Jeran Campanella | Flat Earth Defection, The Final Experiment, & The Critics

00:00 All right, real quick before you skip ahead. I just want to remind you that this here is a free first hour version of the show and every interview has a second hour for plus members in what is now one of the longest running and most successful sponsor-free podcasts on this island earth I think I can say that. A plus membership is 8 bucks a month and you get the 5 ongoing 2 hour interviews each month as well as access to the full archive going back to the beginning, no seasons or tiers or gimmicks like that Just hundreds of interviews that have always been free of ad breaks, well edited information rich in-depth explorations of all sorts of things with tons of amazing guests. Lots of timeless classics that get far beyond the stories of the week and politics of the day You know if PLUS is for you or not but I do want to add just a few more bits of information so you have the best experience if you come over

00:54 The easy way to get started is you use the links right at the top of the show notes or at the higher side chats.com and then when you sign up, look out for a welcome email that includes a custom RSS link that you can easily add any podcast player with a simple copy and paste no need to mess with the username and password because God knows we've all had more than enough of that But you can still use the credentials to log into the website where you can rate shows, engage in comments or forums with other Plus members and check out the archive based on categories and topics that make it much easier to find stuff you'll like best. A second sign-up option is to get Plus through Patreon. You get all of the same shows but no access to the site and the tradeoff is that Patreon is a Spotify partner

01:40 So that's our little workaround to give you plus on Spotify, if that's your thing. But that's it? It's a pretty simple machine. So come on in there so much more to hear sign up is quick and easy and you're keeping a truly independent platform intact for me to still be doing this the same way after so many years clearly that means the members are pretty happy and you could be too think about it tell a friend and thanks for listening puppet masters almost surely have a fire early maybe see

02:19 on the realm of man. Close chest, it really do! Where would we be into us? Just don't know! Would we be side-chat show? Glen Carlwood and company Serenity now, Hiresight Shatters. From the Sunshine State I'm Greg Carlwood and while question everything has always been a common phrase in conspiracy culture few have had the guts and rebel spirit to truly mean it like the Flat Earthers A branch on the conspiracy tree most of us didn't even know was there 10 years ago but has rocketed its way deep inside the canon for a proud card-carrying conspiracy enthusiast in the modern age

03:15 For many, a spiritual and practical paradigm shift so intense it can't just be incorporated into their wider worldview. It becomes an identity—a sole conspiracy of interest and for many on both sides of the flat earth debate, a litmus test Because it's either the most epic deception ever instituted, launched in an effort to inject the desired spiritual atrophy godlessness and feelings of meaninglessness into our modern culture. A roundabout way of seeding mass denial of a well-established understanding of intelligent design through a process that required the telling of a new science driven story for reality one of random directionless chaos for no reason in a universe so vast your insignificance and powerlessnes can only be self evident

03:58 Or, as the unconvinced might say, the Flat Earth Movement has been a sophisticated intelligence-derived psyoptofissure—a growing digitally networked community of likeminded rebellious and distrusting dissidents that were growing increasingly frustrated with the economic enslavement, increased toxicity everywhere and systemwide exploitation of humanity that was getting genuinely close to demanding better. And not only needed to be disrupted but also needed to look more ridiculous to those who might have joined their ranks And here we are, where many on both sides of the earth-shaped debate have become increasingly skeptical of the other side their motivations and priorities. Rather than organizing around or focusing on any significant person policy company or poison actually affecting our ability to live free happy healthy and fulfilling lives

04:48 So what brought on this movement? Either the puppet master's primary goal is to erase knowledge of a creator and invert his natural order fueled by deep and ancient disdain for it all, or they don't want their biggest critics to stay unified and focused on practical changes in criminal accountability that might actually be achievable. It really is a question so epic with implications so deep that you can walk it through all levels of the conspiratorial flowchart if this then that, where the truly earth-shape agnostic among us can actually see both sides. Well folks 8 years ago prominent voice in the flat earth movement Jaron Campanella joined THC to make his case in what many still say was an interview that caused them to consider a paradigm they never thought possible

05:31 And he returns now as one of the only people I know to come back to the conventional globe model. A conclusion he's come too after taking a trip to Union Glacier Camp in Antarctica and witnessing the 24-hour visible sun himself, an event incompatible with the flat earth model as he sees it Well, we should be allowed to change our minds when presented with new information and new observations. But what he's experienced is closed-minded cult like behavior doubt betrayal anger rage and the loss of decades long friendships Call me crazy but I think both sides need to stitch this up if we're ever gonna get anywhere

06:09 But here he is to talk about the trip, the implications and the aftermath. The flat earth defector Antarctic adventurer and always honest sometimes right Jaron Campanella welcome back my good man Hey it's awesome to be here you're one of my favorites beyond any time. So thank you for that. Wow, too kind and thank you for being here I never thought i'd see this day This is quite a saga and I want to make sure we give people all the important context for it I'm not sure how closely the people listening here have followed these events But they know the person you were You were a big flat earth guest for me making a really well-rounded case For the flat earth

06:49 You've done that for hundreds and hundreds of hours year after year until december of last year twenty twenty four someone named pastor will duffy who has a background in finance of some kind i understand it is oddly obsessed with what flat earthers believe created the final experiment and gave an opportunity to a group before flatters and for globe earthers to go down. to the union glacier basin and article eighty degrees south, do experience the twenty four hour always visible sun which is not compatible with the most popular models of flutter. Can you came home convinced to change your mind and come back to the globe talk about this trip coming together and who really organized it what's the money behind it was the story there

07:35 I mean the money is will dofus he's a pastor who i guess had a friend who was on facebook posting about flat earth and he thought she was joking. And so we kind of jumped in and it was kinda clapping back any found out that she's not joking so he, tried to debate her or tried to get her convinced that the earth was a sphere. And he realized that he didn't even know enough about the model, To even be able to debate her so he started to look into it and kind of came to the conclusion that it was a globe and then he was just getting tired of watching flatters versus Globe Earth because he says that we didn't get together kinda like you said in your intro That there was no coming together There was no experiments at both sides agreed on So he started to look for a way or some sort of thing that could convince both sides one way or the other

08:16 So then he heard Dave Weiss and a couple other people saying that there's no 24 hour sun in the South. And he saw that the globe earthers say that there was, so that was basically it. He then did a poll on YouTube. He was going to pay for one flat earther, one globe earther. So the poll came out and people voted on Dave Weiss to be the representative from Flat Earth but he declined it. And then I got second place. When I was asked, the way that I looked at is that the South had to be alive If the earth is flat, the south can't be the inverse or the opposite of the north. That's what a sphere does." So for 10 years I've been teaching flat earth under the assumption or the prerequisite that the south was alive. So I knew okay let me go down there let me take a look at the sky down there let me look at the south celestial pole see if it actually moves just all kinds of questions i had

09:05 So I went and then saw that the South is exactly as described. So, I had pretty much no choice but to come back and say that we were wrong because if the South isn't you know, an expanding plane like you expect it to be... If there is a south pole or if there's a south celestial pole, the sun setting right-to left for people in the South rather than we see it in the North go left-to right, pretty cut and dry. The Earth is a sphere. I no longer have any doubt so Hey, the good thing is I was a truth seeker. I was looking for the truth that took me 10 fricking years but i did get to the bottom of it at this point you think my audience would be happy about that right? That is what I thought the goal was here too...is to find the ultimate truth and a lot of people their flat earth journey is hey! I thought this was ridiculous then I heard some of the arguments then I was just waiting for it to be disproven and it wasn't disproven so I became a flat earther well

09:59 You took the journey down there and apparently disproved it now if i was someone attached to the flat earth idea. I might say well just because you go to one base in antarctica in the frozen tundra out there, How can you say the whole globe's south is basically what they say it is? You're just at this one base. You have a 360 degree view of, what, a square mile or a couple square miles? Tell us more about how you were convinced. It's not just a light in the sky right there are other elements to it.

10:37 plane ride from Sydney to Santiago, something people say can't work the way flight routes work. Talk to us about some of these other bits of information? Sure so yeah I mean obviously like i said the south needs to be alive so we went down there to check it out and you're right there is a lot of people who say that oh hey you just saw one item you were just in one place but i don't think what people understand is that the globe has been mapped the earth has been mapped on a globe and And so if you're going to take somebody to 80 degrees south, 81 degrees west. Well then the sun has to do what it's required to do there. So it doesn't have an option to go somewhere else that we just went to this one place. It's that I had to do what the sun is called for to do on the globe model and it did exactly that. So was at its high of 35 degrees in the north and it's low 15 degrees in the south and just circled us for four days. Doesn't set. And so that plus many other things contributed.

11:32 I think I'd heard this before, but never really saw it. If you think of the Flat Earth map that you've seen before — the layout, the AE map — if you kind of picture yourself standing at the bottom of South America looking west... Well, the sun when it sets needs to go off to the right because that's the direction where Australia is over there on the Flat Earth Map. But the sun sets to the left And it sets hard right, left. And then it barely goes under the horizon for about three or four hours. It sets like 1130 at night pops up again at four or five in the morning and you're like wait a second In that dip, it actually brought light to both Australia and Africa So then you start thinking this just doesn't work There's no way that you can get that to work on a flat earth You'll never get it to work And so originally my thought was okay well somebody will come up with another map And then the more I thought about that I realized there is no other map

12:22 That's the only flattered map there can ever be because there are things that we know are physical requirements, right? The Tropic of Capricorn has to be there. That's the southernmost spot that the sun goes. Tropica Cancer has to be there. That's the northernmost equator on the equinox And the North Pole kind of required. So once you lay that out and then you lay the continents in the order they have to be, it is an AE map so it'll always be an AE map but will never not be. And there'll never be another flat map. The fact that the sun sets right-to-left for everybody in the South and the Sun sets left-to-right for everybody in the North is pretty blatant right there because Flat Earth Map has one Sun doing a clockwise motion above the Flat Earth. What would cause it to set in a different direction? For people on the South versus the North

13:05 And then also there's other things that go with that, like on the globe. On the equinox somebody standing on the equator would actually see the sun rise straight up and down. It's like a straight line east to west and that also doesn't work on flat earth because the flat earth has a circling sun so what would cause it all of sudden gets to the equator? Well now I'm not going to circle, I'm gonna go straight but then it circles on both sides either side. So there is the south celestial pole which Since it was 24 hours of daylight in Antarctica, didn't see the South celestial pole there but we saw it in Punta Arenas which is the southernmost city in South America. So once you see that and its stationary in the sky, it operates just like North Pole or the North Star only the stars go to opposite direction which would be clockwise there and so then you know what's below that right? You can kind of infer from now... We were 600 miles from the pole but

13:54 can't have a South Celestial Pole and there be no South Pole. And if you have a South Pole, that also debunks the Flat Earth map because the Flat Earth doesn't have a South Pole. So if you want to really confuse the Flat Earth or ask them where the South Pole is they will have to say everywhere because that's the only answer. So it sounds like you maybe kind of had some doubts before you actually took the journey? Is that safe to say? Or were you really 100% on board until this happened? No I mean I thought that the trip would be canceled A couple of these things have come up in the past and they were always fake or they ended up being canceled. So I kind of thought that, but I did know that ultimately if it was real, you know, the trip would probably happen and then we'd have to go down and see. And then we also thought maybe we'd go down there and there'll be clouds in the sky so we kinda be clouded over for four days but

14:42 But we got there and it was beautiful. The first day, the plane lands right there on the ice. Unbelievable! We went to Union Glacier they took us to a secondary camp which is kind of away from the main camp just about three miles not very far but from there we were able to set up and do our 24-hour live streams and all that and our 24 hour videos And so yeah it was great I mean awesome trip $35,000 for free can't beat that. I'm telling that pastor now I don't believe in Oceanside property in Hawaii either maybe he can send me there I like that so i do have questions about will duffy i am not even vested in the argument but i do find it strange that a person. What cares so much as to spend,

15:24 Thirty five grand maybe just free i don't know the total cost something in six figures possibly easily. Yeah okay a hundred grand of their own money to convince strangers they don't know about the shape of the earth if you're confident that the flat earth is dumb and those people are done, move on. Like you have to think that he knows that it's not going to convince everybody, that people are pretty much dug in to their perspective and something they see through a screen your trip is not going to convince them as he focused on just convincing the actual four who are literally there? I just think it's a little weird and of course flat earthers have gone after his background since this has happened and it

16:10 It is a little strange he's been sued in the six figure numbers for fiduciary duties when he was in finance and now as a pastor and I think huh if i was. trying to dissuade flatter there's a way from their position up pastors are perfect person to do it because. There is a religious city to the whole argument so i passed her subconsciously says hey you don't have to give up your religion, you just have to give up your physical model so i thought you know conspiracy guy i have to wonder what the hell going on what are your thoughts on will dot v and why he cares so much

16:46 Yeah, I mean his story checks out as far as why he cares so much. As far with me and he did seem to...I guess? I wouldn't know what having money is like. I think that a lot of people talk about him like as if he's one of us, that is basically struggling to get by. I don't think that that's the case so if somebody had let's just say and I have no idea if this is a number even close to what but if you had $10 million maybe feel little differently if you decided today I want to go spend 100 thousand dollars on this trip and maybe my name will be put in the paper maybe all gets some sort of accolades for it if I help change the minds of a bunch of flat earthers and it really has been

17:25 kicking the pants to flat earth because so many people have left, right? So I was the first one who came back and just said hey the earth doesn't look like it's flat. In fact it's shown to be a sphere and then shortly after that Paul on the plane is somebody who came out and admitted that he also agrees that the Earth is not flat. Robbie Davidson who's the one who put on the first three or four conferences. I know he invited me to Raleigh, North Carolina. He was in charge of that. He also invited me to Edmonton, Alberta Canada and also he was in charge of the one in Denver so he did those three plus more I think and he also came out made a post on Facebook saying here's my 10 points this is why now believe Theorists Asphere So that ended up being kind of flat earthers looked at that as suspicious because those three are friends and those three were involved

18:16 the same YouTube channel where they were selling some cryptocurrency called Axion. So people have pointed fingers at that and said, oh this is to get them out of financial issue or trouble. And then there's been a lot of other people that have backed up but not really any major names besides those ones So yeah, it is definitely weird everything that's gone on but Duffy to me was always honest. He was good to me again the guy is buying a $35000 trip so that's a good way to get friendly with me if you want to buy me a trip but he seems like he's on the up and up and he did kind of turn sinister over time period And I kind of gave him a hard time for that. I'm like, man this guy was really nice guy at the beginning and then towards the end he started to really kind of be like this character almost like villain to Flat Earthers but i have to give him a break because then when I came back and became a Globe Earther

19:04 It took me like a month and I was just yelling at people. So it's like he lasted six months, at least before he became the villain. And I didn't get that far. I was just already pissed off. So yeah, it's been kind of crazy because they are displaying a lot of cult-like activity. They've had to adopt some new sayings that they came up with one of them is you can't tell the shape of the ground by the lights in the sky which is just insanity to even say because what they're doing is they're outlawing certain line of evidence and then it's not allowed anywhere else we don't have lines of evidence that people can just come around and say, oh we don't look at that. Well no we can look at the blood splatter on the wall to get the murder weapon and we can look at a woman's urine to see if she's pregnant so you can look other places or things for evidence of another thing So you know We have a measuring stick in the sky And that is the Sun and it's a measuring stick because a measuring thing is just rigid It has to be The same right? So a ruler You can take it around measure everything and get your inches or whatever but with the Sun

20:00 It doesn't change, it's 24 hours. Goes around the earth in 24 hours. It's got its known path. It's been known for thousands of years so there is no question there. So you can take a map if I handed you a map, you should be able to look at it and make sure it jives with the sun. If it doesn't then you don't live where the map says. There is no jiving the earth with the flat Earth Map anymore that doesn't account for anything. It's pretty simple to me and that's what's so sad about it I feel like now you're like, man, I wish we could just move forward. There's so many conspiracies to look into there are so many things that we should be putting our focus on and instead there is this fight going on truth or fight? And that's why do ultimately think it is some sort of a psyop where it actually steals from the truth movement because anybody who's educated

20:44 or works in those departments, or works in those sectors. If they hear somebody is a flat earther they're just going to dismiss them outright and probably rightfully so and that hurts the truth movement because you might have other people looking into things 9-11 whatever you want to say COVID and if you then say oh I'm also flat earther then it kind of discounts all your other work So It's unfortunate but I get it because A lot of truthers have gotten to the point where they just say well are lying to us about everything? So this is just another thing to add in there Although I feel better knowing that at least we were lied to about everything. Yes, and that was my problem even seven years ago with the budding flat earth movement is it just seemed like two flat earthers if i wasn't on board with that then nothing else mattered I might as well be a normie shopping at Walmart watching American Idol at night and there's no nuance at all And that was troubling to me sure

21:40 And i agree cult like behavior it does take away from all the other real world conspiracies i've had a lot of guests recently that focus on geopolitics they think we're year away from a serious world war three. Any at there's just shows like glow busters going after the same thing they talked about for five years, it's like where is the nuance where is saving some time for the vast number of false flags assassinations coups Globalism, Zionism all these things that should be talked about. It's a curious thing I understand the obsession because it is paradigm shifting more so than any other thing and a lot of us got into conspiracy because we got a little charge from having our mind blown by something and then that probably goes away until flat earth and then your mind is truly blown to that next level and you don't want to go back but

22:33 I do want to get a little bit into the aftermath of all this. I don't know David Weiss, in fact the last message you and i had on Facebook where we communicate was a couple years ago you asked if I would bring on Flat Earth Dave and you together and I had said that I was happy that I did a couple of flat earth shows but I didn't want it to take over the show so I didn't want to do that And i always had fond memories of our interview and find feelings of you i probably wouldn't even paid that much attention to the antarctic trip if u weren't the guy there that made me more vested in it. And now i wanna know about what happened since because,

23:16 It seems like after a decade, you and Dave are no longer friends. And even your own community and other flat earth researchers have turned really nasty towards you all because you changed your mind on one issue that in the grand scheme is it that serious? Is it that big of a deal? Obviously these people have really gone to levels I never even expected. And that's saying something tell us about what has happened So let's just start at the beginning. When I got back, the number one thing was Dave Weiss has been on my shows he's been a friend for 10 years and so when i took the decision to make the trip he got kind of upset and was kind of telling me it's a scam, it's a setup you're going to go down there they're gonna kill you they're gonna do all these things... And he started calling the pastor a satanist! And I was like what are you calling him that for? Where did he oh he's against the truth he's against the flatterer so he's a satanist like no that doesn't make you a satanist

24:10 He's not a real pastor. He doesn't have a real church." I'm like, no people have gone there you can go to his church he is real so we go down there and then when we come back...I've not talked to Dave since then he has not called me he has not reached out and when i got back i was hearing him at first he was trying to do some debunking because there were a lot of people who claimed that there were green screens or claimed it was fake and so Dave was kind of helping quiet some of those nonsense ideas. But then it got to the point where I think he realized what it ultimately meant, so he switched his tune to They Faked The Sun and I Just Happened To Buy It

24:47 Austin Witsett and I are too dumb to realize what the sun looks like, I guess. And so he started saying it was a plasma laser beam sun but you know we did things when we were down there. A guy took a magnifying glass and burned paper when the Sun was in the north and when it was in the south kind of make sure people knew it was the Sun We took sunspot observations of the Sun at all times who have a 24 hour time lapse of that? And it matches perfectly with the sun spots taken from the United States except for these are flipped upside down So Lots of things like that. But yeah, the community really went sour because they all and I get this right? So I think that i've come across as a pretty honest guy the whole time and I think people look at me that way so when I come back and make a flip after 10 years this just threw them into a tailspin And they basically came to the conclusion that I must have joined the cabal. It must have been paid off. I must be purchased or something like that. So that's kind of their line of thinking and then from there it just became

25:41 some nonsense. I mean, you had Mark Sargent and I'm sure you know who he is the guy who made Flat Earth Clues. He started making accusations that these three that left shortly after me that they're involved in some sort of SEC violation and that they're getting paid off. And then he said Patricia Steer got given a car in exchange for her lying about The Flat Earth. They've just been making these blanket accusations. And you really see it for what it is when you're on the outside looking in your like this is cope if there ever was something again like you were saying One thing i look at is what we accomplished in ten years you have to bring something to the world or else your just spinning your wheels running on a hamster wheel and after ten years get off like tired and look around like should go anywhere still standing here so, in order for the flatters ever become the de facto belief it has to better explain the world than the globe.

26:32 And now with the South being exactly what the globe calls for, there is no way that it will ever happen. So that's ultimately what it comes down to and I now understand a little things a little bit better. You know water finding its level why we don't see curve by we don't measure curve? I mean those things are just they kind of took that block in my head getting kicked out which happened when I made the observations and then everything else just kinda started to fit. I understood the sun all of a sudden and I get it now. I get you know like thousand mile per hour spin you ever see people talk about that all But it goes around once a day, and that's not spinning fast at all. That's very slow. In fact if you were to watch the Earth spin from space you wouldn't even be able to tell what was spinning. You'd have to really watch it because it has to only go around once in a day so that's pretty slow I mean think of a merry-go-round or something that goes around once a day...that's barely moving! So we all joke about how it's 1,000 miles per hour and that seems outrageous

27:28 But it's not really that outrageous when you understand that. And I'm still in the camp where, you know water does find its level and i think people get confused on that but no matter where you're at on the earth is level It is flat. It's just if you zoom out it is a sphere and people have a hard time I think because we think of balls We think about bowling ball basketball beachball volleyball So those items are smaller than us and they look like they've got a certain amount of curve. We can't even fathom what the size of the earth would be, but it's so big that we don't actually experience curve which I think settles a lot of the questions that I had about the globe earth like how do they build bridges? How do they build canals? Well, the answer is you just built them. I don't even think you need to take into account the curvature of the Earth ever one number I keep throwing out there for 660 feet which is two football fields right end-to-end with end zones There's only 1 eighth inch of curve

28:17 And if you got past those two football fields and went to the next two, there'd be one eighth inch of curve. And if you went to the next two one eighth inch of curve it's always the same. So you would basically come back to where you started after building a couple hundred thousand football fields but that's why we don't experience curve and that's why water finds its level. That's why we use a level in a building so I mean imagine if we had a 660-foot long level so two football fields which doesn't exist Let's say we did. Even that, when put on the ground on a sphere Earth would show level because there is only an eighth inch of curve. We don't even have the tools to detect that." So I started to understand some of these things and realized that the flat Earth is just really settling on your senses. We do not feel like we are spinning? Okay, we're not spinning. We don't feel like we are flying through space? Okay, we're not flying through space. A lot of those things are very attractive but they run out when it comes to matching reality. You can explain the sun at all from a flat earth

29:11 any sunrise, sunset times not any eclipses all the things that come with the globe that explains. So I just got to the point where so the flatters will never go up against the globe it'll never defeat it anyway yeah i can be difficult because of the scale and the orientation to work all these things out my reservations when people have said to me what's holding you back from committing it really always has been, the sun and moon is just like its not really so much about the arguments on the ground in what it looks like it really is like well then. What is that in the sky? Because in the conventional model, there isn't explanation. I don't know if it's right but it is a explanation that checks out to me maybe because I've been indoctrinated since preschool but regardless It makes sense so I'm actually kind of weird now look at that and I kinda think to myself well maybe it's a good thing crazy as that sounds just because it's still counterintuitive But its already been figured out Its already been mapped

30:10 solidified. It's just a bunch of people that don't quite get it, that started to have another idea and the AEMAP does present a nice option you look at it, it does explain some flight routes a lot better right? So a lot of people who have flown say New York to London or something will always ask well why did I go up by Greenland what was they doing up there which is the great circle route But if you put that on a map of flat earth map, it's a straight line. So it's very easy to convince people now you're just flying this straight line. You're not flying this crazy arc over the globe right and the UN flag I've always liked the UN flag argument because where I try to find common ground with the flatters is to say

30:46 You know, look I appreciate the punk rock spirit of every couple of years. I find a new thing you've lied to me about well fuck you i'm going all the way to the top and everything below there's no way you can lie to me now because I believe the exact inverse of everything you've ever taught me because fuck you! I actually appreciate that spirit I can find common ground...I try too you know it takes two to tango they can't find common ground with me but I definitely appreciate that attitude Yeah, those are my people too. Right? I mean that's...I went and spoke down in LA at a skeptic camp they wanted me to come speak about the trip and i went down there and met this girl after who was asking if I want to smoke and this and that again hang out after then she started going into this thing about how she was almost in a cult because you almost believe that there is a trans agenda and she almost believed Trump was a good guy and I was like oh man! And then she started calling me that night and didn't answer

31:38 Because it's like, these are not my people. Yeah. So the things I've seen written and said about you online are brutal completely uncalled for for something so arbitrary as a personal feeling about the earth shape even losing friends over that is sad to me but i think the reason so many people are angry and having such an emotional reaction is because you spent 10 years making every pro flat earth argument there is looking at experiments Elaborating in depth on why the flat earth model makes more sense. And then one event, one new data point essentially you know, you just kind of laid out how it's more than one thing has you doing a complete 180? I think people would be far less reactionary if you said something like, Hmm, the 24 hour sun was not what I expected to see. I need to revisit this and see how it all fits together because aren't there still a ton of pro flat earth arguments that would be irrelevant to the son not to quote Eric Dubay

32:34 But yeah, I mean there's a lot of things like pilots never angling their planes downward water finding its level. As you mentioned time-lapse photography of the stars has always been interesting to me and curious seeing things across distances that should be under curvature never seen curvature without a curved lens and my favorite zooming in on ships that have crossed the horizon point and seeing that they are still visible. That's a head scratcher It's okay to have an event and new data shake your confidence but i think it's the full 180, the either or flip that is making people so angry with you. Well that's multiple things right? So one of the things was

33:18 my plan was when I was coming back, okay i'm going to go back to the drawing board we're gonna have to relook at things again and what happened instead is everybody was calling it fake half the group was calling a fake. The other half of the group was saying doesn't matter and it became very clear to me that we no longer have the people in the movement that actually want to do the work they now think that they're so sure that you're flat that they can just make up excuses for anything that comes and goes against your worldview well I saw that as a problem but that's occult if everything comes from outside your worldview is just declined and said it doesn't exist or is fake or doesn't matter, well then you'll always be stuck in that belief regardless of your actual merit. So one of the things was when I got back I started hearing that every flat map predicted a 24-hour sun and this guy Steven Alonzo has his own school Flatter School or something started saying that and then I started hearing other people say it and they said it's so matter-of-fact and like that's just BS

34:10 There is no flat map that calls for 24 hour sun. So where are you getting every flat map calls for it? Well, these are just lies that are told by people who at this point I think know what's going on. I think that they know that they've got this audience kind of where they want them so now the grifters are pouring in and now some of these guys don't seem to be honest with me." And then you had like Eric Debay, right? Eric Debay who has a book 200 Proofs and in that book it says that the 24-hour sun doesn't happen in the south. So when we said we were going down there, the very first thing he did was put out a video saying it doesn't matter if the sun does circle down there because Lady Blount in 1905 or something said that they acknowledged this is a TEDx acknowledges there's a 24 hour Sun but then she says in the next sentence but we have no way of explaining it

34:53 So the same thing is true 120 years later, that there's no way of explaining it. And so it doesn't matter if she said it and then if she said it and he knew that why did you put in his 200 proofs? Because now it's not a proof anymore since it's obviously the opposite. So then when we got back, he made a video saying that we faked inside of Amazon studio. So these guys are just at this point they'll make up anything. And then the community itself because they're so gung ho I don't know if you've seen these guys on Facebook instead of their just their rude They're like children I keep describing it as a, my metaphor for it is like you're at a bowling alley and there's the professional bowling team bowling on two lanes. And they're throwing 230s and 240s and just nailing it strike spares. Next to them they put a bunch of snot-nosed kids that have bumpers up and they're yelling and screaming and telling the bowlers, the professional bowlers, you guys suck!

35:40 And they're like, what you're bowling sevens and fours. And they're like yeah but you know you guys suck and we do it better than you? And they're like no you certainly don't! Then there's even some guys on their team that are like we don't have lanes, we don't have balls, we just know were better than you because that is what Flat Earth is now at this point. They actually say we don't have a map or model so we make no claims but then you don't do science go home because you can't come into a scientific conversation with no claim, no model. That's the point of science is to make claims and then back them up with evidence in whichever one best fits the observations is probably the truth, so flat earth has gone away from that. Well I agree with you on one hand. On another hand it's been a common thing for me to have to point out that just because I can show a lie doesn't mean I have to explain the truth like 9-11 is a great example how did those buildings fall

36:29 Just because I can't explain it to a T doesn't mean that what you were told was the truth. It doesn't mean it was planes, was it nanothermite? Was it Judy Woods directed energy weapons? I don't know but I know you were lied to on that day That's what's important. So, you know, just because the flat earthers don't have a model doesn't mean Eric Dubay can't write a book 200 proofs and point out, Hey all these things you take for granted about your conventional model. These things don't add up now. What is the real model? That's a whole nother question that's not for me to say, but let me just throw this out so it sounds like people's behavior is shitty. I, the most predictable thing ever is that you are going to get shit for flipping on this

37:12 What people's shitty behavior is totally separate from the objective facts and the objective argument and trying to figure out what this thing is in it sounds like, understand being hurt or being pissed off from these reactions but is there any party that thinks maybe that you've gone. totally the other direction out of spite, out of just anger at the reaction you got. That you're now like, You know what? Fuck you guys! You know, you're now in fuck-you mode. You're just kind of like, you know what look it...You changed your logo with a big X over it that's kind of a bit trolly as you know Like you could have made it something else Yeah I definitely went there and I think that The plan was to kinda come back and

37:59 figure it out together to kind of go back to the drawing board. And then, you know, I kinda felt like it was a sphere coming back on the trip from the trip but yeah, to get back and see the people that I was coming back too who accused us of faking everything if it's all fake footage we're...I mean and that's just garbage because what that showed me is there'll never be an observation that somebody makes again that will cause Flatter to realize oh! We have to fix something now not if you just dismiss everything outright and they really Just say no move on so why you don't have to provide if you point out a lie but if u point out a lie and it's shown not be alive then got a problem right so. You can just claim somethings ally for instance of working about the sun the globe earth describes the sun perfectly every sunrise every sunset every angle, the flattered doesn't do any that you cant predict one so

38:50 It's not okay to just say, well we still think the earth is flat. Okay well you have to explain something about the sun? How about the moon? Nope can't explain any of those so it's a flip because to me I thought everybody knew this but i guess i'm finding out they didn't The south has to be alive The flat earth cannot be true if the south is the inversion or the opposite of the north. It just can't, that's not part of it and then when you start looking at other things like... You know, you could look at the distance between longitude lines so say one degree of longitude if you go down to just Australia and measure one degree of longitude Southern Australia would be about 45 miles If you draw out the flat earth map and show that same spot then take the circumference of that circle divided by 360 comes out to like 160

39:34 So we just know that the areas that say 45 miles in Australia are not 160. That's four times as far, that would be impossible for them to hide somebody would get in their car to drive an hour to meet their friend and get there four hours later somebody may be a little bit questioning that so We've got a clear cut shape of the earth And while I agree with a lot of the flatters like you said so you're talking about the evidence that we found Well if you go to a murder scene and there's three pairs of shoes they're all evidence right It's all evidence and two of them are going to lead you in the wrong direction. And one of them is going to lead you to the true killer. So, the same thing is true about what we observe on earth that it's all evidence so when you say we see too far that's evidence right? But the globe Earth has an answer for it which makes sense do we see too far because geometrically there's no atmosphere so you're just drawing lines on a graph paper or whatever on a plot and saying hey we can only see this far but you add an atmosphere and anybody knows that that's like a magnifying glass does actually magnify the distant items that we seek We can't really tell we're always in

40:30 But when you are looking geometrically, we can see further than the geometry of the Earth calls for. And then there's stuff like refraction that I used to have questions about but we've actually seen it now into play where you can hide a little thumbtack behind a globe and by putting like a piece of lens in front or anything will bring it right back up from behind the globe so that explains why we see too far just the items that are behind the curve are bent up slightly that light is curving to your eye which kind of allows you to see further than you should water finds its level we talked about that right? That But it is always level, no matter where you're at the water is level. So all the flat earth arguments are now gone. They don't have one that is even worth talking about which is sad but it's the truth and so I want people to get that across and I just realized

41:14 that they want. I mean, yesterday went so far as that now it's gone to revenge porn as of yesterday. So these guys will stop at nothing. They're going to continue to attack me simply because they can't have me being a former flat earther speaking out against the flat earth. But i've said from day one that I would always be honest like you said, you know always honest sometimes right For 10 years, I was wrong about that particular subject. But it's still we were bringing up some good points these things were true. There's nothing that's a lie. We see too far okay great like you said pulling boats back that kind of exposes one part of it right? That kinda tells us the idea they knew this in year negative 200 BC

41:52 Because we know that can't be true because they said one of the ways they knew that is boats disappearing bottom up. But now when we have cameras, we can actually zoom in bring some of those back so that means that they wouldn't have been able to do that back then. So they would've just seen boats disappear with their eyes and said, it's curved. The boat went over it. Now we look at them like no, it's actually not going away for a lot further than that but if you keep your eyes on a boat, you can't pull it back forever. It'll eventually go over the horizon and it will disappear bottom-up. So it's one of those things where I don't think it's out of spite that has made me almost like move faster. In that direction obviously just okay that's it you know there is no and again took me getting to the point where he said the earth will never be flat i mean a hundred percent sure it'll never be flat because, there's no way you can make up for the deficiencies like this apple when we are down south i mean if everybody looking at the south pole meaning

42:44 Let's say South Africa, South America, Australia. They're all facing each other if they walk towards the south pole of the lowest part of the sun they'll all meet in the same spot that's the same as the north so that can't happen on a flat earth and a flat earth you're actually walking away from each other in opposite directions and people try to explain that but what it creates is a paradox If the earth is mapped everywhere and you can call any friend you have, whether it's in China, whether it's in Bangladesh, whether it's an Africa. And everybody will admit that the sunrise sunset times are correct in their location and that it matches the globe earth. So it'd have to be at somewhere down South of 80 that it falls apart and it's no longer a sphere? Well, that doesn't even make sense then it becomes a paradox. I'm all for changing my mind too. That's the thing. I tell flatters all time but I wanted the Earth to be flat right didn't want it to be global. I wanted it to be flat

43:30 So if you can find the evidence that shows that, I'll be back there in a heartbeat. But I also realize and it's a lot of the characters that are out there now they've gone as far as to now steal from the globe let me give you an example so There's this guy Walter Bisland who made this model of the earth And then he made it flat and did it to show the impossibilities Of what we see in reality? So if you put like a little dome above a person say over in South America Well when the Sun gets around Australia It's also in their dome So, the reason that Flat Earth has adopted that is because basically now you have to have two suns. You have two suns one's a what they call parent son and the other one's the son that we actually well they're both seen so that's the thing. If you're a flat earther now you have to believe in two sons and it just so happens that one of them is exactly where The Globe predicts. That's kind of embarrassing I mean so you just added a second son to make up for the fact that you believe in a flat earth and put it where it needs to be

44:25 Yeah, I get what you're saying. And there are videos out there of people seeing two suns and you mentioned the magnifying glass if there is a dome maybe there is some kind of reflection type of thing that Could be seen really i just think this either or argument it might be silly because you have to think what is life actually. Maybe this is a paradoxical realm for the creator to have fractalized experience in a physical place that shouldn't even be thought of in a materialist context where every aspect needs to be broken down even if five of eric debay's two hundred proofs

45:05 Have some merit that's a problem and vice versa for the globe earthers like i mean in the flat earth is too it just. It's a little difficult it's a little difficult to get wrapped up in the either or argument when maybe the reality is that, i don't like to use hologram i don't like to use terms like simulation But maybe this is God's sandbox for physical experience and we're hyper analyzing it as if it's something objectively solid and real, and it just isn't. Maybe! Yeah, maybe. I look at it differently. I do think that you have to jive with observations whatever we decide on now doesn't mean that it has to when you say either or is it a false dichotomy? Well the earth is either flat or its sphere there's really no other option at least what I've ever seen nobody's ever come forward and said well maybe it's this reverse saddle inside because it has to match observations and the only thing that comes close is the flat Earth or the globe Earth

46:04 Both of them are pretty close, but the flat Earth falls apart when you get south of the equator. It really just has no way of being correct anymore and again if we went down there and saw the sunset and we saw that the South was not working as it's described then the go-to model would be the flat Earth and that would be what I would expect to see there but everything else just leans towards... And again like he said all these other 200 proofs, a lot of his proofs are true on the globe earth, right? So the idea of we measure flat below our feet. That's the globe earth claim or water finds its levels. The globe Earth claims that as well. We see too far. The globe Earth claims that so a lot of things that I used to think were flatter evidence are actually globe. That's what the globe predicts and it just so happens that we can steal it because the earth is so big that it looks flat

46:50 Right but the conventional model also does tell us that our eyes and the composition of our physicality are all twisted up like isn't what we see supposed to be backwards and flipped in there i self corrected not like there's a lot of weird stuff so like even our senses can't necessarily be trusted. I don't know, but i did want to ask you this because i don't want to get caught up in like the debate of flat earth 101 because i'm really not even the guy to do it and there's so many hours of content out there. But i guess when it comes to what has happened... Do you think that you

47:27 would be receptive to the conclusions if you weren't physically there? Or would you be acting like a lot of the other people are acting towards you. Well, I mean it's hard to say. I mean, I would like to believe that I wouldn't be acting like them but I also recognize that I might. The only difference is is that if anybody else did what we did, the amount of cameras, the amount of footage for instance, I went live the 11th from Punta Arenas, the 12th from Punta Arenas, the 13th, the 14th from Antarctica 15 16 17 so every day that I was down there I went live That's pretty hard to, we can't fake that. I actually said the scores of football games that were on Thursday night when we got there to prove that it was there when we said we interacted with the chat proving that it was live so I would like to think if it was other people who went there then I would certainly not just dismiss it outright and not go by things they went by. They were saying things like oh there are no footprints in the snow but there is no snow there. They were very confused about that

48:21 You couldn't see our breath, so people said it was in a studio. But then you can just look up one time on Google why don't I see my breath in Antarctica? Well that's because its got a humidity of 0.01%. It's completely dry. Its a desert and so people are confused about what Antarctica actually is they would show images of the mountain and say look at the mountain hasn't changed in three years well that true because It doesn't snow there. So people don't realize that they think it snows all the time in Antarctica, it doesn't just never gets above 32 degrees so it never melts. It's just keeps accumulating ice. To me I know that flat earth will never be correct just based off the people involved really back when you go back to Rob Skiba being there and Bob Nodell from Glowbusters a lot of these guys were into the research science end of

49:08 Today, we don't have people like that anymore. There's just people who do live streams, there's people who make fun of Globers who basically it's like a big echo chamber. They never provide anything and there's even people that have started branching off into people who think the Earth is rising up and I just see it as a huge distraction and something that will never come to fruition. There'll never be a day where we wake up in the Earth B flat, just will never happen because again, the sunrise sunset times...I don't know if you know this but if you went to December 21st let's say that's when the South would be having its 24-hour sun. So if you put your marker on a globe at the South Pole, it would be 24 hours of daylight as you move it up to the North Pole. It just reduces in perfect unison 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 all the way do you get to zero? And then when it's June 21st, it's the opposite starts at 24 hours at the North Pole and you drag that bar down and it's the daylight hours go perfectly down to zero at the South Pole so That's because the Earth is

50:05 It's symmetrical, right? It's the same in the north as it is at the south. Just six months later everything has flipped. We have a North Pole sun that if you stood at the North Pole it goes around from your left hand to your right hand, no matter which direction you're looking. If you're at the North Pole, the sun goes left or right. In the South Pole, same thing. The sun goes the opposite direction, right to left. That right there cannot happen on any flat earth because the Sun would have to change directions in the sky. How does it go right for these people and then all of a sudden now it's the Southern summer so I'm going to go left. Well, that doesn't work because if it went left then we would see it in the north set right to left but we actually see it stay left-to-right. So to me, it's clear and I thought that when we came back telling people hey the south is what

50:45 is told to us. Everything jives exactly where it's at, you know I don't know if you know this but if you go 69 miles and stay on a longitude line north or south every 69 miles then the stars the North Star would drop by one degree right? And if you take that 69 miles times 360 it's the circumference of the earth so you could call a friend and say hey do me a favor walk north 69 miles until me how much the North Star reduces or actually would go higher in the sky And they'll say one degree. So everybody in the Earth can do that and we would all come back with one degree, which means the Earth is a sphere of circumference 24000 miles right? Well one of the convincing things to me has always been the time-lapse photography of the North Star and you know You're kind of talking adjacent to that now But when you see all the stars make a perfect circle around it It's like okay That would account for the rotation of the earth but not the orbit of the earth shouldn't those stars look more like a

51:40 hold out slinky shouldn't they look more like a spiral that's going out or at least an oval because the planet has changed its position over those twenty four hours a little bit, so i was found not to be weird but i wanted to just ask you this so you are one of four flat earthers it went on this trip. Lizbeth, Austin Witset and someone named Jonathan. I just am getting these from the video you made the trailer. You didn't say Jonathan's last name and I'm not really in the Fly Earth community but how have these other three people handled the trip? And what was seen where are they at with this? Well it's kind of caused some issues so i mean Austin is taking some time off he's kind of thinking through it but I think he's still firmly in the flat camp

52:25 Elizabeth Acosta, she came back. She was doing her thing but she got in a car accident and stepped down from Mark Sargent's show recently so who knows what she is going to come back and do? But she was always on Clubhouse so she didn't have a real big YouTube following. And then the other guy Jonathan Marrionday is his name he was just added to the list basically about a month before the trip and he's a documentary film producer so he's actually making the documentary of the trip that we did and I saw the first five minutes over recently and it is pretty awesome But I don't know his position yet. I don't know if he's going to come out and say, he thinks the earth is a... He's kind of like you more? He's gonna be where he's open to everything and doesn't want to pick a side. And then he thinks it's better if you just kinda leave yourself open and it could be either or, and maybe these observations did lean towards this but I don't think he'll settle real hard on one camp or the other

53:13 I really just want, i would love for people to realize that we were wrong. It's okay it is actually part of growth being wrong that when you realize you are closer to being right and so if you've actually done the 10 years like i have You know everything about the flat earth what works what doesn't What things we shelved So just like you talk about stars going around But the stars go the opposite direction for the people in the South. And so that becomes kind of questionable because the star should all be going in the same direction around a flat Earth, same thing is true if in the South they have circumpolar stars which are just like in the North If you look at kind of The Big Dipper right it goes around doesn't set for anybody everybody sees the entire

53:53 Well, in the South they have the same thing. They have circumpolar Southern stars which means if you watch them for 24 hours they would just go around in a little spot in the sky that has sigma canis. The problem with that is of course those stars are on the outer edge of the flat Earth so they actually have to go all the way around the flat Earth and come back. Well how do they just stay in this spot in the sky and circle the whole? So that doesn't work I mean it just doesn't... And these things we've known for years and what we kind of done is just shelve things Oh, somebody will get to that. Somebody will cover that. Somebody will figure that out." And then I realized nobody's even trying and they just dismiss everything so if i brought that up to a flatterer today would say it doesn't matter he'd be like well no it does matter because it's the star now it doesn't matter So I just got to the point where I said this will never be what it was because the people are okay with that

54:38 Which is really sad because we all got into this because we thought were being lied to about the shape of the earth. Well, now all these people that are in it are being lied to about the shape of the earth from the side that they joined and that's pretty ironic, pretty sad because they were absolutely against indoctrination But now they're pro indoctrination, as long as it's for the flat earth. They repeat these mantras you can't tell the shape of the ground by looking at lights in the sky. It's like well who made that up? It's just a flat earther who started saying that and then everybody said yeah we'll just pick up on that but you can actually use the stars in this and that's how we map everything! That's how they got it! How do you think we got the map of the earth is we used the stars and their GP positions so it's actually okay and it's part of getting to the bottom of things but they want to dismiss it outright

55:22 And they just go by saying what looks flattened that's the way i want it but again but this doesn't work and then you got people believe in infinite plane and people who believe there is a dome and its just kind of. Nobody actually gets anywhere nobody's actually, figuring it out. Now they want to now, they're like oh let's take a flight across Antarctica I'm like well the same thing would happen no matter what you did at this point people are just going to say doesn't matter so i mean i don't want people to think that i didn't have a spite but it was partially because of what i saw when we got back right being accused of not actually doing and then being told it doesn't matter, and then having lies made up about you. And then Dave Weiss told people that I was getting a house, that I'd be getting a house courtesy of whoever for doing this lie which is crazy. It's a 10-year friend who just because you change your...and I get it he has the app, that's where he makes his money. And I'm not saying he's even lying. I'm saying they can have that feeling in your head like you're so right that anything that comes from the outside means it's immediately wrong

56:19 And that's where he's at, right? I mean Christians are like that. Christians...I grew up Christian where i was told if anything comes from outside the Bible it's from Satan well what that does is it keeps you locked in that belief system because anybody who comes out saying hey but this is weird about Christianity or this doesn't work you immediately say nope that Satan so your stuck until you actually have the balls to say I'm gonna actually go on my own and not listen to that repeated mantra So I personally think The Flat Earth will not be Very big at the end of this year I think it's going to fall away but not gone completely tell you that much right. It'll never be gone because people have made. The religion about it yet too big of a commitment but it is funny you mention his app because i saw your breakdown of how the app data was never handled correctly and that it was. Prone to a data breach i believe there wasn't a debris but in the video you showed hey here's all the people have the app and where they live and you home then on robot polisher,

57:15 who is someone I've known since kindergarten. Oh, really? And I just was like holy shit yeah you know who told Robot Polisher about the flat earth i did but do you want to talk and then he went further than I ever thought anyone would go but... He does great work too! I like the guy. He does do great work. I love the dude but it was just so funny to see you point out that this anonymous figure that I've known forever Well, luckily I didn't zoom too far in. No no it's all good i hit him up about that and we both had a little bit of a laugh as long as nobody drops a bomb of some type he should be okay so i know that eric dubay of course has been coming out against this trip pretty hard he's been analyzing all the footage like we would analyze the moon landing footage and finding all these little things that he thinks

58:06 reasons to be skeptical of this trip. And I just figured I'd bring him on to make his case, Eric are you there? That'd be awesome. You wouldn't talk to me. Could you imagine? That would have been the greatest show ever! I didn't even fool you, uh... No, he's not gonna talk to me. He doesn't talk too much. Yeah yeah yeah but i will say when i watched his videos the couple of things that i found to be somewhat convincing is he has a few clips where you're looking at the snow and there's footprints and tracks everywhere boot prints everywhere and then a couple people shuffle their feet and there's nothing

58:43 That's a curious thing. All you can really say is, yeah I don't fucking know this...I was there and if you see something weird in footage? So one of those things is that that was the early footage we put up so it's like less quality right? If you take video down to Antarctica and then upload it to YouTube by the time you download from YouTube its been compressed. And what that is basically how much change needs to happen in a certain area in order for the encoder to pick it up. So if you are just downloading 720p, then let's say the ice looks similar in color well then the render doesn't actually change per each one now that's just one thing but the other thing is those things are ice so when you take I don't know what the machine is called I'm not from California so I don't deal with ice

59:28 or snow, but they have like a rake machine. It's like a compactor that compacts the ice and then if you're walking around a lot you'll kick up and it will create snow which is from the broken ice right? So at times you would see people walking on the snow part but then they would walk on the ice part and people would expect to see footprints there now a lot of people who live in the cold laughed at that and said what no that you don't leave footprints on compacted ice so it just seems to be a misunderstanding in most cases I didn't think there was really anything compelling about The only thing that I found interesting in a way was that none of the people that work down there would really agree to be on camera. You know, it asked them and they would just kind of decline now get it because we also declined to be part of their promotional material so I know that if I declined being in their stuff maybe they told me to climb being in their stuff could be something as simple or just could be that they've been misquoted before or taken out of context since far away from

1:00:21 They wouldn't even get to see it, right? If we came back and started saying some shit. It's not like they would even have a chance to review it. So anyway I thought that was weird but besides that there really wasn't anything particularly surprising about it and that's the thing The trip was 100% as proclaimed as built And it was miserable! I mean it wasn't fun...I would go back but it wasn't uh..it wasn't a pleasure trip so just saying that yeah To me if there was any chance of the flat earth coming back way that it could be explained, I would still be right there championing it. But there just isn't once you understand what the sun does and the fact that it circles... If it circles you in Antarctica, it has to bring light to Australia so Australia is on the other side of the earth 30,000 miles away out of the sun get over there and it's the sun. It's the actual sun brings heat and it brings light. So even if you introduce another one now we have two suns that both bring heat and light but both have the exact same sunspots. And this just doesn't make any sense

1:01:17 We could continue to do this and I do enjoy it. I just don't want to keep you too long, but I want to make sure we save time here You know the way the show is cut i put the end on both versions of the show and I think it's important to ask you how you plan to move forward. I know myself having put all my eggs in this conspiracy podcasting basket, it would be super hard to make any sort of radical pivot if the audience cultivated was not on board you have a family that makes it even more difficult do you plan to continue on as a streamer or conspiracy content creator in this space going forward? Or, I mean cause once you start making your money this way or you start. You know, you've put a lot of energy into this. You're not gonna throw it away. How are you gonna pivot? Yeah. I mean, I've kind of already done that and I guess it's and I don't want to try and put myself on the pedestal, but I do think that I put truth before everything else. And that's been known about me forever because

1:02:15 gone anti-Christian before, whereas if you're a flat earther that's your audience. It's Christians so if I cared about money first I would definitely be a Christian and I'd be promoting that but I didn't. So I always had… this kind of strange relationship. And now it's even more strange, I mean talk about the biggest loser on YouTube would be me because i'm really just keep damaging my audience by now it's like well...I still don't believe in Mars rovers and so then the science crowd is going to come over to me but they're gonna be like what? This guy doesn't believe in Mars rovers he's a douchebag! He's a loser man! The flat earthers are gonna say what this guy's a sphere believer so yeah I kind of lose everybody right Anybody who's a truth or I kind of lose. A man without a country! Yeah, and I don't want to be a globe pusher or flat earth debunker and the reason for that is because it's not my job like...I was teaching flat earth because i thought we were being lied to about the shape of the Earth so once I realized we're not, I don't need to now teach the globe that school's job that's on my job So I guess by being honest I hope there's something that pops out

1:03:13 And if there's not, then I'm gonna have to shut it down and go back to working. Do I want to do that? No! At the same time the alternative to that really meant to me that i would have to come back and pretend that I believe in a flat earth or pretend that I think It has a viable path going forward...and I don't There's no way that we could see the observations that we see and the earth be flat. It just doesn't work unless God of this world is a deceiver and wanted us to think a certain way, so made the world look like a sphere but it's not? And then in that case I don't really know if I can care about that. So he was deceiving us on purpose well then you're going to fall for the deception oh wow its' not really a deception if the earth maps as a sphere than it should be a sphere. Again could it be paradox or some sort of metaphysical thing

1:04:01 I guess so, but then why make it answerable by a sphere? There's just nothing that the sphere doesn't answer. There's no observation that we have where we're like oh the sphere doesn't answer that." I suppose so! Well there are no shortage of deceptions in this world on a true truth-seeking quest, so i hope you do find some things because...I don't want to hang up your hat—you've got enough hats hanging behind you and you don't need one more up there. You know, thanks for talking to me. I know this, I didn't want this to be like a grilling session, but I did want this to be like, uh, yeah, I've cultivated my place in the middle. So I think if there's anyone who can navigate this conversation and try not offend either side, I think I've earned my spot there

1:04:46 Yeah, I think you have. You've always done a good job of that every time i was here you did play both sides and kind of played devil's advocate and That's a good thing because if we don't have anybody doing that then you have people who get stuck in what they believe And usually made me think about some things today that I have to kind of contemplate but it's a good thing It can be a bad thing Cheers Well No matter the reason, it's tough to have a brigade of people coming at you the way they have. I look forward to seeing what sort of work you do after all this. I hope people might think about how it feels to be on the receiving end of all this hate over something so disconnected from anyone's actual life. There are so many other subjects we go to Thanksgiving dinner and we go to Christmas morning with our families. We don't make them check every single box of our belief system

1:05:34 So like just chill out why so serious i would say but I hope they back off. I hope people stop taking it so personal what this other person they've never met on the internet believes, but either way thanks again and take care let people know if you want to give many links or anything like that before we call it in sure just jarenism.com J E R A N I S M dot com there's all the links there and the channel on youtube is that Keep an eye on what's going to be happening. Cause it's definitely just going to be some pivots and I don't know when the show will be out, but first Thursday of every month I do a speaker's corner so you're able to come on my show and jump on and say something to me. So stop on by for that if he can make it for the month of April we'll see in May right on awesome man thanks again take care have a good one well way to insert myself right into the middle of a lot of online drama huh

1:06:29 I usually try pretty hard to avoid drama but i did find this whole final experiment saga very interesting. I'm not sure why exactly, there's something about this Will Duffy guy that doesn't sit well with me for one thing Why care about what flat earthers think so much that you'll spend money on a big trip like this? Jaron's argument for that is well with enough money the costs of this trip are trivial Sure. I know how math works, but that's still not enough for me. Especially when we're talking about a guy with an investments background 100 grand which is a low ball figure for this trip is really not a small amount of money and usually investment class people think in terms of what it can be turned into its investment potential now that I think about it maybe in a weird way that's what this was

1:07:23 An investment where the returns might not be 100% financial or might just be more indirect. But I still find it weird, it's a lot of effort to go through too and again I don't really have a dog in the flat earth fight It's just curious to me that Jaron's position would change so decisively that all his previous research would be invalidated by one solar event. It surprises me The Flat Earth community is still being way too aggressive. What Jaren thinks or doesn't think should not affect you, and if it enrages you or brings you to need-to make threats in public comment sections...or at all then I guess you really need to reassess your priorities but it is the You're either with us on this or against us entirely attitude that has always turned me off too

1:08:19 I know it is a big deal for a lot of believers because it brings them to a certain philosophical change about their outlook on the world or an orientation change as to what this all is. Those are big questions and feeling like you've gotten closer to those big answers, is going to impact someone's life no doubt But I still say, once you have found peace with that it's probably a good idea to return to less epic aspects of our conspiratorially tilted reality. That actually could improve our lives and the lives of other people here in this little sandbox There is no one to hold accountable for the flat earth as opposed to many other conspiratorial things we might talk about

1:09:09 If it serves a purpose for the system, that would be it. But in this interview we mentioned a person who goes by Robot Polisher. He made a bit of name for himself in Flat Earth content creation I personally love the montages he's made of NASA lying and faking zero gravity But this is someone I know personally and i gave him a call to ask about this idea that flat earth content isn't actually censored. A claim that Jaron made somewhere in there probably in the plus show, but just as I suspected Robot Polisher said his Flat Earth content was heavily censored and he singled out TikTok for that specifically

1:09:55 I actually think he's had two TikTok accounts closed over Flat Earth content. And if he recalled correctly, he even mentioned that he thought Jaren had talked about how YouTube will take pro-Flat Earth videos out of your viewing history and keep in any Flat Earth debunking ones that might be there now? Now I don't know if Jaren has said that or not. He's got hours and hours of content. I don't have the clip but my friend is fairly confident He heard Jaron say that as an example of the system not exactly being neutral in what you watch on this subject. My buddy also referenced that Google whistleblower, Zach Voorhees and the claims he made. Zach specifically referred to Flat Earth as a topic they would suppress along with other conspiracies And even sent me this MSNBC headline YouTube announces it will no longer recommend conspiracy videos

1:10:52 YouTube will no longer recommend videos, quote, claiming the earth is flat or making blatantly false claims about historic events like 9-11. So yeah they do lump Flat Earth into the basket of topics they don't want free and open conversation about it's definitely censored The curiosity is why? Even if its not true there something about it they dont like Probably just that it cast doubt on their experts in general, but it also brings people back to a creator. That this life is a playful creation and this life has meaning because of all that and like Bill Hicks said It is just a ride and the people who tell us that well we kill those people so it could be more about those side effects than the actual

1:11:42 reality of that belief itself because it's certainly not for our own benefit, that we just need to be protected from inaccurate or harmful ideas. But as me and my buddy got talking I said look if this reality is for fractals of consciousness to have human experience and we come into this experience with amnesia because otherwise the game can't really even be played Why not also make the environment itself somewhat curious and mysterious and almost paradoxical? If God, the Creator made it all... And we are all God living out lives to get to know ourselves better. And have a wide range of experiences and curiosities Obviously the first few questions were going to wrestle with would be How did I get here who am i and where am I ? And if you want those questions

1:12:34 to be interesting to yourself and lead to thoughtful lines of inquiry, then the Earth might turn out just like what it seems. You might make it difficult to come to conclusions and you might set up the scale of everything to perpetuate wonder. It all checks out for me! And in our backwards control system they want you vested in their perspective so there is deception on pretty much any topic So we can't take anything at face value, but at a certain point you just have to come to peace with what you think life is and try to live it as best you can in a way that you can be proud of. Are people who are telling Jaren to kill himself or wishing death on his family proud of themselves? Or are they way too locked into an identity that is so fragile that they need Jaren to believe for their belief to be valid? Hmm...

1:13:32 I would just like more people to be able to say, i don't really know. Of course my robot polisher buddy cited one of his own tweets that a lot of flat earthers agreed with but he said the final experiment was kind of dumb and the real test is have a team walk across antarctica or have two teams come from opposite sides and meet in the middle If Australia is on one side and South America's on the other, that does a lot more to move the needle than a 24-hour sun. I agree with him! Now they say that crossing Antarctica has been done although it's funny that the first one you'll read about on Google is Colin O'Brady and there's a National Geographic article saying he consistently lies about aspects of his trip and the whole thing is called into question He definitely didn't cross the middle

1:14:25 And then the other popular person to get credit for going across Antarctica is Borge Austlund, a Norwegian special forces guy. It's also very easy to do a Google image search of his route that he took across and it's very indirect when I look at that route and I think about the flat earth map and I think about wanting to go across the middle of Antarctica...I don't know! That's very inconclusive because This guy kind of strategically went across the shortest distance to qualify as crossing it, but not the exact middle. And he went 1800 miles and there is a bit of a curve to his path could those 1800 miles been from one point on the ice ring to another? I'm seeing enough here that i can't conclude no like i say it's just a little fuzzy and that's the thing about this question that i find so curious

1:15:26 I don't say i know but why is there always some caveat to trying to find what should be pretty straightforward information? Why do they show us one big photo of the earth and then backtrack and say actually it's a composite image of a bunch of images put together we don't really have one image of the full earth. Or, the thing about all the high altitude footage or footage from a manned rocket always having curved glass windows or fisheye lenses It's like, yeah here's two guys known for crossing Antarctica and neither of them seem to have exactly gone straight across in a straightforward way. It's just weird it should be a lot easier but it was nice to talk to Jaren firsthand again after so many years I know this has to have been really stressful for him this transition and let's put out a little message to Dave Weiss. Dave didn't you have a real legitimate friendship with Jaren?

1:16:27 After so much time, isn't it based on more than just his conclusion about the shape of the earth? If like me you thought he was a genuine truthful person why not talk to him. Why not hash it out? Why not at least take an open-minded approach to folding in his lived experience I said I don't think it's absolutely conclusive but it's also not nothing If I wrote off people, I'd been friends with for a decade over... A difference of opinion on something as arbitrary as that. There would be no one left especially through the COVID years So come on Dave Be a good friend whatever that means to you Be a good friend You know this is a tough time for him Have ya seen the statistics on male loneliness Dave? Do you know how much worse it is for dads Dave

1:17:28 Just holler at your boy, okay? And fix the security on your fucking phone app. Jesus Christ! But hey regardless of how you feel dear listener about the earth-shaped question itself I hope you found something interesting about this overall situation The trip and just the way human nature factors into all of this But speaking of hoping you can find something useful in a THC interview, let's see if anyone found anything useful or fun about the last show. Patrice Chaplin listeners know I have been wanting to get this interview and fascinated with her work for awhile now. I can probably guess that it's not as high as I would like any time my interviews someone over 75 part of the audience just finds it challenging to listen too.

1:18:18 It's a trend I see time and time again. It's also very odd and specific niche subject matter, and maybe we didn't give it enough context up front. I also remember Patrice being a little resistant to answering a few questions and that is her right but the audience never reacts well to that for my guests on this one i'm going to say a 4.5 and i'm looking at up and the real number is four point three damn Ouch guys, ouch. Well who knows exactly why? I don't think there was any one thing based on the feedback i've seen it's a range of reasons and I guess you just can't win them all but I think it's a pretty fascinating and epic story clearly not everyone agrees so I'll let it go And we'll just see how divisive this one is too I guess

1:19:12 But here we go, moving on to the meetup calendar. April 20th New York New York The Standard Beer Garden and April 27th Tarpon Springs Florida at Sponge City Brewery Not far from me it is one I would love to attend but i'm going to be out of the country that week My mom who is 82 a year after the passing of my dad has never been out of the country and my wife and I asked her over drinks, where would you want to go? And she said Monaco. So we said done we will take you to Monaco not exactly where I would want to go but if she wants to sit at a slot machine in Monaco with the chinchilla stole on i'm going to give my mom what she wants in her last chapter of life so that's what i'm doing on that particular day

1:20:06 And that's all we got in April, just the two. April is half over but nothing in May! Hmm it's a little disappointing... It seems like maybe the calendar is fizzling out? I hate to see that but it IS a resource there for anyone to use. Hiresidemeetups.com you don't have to be a plus member- You don't even have to really like THC if you want to find alternative minded people near YOU Just go on there make an event Pick a local brewery or local business that you'd like to give a little bump to. I call it out on the air and local listeners will meet you there, so that easy?

1:20:50 There we have it. That's the show if you are a first hour listener, obviously there's a lot more an hour or two I think that's where we break down the arguments of some of the critics The Eric Dubay counterpoints The Scamtartica documentary The arguments from Dave Weiss and Marty Leeds in their conversation about all this Yes they really think the sun was technologically fabricated What a world but lots of interesting back and forths there. I hope you liked it, i tried to play devil's advocate for both sides so that nobody would feel like i was unfair but hear the whole thing become a plus member all your wildest dreams will come true and thanks to the plus members we got out there as always share episodes that you like tell your friends about the show personal endorsements and recommendations are what makes my world go round

1:21:46 or something like that but I'm getting out of here. I've done my part your move Earthshape secret keepers Antarctica trip analysts and 24-hour sun simulators your fucking move we are in a lot of trouble across every industry food water and medicine computer tech and energy the people aren't paying attention not much is getting through gains in the information war are getting long overdue what's left for the big old octopus to get its tentacles around sure it's got a on everything but its a long ditches on earthis

1:23:24 We need to make a bet Facts over prop Justice over crows are Sure it's God, but it's a lie Tell it like it is Deconstruct the psss Wake em up They can't continue doing The history of the future's changing Fuck Lead us not into temptation Big psycho tickles her Sure its god