to reach its destination now granted moving at the speed of light

36:20 But it still takes time. That's why you and I are hearing each other fairly instantaneously because we're close together, but it takes a few seconds for radio transmissions to reach the moon and even longer for them to reach Mars and longer for them to reach the farther reaches of the solar system and so on because they're traveling on waves. Now imagine for a moment when we're talking about waves that were talking about a child's jump rope And maybe it's a long jump rope. And if the child at one end jiggles the jump rope, it's going to take a second or so for that wave travel to the other end right? Correct. OK now imagine that the tightrope is taught and one child pulls on one end of the tightrope of the jump rope How long does it take for the other end of the jump rope to move its instant

37:18 It's instant. So in 1943, Brown writes a paper called The Structure of Space and in the structure of space he is describing space as that jump rope where there is some energetic quality that he's calling the structure of space which can be essentially tugged on So that communications starting in one place using this gravitational communications technology, those messages wind up at their destination instantly. That's one of the things that he demonstrated at Pearl Harbor

38:02 And the other thing which was discredited as the toy carnival ride, was the electric propulsion system based on his observations back at Caltech in the 1920's. So those two technologies according... Now I'm relying very heavily on what Morgan is telling me. Those two technologies were demonstrated to the Navy brass at Pearl Harbor in 1950 and And sometime shortly thereafter, they learn that there is somebody in that facility who is basically an agent for a soon to be revealed international spy named Philby. What was Philby's first name? Kim Philby!

38:52 And there's this whole 1950s spy conspiracy thing called the Cambridge Group, which are these various individuals from England who were sympathetic to the Soviet Union who were spying within the British intelligence apparatus on behalf of the Soviet Union. Kim Philby was kind of a leader of the group and an operative for Philby was present to witness these demonstrations at Pearl Harbor. When Townsend Brown learns of this. He utters one of the very few occasions in the story when we know he dropped an F-bomb, it was a fairly mild mannered individual but he got really upset about this pounds his fists on the table and says that what has happened here is tantamount to treason

39:41 And that's when he goes off on what we call the wounded prairie chicken routine, which is taken from the idea that a prairie chicken in order to fend off prey will pretend to be wounded so the prey will leave it alone. Right. And that's what he winds up doing, and I think part of the reason why the Brown story from the perspective of 2023 is so shrouded in mystery and doubt is because of his own efforts in the 1950s to make it seem like his work has no merit. And I wanted to fold in the German chapter two. There's just so many different, interesting threads to his life and we'll get into more in the second hour. I want to try to come full circle on the first, but this is something that I wanted to throw in. But Brown went to Germany in the 1940s and The story was that he was working on cracking German cryptography and ciphers. But here are some quotes from Morgan and O'Reilly that add context to that chapter

40:43 Dr. Brown had information about a propulsion system that the Germans were working on at the end of the war, I won't go into it specifically but i think you already know that it manifested itself by looking like well balls-of-light when I asked Morgan why this mild mannered civilian was jumping out of an airplane into the crumbling anarchy of the Third Reich he replied With your interest in Foo Fighters, you were getting much closer to the main reason T Townsend Brown wanted to be in Germany. Cipher machines were not the first thing on his particular laundry list. Dr. Brown often said that if you want to see how nature utilizes his force fields, that answer could be found in the plasma vortex sometimes called

41:26 ball lightning. So when reports of balls of light that seemed to be under intelligent control reached others in the military that were familiar with Brown's work, he was put immediately into the front of the search party and then Townsend told O'Reilly that the primary reason he was in Germany was to interview this electrical scientist William Stevenson to vet him and arrange to get him out of the country before the Russians got them so O'Reilly steps in to give you that tidbit and there's a lot there. I mean, he was investigating the Foo Fighters and this Ball Lightning transportation system on top of according to O'Reilly vetting a specific scientist for the US to take in under Project Paperclip. Damn! That's a lot of context

42:13 We must take a second to emphasize that when Townsend Brown went into Germany to investigate the Foo Fighters, he was not looking into David Grohl's rock and roll band. Right? But David Grohl's rock and roll band gets its name from this phenomenon that was observed in the skies over Germany in the closing months of World War II that were called The Foo Fighters And in the book I go into the various origins, derivations of the word foo. It's a French word for fire but these were as you say these were these fireballs which we're identified on numerous occasions in the skies over Germany at the end of World War II what they were? Wish I could tell ya.

42:59 But they were a frequently observed phenomenon that went away once the war ended. And as you say, the reason Brown parachuted from low altitude in behind enemy lines in the closing months of World War II was under the pretense of working on cryptology investigations but he also had a laundry list where he was trying to learn more about that mysterious phenomenon Yes. And I would suggest anyone who's even halfway interested in this sort of thing, read the book because you and Morgan specifically have a ton of correspondence. So then you say over 2000 emails were exchanged and I hang on every word this guy says because he's

43:49 seemingly part of the black budget projects and clandestine operations. And he just felt like you didn't have a lot to lose, I guess it was filling in all the holes to you when it comes to his story and just that sentence Dr Brown had information about a propulsion system that Germans were working on at the end of the war that manifested itself by looking like balls of light what the hell? There you go. Well, if we're wrapping up the first hour maybe I'll just cite for you the epigraph that opens The Man Who Mastered Graffity which is kind of the idea that guided me through this whole thing. I actually saw the quotation in a documentary called Isaac Newton and Me by Michio Kakao back around 2002 and i traced the origin of this quotation it is

44:40 the universe is filled with magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper. And I think that what we're talking about here are some of those magical things, and then we have to be asking the question about what does it take for our wits to get sharper? Yes indeed! That by the way is a quotation from one of the early deans of science fiction writing an author and playwright named Eden Philpott All right. Well, before we wrap a bow around the first hour there's two other threads I want to add to really stick the landing and one of them is summarizing this thread regarding his ion fan invention because it's an interesting tangent that ties into popular culture for people of my generation but talk to us about what this was and how it came to market eventually

45:36 Often when I am telling people the story that i'm working with here, I will start by asking have you ever heard of the ionic breeze air purifier? And most people will say they have. And then I will say that well the ionic breeze air purifier is based on an anomalous electrical effect that Townsend Brown discovered as a teenager in the 1920's And what I encountered was a school of people who believe that that technology, when applied with different materials produces a gravity control effect. So the two are somehow related but the technology within the ionic breeze air purifier

46:21 It is based on Townsend Brown's original discoveries. And he spent a good part of the 1950s and 60s, on the surface developing the device that Linda refers to as The Fan which was also allowed speaker very interesting technology And that eventually becomes the ionic breeze air purifier. And the story there is that in his retirement, Townsend Brown is living on Catalina Island when he's approached by a man named I believe was Jim Lee who has learned of Townsend Brown's experiments and is interested in manufacturing something based on the ideas in the Townsend Brown fam

47:07 So he approached Brown, they formed a partnership. Brown was doing some other work that he funded with the proceeds from the partnership And eventually, Jim Lee takes the Ionic Breeze air purifier to market based on what he had learned from Townsend Brown. He filed his own patents on the technology but he draws very heavily on the precedence in Townsend Brown's patents and getting his own patents which were then assigned to the Sharper Image and brought to market as the ionic breeze air purifier Right i think this is so interesting because everybody knows sharper image and all their wacky gadgets in this was one of their flagship products and. This is a paragraph by copied from the book but it's from linda and she says when brown showed,

47:54 The book says linda expected that the rand people would respond like all the others cuz he showing the ion fan to the rand corporation most people look absolutely stunned when dad turns on the power of the red ribbon leaps in action with nothing else moving and sidebar you retire read ribbentooth because it was silent so to show, air moves something was happening when we turn it on use this red ribbon but she goes on to say. Usually people looked absolutely stunned. But of course these men will know already that the fan is a space propulsion device in disguise Townsend put on his usual song and dance routine demonstrating the unit as both a fan and loudspeaker The fans showed off its magical ability to move air without any moving parts and produce remarkable audio fidelity without magnets or pulsating hearts so this is just really interesting because he has this long life

48:54 looking at this kind of off the books physics that really isn't in the academic mail you and he's trying to develop products based on his finally like you know what let's just do the fan but put a fan out there well make some money will leave something to the family and it'll be all good so we shows their hand corporation and they're like holy shit you're actually showing us something way more. Significant than a fan but your hiding it within a band that's something inoculus that can be taken to market so they knew what was going on and i think where it gets really interesting is that, teetowns and brown died of lung problems from ozone exposure at all these years of work with exotic

49:39 electro gravitic waves and so i'm reading your book and i'm thinking you know what i wanna get sharper images ionic breeze air purifier because i like this little story in this hidden nugget of knowledge i'm gonna get one of these things and i look it up but its like oh actually Sharper image went bankrupt over a class action lawsuit, over this very fan because many people developed lung problems and things like asthma. And that class action lawsuit crushed the company and it's like there's karma for you. You stole this product from the guy and now your whole company has gone under because of your shady tactics. I just think that's an interesting story

50:25 It is. But for wrapping up the hour, can I toss in one more anecdote about demonstrating the fan? Sure! And then I'm going to bring in the Farnsworth tie-in as well but talk to us about the fan. Okay so again I'm gonna refer to this movie that's coming out this summer about Oppenheimer and one of the antagonists in the Oppenheimer story is a man named Edward Teller who was known as the father of the hydrogen bomb And Teller and Oppenheimer clashed over whether or not we should go on and develop the hydrogen bomb, which by the way is an uncontrolled nuclear fusion process. So at some point after

51:06 Brown has demonstrated the fan for some capitalists and well-connected people in Southern California. He is asked to demonstrate it for Edward Teller, and he takes it up to Northern California because I think Teller was living in the Berkeley area at the time. And Teller walks around the fan and he sees the air moving and he sees the ribbons blowing out from the baffles. And he says... He asks for a picture." And Brown means what do you mean? Well, he wanted a schematic of it He said, I don't understand what makes it work. And his wife said to Linda you have no idea how satisfying it is to hear him say that. I like it and so yes there are a lot more questions and added details I want to get into in the second hour but because... Yeah there was something there that even one of the greatest physicists of all time didn't comprehend but there it was right in front of his eyes

52:01 Right, right. Sometimes we don't know how it works but he just knew it worked. Well there is a synchronicity between your two books so with Philo T Farnsworth the boy who invented television he was kind of self-educated self directed inventor with very little resources and not only as he responsible and undercredited for one most ubiquitous technologies in society the TV also worked on something else after the TV that that ties in nicely with T Townsend Brown's archives that you were able to access in the second book. And I would speculate, being the guy that I am, that this is also a large component as to why Philo's name is left out of the story because I don't think people... You know, the big people, they want anyone to stumble upon his other invention, this fusion device. Talk to us about this and how the two books tie together?

52:59 I was talking to somebody about the story last night, and so I'll share with you what came to me last night. It was the place where these two stories, Philo T. Farnsworth and Townsend Brown dovetail together. So yes, what you're talking about with the Philo T. Farnsworth story is first of all bear in mind that Farnsworth was born in 1906, the year after Einstein's Annus Mirabilis Both Townsend Brown and Philo T. Farnsworth have their seminal conceptions at around the same time in the early 1920's as teenagers, so there is that synchronicity between the stories but in the second half of his life

53:41 Philo Farnsworth began to draw on discoveries that he had made in his laboratories in the 1930's, where he saw what appeared to be a plasma suspended in a very high amplification tube that he had developed. And while the rest of the world is focused on what's happening out Los Alamos and the building of the atomic bomb, Farnsworth directs his energy toward the concept of controlled nuclear fusion Now fusion has gotten a little bit of attention here in the last year or so because of big experiment that happened in Berkeley where they professed to have achieved a greater than break-even fusion reaction and I've got some thoughts about that but we don't have to go there yet. The point is

54:25 simply that Farnsworth devoted himself to a nuclear fusion process and in the early 1960's was, in fact able to sustain a controlled nuclear fusion reaction. Now he is not getting more energy out of it than his going into it but the reactions are sustained for several minutes at a time which was a thorough breakthrough and the efforts to control nuclear fusion and his interest in that derives from the idea fusion can ever be controlled and mastered. It's going to take human civilization to a whole new level, the likes of which we can barely conceive." That's one of those universe-of-magical things like Eden Philpott is talking about

55:09 But finding the answer to the riddle eludes humanity. The riddle is how do you control a star? Because fusion reaction is basically a synthetic star, what container can you build that is not either melted by the heat of the star or cool... The stars cooled by the container and I contend that Farnsworth solved that riddle in the 1960's And he would share with his colleagues and friends, his vision for what the world would be like when fusion was mastered. Where it's pertinent to this discussion is the way he described how space travel would work. Now Farnsworth as early as the 1920s is promising his newlywed wife that they're going to travel to the stars someday and she says she'll go with him because she doesn't want to be anywhere where he isn't but

55:58 That continued to be one of the driving visions of his life. And here's how he described space travel in the 20th century, you look at a launch vehicle like the Saturn V that took Apollo to the moon and he described that as a launch vehicle the size of a pineapple carrying a payload the size of a pea And he believed that when fusion became practical, those relationships would be reversed. And with a launch vehicle the size of a pea you would be able to lift payload the size of pineapple

56:40 So, just keep in mind that that was Philo Farnsworth's vision for travel among the cosmos at the point where fusion energy has been mastered. And where it dovetails with the Townsend Brown story is in the story of his courting his wife in the 1920s—her name was Josephine—and he took her on a sailing expedition on Buckeye Lake in central Idaho He had already shared with her some of his ideas about what was possible in this realm of electric propulsion and gravity control. And he says to Josephine that at some time in the future, mankind will be able to push away from the Earth as easily as his boat pushed away from the dock. That's where the two stories tie together because even though Philo Farnsworth never spoke about gravity control

57:37 you can see where what he's describing is, what Brown is describing as a way of controlling the forces involved so that rather than having a giant fireball launch a cylinder into the sky we are manipulating the forces and gravity in order to simply push away from the Earth. Yes. And romance and wooing women take up much of men's time guilty as charged myself, but another aspect to this is that T-towns and Browns flying saucers apparently they worked and were demonstrated, but they needed to be tethered to a power source. They had to be basically plugged in so the real challenge was well how do we get a power source on the craft? And you had found in

58:29 in Brown's archive at least one page referencing Philo T. Farnsworth device, so maybe the wheels were turning that if he could get Farnsworth fusion device which was the size of a briefcase onto the craft voila there is the missing part to get the electro-gravitic craft flying without the cable Yeah, the case that I'm making here and here's where i have to emphasize that I'm not a physicist but I play one on the internet. The unifying theory of these two stories for me is that in its perfected state fusion energy is capable of generating megawatts from a power plant not much larger than an internal combustion engine

59:22 So now you've got something light enough that if you wanted to put it on a craft, you could use that technology to do that. And those high voltage energy fields are what would be connected to Brown's gravity control apparatus in order to begin to have a different form of propulsion. Does that add up for you? Yeah, yeah. For sure I would agree. Oh man Paul! I really loved this i think it's an instant classic for us and you should be proud of the work you've done here You've added so much context to the missing parts of T Townsend Brown story and corrected the record on Philo T Farnsworth

1:00:04 adding in his major accomplishments and fusion. I am honored to help elevate your work even just a little bit, and i hope that it's recognized more widely and an avalanche of interview requests follows this one for you but before we go give people all the info they need to follow up because you have quite a few domains out there okay i'll give you three or four of them that are pertinent to the conversation The Townsend Brown website, where we have a discussion board with people who are adding even more to our background of knowledge on this in a forum there is simply ttbrown.com I've been maintaining a site for many years, for the Farnsworth material at farnovision.com and nice story about the origin of that name. Years ago when we were trying to get the movie or television off the ground an agent who we were working with simply posed the question well if this was invented by a man named Farnsworth why don't we call it Farnovision?

1:01:04 And so I adopted that for the name of the file of Farnsworth website. It's farnovision.com and then there is also fusor.net, which is the gathering place for people who are building nuclear fusion reactors in their basements and garages. What about waterstarproject.com? Oh thanks for bringing that up! I'm sorry I neglected that. Waterstarproject.com is sort of my fantasy realm That's where I've gathered some of the information relating specifically to the Farnsworth experience and my understanding of it. There is an account there, of my very first exposure to this material in 1973 but this fantasy that i have that maybe somebody will hear

1:01:52 where tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars are being invested in these new fusion experiments like the Helion Company, I imagine putting together a kind of an endowment of 75 to 100 million dollars which we might call the Excalibur Endowment. I imagine that when Farnsworth turned his back on this fusion research that he essentially put the sword in the stone and at some time The rightful king will come and draw the sword from the stone. And so my idea is that we should have an endowment that can fund experiments with the Farnsworth fuser, where people have an idea of something they want to experiment with. We actually have one on the fusers that we could modify and build. So rather than having an exhaustible source of venture capital, when it's gone, it's gone. We can continue to nurse the work that's being done around Farnsworth approach diffusion for as long as it takes for our wits to get sharper."

1:02:54 I think that's a great idea. So, that's what the Water Star Project is it's an unstarted Kickstarter project to raise about 100 million bucks! Oh well... I don't know if we can help on that as much as we might be able to help with the archives that are fragmented, that you mentioned. I just wanted you to hit that one more time so that everybody hears it but you can't recover some of these files with your conversations with not only Morgan but also Brown's daughter? You said they're kind of corrupted or fragmented files through a program called Eudora elaborate on that one more time

1:03:29 Well, they're not corrupted but they are in a format that is now obsolete. Remember I gathered all this information between 2003 and 2008 and a good example is on a lot of the notes that I kept, I kept it in a program called Microsoft OneNote and Microsoft OneNote still exists but it's incompatible with the files that I have, that I did save. So I have all the files but I can't open them because in order to open them, I first have to find a version of Microsoft OneNote from about 2007 or 2011 and I have to open in that format and import into another format so that I can import into another format in order to export into the format they're using today

1:04:17 You with me? Yeah, yeah. Barely but that's how they do things. And that's a cultural issue because there is a lot of history that's wrapped up in files and we can't recover and I'll leave that to the Smithsonian figure out. I'm sure they'll share their results so Eudora what is Eudora? Eudora was an email program it was Windows based on the windows system until 2007. Eudora was simply the email program that I was using for all this correspondence And I did export all the folders and a couple of them, I have been able to open but they opened in a spreadsheet and they're filled with HTML tags. A little hard to read like it but the data is there. I need the help of kind of a digital historian to pull it all out. Okay? Do you want to let that digital historian if they're listening know how to contact you

1:05:09 Author at ttbrown.com Okay, well I think this goes out to enough people who know enough other people that someone can help with that and it's going to be an amazing thing when that happens but i love It thank you for doing what you do maybe we can compare our joint rolling skills someday but until then take care all right Thank You so much Yes, people drenching us with the cosmic fire hose. This is almost everything I like in a THC interview someone you probably haven't heard an interview with before about a body of work that also doesn't get as much attention as it should It's nice to appreciate the work of a person who should be better recognized than they are it gives us some unique insights into alternative energy gravity controlling vehicles and

1:06:03 Insights into those who weave between the worlds and a little bit of a peek behind the big curtain. It all just folds in so many different things that THC is about I'm also really hoping that someone can help Paul with his defunct format files, so he can get them open and access more of the material that built the book And i hate to sound like a salesman but there IS some stuff in The Plus Show that's just mind-blowing! I wouldn't lie to you plus listeners hear the same wrap up But Morgan basically says something I've been thinking about every day since which is essentially that the Caroline group has the ability to interact with people in a way that they think they had a dream but it was a genuine experience maybe in a shifted dimension,

1:06:53 But they can visit someone as bright as T Townsend Brown and his daughter in a UFO, are then described as humanoid. And the experiencers start their next day thinking whatever that experience was...was a dream I mean that's saying this Caroline group is a breakaway civilization or is integrated with non-human entities It's one of the wildest things I think has ever been said on this show Or at least i can say it's as close as we've gotten to a person that would be in this sort of network because morgan told the stop all and of course we talk to paul so that's pretty close. Paul also of course had a ton of correspondence with browns daughter linda and she experienced it so i thought this event let's call it,

1:07:43 It was so fascinating. I went looking around for Linda Brown and i found a Reddit AMA she did nine years ago, basically right when Paul was in the thick of it with this book and let me read you something plus members will have more context but I just gave you the gist either way And so Linda does this AMA, this ask-me anything under the username Rittenhouse funny enough which is just interesting because that's a name that became a thing in recent years But again, this is nine years ago so I don't think she's obsessed with the case or something. But i want to read two questions from it and her answers here we go Flytape asks Linda I'd like to know about breakaway civilizations do you think your dad was being courted by such a group have you ever been invited into such a group if your dad was invited to such a group Was he double-crossed and left out after they had gained privilege of his knowledge?

1:08:40 Linda responds, Flytape I'm just now learning about the expression called breakaway civilizations and i don't think i'm really qualified to answer your question right now. I do know that starting in the 30s dad's life was greatly influenced by very powerful men it was his choice to stay in the shadows but i think that he has accomplished a lot that is still to be revealed especially with the navy developments. I have met such a group Didn't notice any invitations, however. Maybe I was grandfathered in but no dad was not double crossed by this group they remained loyal to him and still are i believe so that's not a big deal just interesting kind of confirms a lot of the stuff we talked about here but then we have this weird back and forth where a guy describes his own encounter and Linda responds with her own version of the dreamlike encounter that I just referenced

1:09:36 Black Triangle says, hey Linda thanks for taking the time to answer our questions. Can you tell us more about the entities your dad spoke of? You mentioned that they could control our perception and perhaps we are not ready for contact two years ago I had a close encounter with a silent black triangle during the sighting and for about an hour afterwards i was in telepathic contact With the entity that was controlling the craft did your father tell you anything about this sort of thing or have you experienced anything like it personally. Someone else chimes in wow can you tell us more about this entity thanks for joining the conversation and they come back and say alright,

1:10:16 It's an incredibly loaded experience but I'll try to give you the short version. Some context, I live on the 12th floor Sighting occurred while looking out my kitchen window around 1am The UFO was a black equilateral triangle with red light on each corner In the center it had pulsating white light As the triangle hovered absolutely still about 30 meters away from me across the street I looked directly into the center light It seemed to be transmitting emotions directly to me It felt like an extremely intense hello, like an introduction or a warm welcome. Suddenly the corners of the triangle broke apart and it stopped being a triangle... ...and instead two of the red lights spun around each other out to space in about 2 seconds! The third light seemed to transform into a classic silver saucer that moved horizontally in a straight line at steady pace

1:11:09 Afterwards, I looked up at the night sky and could see several red lights around a star. They were not orbiting the star but also changing speed and direction As I looked up at the quote star, I'm asking for an explanation about what just happened Of course there is no physical entity in the room with me so i am really just focusing my attention on the occupant of the triangle It definitely seemed capable of communicating emotions to me so I figured out would just try to send a message back. This is where things get really weird and difficult to explain The star becomes the center of the all-seeing eye and i can see the triangle around it this is the strongest presence I've ever felt! It seemed organic as I could see the eye move around a little bit, it was definitely looking back straight at me when this was over I just sat in my kitchen table heart racing trying to calm down

1:12:02 I closed my eyes and after a few minutes, I could see an image of the being's face in my third eye. I had my eyes open but i could see an overlay that of vibrant colors The entity was facing me directly it had the shape of a gray alien big tilted eyes very large head its color was something like deep blue or purple I didn't see the bean for very long, it was probably 3-5 minutes. However it felt like it was giving me a lot of information... ...like an intense upload of information into my brain that I didn't fully comprehend It's been 2 and half years since my sighting and I've done a lot of research into the experience since. I've also been trying to comprehend and work through the information I was given

1:12:46 I could perhaps go into that in detail in a different post if you're interested but the core of it has to do with frequency and amplitude and some pretty neat things we could do around manipulating matter. In my research, I found a lot of commonalities with my experience and what people have reported about psychedelic experiences And in case you were wondering...I've never taken any hallucinogenic drugs Well this was the short version If you want more details or have any questions feel free to ask Now Linda jumps in And she says, I just want you to continue to communicate with some of us who are trying to get to the bottom of understanding sightings such as yours. You have not been alone at all in this kind of experience when you get a chance can you tell me more about the colors that you are seeing when this happens? Are they connected to the information or do you sense that the colors and information are somehow separate? Can you better describe the tones of the colors? Do they change trying to ask questions without leading the witness if you know what i mean

1:13:46 It may be that what you are quote seeing as part of this is an image that has been manufactured for our public image of what an alien should look like. I'm not sure exactly when the gray body style showed up in our consciousness, the big slanted eyes and pale skin but in the 50s they yammered on about little green men today some are mentioning reptilians but I suspect this all just a handle to help us see something way beyond our ability to comprehend And then she says, with my dream experience which is what I realize now was not a dream. I saw what looked like humanoid figures but for some unknown reason for me their faces were blurred and the one figure i nicknamed the captain looked like every picture of Jesus I had ever seen but with red hair A red headed bearded man with a kind face and green eyes. I remember looking into his eyes and not being afraid anymore

1:14:45 But how else would you calm a nearly hysterical frightened child? Project a very familiar figure. It worked! So I thought this was worth relaying, it is material that really speaks to that space between alien visitation consciousness and things that feel like they might have been dreams but i think it's wild that more people aren't going nuts about this I think Paul's book and this nine-year old AMA are just going unnoticed by a lot of researchers who should probably be talking to Paul and Linda, trying to find out more about the so called Caroline group from these threads. Probably gonna try to interview Linda myself because she could shed a lot of insight on T Townsend Browne's life AND is an experiencer! Hell she kinda even dated one of the guys...I guess

1:15:39 But researchers like Chris Knowles, who know a lot about RCA and Marconi and that whole history could probably connect a lot more dots than I can by talking to Paul or by combing through all the details in Paul's book. So I loved it a lot then i also learned this whole other thing about Philo T Farnsworth and his fusion device very fun interview I thought the tie in between the two books and the story of the ionic breeze air purifier together made for a good tidy place for the first hour to end. And then, of course we went deeper with the things i mentioned but also further elaborations on farnsworth's tabletop fusion device

1:16:21 What Farnsworth's son says is missing from the patent filing. Why Farnsworth walked away from this research? William Moore and the Philadelphia experiment tie in with T Townsend Browne. Morgan's comments on travel through multiple dimensions, Browne's comments to Morgan about time travel, the question of who is really suppressing this science, Paul's thoughts on the David Grush disclosures Something that T-Townsend Brown worked on late in his life, Project Xerxes, electricity and rocks. So sign up for PLUS at thehiresidechats.com or click the link in the show notes Of course as you know it doesn't have to cost anything if you just want to hear a couple specific episodes in full because signing up for PLUS starts with a free 7 day trial I just hope that you'll stick around but If you like this kind of stuff today is a day to treat yourself to more

1:17:18 You know, Paul mentioned Morgan saying they'd eventually sit around a fire on Richard Branson's Necker Island. The billionaire who got rich off the Virgin brand? Well do some research into him and his connections to Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell and where his island is because it's another one of the British Virgin Islands just like Little St James And they're only about 30 miles apart! It goes without saying that just because your neighbor is doing something terrible doesn't mean you are But one of the billionaires dumping money into the space race might have a few connections to the breakaway civilization and all sorts of things that go on behind the curtain. And I mean, hey Morgan seemed to think he was welcome there anytime anyway. I got pretty hyped on this interview. I appreciate Paul's work and I was psyched to get this out to you guys. I hope you liked it in higher side news Of course we just started trying to bring back The Money Bomb

1:18:17 It's a little bit of a different way to bring it back, but instead of buying an ad on another show or trying my luck with another marketing agency. I figured I'd just give out 500 bucks a show to a random listener and ask that collectively we do what we can as an audience for a bit of a boost and just see what happens well, as I said, To be on the list for the chance to get at that 500 bucks you got to be a plus member or sign up for the newsletter which never really comes out But I will pick a random email before I release the show and i'll reach out if it's you. And I got a decent amount of people saying that they liked the idea let's try to crowd source that marketing role and keep it all in house decentralized but less than 500 people signed up for the newsletter, and there was no noticeable bumping plus members so I don't know maybe not a ton of excitement right out of the gate as for the promotional bump aspects

1:19:17 Not a lot there either now i appreciate people's thoughts but i got it on the emails about hey you should do this instead or you should get us some bumper stickers and. Anything that gives the show above is nice but we are past trying to get people to listen, or subscribe one at a time i can't say i've ever looked at a bumper sticker and thought i need to follow up on that So I think we need bigger bang for the buck type of stuff, which is really using the connections. We have as a group to get me on to bigger shows, which brings new ears to THC thousands at a time that's why in the pitch, I mentioned marketing agencies managers and agents they usually do the pushing of their people onto these big podcasts

1:20:03 But I thought maybe we could collectively mobilize to do a similar thing instead of paying these kinds of people, which i just won't really do anyway. Representation is not for me but that's really the thing that would move the needle! Of course financially any promotional campaign hopes to break even plus a little extra and that would be 375 new Plus Members That's the pass-fail for this project in a nutshell If we get 375 new plus members in 30 days through any and all sorts of promotion or just simply having more people who have been long time free listeners sign up, then me giving away 2500 bucks this month makes sense. And I'll do it again next month if we fall short then i tried something different and clearly im not going to keep throwing money at something that isn't working

1:20:58 So if you support the mission of me giving 500 bucks a show away, become a plus member or at least put your email in the newsletter form so that you're in the running. And let's try to give The Higher Side Chats a boost and make more people aware of what we do around here and the wide range of knowledge from a vast number of guests but either way congrats to the first winner it all happened so fast here's what she had to say Hey Greg, this is Allison the most recent Money Bomb winner and first I want to say thank you to you your podcast and all of the plus members who made something like this possible. It's really exciting and really unexpected i've been a member for so long and gotten so many emails from THC that I scrolled past this email five or six times before it occurred to me why

1:21:52 Why is he emailing me about the money bomb winner when he would just tell us on the show and then I realized I don't think i've heard about money bomb in a long time so, I hadn't even listened to your most recent episode about the marketing funds bringing back money bomb. So, I clicked on the email to see what this was all about and that's when I learned I was the winner which is really exciting and really unexpected really cool! Thank you and like I said it's so many emails because I've been a member for so long and I mean back to the Michael Tisarian Crow triple seven early days

1:22:27 Some of my favorite guests on your show have been Michael Wan, Howdy Minkowski, Chris Knowles, Whitney Webb and Phoenix Aurelius. They're all so different and had such a different story to tell and information to offer, and I learned something really cool from all of them. My most favorite recent episodes would be Dr. Narco Longo for Old World Florida, and Elisa Ede with Our Lives After MK Ultra or MK Ultra is the name of her book

1:23:03 Because they both have the connections to Florida and I'm in Florida's where I live is Tampa Bay It's really really hot here. And so I think what I'm gonna do with this money is splurge Kick my AC down a notch for a couple of days or pay the bill, some of the money is really high in my house. Buy myself a fancier bottle of bourbon than I normally would and I might hit the dispensary and relax and listen to some THC episodes in my very cool house with a very nice bourbon and something from the local dispensary here

1:23:43 So that's what I'll probably do with the money. And I really just want to say thank you, it was unexpected and really cool and such a fun thing to do! And I appreciate it so much. There we have it very cool how really strange that it's a person who lives in Tampa which is where I just moved but thank you for the support by being a longtime Plus member She said she gets a lot of emails from me, but maybe she meant email receipts for Plus because I don't really send emails. But anyway that's one down we'll see if i can find any measurable way to discern if this is working this week or not but i will be picking another winner in just a couple of days either way so watch your emails as for the meetup calendar at highersidemeetups.com here's what's on deck

1:24:36 June 11th we got one in Pensacola, Florida. June 15th Brooklyn New York. June 22nd Warren Indiana also June 22nd Los Angeles and June 23rd London get in there people it's a nice opportunity to meet locals over a mutual love of the higher side chats RSVP for an event near you or just make your own But that said, big thanks to Paul. Great episode if you ask me pick up his books drop him a line help him open those damn files I know we can do it but that's it for me I'm out of here Your move secret science suppressors exotic energy erasers and colluders of the Caroline group your fucking move From space it was falling its light started calling It's making crop circles again

1:25:30 Just as I was looking up it showed me all the hidden stuff And now i'm all enlightened and zen Nothing mass is this hard Silver ships are Now, I'm not asleep Don't obey the elite Got a beam to the head How I start to wonder? Now we're not the sheep that they bred us to be Got a beam to the head Now we start to wonder Now we start to wander See a new pair of corruption in crime Since the visitors set me straight I encourage you to go When you see the saucers glow On my wep awake The masses is hard Silver ships circ by yard Now were not asleep Don't hope elite Got a beam to the head

1:26:46 Now we start to wonder, no we're not the sheep that there is to be. Being to the- now we start to wonder! Now we start to wonder! We'll see these things up in the sky just as the system starts to die. Balls fade in and next round they'll erase till it's time we

1:27:38 Cause we're not the sheep that they feed to the hay Now we start to wonder, now were not asleep cause we got THC! Now we start to wonder... so