Nick Redfern | Conspiracy Fallout: Suspicious Deaths & Missing Files

00:00 Hey Greg, I just wanted to say that I loved the episode with Robert Morningwood. Probably the best episode and I think I've listened to most of them. Need to get that guy on again and do about a 6 hour episode. I'll listen to the whole damn thing! Thanks bye In the 1930s, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed a nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the Fireside Chats. His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times but we're far from 1930 and I deal with a different kind of fire For a new era of worldly frustration We offer a fresh conversation! I'm Greg Carlwood These are The Hireside Chats

00:47 Hallelujah Hireside Chatters, we are back in the saddle drinking my drink smoking my smoke from sunny San Diego I'm Greg Carlwood and i am so psyched to finally be launching THC Plus with this show So people who have subscribed for $5 a month will be able to hear two hours today Thanks so much for helping me out by the way. And if you're listening through traditional means, the free show will be a one hour show! But this is great to launch with Nick Redfern the amazing author and researcher that I'm sure all of you know is here and today every conspiracy we talk about involves either some missing files or strange deaths. These are two factors that often times are missed because the files or people don't go missing.

01:34 Sometimes until years after the events or while the shadowy puppet masters are out there doing some cleanup that nobody's paying attention to. Some of these cases we talk about are really new to me and are pretty interesting, and some of the conspiracies we talk about our pretty legendary also but even on something like Roswell even though I've heard this story 1000 times i still wonder if it's a real space alien story. Of course I lean towards yes, but it can't really be proven at this point That said when you hear about files that have been taken or destroyed and a series of witness deaths and stuff that can be proven It forms a stronger and stronger case And that's what this episode is largely about and both hours contain some great stories Wilhelm Reich Marilyn Monroe and Alistair Crowley Oh my

02:21 I also want to throw out there that I'm looking for more theme songs and more independent artists and bands that want to hear their own music on THC outros, so I'm trying to set up an archive to use and avoid copywritten music because a show of this nature specifically really shouldn't have such huge vulnerability like that, and so we're going to fight the system by making our own archive of usable music by the artists and fans that like the show. So you can read more about it at thehiresidechats.com slash music or you could just submit your own tunes to the show via email at mymusiconthc at gmail dot com

03:00 And if we get a lot of music in there, you know We have a lot of fans that have submitted stuff over the years It just gets so convoluted with all the emails I get. I miss things...I lose things But having it all at this email having only this email dedicated to accepting song submissions it's gonna make it so much easier and if it gets bigger I see no reason why we shouldn't open it up to other shows. Because putting such huge prices on mainstream copywritten music is just a system to ensure that huge networks and companies like Sony Music, Universal, Paramount...

03:35 These companies have access to things we independent artists don't have access to and can't get access to, and it's clearly the most popular well-produced music available. So that puts a ceiling on independent artists in the same way that a large amount of regulations and red tapes and liquor licenses keep people from being able to open restaurants and compete with the big boys in the big chains that have already solved those problems nationwide So I don't like that shit. So, I'm gonna try to circumvent it and I hope you're with me and I hope the artists out there also appreciate the chance to be on a national global stage And it doesn't cost them anything! I think its a win-win. So let's do the damn thing The Money Bomb is still growing strong If you want to hear the extended show and haven't signed up yet please go to thehiresidechatsplus.com It supports me keeps a roof over my head and keeps the good times flowing

04:30 But let's just get down to it and dive right into a ocean of weirdness, in A Sea Of Strange Coincidence with Nick Redfern. When I find myself in times of trouble Mr. Carwood comes to me speaking words of wisdom THZ Alright folks, as you well know when we're talking about things like extraterrestrial contact high-profile assassinations and secret mind control programs You get many different perspectives and angles to these stories And it's very hard to get any type of absolute proof. Add in the fact that the keepers of these secrets actively employ disinformation agents To throw us off the scent and it makes you wonder if will ever know the truth

05:13 Well today's guest, the returning champion of THC appearances is Nick Redfern. The author and investigator very well known for his level-headed approach to fringe research in subjects like cryptozoology UFOs and government secrets he has released two books since his last appearance on the show For Nobody's Eyes Only Missing Government Files & Hidden Archives that document the truth behind most enduring conspiracy theories And Close Encounters of the Fatal Kind, Suspicious Deaths, Mysterious Murders and Bizarre Disappearances in UFO History. We're about to talk about both of them today! Lots of interesting info contained within those pages I know i'm psyched to have him here The ladies love him The guys wanna be him Nick Red for my man How the hell are ya? Hey Greg, doing good thanks. Doing alright? Good.

06:10 wider scope and looking to see if there's been either some strange deaths associated with events or evidence that has been deleted or removed files. And those are huge indications that there is more to some of these stories than the cover stories would suggest, is that kind of approach you had in mind? Yeah, well when I'm writing any book you want to be able to bring something new to the reader. If they're going out and spend $15 on a book then you want to provide something new and of course people say what could be said about Roswell for example? Hasn't it already been said?

06:46 Well, it sort of depends on how you look into it and how you dig into it. And that's why with For Nobody's Eyes Only instead of just doing an overview of the case I did a study... The chapter in that book is a study of how we can prove that certain files on the case and certain files from the Roswell Base Room about crucial period of 47 have gone. Then in the new book Close Encounters of Fatal Kinds that deals with again not an overview of the case but a study of people who died under mysterious circumstances in connection with the case so that's what i always try and do whatever the subject is even if it's old subjects you trying bring something new pencil worthwhile to the rate

07:32 Yeah, man and you do a great job. I mean you write more books than anyone I know that's why we've had you on so many times You've always got new material and it it can be challenging probably to find new angles But I mean you do a great job I'm surprised there's actually so much crossover in subjects between the two books because many of these topics have dead bodies and missing documents which is Kind of funny Yeah, well a lot of it is I kind of take sort of the same approach. My background is in regular journalism so I tend to take the same approach to investigating Roswell or Rendlesham Forest as I would any kind of story you know if it was a local murder or fraud case that a magazine or newspaper wanted me to cover that. I use the same techniques and

08:25 If you sort of go looking and instead of just relying on the internet or whatever, and you think it's all there because well it is on the internet so obviously all that. Provided you don't take that approach then actually isn't difficult to come up with other information, it just means you got a sort of be persistent Yeah, I get that and well let's go ahead and dive into some of this stuff man. I think Roswell is a great place to start because it pops up in both books And you've uncovered several interesting side plots to the Roswell saga, and it contains a combo of strange deaths and missing files But let's start with the sexy stuff The Strange Deaths one that then I thought was pretty interesting was the story of Glenn Davis and his mystery nurse Can you tell us about how that unfolded?

09:13 Yeah, well there's a lot of people over the years have come forward with varying accounts in relation to what happened at Roswell and many of them didn't come forward until sort of literally decades later. I mean Roswell was 47 some of these people didn't come forward till like to was actually the mortuary assistant at the Ballard Funeral Home in the town of Roswell, in the summer of 47. And he got this weird phone call out of the blue from The Base asking if you've got any small caskets, child-sized caskets and they were after like four or five of them and he clearly realized there isn't something in a little sleepy town as it was back then aside from The Base that's not the sort of thing you hear every day so he realized

10:17 something unusual had happened. And so what Glenn Dennis did, he drove out to the base and he said there was all sorts of stuff going on and people running around and clearly something major was going down when it stopped and said you know I'm got a call from the mortuary assistant They let him through, they assumed that somebody had called him to the base. Which actually wasn't the case he'd just gone there on his own volition so to speak and when he got there he met a nurse of his, a friend of his who was a nurse at the base and she actually came into at one side said you've got to get out and she basically confided in the bones of a story which was that some strange bodies have been found in the desert small humanoid bodies nobody knew what they were everywhere they were from all I know like a large field of wreckage had been found on these small bodies and that's really all they knew

11:15 So they brought the bodies in for study and she told Glenn Dennis that you've got to get out of here. Now, Glenn Dennis did tell a few friends about this who have since come forward and they confirmed that he'd told them sort of 48-49 but then he went totally quiet and said nothing until 89. And it was in 1989 that Glenn Dennis finally decided to speak out and confided in a couple of UFO researchers And what happened was that the story then sort of got bigger and bigger, and Glenn Dennis didn't want to reveal the nurse's name. He wanted his story out because he thought it was important and he wanted people to know how we got the story

11:57 But he sort of obfuscated and skirted around the edges when people asked for her real name. He used a pseudonym for Naomi Self, and he said well when people asked is that her real name? It's up to you to look into it, that kind of thing. And over the years because he didn't reveal the name it became hard to figure out who it was. Well, the family have a woman named Miriam Bush who wasn't a nurse at The Base but she actually did hold

12:34 uh... major uh... medical position at the base she was executive secretary of the by hospital and shea uh... family about you go on the record a stating that literally right days after roswell occurred she told her family to store that cd strange bodies in they're brought it and she got to see everything in their resort or horrible and terrifying to look at and almost certainly maryam bush was now we felt the the certain in that clinton is created now it turns out that like a part of a lot of the people who were on site at roswell and but not just the guys who sort when i got a flight from pick the wreckage up to the one two really work supposed to pretty much before picture like mayambush teacher descended into

13:22 like a, not psychotic but like a psychological collapse where she had like a nervous breakdown. She became very stressed became very paranoid and probably with a lot of reason that she was being watched and followed and she descended into complete alcoholism. And by 1989 when Glen Dennis surfaced, she was in her late 60's then And she actually told her family that she thought someone was watching her even more now. She didn't really elaborate on why, but she was sure that somebody was either trying to find or track it down as if they'd lost track of her over the years and a life is in danger

14:05 Well, on one particular day in late 1989 she checked into a motel under her sister's name and address. She was found the next morning dead in the hotel room with a plastic bag over her head and bruises on her arms. Her family have spoken out stating that they felt there was something suspicious about this. What is intriguing She killed herself just before the end of 1989, or was killed I should say. And Glenn Dennis only went public with his story about three months earlier so in other words he went public with a story but not the name and it was right around that time that Ben Shih said this sort of surveillance angle of somebody trying to find her

14:51 really increased big time and I think somebody knew that she was possibly one of the last people left who could really blow the lid on the whole thing. You know, not just guys picking up strange wreckage in a desert where you know the government could say well it was just weather balloon materials but somebody who actually was a very credible person and who could say yes I saw the bodies and this is what they were like. So her death is sort of very, very suspicious one." Yeah, I would say so! She's a prime candidate because she has a medical background... she saw the bodies... yeah that would be a problem for people who wanted to keep this stuff a secret but just like her there were

15:33 A lot of people involved that seem to have long-term alcohol abuse problems, eating disorders, mental breakdowns... ...seem to be a lot of stress induced people who only saw apparently a weather balloon right? Well yeah I mean another one of the ones who died. Not necessarily to speak for myself but... viciously in the sense of being murdered but just suspiciously by showing what you said that he was just a weather balloon it would happen with uh... with the bankers on the rancher matt brazell who were the foster branch in lincoln county where the wreckage and reportedly the bodies was found um... here to send my brother brasil at the time of the crash burn was only like eight years old but used to help his dad on the back she always enjoyed

16:15 sort of going around and rounding up the cattle or the sheep or whatever. And he apparently, the rumor is that he and his dad actually stumbled upon not just a wreckage but possibly one or more decomposing bodies in the deserts and it had majorly traumatic effects on both of them which is not surprising And so the story is that it sort of very psychologically affected him. When he became legally old enough, he actually left New Mexico Roswell behind him, traveled around a little bit almost like on the road, so to speak ended up in California and blew his brains out with a pistol when he was just like 23

17:01 and again but will probably never really know the full story behind firm but i mean he does sound like somebody who is sort of psychologically scarred another one uh... with another person who also sort of um... so it descended into uh... whole angle of alcoholism as well. And again, this just sort of demonstrates it wasn't just one person. This was a guy named Dee Proctor who again was just young at the time of the event and again sort of plunged into a state where he developed alcoholism and also an eating disorder and died at a young and tragic age

17:41 you know, essentially became like a hermit refusing to talk about anything to do with the crash and sort of lived almost like a paranoid fear-filled life as well. Yeah there's a long list of those it's pretty compelling anecdotal evidence that something serious happened but another aspect that shows that The Weather Balloon cover story is probably a bit flimsy comes from The book of missing files and the story of Congressman Stephen Schiff who he did exactly what I would want to do if i was elected office which is try to unearth some dirt on the Roswell crash but tell us a little bit about his story and his trouble with trying to find the files.

18:19 Yeah, well sure. Well Stephen Schiff you make a good point there he could do what nobody in the UFO field can do. You know he was a congressman and had the ability to open doors and push people and influence people so on and uh... one of the things he did because it was a concert for new mexico we had a lot of constituents who said you know my grandfather was involved in a team indecent event i was threatened and silenced or already some adult artist themselves told him look yet this is what we saw um... and we want to put the record straight because we retired military people america you know ready to book instead but whatever

18:59 So what Congressman Schmidt did, he approached what today is called the Government Accountability Office but back in 1994 it was called the General Accounting Office. The GAO is a very powerful organization and literally has the ability to essentially knock on the door of any government agency and say we want to see your files on this subject or that subject to see if there's been proper rules and regulations and accountability followed. And so what the GAO did, it wasn't so much an investigation of the crash but it was more

19:35 any files you've got to you will hand over to us for review and we will save proper rules and regulations are followed uh... now every agency of government report apart from the fbi who found a one page document which had been in the public domain for years anyway i wish talked about uh... that the weather balloon theory and um... and the idea that the story but something was paying transferred to another place for study but it wasn't you know there are no smoking gun there uh... and other than that nothing surface from the fbi the air force cia nobody they'll come back totally blank now the airport interestingly enough did not want or toward discovery could be discovered so that you find something what actually happened with a big found

20:22 that there was something missing and what was missing was a massive files covering the keep hearing in question also here to before after of all the outgoing messages from the rossel army air force base for not period i'd just gone and they're still going to be studied cannot be found And on top of that, a bunch of other files were missing as well. Now the Air Force in the wake of the GAO investigation which essentially turned up nothing, the GAO put out their own report and they came to the conclusion

21:03 what was found was something called a mogul balloon. Mogul balloons were, it's part of classified balloon based operation back then and the idea was to launch these huge balloon arrays which would monitor for early atomic bomb detonations by the Soviet Union in other words they go high in the atmosphere and they could monitor for radiation atomic tests by the Soviets. And the Air Force concluded that is what the Roswell event was now A lot of people sort of point the finger at the Air Force and call them bad guys, and say they were outright lying about the Mogul theory. And also a second theory that the bodies were crash test dummies used in parachute experiments. I kind of take it as a little bit different approach, this is something that's like a theme that runs through the book. I truly don't believe that the Air Force

21:58 all the bad guys when it comes to rosswell what i think he's a wednesday and that went knocking on every door the air force felt because it would be good we know that yet was a handle the case back in the forties they felt beyond us some responsibility was on them too to find the answers could anybody should know the airport shirt now when the airforce went looking couldn't find anything I still think they felt the responsibility was on them to at least try and come up with an explanation. And, I think that's why they came up with a mogul balloon one because from their perspective it fitted some of the facts. Now, I think there is enough data to suggest it wasn't a mogul balloon but some researchers then you know they're like oh wait its the big bad air force lying to us what I think probably in some point in the 50s or 60s but certainly no later

22:51 So the really deep UFO program was sort of taken out the hands of government and the military, it was handed over to very powerful private corporations with multinational links and old money and power players. And that's not just hiding underground they're almost like hiding in plain sight but I think that today's air force probably may not know hardly any more than we do about roswell the mass suspicions and fragments of stories but i don't think that the bad guys hiding from schmitt congressman schmidt what happened i think they went looking found nothing and then we have to remember was the air force who pointed out but all the records are gone i think if they were the ones engaging a conspiracy that would hardly upset rule the record of vanished you know that this makes it look even more suspicious so i think that

23:40 I think we've got like a shadow government or shadow agency that is overseeing all this and the people we assume are hiding the truth, like the Pentagon and Air Force. They could be sitting now on lunch break at the Pentagon saying yeah we really don't know what happened but everybody thinks we do. And i think that's how the secrets being kept because the government on the bad guys therefore saw the cia's and it's these really be sort of shadow group that operates outside the law outside a congressional oversight isn't really part of government seats it really is like you told unique entity at best but difficult thing is a concept of wrapping your head around that scenario uh... how could that happen that they could be a government we did all without a government but i think that's really what there is

24:32 Oh, I think there's plenty of evidence to suggest that there is a group that is just designed to be cleaners. Of these type of activities...I mean men in black seem to be apart of this but yeah there seems to be quite a bit of evidence that if not sectors of these military or alphabet agencies then maybe there's a separate one that just cleans up all the messes as they happen globally Yeah, and I think also that it's not just a shadow agency that cleans up things but if you look back to the 40s and 50s we have a lot of reports about alien bodies being seen by military personnel in sort of like

25:13 cryogenic storage or in formaldehyde or something like that preserved and stored away. Those stories kind of tell off, interestingly enough for the most part by the time 70s came around and so again thatís why I think we can do it like a shadow group you know i don't think it's a coincidence that a lot of most of the course of tiled off and nobody really sees those bodies again at what right paterson which is one of my dick might place in the forties and fifties where here a lot of people came forward uh... so that's why i think their bodies and sell on america to probably held by

25:49 very powerful corporations and industries that do sort of defense contract work, you know developing new aircraft systems weapon systems. And I think it's been farmed out to them there are like four mildew high bodies of aliens preserved under the pentagon. But if you ask me, a private corporation that develops new propulsion systems for spacecraft or does viral research and biological research That's probably where the bodies are held today. And again, that's why we don't find them because they're no longer held at the military bases or whatever. Again it is some sort of flexible secret agency outside a government with networks and links all around the planet but

26:41 But it's so powerful that it is like a government, but it's not viewable in plain sight if you like. Yeah I think that makes a lot more sense too and you also write a little bit about missing documents pertaining to Philip Corso who was a pretty explosive Roswell whistleblower for the people who might need a refresher remind us of his story and what You found interesting about as FBI files before they were suspiciously omitted from the new archive Yeah, well Lieutenant Colonel Philip Corso or I should say the American lieutenant. That was my English accent then but Lieutenant Philip Corso was the author of the book with Bill Burns of The Day After Roswell and Corso had a very controversial story he claimed that

27:28 He was involved in a program to essentially seed the alien technology from Roswell into the US science, technological and defense industries to try and further the U.S military's technological power. If you could introduce alien technology we could understand it that would give you a major kickstart on everybody else on the planet so that was basically the theme of the book It must be said, as I point out in my book In For Nobody's Eyes Only that there are people who support Corso's story just as much as there are people who don't support it and it is one of these that sort of polarized the field of UFO research. But what is interesting is that there is an FBI file on Corso

28:14 And the FBI loaded it up to their website, something like about 10-7 years ago. Something like that and it gives a lot of background on what Hoover thought about Corso and his military background and things like this Now just a couple of years later, the FBI created a new website called The Vault which is really good website which I recommend to anyone that's interested in the history of the FBI involvement. In all manner of things you can find files on for example years of gangsters like bonnie and clied and uh... operations to arrest german spies in the second world war and i'm soviet spies at the height of a cold war and actually really pretty fascinating um... website very historical and you know that they are doing a great job about bloody police files in pdf format you can download them all for free but what's interesting and intriguing is that when there was this transfer from

29:17 the old website to the new one, yes a lot of the files got transferred but a number of files interesting enough on people in UFO subjects didn't get transferred. For example if we have Corso's file you can still get it but for some weird reason He didn't make the transfer from website to website when nearly 97-98% of others did. Another person who was heavily involved in ufology and whose file didn't make the transfer was somebody I guess more than anything else has become known for his research into the field of cloud busting as it's now. Now, cloud busting essentially is the ability to affect the weather and change the weather

30:06 And certainly the one person who more than any other was, I guess a leading early proponent and pioneer in this field was Dr. Wilhelm Reich. Now Reich had an extensive FBI file that runs to like nearly 1000 pages and that was on file at the old website but that didn't make it to the new one either And Reich was someone who also was heavily involved in studying the UFO phenomenon. So there are a couple of cases like that where files, we can still get them through the Freedom Information Act they're not denied it's just they're not profiled online anymore which obviously makes it difficult for a lot people to know they even exist

30:49 Yeah, Reich is an interesting guy. He actually from what I understand thought that Cloudbuster gun could also fight UFOs and he thought that the good and bad entities had different propulsion systems something like that? Yeah, well Wilhelm Wright was a very sort of fascinating character. A fringe scientist who's very much ahead of his time he felt number one that the weather could be manipulated and created these technologies called cloud busters which essentially could alter the weather But he also had a fascination with something that he called Orgone Energy. And he believed that Orgone Energy was sort of like the primordial life force energy, essentially it was the engine behind the entire universe and everything in it.

31:37 and he believed that the synergy was being sort of adapted in use by what he called uh... well essentially good and bad ufo entities um... in other words energy that could be utilized as a power source is a weapon uh... has an energy and they felt this this one particular form of or go to energy to so the positive walk couldn't be used against these negative entities and he claimed that on a number of occasions he literally kind of and to be tend to be total war the world scenario where you would he'll be able to tell what your pose were at the skies above the southwest desert areas and he could blast them with this positive or going energy in almost like a fellow hg wells war the world's and uh... they died in prison uh... sort of broken man and um... always uh... scientific papers are destroyed and uh... the very weird story

32:35 Yeah, it sounds so odd but for a guy who is a player at that level I mean obviously he was a smart intelligent man. Who am i to say that he can't do this kind of stuff with that argon energy? It's kinda crazy but he also felt like he was set up and what put him in prison right? Well, yeah. I mean the thing is with Reich as i said there were a lot of weird aspects to his story now one of the...I guess one of the strangest ones of all was this issue of what it was that put him in prison and he sort of..i won't say its totally unique because it wasn't totally unique but it was one of these situations where it sort of did

33:18 Now what happened was that he was essentially jailed for refusing to come to court or go to court on what were called interstate commerce and fraud charges. Basically, all he was doing was traveling across state lines with his technology in the back of his big truck. But because he sold this technology or technologies to people who may want to buy it and that included his books that was perceived as interstate commerce and fraud charges. And the reason for the fraud angle is because

34:00 Officially, it was disputed that his ideas had any validity to them. So in other words denying their validity that was perceived as fraud you know he's writing books and because the scenario wasn't there is nothing to this then its going to be fraud and then when he's traveling across state lines thats when you have this other angle coming so That in itself is what got him in trouble and then admittedly part of it was his own fault by refusing to actually attend the hearing and so on. So he got arrested, ended up in jail and part of his sentence was

34:40 the fact that he refused to come to court. But I mean you could make the analogy, let's say hypothetically somebody wrote a book tomorrow like Corso, another Corso comes along and writes a book saying I was a biologist and I was involved in autopsy on the Roswell aliens or let's say that old guy went on tour wrote a book, went on tour across the US and somebody came with valid reason they thought why he was lying. Somebody could then make the claim that this book is fraud and he's peddling it across state lines and so on... That is essentially all that really happened with Wright! It wasn't like he was robbing banks or anything

35:22 Well, you gotta go to court man. I mean if i learned anything...I almost had my life ruined because I didn't go to court for a couple of speeding tickets! You gotta go to court! Yeah that was his downfall but the problem was it wasn't like he was just like you said, I mean you know a speeding ticket or what? That's bad enough. Not go to court and then end up with even bigger problems from a smaller one But that was one of my wife's major problems and because it was a problem And then he had these other things interstate fraud charges, which isn't you know? It isn't like just jumping a red light or whatever That sort of really Just amplified the trouble. He was in yeah

36:03 Yeah, you just can't ignore the courts unless of course you're someone like Dick Cheney. Then you can just ignore anything that comes your way another thing that's interesting about prominent people who have Huge chunks of files missing where there should be some information on them There was a pretty important document that went missing of Marilyn Monroe's I mean she apparently had a lot of secrets and she had a diary That no one seems to be able to find now right? Yeah, well Marilyn Monroe died in 1962 when she was only 36. And I guess from her movie, she kind of has this reputation as sort of this dizzy-headed blonde and didn't really know much you know? Which is actually totally wrong that's sort of the person or excuse me the image that's in the public domain of her but the reality is that she was a very clever woman

37:00 used to read extensively. In 1955, she actually applied for a visa to visit what then was the Soviet Union because she was interested in it and wanted to know what it really like versus people said it was like. This raised eyebrows with J Edgar Hoover and one of the reasons why her file was opened because she made this request to see if she could go to the Soviet Union. Of course, she was already a famous actress so that would have raised eyebrows even more. Now one of the things I talk about in the book – there are many aspects to her life and death that are all filled with intrigue but we know

37:43 at certain points, we don't even know the full years or the full story. Probably never will but she certainly had an affairs or relationships if you want to term it with both President Kennedy and his brother Robert Kennedy And one of things that they actually didn't know she did But she kept a lot of journals A lot of people write journals and she did that as well but she also had this other one which became known as The Red Book And the red book contained all the stuff that the Kennedys told her and people surrounding the Kennedy's who she might have met at parties and things like that. Reportedly it was filled with sort of sensational top secrets that Kennedy essentially told her to try and lure into the bedroom, I guess you know impress her with how would you like to hear this?

38:33 It's sort of related to things like plans to invade Cuba and assassinate Castro, the relationship with the Soviet Union and how things were going with them. Space missions all sorts of stuff. There is a story that's supposedly kennedy told marilyn monroe about a trip he made to uh... an airbase somewhere in the u s two c crash spacecraft and some dead bodies now this actually story comes from document that didn't surface through the freedom of information act but there was given to uh... an american author is now dead by milo spiriglio he wrote three non-fiction books on the death of marilyn monroe uh... all of which sort of salt supported a conspiracy theory behind it and he was given a document in nineteen ninety five it was purportedly elite cia documents have a wiretap

39:29 between two particular individuals. One, Dorothy Kilgallen. Dorothy Kilgallen was a famous journalist in the 1950s and 60's who was actually the last person to interview Jack Ruby who shot Lee Harvey Oswald Well this document is reportedly a wiretap transcript of a conversation between Dorothy Kilgallen and a man named Howard Rothberg who was a mutual friend of got to kill gala and marilyn monroe i think in this conversation that killed a lot of the talk about uh... conversational distorted barry Monroe supposedly told both of them but he's crashed objected be strange bodies or dead bodies and um...

40:14 The story is that Marilyn Monroe, because of the way she'd been treated by the Kennedys, threatened to blow the whistle on everything and was going to go public with all these stories that Kennedy had told her in the Red Book. Well, of course, that never happened because she was found dead in August 1962, in the first week of August. This document is actually dated just two days after before she died. And so that in itself is potentially suspicious, but a number of people who worked in the coroner's office and in the city and the police department and in the mortuary all said that they saw this red book as it was known. It was like a thick red journal. And they said it was brought into the coroner's office with a lot of her own sort of personal possessions

41:02 and uh... pretty vanished from that director days of nobody knows what happened to reach nobody at all so in other words dot is probably the most important piece of documented evidence on marilyn monroe that's gone yet be like they've released now hundreds of pages material on her i think um... you know a lot of most of the stuff we can again on her from the fbi think we've already got now we certainly don't have what is really to exist which is why endless ramesh transcripts of conversations between her and and jfk but sweeten up a lot of hoover's files were shredded in the early seventies his personal files so it's possible that

41:45 that's where a lot of her papers went but there is another angle as well the early fbi files that have been declassified in which you can read at the vault several of them actually have the director of the CIA copied on the documents so the CIA should have those documents on file today they cannot be found in headquarters with the CIA. In other words, they were FBI files on Marilyn Monroe that were photocopied afforded to the CIA because Marilyn Monroe was looking to go to Russia. So that's another puzzling thing is why are these documents, which are fairly innocuous today there is nothing sensational about them... Why isn't those files which we can prove from the FBI's own records ironically were sent to the CIA? Why can't they be found now it almost sounds like again this

42:34 sort of shadow agency went in and sanitized everything, and in the same way that the Air Force are baffled by their lack of Roswell records. The CIA are baffled by the fact that yes they admit they should have something on Marilyn Monroe because the FBI sent it to them but those files have gone so who knows how many others might've been polled 30 40 50 years ago we just don't really know when it coulda happened Yeah, it is a real shame but it's an interesting little saga and do you put any stock? I know you've been looking at this stuff for a long time. Do you put any stock at all in the old legend that Kennedy was taken out over his plan to disclose some information on alien contacts and UFOs because if Marilyn Monroe was killed because she was gonna disclose... ...I guess you could say it would make sense that if he decided he wanted too, He would go as well

43:24 Well yeah, I've got an entire chapter on this in the Close Encounters of a Fatal Kind book and it sounds to some people even within ufology you know it sounds too extreme to imagine that the world's probably two biggest conspiracies are the Kennedy assassination UFOs. the idea that they could actually be just part of one big conspiracy. That's sort of too much for even people in the UFO subject to often take, but... The fact is that the more we look into the UFO subject and the Kennedy assassination, the more we actually do find a lot of crossover tangents I mean, to give you one example Back in 1947 In a place called Maury Island Washington State

44:08 There was a story on June 20th, 1947 of like a squadron of UFOs seen flying over the harbour of Moray Island and reportedly one of these UFOs exploded in the air and all this strange wreckage was sort of straight into the harbor area collected by a guy named harold doll howard dole had to go to my name fred chrisman we're shadowy unusual actually quite weird character who had a lot of ties to the intelligence community and uh... sort of off the record ties as well which has had that uh... fred christman who picked up this weird wreckage and shared it with the military actually turns up in a kennedy assassination impact um... jim garrison they had issued to tell you if there are no lawyers who was played by kevin costner in the chair k movie he actually came to believe but christman was one of the gunmen at the grassy knoll

45:05 Now, on top of that another man who is known to Christman and also known to Lee Harvey Oswald was a former FBI agent named Guy Bannister who's also played or portrayed I should say in the JFK movie by Ed Asner. Guy Bannister was somebody who extensively researched and studied the UFO subject for the FBI in the summer of 1947 when the whole thing kicked off. His UFO files have now been declassified, and at one point in July 1947 he actually got a behind-closed doors briefing on UFOs by the military

45:44 and we have a lot of things like this where paper in the intel world in forty seven in relation to your photos popped up years later in the kennedy assassination now in relation to kennedy himself uh... there are as you said rumors that um... he wanted to go public with what do you know about ufo so that the story for two reasons why he felt it was important enough alone for the general public to know. He felt the idea that if there is alien life out there and we've got something, even if just a few bones and bodies and fragments of wreckage then he felt everybody should know but there was also allegedly at least another reason...He felt that's at the height of the Cold War where we'd all got nuclear weapons

46:30 the reason why there was no third world war it because neither side would be a risk launching that because they've both despite all the bluff of bravado about the soviets and nato knew that made it could defeat each other but just seconds after we'd launch our missiles available as will be able to detect you know that they were flying and which is far back at everybody would die and so kennedy felt if we had access to highly advanced alien technology and the russians found out they might be so frightened that they actually might risk a first strike uh... and so that the story is that kennedy wanted to share the alien technology with the russians as well to keep it balances of power as as i did he might have been also kind of makes a degree of sense as well um... and shelter people who were so hard in the truth for so-called we had to become known as a military industrial complex the stories are

47:25 this was just too much and he had to go you know the countdown was on uh... now had kennedy um decided to go public you know that if you would be good rationalize their in the build-up to do it back he would want a mate with people who we have placed in a position to share information within so we can have a full picture and actually seems to be what we have for example the day before he was shot, Kennedy was shot on November 22nd 1963 in Daly Plaza as everybody knows. Well the day before

48:00 He made a visit with Jackie Kennedy to Brooks Air Force Base, which is also in Texas. And he was there to open a new wing and this particular wing was dedicated to what at the time it's called space medicine. The idea was that you bear in mind this was the early years of the space race and we didn't really know how people would affected by exposure to, for example low gravity or no gravity or cosmic rays. How would it affect your blood pressure? Your pulse? Your heart? Your organs?" So this space medicine branch was set up to research all that sort of stuff. Now one of the people who held a senior position there was Major General Theodore Bedwell

48:45 well it turns out that in the summer of nineteen forty seven major general bedwell actually held a major or significant uh... medical position at right field as it is to write paterson air force base and he would have been somebody in the summer forty-seven when he worked there'd be a prime position to see the alien bodies but they reportedly taken so that very place We know that Kennedy had a behind closed doors meeting with Bedwell on that day. Another person he spoke with on that same day held a significant medical position also at a place called Fort Detrick in Maryland. Now, Fort Detrick is where even today

49:27 uh... the government undertakes all it's a research into biological warfare exotic viruses viruses you know i said essentially to ensure that if somebody like you know some hostile nation tries to attack us with their deadly virus we have some way to combat it Now there have been theories and stories about alien bodies taken to Fort Detrick that displayed some sort of deadly alien virus, one against which we probably wouldn't have any kind of defense at all. Well it turns out that on the same day Kennedy met Major General Bedwell he also met at Brooks a man named Colonel Harold Ellingson

50:07 And Ellingson used to be in 1947 was the post surgeon and hospital commander at Fort Detrick. So again he would have been somebody in a prime position to have access to alien bodies with a viral angle, and when we see that it's sort of just 24 hours before he was shot dead the kennedy's making all these people travel into a base daily without a space fringe technologies and viruses in space technology twenty four hours later you get it now that we have stories of fred christman and god bannister involved at the indeed plaza and both those guys have ufo history got back to forty seven soviet there are a lot of strata like that

50:56 Yeah, it's just a weird one because he was ruffling so many feathers of powerful people who were capable of doing something like that and I think the UFO connections seem to be the most numerous but...I guess one big criticism would say would just be that 24 hours is not a lot of time to plan such a high profile murder. But maybe-maybe I'm naive? Well, no I don't. No, I'd agree with you on that but if a theory has merit the argument would possibly be that they knew what he was going to be speaking, and maybe they knew he was gonna sort of blow the whistle on November 28th or 29th. So maybe it was just a case of well let's...he's gonna speak to these people regardless and we're just gonna get him on the 22nd in Dealey Plaza and his big speech on the 29th will never happen anyway but I would actually agree with you when you said he ruffled

51:55 better to go out of people i think actually what is probably more likely he's that there were paper in the ufo program a water team gone the may have paid pay clean you know other offices who wanted him gone they could have been even though we know that uh... a lot of people in the back it didn't like him and a cuban america invested interests in having all these people caught up on board um... yeah but you're capable of getting garland sometimes countries and agencies work with the enemy for what they see is like a bigger, you know goal. I mean, but the KGB and the US have worked together at times against China You know there are number of interesting historical stories like that because

52:40 Both of them sort of saw the Chinese as a threat. So, you know it's not like we're all sort of black and white We never gonna talk with these we're never gonna do anything with age You know, it's no like that the real world Never been like that right? Yeah, the enemy of my enemy is my friend they say but uh, yeah Let's jump to some of these lesser-known UFO cases that pop up in these two books. You have a great story that took place right before the Kenneth Arnold encounter, A lot of people know that as like the jumping off point for a huge string of sightings in this country and This thing happened before Kenneth Arnolds encounter in Brazil probably the creepiest UFO story I've ever heard Can you tell people about what happened there?

53:23 Yeah, well Kenneth Arnold's sighting during the 24th 1947 was the one that really kicked off the whole flying saucer phenomenon. I mean even to the extent that before Arnold's sighting the term flying saucer didn't even exist uh... just to give people a bit of background who may not know kenneth arnold and was a pilot's and he had this citing over at mount rainier in washington state in john june twenty fourth nineteen forty seven of what we might call like a squadron review fos and he didn't actually say that with flying saucers what he said was when asked by a journalist, he said they flew like saucer's might if you skip them across the body of water so like an undulating motion. And then an enterprising journalist took those words and created the term flying saucer

54:13 uh... but that doesn't mean that we didn't have sightings or reports the predated on a week later you've been in the money and one of these occurred on the night of march the fourth nineteen forty six and um... returning a little abrazilian village and involved among manuel presto still hope and uh... He was 44 years old at the time and he was a farmer in this little village. It was a day off, so he'd spent the day fishing and got a lot of food for his family and so on. So we were walking back to the village when it was cross between dusk and darkness. He kind of had that feeling that we all get from time-to-time when you think someone's watching you

55:01 swing your head around and somebody is, you know. You're like in a line at the checkout or something and you just get that feeling when you turn round, somebody's eyes are boring into you from 60 feet away or whatever. He had that feeling but he couldn't...he didn't see anyone but he couldn't shake it off that he was being watched and we got back home And he still felt it, he still could not get rid of this feeling. He looked around the house and opened the door and looked around. Then he opened one of the windows in the house and was suddenly sort of bathed is probably

55:37 to use, like a bright glow or beam that was coming from some sort of object hovering high in the sky but wasn't making any noise and obviously it wasn't moving. So it couldn't have been a helicopter because if there's one thing helicopters do, certainly back there they make a hell of lot There are stories today about agencies perfecting silent helicopters, but back in 1947 they would have made a huge rumbling noise. But this object was totally silent. Well he got hit by this beam and he was able to before he died, he was actually able to tell friends and neighbors that his body sort of started to heat up. And with hindsight it kind of sounds like he was bathed in some sort of microwave or by some sort of microwave technology now when you cook food in the microwave as everybody knows it always says on the package let it stand for two or three minutes

56:34 that's actually not just because the food comes out super hot it's because microwaves cook from the inside out so in other words the food is actually still cooking during that period when you're taking it out of a microwave, thats why they ask you to let it stand cause your eating food otherwise where the microwaves are still cooking and uh... with hindsight as I said it sounds like something along these lines happened to him although obviously the pain when i went on the object went away he's skin continued to pale and bad almost began kind of like you get a bad sunburn in his skin peels but they got worse and worse than portions of the skins started to blister and then little scabs would fall off of so on and it was just bleeding and these family and friends right into the various hospital by the time they got very skimmed with glitchy start to slide off

57:30 and essentially melted away into like a pile of pretty much nothing uh... in the hospital that sounds straight out of like a sci-fi story but actually an amazingly and terrifically as well isn't um... i don't have the military people uh... who were involved and also the doctors have come forward instead you can confirm their involvement and the fact that yes this is all recorded in one of them was a man named erasic oh my it who's one of the medics uh... losing uh... in hospital at the time actually got to say um... bill i would be just literally kind of disintegrated and uh... you know when you look at story like this i mean but really doesn't seem to be

58:14 Any way to view it other than just downright deliberate hostility for the sake of it. Yeah, there doesn't seem to be any other Explanation behind it at all yeah that one's pretty straightforward and pretty creepy But I did remind me of something that's not mentioned much anymore but I used to when I was a kid hear stories of spontaneous human combustion where people are found in just a pile of ash and That was always like super terrifying to me I'm like why even put my seatbelt on when I could just explode at any minute it what you should bring that up i don't mention that subject in the book but uh... there was a lecture logic be i follow the woman and mary hardy risa who died of s h c in the early fifties and dot files baby classified by the f b i took it i think he's got a two hundred pages long four hundred fifty pages longer pictures sort of failed with your top three report newspaper clippings and theories wept at members of the public could

59:49 Yeah, the case itself alone is important because it involves a military pilot chasing an UFO. And so missing files on its own alone is profound enough but when you've got something where almost like a dogfight or I want to say almost when a literal dogfight sort of occurring in the sky and the file's gone missing that situation that's even more profound but this actually occurred on September the 19th, 1976 and it involved the Iranian Air Force in an event that occurred in Iranian airspace. Now this actually occurred when we were on I won't say friendly terms with the Iranians but certainly on cordial terms with them to the extent that a large amount of McDonnell Douglas Phantom F-4 aircraft was sold by the US to the Iranians

1:00:45 And so that's what the Iranians were flying back then, they were flying US Phantom aircraft. And on the night of September 19th 1976 we have this incident where pilots of one of these particular aircraft reported seeing a bright light in the sky, almost dazzlingly bright. He couldn't actually make a shape out of it like a disc or globe or whatever but it clearly was no normal object because the light configuration alone told him that so he attempted an interception of also armed his weapon system ready just in case he needed it. As the pilot got closer to it, what basically happened was there were stories that he

1:01:35 got a fire on the object that you really may have fired on it but most people take the view that he was thinking about it actually didn't uh... but if not uh... possibility or that's not supposed to take out of his hands when the entire weapons system was disabled by whatever this object what it seems happy ability to not sort of have the object just drop out of the sky by wiping out its entire system, but just focusing on the weapon systems. So it was essentially rendered harmless and there was this cat-and-mouse game that went in the skies for quite a while and finally the object shot away at high speed – not

1:02:16 interest enough to into the skies but reportedly to the ground and restore is about this object being seen late up on the ground in the next day military guy iranian military going out but not finding anything or at least that's the official story so you know we have a sort of bizarre incredible case involving dogfight between ufo and uh... iranian uh... pilot which ended in almost death for the pilots and certainly disabling of his entire weapon system. And of course something like that it's hardly surprising that official files would be put together, and we do have two documents in the public domain that are both surfaced through the Freedom Information Act and they're essentially summaries of the case

1:03:05 which I've just sort of described to you, through intelligence channels US intelligence agencies were able to put together a degree of the picture of what happened. However two researchers Barry Greenwood and Larry Fawcett they spent a lot of time and man hours digging into the case and putting together Freedom of Information requests, and essentially firing requests off to just about every agency under the sun for files on it. Now although they didn't get any files other than these two which amount to about eight or nine pages altogether, they did sort of attract somebody's attention

1:03:46 They were contacted by people within government who said, yeah there is more to this story but you're not going to get the files. And they mentioned to them that supposedly one of these files was like 1 and a half inches thick – like a gigantic file that clearly must have told the whole story and probably more than we'll ever know. And they tried to get this file nobody would own up not necessarily just own up to having a copy but even that it existed. But Fawcett and Greenwood's sources were saying, yeah it does exist you're just never going to get it thats all Yeah, man. Another interesting detail to that UFO encounter was that to get away from the pilots it actually landed in the dark in the desert I guess but when I had heard that It went down that way and made me tally a chalk mark in the column for those who say these beings and crafts come from inside the Earth rather than outer space. I think thats really interesting idea but do you put any stock on those theories at all?

1:04:46 Well, I mean people said well there's no way it could be you know like an underground race But they're quite open to the idea of races coming from some you know millions of light years away It's no more a stretch of believability. But yeah, I do actually think the idea of an underground race – whether aliens live in underground or some people think the UFO phenomenon is actually nothing to do with aliens but it's like an ancient terrestrial race that masquerades as alien so we don't find out who they really are. There are some interesting theories being put forward for that scenario, for example you look at alien abductions

1:05:34 It seems at least on the face of it that the primary reason for abductions is sort of genetic issues where you know eggs, sperm blood DNA is taken and these things sort of cross-breed them if you like to make hybrids and we are expected to believe I guess that we're genetically almost compatible with creatures born in a solar system 10, 20 light years away which kind of sounds unlikely when you think about it like that but if we're dealing with an ancient terrestrial race which may not be homo sapiens like we are

1:06:14 that may be like an early offshoot, the game technology. Not necessarily like Chromagnum and Neanderthal but something along those lines like a more advanced offshoot of us that lives underground and possibly uses us in the same way we perceive aliens are using but they sort of living fast cabins and caves and you know that entire underground civilization yes it does sound incredible unlikely but you know this is what's what's less likely or more likely the idea of aliens coming from a far away and i think so-and-so genetically compatible and also the fact that in many ufo cases you know the entities are saying without space suits with oxygen masks or their equivalent

1:07:02 and just walking around in our air pressure, it's kind of like if you go to the bottom of the ocean and you have a diver suit on your body. You'll die because they're different pressures and yet these things seem perfectly functional in our world that again is another reason why we might take the view The reason why they can operate in our atmosphere, in our oxygen levels and in our pressure is because they're from here. A friend of mine, the late Mac Tonish wrote a book on this called The Crypto-Terrestrials and although it was sort of very speculative, Mac did make a lot of good points along these lines as to why the whole crypto terrestrial theory at the very least should be studied

1:07:47 at the same level as the extraterrestrial one if united for no other reason because both of them you know a controversial one if you think about it is really no less valid than the other Yeah, I mean the point you made about compatibility of the biology it makes you think. You know it definitely should The only reason that the idea that they're based here sounds more weird is just because we hear less than these space alien theory but this has been awesome! Thanks for being one of the first guys to do one of these longer shows with me We had a whole ton of material to talk about I had a good time. There's so many good stories, there'd never be enough time but before i cut you loose would you like to tell the people about any anything more about the books or where they can keep up with you and your other work? Yeah well the books we talked about tonight were For Nobody's Eyes Only and Close Encounters of a Fatal Kind both available on Amazon and all you can walk into Barnes & Noble and get them off the shelves there as well um uh if people want to contact me then

1:08:46 contact me through Nick Redfern at Facebook. There are a few Nick Redferns on Facebook, but you'll find me and I have a blog which is called World of Whatever which is nickredfernfortian.blogspot.com and I'm actually going to be talking about some other stuff we talked about tonight in the conference called The Contactor in the Desert Conference on the weekend of August 6th in Joshua Tree, so I'll be there for that entire weekend talking about various books and so on. So if anybody's coming out say hello? Very cool yeah! I forgot you were going to be a contact in the desert...I'm actually gonna be there myself but I'm just taking my dad out for a good time so he can hear some of these crazy speakers so I'm gonna be there kind of not a professional sense but I'll stop by and say hey

1:09:35 Yeah, well I have to go to conferences just for good time anyway. Yeah yeah of course! So very cool thanks again be careful out there digging up these documents you gotta take care yourself alright man? Thanks bud! There we have it people and man was it great to be able to do an extended two hour show. If you enjoyed the first hour, please sign up for the 2-hour show at thehiresideschatsplus.com It's just five bucks a month for 5 2-hour shows with great guests like Nick In this week's Second Hour we went on to discuss alien viruses associated with the Roswell wreckage, Alistair Crowley working for British intelligence, the huge strange string of scientist deaths working on secret technology, the CIA's Operation

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1:12:29 But I like to keep these things a surprise, so just be ready. And thanks again to those who have signed up for PLUS. I can't say it enough The few people who have are already really making a difference in my life and i hope to make a difference In yours somehow through these shows you are all the best enjoy your day! I've done My part this week Your move secret beyond the law global conspiracy cover-up and cleanup agency that tries to keep us in the dark your fucking move. THE HIGHER SIDE CHAT is where it's at. Everything you need to know from corruption to UFOs, be sure to grab your book It's some conspiracy Fireside Chat