Jasun Horsley | Agents Of The Second Matrix, Traumagenesis, & Prisoners of Infinity

00:15 Here comes the free first hour of a higher side chat show But before we get too deep into it, there's a couple things to know The shorter version proves the value and lays out what we can do It's just about an hour long but imagine hour two A pleasure baby It's time to double your fuck The link right in the show notes Guys have won What is the beam? Bucks don't get you much But it can provide If you subscribe Fuckful Link shows a mug

01:19 We try to make it easy, plus works with all the apps Get a 7 day free trial of JesusSenseGift Plus a chance If you use Spotify that's cool we can work with that Just sign up through the Patreon You dirty techno The planet's puppet masters almost surely have a plan There's clearly maybe something there in the realm of man And until we've thoroughly tested every last close chested view The more we think, we know the less we really do Where would be without THC? Because we know they're lying to us Just don't know to what degree Where would we be without THC? The higher side-chats show Great cowardly company

02:24 Serenity now my dameys, from the Sunshine State I'm Greg Carlwood and while it's easy to judge the more conventional among us as intellectually lazy and grossly naive for their blind faith in a clearly corrupt infrastructure designed to maintain control and extract value not distribute truth and encourage us to be our best selves To be fair about it, it's also lazy and naive to perpetuate alternative media hype stories that would never pass your filter for more conventional types of information as much as it is to suspect that everyone with a microphone that you don't agree with must be an intelligence asset piss boy with shadowy think tank funding. Though the facts remain that controlled opposition in COINTELPRO are real things Operation Mockingbird has become the standard

03:10 And an endless list of influences and algorithms are desperately trying to sway your thoughts and keep your attention. As exhausting as it can be to be so guarded and skeptical, we owe it to ourselves to constantly re-examine our own perspectives and make sure they really are not only our own but useful perspectives to navigate this life in a fulfilling way that you can be content with in the end Well, today we welcome back Jason Horsley who I think poses these challenges to the conspiratorially minded more often than almost anyone else within the alternative media landscape. Some say for better some say for worse but he no doubt occupies a unique place in a subculture of so much sameness

03:54 He's the author of books like Seen and Not Seen, Confessions of a Movie Autist. The Kubrickon, The Cult of Kubrick, Attention Capture and the Inception of AI. The Vice of Kings How Socialism, Occultism And The Sexual Revolution Engineered A Culture Of Abuse. And the main subjects of our last interview just last month Big Mother, The Technological Body of Evil, 16 Maps of Hell, The Unraveling of Hollywood Superculture as well as the big offering on the table today plethora of topics spiraling out of his book, Prisoner Of Infinity Social Engineering UFOs and the Psychology of Fragmentation as well as his raw and honest assessment of the alternative media at large. You can find is ongoing essays and podcasts that The Children Of Job sub stack. And it's a pleasure to have him back the disinformation deconstructor social engineering and former and cognitive dissident Jason Horsley welcome back. So while you were doing that

04:51 frenetic intro, Greg. I was looking in the background and i saw what looked like Cthulhu definitely an owl and then inverted pentagrams so you definitely got my paranoid spidey sense tingling so congratulations well this is an audio only show so it's kind of hard for the audience to know what you're talking about but what you interpret as cthulu is simply an octopus from an artist in san diego a sea creature And the pentagram, I'm not sure. Are you looking at the carpet that i have? No behind the owl is an inverted pentagram

05:27 Behind the owl. Yeah, the owl behind her side over here? Oh you're looking at a pillow I think that has a higher side chats logo on it which shows three impossible objects one has a UFO One has a pentagram and one has the eye in the pyramid because those are the three pillars of the topics we talked about It's a little hard to express what a show would be about in symbols if you think those symbols are evil then by default the show is evil but this is what we talk about so, this happens a lot to me it's hard to represent these things without endorsing these things or somehow. Seeming spooky but if someone was to look online in the sea of endless entertainment options and try to find something that they wanted to digest

06:15 These are ways we convey what they are, what the show's about. Didn't mean to put you on the defensive right away there Greg was just my way of getting the ball rolling Hey I was ready for it! And again it's audio only so this is kind of like in my head I'm running two tracks one I want to explain what you're saying and two I'm like the audience doesn't even know what we're talking about but that is a great example Your skepticism, your innate skepticism and guardedness leads you to conclusions that are wrong. That's not Cthulhu! That's just an octopus!" Well okay so now we're definitely getting into the meat and potatoes they're not necessarily wrong though I mean that is an inverted pentagram and it does signify satanic principles So using it for a logo is questionable The owl? That's this ancient symbol of witchcraft

07:05 of wisdom. Consciously or not, you've chosen to have an ancient symbol of dark witchcraft even and then the octopus I agree octopuses are beautiful creatures so maybe that was a bit of a reach but does look a bit cosulonic or chthonic well let's talk about the pendagrams So this is common people say it's inverted its inverted well In my limited knowledge of the occult, pentagrams are typically drawn as portals and rituals that would be on the ground. So what is upside down? What is inverted when you're looking at something placed on the ground. I'm also not an artist, so when I commission an artist to draw logo for me, I say draw UFO and eye in the pyramid and a pentagram because the pentagram symbolizes the occult now The artists happen to draw it in that orientation. I didn't want to spend money on a revision, so it is what it is but I think this obsession with orientation is a little silly

08:06 because as I said, the usefulness of the pentagram is often drawn on the surface of a floor so you could walk around it in any way and orientation is just based on your observation. You want me to turn the pillow around so that's not inverted and then it will look right side up? I'm not particularly sensitive to it – it's not a personal complaint but your explanation frankly was a bit weak because Yeah, sometimes it's on the floor so that's valid. But if it is not on the floor or if its' on the wall or a vertical surface – in this case a pillow – then it does have an orientation and then secondly since you do a show and have done for many years that takes very seriously I presume the power of symbols Then why don't you take them equally seriously? There are people who believe...and I'm kind of on the fence here

09:02 because they haven't thought about it in a long time, but there certainly are people that believe that a symbol has innate power and that it could trigger certain psychological responses in consciousness. So as I understand the inverted pentagram symbolizes is satanic symbol because it symbolizes matter over spirit. If it's right way up, then that one point symbolizes the spirit being dominant over matter and then you invert it – its matter of a spirit. That's my understanding so it's possible that let's say a victim of satanic ritual abuse would see that symbol and be triggered into some sort of

09:43 program response, that's something I would think you'd want to be aware of considering the fields that you work in. You might really scare off a whole bunch of people." Well it's possible but i don't really cater to not to sound rude the lowest common denominator like I can't help if someone is triggered by something and that has said or viewed on the clips I should just put nothing back there because something could trigger a person. So that's a little bit silly, but hold on... I just wanted to say about what you said matter over spirit and I've never heard that description but i would say that the content of the show itself is clearly not endorsing a matter-over-spirit perspective and also I said that the answer is twofold one I think the orientation argument is a little silly

10:35 These are symbols the show is about. So even if you take a nefarious interpretation of the symbol, well the show is about nefarious people with nefarious intent affecting our lives so I still think it plays and works and also I just wanted to say The Owl because we didn't really touch on that. I think The Owl is a symbol of wisdom now if you say its witchcraft Also doesn't really bother me the reason there's a few hours on my bookshelf is because my buddies who are more conventional thinkers. Think it's funny to gift me out it should say that started happening one guy goes to tj gets me an hour another guy does it from thailand i have all those from around the world from my friends trips because they like to fill up my space with things that they think are silly and just became a fun,

11:25 expression of friendship and so i display them because, i like my friends well. I wonder if this is the best place to start because im not gonna back down right so we just keep on this subject we might never get to prison infinity I mean we can stay on it if you want, it certainly is a microcosm of something. But I don't want this whole show to be about me challenging you and criticizing your choices. I think the listeners objected to me pretty strongly the last time so... Well I just think this is fun that's why I wanted to have you back! It is rare to have someone back so soon but I have nothing to hide. I'm very comfortable in my positions, I'm open to criticism

12:14 Okay, well let's make it more general then or be still about you. Like I said, I'm not likely to change my view of the use of symbols and the need for care in there and that frankly I think it's irresponsible to talk about lowest common denominator when you're referring to survivors of satanic ritual abuse or occult ritual abuse on the one hand having a satanic symbol as one of your primary symbols, I think that sounds pretty irresponsible to me. And as a more general point though this doesn't mean that therefore I think you're not what you say you are or I'm going on the higher side chats is a honey trap because a lot of this stuff is unconscious. That last email I sent about super culture has to do with how values and images and symbols in the narratives

13:06 trickle down from what I call the superculture into and as the culture that we identify and that we inhabit consciously. That the culture at large is a byproduct of this superculture, so then you could be right about the owls among the fence. That's just been my experience in my understanding of that symbol doesn't mean it freaks me out if somebody has an owl on its own its just in the context of other symbols and talking about the occult So... The general point is that somebody doesn't have to be a shill or consciously doing something that is dark, destructive or malevolent. To be co-opted without realizing it like you say all your friends get by these hours so you go along with it but maybe your friends are being manipulated and controlled or just culturally indoctrinated in such a way right? You must be very open to the idea that culture at large isn't as benign as we think it is

14:05 We adopt symbols or images or movies, icons that we think are harmless but they're not. So that's the larger context in what I talk about responsibility. That has been very much my developmental curve as a writer and disseminator of information and ideas is having to become more and more conscientious and discerning about what I'm advocating. Like my early books, which we've never talked about – I don't care to talk about them particularly except in this context – I had the name of Aeolus Caephus and they were occultism in the sense that they're paranoid awareness. They were written in a certain impartial way where

14:46 directly advocating these ideas, I was just saying what if? What if? But nonetheless I was basically resting many of my models for understanding the world on sources that I now consider wholly unreliable such as Webby Strieber who maybe we'll get to today eventually. Carlos Castaneda, John Keele, Jack Barry, Kenneth Grant, Arshton Crowley. The list is quite a long one almost all of them I now consider to be either conscious disinformation agents or people who have been naively allowed themselves to be co-opted because the naivety

15:21 I actually tried to completely redact the second day of the Skafer's books. I went further out on this dodgy limb with that one, and I asked my publishers just to destroy them all. That's something I'm kind of opposed to in principle — I don't think one should try and erase ones past — but I just felt that book was too irresponsible to really want it to be out there." Well see, I'm seeing contradictions in you or I feel like it's a little unfair for you to criticize what I think is a small thing, a symbol and logo that really does express this is what the show was about. And you wrote an entire book about things you think are negative and deceptive. Yeah, you had an evolution but I don't think you show a lot of grace for people who are on their journeys and maybe just haven't reached this place. You have kind

16:14 Kind of a superiority complex because you're like i'm at the end of the race this is the absolute truth. I have monopoly on it and anyone who is further back in their own personal journey must be a deceptive agent because, They must have bad motives as opposed to yourself who is really just trying to navigate reality, digging into different things, trying on different hats and then ultimately putting those hats down and making more progress towards your ultimate worldview. Should we not all be allowed the same process? And if you judge us at individual points in that process is it absolutely fair to make the kind of general conclusions you make about people?"

16:58 Well, you misrepresented me there Greg because I was very clear that it's my leading point. That I don't equate irresponsible adoption of dodgy narratives and beliefs with being a shill. So that is the first point...I mean that was your main point and made it clear that I'm not doing that as to being too hard on, let's say unfair with people who aren't shilling who are just trying things on as you put it and getting it wrong. I mean that's a case-by-case basis. If that is your feeling with me personally, then that is one thing but you are making it a broader case now. I have been working with individuals and in groups or with groups for years – even decades or more – and sometimes I get complaints but mostly

17:50 been effective, I think in terms of measuring the degree of ruthlessness or bluntness honesty. And frankly that's what i would have liked so that's what I like now and what I would have benefited from back then So I'm very opposed to this whole culture of being nice, of being polite, of taking people's feelings too much into account. I think that's a massive sigh up in itself. But hold on! Sorry... That's what you wanted me to do with the symbol? You wanted me to take other people's feelings into account and this might be triggering for someone?!

18:27 I can't control what's triggering to other people. I'm casting a show out onto the damn internet, there are tens of thousands of people listening." And also about feelings if somebody is a victim or rich abuse and you trigger them into some sort of alternate and they suicide or something else. So going to an extreme example i'm not really suggesting that could happen but just that it's very different from feelings but you know I take your point So then even if we separate it from the possible consequences of irresponsibly promoting beliefs, narratives, images and symbols. If we take away the consequences or considering those consequences because as a general principle I tend to agree that we can't really... what's the word i'm looking for? We can't foresee anyway the results of what we do but is this truly representative

19:18 of what we're doing or is this truly an accurate portrayal of our values? Yeah, your show isn't all about satanic stuff. So it's a bit more than just... It seems like it's become a logo, a high-side chats logo so that's not quite the same as this is the content. This is more like this is what You represent your values, that's at least how I interpret it. Well what i said was these are the three pillars that most broadly can define what the show is about conspiracy paranormal or ufology and the occult so they just represent the content of the show in general but

20:04 i can't believe we're twenty minutes into this thing and i haven't even asked the first question cuz i do have what i think is a pretty good. Interview path crafted here but, I had you back because I like you and I don't mind being challenged by these things. And I want to be liked, and I'm trying to get you to like me in so far. I don't think it's going very well. Well, that was pretty honest of me right? Well, you know, I like to be honest as well despite what you might think of me. So I appreciate you doing this again for the non plus members. You did pop into the member section and add some extra context to our last discussion in the comments and posted a few more links

20:40 With enough material there that I really thought we could do a round two, despite comments like probably your worst interview ever or this guy sounds miserable in life or this guest is my least favorite type of person in some ways. Or I'd rather watch paint dry than listen to this guy talk and riddles. Super harsh but there was just as much positive feedback as you said dividing responses down the middle is usually a good sign I know, I'm just as polarizing a type of person for some. But how do you think it went last time or what kind of feedback did you see on your end? Oh, we got a bit of feedback when people enjoyed it because of the contrast. I guess people who listened to his show before they enjoyed having somebody like me as a spanner in their work

21:29 I don't know if you got so much of that from your own crew, but this is more from my audience. And then there are a few people who felt it was interesting to see me or hear me in a different way of expressing which is true when I listen back, I did find that I was a bit more I don't know if assertive is the word, but less relaxed basically. My way of valuing or evaluating it's not really a criteria it's really just principle the more relaxed down the more sense I will make and honest and true and authentic or real i will be outside of the truth for everybody so you're listening about as i didn't sound particularly relaxed there wasn't that enjoyable at that level but it's understandable because of that tension right well, you make it hard for me to relax i tend to speak pretty recklessly and pretty broadly and then you might latch on to something i said i was like well shit i should have chosen my words more carefully which is good training from me i think its important

22:30 You sent me this piece on super culture kinda last minute but i didn't wanna quote it as it is a good overview of your perspective and criticisms of alternative media. Superculture practices are represented usually poorly within the common culture by the many forms of so-called conspiracy theory, At the same time, confoundingly they give rise to conspiracy culture which is one of several primary aspects of the second matrix. Other aspects would be new age philosophies, psychedelics, occultism, ufology and such. To simplify this slightly if culture roughly corresponds with The Matrix a dream world that uses the energy of our attention to keep us asleep then

23:11 Then, the superculture corresponds even more roughly with a second matrix – one that generates the first matrix and is waiting to capture those who succeed in emerging from it. More profanely, the superculture corresponds with the true occult nature of human society and is kind of a parasociety – a parallel world in which the predatory superclass move as farmers amongst their livestock. Examples of this parallel world can be found in accounts of organized ritual abuse, all often with a cult or satanic elements occurring in seemingly ordinary social strata, such as daycare centers, schools, churches and hospitals. Well elaborate on that because I endorse the idea of a second matrix there's probably even more than two but it almost sounds like you're saying a person in a position like me can't even be part of the solution or a quest for hunting down deeper truths we can only end up being part of a second matrix. How would you draw that distinction? Doesn't your own work

24:08 use the energy of attention to keep a person reading? If the alternative is boring and dull, aren't we all trying to be entertaining in the broadest sense. Well certainly it needs to be entertaining if you want to keep people's attention and if its not entertainment then you have a problem but its just not exclusively or primarily entertainment In my view it needs to be a process of self discovery that then passes on to the audience member, facilitates a process of self-discovery for that person or that individual. So that's a very simple principle I think in your intro you said something about how I practice internal affairs within the community we're in – the conspiracy, occult paranormal UFO community whatever, alternate perception community

25:02 And the fact that that's rare was part of your point. That's part of my point now is if we're not actually examining our own complicity with the lies and disinformation, and deception... If you're not looking at a second matrix that we are dependent on and inevitably helping to give energy to it then well, we're doing it more than we need to be. If you see what I mean? Like the more aware that we are of being complicit with something the less complicit we become. That's basically it. It doesn't mean... We can't help but be complicit. Surely that has to be factored in when we're talking about conspiracies and things

25:47 Fair enough well what triggered the majority of the blow back from the last episode i think came from when you called out some previous guests as deceivers are agents that most of the audience don't see that way diana pasolka jeff cripple and whitley streber in particular, And you referred me to your book prisoner of infinity social engineering ufo's and the psychology of fragmentation. Which is like 70% about what least river he might be the one i'm least sure about it have more confidence in the researchers than the experiences could just never know, whitley and bob lazar are pretty similar space in my mind i guess.

26:24 But the overall point is that you think researchers like these three and probably jack to represent an agenda to make ufology something it's not, i miss represent what the phenomenon actually isn't get a deeper understanding of. That perspective we have to have a better understanding of your position in the book you say your position is. Now both complicated and very simple the ufo, all its manifestations emerges from the human psyche itself and in secondary but no less significant ways and through the body

27:00 Elaborate on that for us, because we have to really know your position clearly to see how this other position could be deceptive. All right well so that's a very broad statement you just quoted me and that makes it sound...it could sound I'm just saying nothing is really going on its some sort of subjective experience which as you know Prisoner Infinity is not arguing now its not like Carl Jung with his flying saucers thing seen in the sky where he's saying that this is a projection of the psyche. So just to be clear starting there, that's not my position in Prisoner Infinity but I do start or include early on the ground which really is when we're looking at anything... We first need to look at the means by which we are experiencing it so we are experiencing anything and everything through the body and through the psyche

28:01 And when it comes to the UFO and these so-called abduction experiences, this becomes more essential I think. To look at the ways in which apparent subjective material reality overlaps and intersects with subjective and psychic realities. So my premise with Whitley Strieber was something happened to him... It may or may not have involved some paranormal element but I wanted to shelf the paranormal as long as possible and see if it was possible to explain it without introducing paranormal elements. Something happened to him that was physical, and that seemed to be indisputably woven with his psychological traumas which went back to chartered. So at least in part, an explanation slash understanding of Strieber's experiences

28:59 is as a kind of unconscious psychological re-enactment of early childhood trauma, i.e., something that's coming through his psyche and through his body that is unprocessed in his life and that he is not necessarily conjuring because I'm saying there isn't objective physical reality but he's interpreting whatever's happening to him through these past traumas right? That he's projecting onto the present And then this has combined them with a human element that is intentionally orchestrating experiences or at least overseeing and shaping and co-opting, if there is a paranormal element these experiences in order to engineer Whitley Strieber. To program him to reconfigure his psyche in such a way that he will become a disseminator of narratives that are useful to these agencies which as I say may include paranormal metaphysical

29:56 Frankly, I'm convinced that they do involve metaphysical forces and entities. It's just that that is much harder to get a fix on and so i didn't go into that much in Prisoner of Infinity but indisputably human elements and indisputably agencies...human agencies that have an agenda, socio-cultural and political agenda which is very much what Prisoner of Infinity is about and how Strieber was instrumental in that agenda, somewhat consciously somewhat admits it but most of the time doesn't. And then these other characters that you mentioned I see as

30:32 much more obviously accountable because as you say, unlike an experienced sayori, you don't really know what's happened to them. They don't know what's happened they could genuinely believe all that I'm saying with some of these other characters who aren't experienced it seems to me the one has to at least consider the possibility that they are consciously and deliberately pushing these narratives that are part of this social engineering program So just to summarize you think a person like what the street where who is experiencing entities is experiencing them because they are reliving some old trauma.

31:17 But that is basically what a guy like jeff cripple says you mentioned trauma genesis that these paranormal high strangers experiences like they come from trauma you criticize. Jeff cripple's position as this thing you say trauma genesis what your saying sounds like the same thing i mean where is the point of difference that im missing because, It seems similar. They are similar, it's funny I'm laughing because of you and laughing because Kreidtel himself as i think including the first chapter he kept trying to say to me yeah but its the same you know im not saying what you think Im saying or were saying the same thing and they could say no we're not saying the same thing Were kind of saying opposite things about opposites often look very similar so but at first point

32:10 I'm acknowledging that childhood trauma can, as Kripal suggests...I mean well first of all one could say that they're very different because i might be arguing. I'm not but you haven't pointed this out. I could be arguing that Strieber's experiences are all just dissociative fantasies, that are a way to relive childhood traumatic memories as these waking dreams and there is nothing paranormal in there. I'm not but i am alive for that possibility. Kruipal on the other hand is very firmly asserting that Strieber's experiences are real he never questions anything about them as the reality of them including an implant, a physical implant

32:52 He just takes it all as absolutely real. And so Kripal's claim is that this early childhood trauma that Strieber suffered from, and Strieber also claims this, opened up his psyche in such a way that he accessed higher states of consciousness... Spiritual realms let us say there and hence the visitors and so on and so forth. What I'm saying is To some degree, yes. It's possible that an important point is this was deliberate and intentional or at least Ostreeber and Kreipel allow for this – Ostreeber I think is more clear on this – that he was deliberately traumatized by Nazis who had been imported into the US through Operation Paperclip as a means to try and… The kind of MKUltra program though, Ostreebers virulently denied being part of MKUltra when I said

33:48 even though it's the same time and the same place, and the same methods that he is talking about. And the same people really if we include Nazis in the CIA so that's an odd thing that Strieb wants to deny its MK culture when basically he is talking about the same thing but anyway point being it was intentional if it was true and one of the intended results was this cracking into cosmic egg, accessing psychic power and using children, children's psyches as a way to access these metaphysical realms and make contact with these beings. I know it sounds like sci-fi... I'm sure you've had many guests however talk about this kind of thing. Stranger Things of course is about this to some degree

34:33 The difference however, there is a number but I think perhaps the largest and most important one is that Cripple is associating the effects of this trung with some genuine experience of spiritual realms that he more or less equates to enlightenment. He puts it in the same category the same context as enlightenment. I'm saying this has got nothing to do with enlightenment, this is traumatisation of the body that fractures the psyche and allows entities non-benign but are at best neutral but certainly not spiritual entities not higher entities

35:09 bodies, to access that individual's body and their psyche. To possess them, to materialize... It is a horror show! You only have to read Willy Strieber to know his life is just a living horror show. He himself spins it as something like enlightenment – he is a better, wiser more powerful superman as the result of it And that's Kripal's shtick too, mutants and mystics. His whole thing is about superhuman powers, Esalen, human potential... This is not spirituality as my point this is psychism! They're not only different they are opposed in the Christian framework you know one is satanic and the other is divine but we don't have to go all the way there but I'm not saying they're necessarily mutually exclusive or

35:56 one can develop certain abilities and have contact with entities and it not be satanic, but it certainly can be. So that's the main area of difference but as I say there are many more that are less broad. Fair! And the term enlightenment...I mean yeah I've heard that term bandied about in some of that material you write enough books and you're gonna search for other words but enlightenment is so close to just the term greater awareness and i think we would say he has a greater awareness yes they wider perception of things are possible his perceiving things that other people don't see it is

36:39 A effect from the trauma and sometimes when i think there's researchers like jeff cry puller diana posulka they're talking about. Their research in their observation of this phenomenon and their conclusions and observation is not the same as like an endorsement or encouragement that we should all induce traumas so that weekend, go through this process i think a lot of people like this is not a good thing but like me still wanna know about it were so curious about it doesn't mean that Jeff Kripal saying, hey you want to have this experience just bring it into your family by abusing your own kids or something like that. I don't ever hear anything that sounds like an endorsement that we should all go through more trauma. Well it wouldn't be very political wise or smart if he was actually to openly advocate the kind of traumatic engineering methods used by allegedly Nazis and definitely the CIA would it?

37:38 we wouldn't really expect that, but by implication insofar as Greipel is not distinguishing between this heightened awareness as you put it which is really psychism and he's not questioning the reality of Sriva's experiences which is a very important point. In so far as he's equating that with spirituality with a very desirable goal which is to get closer to Not advocating, but he's implicitly endorsing the idea that trauma can be used for this end. Implicitly because he is saying that was the result so that is justifying it. He can say all he wants to but he wouldn't justify and doesn't vote

38:28 If that were true, it would be justified if we could traumatize and get to enlightenment. Well yeah why not? Yes but what can one do if a guy is 30 years old or 40 years old or 50 years old an experienced trauma as a kid what can one do but try to transmuted into something positive. That's not endorsing trauma or saying everyone should want an experience like this, you're just trying to make the best find some silver lining of a negative experience. But this is very different I mean this is really near the crux of it Greg because developing superpowers is not... Like that's not how you heal the trauma that's the thing the way to we've talked about making the most of one's trauma but surely if that doesn't lead to healing

39:18 that's something else, that's exploiting one's trauma. And so my understanding and what I write about in Prisoner of Infinity is that because trauma leads to dissociation – because there is a natural defence mechanism built into the psyche and into the human body that dissociates in conditions of unbearable trauma – and because dissociation corresponds with disembodiment and with kind of fleeing into the psychic realms Because of all that, then one can certainly access all kinds of paranormal phenomenon and even develop paranormal powers but only at the price of embodiment. And so one is essentially... This is very much like in a traditional mythological way it's like the devil's bargain or the devil's temptation he's saying

40:05 If you want to be powerful, all you have to do is sign here. It's very much like that! So an early formative experience of trauma is one being utterly powerless in the face of something that was destructive or even malevolent and dissociating into fantasies of being powerful one way or another or at least it develops into that, and that can actually have a real application. Like we can develop powers through dissociation and we can take that as what Lee Strieber did to the bank. We can just continue on that path where we keep reinforcing the idea these paranormal experiences in these entities are helping us to heal and so on and so forth

40:47 But they're not. They are actually taking us further and further away from healing because they are taking us further and further into the psychic realms rather than back to the original trauma which is in the body so that we can just fully experience that consciously as it happened, not as some dissociative turbo boost alien superpower fantasy which may also have reality, sorry if gets difficult to separate all these things out and just become fully human, just an ordinary human being. I mean this is so much part of our culture that somehow life is supposed to be epic and full of these fantastic experiences you know? And I fell for that for my first 20 years or something or whatever it was from Marvel superheroes to Castanets to Streeber and Crowley a big part of my life was this chase for superpowers until at certain point

41:40 I recognized that something was driving me and that was in the past, and then I began to realize that it was some sort of formative trauma. So I reversed my trajectory, 180 degrees. And rather than trying to get further and further away from it through these beliefs and these practices and these entities I started going back towards it. Hence my orientation is back to the land, back to nature, back to simple things and away from all this dissociative fantasy, PH-fantasy It's not that it is not real, its just that its not benevolent. Its not fundamentally healing or doesn't lead to wholeness

42:25 I agree that is not benevolent but my whole show is really talking to people about non-believer things i don't think that just because it's not believable doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it or unpacked, i mean we talk about a lot of corporations and the evil they do in the world that's not an endorsement. Not encouraging people to behave that way and i wouldn't call it uselessness because we have to understand what's going on in the greater world And i also endorse what you're saying getting back to the land separating ourselves from culture a little bit living on humble but valuable life with our inner circle i mean,

43:03 i think that's part of the thought process of a conspiracy minded person you see all this negative stuff going on when your young and idealistic you think we gotta fix this, we got to wage this war against the cabal then eventually like oh this thing is way bigger than me has existed way longer than me and i'm kinda wasting my time. Trying to fight it when i should be really aware of that and knowing about the details is good there's always some new scammer scheme going on. But in terms of the way i live my life the way i endorse people live their lives like you gotta live, despite all this you gotta find a way to not let it bother u but you can still have curiosity as i mean i don't know i don't think thats that big deal but. I did wanna talk to you about your personal experiences so people know you are coming from a place of experience

43:49 In the book you describe being visited by beans blue beans with hollow eyes is how they're described at one point very wild stuff that. Sounds like it would have come from a whitley streber book but then you do touch on in your twenties and thirties, you are something of a nietzsche reading anti christian your spiritual path entailed psychedelic ingestion occult rituals shaman eyes in you say you performed all sorts of elaborate a cult workings had countless visionary dreams, entered into archetypal realms and saw other worlds and use that you were for time the sort of astral ubermensch that stripper presents himself as to his readers and listeners i just kinda think that.

44:37 It's like you went down these paths harder than 90% of people listening. I would like to extract some insight from your experience, so I don't have to do it but it's kind of just hypocritical to dive in that hard and then shut the door and be like all this stuff is evil and no one should be touching it or they're evil too...I don't know I just find a little bit of a contradiction Level of exploration which is just so deep and then like obviously you can come out the other side and say i don't endorse that but. I guess talk to us about the experiences because i just want people to know that you are not just assessing whitley streber third hand, you have had similar experiences yeah i'm sorry that's a change in what your saying make sure that is do you wanna know about

45:24 the wisdom that is gained through this experience, is this it. This is it! It might not be what you want to hear because most people don't want to hear they want to hear they can have superpowers and all rest of it but it wouldn't be valid if I hadn't experienced it to some degree myself. Maybe there's plenty of people who can just say it's a bad idea without having tried it To be frank, I do tend to lean on a Christian perspective when i talk about these things currently because it simplifies it. But that wasn't my as you've just summed up...that wasn't my way and I didn't convert to Christianity. And I'm not saying it's all evil! I'm saying it doesn't lead to healing so yeah my experiences were the wholeness. My experiences were from my early 20s reading Castaneda

46:19 lit up a kind of fire inside of me. That's the Castaneda reference, and I thought this is it! This is what my life has to be about. I have to find the truth and its going make me you know, a Nahal who can fly kinda thing. And so there was good and bad in that like... My whole life really although wasn't conscious fully conscious until this period I'm talking about has been a quest for the truth That was how it began. I learned Spanish and went to Oaxaca, which is where many of the tales that Castaneda told allegedly took place. A bit later, I was in San Francisco during the same period and met this street shaman who started giving me LSD and taking me on these wild trips. My 20's were a psychedelic decade when

47:13 embodying Castaneda's teachings as much as I could, particularly in the realm of dreaming and also interacting with other individuals. I guess into my 30s as well in Guatemala, I studied under a shaman studies the word apprenticed under a shaman in Guatemala which is a genuine Mayan brotherhood although he wasn't a Mayan that was much less glamorous As you can imagine it was much more kind of nitty-gritty shamanism And I had a whole host of experiences and, I would say, got very close to the kind of state of awareness that I thought was enlightenment in which it felt like I was accessing infinity and eternity. But I was also becoming quite deranged demonstrably like...I had violent psychotic breaks where I wouldn't go into details but you find them in Vice Kings if anyone's curious

48:09 So I saw how, in the end, it was leading me away from wholeness and a wholesome kind of existence. Ego inflation is the simple word for it! All these experiences that I was having wouldn't have happened without psychedelics even though I was continuing in the realm of dreaming and lucid dreaming. It was all fueled by the psychedelic, or a lot of it was fueled. There were far more than I could actually process And the way that I was processing it was essentially to create more and more of a spiritualized or shamanized identity. So, I ended up believing that I was the one kind of in The Matrix. I wrote about The Matrix...I mean, I went on a bender for about 10 years

48:58 like Icarus, I fell down to earth and it was the best thing that could have happened. And I don't really regret all the psychedelics or the tattoos because that damage is kind of unfixable really but as far as a learning experience I think it was invaluable yeah well that's what the twenties are for to me is like kind of reckless naive exploration as long as you don't do lasting damage for the rest your life and then you can extract the wisdom, that u had from that exploratory adventure and then we get a little older we get married have kids and then it becomes really dangerous to do those kinda things because other people depend on you now built something else that you have to be responsible for so

49:41 You can't go back so I actually endorse using your younger years for that exploration so you can carry the knowledge gained from those experiences forward in a safe way. I know a lot of parents who are very naive Christian people and then when their kids got into drugs they didn't know what to do, and they did a lot more damage to their relationships because of their naivety and that's not a good thing but I separate the psychedelics out of it because yes you can do too many psychedelic we had this discussion last time i did just enough to break materialism and you did a whole lot more than me so i think they have a usefulness almost everything you can think of can be. Don't too much and then becomes harmful of course but,

50:26 When you talk about the damage all this does it's like you seem fine now and. You obviously overcame whatever negative effects were there and you are better for it as a human being considering you have, this knowledge of even false roads and you don't have to guess cuz u lived it and then You talk about like you wanted to gain superpowers and you say well this ultimately is just a cul-de-sac to nowhere and you find out that none of it's real but you say you entered into archetypal realms and saw other worlds. To me, that's the superpower! That's the thing I seek!" I didn't say none of it was real though...I said it's a dead end when you got that part right. It's a dead end? Dead End

51:08 What you reach the thing you saw archetypal realms and saw other worlds that's the thing so i didn't know me to live a better life than make me a better man. It gave you insights about reality that others don't have that's valuable is a paradox because of my name size again is not really valuable these insights it's a paradox So we live in a world in which there aren't really good values, positive values or good role models and all the rest of it. So we have to improvise and find our own way. And I did that to the hilt. It took me very far, too far

51:44 So there is some value in that, in just testing things out and finding your own way of course. One has to find one's own way but on the other hand we only have a few decades right? So you could also say I just squandered two decades and used up an awful lot of life force And also I don't know... You see perhaps one of the difficulties or discrepancies between our world views I mean, I know you acknowledge malevolent forces and stuff like that but it doesn't seem to take them nearly as seriously as i do because well first point is malevolence forces can definitely disguise themselves as benevolent and in fact it's not even entirely a disguise they can definitely offer us things that seem to have value. And that's exactly how such forces would trick and trap us but the point that I didn't finish making was this if you end up

52:42 making bargains with spirits, let's say. Let's try and keep it neutral. Discorporate spirits where they could be plant spirits or they could be ancestral spirits or they could be elemental spirits whatever but they exist as I see it and offer us things and we might feel that we're benefiting enormously if we start to trade with them. We might gather insights in even cities, enter the so-called archetypal realm but they can be lasting packs and at a certain point you have to pay right? It's like in The Godfather right he says it someday may come around I'm going ask of you that day may never come but

53:27 It may. And then if you say no, you're screwed right? You can't say no to the Godfather and you can't say no to these entities because you've been coerced and lured into a complicity or bargain and you have accepted the boons that they are giving you. I mean it's Jesus' temptation in the desert. Satan offers Jesus these things And Jesus says no, and he says no not necessarily because He doesn't want or even maybe could benefit from some of those things but because He's not going to put Himself in bondage to the satanic power, the satanic system. So that is a thing that we are not

54:07 looking at here is, yeah because I still don't know. You could say well i'm in good shape now yes but relatively but I don't know what the full consequences are the full price of that squandered youth and those poor choices. I won't know that probably until I die and so I'm still in the process of repenting if you like if you want to call it that holding myself accountable. This is why in your mind I'm hard on other people because I am hard on myself, although I don't consider it being hard because i think its not a good idea to be hard on people or oneself but very direct and very uncompromising just say we are accountable

54:49 And so we do need to be as aware as possible of the consequences of our actions, because we are going to be held accountable. So the more we hold ourselves accountable in the present, the better and the more we know about realities that were dealing with, the more we can hold ourselves accountable. My view is simply a lot bleaker than yours in this regard I would say in other ways it's more optimistic but in this regard as far as the culture And the entities and these forces, I'd say it's less optimistic than yours. Fair enough! In terms of like land spirits and ancestors i've had this presented as a respect thing recognizing an honoring land spirits is really just a way of acknowledging the consciousness of all things, add respect for the ancestors i don't see anything wrong with that in this is kind of. A way to get ourselves out of materialist box the materialist box would say that stuff selling us has no meaning so

55:59 That's why we rate the land that we don't honor the ancestors is because we let things run amok because we think it means nothing but if we acknowledge nature as conscious itself, then this helps to find a justification of not letting people destroy everything so. I don't know maybe there's tricksters in the land i admit there could be but, i just think that in general it's an acknowledgement of the consciousness of all things is animus perspective that. Really isn't a problem but before we run out of time and the first hour there's just so many things i wanted to hit that were just gonna have to. Fill in the second hour with as much as i can but this one is really important so

56:40 To go outside the realm of ufology and occult research, in a recent sub stack you said my view is simple to the point of seeming simple minded to some. If a disseminator of dissidents has a platform with more than 100k followers or equivalent in terms of being centered on alt media I generally don't waste time on them true I might appear on their show like Sean Atwood And I am not saying they must be a shill to have such high numbers behind them, but at the very least they can't be rocking any serious boats. Well...I just do interviews and i'm very close to that metric that you consider suspect but i'm totally willing to entertain anything and especially let guests say anything whether I endorse it or not

57:27 It's just something to think about, you know? So what would be rocking a serious boat just so we can make the case that we did it. What is this thing that you think that these people won't touch if they're kind of controlled opposition they'll go everywhere but this one place say it say the thing because my platform's open yeah no it's not that simple I mean obviously Holocaust denial would be the closest you get to an actual subject can't really go mainstream with because you get thrown in jail. But even there, it's really not about the content. It's not the quantity, it's the quality. It's more like the style than the content so we've got medium and message. So it's more about the medium than the message. Now one of my principles or reasoning is that if things are becoming popular then they're being promoted because we're in an algorithm-based world now on the internet

58:25 something that goes viral. We've got this idea that it's spontaneous and organic, but is it? Maybe it was for a brief time but is it now? Do things actually go viral just because there's a direct interface somehow between the disseminator and the audience and its the audience making it viral or no because in order for something to go viral the algorithms have to pick it up and so on and so forth It's not we've got this intermediary right? The middle man or the middle space So that's one point, but we just have to factor that in. Clearly, if you look at somebody like Alex Jones it's got nothing to do with content because Alex Jones can talk about anything. He can end up going to court and people can say well that's proof that he is for real but we can get into that if we have time or why I don't think that's proof of anything but certainly before that he was able to have a massive platform regardless of what he talked about so clearly in my interpretation clearly he was not threatening

59:27 in any serious way the agendas, let's say that he was supposedly exposing. The other point of reference is my own experience and maybe 10 years ago I was still saying well maybe i'm just not good enough or maybe this or maybe that but I've been banging away for so long now and my main thing has always been a kind of personal integrity to not compromise my own sense of what's actually honest and true for myself, not to cater. So over the years I've become more and more aware that has constantly kept my audience base

1:00:05 at a certain level. It never goes over 2000 and those two thousand, I don't even know who they are mostly so basically it never goes over about 200 that i'm kind of aware of and then about 10 or best 20 that I can interact with right? So that's 2220. Right now it's a bit random but just saying that there does seem to be in my own experience a direct correlation between approach and small numbers. And also that's actually the way I want it, even though everyone has got an ego and would like validation of big numbers... I understand more and more that reaching a wide audience becomes harder to calibrate what we're communicating so that we can be sure that we are being effective

1:00:55 If you see what I mean, if you imagine a room with 2,000 people. You can do a big performance, you got big round of applause. You've got no idea kind of how those people are going to use what you've actually given them whereas if your room with 10 people, you can keep checking and be sure that they're not being misunderstood and then you can check in later and see if it's actually been helpful to them. That's the kind of difference I'm talking about so that I mix two things together. One is like personal integrity and why it's good not to have a large audience. So I'd say, to mesh them together the only thing that is a threat to the system i think is genuine soul connections Fair okay well... A couple of thoughts so medium not the message Of course like I see Alex Jones first off easiest example in the world to criticize but I see Alex Jones as yeah he could say anything and what it presents to people

1:01:50 Look at this guy, he's angry. He's yelling. He's unhinged it presents an archetype of going down these roads leads to being that kind of person and you don't want to be that kind of person so yeah That has a role in society Alex Jones has been on the view So then the view can be like well we're fair balance We cover everything when we want the alternative take here is our token conspiracy theorist Who goes on screams and shouts and doesn't present himself good at all so i think part of my success over the last decade plus has been talking to the same kind of people. But not embodying a negative archetype, add i think just not screaming over my guests in all this kinda stuff has been a huge boon to my success and im quite proud

1:02:38 The fact that i built a platform that does not do advertising no sponsorships for any bullshit and i'm monetized in i'm quite successful and i'm raising the family it's all going quite well. And yet, i am pretty popular not great in the grand scheme of things but in the alternative soup you're talking about numbers of one hundred thousand people i don't think the algorithms help me much at all The best i can say is that I haven't really lost a lot of platforms. I was demonetized from YouTube very, very early and that was a blessing because I never relied on YouTube and never catered my content to YouTube because I never was needing money from them so the best I can say as I haven't been de-platformed from very many things but how do you measure word of mouth? This is the issue it's like

1:03:27 how do you measure where word of mouth and the algorithms in the system find something useful about a person cuz you said this sentence at the very least they can't be rocking any serious boats so. I'm trying to rock those boats. I'm saying, what is the taboo thing? You mentioned Holocaust denial. I've done those shows and i'm willing to present anything so i'm trying to kind of break what you're saying here by giving you an opportunity to say What is the taboo thing? What is the very bottom of the rabbit hole that shall not be talked about because we're gonna talk about it or i'm going to give you room to talk about it And i'm gonna make you like me and i'm gonna make you think i'm one of the good guys

1:04:08 Well, you do promote people like Persulka and Streeber. I mean you provide them with platforms so that definitely is a way to extend your platform even just from an ordinary kind of profane angle these are popular public figures so if you have them on then you extend your reach but in my framework if you're enabling disinformation agents then well You're not rocking any boats, eh? But this is today and that was yesterday. Yeah you're having me on so maybe your numbers will go down! Well I mean i think i should get some credit for a lot of people saying i don't like this guy and for the rating not being as good as other shows...I don't even cater to my own audience Jason! I'm willing to buck them even the people who pay my bills and keep a roof over my children's head! I'm willing to say what what do you know

1:05:07 I'm talking to Jason again, because fuck it. But do you really want to rock boats? It's kind of funny that you quoted that or that I even used that phrase because I don't think I'm particularly setting out to rock boats. So it's not necessarily the standard...I'm just saying people who have this reputation that they're exposing the truth but they've got high numbers so clearly exposing the truth isn't a problem Well, to use another term instead of rocking boats let's use the term gatekeeper. A lot of people would suggest that there are figures in alternative media that are gatekeepers the point that you can talk about anything up to like a level six but that suggests subconsciously to the audience that level six is the end and there's nothing else worth discussing I'm saying i'm willing to crank that up to 11 buddy! I'm willing say something that's going to shock me

1:06:04 If something comes to my mind, I will. But my main principle is just keep flying and be spontaneous so what i have in mind is that...and this won't satisfy you but the thing that is effective isn't just shotgun spray-and-pray information dissemination like it's not effective We're already in an information overload, post-information age where people are becoming deranged by the information and the disinformation and the misinformation. So thing is this context and coherence so if you were making stuff coherent which I don't think you could do and i'm not saying that you should be doing this because your host of a podcast who talks to people well I did that too but also

1:06:53 So my goal is to make things coherent. It's not about just, well we'll talk to this guy and then I'll talk to that guy and it could be different points of view and all that... No! It's like actually making it coherent in such a way that people can be satisfied that they can turn away from this compulsion to try and understand the world and understand everything because we never will So, as I said it's not very satisfying in the context of what you're asking for because you are equating rocking the boat or being effective with being shocking or saying things that are forbidden and so on. There is that element right?

1:07:33 So we could talk about anal sex, for example. If you really want to get into something provocative but I don't know that would be very productive and we're kind of in a post-woke time now anyway aren't we with Donald Trump 2.0 on the horizon? But there was a time anyway where it was useful to challenge these enforced viewpoints where you have to approve of gay marriage or whatever. There was a time when it was important and helpful to challenge that, and there always will be but... To me the point there isn't that we need to push back against propaganda and ideological possession but just we need to always keep pushing

1:08:17 the envelope, so to speak. The boundaries of what we're comfortable talking about so that we don't end up consciously or unconsciously self-censoring like this is really important and so that's the kernel I'm getting from what you're saying it is good to go into these forbidden waters, but not for shock value and not because we're trying to be subversive. It's just because to demonstrate to our listeners and to each other that it's okay to talk about anything. But again, to repeat in context, There has to be some larger, deeper context which is how can we live more meaningful lives? Yeah. I definitely don't try to be a shock jock. My intros are kind of a parody of that culture and trying to get people psyched up for the topic at hand because it's usually something that

1:09:13 is jarring to someone who's like just living their life and let me turn on this podcast it's gonna be about something you weren't prepared for potentially so like what's grease the wheels a little bit i think its fun But i met more than in the sense of raw uncomfortable truth and the fact that like if you're skeptical of my platform i'm not a gatekeeper on very open to all information and uncensored sense and i wanted to give you the floor. To talk about anything that you think might have qualified as gatekeeping material and, i hope u feel like you use that time to make some solid points but

1:09:50 And since we're not limited on time, let me just throw one more thing at you. I'm going to kind of wrap up a few different things I had to say based on your work and we'll just stick the landing here but when it comes to Whitley Streber I think you said some interesting things in the plus member comment section where you wrote, if you ever have Whitley back on THC ask him about his time with the process church in 1968 while working for the foreign office in London while simultaneously studying at the London school of economics and the London film school. The same year he claims the visitors drugged him and made them have sex with one of them while he was surrounded by cult-like figures somewhere in Barcelona. Yes really?

1:10:31 And this is also the same period he was meant to be at the University of Texas where he witnessed the Charles Whitman shooting in 1966. Whitley Streber is the Forrest Gump of MKUltra, and to be clear when I say someone isn't trustworthy that doesn't necessarily mean they're a shill There's a broad spectrum and with Whitley Strieber, for example. He certainly seems sincere but he also has the hallmarks of a mind control victim who is acting according to his programming human alien or both and then in the book you write it's here that the alien abduction lore overlaps with that of the infamous intelligence programs such as MKUltra which often entail or at least hint

1:11:11 at the conditioning via abuse of children, which Streber also believes he was subjected to. Such programs are aimed at tapping into the psychological survival mechanism of disassociation by which the psyche summons demonic complexes from beyond the deeper unconscious to bring about some kind of healing intervention for the child." If so, it may be that Strieber along with thousands of others similarly interfered with and not necessarily by government. has unwittingly summoned his own visitor phenomenon, one which is both highly personal and paradoxically universal since the human psyche reacts to trauma in more or less the same way every time. Later on you sum it up with, in other words are sexually traumatized individuals sought out or even created as spokespeople for the propagation of a mind-based spirituality designed to serve

1:12:10 sociopolitical agendas? Now, I love that and I had this hunch in my first interview with him. I went out of the way to try to get him to talk more about this school he was selected for as a young kid where he remembers torture and being put in cages and kind of glosses over it. I certainly think that's relevant and related but But this is where I finally started to see the shape of a possible deception. Torture some people as children and then promote them in the UFO subculture, as being visited by some type of objective external alien being. Now that is an interesting premise!

1:12:48 What would be the intention or goal behind this operation if they're traumatizing kids and then putting them out there to talk about the phenomenon. They've generated from within on shows like mine what socio political agenda does that serve it doesn't seem immediately obvious to me what that would accomplish Well again, the whole of Prisoner Infinity is answering that question and not comprehensively either in 300 pages. But one of the things I address particularly in part two the ways in which, and it is introduced in chapter one with the changing images of man document. This idea that the culture and society and commerce and economy needs novelty, new concepts, new narratives, new symbols to be introduced so

1:13:39 that intersects or dovetails with a secular religion which is transhumanism and space colonization, also psychedelics. A lot of new age-ism it's kind of secular even though it's paranormal there are various strands to this ball of wax and all of that can be a means not exclusively but just to begin with renew the structures of society, to give them new modes, new products, new narratives, new ideologies, new goals. And specifically changing images in man it talks about how we need this new kind of religion that will keep the Western society moving forward and

1:14:27 And so space travel and then transhumanism, it doesn't specify these in changing images of man. They're these secular versions of religious or spiritual beliefs. So that's number one. I mean we can see maybe I didn't underscore it but the way in which just as something like Star Trek made space seem like a sexy place to go rather than just very cold and full of nothing but rocks Alien abduction, if we connect that to the cosmos, the universe and other planets even if we're not literally saying they are ETs but often people are saying that. Again it creates this idea there's something out there that is calling us so it does dovetail with transhumanism space travel in these various ways UFO belief systems

1:15:20 Then there's the paranormal and psychism, which also is part of the UFO cult thing. So that's kind of back to what we touched on with superpowers. And the last thing was really at the metaphysical level or perhaps metaphysical isn't quite a word but at your occult level if these are actual beings that are being accessed and harnessed then if we take Strieber somewhat at his word, obviously you can't 100%, then According to Striever anyway, the way in which this hidden reality non-human beings can become more and more active and dynamic in our world is by generating belief in it. The belief as a window and then a doorway from that world into this world which is consistent with what I write about trauma and the passage that you just read but if there's a cracking of the psyche actually allows

1:16:23 or calls on demonic beings, or non-human, whatever the hell these beings are and brings them to our rescue then this can be done collectively via strategic traumatization of a number of different individuals whose task it is to introduce the traumatic narratives, to a wider audience who then as in my own case may then start to generate their own experiences dreams visions or have you believe it's happening which then could correspond with some kind of actual psychic ingress. We do not know what like I find it very difficult to nail this down

1:17:05 because we don't really necessarily have the language, but Christians of course would say it was demons. Shamanic orientation would say that they're spirits or elementals... But something anyway! And as you know, part of my interpretation of what's going on is that the non-human element behind the socio political agendas that is serving those forces or those intelligences primarily and only humanly. They're being served by it secondarily but primarily to the advantage of this unknown element So you could say they're generating the narratives and finding human beings, bellwethers to deliver the narrative. Man! Obviously a lot to unpack and stuff for people to think about... And I don't want to keep going back-and-forth and extend and extend but just to clarify it seems like in the Whitley Strieber case your saying that the entities he experiences are generated from his inner self

1:18:06 as a result of trauma he experienced but then yet there are also objective spiritual hierarchies and dark hierarchies of non physical beings that do enact their will through society through the capstone cabal and all that kind of stuff so you're saying both exist but sometimes on individual level these beans are spun up from our inner world we basically create living nightmares as a result of traumas we've experienced? Yeah, it could be that one leads to another. It seems to me... certainly we know that you can have a dream that seems very real and you're projecting something out of your consciousness and seeing is outside yourself in the dream while you're asleep. We imagine at least sometimes dreams are just dreams

1:18:56 But then there's also lucid dreaming, there is also half awake and half asleep hypnagogic. My experience is where you actually are seeing something that should be in a dream in your room as the phenomena of tulpas which I imagine you've heard about which is supposedly using psychic energy through directed concentrated attention to materialize something there's occultism which is also about invoking, talking about pentagrams on the floor, invoking some entity so that it will materialize. So it seems to me that that's a spectrum that could begin with what we just think of as ordinary dreaming and would end with maybe even the materialization but certainly the actual arrival and influence

1:19:40 some objective entity. And there's this in-between area, which I used to call the imaginal where this objective entity is using the contents of our unconscious and our visualizations as clothing if you will or some sort of constituents to assemble some kind of appearance before us And so that's not that different from saying, and it might be synonymous with or happen at the same time with actually using the energy of our psyche, our psychic energy to materialize itself. That itself is also congruent with Strieber saying if we believe

1:20:25 in these beings, they will use that belief as a means to become real. Well I think there's something there because if i'm trying to say okay well what would be the agenda and all of this? Of course you're Christian so you might say any sort... I am actually not a christian. Okay sorry your christiansque your christian-y. I'm christian thank you! And so you might say that anything that drives people towards a spiritual paradigm that is not that might be negative but That is in my bag but i might say what if streamers right with that last statement what if these entities are kind of birthed from our inner world and then take on their own life and so if there are demonic forces may want to increase their ranks they have to do it through this mechanism. Of bringing forth like maybe our inner world can act as a portal between the imaginal and something a little more real or whatever and sell,

1:21:22 They want to act more trauma to bird these enemies from inner worlds like whitley's. Yeah it's like alien turning center incubus is on how and this is very strange confusing about streamer. If you ever wanna see street start signing a readable qr code twenty twelve, which he published before 2012, in which he identifies himself as clearly him but he's a reptilian who is writing books about reptilians as the way to bring them into this world. But he describes the reptilian reality is the most hideous evil. I've never read any more persuasive depiction of evil in fiction than in that book by Strieber so it's unbelievably dark and yet

1:22:12 as an agent or a vessel by which that evil is coming into the world. So I don't think it can be ruled out, and this is why whatever the word you want to use...I mean I don't want to mince words or stand too much on ceremony or worry about jumping the gun or being impolite with Streber or Kruipel because if they're involved in advocating and endorsing an agenda that is truly demonic, and they don't know it. Then if I were them, I would want somebody like me to be frank to say hold on you need to look more closely at this. It didn't work of course but I tried and as I said some point today

1:22:56 today as well. Like I'm aware that iIm complicit and we're all complicit to some degree, but it does seem irresponsible and I don't think you have to go all the way to they're demons right? Because it's a bit of a schizmogenetic thing, I think. You've got these two opposing viewpoints and they kind of support each other. I happen to think the Christian viewpoint is a lot closer to the truth but i also think it's not nuanced enough to be effective in causing people who need to question these beliefs to question them because they don't want to just become Christian and say it's all demons and I don't blame them. Right on! Well

1:23:39 Obviously a lot of food for thought i appreciate you sticking around a little extra. Long to fit in some of these other things i really enjoyed this, i don't know how do you release the little less skeptical me now what can i do better to be considered one of the good guys are your trust or at least some respect that may have we had a soul connection wow that's a tough question Well first of all I won't know, i mean I've enjoyed this but I usually enjoy having conversations and wouldn't have them if it wasn't possible. And sure I enjoy talking to you of course but I won't know how much I've enjoyed it until I listen back because as I say I was a bit surprised last time when I wasn't that relaxed so hopefully I'll be more relaxed and if we do this again hopefully that will be the trajectory where just get more and more relaxed among each other

1:24:28 That's helped me relax enough to answer your question. No, we haven't had a soul connection yet... What? Well they're very rare and very hard to achieve. I can plug my men's group now and even there it is relatively new so i'd say that we are not establishing very good deep soul connections yet but we are on the way to that I'll take that you and me in the men's group i'm thirsty jason i'm thirsty quench my thirst for a soul connection please yeah it should be. Because that's all that makes life worth living. But it is a tall order, I think we need to be realistic about... I mean, I understand your point earlier, it's not like they've colonized every last grain of sand or anything, they're not all powerful but organized sexual abuse goes back thousands of years so we've all been fucked with generationally and etc., It is very hard for two bodies to relax enough for their souls to come in

1:25:30 and actually have Congress, besides the chatter and the mind stuff and social signaling. All of this stuff that we can't help but do. A soul-to-soul connection is very rare and it's very hard to achieve so don't feel bad if you haven't quite managed it yet. Yeah yeah well now that my soul connection boner is officially flaccid give people your links and do the promo thing if they want to dig deeper into your work Yeah. That's how I feel about it too, except for the men's group which is very small and it's between six and 10 people currently in. People come and go so that's my main thing to plug us currently on Fridays at 6PM UK time. People come and go? Sounds like the OTO! Oh well thats a creepy parallel. I thought that was the best indicator its not a cult

1:26:27 However, you do have to be a paid subscriber. I'm not doing it entirely for free. Paid subscription at Children of Job. I think it's nine euro a month. I think it's well worth it, but obviously I would think that in terms of content that's an essay week of about 3,000 words and the Job Cast a week two-and-a-half hours usually and these potentially meetings if you want to join them mostly doing a discussion group on Wednesdays currently whenever I get enough people which is less cult-like, I mean we just come and discuss ideas. And that is for both sexes or do prefer men? I'm definitely sexist all time sexist because i'm married right why do I need to hang out with women I'm married but ha! I do love the company of men and it's not homoerotic

1:27:20 That's about it really. I don't think you've got any books to plug, I mean I don't bother... Well Prisoner Infinity is of all my works that's probably the one I feel kind of really hit the nail on the head best maybe 16 Maps Of Hell but that's twice as long so i will plug Prisoner Infinity there's an audio book of that as well as my other books and they do recommend that Fair enough will come and go is just a low brow ejaculation joke but if you're not gonna do the promotional dance this is gonna have something to do with why, the material isn't propagating so i will do it for u and i will put all the links.

1:28:01 Yeah, well no of course. I mean I do these shows partly for that but... ...I wasn't complaining as you know about the lack of numbers The only time i feel like complaining really because I've matured in the last few years is if I can't get enough people just for an online meeting I'm like holy crap Greg! I've been doing this since I was 30 or less 25 that's 30 years and I can't gather more than six people together on an online space I'm like that's legitimate Well i'm the same way and i just have found that there is a huge chasm between what you can achieve numbers wise in an on demand sense verses eight live cents so if i were to do something live i probably only have a hundred or so people show up because.

1:28:47 People's lives are busy and they can't be available exactly when I want them to be, as opposed to listening to a show that is just there whenever they have the free time. Well sure but that's not...I mean only 100. No but it's more in my experience is not just alive element its interactive most people do not want interaction Well, you're an uncomfortable person to talk to. It could be me alright? I'm joking! I love you! I think this is a lot of fun and the banter is good and enjoyable. I like unique characters and you have a lot of unique takes which I appreciate. This has been fun maybe you'll even respond to some comments if you feel inclined to do so again but either way take care yourself keep fighting the good fight enjoy your dinner

1:29:32 All right, well I'll try to brave the comments but after the last experience...I don't know. It's gonna take some cojones but yeah we'll see. Well thanks Greg! Be kind to The Man okay? He might be watching. Ah well it's good to be back isn't it?! What a show to have recorded right before The Big Storm But I'd say was pretty fun Did we accomplish anything? I'm not sure I knew what i was doing recording this interview though diving into the topic of alternative media shills and the second matrix with a guy who pretty openly expressed that he would put me in a group of that type based on my guest choices size of the audience and artwork in my office

1:30:18 Maybe to be specific he would more say that he's skeptical or unsure of me but something swirling around on the distrust side of the fence. I put myself in harms way for your entertainment, that's what that was and a helluva time to take unneeded abuse sorry about the absence but if you haven't seen my social media posts Which, why would you? Who cares. I only post such a thing if there's a long absence and i can't get to tell you information on the air so that's what it's there for but yeah the hurricane didn't really affect me too much here but my mom and in-laws and brother-in-law all had

1:31:03 evacuate their areas and hang out here for a while, so you know air mattress in my office waiting for power to come back on and water to go down etc. So I just haven't had the freedom or the quiet to really get back in here slap a wrap up on this thing and get it out to the people I also wanted to mention that stuff we came right out of the gate talking about, or you know the main symbol of contention which is in that logo. You might see here or there. I sell T-shirts with it on there but in my office its just printed on a pillow. I don't like to sell odd merch

1:31:43 I haven't had a sample of so i got one and it's sitting on a storage cabinet. But regardless, I'm going to have Soundwave Productions who make some of the long form THC clips use that section of the interview specifically because it is so visual you'll be able to see it on YouTube or Twitter within a week or so if you're curious to see exactly what we're going back and forth about Octopuses and owls are nothing to fear. Pentagrams maybe, but my understanding is that symbol is originally derived from tracking the path of Venus. I could be wrong about that. I think it's right. But to me just a pentagram is not evil. It's a symbol that can be used to maybe create a bridge or a portal in that bridge or portal might go to something that is evil, but I don't think we blame

1:32:38 the tunnel or the bridge if it takes us somewhere that's a little dark. It's all kind of about the forces that you're dealing with, but of course Jason is Christian-y so it's in the bad box for him even though as he says he's engaged with all the occult stuff and the pentagram in a practical real world sense far more than I ever have which is the ironic thing When that logo was made I looked at the art as a whole and loved it. Then down the road someone mentioned the upside-down pentagram and I thought, well damn to make it easy on myself I would alter that but its too late to contact the guy now ask for revision thats just not how this sort of transaction works so to me its like well...it is what it is now

1:33:29 I'm resistant to pressure anyway, it's just my nature. So i will cut off my nose despite my face on this one but this merch is available at thehighersideclothing.com if you are brave enough But that thing aside, I think it's pretty clear why I thought this would be entertaining and very different from the usual around here. I also knew that if we focused on agents in alternative media I would eventually face some criticism I just didn't know it would literally be right out of the gate, but i loved it. I'm a pretty open book, I don't have anything to hide and I'm just a guy doing interviews. I'm obviously not always right and maybe I can be too trusting but...I don't have any bad intentions or sketchy connections so who cares? Also, I like the work of many people who don't or wouldn't like my work So I'm very used to that no ego there

1:34:25 And totally separate from how he feels about what I do, I like his books. He's a pretty good writer and just a different kind of guy. I certainly came with an agenda to win him over and probably failed... That would make it even funnier if i was on the other side as a listener So many retractions and clarifications I didn't expect to be so defensive, but I just like to be clear. And I don't mean to denigrate or make light of those who have had experiences with satanic ritual abuse... By using the term lowest common denominator, I even said for lack of a better term sometimes terms just come to mind but i stand by the point that I can't cater everything to the most sensitive among us. This is what leads us down the sketchy road of self-censorship

1:35:18 We recently did a pretty aggressive SSRI psychiatry show that is a great example where we could have walked on eggshells and tried to be super sensitive to those who have therapists and have faith in those medications. But I like raw truth, and I do consider all THC, that episode included, to be in the spirit of tough love We face a lot of uncomfortable information. Sometimes it hits closer to home than other times I get letters from trans letters, I get emails from trans listeners who don't like how we talk about trans issues and i also recently got messaged by someone who was chewing me out about how autism is talked about on occasion which is funny because they sent me this

1:36:09 angry email right before the return of a recent autistic guest. But hey, that the agenda is to turn us into gender-bending emotionless anti-social automatons certainly does come up. So sure you can imagine that someone who is autistic or trans does not like guests who talk like that I understand and I even empathize but I can't really do much else That's about as far as I can go with that I don't ever aim to be mean or denigrating to regular people just trying to live a life in this system. It's all done in the spirit of curiosity and attempts to understand the world and get to the raw unadulterated truth of things, and that said The Plus Show was spicy too as you might imagine

1:37:04 We got into Jason's own highborn experiences, into a Fabian aristocratic family and his abuse and the connection to high strangeness experiences. We talked about how differences in my and Jason's childhoods probably inform our larger conspiratorial perspective mapping out the second matrix Jason gave his deep thoughts and comments on his interactions with Peter Lavenda and several other figures in our circle, many of which I like and have been previous guests. And you know the deal here become a plus member for eight bucks a month and get the two hour version of The Five Shows A Month best steal and conspiracy podcasting. And in higher side news we're working on a major upgrade for podcast app users

1:37:52 when it comes to the plus feed and I think i have to wait until next show to really announce it but if you've had trouble or hassle over the username password authentication in any of these different podcasting apps hallelujah we have found a better way more on that later but also if we can remember way back to the last show in the pre-Milton reality The rating of that last episode with Mario Garza of Symbolic Studies and the whole polar solar thing clocked in at a 4.8! That is excellent, we are back at it and yeah I thought that was a really fun and thought-provoking interview so good deal off to the meetup calendar next on deck the last one of October on the 23rd The Natural Law Meet Up at the Corner Bakery Cafe in Pasadena

1:38:47 And then November 3rd, a new one in Alberta Canada at Atlas Brewing. OK I'll have to tell the Gramerica guys about that. November 7th Montana Tap House in Whitefish Montana. November 9th Trails Cafe LA. November 13th Athens Ohio at the West End Cider House and November 22nd The Sail Plaza in Tampa. I hope to see you there! But you know the deal, hire sidemeetups.com to make events, make friends, expand the network yada yada but that is the show good to be back obviously I'll be scrambling for the rest of the month trying to make good on my promise to you but i suffer because i care

1:39:34 Enjoy yourselves out there. Check out Jason's books if they feel like your cup of tea, I've done my part Your move counterculture co-opters conspiracy community covert operatives and agents of the second matrix You're fucking Who to trust these days? Maybe there is just no one to set us some new craze An endless self promotion who is the architect everything I see. I just cannot detect who's in on this conspiracy! We're prisoners of trapped and endless traps, we're prisoners of Matrix is awfully cli- I'd say Paras- I prefer to stay cautious. We annoyed my head spins till nauseous. Card is up their sleeve

1:40:43 Or is some rabbit in their hat? I know there's something sketchy, baby In these higher side chats We're prisoners of Trapped in endless traps for We're prisoners of A second matrix and awfully clever Why it's every goddamn person In on every goddamn Maybe the payrolls never end It's not you Listen to the words they use, learn to read between the lines. Must detect their hidden meaning before they tap into our minds! We're prisoners of trapped in endless traps forever. Imprisoners of second matrix Oh how clever you might say paranoid I prefer to say cautiously annoyed

1:41:52 My head spins till I'm nauseous. A card is up there, sleep or kiss some rabbit? Oh there's something sketchy! Babies higher sidechats We're prisoners of idi-ty Trapped in endless traps forever We're prisoners of infinity A second matrix how awfully clever