Nick Redfern | Assassinations, Mind Control, Disney & The Dark State

00:04 In the 1930s, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed a nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the Fireside Chats. His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times but we're far from 1930 and I deal with a different kind of fire For a new era of worldly frustration We offer a fresh conversation! I'm Greg Carlwood These are The Hireside Chats This is how we do it, Ironside Chatters. How the hell are you from sunny San Diego drinking a little drink smoking a little smoke and starting to wonder how long I'm gonna say that same old thing? I'm Greg Carlwood and it's always a joy to talk about cryptids underground entities in the invading spider beings of the Sun Moon Matrix but sometimes you gotta bring back home with political assassinations well-established black ops projects secret connections culture shaping propaganda and things that were almost taken for granted at this point

01:02 Because it's no surprise that most major events in history, politics and modern times have a stranger subtext that isn't reported on the nightly news. And thanks to the determination of people like todays guests we can put the fractured pieces together and see the situation beneath the surface. Today were back in the saddle with my man Nick Redfern one of the hardest working reality revealers on this island earth We had him here not long ago to talk about his massive conspiracy textbook Secret History conspiracies from ancient aliens to the new world order and there are so many great stories in the conspiracy and New World Order sections of the book but we spent the full two hours last time talking about ancient aliens, UFO explanations for biblical stories, Van Tassel scenario, manipulation of major events by secretive beings, and The Kitchen Sink. All kinds of wild stuff involving

01:50 The ancient past and high strangeness. So much stuff that we didn't even get to these more modern conspiracy sagas, and I'm pumped to have him back to get weird with me once again How's it going Nick? Welcome back. Oh thanks Greg, thanks for having me on again Always a pleasure man! I definitely love the stuff We talked about last time but some people really do prefer the meat-and-potatoes types of stories where are the motivations of greed and secrecy in the lust for power are really all you need to believe in because at those upper levels it seems to be nearly the sole motivation for doing anything. And what's more surprising isn't why they do what they do, but just how much gets swept under the rug ignored how much they get away with how much is glossed over I mean it's really shocking sometimes wouldn't you say?

02:33 Well, yeah I think you know like a lot of history whether it's conspiracy based or not if we're not taught its people quickly forget it or worst-case scenario don't even know about it in the first place. I think that's unfortunate and you know it says a lot about us as a society when people are asked to point to their country on the map and They can't identify it, you know. You can apply it to any asset in life – it doesn't have to be conspiracies! When history isn't taught or gets forgotten everything gets swept under the rugs sometimes deliberately other times just because everything else just gets swept up with

03:12 Yep, and even the things we do realize you know our memories are collective memory is so short that it allows them to use the same playbook over and over again which we do see in several areas. Well yeah I think you know the thing is to try and just sort of be aware what's going on around and take notice and there's not really much else we can do other than then trying to a little bit right And that's why we're here, man. We're lucky to have guys like you dragging these stories out to see the light of day So maybe we should dive into some of this stuff Being in the conspiracy world I sometimes do get JFK fatigue hearing about the same story The same theories over and over again when there's so much more out there Like the Lincoln assassination which he did put in this book We know so much less about their being any alternative theories to the lone gunman story here Tell us a little bit about this one who else could have been involved

04:03 well yeah i mean you know president lincoln was assassinated well that it is fascinating everyone look at its on paper the fifteenth eighteen sixty five by john wilkes-booth now unlike you know the kennedy assassination where here we have multiple scenarios for the gunman or the government cetera et cetera uh... even within the sort of world a conspiracy theorizing for the most part at least people still focus on John Wilkes Booth as being the person who actually pulled the trigger so to speak. But in saying that, the conspiracies sort of relate to the issue of who perhaps was John Wilkes Booth connected to and things like that and one of the themes has been put forward is the Jesuits

04:55 which basically had its origins in 1856 in Ibarna, Illinois. And we know that he had certain connections with the Jesuits now to what extent possibly this comes into play is sort of admittedly questionable because whenever we find potential potential gunmen and people like this attached to sort of group societies and sometimes secret societies, inevitably it sort of provokes a finger pointing that well there must have been something going on there as well. And you know sometimes that can be perfectly valid. There's also the issue of the British

05:40 Masonry organization being involved as well. And one of the theories as to why the British establishment might have wanted Lincoln gone is because if he was killed, if it was murdered, it potentially had the ability to sort of cut the US in two north and south and so in other words the power that one would have would be both sides there will be less you know the bill s power and theory was that it would allow the u k influence to a greater and stronger degree possibly even allowed him to take over the banking system uh... and take control their so you've got wildly different theories as to how uh... john wilkes may not have just been sort of you know it disgruntled attack assassin

06:29 There may have been hands and players in the background directing things that even today we haven't really uncovered all the facts possibly. Yeah, I think it's really interesting and sometimes the further you go back in history to a story like the assassination of Lincoln. I think the official story is way more cemented in people's minds as opposed to JFK where they were more skeptical from the start or maybe its just the mainstream narrative being the loudest one out over time like we were saying but ya gotta question everything when the same shadow powers are in play and for my money The Lone Gunman Theory almost never seems to hold any water

07:07 now and even when there is a long government i think one of the things that's makes people wonder he's the fact that you you have these strands you know this every got the jesuit thing in the u k thing being tied to john willsburg and then quickly all the also we've got the fact that you know travel to russia and it was late with the cubans and jack ruby of paper like this eight it's rarely the case of political assassination but the alleged assassin doesn't have some sort of weird history right and i think that's what a lot of people important to remember but you really don't very often find a political assassin who just decided today so decided to do that there's always a bunch of unusual or mysterious characters that they tried with in the past and uh... i think you know that that's a pattern we need to to be aware of interested type notice of as well

08:02 Yeah, that's a great point. Average people who are slightly mentally unstable enough to assassinate a president aren't the kind of people who should have these high-level connections What are they doing messing around with these people? It should be a separate class altogether You're right, it should but when we do see these connections here and there and just about everywhere and we see it happening time and again the pattern is clearly developing. Now where the pattern leads is a big question. the big answer that we're looking for but I do think that when we see this sort of repeated, not necessarily a repeated event but it's a repeated set of circumstances and the situations concerning the alleged assassin.

08:49 It's a case of we just got to look into it purely and simply because in my view at least, it goes beyond the realms of coincidence that think that we would just keep seeing this pattern time and time again. To me there is like a motivation behind it or there is connection somewhere with more powerful figures pulling the strings Yeah, I'm with you there. It's just about finding out who and realizing that us humans are drawn to neat and tidy conclusions but I am still probably in the camp that thinks Lincoln, Garfield & JFK were all assassinated for their outspoken comments an active resistance to the big banking families. They did have it all in common from what I understand no?

09:34 Yeah, I think certainly in the modern era where people be able to relate to more. Kennedy is a classic example because he was someone who really did want essentially change America and change the world as he saw it for the better and that usually means pro-artic didn't i think you know sort of taking that control out to play hands of powerful figures and having a government for the people uh... the whole issue all funding endless wars are kind of thing he was against that and and i think quite possibly what happened with that he wears sort of annoying angry so many different people from different angles

10:17 But in an almost unique situation, they may have all got together. You want him gone and we want him gone. We'll all take a little bit of responsibility and that will guarantee no one will ever talk about it or otherwise we'll go down. I think that could've happened if somebody in Cuba wants him gone, someone in Russia wants him gone, the mafia wants him gone... possibly you know road people in the establishment one and gone as well uh... somebody else someone somebody out somebody else somebody makes a phone call and before you know it the jobs done and there's never you know there's not been one specific body that was responsible but of all range of them and they all know the implications of ensuring that by help to keep up each other hidden right otherwise they'll like i said they will go down

11:06 Yeah, I mean when you try to turn the tide on systems that they've set up for generations. You become an enemy of all the cemented power groups and yeah it's not unreasonable to think that they would collude to get rid of somebody. I mean, it makes total sense to me another assassination that seems to have a deeper story that you wrote about in this book is Martin Luther King Jr., and I found this part pretty interesting and the details here aren't quite as widely circulated as a case like JFK but it does have some parallels to other high-profile assassinations doesn't? Well yeah it does, I mean again Martin Luther King is a classic example of someone who when you look into his life and his background and the things that were going on all sorts of weird stories about him having supposedly this mysterious handler or controller if you like Raoul. Again we have this situation where it's never black-and-white that he was just

12:03 a guy who had a grudge against martin luther king and decided to kill him there's always other issues going on i mean for example one of the interesting things is this entire issue obvious character ralph story gets into sort of said handlers controllers even be bmk ultra mind control program split personalities all sorts of weird things and when you actually say that he almost comes across like a real-life manchurian candidate type scenario we've james earl ray possibly pain cherry picked if you like because he was a sort of what the volatile character to start with anywhere as a criminal but it's so in other words you would have been the perfect for god for someone that may have wanted

12:56 to use someone who when you know background checks are made on them he turned out to be the perfect person i mean for example and he was found guilty of burglary in nineteen forty nine uh... served two years in prison in fifty-two for armed robbery mail fraud another armed robbery that's it, the list just goes on and on but in saying that someone like that is the ideal person uh... to as i said today this stage you know it's a bit of hope before going down um... but you know we we do coming even for example the department justice you don't look very deeply into these claims solve secret handler and uh... all these stories about other people pulling the strings and so on and i'm not doing anything but point out a lot of people point

13:48 to finger at the government and say, you know, the government's the bad guys and, you know, the CIA did this. The more I've looked into it, I actually think that a lot of these events and a lot of the real sort-of people who actually control the planet... It's actually nothing to do with their outside of government, you know? They're that powerful! They, you know, ancient families rich families, secret orders people who can get things done without anything being noticed and without any oversight because they don't need to ask for oversight. You know the ones who really...the big power players and the people they could hire to get things done etc etc I think very often it's these sort of rogue

14:30 bodies that are the ones responsible and we say, a lot of people say it's the FBI or CIA when I actually think it could be sort of more likely to be shadow agencies things like this. And I think that could be the case with James Earl Ray where people may have wanted not to let the king gone because i felt you know from our perspective you know he was a major hero in the united states and we change the country but may have been people not necessarily in government but again certain power players on the world stage never mind the u s state of the world stage who want him gone uh... somebody had to be found today that before god like oswald and uh...

15:13 you know so that may explain why the DOJ went looking and couldn't really find anything. Some people say, oh well they covered it all up I don't think they did! They went looking and were puzzled that they couldn't find anything but again i think this says more about these mysterious figures shadow groups rogue groups that kind of thing do have the ability to pull something like this off and get away with Yeah, yeah. It goes without saying that the establishment doesn't want a united and inspired populace and if there's a guy out there doing that There's a lot of groups that would love to just get rid of that And I did copy down one quote from James Earl Ray from your book But apparently he made this statement. I might have been partially responsible without knowing it

15:59 And I mean, obviously that's a guy who is trying to be honest. At least it strikes me as that and he hits the guy who doesn't even really know what happened it seems. No, but I mean that actually sort of a really...I wouldn't say famous statement but it's actually in a lot of people don't even know we made it But even though it's a very short statement It's quite sort of telling and revealing In the sense that To me, what it sounds like he's saying is that okay I did it but I may not have been in control of my faculties when I did. Not because he had gone crazy but because he'd been sort of possibly even rendered into a hypnotic trigger word type state and

16:45 in that sort of semi-altered state, he performed the task that he was required to do and then afterwards he comes out of it in this kind of day situation. And it also suggests a little bit that maybe he was putting the word out to someone so let them know that he realized what had been done to him you see what I mean? He wasn't necessarily telling the media, he was telling the string pullers behind the operation. Hey you know I know what happened and releasing here a little bit of like a snippet of information that people might pick up on and realize i'm talking about some sort of mind control type thing

17:25 Right and you did mention this character Raul And that is worth spending a little bit of time on because this is very strange I guess he met this guy after he got out of prison or escaped from prison and This really does seem like the textbook type of guy who would show up and manipulate someone who was, you know kind of had their hands tied with life because if you escape from prison, you don't have a lot of options or resources. So this seems like a prime target. This guy Raul comes in and starts manipulating him and I mean that seems to be what happened right? Yeah well this guy Raul it almost comes across like a man in black type character yeah very

18:09 sinister Machiavellian almost who suddenly pops up in James Earl Ray's life and almost sort of takes control. Ray kind of follows his every word, and reportedly Raoul told him to purchase a rifle meet with him in Memphis you're going to get this particular boarding house and your gonna get the job done There's also a story that Rowell essentially set up James Earl Ray to be sort of a patsy in the same way that Lee Harvey Oswald claimed he was. But if you look at the story of Rowell, now whether it's true or not is the big question but it does sound like that he was deliberately inserted into the story to ensure one way or another James Earl Ray would be perceived as the assassin and that Rowell

19:01 would be in the right place to get Earl James Earl Ray also in the right place at the right time, to ensure that there was a paper trail showing he bought a rifle. And then Raoul vanishes afterwards which may have been the case with if Oswald really was a patsy as well that both of them were set up to be fall guys when they actually thought something else may have been going on. Yeah, and another thing I had heard is wasn't there after the fact with the Martin Luther King Jr. trial Wasn't there a civil case later where the conclusion was that there was some type of conspiracy involvement?

19:38 John Miller, who is the CEO of the National Police Agency, said that he was not aware attention or unfortunately just doesn't always have the credibility in many people's eyes that, oh well you know somebody just came to a different conclusion. I think that's how it's often looked at you know what i mean? I mean I think people...a lot of people are critical for example the Warren Commission report because it was an official government reports and everybody knows the conclusions

20:19 And whether people believe it or not, they know it. Far less people know for example in the 70s when you had the Select Committee on Assassinations that actually concluded there was a conspiracy. A lot of people forget that. They say well now the government's conclusion is the Warren Commission which technically Equally technically, the 1970s report is just as valid in concluding that there was a conspiracy. But in other words it's kind of like the situation with Martin Luther King but another conclusion comes along further down the line after a very high profile conclusion becomes part of major history and you know that one further down the line just gets swallowed up or forgotten.

21:07 Yeah, I mean once the event is no longer in the public's eye and the main publics focus. What difference does it make? Sometimes the truth does come out later but the history books have already been written The kids are being taught in school that this was how it was And the alternative idea is sometimes its common perception, but I mean it still never gets full validity because it's already been cemented in history. Yeah and of course you know as I said the other problem is well even legitimately on 40 people just said well they came to a different conclusion big deal right you know we've already got one conclusion so why should we believe that one? I think a lot of people take that approach as well

21:47 It's just unfortunate that the speed that events occur and investigations are launched and concluded, it's all wrapped up. And people move on. It's almost like what else are we going to do but move on unfortunately? I also find it interesting there is a disproportionate number of Patsy's with three names John Wilkes Booth Mark David Chapman James Earl Ray...it's kind of uncommon David Morgan Well, most people have a middle name but it doesn't get used. You often find that in cases involving assassins the media decides to use the middle name. I've got a middle name, David, but you know it never gets used! With assassins it's almost always used and

22:32 three names rolling off the tongue, Lee Harvey Oswald James Earl Ray Mark David Chapman you know this goes on. It is almost to me it seems like it's done so people will remember it and they'll focus you know John Wilkes Booth even people will focus on it if we just say John Smith or John you know John Booth he doesn't sound that memorable except John Wilkes Booth or Lee Harvey Oswald. It becomes infamous, but in an infamous way a three-name title does become memorable in history and I do sometimes wonder if

23:16 That's the reason for it, that it's designed to keep that person in profile rather than someone else who may have been the culprit. Yeah maybe its a little neuro-linguistic programming we just haven't solved. Speaking of those types of things you also do dedicate a few pages to MKUltra and I'm sure all listeners are familiar with the term and that it was CIAs mind control program but you've done a lot of research into it. What threads do you find most interesting in the MKUltra saga? Well, one of the ones that fascinates me and which I've written about in a couple books and which I sort of touch upon here is the way in which MKUltra and some of its sub-projects may have actually been involved in the UFO subject as well. Right There are number intriguing threads in a number of intriguing UFO cases

24:08 that seem to suggest they may have been deliberately fabricated events, staged managed to try and present an alien angle. Essentially not necessarily deliberately always to provoke an alien angle but a along something along the lines of well if we can convince people they're seeing aliens, we can convince them about anything. Let's experiment on people to the absolute extreme possible and if we can convince them of this or convince some of that then the program is clearly good to go and I think you know that's important thing to remember. A lot of people don't realize or so just preface this by saying you know the famous Betty and Barney Hill case of 1961, the alien abduction story missing time etc etc well John Fuller wrote The Uninterrupted Journey in 1965 excuse me 1966 which was pretty much here the first full-length book on alien abductions a lot of people don't

25:11 with some of the mk ultra guys in this in the fifties at one point there are people who on the inside i wanted him to tell the story off and kyle track i think he took a big fascination it empalo trophy years under a theories and rumors that you know he may have been brought on board too essentially tell the alien angle of they'll case knowing or something else to it and i give me another example india turn of the nineteen seventies He wrote a book called The Day of St. Anthony's Fire, I don't know if you know that book but it is about an outbreak in France and it is non-fiction book but an outbreak in France essentially just an outbreak of wild hysteria almost like crazed hysteria in this little French village. There is good evidence now that this was some sort of mind control.

26:04 not so much mind control with chemicals but possibly some sort of aerosol-based stimulant to affect people's minds. He wrote an entire book about this and in more recent years, more and more data has come forward on this little French town suggesting it really was targeted for things like hallucinogenics just to see how it would people and that Fuller should have written about it in 1970 suggests he may well have had some inside data. So I think, for us, I don't think...I mean for me definitely one of the angles is although there is a genuine unknown UFO phenomenon, I also think that phenomenon may have been used again by sort of rogue agencies and things like this to see how far

26:57 the UFO subject can be used as a cover for other things and possibly even as a tool one day of manipulation. This whole scenario creating fake UFO events to essentially frighten the population, like a control factor that kind of thing Yeah, yeah. Could be and just like MKUltra having ties to both the CIA and Ufology The same can be said about Disney Let's talk about this Disney UFO documentary it seems pretty weird I mean now i've heard you can see most of it on YouTube but how did this happen? Well, yeah this is sort of almost one of those strange but true kind of things or the truth is stranger than fiction that sort of scenario. We have to sort of go... To understand the full story of the Walt Disney CIA connection we have to go back to the early 50's when there were major waves of UFO activity all across the nation in fact the world 1952 particularly was a really major year

27:58 We know through Freedom of Information Act documents that the Air Force, FBI and CIA were concerned. The Air Force certainly and the FBI were looking into UFO reports and collecting them. One of the bodies I should say of the CIA that looked into it was called the Robertson Panel and although the Robertson Panel was UFO themed, it wasnít so much looking at the issue of what UFOs are or where theyíre from. They were looking at it from their concern that the Russians might try and exploit the UFO phenomenon by planting hundreds and hundreds of fake reports in the US all at once, clogging up the emergency channels. And then allowing some sort of sneak attack or possibly to spread even worse stories and just have you know the US population in a state of hysteria

28:53 So they were looking at it from a psychological perspective. And one of the big recommendations that the Robertson panel had, which was actually I should stress this you know it'd be the team itself with some of the most sort of prestigious people in the defense world, the scientific community etc., psychologists as well and one of their recommendations was that the Walt Disney Corporation should be brought on board to make documentaries and cartoons, to essentially try and manipulate the US mindset, the population's mindset and attitude towards UFOs. So in other words it was a case of essentially creating propaganda um... to sway the public on this

29:43 in this direction or that direction, in terms of the UFO phenomenon. In one sense it gets quite sinister – the idea of little kids watching cool cartoons about UFOs yet they're subtly being manipulated to believe this and that. We know that in the 50's they were certainly approached uh... to make a documentary we actually have the freedom of information documents officially released that talk about you know let's approach the CIA but there are other stories one which came from a guy named Ward Kimball who was um, one of the big high ups in Walt Disney Corporation for years he talked about how there are other programs where for example the Air Force

30:30 had approached them, again with a view to making UFO documentaries. This is where it got really intriguing – the idea of making documentaries in the event that one day we need to tell people the full story and Kimball said he was told stories about how If the documentary went ahead, he would be shown film footage of UFOs in flight. Footage that could not be denied and that kind of thing. Now whether or not he was being used as a means to sort-of emphasize the alien meme so to speak... Or whether that was actually true we don't know but certainly Ward Kimball said that you know the Disney Corporation it was heavily linked to the UFO phenomenon and the intelligence community

31:18 Yeah, I think that's so interesting. Uh...I love that documentary is out there now and growing up i did have a little VHS tape of some World War II propaganda cartoons. I had no idea what was watching. I didn't find it funny but now that I've seen those things again I'm like yeah! That's complete propaganda about paying your taxes and how the US Empire is the good guy and just all that stuff. And why are you talking to kids about this? They don't have taxes to pay Well, yeah and I think you know one of the issues with children is where all of us when we're kids were sort of quite impressionable. Right! And that's an important thing to remember and that's why I often sort of worry about... occasionally worry but I don't dwell on it but I mean kids today they really don't have the sort of lives we had growing up everything's about staying indoors

32:12 listen to this, and you get your nose here. Don't go outside and play! My God you might get killed or you might fall over and cut your knee!" You know what I mean? This comes back to what I said about kids being impressionable that they're brought up today to accept that sort of... What in English is called the nanny state. Constance will say don't do this because that might happen to you and don't do that because this might happen to you. And if you don't do anything well nothing's going to go wrong And I think, you know again that's sort of today's equivalent of placing an impression upon someone to achieve a means and an end. Right? When i look at Disney I sometimes wonder if the social

32:57 experiment or the social engineering experiment of Disney with their connections to the CIA and propaganda videos and this UFO documentary. I wonder if that's where it ends or not because it would seem logical that it would extend other areas of Disney, and there are researchers like Freeman Fly and Jamie Henshaw who talk about the princess programming of Disney, that girls are taught to be materialistic and have unreal expectations of love. And also there's not very many Disney movies that have a strong mother you could say that social engineering in trying to disrupt the family because in every Disney movie it's either an evil stepmother or they kill the mother but there's very few I mean I struggle even name one off the top my head that has a strong mother character

33:44 I never really thought about that to be honest. This sort of gets to the heart of a lot of conspiracies, for me at least in the sense that what all this points to is us not seeing the big picture we've seen a fragment or we've seen an image and then it and we have an interpretation but we're not seeing the full picture of what's going on behind-the-scenes and what the motivation is you know for what is going on behind the scenes and I think that's a very important issue as well. And i'm just not sure, you know how we go about taking things further in some of these cases? I mean it's like a lot people with the Kennedy assassination just to quickly jump back to that

34:25 people say, yeah it's the Cubans or it's the Russians or whoever, the Mafia or whoever. And very often like you said people want it black and white but It's kind of like with a Disney thing when you have threads of a story Generally there are more and more threads But they don't all... You know The more you dig into it They often go in a lot of other directions Like for example to Walt Disney and the CIA Well Yeah was you know with the Robertson panel? But then Ward Kimball said spread further to the air force wanted to bring them on board as well and there also stories possibly about uh... having access or being given access at some point like alien autopsy footage that sort of thing now that's all the bags a question about these stories of alien autopsies where they real always i can agree with that so part of some sort of rose disorder trying to convince people that

35:19 aliens are here and it's not some sort of social control tool, you know. Yeah, it's tough to know and you are right. There are so many threads Another one in the Disney thing that I just thought of is all the subliminal messages people say they see in some of The movies they're a little bit sketchy And you're like oh I don't really know if that says sex and the clouds and Lion King or I don't really know If he says take off your clothes in Aladdin but when some cases It's very clear like in The Rescuers there is a frame one single frame where you look in the window and they've got a naked woman there that's not animated. They put, you know, a live picture of a naked woman in an animated movie and they always chalk this up to a disgruntled employee who was mad or prankster just wanted to put something in there kind like the lone gunman theory oh it is just this one guy It's not part of larger agenda but there are lot Disney movies include those weird subliminal references to sex

36:17 Yeah, I didn't actually know that. In Dumbo, he's ripped away from his family and abused in the circus. Bambi they shoot the mother Cinderella is an evil stepmother Alice in Wonderland is largely an orphan story so as Peter Pan There's no strong parental characters for those people Aladdin The Sultan doesn't really have a wife It's just him Jasmine's dad

36:54 Yeah, I mean it's kind of crazy. That's a pretty decent list of them and the Jungle Book another orphan story but it's like if for a company who everybody's first thought would be oh these are great stories for kids moral tales they're family-oriented well are they really? Because where is the family in a lot of these main movies I hadn't really looked at that. I've got to be honest, you know, I focused in the book and on the research on the tie-ins with the Robertson panel because it was such a strange story so I'm not one who dug into the whole

37:31 you know, Disney angle elsewhere. But I mean... Yeah. ...but it does get back to what I was saying that the more you dig into it although its fascinating the more data we dig up and thats one of the reasons why it becomes difficult to solve some of these mysteries because they're so huge in scope and taking so many different people at different strands and agencies and organizations that you end up with your head just spinning, because it's not black and white. The more questions you get or the more answers you find, it just leads to more questions. You find one answer but that one answer gives you another five questions. Those five questions might give you ten answers but provoke another 50

38:15 I hear you man, and it took us way off the map but to bring it back to your book here and bringing back to aliens for a minute. You also do write about in here cattle mutilations quite a bit and I guess cattle mutilations are something that I got the gist of when I was kid getting involved with UFO stories but never really dug too deep But these are really interesting cases because they did leave behind some physical evidence in a lot of cases didn't they? Oh yeah, I mean the reason I talk about this in the book because I'm sure all you listeners will have heard of cattle mutilations and for a few maybe haven't. Predominantly it sort of began in the 60s although there are some stories of earlier ones where cattle chiefly cattle but sometimes horses and other animals were found dead with organs removed with skin removed tongue gone eyes sexual organs

39:10 from predators like coyotes or wolves or whatever, anything like that. Mountain lions it looked like something essentially intelligent had sliced into them deliberately and carefully to remove certain specific items and very often these certain specific items would be typical of many of the attacks like I said certain organs in the lips, the eyes, think the sexual organs that kind of thing and very often we have reports of unmarked helicopters in the area, unidentified lights. Now the reason I included this in the book was one very important reason that through the Freedom Information Act

39:53 has released its files on capital mutilation actually available to down three download at the fbi's website the vault which is a really good website for accessing uh... previously classified documents that have been released through the freedom information act what makes these couple mutually reports really standout either many of them are being original new mexico state police reports really prompted the FBI to sit up and take notice. And I mean, if you look at the police reports they sound like something straight out of the X-Files. They sound like real X-Files in many respects they are. For example there's a case from 1976 investigated by Police Officer Gabe Valdez where a rancher

40:39 had found one of his cows missing and in the area there were these weird tripod landing marks. Scientists came out, this is all in the files, found that where the tripod marks were found there are elevated radiation readings there was a strange sort of chemical liquid found at the site which upon analysis nobody could figure out what it was. There were reports of black helicopters flying over in subsequent nights and this is just one of dozens of reports, the documents that the FBI have released are probably in the range about 300 pages now I think about 150 are at the site The other ones are sort of what's called the Rommel report which was

41:24 prepared by Kenneth Rommel, a former FBI agent who put it all down to predators and things like this. But if you read the original raw documents which are at the vaults, itís hard to come away from reading those and not realize that but something strange is happening. I'm not saying that there isn't a UFO component, but if you look at the reports it kind of sounds more like again like a rogue agency because the FBI clearly were not involved they were trying to figure out what was going on that they were part of some conspiracy what the hell's going on you know it is our jurisdiction uh... but it sounds like some sort of rogue agency may have been doing some sort of biological warfare or chemical warfare testing assault both uh... all possibly this gets even more disturbing fearful that some sort of virus and entered the food chain ever randomly

42:22 targeting cattle around the United States at random to see if there was any evidence of these emerging viruses or not. You think how many people in the US eat beef? If there were concerns and possibly still are concerns about some meat industry, you you could understand why there would be possibly some sort of clandestine group set up to periodically go out at random so that no pattern can be discerned. Weíll target a cow in Montana and then weíll fly over to Nebraska, etc., etc., and do three or four targets in each state and try and figure out if something is going on.

43:06 into the air. I don't know if you've read the book by Carl Keller, Her Brain's Trust? No! Oh that's a really good book. What it's all about is the massive rise that has occurred in the last few years – well not last few years but in the last 20 years in the US – massive rise in Alzheimer's. If you look at the figures from 1979 to now, it's like a jet fighter going vertical almost. like and carl keller has a few trade-in theory Mad Cow Disease, Kreisfeldt-Jakob disease when that broke out. He actually suspects that this massive wave of Alzheimer's that is developing and growing and growing almost at an unstoppable rate he suspects possibly the people being misdiagnosed and they may be suffering from something along the lines

44:02 I was she started to get confused, she started to get where she couldn't work properly. She worked at a petrol station and she's like the secretary and she couldn't do balance of the guys' wages at the end of the week. She got mixed up with that sort of thing and it progressed and progressed and she had to go see Alzheimer specialist who asked her kind of things what year is it? What date

44:40 things like that and it was clear that she had some sort of dementia. He said, well you know the classic symptoms of Alzheimer's but the important thing is and this is the same in US they don't always do like a scientific medical check. It's essentially like a psychological check and then they will come back and you know do more checks if her symptoms are worsening that's a sign, it's Alzheimer's and Keleher points this out the fact that how easy is for misdiagnosis to occur when you're going on the symptoms but I mean there are other similar conditions like one called Kuru known as the shivers famous story about a tribe in New Guinea who were

45:25 resorted to cannibalism and they developed a form of essential like CJD and they had the same symptoms. It wasn't Alzheimer's but it affected them in very similar fashion, so he actually makes a good case in his book that cattle mutilations and all UFO angle could be the cover story for deep seated fears that something has got into their food chain and we need to keep monitoring I mean, you know...

46:09 Originally coming from England, I mean i know...I remember well when the whole CJD Mad Cow thing broke out. It was almost like The Walking Dead you know they're going to say there were headlines like Britain infected gonna have to be placed under quarantine and all this and they literally killed pretty much the UK cattle herd, millions of cows and then he jumped to people and that's when the panic started. Up until that point a lot of English people ate beef but the number of people who actually got CJD was small even though interestingly enough English

46:46 figures for Alzheimer's have rocketed as well. So you know, you could make that argument there too but a lot of people who ate beef didn't get sick so I don't think everybody has to worry but if there is something along these lines going on, a certain percentage of the population may ultimately become affected by it. dark stuff, especially when the damage is already done. But well that you know, that's a scary thing because Some of these conditions actually can sort of take years to kick in I mean Kuru the one I mentioned That takes decades It pretty much wiped out now but occasionally still hear story other but that for example

47:32 That took decades and people have wondered if in certain people, mad cow could sort of lie dormant for years and then suddenly kicks in you know decades later. Yeah, I mean it totally could be and it is a little suspicious that in the 90s It was a big thing. I read even a Michael Moore book that focused heavily on mad cow disease And now nobody talks about it's not a thing don't worry about it Yeah another interesting story here I wanted to talk about and it is funny because you know when skeptics say things like oh Oh sure, there's always a conspiracy to you guys. There is always an alternative story Well you write about the disaster with the Challenger shuttle launch and everyone knows it blew up in midair And it's not shocking that something like that would happen at least once due to a freak accident But here again there seems to be a deeper story possibly

48:22 Oh yeah, and again this story that I tell in the book actually comes from the FBI's own files. It's not a case of me or some conspiracy theorist saying oh you know it must have been sinister because he exploded no! This actually comes from the FBI's own files actually January next year January 28th every 30 years since Challenger exploded to the day I'm sure there'll be a great deal of coverage in January next year. explosion, the disaster and the deaths of the astronauts was just put down to a disastrous tragic event essentially caused by an explosion of oxygen and hydrogen propellants that blew up the external tank. Then of course you know the whole thing erupted. It's a little known story that even in NASA's official report

49:29 they actually conclude that probably the astronauts survived in the escape pod and were killed from the impact of when they hit the ocean. There are certain suspicions and reasons why believe that they still were alive. I mean, they may have been unconscious but they may not have been but that's actually in the official report where they suspected that you know the astronauts weren't killed when it exploded on takeoff and so you know they lived a while longer. But what's interesting is again in the same way that the FBI has uploaded its cattle mutilation

50:06 file to its website, the vault. It's also uploaded its file on the investigation into the space shuttle disaster. Now, the reason why the FBI opened an investigation was because a number of people contacted the FBI to say that when we were watching it live on TV, I thought I saw a flash of light hit the tank as if something had been fired at it. There was talk of small guided missiles and laser weaponry and things like this, so the FBI went out and investigated these cases and some of them were very strange.

50:50 For example, one came from a woman. The section of the file concerning this woman actually runs to somewhere in the region about 35-40 pages many of which are actually still withheld to this day and they talk about how she was in touch with what she called higher forces uh... but it's clear uh... and actually number indications as to who she actually is. She was actually talking about essentially getting channeled messages from extraterrestrials and rather than dismiss her as a kook or anything like that the FBI investigated her story very closely and thoroughly, to where she related how these entities

51:36 I supposedly told her about some sort of hostile group that was going to bring down the shuttle and names of people involved, things like this. It was all taken very seriously. There are other cases where, for example right here in Dallas where I am there was a guy who worked in the video industry and he believed he'd seen something. He got recorded footage and they came out not in a sinister fashion but asking him to look at his old VHS tapes as it was at that time. And he's like yes sure if itís going to help?

52:15 and so in other words you had a number of fbi offices on the east coast west coast dallas elsewhere all looking into these theories that uh... you know the shuttle was destroyed as some sort of hostile events and um... i think the faith but some of the theories were really weird intriguing uh... and they said that's probably why they were taken so seriously as well. But one of the things I find interesting, even to this day is that you know the case...I won't say the files weren't closed they were closed but they weren't sort of dismissed as all these guys just crazy or this woman's crazy You know it was a case of please tell us what you think happened and we'll do our best to try and figure out what the truth is. Yeah there's definitely

53:06 several interesting threads and one that I thought really raised my eyebrow was apparently there was a guy who called a news station and said it was going to happen two days before it actually happened. That's pretty wild This is a really weird story. It actually involved a guy who reportedly did have psychological issues, but the fact is he did call to local newsroom and say that the shuttle was going to explode when it takes off and of course cover by a great about exactly what happened now it turns out he'd made a number of previous calls to news outlets saying the shuttle's gonna explode etcetera etcetera uh... i guess somebody might tell if you keep saying that eventually it could happen but even that sounds too far-fetched to believe you know that i have no um... it you know that the idea that if you say twice you know the shuttle can apply or preciate twice a year that

54:08 you actually want to be right you know i mean that's such a specific alarm in advance most people you know it's not like saying all what if i keep say my next door neighbor is going to get out you don't have the federal whatever well of course absolutely capital the time but that's a totally different thing But this guy, he made specific claims that it was going to explode not in space but actually on takeoff. And the FBI went out and found him and he was eventually dropped. They said that we realized that he'd made these claims before but if it was a coincidence and he didn't know something on the inside, it was really eerie coincidence – you know, the sort of thing that just doesn't happen really.

54:54 I'm with you. It's very odd and uh, I know a previous show we did We talked at length about the Marconi deaths at that corporation from this thing I guess from the 70s up to the 90s And there's definitely plenty of strange ones that make you think there's not a coincidence You know There's something more than coincidence going on but um in this book you also write about an odd string of deaths that are involving scientists in the microbiology field and these are a little bit more recent I guess between 2001 and 2005 ish. Can you tell us about a couple of these? I actually wrote about this in an earlier book called Close Encounters of the Fatal Kind, but this was sort of from the early 80's to the early 90's for the most part where a lot of Marconi scientists who were working on

55:47 uh... spy satellite programs underwater technology some of the people working on president reagan star wars strategic defense initiative where they were to be contracted out to the u k and i thought you know sorts of weird circumstances strange suicides jumping off bridges um... markings uh... sudden after the blowout attacks things like this that's exactly what happened in the field of microbiology but in the united states uh... from two thousand and one onwards um... we had literally dozens of people in the field of microbiology uh... essentially uh... dying just turning up dead and for those who don't know microbiology is basically stored as study organisms too small to be seen by bacteria viruses and of course you know in today's world

56:39 there's a lot of concern about viral outbreaks, you know the idea of somebody unleashing a biological weapon that kind of thing. So when these scientists started to literally drop like flies there were big concerns as to whether or not there was a pattern and if they'd been targeted and it pretty much all began in November 2001 and a guy named Dr Benito Kay He was actually found dead outside his lab at the Miami Medical School in Florida and there were stories about a mugger or group of muggers but it was sort of never really fully resolved to everybody's satisfaction for sure. Now 11 days after that, you had the death of a Russian microbiologist who defected to the UK Dr Vladimir Posashnik and he

57:30 essentially spilled his guts on the former Soviet Union's biological warfare program to British intelligence, told them just about everything they needed to know. As I said 11 days after Dr K died, Pesetschik died as well and This was November the 18th, I think something like that. Then on the 24th of November the FBI got concerned about the disappearance of a Harvard biologist Dr Don C Wiley He was someone who was heavily involved in researching deadly viruses and particularly Ebola for example. He later turned up dead as well, his car or the rented car he had was found on a bridge over the Mississippi River and his body was later found falling or jumped into the river and his body was retrieved.

58:30 Then we had like a range of microbiologist deaths from late 2001 through 2003 all across the world, Australia, Russia and China. It was literally like they were being taken out one by one. I mean to give you an example, on January 28th 2002 a microbiologist named Alexei Brushlinsky who is a member of the Russian Academy of Science He was supposedly killed in what was called a bandit attack, but he was one of Russia's major microbiologists. Then two weeks later there was a guy Victor Koshinov and he was also a noted Russian microbiologist. He told me the head at the entrance to his home in Moscow, Russia

59:23 and it turns out he was the head of the microbiology facility at Russia's state medical university. Now this sort of gave rise, although a lot of mainstream media said just coincidence you know if you look for threads you can find them but like with the Marconi scientist it was a series of deaths in such delineated period of time and so people started to get antsy as to, you know are they some sort of terrorist group targeting the very people who could help combat a viral outbreak. In other words if there was somebody wanting to release deadly pathogens the

1:00:02 the best thing they could do would be to kill the people who might be able to find a cure. You know what I mean? So in other words, then the other angle was that they were being killed because there were fearful... People who are fearful, they might be headhunted by or kidnapped by terrorists to work for them so we don't really know all we know for sure is that just like the Marconi scientists, we had people dying under extremely weird circumstances like sudden and out of the blue suicides when they weren't showing any signs of feeling depressed or suicidal, jumping off bridges, committing suicide by dying from carbon monoxide by putting a hose pipe from the exhaust through the car window and you know dying. And random strange events that just seem totally off-the-wall

1:00:54 You know, some people actually draw a parallel here with sort of MKUltra scenarios that people being given when they took these high pressure jobs on may have been subjected to sort of MKUltra trigger wording scenarios and you know when they finish their work or they got problematic and somebody wanted them gone. You give the trigger word and there in that trance like state and I do what essentially somebody wants them to do, which may be jump off a bridge or commit suicide in a car. That kind of thing. Yeah man it's been great talking to you. The Secret History again I loved it! It is a great book and it's awesome that we got to talk about such a variety of things over two shows. I mean it's a lot of material and we definitely didn't even talk about half of it so before we go you want to let the people know where they can keep up with you again? And where they could get this book before we call it in

1:01:50 Yes, sure. Well it's called Secret History published by Visible Ink Press and you can get it off the shelves in Barnes & Noble or on Amazon People can reach me at my blog if you just type in Nick Redfern world of whatever that'll show you the link people will also reach me at Twitter Or just typing Nick Redfern Facebook and they can find me there as well Boom. Good deal! Thanks again, I'm sure we'll talk again before too long but until that day take care of yourself out there man. You too Greg thanks alot. Rock me like a hurricane people, another one bites the dust. I think we definitely got into some interesting territory Lincoln and MLK Jr., and some of the details around the alternative use of events there which i think show larger signs of a wider pattern We touched on MKUltra which I've been getting a lot of requests for a full mind control show And I just so happen to have one right around the corner but The threads between CIA & Disney and MKUltra and UFO phenomenon

1:02:49 I find that stuff really interesting. I don't know what the hell to think, except a few key players had their hands in a lot of pots back then... It makes me wonder about the whole field of ufology? Are they beings from outer space or inner earth? Are these people experiencing the effects of androgynous DMT dumps in the brain? Is this thing a PSYOP? Are UFO's the maintenance crew for our galactic fishbowl? I wouldn't really be shocked to discover any of those answers are true at this point. I think you can make a good case for most of them if your savvy enough It's good give a little air time to cattle mutilations which again might be alien or might be man Nick seems to think it was most likely military experimenting with weaponry, or something perhaps research-based but most likely down-to-earth explanation and i don't have any issues with that except that one up the details in one of the accounts

1:03:39 Nick talks about in the book says that one of the farmers cows had both back legs pulled out of the socket as if something tried to lift it up from its back angles, which is pretty freaky. And then of course the crazy string of Marconi deaths which we discussed last week as a possible link to this sentient black goo. Of course, we've spoken with Nick about the Marconi deaths in the past and funny thing I was listening to Joe Rogan and he talked about the same string of deaths! I do love when that happens when an underground story with deep implications or a subject i consider really fringe...I love it when I see a breadcrumb

1:04:18 to Eric Dubay and the flat earth even got a mention on Rogan the other day I could not believe, i was hearing eric dubays name come out of Joe's mouth Such a funny series of events all he said was that some crazy guy on twitter told him that Eric Dubay had some great material On the flat earth and Joe said he just replied in all caps no He doesn't

1:04:58 And some people find that dismissive, but you know I thought it was a little conspiratorial Easter egg to get to hear that. I mean probably 5% of the listeners of the show Know what the hell he might be talking about But I do think conspiracy culture is growing! I think its just becoming apart of internet culture too The internet loves to share taboos...I mean what can ya do? But in the plus show with Nick today we talked about other strings of deaths Doctors, bankers, microbiologists Strange clusters, people. We talked about the anthrax attacks the week of 9-11 and the evidence that was a lesser, talked about false flag that faithful week in September 2001. We talked about Jack The Ripper and theories behind that saga depopulation tracking devices and all kinds good stuff you know the drill if your interested 5 bucks a month five shows a month 95% of time because I know i was supposed to have another show out before this month but I got on the call

1:05:58 and the guest just didn't have a good enough microphone or quiet enough environment. So we had to push it back a week I am sorry, i was disappointed too but I think its just better to do it right than worry about what side of September 31st is on 9 times out 10 I record interviews 2 or even 3 ahead to be safe and know how im gonna roll them out but I got a little jammed up and then didn't want to sacrifice the quality. I know it happens sometimes, in the past 10 shows i've probably had 6 that weren't ideal. I'm trying to spend more time up front communicating with guests what will cut it and what wont. And sometimes with some guests is a record while they're on their neighbors cell phone or you don't get it type of deal. Those are decisions I guess I have to make but this one wasn't going to be good enough We're doing next week

1:06:52 Of course there will be six shows in September now. I have several already booked and i'm pretty psyched, i'm catching up There are a couple of powerhouses in there if the universe keeps smiling on me September is supposed to be a crazy month according to so many people Economically in relation to CERN and in relation to Jade Helm who knows? Conspiracy people always seem to think something big is coming but i'm taking notice that's for sure I guess that's it for me today. I will pick a money bomb winner on the 31st, watch your inboxes keep your pimp hands strong and pentagrams tight Your move assassination architects mind control masters and propaganda programmers Your fricken move I got a new life You would hardly recognize me Im so glad Now im amazing I don't care about you Why do i bother

1:07:45 When you're not in the club with me I saw the sign and it fell on my eyes, I saw the sign Life is deemed understanding! I saw the sign, fell on my eyes, I saw the sign Three Masons gonna bring you up Get you into the light where you are Under the pale moon These rituals will make who you are

1:08:25 I saw the sign and it opened up my eyes. I saw the sign and it opened up my eyes. I have left you, I saw the sign And it opened up my eyes. I saw the sign Three minutes is gonna drag you out Guess we'll wait till our life's where you are I saw the sign

1:09:53 I saw the sign And the wind in my eyes, I saw the sign