Natalia L. Forty | Decolonizing Puerto Rico, Caribbean Spiritualism, & Tarot

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00:51 Which means you'll unfortunately never hear my voice again. In the 1930s, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed the nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the Fireside Chats His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times From 1930 and I deal with a different kind of fire For a new era of worldly frustration we offer a fresh conversation I'm Greg Carlwood Alright people, from sunny San Diego I'm Greg Carlwood and when we look at the history of Archon Infected Empire expansion it's clearly carved a very cold and bloody path to the place we are today.

01:42 In fact, it's almost impossible to truly reel back its influence, its baggage and the occupation of ideas that still poison the mental well of humanity. Just look at something like language or even food and you'll see how quickly Empire comes up In the context of spirituality and magic, this often means that any Westerners interested in rejecting the materialist model or the angry dad-in-the clouds paradigm were presented with. And walking down the path less traveled will usually start with the works of Manly P. Hall, Alastair Crowley, Blabatsky, The Golden Dawn, or any of the initiatory orders or secret societies that not only dominate the literature but often have too cozy of a relationship with the state to make me all that comfortable myself

02:26 But eventually the western blinders come off and we see that magic and spirituality are about as universal as they get. And only because of the brutal steamroll of colonization have we lost that understanding, and oftentimes the fractured communities in their wake as well And today I think many of us are looking back at the cultures and people that the power pyramid has used and abused, and are trying to unpack their ways and their understandings of life in reality. Because the answers yielded by The All-Knowing Empire are not nearly good enough! So with us here today is Natalia L40 a writer storyteller cartomancer advocate of the magical worldview from Puerto Rico who details her journey on her blog Mist & Ether

03:08 She's pursued her education in literary theory and criticism with undergraduate studies in English literature. She is also the author of The Poetic Arcanum, and The Otherworldly Journey With the Suit Of Swords where she combines storytelling and poetry with the rich and deep symbolism of the tarot. So let's do it! The Caribbean cartomancer lover of literature and devinatrix extraordinaire Natalia welcome to THC Wow that is an excellent introduction hello. I try i try and thanks for doing this it's always exciting when i ask someone if they be interested in being a guest and there actually a listener already so that was nice, the real catalyst for asking what does pc wrote called the politics of unnamed desires which will get into, seems like its far more political than your usual writings but

04:01 I found it right at a time when i was also thinking about the fact that i'd love to have more guests from outside, western bubble or at least talk to people more embedded and raised in the cultures that not only have deep spiritual and magical traditions but. Also have been impacted pretty dramatically by colonization And Puerto Rico seems like it checks both of those boxes pretty boldly. And it still has a lot of struggle and turmoil caused by its odd nebulous status with the United States, so I think you'll have a lot of interesting things to share with us. I suppose this might be one of your first podcast appearances? So maybe we could start with where you might have either

04:44 I have seen either of those two things growing up, spiritualism and magic or the negative effects of colonization. How do those things impact a person born and raised in the Caribbean? Oh goodness! That is quite a question. All right well i wasn't raised in Puerto Rico. I was raised in Florida where you know there are many many Puerto Ricans and I came to Puerto Rico to study to continue my higher education So, I transferred to the University of Puerto Rico. It was a big culture shock. Just with that alone, I was raised with not a grounded identity you could say because I wasn't part of Florida and Puerto Rican so I lived there and I was raised there but in part it wasn't my

05:31 culture, you know? And then I came here and that was the case as well. I found a great culture shock and of course I visited Puerto Rico frequently every year and I think I've always kept retained this feeling of not belonging anywhere and I think that what I feel in living here because also if moved around quite a bit I think there is a lot of inarticulated, especially here in Puerto Rico not belonging. You know we belong to this land you know we are all Puerto Rican and have this shared culture so we belong right? But I think one of the

06:17 deepest fissures in colonization that happens in the individual is that it disconnects you from the land and from community. And this is the type of, this is the landscape that you find here amongst people there's just a disparate feeling that is connection through culture but its superficial culture. A lot of our culture is derived from the United States We've been colonized for more than 500 years. First it was the Spanish, then it was the U.S., and that's why I titled my article Unnamed Desires because we do not even know how to articulate who we are, where we fit because we haven't even given—you know, we don't take—we

07:08 Not that we don't take that, there's nothing to take because what can we take? We're an island. A small island So, all that frustration is what you feel living here. But there's a lot of as usual in the States competition etc., but there is a lot of thievery piracy, corruption as in the States and many other places but here it It just has a different feeling to it. I don't know, and I think it's because we don't have the sense of place and of belonging. And so with spiritual communities here, that is one way that we retain a sense of community

08:03 one of the ways, because there are also people that don't belong to any spiritual communities. But in spiritual communities you find relief, you're able to communicate and even if certain things are unaddressed and unsaid but living, the daily living and the daily pulling through that is addressed in spiritual communities. And I think that is why there are you know communities as a big thing here, spiritual communities even the Christians and you know the different denominations, the different types of communities outside of Christianity as well, spiritism and also in Santeria and all other different communities, spiritual communities

08:53 Well, I think that makes a lot of sense. Even just to see something like you use the tarot a lot and it seems like you're using a Spanish Tarot deck. That in itself is clearly there's some major influence and it's got to be a strange feeling of not having a ton of autonomy because you always have this overarching empire? Yes! That was the word I was looking for Yes and even just the idea of not really knowing where you're from or not having a connection with your heritage, i think that's big for any american because you go back a couple hundred years and none of us were originally from here so sometimes I think about just the idea of

09:36 Okay, so I'm largely Swedish and Polish. Well you know how different would life be if you were raised in a place where your entire city is Swedish and Polish with a heritage that goes back generations? And it's kind of crazy. be clear, this is not something voiced. This is not something articulated. What I'm saying could be heretical in a sense to a lot of people they will deny it like what are you talking about? But if you see it every day because there's complete disregard for the land here and Puerto Rico the highest bidder is the one that takes the piece

10:14 And especially if they come from outside, you know? All our land is sold. It's sold disregarding whoever lived there or whoever they have to move so that this high This other can purchase this land or this place. And you see it here in the people as well, I mean the amount of trash that you find...I mean I see it just driving people to throw trash out their window! You know a bottle here? A beer can over there and its And that is a sign of a person that has no regard for the land that they walk on, you know? That they belong here. They should participate in some way other than just let me see how far I can get ahead above this other person. Let me see who I can bring down today." You know like that!

11:10 Right the warped ways the western definitely contagious we get caught up in the wrong incentives and all that yeah i'm not surprised someone who moved to puerto rico because their puerto rican was hoping to feel more connected has these sorts of. Thoughts about the land on there mine because it seems like even the native population is dealing with their own disconnect either conscious or unconscious feelings of, defeat because there's a big international mining corporation raping the land poisoning the water so an individual could easily feel like well fuck it what's. The use and finding the trash can when this shit going on over there i could definitely understand that sort of stuck feeling dance and just a little bit more about the history you sum up the story really well with this paragraph from that post where is say,

12:05 Send the quote unquote discovery of puerto rico by the europeans island quickly moved into the possession of spain under which the land was mind and exhaustion all the golden riches immediately shipped back to the continent indigenous people of the land mixed died or went into slavery. Typical story of the caribbean right puerto rico isn't unique in this what is island is particularly unique and is that after centuries under spanish rule at a mild skirmish between the spanish and british over ownership united states took over after the spanish american war.

12:43 The island passed now into the ownership of a new head, a new banner and a new culture. Are you seeing a thread here? Speed up a couple hundred years and here we are still under the wings of the United States at no point in our history longer than a day after the Europeans stepped foot on the island have the people of the Island been sovereign if you sit and think about that fact and about the repercussions this reverberates into a people into the land well it's quite something... It is crippling and i just think that is a killer paragraph definitely have the. Also i listen to those san siesta brujo louise interviews that you had sent me which fold in the magical context within this unique history and he refers to puerto rico as a big magical melting pot not only are there many traditions across the islands but port

13:36 Puerto Rico is also the first place that African slaves were brought to, so their traditions have folded in and mixed as well. And then of course you've got to add that Christianity current running through everything and it just seems like after all this history it's pretty safe to say that Puerto Rico is a fairly unique and interesting cultural and magical microcosm isn't? Yeah, it is. I mean you can find that in other places in the Caribbean and obviously in other places and different countries but yeah some...it created quite an interesting mix here and now you have

14:17 You know, you have Espiritismo, you have Espiritismo Cruzado, Folclorico. Those are just different branches of Spiritism, you know? Kardecian Spiritism that got absorbed into different ways of life and different cultures that came from other places and they just made it their own within the community You know, those different communities that took the Kardakian spiritism and made it their own and transformed it in many ways. And I think it's beautiful! Yeah! What traditions maybe seem the most popular? How widespread is magic and spiritualism down there because of course if you've lived in Florida, now you also live in Seattle almost non-existent. How far does it penetrate down there?

15:07 It's pretty deep. I mean, and obviously it depends on the house on the temple and the different spiritist house but it is popular to approach spiritism And it said that that is the foundation you know whichever other branch you want to follow, whichever other tradition you want to follow. Spiritism provides the foundation with how to work with ancestors and how to work Las Causas and things like that that provide a foundation so when you move into another tradition, you have that solid base that gives you the tools

15:48 for spirit work, basically. For working with spirits and interacting with spirits and recognizing different types of spirits and things like that. Obviously each tradition has their own spirits in ways of recognizing I don't want to you know...I'm not part...I don't know! You know each temple is different but i do know that it is popular approach Spiritism from that perspective, that it is the foundation. So you begin there and you refine your... You hone your skills as a spirit worker through Spiritism and then you start evolving moving meeting other temples other people and from there you branch out in your path is made clear I guess so way to see it

16:30 Right on. So you mentioned that you're part of a spiritist house, can you tell us anything more about yours and why you might have chose it over others? Well I don't know that in my case i didn't really choose it...I just found myself going there It was because I met this person through a job And i know her and our friendship and relationship grew through that job and then i met my partner and from there he also had a friendship with her and.

17:16 We began forming part of her group and going to the sesiones, misas and all that. And it just slowly evolved because we weren't part of it immediately. We just went you know to the special days, you know special celebrations for the saints and things like that participated in but then slowly we began integrating ourselves more and now I'm part of it. So is it Spiritual hierarchies that define a spiritualist house versus another one or is it more of the contact techniques are little about. I don't know that there are higher keys no i don't that's not no,

18:02 So you mean like different types of temples? What would be the difference?" I think it's the approach. Some temples are heavy in the Kardec, Kardecian spiritism and they have a specific structure and how they address it and there more temple where you go to temple, a building. Other places are in a home beside the home, you know, a structure beside the home and so they each vary in approach and it's not by hierarchies I think its more approach and I haven't visited that many temples either but what I've noticed is from

18:52 is the approach, basically. I mean they have the same structures you know? You open with a prayers and Oraciones Escojidas which is of small book with prayers you know you open this same way but some have more steps and others have less steps some have it's just...I think its more structural than anything right on ride on maybe hierarchy is the wrong word to use and panty on would be a better one but i guess i'm asking about the different groups of spirits are types of entities that spiritualist house might have a connection to or emphasize contacting on the other side.

19:38 Because my thought is that a group is usually working from specific grimoires maybe they might focus on communication with the dead or another discipline might work with archangels are planetary energies are bigger archetypal forces i'm sure some traditions brought their gods and spirits from where they were before. reference brujo louise again he talked about a kind of spirit i never heard about called madama's i mean really there dead humans but he said that they're very potent powerful spirits that were. Apparently the mothers of children are being shipped off into slavery sometimes they drown their own children to save them from the horrors ahead,

20:23 Pretty sad and heavy stuff but the more i learn about ancestors spiritual traditions and spirits of a people or of the land. It seems like a microcosm like puerto rico would be pretty wild so these groups i'm used to hearing about the golden dawn inaki and magic, they all focus on working with their own spiritual forces i guess i would ask is there a difference between. The spirits of different branches of voodoo or santa reia and the spirits that your own house tends to work with So, there are several things. Madamas and different types of spirits they have to do with a court and each person has a court is born and has a number of spirits typically seven sometimes nine and they're the spirits that surround you kind of like spirit alleys

21:21 allies. And so these are the court, ancestors everyone works with ancestors that's that is the core of spiritism you know with a mesa blanca you know or the white altar which is you know the fount of water always and typically across a metal cross the prayer book It's sometimes a goblet of water or, you know it depends. Some people put offerings on that altar others don't but that is the altar where you interact with ancestors and you honor that but the courts is not so much a hierarchy although there are, there is a principal spirit that you have

22:07 that is the main one, the top one I guess is the best way to say it. The main one, the holy guardian angel or the guardian angel? Let me not say the holy guardian angel, I don't want to get into that but the guardian angel which is the principal spirit and then you have the core which are all of your spirits No they bring different things into the mix and a contribute to different things into your why do you are what your vision is in life what you doing my friend how you move forward an elevation that many

22:46 many layers to this. When you typically go to Misa, there you work las causas which is I guess the direct translation is causes but it's not a cause. It's more you address issues sometimes its issue with different types of spirits. You could consider this however problematic lower level spirits and you elevate them, it goes by each individual that's what you work in these Misas and sometimes you also address things in the issues with the spirit in the courts, in the courts of each individual so things like that its more like going to

23:29 I don't know, a doctor? You address spiritual issues. Spiritual things that need addressing. Sometimes someone threw you the evil eye and you have things going on bad luck in your life so it's addressed in these sessions but hierarchy yeah there is a type of hierarchy and spirits work with their Sansei, that's outside my bounds I do not know But there are different types of spirits. There's 21 divisiones, which has the mysteries, the 21 mysteries and there are different types of spirit in general as far as Spiritism goes. There is the cuadro, there is the ancestor altar and they're separate typically you know the mesa blanca where we work with ancestors and then the quadra which is your saints your allies

24:21 Some people don't have altars to them, others typically do and they take on the face of saints. Different types of spirits, indigenous spirits and yeah, madamas. Right on! So I mean the quartz idea is pretty interesting. I've obviously heard of spirit allies but how does one determine their quart or what quart they're connected to? Do you go to an expert who tells you? Typically yes So, it requires a specific type of Misa to investigate your court. But if you belong to a spiritual house then slowly by little, slowly little by little, you start knowing! You know the more you interact the more you get...you know, you learn about spirits and interact with your own spirits

25:14 and learn, and grow then you kind of start knowing who they are. And then it's always good to get... If one is interested so if you belong to a spiritist house by your godmother or godfather you would get the investigation which look into who your court is. Specifically, and a Mesa is basically like a magical session I guess I would say yeah Brujo Luis kind of breaks it down as three different stages you open with the prayer then you do some like kind of cleaning use some waters to purify to clean and then that's when the real work begins but he describes them pretty

25:57 Intense stuff i mean really intense channeling mounting of the medium yes i mean it seems pretty wild and i think a lot of times american culture just kind of. It hurts the potency of magic because it is so loud and bright, And from what the interviews I've had, it seems like spirits are pretty sensitive to certain things and you really do need quiet stillness isolation to a degree. I mean they're trying to penetrate around that necessarily isn't really theirs or we're trying to penetrate there so it's hard to really get a strong connection with a lot of distractions around but the stuff he describes is pretty wild. Have you seen any particularly potent spirit contact?

26:42 Yes, indeed. And you'd be surprised! I mean yes, some spirits with everything, there are different spirits, different people, different animals, there's differences everywhere, there are different types of things in this world I like to say in Spanish, which is a Bible verse or saying. Which basically means there's everything in the... Everything! There's every type of everything. You can see

27:22 So you'd be surprised because some of these, especially when there's a special missas held or special festivities held it gets pretty loud and with the music. There is still people that mount spirits so it just – there are different types of spirits but there is when you go to a missa There tends to be a small group, although in the templos they are larger. There is an order and so the head medium was the one that oversees the whole Misa but there is quiet that's why you begin with prayers and ideally one should be in a state of

28:12 I mean, you don't go full meditation. You have to be aware of what's going on but you know, attention is the best word. One should be in a state of attention to be aware etc and quiet but that's not always the case sometimes it gets loud and You know, spirits do still show up and especially if spirits show up you know the getting loud possibility is definitely a thing. But yeah so it's not... Not set in stone it's not one thing or the other you know. Right right and i know what's also usually a pretty personal or private type situation but, in terms of mounting spirits are just spirit contact i'm always really interested and trying to solidify like what their personalities are like or

29:07 What kind of messages come from these entities cuz i haven't had a lot of personal experience i really just get stories from people who are more embedded in that environment and, i guess is there any kind of messages that you've seen or maybe intense mountains where u. Like your and yours talking to a spirit directly because the personality of the person gets kinda out of the way these things are very too a lot of people who have been Point blank experience spirit communication have you ever gotten any messages or seen messages come out in a group that were interesting. Yeah, no of course. I mean that's one of the major points of having a spirit mount or having that type of interaction is for the message you know? If a spirit mounts it's to bring a message sometimes mediums pass la causa, you know the lower level spirits they pass them through their body and they give them resolution and so yeah there's always a message

30:11 A conversation i guess you know what kind of feel do you get from the messages that the spirits think are so important are they. Sometimes dark and menacing and grandiose are they personally directed to people in the room are they more like what you hear from ect contact is that we need a change our ways and be stewards of the land i know there all different but other certain themes in these messages that maybe come out more than others, no it's typically practical if its lower level spirit my gals.

30:47 that is being lifted from a person and the medium is mounted or this, the person etc. It gets dark you know? It gets dark in the sense that what they're saying is sometimes violent definitely Just violent, yeah. Unwelcome but when it is a spirit an ancestor from the cuadro or higher level spirits they come with a message for sometimes the group typically the group let me say sometimes a group or individual or two individuals and it's typically practical

31:35 It's practical, like pointing at things that need to be looked at and addressed in a person's life or spiritual life that need work and that need attention. So it is definitely typically practical. And there is evidencia. Evidencia is where it is confirmed through another or through... you know? Yeah, there is confirmation. There's in that sense with mind-spirit interaction Mm-hmm right on so to get into tarot a bit Obviously we've talked about on the show before a lot of listeners are familiar with the basics But why does Tarot resonate so strongly with you? And how do you understand the mechanisms behind why it does seem to yield some truly meaningful insights okay, so

32:26 This is a little aside from spirituality But I do bring it in and involve it in spirituality. So tarot for me is a language plain and simple It is a language visual language that so when you look at the cards You ask a question, typically it is a practical question and these images arise. And I think the beauty of tarot is when the person reading the cards is able to see that answer in a way that not... In a very

33:08 precise way, you know? In a way that helps you recontextualize your question. And obviously you always answer your question because the tarot reading for me always starts with the question but the beauty of Tarot is that since it is another type of language, a visual language, a language of forms then it's a way to step outside of your normal language words and you see the visual, and you see things often. You know? The reader answers the question in seeing things that they might have not seen or noticed or been aware of. That's I guess what I feel tarot is at base level. It is a visual language of forms

34:00 And the form can take on many things. That's why I really like the Marseilles or even playing cards because it is, it's so malleable You can take these sticks, for example. Batons or these swords and when you see them progress... I also don't read one single card. You see them progress because for me since it is a language you have to see how it moves from card to card. And so when you see it transform into another image and another image

34:38 I don't know, there's a poetical or lyrical beauty to that. And when you use it to answer questions the insight cuts really deep. And I think that's good about reading more than one card if it is a language its better to communicate in sentences then single words Because you have a pretty robust education in literature and an interest in the east of terica curious, do your thoughts on like archetypes and narrative how deeply they might be entangled with our lives reality cuz i heard people say that the universe runs on narrative and archetype do u feel the same way.

35:20 Yes, I do. And it's because for me the universe the way I see it is lyrical. The universe is in constant conversation and I don't want to say universe in some far off abstract way but life all these beings and spirits, everything that we're interacting every day with our bodies are interacting with. Our bodies are living in this temporally here and there's a constant conversation going on, you know? That is very lyrical. And often the way I see archetypes and I haven't really studied a lot of Jung what I know of Jung is what Gordon White has talked about but for me archetype's that language that lyricism it's just another word for this upwelling this discourse that we catch

36:19 The way that's why I at one point in my blog i would always emphasize paying attention being aware but it is because of this you know when you live more aware when you pay attention instead of you know and some abstract things and all these holes and you know and all these. You know, in the case of tarot you know all these meanings and significations that someone said and someone said then another said. When you just pay attention you see that it is all just there! And that you don't need to come up with these significations

36:59 all this added baggage, it's just there. Just read the language, read the images, read the forms that are in constant conversation and in constant interaction and tension." And that for me what archetype It is the upwelling of that and that's why i think it isn't during it is a pack of cards that they converse through. They're very nicely packed in seventy eight you know seventy eight guards and its just it's useful tool useful interface for that.

37:41 And so to get a little more into that post that I liked so much, the politics of unnamed desires. The post was largely about recent protests in Puerto Rico and you say around half a million people congealed to dethrone the governor for a level of blatant corruption and disregard for the people of the island And I'm sure we're all familiar with puppet leaders who just serve the larger empire or people in power who are very disrespectful to the people they're supposed to be nurturing. But what can you tell us about maybe those protests for a lot of Americans who probably weren't even aware half-a-million people congealed to dethrone a governor? What were those protests about, and has there been any real resolution now since it has been a bit of time since you wrote that. Yeah I did consider writing a follow up post but i left it unfinished so what happened is that well there was already a lot of displeasure with

38:40 Governor, you know he was incompetent. He's appointing people in his cabinet and that were just stealing from the community from the general people of the island and many schools have been closing for years public schools so there was just a lot of discontent A lot of people were unhappy but it's nothing new with every new governor people are unhappy But in this one, it was that chat. It was the chat that was published by El Nuevo Día, one of our newspapers and it was a very obscene chat, private chat obviously between the governor and some of his buddies in power. It was very disrespectful to communities

39:31 LGBTQ communities, communities of different mobilities. You know the dead that went unburied and unfollowed up with after the hurricane and it was just very disgusting many people they obviously many people read it and they were scandalized by the blatant disregard from those in power and I just think you know It's always been the case, they just now saw it in print. They just now could not avoid recognizing it you know?

40:08 many groups mobilized through social media and locally, and the protests happened. So many protests happened not just the one that I spoke of many did there were protests in Old San Juan, in Fortaleza which is where the governor lives it went on for quite a few days yeah. And obviously the other component to that post is your Insights from terror and i guess i'm curious how that maybe help you get a deeper understanding of what was going on there cause i read the post but for people who are maybe trying to. Understand how the tarot can get you a deeper understanding of something

40:54 That's kind of abstract that isn't such a personal thing like where am i gonna find love or what's my next job what kind of insights did the tarot yield for you in terms of trying to. Maybe get a better grip on the depth of this discontent and the reason for the protests so i read terror for context, When I read Tarot and the questions, when myself go to the cards or someone else comes to me that's why emphasize a question. I look at context for me tarot is is the perfect what is it? The lens for context so you want to see... You know I don't wanna talk about, I don't wanna look at how

41:42 Myself and my identity and all these things are moving, it's always good yeah but that is not important because identity is such a malleable thing. It's always transforming an interacting with the greater you know with what is experiential in the landscape, et cetera. So I read tarot for context so I look at what the context of what's going on beyond what is seen superficially and when I read the cards that's what I wanted to look at.

42:22 what is really going on? What is really happening and what is going to happen?" Is this just all for show or is there really potential for change here, or not. That's why I read the cards and it was useful. I don't want to disparage the protest. We have so many people I don't want to disparage the protest because it helps solidify a people, you know? It helps people see that the people that live in this island and also outside because there were a lot of people who traveled into the island to participate.

43:06 That we can do something that we can get together that we can mobilize so it is important you know what is it a good thing you know there are good things I came out of it. I don't know there should be more for me there should be more and so what's the cards, indicated is that, you know this is just another step in the process. And now as things stand really there's someone else that came into a lady she was the Secretary of Justice she just took up the seat of power I guess you could say but now

43:51 just another person there. Another person there and things continue, and I know there's... And I noticed it when I read the newspaper that there is an emphasis on look where this is what she's doing, this is what her cabinet is doing, look at all these changes but really what's coming to light is that there was a lot of steps procedures bureaucracy in place that incapacitates The people and so now we're you know, we're in the process. She's in the process So the government is in the process of getting more federal money having that federal money go to the places that need it but now the different municipalities and the mayors of the Municipalities are saying that the money isn't reaching them. So they're not able to fix the roads and the homes etc And so it's just a big web

44:47 place that makes it really hard to address issues that we have as an island, you know? Poverty and things that need to be fixed. I'm sure you know the phrase that people use here obviously the machine is bigger than anyone person but the phrase always hear is hey meet the new boss same as the old boss yeah basically that's how it feels like for me i mean no politics years said. How long make you know what such a volatile thing that some people be known for them something is happening in my opinion now no it's just continue

45:29 as normal. Now that we're talking about parceling out different, restructuring the land and a planification committee that way make it more accessible for outside companies to buy land and make paradise here for hotels and things like that so you know those are things that bother me. If I'm really frank this is probably not welcome sentiment or acknowledged If I'm really frank, all that is useless. All these attempts at making a better place government-wise and putting all these steps into place

46:17 putting more procedures and more steps for someone else to come in by the land and make you know a paradise for someone else. And it's just insufficient that's why I think it is important for each individual, thats why has to be each individual that decolonizes that each individual goes through the process of decolonization, of seeing things as they are. Not living in this fantasy land because half the people here are living in this fantasy land you know that we can

46:53 we can continue living off of the milk that comes from the US, you know the federal government. And it's just insufficient and all our food a lot, a great portion of our food comes from ships when each one us can...and there are communities mobilizing agricultural communities yes but No, there needs to be more. How can we be destabilized when we can grow food? We can create communities that provide for these things when a hurricane happens because hurricanes are going to continue happening. People pretend that we live in a bubble but we live in the Caribbean and hurricanes pass through here so they will continue passing through here as normal and they will most likely get worse

47:47 So, you know it's we don't see the real picture. The big picture we don't see things as they are and that is why I think each individual this is me saying it but I cannot make someone else go through a process. This is just how I view it. You know? This what is important to me the process of decolonizing the self of seeing things as they are and of removing all this baggage of shit. Yeah, yeah! Well that's kind of what I... you know when we started talking about colonization and the magical community and you know i mentioned that you use a Spanish Turo deck and it's kinda like

48:32 It's so ingrained that it's hard to reverse engineer it's hard to really unravel all the effects of it and maybe thats not, the goal may be that shouldn't be the goal like you mentioned the decolonization of the mind maybe it should just be that it should be like we can change the past were not going ever Return to a pure and untainted porto rico i'm poor rican culture you know it's always gonna have these influences that have been brought in, add i guess that everywhere is that really the end of the world i mean i guess. It just is what it is but

49:07 decolonize in the individual how you look at that is probably the important step to take no and i'm not you know i'm not saying we should go back to a pristine place where never been pristine you know we've been moving from place to place and interacting you know, we've never been pristine there's no such thing as pristine nature now What I mean is that, is understanding our place. Knowing where we are and thinking okay what can we do? What can I do because I can't force anyone next to me. What can I do you know and find what you can do for yourself and for your life and for your family to make it clear to make it just more...and I don't want to say authentic because that's just overused but just too

49:59 Just to have clarity, to know where you stand. To know where you are and who you are and what is around you. And the land that you walk on – obviously that's very important for me! The land! I'm not saying everyone should go back to a pristine place but I am saying everyone should be honest with themselves And learn to pay attention, and learn to be aware. Learn to be in place and embody in place because instead of living in some fantasy land especially now with cell phones I very much agree with Peter Grace's sentiments society of surfaces no substance so it is definitely the case here as well

50:49 Especially since school, you know? Since very early age they're telling you all these stories that are dissonant with the land that you walk on. The place that you live in and who you are! You ask half of people here when there are polls, Are you white? Are you this? And a lot of them will say white And it's just funny, I mean okay there are white people here as in the color but you know it's just...I don't know. It's more! Yeah i really think you're on a roll here and i do think that this stuff is super important you mentioned getting your food from ships and that's the big thing like what is a better reaction if your angry at the empire and you want things to be decolonized ultimately

51:39 Is it better to protest in the streets and then go have a Coca Cola that came off that ship? Or is it better to just stay at home, take care of your family and have a community garden. Yeah exactly! See that's what I'm thinking. That's more along the lines of what I'm thinking you know how can you how can stop relying on a system and infrastructure that is insufficient, that will not support you? That will not work for you. That will not serve you. That will not help you." When all this lady who's now in power, Juan de Vazquez I think her name is, there were ships that had goods and supplies for us but did not make it to the community

52:19 You know, because of some procedure or bureaucracy order. I don't know! But they didn't make it to us—to the community that needed it. So, we had to figure out how to live amongst ourselves and help ourselves. Help each other and help the other and this one next to me… And that's what I think we need to learn to do because another hurricane happens, catastrophe happens and what are we going to do? Buy a lot of water bottles and create more trash, when the water bottles run out have no water. Eat canned food from where? What if when the canned food is over and now gas is going to go up so food is going to go up here it's just made... The system has made

53:19 Did you write to fail for us and also to cripple independence can't be independent and also suck all from the tea of the big machine, you can do both you know yeah no definitely can't do both now there always is gonna be another corrupt leader there is always gonna be another hurricane as you say and. It's like the system keeps you weak but comfortable to a degree and some of the things you have to do to get away from it are uncomfortable it's not super fun, to go farm everyday. You know unless that your passion but can be easier to go down to seven eleven instead yeah but its all wrapped up in one thing it's a mindset you have to really

54:06 Free your mind before you can really free yourself because it's like you can't be dependent on the system if you're going to rebel against like you said yeah and i'm not saying there are. You have to know i think each individual has no cards they're playing, So let's say I want to step away or I want to find more ways that I as a person, that my body is sovereign. How can I do it in the system that I still have to participate in? You have to know the cards you're playing and that brings a certain level of cunning that you have to bring into play as well!

54:50 cards you're playing. When your kid, if you have a kid and he still has to go school so you have to know how you're going to build and create your life in a way that is sovereign but also aware of the place and the state that things are in where you live Because you still have to participate in a way, you know. If you live far or work far, you still need a car. You still need to fix the car and buy gas. So this is why extremes are insufficient. Extremes are not the answer because you have to know what can you do and what can't you do?

55:40 Also i wanted to ask more practical in a more practical sense when it comes to people and porto rico of course, it's hard to summarize what up people think you know you've been very careful to try that only speak for yourself but not other people but. In terms of porto rico's nebula state to some being a state would be. Further colonization to become part of the united states would be the wrong direction but maybe it's better than the nebula zone it's in and i think completely removing the american president especially suddenly what,

56:20 hurt a lot of people as it would anywhere out when they're dependent on the system but is there a popular opinion amongst the people of what they would prefer where they prefer statehood or they prefer america to just leave me alone i mean, what do you think that the most the sentiment is that's most popular. Oh man, this is an issue. A very contentious issue. It just depends who's in power because there are several political parties – big political parties. There is the one, the red one of a popular party which says let's stay where we are. There's the blue one and they want to be part. They want to be state. And there's the green one that they want independence

57:03 I say it in colors because it's the easiest way. And, I think that the majority of people are divided. I can't say either way. There is a big division between the ones that want to keep the nebulous zone and the ones that wants to be apart, to be a state. The ones who wants independence they've sort of...that movement that movement has suffered a lot of misinformation and a lot of violence. And so it's quite sad, there are a lot people don't

57:41 Many people don't admit that they want that or would consider them. Typically in the polls, I think they've done a couple of surveys. They did a survey recently on this and I think it was divided mostly wanted like for little bit of difference in percentage wanted statehood I believe, I could be wrong. But I believe that we can do these surveys and it can be decided by X amount of people that we want statehood but then you know we also have to hear from the federal government if this will be legitimate if they will look at these surveys, you know? At this poll that was done and the people's opinion so... It's divided! It's really divided and for me personally I don't care

58:25 If we are a state, if we remain, if we become independent. I don't care because I think that what we need to be focusing on is like I mentioned our own selves, our own place, our own land. How do we take care of it? Because what is the point of becoming independent and we can even subsist? We don't even know how to... I've heard people say, oh my gosh can you imagine that my son grows up to have to be a farmer? That's terrible. You know, I've heard people say that there are many stigmas around just Puerto Rico and living in Puerto Rico and being part of the land so I really don't care either way personally. I could care less

59:21 For me, what I care about is that how do we take care of the land that we say we love? How do we not take care in the sense that we are here. We are put here as saviors to take care of the land. I don't mean like that but how do we know the land? How do we interact and respect the land, the soil? All our rivers are polluted! Where are we going to get water from you know It just makes no sense. We're talking about all these political issues when we don't even address the ones here in the land, and that's what I care about mostly—the land! That's what I care about. That's what I want to see—people looking at the land and seeing how they can be better stewards of the land that they live in."

1:00:12 Yes cheers to that i am in complete agreement and im sure if I was in that situation thats how it would feel, I dont ever get what I want politically anyway so I just stop paying attention and do my own thing. And I know ive taken up a lot of your time this is the last kind of weird question I wanted ask you before we just wrap up with your links and stuff but Clearly you're aware of a lot of the dark underbelly of the empire and abuses. People who don't have much of a voice and of course that jeffrey epstein story has been so huge lately i only bring it up because little saint james is like the closest island to puerto rico, add i'm just curious if people in puerto rico or are responding to this story any interesting ways rip that proximity has come up at all as far as you've seen no

1:01:00 No, I don't know if many people are aware. Maybe some a select few small group and if they are they looked at it they went oh my god that's disgusting and then just did they just kept going because like I said all the stories that are filtered to the general population is a fairy tale It's just, they only look at you know oh this great empire. Oh this you know and I don't want to say that all Puerto Ricans are just subservient but because it's not the case but very many of them do not look at things as they are so no I don't mean I don't know that many are aware of that. I've never heard that in conversation. I'm never seen in a newspaper

1:01:53 If it showed up, it was a very small article. Well, I'm not surprised because I often don't know what's going on in the next town or state. So I can only imagine the next island but I figured I had to ask. The world is a big place and these two islands are very close and that other one is on the minds of a lot of people now it's worth asking so anyway this has been really enjoyable. I think everybody listening had a good time before we call it in do Who tell us about your writings or your pdfs that you have anything on missing either just anything you might want them to know about digging more into what you do or if you do any kind of readings are like.

1:02:38 Yeah, well I don't at the moment do readings online. I do them live so here in Puerto Rico. I do have PDFs that you can download of what I've done with the tarot and basically I have The Poetic Arcanum which is just a look at the majors, the trumps and what they who they are, using the cards to answer that question. The cards themselves I also have and so these PDFs you can go on my website www.mrstinather.com or www.wordpress.com So I have those PDFs that you can go ahead and download and print available. I also have An Otherworldly Journey with the Suit of Sorceress' cartomantic explorations, I guess you could say through the lens of poetry. I also have a piece that is part of 21 plus 1. Camelia Elias edited The Fortune Teller's Manifesto

1:03:35 I have that. I also have a story being published by the Fiddler's Green, coming out next year, The Fiddler's Green Parish Magazine which is a zine but yeah you can just basically go to mistandether.wordpress.com and everything is there. Everything that I do and I also have all my social media connections there as well. For now, that's all I do and I wanted to keep it simple I'm not big on promoting myself on social media, so I wanted to keep it simple. I have that blog because I like to write and I love the cards and I like to write about the cards and I also like books and I like to write about books as well and review things and just talk about these things. And so it's all there

1:04:29 And that's basically where you can find me. I think, I'm on Twitter and Instagram, regular places not on Facebook and that's it! That's all I have upcoming for now. I am still writing. I dream of finishing a collection of short stories so that is it. That's all for now. Very cool well i do really like your blog i've enjoyed the parts of animating that terror pips that you put up since we been in communication i have taken a look at your monthly forecast and the couple months that i've been able to digest it real time and i think that's a lot of fun i try to fold out into what i expect the month to look like and of course

1:05:15 and otherworldly journey with the suit of swords is a blast too. So I think people find a lot of stuff there to like you're really good writer, I hope you have a lot of success and get some good feedback from this! Thank you thank you i hope so too thank you well thanks again I know it's a marathon session around here I really appreciate your time and your work keep fighting the good fight and take care thank you all right Greg And that is how we do it, people. Natalia L40 of Mist and Aether I hope you had a good time! I know she was a little nervous as anyone would be with their first interview especially on a show that you've listened to before and i thought she did as great as anyone would Of course, she never claimed to be an expert or authority on Caribbean magic traditions or spirit contact or the politics in Puerto Rico

1:06:09 I still thought she had a lot of insights to share a lot of similar interests to THC listeners and just. Being embedded in that environment is interesting two people who probably haven't been, just the difference in culture that everybody has some type of spirit belief his pretty foreign I've always liked bring in people who haven't done previous interviews it's fun to have conversations that aren't entirely mapped out in my head beforehand, and i've always like the surprise element of thc when a new episode comes out and you don't know the name your life wow what is this.

1:06:54 I knew it was gonna be more conversational because this whole thing stemmed from a single blog post which is already light for the full focus of a two hour interview but it was also a post that was outside the norm for her so, this posts politics of unnamed desire really took on a life of its own and look at now. I also read it at a time when i was thinking about the negative feedback over some guests or topics that don't seem relevant to anyone outside of the US. One guy said THC is the first world problems of conspiracy podcasts and it's hard to know what string of shows brought that comment on but people are often saying to me oh gee another old white guy on the higher side chats interesting

1:07:48 Which I think is just as demeaning as anything if you're really gonna judge people as individuals. It's like, so as an individual this old white guy can't have something valuable to say because there are a lot of other old white guys saying things? It's just never good to judge people by that shit But regardless, I do get it and I've tried to diversify the lineup a little bit lately We've added a few more ladies and tried to talk about some stuff that might be more universally relevant. Or like today, tried to hone in on a pocket of the world that isn't thought about enough but is just as affected by the Empire maybe more so than most pockets of the world And then of course Natalia is also knowledgeable about Cartomancy, Tarot and Spiritualism So we went for it! ...and I liked it

1:08:44 This was my first show that I recorded since being back from Austin and Gordon's As Above event, so a lot of this stuff was fresh on my mind and appropriate because she follows their work too. See if you liked her vibe! mistandether.wordpress.com is where you can read more links in the show notes as always But just like Whitney Webb, it's important to acknowledge that the system does damage to a lot of people and places that are outside of it. I think most Americans would agree that we get some benefits. You gotta be pretty dense not admit that we get some benefits and outside our system is just all costs

1:09:29 I don't know, we want to try to make sure that we're covering as much diverse ground as we can and make sure that we're not just turning over the same five rocks week after week. Also i know we have listeners in Puerto Rico and im sure they'll be happy to see this pop up I really respect Natalia's efforts to not speak for other people, especially people who oftentimes don't get to speak for themselves. It is a tough thing to navigate because we do it without even noticing sometimes. We generalize and oversimplify and when the sentence starts with, it seems like all the people want no matter what you're talking about, you are probably wrong." That was just another element of the conversation that came into play today

1:10:16 But as always, THC interviews are two hours instead of just the one if you are a Plus member. And in today's we talked about how to find your agency within the landscape you're in Natalia is monthly tarot forecasts her favorite decks and why they seem more potent St Cyprian tips for ancestral contact understanding the life death cycle with Natalia has added spiritual context What trends she sees coming in magic and a little bit about how racism or colonization. My color are outlook on indigenous magical traditions that pesky colonization of the mind let me tell you, is actually an author from kenya he's in his eighties but he wrote a book called decolonizing the mind the politics of language in african literature and i try to track him down for interview and i haven't heard back yet but

1:11:18 That is a great intriguing book title and higher side news the developers are definitely done with the work i've got a few more things to do on my side emails related to the changes are still coming in but i've got about ninety five percent of people answered and their problem solved. Now it's sort of crunch time for the end of the month here so, I should have this last show out on Monday. Actually, i have to but it's a good one with a returning guest to talk about the corrupt banking system and some more advantageous banking structures that have been tried and make life a lot better for the people in them than the fractional reserve debt-based system of rule we have now so stay tuned same bat time same bat channel and i'll see you then

1:12:08 I've done my part. Your move, agents of the Empire, silencers of voices and colonizers... ...of the Caribbean. You're fuckin'... Sweet dreams to the elite We're calling out on TAC Uncovering secrets and conspiracies Everybody's looking for something Some of them want to use you Some of them want to get used by you. Some of them want to abuse you, some of them want to be abused.

1:13:02 Sweet themes on DHC Who the hell could disagree? We know the rabbit hole goes deep Everybody's digging for something Some of them want to use you Some of them want to get used by you. Some of them want to abuse you. Some of them want to be abused.