Gary Lachman | Precognitive Dreams, The Hypnagogic State, & Synchronicity

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01:38 In the 1930s, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed the nation through a series of radio broadcast known as the Fireside Chats. His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times. From 1930 and I deal with a different kind of fire For a new era of worldly frustration we offer a- I'm Greg Carlwood These are The Hireside Chats Here we go again, Hiresight Chatters doing the thing from sunny San Diego. I'm Greg Carlwood and as weird as the waking world can be it doesn't come close to this serious strangeness of sleep and dreaming Upon a little reflection i'm sure many of us have had dreams that felt more vibrant and more real than our normal day-to-day or have had dreamtime events burned into our brains years later with an impact that the stuff were told is real just can't match

02:33 It's as if the grand architect had the wisdom to know our daily lives would eventually coalesce around boring routines, dull jobs and mundane experiences. And The Dream State is a nightly reminder of a deeper mystery to life than the fastest route to the office or why Instagram is down It calls us to wonder, yet we have been trained to dismiss it all as some kind of sleep-time screensaver. And it gets even weirder still when examples of precognitive dreams are in no short supply and whether its cataclysmic tragedy or simply taking out the trash the knowing that you have seen or experienced something before exactly as it's playing out has happened to pretty much all of us As if reality itself knocks on our mental door and calls us to explore deeper

03:19 But we don't pull on that thread because we just ordered a bucket of chicken, were scrolling our phones and were gonna binge a new season of Ozark. Well, here to rekindle the fire of intrigue behind precognitive dreams, the hypnagogic state, consciousness, deja vu and synchronicity is the great Gary Lachman. He's a card-carrying member of the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame and author over 20 books on subjects ranging from Western esoteric tradition, evolution of consciousness, crossroads between esotericism society and culture... ...to biographies of intriguing characters like Aleister Crowley, Rudolf Steiner Carl Young, Madame Blabatsky, Emmanuel Swedenborg, Colin Wilson and more.

04:01 We did this once before discussing his book, The Return of Holy Russia Apocalyptic History Mystical Awakening and the Struggle for the Soul of the World And we're doing the dance once again to talk about his latest book Dreaming Ahead Of Time Experiences with Precognitive Dreams Synchronicity and Coincidence Back in the saddle and ready to ride The dream diary diehard esoteric culture author and explorer of intriguing curiosities Gary Lachman welcome back to the higher side Well, I have to say that has to be one of the most amazing introductions i've ever had to live up. So thank you so much Greg for that! You set the bar a few inches higher and that's made us stretch as we're going to go for it but yes thank you very much i'm very very happy to be back here having another Hireside Chat

04:50 Yes man attention spans are short these days you gotta grab him and i am psyched to talk to you again thank you for your time i really enjoyed the last one in this book was also jam packed with interesting ideas, and fun stories and the conclusions of history's great thinkers who have tackled the issues of pre cognitive dream synchronicity consciousness and time. Really good stuff. This has clearly been an interest of yours for a long time, because you've been recording your dreams on and off for the last 40 years! Let's kick it off with the age-old question of why this book? And why now? Well, Why Now is I say at the beginning of the book is...I gave a talk here in London in 2019 back in the old days before COVID came to town

05:38 And it was part of a series of events going on in London called the Borderlands Of Sleep. and it was at a wonderfully old Victorian cemetery here, Brompton Cemetery over in West London. And I gave a talk on hypnagogia and hypnagogia, I'm sure your listeners know but it's that in-between state, that liminal state between sleeping and waking which we pass through at least twice a day once you're falling asleep or waking up. There are some people who split hairs between hypnagogic is when you're falling asleep, hypnopompic is when you're waking up but just for all intents and purposes, it's pretty much the same kind of thing. And it's a very strange state of mind and among other things that happen in that hypnagogic state are some paranormal experiences or they've been known to happen in that state one of which is torn precognition where you sort of know something in advance if actually taking place. As that was the case towards the end of the talk I tagged on a few references and examples of pre-cogitive dreams

06:43 And the most famous one is his famous book, well used to be famous so it came out almost 100 years ago now. Amazing how old this stuff is now called an experiment with time And this is written by JW done who was an aeronautics engineer had no interest in the occult really or at least he said so when that book later subsequently came out that he did but, at that time any first published a book and just buy chance you discovered that keep dream of future. Any gives an account to several dreams that we had. In which she dreamed events are going to happen to him particularly it's not like your race up above some vast temporal landscape can see the future with Chris will predicts

07:21 It's not like that. It's specifically your own future, what is going to happen to you as if it's a film and a couple scenes from the film have jumped ahead of the queue or jumped ahead of line sequence and you're seeing them in advance when they really should take place? So I tag those things on and i also tagged on some of my own because I have been recording these sorts of precognitive or what they call done type dreams in the literature for the last 40 years And funnily enough, the next day after the talk I went on to Twitter as one does and one of the first things i saw was a tweet from someone who had been at the talk. It was a woman and she wrote OMG! with you know a few exclamation points it's true

08:09 And i'm going to start a future dreams and she said that she dreamt that she had picked up hedgehog off the road headshots are these strange creatures that are very prominent here in great britain. Add pick it up off the road and put on the pavement sidewalks so wouldn't get run over by car, can you send me first thing she saw her twitter feed that morning was post about how to protect the hedgehogs. So I said, okay well there you go. It wasn't exactly the future but it was very close because often these dreams are subject to something i call symbolic distortion and that's because dreams speak in a symbolic language anyway so that happening getting that tweet after the talk made me think hmm okay and as it was when was that? That's sort of okay that's the end of 2019

09:03 I spent the first lockdown here in the UK so i guess it's sort of a spring to the summer of two thousand twenty now so two years ago more or less writing this book. And is there something recording these dreams for last forty years and start off going back to nineteen eighty that's what i'm sorry according to the streams after i read, don't book did exactly what he said to do Is that if you want to know whether this is true because he first starts off thinking that it's some strange thing that happened to him. Then it finds out that this happens other people as well so for him, it's a kind of common human experience and we're just not aware of because we don't pay attention to our dreams and all that instead if you want to corroborate what I'm saying just

09:49 start writing your dreams down. And so I did, and he was right." That's a really good summary! And last time we spoke the COVID lockdowns were really just starting to happen and you mentioned old dream that you had written down where you were told just stay inside where it's safe which is pretty synchronistic but do you have any other examples of impressive precognitive dreams that you would share with people? Well the one i highlight in the book or say for me seems the most conclusive Is that nineteen ninety i had a dream about the film about the shadow which is the old nineteen thirties pulp magazine character lamont cranston.

10:33 You know who had gone to tibet and learn the secrets of having to cloud men's minds and all this sort of thing in any comes back if it's crime is kind of a prodo batman so that they can put this is the magazine. Character and i read these stories when i was a kid growing up you know the ground paperback and all that started out in the thirties and forties but there came out in paperback, what was going on with that so i had this dream in nineteen ninety okay About this film a film being made about this character and in the dream there was a scene in which. The shadow is two dimensional walking along the wall but he's too dimensional so it's if you projected flat any steps out of it becomes three dimensional another scene, this isn't where his trademark forty five years of forty five automatic yes to them actually

11:29 and this is way before the matrix so they can pick it up from him and there's a scene in which. In my dream again this is nineteen ninety in this stream of where all i saw was his gun, add inside against the whole mirrors its been reflected many many different services and then something in the dream it was about fear The film had to do with some kind of sphere and that was some central kind of thing. Okay, so that's 1990 four years later in 1994 with my ex-wife well my future ex wife we were married at the time but that's how I affectionately referred her now We went to see The Shadow starring Alec Baldwin

12:11 It's actually not a bad, I mean by today standards the special effects seem creaky but it's actually not a bad film. And I said to her on the way oh you know I had a dream about this and strange this kind of scene happens and this scene happens and its about a sphere and all that. And low and behold in the film the two scenes that are just described were there to a T and the plot of the film surrounds these mad evil characters wanting to blow up New York Using something called the beryllium sphere so as far as i'm concerned four years in advance i dream. The plot and two scenes from that film, what was the only film that i drink an advanced much less of a time lag you know which closer to actually happening again my ex wife at the time she was working for sony studios among the films are working on with copa the strategic

13:09 And there was a special screening of it that we were invited to before it was released in public and before that before she even mentioned that I had this. dream in which it's like this horrible heronimous bosh, Dante-esque or William Hesperus-esque kind of hell scene with burning bodies and wolves crucified. And limbs and people wading through limbs and stuff for this sort. I describe it more detail on the book but That's the general kind of thing. And then we were invited to the special screening and it was all hush-hush, you know? We weren't supposed to say anything so even though my wife at the time was working on the film she didn't mention a word to me about it and opening the film was exactly that dream that I had had So...I mean there is quite a few in the book In a way some of its laundry list because there are this one and this one

14:05 As you said i went back into these dream journals i've been keeping since about the eighties and in them no i pulled out basically the best ones that seem to me. Yeah there's no shortage of examples from you personally and examples from other people throughout history. There is a really interesting example from London artist David Mandel where on September 11th 1996, He woke from a nightmare in which he saw two towers collapsing from the impact of an earthquake. He had the same dream six months later, this time he painted it producing a watercolor in which the towers appeared with a small pyramidal building nine months later from then he had a similar dream in which to airplanes hit two buildings from opposite directions and you know where this is going

14:58 in two thousand one when he saw the attacks in the world trade center on television five years to the day of his initial dream mandela shaken you right here realize that is water color exactly match the new york skyline with a burning towers flanks by the pyramid topped american express building and. He also is someone who's had recurring precognitive dreams. Apparently there was a documentary about him, but I was also going to quote you here when you talk about the hypnagogic state and you say while on the hypnagogic threshold, we can have some unusual experiences. We can watch dreams form and see them with a startling vividness while yet still being awake and aware of our surroundings." And that's strange I can't recall having the experience of watching dreams form while still kind of awake but i also haven't practiced it It seems like maybe you have what insights have you gotten into dreaming overall by hanging out in that hypnogogic state?

15:58 What is something that you can acquire the habit of being able to remain in that state. Or you can just sort of learn how to pay attention as your phone is sleep i mean it's best actually do it if you can get up early in the morning a bit earlier than usually do and drift out of sleep rather then sink into sleep the reason its better is that oftentimes before you get the hang of it, you just get a bad night's sleep. If you're trying to stay awake as your falling asleep which is the exact opposite of what you want to do but if you can linger in the morning and waking up and say okay I'm gonna stay in this state for awhile. I don't need to wake up immediately just yet. One of things there's a long history that itself going back to Aristotle, ancient Greeks they were aware of this in between state

16:51 There's a very, very long history of it. More recently the surrealists in Paris well they said more recently 100 years ago almost now. They're the moderns but they're long time ago now that used to hold kind of sleep offs you might call them in the cafes where different poets, Robert Desnos was one who's able apparently to send himself off into this kind of state pretty quickly and then he would just sort of this automatic speech or automatic writing but he would just kinda give forth his kinda poetic word salad as it were. And Andre Breton would be there and some other people copy it down in that kinda thing. But you know people like Jung, people like Swedenborg

17:36 The Swedish savant whose first half of his life was as a scientist and then he had a series of strange experiences in the fifties. It is visited by angels and jesus and you know variety about their rather luminous characters and telling him that i had to give up science and pursue the inner worlds. There's reason to believe that when he said he visited the Akashic Records or saw the Akashic Plan and that kind of thing, that he put himself into a hip-and-cocky state. So it's something you can't actually work at to learn how to do this like anything else if you want to learn how to play clarinet if doesn't... The first time you try it doesn't work most times so you have to learn it doing I mean myself personally one of those examples when I first became interested in this sort of thing was

18:26 I was reading a book about the number of numbers to book about how both you and your brother very influenced by greek mythology in the way that they spoke express their ideas about the unconscious and psyche and so on and so on, this is some years ago i took a nap or doze off in the afternoon after reading this book. And as i was falling asleep, I had an image of old cellar doors. You know if you know like a guest in the midwest behind the house there's the old cellar doors and get into that way to storm seller and they were kind of something was pushing behind them trying to open up trying to get out and it would like opening then suddenly burst open and all these mythological characters came out

19:17 And that was a symbolic representation of what actually was happening to me as I drifted into sleep, dozing off. You know the cellar is the underworld, the underground. I'm slowly moving into it and doors are opening up and suddenly open! Then I had been reading about all these mythological characters that both Freud and Jung were referring to in order to talk about their versions of the unconscious. The reason why I am saying this there's an early Freudian, a fellow named Herbert Silberer who most people don't know about He wrote about the unconscious and alchemy even before Jung did. He wrote a book called Hidden Symbolism of Alchemy in the Hermetic Arts or something along those lines, sadly he was excommunicated from Freud's circle and Freud had such

20:02 Fantastic power over some of his acolytes that he drove into suicide and her silver hanging himself is free. Excommunicated him but luckily before that you wrote this paper about hypnagogic phenomenon said they are auto symbolic self symbolic so the images, The voices, you hear voices sometimes. Actually in the beginning of the book sort of dedication as it were I quote something I heard is that was drifting in a hypnogogic state and says Lord help me believe in the primary dreams which my life has made. I didn't think that just I heard some voice saying so as you drift off into sleep you can here voices say something to you have different images happen

20:49 But they're not random. We tend to think they're random because we don't pay attention to this stuff and were told not to pay attention to it, but if you do pay attention to it, you see that is isn't random, that actually there's an intelligence behind it. The symbols are symbolic of either what you were just thinking about or your emotional state or even your physical state so nowadays often as I'm falling asleep, I see little men like hopping down stairs If you remember slinky's i don't know if anybody like i grew up in slinky's going down the stairs so. It sort of like that so i see an image a little man kinda hopping down and going down, is that what happening here going down your falling asleep you're going down into the dark unconscious and so

21:33 What I've discovered over the years is that whatever it is, is responsible for these things. Dreams, synchronicities, whatever they may be, its intelligent and I shouldn't even say it because I think its more of a who than what? Yes i had that line written down from your book often it seems that the agency responsible for our dreams is more of a who than what and, it does feel like there can be some kind of director being shepherding are dreams but its hard to put a face on or name. We agree this like you talked about this he didn't feel that they say the unconscious cause

22:19 Immediately that sets up a lot of problems because we positive particular concrete thing or entity that's the unconscious when you know. I don't know what's happening in china right now so i'm not conscious of that is part of the on conscience and send some broad kind away but still he said, this seems to be an intelligence with somebody who doesn't seem to have a focal point like we haven't we you are talking now you know our egos Are i a sense of it's a kind of bright magnetic center focal point that you know draws the elements of consciousness together. And we feel that sense but unconscious doesn't seem to have that kind of as far as we can tell although at the same time there does seem to be an intelligence, the commentary what is your setting out dreams are commentary and they serve compensating function

23:13 For our biased waking attitudes precisely in order to enjoy the advantages of having that tight focal point. That we call the ego i mean you in order to have that we have to sort of edit out quite a bit so, That's not part of what we see and what we use in order to make our decisions. And so the unconscious brings in that element that we've excluded from our conscious attitude, that's one way to look at it. That's kind of its function or its teleology, its purpose is to do that, so they compensate

23:51 But then it does sort of more than that, because that might just seem kind of like a mechanical balancing out thing. It does often seem what Jung said, what he calls the perspective tendencies and if precisely that notion that the unconscious had a perspective tendency in the sense that it was future oriented. Freud just looked at as cause and effect you have that dream because that happened to you when you were six years old or whatever whereas Jung said oh you had that dream It's pointing towards something in the future. It's pointing towards something that wants to express itself, the unconscious wants to become conscious. It wants to compliment or make whole a conscious attitude so it has teleology as pushing towards the future not just being pushed by the past which is Freud's fundamentally mechanical kind of thing. So I mean, I just came to see that sort of thing

24:45 And it's also over time, if you do write down your dreams and don't look at them for a while and then go back say three months later go back and look at, go back in your dreams from that period. You'll see patterns emerging, you'll see symbols coming out. And you don't have to archetype hunting which I think that happens some people get into that aspect of Jung thing That just takes off you can go with that forever and what he called amplification you can keep finding. Residences and echoes with mythology in the store but if it is going to think okay, change date they speak in a symbolic language they tell stories they tell jokes

25:31 They really often tell jokes and plays on words and puns. And it's almost like you could be too clever by half, and miss what's happening because sometimes it's so obvious. It's like a really bad joke. You know? Like it's very very obvious. Then when you see that its' like oh man! One thing if you know the Transformer films... The only reason I know them is my sons were young they loved them so we watched them but the little guy Bumblebee he can't talk He can't speak like the other ones do, but what he does is that he picks up bits and pieces from the radio or whatever. I guess it's the radio because he's in the car and uses that song a line from that song or some news report or something in order to say what he has to say. So you can communicate but he doesn't speak in sequential logical language like you know the other ones do. And that sort of how

26:24 Whoever is responsible for dreams speaks in that way communicates but not no direct way. Yeah i was gonna ask you about what you would say we could do to, dial up or achieve better dream value discernment, or even dial down the symbolic distortion that you mentioned. Because it seems like there might be something we can do to increase the meaningful or insightful dreams and decrease the random ones? Or maybe there's none that are random, we just haven't found the meaning but How would you say people could get better at interpreting the language or finding the meaning in a greater number of their dreams rather than i'd say for a lot of people it's probably maybe one and ten feel meaningful when maybe they all are if we had. Better eyes to see as they said well what i'm going to say please don't take this out is a plug repertoire spent four therapists are right psychologist but,

27:25 It's often, how should we say it? Often someone else can see what the language of the dream is saying. Your particular dream better than you can. I mean each of us individually are very often the worst person to try and understand what the dream is saying precisely because its our unconscious. We are unconscious of that! As you have to remember, like what Jung says in that famous interview The unconscious is really unconscious. So we are unconscious of that, so this is stuff that we don't know about ourselves I mean we can do our best and as I say over time sometimes you can

28:08 So a dream I'm having now, right? Whatever. I write it down and do okay what was that again look for everything you know I am writer so I am aware of metaphor and plays on words kind of thing but then if i go back and read from dreams in October maybe or September I'll see stuff now that wouldn't have seen then because I'm not myself in that psychic milieu those dreams took place in but someone outside Can see it because they have an objective position all that so it's not guarantee but you have a better chance of doing that but I mean, i think the thing is like a road to meaningful i think the best things not to get too anxious about it write them down in my experience i go through different. This time when there's too many of them just too much

28:58 Other times it's like, oh how boring. Do I want to write another boring dream down? Like I do it because that's my meditation or whatever. I'm committed to doing that so I do it but you develop this kind of... I don't wanna say channel because that's a loaded word but you develop the relationship in a way. If we think about who or what ever is responsible for creating their dreams is somebody you'd like to get to know but they're a bit shy and if they remember, I mean, what they say may be direct. What they say may be oh my God yeah bang this is something that I need to know but they don't say it in a direct way and in some ways as you said their counting on our intelligence to figure out and infinitely patient and keep sending up he'll get at some point He'll get it at some point And its us, as Jung said It's part of us sending postcards

29:55 Yeah i've also heard people talk about if you pose a question or something like some dreamland eight ball like you will get better response so maybe this thing on the other line is like oh they're actually paying attention this time maybe they get more excited about delivering something, what absolutely pay attention again here she your home whatever's responsible will respond and we are starting her. in a different context, but more or less in the same world we're talking about. But in his own kind of way of talking about it he said that if you wanted to speak with the dead what you did is that you asked the question as you fell asleep and as you woke up you'd get the answer so we're back in the hypnagogic state again. And then Jung, he kinda says it's the dead but doesn't quite say it

30:55 He's a scientist, he is not a mystic but he does more or less say that if you become aware of the collective unconscious and if you become aware of the archetypes then you are connected with your ancestors. And he had his own, just like Steiner. all of these guys had a deep relationship with the dead. And not necessarily morbid, but in the sense that they felt they had contact with that world and that world connects with the dreamworld and time and all the mysteries in which we find ourselves as you know, as we slowly wake up in this world we find ourselves in, we realize that fundamental things are absolutely mysterious is the first time we first became aware of their mystery.

31:44 Yeah another strange fact from your book is that you mentioned all mammals seem to dream but reptiles and amphibians seem not to so I guess Queen Elizabeth in cloud schwa would be pretty lost in this conversation. You must have lost it oh you mean because david like yeah tell me anything hanging out well i mean yeah no i understand i got it well i mean as far as, we can tell, according to the scientific research into it. Yeah dreaming starts up with mammals, warm bloated animals and it goes back very very far and the strange thing about that is that how should we say? Well one of things I write about in the book and I've experienced great deal of actually wrote quite a bit about but I had to take out of the book because it didn't quite fit in. It's this strange phenomena known as sleep paralysis

32:43 And if you've ever experienced this, it's like when we fall asleep and then we fall into a dream state. In order so that we do not act out what's actually happening in the dream our brain shuts down the centers that allow us to move whatever parts of the brain there may be and this goes back to our earlier pre-human mammalian ancestry You know, so the earliest mammals when they fell asleep and they dream they develop this sleep paralysis. It was an evolutionarily adaptive strategy but strategy to do what? To preserve dreaming you have to think about that evolution went out of its way to develop methods by which we could preserve dreaming

33:38 Because if dreaming wasn't considered that important, evolution wouldn't have bothered to invent sleep paralysis. It would've got rid of dreaming! The thing was that if you're sleeping and you're able to move around and all that then your predators will hear that and they'll come and eat you But if you're sleeping and you're not able to move around, you can have the dream and your predators won't know about it. And even today dog owners watch their dogs when they're sleeping they can see that the dogs are dreaming. They even have REM, rapid eye movement and stuff like that but there in a sleep paralysis as I said... I wasn't able to put into the book one of the strangest experiences of my life was during a state of sleep paralysis

34:27 And I seem to be in about three different states of consciousness at the same time. Hmm, I wrote about it at length but I had to take it out because it just didn't fit in and I don't even know if I can explain it now but sleep paralysis is when you say your muscles are torpid as the word is they're slack they don't respond to any messages to move And that's said, that's an evolutionary strategy that we've inherited by mammalian ancestors so that we don't act out what we're dreaming and attract predators. But what happens to some people certainly happened to me quite a bit especially if I fell asleep on my back at night not during this all this weird it wouldn't happen during the day but if took a nap during the day it wouldn't happen If I fell asleep at night on my back this is when it would happen

35:19 I would fall asleep, then i'd wake up. But my mind would be awake but my body would be slack. I wasn't able to move. I could barely move my little finger the slightest bit with an enormous amount of effort and will. And then bang it would kick in! And I would jump out of bed And this is something that goes back to well nowadays people use it as an explanation for alien abduction experiences or out of the body experiences and so on. If you have any experience with one of the strangest kinds of things in there was one time when i was in a sleep paralysis state i was in a dream,

36:02 And i was also aware of the outer world that i was in. I was aware my ex-wife trying to wake me up out of the dream, she was also IN THE DREAM trying to wake me up and then i was in some other third state when i was aware those two things. The dream and the quotation mark real life wife trying to wake me up so I mean, once you start going down these strange tunnels you realize consciousness and our experiences is a much stranger thing than anybody thinks they know about. Right right and when people talk about sleep paralysis that's often when they have the incubus succubus experiences and hag attacks and these beans that seem to be in the room and only move forward when you're in a heightened state of fear as if they feed on it gets quite weird and we

36:52 cannot function without sleep i mean as long as our lives are you might be able to go two days three if u really put the energy and effort into it i guess but beyond that i mean you will drive yourself crazy you cannot live without sleeping that's a really odd mechanism for life I was going to ask you a little bit more about synchronicity, because when it comes to call it meaningful coincidence. You write about Young's take on synchronicity which I think most people are familiar with but then also Paul Kammerer concept of seriality and J W Dunn surrealism idea how would you compare and contrast these other models for this phenomenon we could call meaningful coincidence? All right well

37:39 Young synchronicity is just as you said meaningful coincidence so there's something. You're thinking about something in your head right some concern of yours and then suddenly outside in the real world, the outside world you see something that resonates with that so remarkably acute that you can't help but think how did that happen alright so give me an example my own experience very quick write about on the book Again, back before COVID hit I was on my way to give a talk here in London at the Theosophical Society on Colin Wilson who's a writer who has written about all this sort of stuff and he has also been a major influence on my own work. And his most famous book which is first book and it is called The Outsider. It's a study of existential anxiety and madness and men of genius and so on and so on. So I was on my way to give a talk about this

38:39 And then on the way i thought something i need have enough time pop into this market just to grab what i need on the way to get the talk and so im in the checkout line. And there's a magazine rack and magazines are so place that all i can see of vogue is title that it spoke and then the headline of lead article, That's all i can see like a thin band and everything else is blocked out by the magazines. And what's the headline of the lead article, the outsider so on my way to talk about the outsider by chance i pop into market. Look at the cover of vogue and all i see that covered all i can say it just where it's outside so i laugh

39:28 Take a photo of it posted on twitter and then i talk about that the talk. And then on the way home i stop in the same market because its on my way home to something else i need you know what i'm gonna go look at that magazine see what was out all about, It couldn't have been about the, I subsequently found out it was about a singer named Billie Eilish who I don't know anything about. But I thought I'll go check and see what that was about but then when I got there it wasn't there all the magazines had been changed. The new issues had been put in place so if I hadn't popped in as they say here on my way to give the talk about The Outsider I wouldn't have seen that sliver of a cover of Vogue for March that year 2019 I think

40:14 The lead article called the Outsiders. So that's a synchronicity, and what makes it a synchronicity? It's a coincidence but it's a meaningful coincidence because it was meaningful to me that I was on my way to give a talk about that so I took as like you know tap on your shoulder good show we're with you, you know my guardian angel whatever you might say But Paul Kamara is very fascinating character who's an Austrian scientist biologist And there's a wonderful book Buy a writer at the casters and another writer from the twentieth century most is not read these days as much but you should be any road book called the case of the midwife toad and why it has that strange title is. The midwife told his account is an animal that camera use in experiments to prove what's known as the inheritance acquired characteristics which is a mouthful basically that means that

41:11 If one generation works really hard to develop and adapt to the environment, they can pass that on through their genes. Strict Darwinian says no, the gene plasm is inviolate you just can't get it. The only thing that can get is random mutations The smithy in the village who worked really hard and has strong muscles, he cannot pass those muscles on to his children. And what Lamarck who's a French natural scientist before Darwin said no no this happens and the giraffe got its long neck because earlier giraffes reached up to get not below hanging fruit but the nicer fruit that was a bit further up the tree so they made efforts to stretch and stretch and reach reach and they passed that on and so on and so on in a way it's kind of

42:03 Rupert Sheldrake has talked about in his idea of morphic resonance. It plays a part in that, so any case that's why camera is interesting but in this book Kessler also talks about another aspect of his work was that he was very interested in what he called seriality where similar things happened in sequence or many of them happened simultaneously So it goes back to the old adage that things happen in threes. If some celebrity dies, and we hear about it then we usually hear about two other ones. At least when I was growing up that was the thing so oh someone died or they waited awhile and you would hear about two other ones who died as well. So strange phenomena where things happened in three's and so camera collected... They're coincidences when they happened simultaneously? You could have a cluster lots of similar things all happening at the same time and place

42:57 several similar things happening in sequence. So somebody might lose something, let's say you might have a day where you lose three or four things and that may be a lame example but I'm trying to think of some off the top my head but he collected these kinds of things and he believed there was a law just like gravity where similar things happen together, similar things are collected together Dunn's serialism is different. This is how he tried to explain the future dreams he was having, and what that meant was that he developed different levels of time so to explain the fact that in the dream state, he somehow had access to future events. He developed this notion of different observers. So observer one is you and I in our everyday life. We're stuck glued to the present

44:00 The past is behind us instead we have no access to it anymore the future hasn't happened yet never knows right down to the railway line sequential time and events. And our job is basically together information about, all this sort of stuff. And then he said, what we have is an observer two it's another level of consciousness but this isn't the dream state when we fall asleep and when you go into the dream state our consciousness is no longer anchored in harness to the present moment? In many ways his ideas doesn't refer to the philosopher Henri Bergson but they're very similar along the same lines as a French philosopher Henri Bergson who said that the brain is the organ of attention to life

44:46 The brain is what we use to deal with life so the brain deals with you know how do we move through things how do we deal with things and as a practical application all that in order to do that it cuts out, an enormous amount of information there but its not necessary for us to survive its irrelevant. Do what we need to do in order to get through life and all that so done though doesn't mention berkson's is notion of everyday waking. What the state right now hopefully it is you know when was your fix into you know, right now and dealing with my only sleep

45:26 Where's the harness you know falls off us and what consciousness rises up a little bit and then we can see the past is so many dreams in which we have to pass. In a very vivid way you know some past event comes back to you but we can see the future as well then don't also said there was another level, above that as well in which we can sort of, so dream one observer one fixed on the present waking consciousness level two the dream state future and past mixed together. Level three is above that looking down on that and unfortunately in the end I mean he falls into the trap metaphysical horror what's known as infinite regress. So he keeps having another time another time another observer because you know each

46:14 Level of time requires somebody outside of it in order to you know. So we start out with the mystery of dreams this is one of the things I sort of try to express in the book, it's like we have a mystery of dreams but then you just pre-cognitive bit and all that slip into the history of time which is even stranger than dreams. Because we know we have dreams and you might not know exactly what they're about, but we know that we have them. But as soon as you start thinking about time it's a horrible cliche that slips through your fingers. You cannot grab hold of it in any way whatsoever It's true and I have some questions about time but i also wanted to mention this so you also say that Kramer's seriality is similar to what in probability theory is known as the law of large numbers and I love that you touch on that because it's something that really blows my mind and doesn't get talked about nearly enough. This idea that

47:11 If enough random events are recorded, they produce stable ordered patterns. As you say the insurance industry is based on this fact and you give examples like the number of people bitten by dogs in a single day according to statistics provided by The New York Department Of Health This proves to be a remarkably stable number In 1955 it was 75.3 In 1956 it was 73.6 In 1957, it was 73.5 and so on you say no one can tell which dog will bite which person that's the random part and how the dogs themselves know when enough people have been bitten so that they can stop is unclear

47:53 But the statistical average remains constant. I haven't seen statistics for more recent years, but I imagine they're not radically different and I just really love not only that example but there's just so many you also talk about the number of murders in a given year we don't know who will be killed or by whom suicides average remains the same suicides it's very weird what is the law of large numbers say to you about reality? Well, I mean it's just one of these weird things that if you fall into this area of study is something you come up against or you discover and it just seems to be the case as you say. What strikes us as random events? If you collect enough of them

48:36 they produce some kind of statistical pattern. And I guess this is sort of the characteristic of the quantum world and elementary particle world and all that, right? Because you know, the actions of all these individual particles appear random but there's a statistical average about them that enables us to gives us a predictive power with them in their kinda thing. Yeah it's just one of those really really strange things how do dogs know when to stop biting. How do the poor people who are driven through horrible life experiences to commit suicide know when there's enough of them? I'm sorry to make a morbid joke, but can you imagine the one that just went over the edge and said oh okay! All the other ones did it and we reached this statistical number maybe he was saved in some strange way. It seems to strike resonances with

49:31 Shoulders idea of more for residence and that kind of thing where somehow it's passed on. You know, it's... Well how should I say? I'm gonna resort to the cliche these days of like quantum entanglement but it must be something like that. How do the elementary particles know what the other elementary particles are doing? Right! How did the neurons in the brain that are not contiguous they're not next to each other so we can't imagine a neurotic elbow banging into the next one and telling it to light up but they're neurons in their brain that are associated with certain operations or actions taken. They're not contiguous, they're not next to each other but they fire at the same time how do they know when to do that?

50:20 It's very strange it makes me picture some grand cosmic being playing like a giant pipe organ but instead of music create something like a symphony of events on the physical plane i like what you said about how do we know when there is enough because its like makes me think about how sometimes when people have car accidents they're saved by an angel and then other times are not maybe the angels no it's like hey We're at capacity for today's deaths by car accident. So you're gonna get pulled out of the wreckage, buddy Yeah, that's right we reached the quota I mean it who knows? I mean I tell you it sounds banal but another conversation with somebody else another podcast they asked me like You know, you've written all these books and all this time is happening And he'd written this book and you you kind of opened up about experiences of your own and all that so, you know Where are you at now?

51:13 And I just feel like, I'm just beginning. I've just started to think and say all this stuff is real and what does that mean? What does it really mean that it's all real? Temporal displacements strange phenomena like this...I'm saying rhetorically because I don't really have an answer to that but it is sort of a more emotive feeling of its cogency and reality. And perhaps it's got something to do with the fact that I'm getting on in years, you know? I'm desperately clawing onto late middle age so I'm aware that I'm approaching the infinite although its around us at all times anyway so perhaps I'm shrugging off concerns that are more parochial than trying to focus on broader ones

51:58 Right. Very much possible. You also write a bit about dream history, let's say and how cultures like the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Chinese Hindus and Babylonians all interpreted the dream experience. Egyptians thought they were warnings from the gods. Babylonians thought they came from spirits. What more can you tell us about some of the oldest thoughts on dreams? And who had the most interesting ideas about them? Well it's remarkable that in the mid-19th century when the library of the Babylonian king Ashurbanipal was unearthed, that what they found in it among other things was a collection of records of dreams going back millennia. So Ashurbanipal's in 600 BC thereabouts and he had collected tablets this isn't papyrus this is tablets

52:57 And I don't mean, you know, computer tablets. Stone stone heavy stone tablets of dream records going back to 2000 years before him. So Asher Banner Paul is old for us but he thought it important to hold on to these dream records from 2000 years earlier than himself and another odd thing is that in that cache of Asher Banner Paul's library was discovered Gilgamesh Which is considered the first extent work of great literature rather than sort of religious literature. And Gilgamesh itself, there's the earliest account of a dream interpretation so there's this strange kind of link between literacy or literature and the elements of literature and dreams then that becomes apparent as I mentioned earlier when people start paying attention to dreams, dreams tell stories they use metaphor

53:55 They have dramatist persona and things of that sort. There's a beginning, middle and end. It may not happen all in that sequence sometimes but they have that. I mentioned earlier about dreams telling jokes and that's one of the things that Egyptians realized. That their dreams speak in a kind of place on words and puns although what may have got a smile or laugh out of an Egyptian probably wouldn't raise too many laughs today so Early on i think people realize that dreams are very much of the time and place in which they happen so that would say that. The kind of what size fits all purpose can you dream manuals it says well if u dream about a cat or your dream about losing your teeth something like that means that may very well have meant that at some time,

54:48 For some people, but not across the board. And of course there's all the Jungian archetypes and all that sort of stuff but those are the big dreams which we don't have that much I think we have to admit that those big dreams are few and far between and that's what makes them big If you have mystical experiences every day, what's the point? I do often come across people who tell me about their 49th mystical experience. It is wonderful but didn't you get it on the 48th? You have the big dreams when you need them they're not entertainment and this is...I have a little dream to pick with the kind of lucid dream proponents

55:33 I'm not against it, that's a stupid way to even talk about it. But just in the sense that kind of using the dream state in order to achieve ego-based needs and aims... Oh well if I use the dream state then I can develop my creativity or self esteem or whatever sort of thing like that. Whereas Jung would say no we should keep our hands off this. In a way its the last little bit of nature thats allowed us, thats inside us It's not nature we have to go out and find somewhere in the woods, it's inside us. Because it comes from another source. It compliments the ego with something other than the ego so if you start trying to think of how can I use this? And you start thinking about it in a utilitarian way

56:19 It just gets problematic at the same time, you know. Fine go do it! I mean i know people who pursue this and there's lots of different books about how you can develop lucid dreaming and stay awake in dreams and that's part of a variety of different mystical techniques. Tibetan yoga dream yoga is about that as like maintaining wakefulness in the dream state but thats to convince you that ok well the dream state isn't illusion if I'm not awake in the dream state, I'm immersed in the illusion. But when I gain lucidity within it, I've raised myself up out of the illusion and I can recognize that's an illusion. And then next step is to recognize that waking life is similarly an illusion like that so you know, that's kind of a Buddhist kinda aim. I understand that but

57:09 Young's point of view is like well the dreamers trying to say something to you so there's a cleavage there between the two different things just like anything else you know this arguments about all different you know his arguments about the waking state as well. Right on. Well, fascinating stuff! You are a living fountain of knowledge and I really enjoyed the book Dreaming Ahead of Time is a great read and i appreciate your willingness to come back and talk to me when podcasts like this are in no short supply No, always a pleasure It takes a lot out of me to try to keep up with you man but it's worth it

57:47 Before we go remind the people of your body of work the new book your website any upcoming work with a mention and all that good stuff if they might want to follow up after listening. Okay well the new book is called dreaming ahead time experiences in pre cognitive dreams synchronicities incoincidence, It's published by florist books and it's out available now on kindle the digital edition and hard copy in the states i think it's not until may and then the UK sometime later this month, i have a website just my name gary lockman dot co dot uk postings there quite a bit of twitter facebook. It's not hard to find these days so if you really interested i'm sure we can meet up

58:33 Right on. Great, well you are the man and it was a pleasure once again keep up the great work and take care I'll do my best Exit light, enter night people! Gary Lachman bringing it like only he can. You know I was really grateful when he reached out to tell me about the new book because he's such a great writer and has really impressive recall for all the bright minds and ideas that he's researched so if he thinks THC is worthy of his time well i'm proud of that But some of my previous episodes that focused on dreams really just ended up not being the best. We have done it a time or two over the years, so I had a little trepidation but i don't know what I was so worried about! Gary's book is deep and dense and covers a vast amount of compelling ideas related to precognitive dreams and time and the law of large numbers... And as soon as I got a little bit into the book, I knew we were going to have a great show

59:35 Dreams are quite weird, and it's also strange that describing a dream to someone never really translates. The meaning is always so personal! But the hypnagogic state itself is pretty compelling knowing just how many mystics and clairvoyants use that half-awake half dreaming state Knowing just how many abductions in bedroom visitations happen in that state as well It's all quite odd Another story I was reminded of from Gary's book that I don't think we brought up, was that Edison used to fall asleep in a chair with ball bearings in his hand and when they dropped to the floor he'd be awakened from that state. And if he concentrated on a problem as he drifted off, he'd oftentimes get a solution that way. Obviously we've all heard the phrase let me sleep on it when making a decision but how often do we actually think about our problem or even goals when we drift off?

1:00:30 It's like you can't get the insight that state is designed to give you if you don't first concentrate on whatever issue it is. So maybe do that more often! I would certainly say, I've had dreams where the details felt more real than waking life. As if my senses seemed more heightened than waking life? Years later, I even remember a dream I had where I had these epic adventures with some warrior woman. Like an action movie that went from sci-fi to horror to medieval But I remember the bond I had with this character being stronger than so many relationships I've had in real life and this is from when I was like 12 It was as if we formed a really deep bond because we went through so many traumatic dangerous events together but then it's gone

1:01:21 I had another dream years ago that explained the mechanics of spirit interaction in a bunch of different scenarios and many stories. And i woke up with the very aggressive notion ringing in my head that it should be turned into a movie called Pledge. I still think that's a great name for a movie about spirit interactions, even if I would get sued from The Cleaning Spray Company! Plus we've all had those weird falling sensation dreams? What the hell is THAT about?! It seems as if, just like the night sky it's a baked in call to reflect on what life even is. But we just so often don't I did strategically bring up the law of large numbers at the end of The Free Show because i think that such a cool phenomenon Its like the world is a symphony of events If you zoom out far enough

1:02:11 And it got me thinking about good and bad luck in general. You know, it's actually been a long time since I've had a day where a bunch of things went wrong all at once but I did have this day recently that I'm just in awe of It started with me prepped and ready for an interview and we get on the call and my guest says, ''I only have time for one hour'' and I say well, it's a two-hour show We agreed to this. It was in my interview request. I can't just do an hour And they said, well I don't have two hours in me and i don't think i ever will. So i prepped for this show that the guy said he would do and now won't do. And i said alright i guess we're at an impasse and we hung up so that's about the most frustrating thing that can happen to me work wise and i called my wife because she took the baby to the zoo so i could have a quiet place to record

1:03:02 and i was so frustrated let me go to the zoo too we hung out there for a while and then we put theory in my car not even a mile out of balboa park i run over a big rock on the road and get a flat tire, so baby screaming hi pulled over and up against the curb that makes it really hard to change the tire call my wife she picks up the baby and she goes home. I get the jack out of my car, which i've yet to use since i bought this car. And the center screw on it is bent so badly that it makes changing this tire even harder But i get it done and go to leave and my car battery is dead because i had my flashers on for so long My wife has to come all the way back we jump in the car and before she can even get home a guy side swipes her right on the baby's car seat side then drives off

1:03:52 So, nothing with any lasting consequences. Everyone and everything is ultimately fine but what a day! Neither of us have ever been in a hit-and-run I've changed dozens of tires with no problems And the chances of an interview being cancelled in that way has only happened like twice in ten years so it was a perfect storm of annoying events When it rains, it pours I guess. But the probability was so low that it just got me thinking about some spirit riding me or maybe someone cursed me? Or maybe the astrology was always pointing to that being a bad day and if I was more aware of my chart and didn't plan an interview for that day maybe we- It all would have passed over me!

1:04:37 But Gary is great, and when I was nervous that we could fill a show with this book... ...I said how about we do Dreaming Ahead of Time for the first hour and Rudolf Steiner in the second. And he was cool with that! But I went back to our last interview and we actually talked about Steiner quite a lot so.. ..I pulled an audible and switched it to Hermes because he had a great recent presentation on the Hermes figure... ...and I thought that-that was a great decision and it all worked out really well Some of the other Plus Show topics would be ancient cultures thoughts on dreams, how to make more synchronicity, Albertus Magnus heightened emotions and magic slash synchronicity. Ascended masters and astral hobos and a little bit about alchemy and Hermes it was a great time he knows a lot about a lot sign up for plus if you like what I do and how i do it and you want a little bit more

1:05:29 Also, pick up the book if you think this is your bag because there are way more details in it than we could ever cover in a two-hour interview. It's a very good book But in higher side news I finally got to meet Darren and Graham of Gramerica In the flesh! I also met Joe Roop Brandon Powell Owen Hunt one of The Snake Brothers And a lot of cool people who surprisingly knew who I was and were all very nice and complimentary This was an event in Pinetop, Arizona. The Gramerica guys do these things all the time on their website contactatthecabin.com This one was called Magic On the Mountains There were some Wim Hof breathing there were kiddie pools of very cold water set up outside and people did the Wim Hof breathing and jumped in the water It was quite a show for me sitting there smoking a joint next to the fire

1:06:21 But it was a really good time. The fact that I was so recognizable and well-liked by the crowd, was very off putting for my buddy who came with me He just had no idea that people would want to take pictures with me or anything like that which was just quite funny We've known each other half of my life probably 20 years I got a kick out of that, but you never know. THC is just an audio show and nobody was there for me so i wouldn't have been surprised if nobody knew who I was! I guess my voice is a little unique and that maybe gave it away... But we had a good time. We were cheering to the mandates dropping across Canada And then just as I got home-we have this emergency order in Canada and Trudeau is going after the bank accounts of The Truckers and that's a scary place that nobody wants to be

1:07:13 Obviously we're still in the middle of the story, but instead of just conceding and saying fine truckers can go unvaccinated it's only a small percentage anyway most people already got the shot. And we know that the shot doesn't work so this makes no sense I thought they were just about to back down but instead they escalated to an unprecedented level The fact that a Psy-Op trucker protest is one of the cards in the Illuminati card game that's very prophetic doesn't make me feel any better about any of this. But we are at that turn off the money faucet if you step out of line point in the timeline that Gordon laid out ever so well, I think in January or maybe December and I'm not happy about it!

1:07:58 It's probably worthy of an episode at this point, but let's see how far this goes. I would hate to cover something right before the next big chapter in that story, but it's something we should all be keeping an eye on Also, Plus Members now have a more robust account management page. My guys put that together and it's quite nice. It does have all the information you'd want but we're probably gonna jazz it up a bit more and make it a fuller dashboard that shows latest episodes, latest forum posts and all your account stuff right there when you log in But already, it's a lot simpler to change your password, your username, your card on file, cancel your account if you need too. All in an effort to make Plus Memberships more self-managed and cut down on the money that I pay for support so... It's big step in the right direction! I am happy with it so far

1:08:54 As for the calendar of events, at highersidemeetups.com we have New York City this weekend on February 18th at Cafe 28 and then on February 24th someone added a combined meetup with No Agenda listeners Why not unite the tribes huh? So if you're a fan of both shows or either head down to Pike's Peak Brewing on February 24 in Colorado Springs Colorado The very city I was born in funny enough and have some beers, and meet some new friends. And the rest of the events go on into March so we'll wait on those but hop on over to The Calendar and RSVP for these events if you're in the area and of course feel free to make your own! We're supporting craft beer all over this great nation...and the world really! Finally big thanks again to Gary for coming back on he is one of the good ones what the hell is up with precognitive dreams time the hypnagogic state and life itself?

1:09:54 We may never really know, but we can keep pulling on the threads right? Thanks for sticking with me. The members are so so much appreciated It's the only way I can keep this up and i'll see you next time! I've done my part Your move dream strangeness suppressors deeper consciousness concealers and directors of the day-to-day distractions that keep us from the mysteries You're fucking Lucid dreams are so vivid, cause you go to bed at seven And your brain comes alive because you hate your nine-to-five You wake up with a dread and make sure your cats are fed Did your brain talk to a ghost who moved your coffee and toast As you listen to the higher side chats

1:10:39 You get to your desk and your boss says it's a mess And you soul slowly goes to a place where nothing grows When you think he's not around, you insert a SETI sound The OM says turn it down and you say its just the higher side chats Oh do you think you'd be invited To Bohemia Grove? To a Bilderberg club Do you think you'd be invited by a Rothschild to a party on a submarine. Diving down, to the center of the earth through the Marianas Trench your teeth begin to clench from the sulphur-y stench The mask you're given doesn't fit cause you're not one of them

1:11:35 Starting today, you'll make plans to get away. There's no one to hold you down and the what-ifs start to drown Then you wake to the glare of a cofluorescent stare And the light winks at you cause its life is almost through But it's holding on to quit time just like you It's time for The High Side Chats And that is another show complete. Remember, as much as you enjoyed this which is just the free first hour I hope you'll become a plus member to hear the full two-hour interviews

1:12:27 You also can engage with other Plus Members in the comments and the forums. And you'll find your answer to one of the most common questions I get, which is where can i find those cover songs that you use at the end of the show? Well they are free downloads for Plus Members too! Without Plus Members I can't hire the occasional musician to bring these odd cover song ideas to fruition. Plus Members are how I'm able to do what I do without ads and without The Big Machine being on my back We can fit so much more into a two-hour interview and I do my best to make it worth your time and money. The conversation only gets deeper, weirder and more controversial in that private hour! How could it not the way things are going?

1:13:08 But the best way to sign up is at TheHigherSideChats.com, where new first-time subscribers always get a free 7 day trial because I'm just that confident! There's no PayPal on the website but if you need to use PayPal then sign up through Patreon and you get all of the same episodes Our website is a credit or debit system, but you can also scope out the other options like a few various cryptos. Cash or check mailed to the P.O box and I'll even barter with most people if you have your own business and produce something nice that my wife or kid or taste buds might like But the architects of consensus reality have made it clear that these themes and topics aren't really welcome on the main stage. And so this is how we secure a little counterculture corner for ourselves, and I hope you'll join PLUS because that's the only way it works!

1:13:56 Besides, you can cancel any time right on your profile page. The most common concern I hear is people just being unsure if THC Plus will work with their podcast app and the answer is probably yes! But if not we have several high-level app recommendations for whatever phone you use and the website is made for mobile too We're trained to tip a waitress for bringing us a sandwich, but that tip doesn't give you access to a second sandwich. Really I'm not asking for any more than that and think I offer better service. Come get your second serving of tasty conspiracy goodness in exchange for that small token of your appreciation. Beyond that let it also be known we have grown and survived as long as we have by word-of-mouth

1:14:39 I don't care so much about social media likes or follows, but tell the right people about THC. And not just listeners but the high level figures who are better suited to sit down with me than most other hosts. And if you can help me with any of these things, I can work to bring you better shows which is just a win-win for both us! Informative, entertaining and action packed It also never hurts to thank a guest you liked if you have the time either. We want them to know people are listening so they're willing to come back down the road too! Thank YOU for spending some time with me and cheers to a better tomorrow!