Dr. Kelly Brogan | Full Spectrum Health, Conspiracy Parenting, & Your Metaphysical Narrative

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00:58 There's clearly maybe something there beyond the realm of man And until we've thoroughly tested every last close-chested view I find, the more we think we know The less we will Where would be without THC? Cause' we know they're lying to us baby Just don't know to what degree Without THC The higher side chats show great Carl Lewden

01:41 Rock me like a hurricane people from the sunshine state I'm Greg Carlwood and we know the awakening process can be damn near addicting who doesn't love a drip of dopamine from each new mind-blowing realization or an energetic charge from a freshly questioned assumption though for a lot of us these exciting aspects might come peppered throughout stages of dread, paranoia, deep anger and a wide range of other negative emotions that naturally crop up when learning about the vast damage-causing behaviors baked right into our culture. The multitude of manipulations in the never ending vectors for toxicity but eventually it should drive us to feel more self empowered and competent in navigating a very tricky reality

02:23 Because in a fallen world of fake science, mass mind control and manipulated dishonest data there is very little you can trust outside of your own discernment and intuition. And really that's probably enough! Well this is just a small handful of the things I've picked up from the many hours spent listening to Dr. Kelly Brogan discuss the way reality really works and challenge all her own previously held assumptions from germ theory in the globe, to self-healing and manifestation? If you're unfamiliar, Dr. Brogan is a holistic psychiatrist and New York Times bestselling author of titles like A Mind Of Your Own The Truth About Depression And How Women Can Heal Their Bodies And Reclaim Their Lives

03:01 Own yourself, the surprising path beyond depression anxiety and fatigue to reclaiming your authenticity vitality and freedom. And the reclaimed woman love your shadow embody your feminine gifts and experience the specific pleasure of who you are She completed her psychiatric training and fellowship at NYU Medical Center after graduating from Cornell University Medical College and has a degree from MIT in systems neuroscience She is also the co-editor of the landmark textbook, Integrative Therapies for Depression as well as the founder of the online healing program Vital Mind Reset and the membership community vital life project and the host of The Reclamation Radio Podcast.

03:43 During the COVID years, I learned about her as one of the infamous disinformation dozen alongside some of the wisest people I could find at the time and I'm lucky to have her here now. The alternative health educator provocateur big pharma critic and original reclaimed woman Dr. Kelly Brogan welcome to The Higher Side It's such a pleasure to be here. Thank you. Yeah, I'm psyched for this thanks for doing it! I obviously wrote that intro largely about the psychology of conspiracy awakening let's say which i consider to be a big part of the value I've gotten from listening to you, but also how that meshes with male and female dynamics and cycles of trauma and parenting even as well as taking ownership and responsibility for our success and happiness. All sorts of good stuff

04:31 But I'm sure you understand as well as anyone that it's hard to be an awakened truth seeker and not fall into negative thought patterns when we see so many things are backwards and toxic. Yet our mental and inner state seems to be the most important aspect to health, so it almost sounds like a catch-22, ya know? Yes! You've nailed it! It only took me 15 years to come to that dilemma, that crossroads where I had the opportunity probably even beginning a few years ago. To consider the yield right? Like what is the point? What am I actually getting out of this?

05:12 This true thing, this awareness. This experience of reality that has paradigmatically shifted from what I thought it was to now what I'm so certain it is and everybody needs to know right? So the exquisite pain of living in an unshared reality that most of us experience when we learn a different story about what is and we set about recruiting Right? Like new members of our reality. And I was just thinking this morning about you know, how the balance between the superiority that seems to attend truthing. Right? And we could go into all the rescuer archetypes that get activated when, you know, we think that we have figured it out and crack the code of everything and we know what's behind the veil. There is typically a sense of superiority particularly over those who don't yet know

06:12 Right? So we use slurs like sheep or whatever. Yeah, but it's also typically a sense of superiority over your past self right like over your former iterations and that superiority lives alongside without any contact the part of you that believes you're worthless broken Damaged piece of shit, right? Because most of us have that installed as a police I mean it would like to say everyone but at least it's most of us Have an experience of a part of us that holds that belief. I would wager that as a psychiatrist I specialized in working with women who have the most contact and

06:53 with that part. Relative to a professional like me on the other side of the desk, it took me many years to make contact with the part of me that is holding the belief I'm broken damaged crazy right? So when your superiority and your brokenness have no dialogue There is a lot of fragmentation that happens and a lot of you know What the psychologists call projection a lot of this experience? Of these parts of yourself on the outside that you dance with right you get into relationship with and I was just thinking this morning how Humility, it's like the only way out Right good. And some of us get humbled You know by our life experiences some of us through

07:38 various modalities like Plai Medicine, etc. But the access to an experience of deep humility is the blend of those two parts and bridge between them over again in my certainty because I'm a big You know, mental gal. I love thinking. I love ideas. I love figuring things out. It's the perfect escape from this like the burden of this human vessel right? And over and over and over again, I have come to hold lightly what I was formerly so certain about to the point where you know when I have

08:19 private conversations with my esteemed colleagues, you know like my friend and mentor Tom Cowan for example. You know we mostly just acknowledge that we just really don't know like pretty much anything yes Yes Yeah, you kind of have to sometimes but great point that conspiracy thinking can lead you to not only a victim mentality but also a savior complex the kind of paradox in its own way, but I think for me, I have a maybe a habit of continuing to invest in friendships that don't really serve me or. I mean, I love my friendships but maybe they just come with a lot of judgment about my alternative takes especially when you start entering into everybody having kids and you're doing one thing and they're doing a different thing it starts to matter at time like COVID makes it matter if you have a mainstream or alternative mindset

09:09 And, you know as a friend and colleague of mine Gordon White who the audience will know well but he referenced to you when we were talking about this in a quote of yours that it's like trying to buy eggs at the hardware store. We're probably not going to get the nourishment we're looking for by expecting our dynamics with certain people to change. As a psychiatrist I'm curious what you consider a healthy way to deal with feelings like this notion that a lot of our relationships might come with this huge caveat that we're living in vastly different paradigms when it comes to our understandings of health, reality and pretty much everything. I love this question and I think this is really where the rubber meets the road because in my sort of darker

09:55 quiet moments that began in around 2020, where I started to really look at my own activist impulse. Right? My angry righteous bitch energy that just flared around all of this like, I told you so! You know, energy that I brought to family and friends and of course the bigger stage. And... The actual relationships in your real life are Enough work for most of us that we don't have to really concern ourselves with the anonymous victim Overseas or down the street or in my case it was almost always you know mothers and their children and Really trying to insert myself in the decision-making around births and pediatrics And then, of course You know The care of the mom and her mental and emotional well being like I got to the point where I felt like if they didn't have the information that I had

10:50 Something very bad would happen. Yeah, like the certainty that I know what their journey is the hubris right and the The self aggrandizement that really comes with that and I started to neglect my as I would argue most angry activists do, my actual life. My own children. Okay? My actual family and the invitation that every conflict in every real relationship that I had was offering which is to look inside of myself to relate to the feelings that were coming up right so

11:31 I sometimes joke that the only spiritual practice I need, and I talk about this in my last book The Reclaimed Woman is to enter through the upset. Right? Which is the ultimate record scratch especially for women which is simply prioritize your emotional state and take 60-90 seconds every time you feel upset about email or cataclysm in your life to prioritize being with yourself, simply being with yourself. And you know if it's relevant I can talk about like what that actually looks like but that reprioritization of the inner gaze let's say is actually the pattern disruptor all the conditioning, the caretaking, you know, the savior complex, the micromanagement, the externalization of focus out there

12:24 on what everybody else is doing wrong so that you can fundamentally avoid what is asking for your attention inside. So, I also think that there are stages right? So as we come to individuate this arc of the hero or heroine's journey. As we come to understand our I am, right? Like who it is that we are as individuals separate from our family legacies, separate from our programs whether they're societal or parental. As we come to understand this... It probably should have happened around adolescence but for many of us it happens in our late 30s 40s

13:07 In this process, there is usually a big no. There is a rupture that exposes your difference from that which you were enmeshed with with, right? So how this usually would show up in my clinical practice was with the medical system. Right? So you've been a good patient, you've taken your meds, you've adopted your diagnosis, you have done everything that they told you to do and then one day you experience let's say a side effect that's so significant and severe it is dismissed or you're gaslit about it or whatever it might be and you start to develop the awareness

13:45 that they don't care about you the way you care about you, okay? And that they may have very different priorities. Different incentives, different motivations and that rupture of empathy as it's called is typically the beginning of a journey and in the end, a gift right? It's the design of your arc And that rupture begins the process of that boundary, right? No. It's a no usually for many of us It requires years, I mean many years where you hold that boundary strong. And what do you do during that time? You find your chosen family right? You find your tribe, you find your like-minded and like hearted companions to walk with you, to give you that sense of belonging that your actual family maybe once did or never did in your belief system should or whatever

14:42 And you create very strong boundaries. So there were many years, probably 15 years of my own life where I didn't interact with somebody who might consider vaccination for example. I didn't interact with people who engaged pharma. It's gotta be hard to do! It wasn't hard at all. It was just the nature of that attractive, resonant field. I was in a total silo with other like-minded people and of course I do this for a living so I was able to create online community of people who agreed with my ethos around personal responsibility and natural medicine

15:22 There were many years that I just dismissed the rest of the world and probably if I'm honest dehumanized and you know in my In my inner world imagine myself superior as I was saying, but over time as you mature You legitimize around your core sense of self And it's okay to interact with others who don't share your belief system because you know what yours is, you're crystallized and it's not so much of a threat. That's why most people like I just had Byron Katie on my own podcast and she is one of many who've done a lot of inner work to come to the conclusion that boundaries really aren't necessary actually right? They're not necessary later on that know doesn't need to be a stiff arm

16:16 It can simply be that's not for me. Yeah, you almost say the boundaries are kind of like a training wheel to get you to a place where you can almost put them down and it's effortless to Protect yourself or if even if you that's probably not in wait right way to express it but you know, it's not so important that everyone checks every box on the list and That's kind of where I'm up two minds because I really don't care what my friends think about 9-11 Or a lot of other things If we enjoy each other's company and have shared history, and we have fun golfing together. Who cares? But I also think that our opinions are thoughts on these things are going to matter more not less as we go into

16:59 technocracy, World War III potentially. It's going to matter more your behaviors and your thoughts how they determine your actions and I don't know so i am of two minds about it but you mentioned Dr Tom Cowan and I did want to talk about your podcast The stuff I've gotten from the doctors that are in the Brogan sphere, we could say. And Tom Cowen's definitely one of them. Joe Dispens is another one and this is an area where Synchronicity came into booking this interview because I've been deaf in my right ear since I was three they said it was meningitis maybe it was maybe it was vaccine damage. I was three you know who knows?

17:37 It's not really a problem, but it has always felt like an unfixable part of my incarnation. Well, a listener wrote me and said hey dude if you want to pursue healing you gotta invest in Dr Joe Dispenses Rich Treats because miracles happen there And then sure enough the most recent interview he had at the time was with you where he talks about those miracles reversing stage 4 cancer repairing one's own thyroid function and he told a story of a woman who who had nine inches of her rectum and colon surgically removed because of cancer, and then she re-grew all that tissue back and reversed the damage with his protocol of belief in meditation. And that one really stretches even

18:22 what I would think could be possible, but can you talk to us about his process or how this process could even work? What you get out of this work because clearly you wouldn't interview him if he didn't think that it had a lot of merit. But it's pretty out there. Absolutely. He reminds me in a lot of ways of my mentor. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Dr Nicholas Gonzalez, uh, but in the last year of his life now. Okay. So, uh, he is, um, I believe one of the most important figures in modern medicine, and he tragically passed in 2015. And I had the opportunity to work with him and to be mentored by him in the last year of his life. And it fundamentally changed my life to this day. I feel his energy and presence and his deep faith

19:13 in the human body. His outcomes over 27 years, he was a pedigreed medical doctor and his outcomes over his career have yet to be matched in published medical literature and these include long-term multi decade like over 30 year survival of stage four pancreatic cancer for example He had outcomes in terminal cancers, but also neurodegenerative illnesses. And he was very invested in long-term evidence for his protocol which was fundamentally focused on autonomic nervous system rebalancing through nutrition and specific targeted supplementation. And we talked a bit about this although

20:02 The field, the zeitgeist now I think holds the reality of what he was doing far better than it could have 10 years ago if that makes sense. Right? Like the belief field that his patients entered, that I entered as you know his mentee was so powerful That it, it offered possibilities that didn't formerly exist. And he used to say to me that fear was contagious but faith is not right? That faith has to be born of an inner experience of reconnection with God and you know, he was a Christian man actually and had very nuanced deep

20:50 complex, I would say experience of his own theology and the faith that he brought ignited that within me. And the outcomes that I went on to publish and that I experienced through my own protocol which he helped me to design can only be explained through the power of that faith because otherwise there's nothing... It's like a little detox, a little diet everybody has already heard What's the deal? But it's a field of belief that you enter. And if you are resonant with that field, something unlocks within you." Joe Dispenza speaks similarly about the role of belief and

21:36 the invocation of emotional states that can come through these sort of, this is my language but like self-incantations of statements and ideas and thoughts. And I would imagine that in...I actually am going myself to one of his retreats to experience it But I imagine that in these large groups, there is an opening of a portal for better or worse. I don't know if you're familiar with Dr. Lynn McTaggart but she has the power of eight and so yes like her whole thing is taking this structure of belief and then applying it to kind of a group of eight people which she thinks the data shows as a good number

22:25 And then you actually get the residual effect, the bounce back effect of just wishing for healing for someone else. It's an interesting mechanism. Yeah. Yeah it's the interpersonal and relational extension decades of placebo and nocebo research that I love to talk about especially with regard to psychiatry because it's in my opinion undeniable and there are experts like Irving Kirsch who have written books about you know, what we what we can understand as the primary driver of medical outcomes But he specifically focuses on antidepressants

23:03 as being the belief that this medication is going to work. And of course I heard of the placebo effect in medical school, but it was really just sort of brushed off as like a statistical nuisance that you had to control for when you were designing an experiment and of course when people get excited about their treatment good things happen but its so much more significant a driver of what we are seeing as outcomes attributed to the medical intervention, the pharmaceutical that you just extrapolate the isolation of the placebo effect, which is arguably what dispenser is doing and operationalizing. And you can see that even more extraordinary outcomes than would be available through the this intervention or this surgery, you know, is going to manage your symptoms expectation. Right? So now people go to his retreats and they expect seemingly permanent

24:01 medical liabilities or physiologic impairments, they expect to resolve those. The whole frame is an expanded version of what is even offered. It's even for sale through the pharmaceutical model and you don't really need to go much beyond the placebo effect to understand how that might be possible but you have to legitimize it and depreciate the role of the placebo effect and how well documented its power is. If you want to stay in the quote-unquote science chat about this, but if you want to get into the more spiritual realm of accessing different versions of yourself or different templates and resonant

24:43 organization of your electrical body, right? Like we also talk about it through that lens. But I'm not really sure it matters if people are having these experiences and only takes one anomaly is all that it should take to disrupt a previously held dogma around what is wrong. I agree. And that feedback loop is really interesting in the interview you had with Dr Dispensa, he said that a lot of the first step is to build up that belief and if people even come to a retreat but they still can't really get there mentally, he just shows them the data over and over again until they do believe now that

25:22 is really interesting because, and you use the term incantations. I love that. I actually have talked to a lot of occultists and magic practitioners in previous episodes, and they say the same kind of thing that the theatrics and the drama around the candles and the robes and the pentagram, the pentagram might be some different, but the robes and the candles and the knives into this and that, and the flowery language That is just designed to get your mind in the mode of creating change. And I just find it interesting, different subcultures totally separate fields of study but the mechanisms are there that are similar to get you into the mindset now this is where what you're saying and the power belief to me

26:04 is where I have to do some soul searching. And it goes back to the things I said in the intro, because I do consider myself a happy well-balanced person and that's despite all the conspiracy rabbit holes that i'm constantly engaging with and just interested in But when it comes to like the data, you know Joe shows people the data until they believe the data I'm looking at is that EMFs are terrible and glyphosate's killing us. And blue light is killing us am I building up a negative belief structure because I think that the whole world is toxic? Where do we draw the line between the actual results? Like I think we're on the same page with a lot of things we would put in the toxic category

26:48 But am I better off just with the ignorance is bliss attitude and believing that it doesn't hurt me? Because I have friends where I'm like, man. I wish I had the stress-free ignorant life that you have because You know It's all about belief apparently fundamentally so should I even look at this data how do we balance those two things This is what this is one of the most important questions there is. And you know who humbled me around this topic, is my own daughters because there was a day maybe it was like three or four years ago I'm not sure around a big life transition for me and coming out of whatever pandemic window and my youngest daughter who was like a tween at the time

27:36 She said to me, mama you're afraid of so many things. And here I am like, I'm like fucking Joan of Arc or something right? Like put on this earth to do this sacred work as a intellectual warrior whatever archetype I thought I was tapping into but what her animal body is feeling is that I'm actually quite afraid and that was the correction You know, my, my especially my youngest is such a guru for me. And that was the correction that I needed to begin to question

28:16 What it was that I was actually doing and why, and whether or not the impact. At least at this stage for me and I can only, you know, everybody's I'm glad everybody is in their lane doing their thing right? Like for me personally, I had come to the end of the whistle blowing sounding the alarm, you know, screaming from the mountain tops about all of the dangerous things out there road. And the reason that I did was because I started to see that I was passing the hot potato of fear and specifically around things like 5G and EMF's. And at that time, I no longer believed in satellites and that kind of a thing so it's not...I already disabused myself of some of the other big things that are you cannot control

29:06 that are out there. Chemtrails is another big one, right? They're just out there happening to you and you wake up in what state? Powerless, dependent, helpless and afraid." Well that's exactly the state I thought I was leaving when I exited The Matrix so-to-speak, right? Right. So what have I actually accomplished or have I fallen into yet another layer. I have colleagues who believe that 5G is a psyop, the whole thing and that the literature is seeded with scary information about how dangerous it is and it's not even happening so I'm not suggesting that that's true because I don't know

29:47 I just love to question and then question again, and then question again. Because it's usually a couple of times of questioning right? Like how sure am I that mercury is safe? Well how sure am i that it's actually toxic? How sure am I that it doesn't have very specific role that threads the needle between the two right like for example And I've come to engage in this repeated line of inquiry and it has served to relax my system.

30:25 So that I can get to the place where I once again train my focus on what is in my control and on what feels empowering and what feels pleasurable. Okay? So when I trained, my focus on those things, I removed it from stuff happening out there including the news. You know like I was once somebody that people turned to for interpretation of what was going on in the world I'm not that person anymore. You know, you're not going to... nobody's gonna come to my channels to find out how to feel about the Middle East okay? Because i have withdrawn all of my attention from everything out there that is happening and

31:11 I've radically focused on my inner hygiene, right? I've radically focused on getting right with myself and orienting my belief system around my innate God-given vital power that is very easily tampered with and compromised through these fear based belief fields. And I'm not suggesting that they aren't real I turn my wifi off every night. We're talking on an ethernet cord, okay? So it's not that like I've moved away from it but in all of these arenas whether its food or tech or chemical toxicity um...I have softened

31:50 And that is the arc of the know that I referenced before. What does this softening mean? Does it mean, I just stopped giving a shit? No, it means that I use my own body as a yes and no compass. I rely on myself to determine the importance and to give significance to what it is that is actually relevant to me, to my life, to my children's lives. And you don't have to know you know, much more beyond Emoto or Veda Austin's work to know that this is the most powerful way for you to impact the waters of your body. For you to dialogue with God inside of you right? Is to rest in a state of all the things anyone has ever been telling us gratitude ease acceptance

32:46 and the deep knowing that all is okay. Yes, no? And then the next step will become clear and it's really because of Veda's work that I have come to commit to this kind of emotional self-mastery because it strikes me that harmonizing the gels of my water inside my body is the most powerful way to support my own health, even if there's all sorts of shitty stuff going on around me. Her work has I think really in many important ways

33:27 Validated that right on right on all good information, and I'm glad you kind of touched on the parenting thing I was gonna bring this up. I don't like to make the show about me personally I like it to be broad applicable advice to everyone I don't know how many parents are out there But a lot of us will become parents eventually but when it comes to parenting I have a one-and-a-half year old boy and at three and a half year old girl yes, and I let my kids play and climb in ways that would make a lot of other lame parents very nervous. You know, the helicopter parents, the overly protective parents you know? I'm not like that except when it comes to the toxic stuff! Stop drinking out of plastic cups

34:10 You can't have processed foods. Get away from my phone, don't drink that water at a park. Don't drink that water coming from a lead pipe! We do so much work at home to have good quality water and I see myself almost just a few years down the line being like a conspiratorial agoraphobic, you know? Like I'm almost making my kids afraid of the world but not in the way conventional people would but in the way an alternative person would. And I don't want to do that so I'm glad you touched on that it's hard to let go when you want your kids avoid all toxins But the best medicine for me is just looking at how I was raised

34:55 and how toxic that environment was, and it's just out of ignorance. It's the late 80s and 90s you know? That's when all this stuff was put out! And I'm pretty much fine...and i only started avoiding stuff at 35 years old so maybe I can chill on my three-year-old but I did want to ask you this. So, I know a lot of your clients are women and I have this three-year old daughter and I know a lot of patterns and problems start young what are some of the biggest reoccurring problems that you see women dealing with where maybe a dad could help or upbringing could help so at least i'm not contributing to creating damaged

35:33 Women unintentionally. Yeah, wow such a deep question I mean we could do an entire weekend workshop on the parenting bit because I'm so passionate about this subject and I again have come to some extremely humbling conclusions about how my best intentions to be a cycle breaker were simply a greenwashed version of the control and authoritarian parenting that most of us grew up with. I was kid in the 70s and 80s,

36:11 We only knew you know listen to authority punishment reward and I was pushed like so many women in my generation To succeed and achieve and never need a man right? So to become that feminist prize and My Daughters have inspired me just in time, like just as they became tweens and teens because I was an absolute food Nazi. I was not a helicopter parent and in fact if you research emotionally immature parenting

36:47 trends and patterns, you'll find that usually we are very fixated on physical like health let's say. Um, but very unavailable emotionally. Right? So I committed early on to never scream at my kids. I've never punished my kids. It wasn't like that, but I would hyper fixate on the supplements in their smoothie and their perfect diet. My kids never ever one time ever in their childhood went to a birthday party and eat the fricking pizza and cake Never one time when my eldest I tell his story in my book. She was probably four and a half or five. And we went trick-or-treating, and I used to collect all the garbage candy and replace it with like organic alternatives or whatever. And I thought that she had eaten bite size Snickers while we were walking because I looked in her little bucket and I didn't see it but I saw her collect it from one of the doors. And I don't have to yell

37:48 to be scary. Yeah, neither does my wife. It's strange skill that I've cultivated and I made her cry because I accused her and gaslit her around eating the stupid Snickers which we later found which she did not eat. And I will never forget that becoming the monster that I was supposedly fighting The question that I invite a lot of parents to ask as they, as they intend to keep their children physically safe is does this read as love? Right. Does it feel like love because one day recently one of my daughters said to me because you know the last vestige for me has been the tech stuff right so i still to this day struggle with

38:48 having left the Waldorf system and whatever, you know with a generation because my kids are teenagers now but with a generation of kids who have a different relationship to technology than then I did. You know simply it's the difference that I struggle with and Anyway, so she said so I used to set this really firm boundary like nine o'clock I call it tech surrender like all the tech is going and gone and And I used to enforce that pretty intensely. It was like the last thing to go and one day my daughter was like, mama it's so much more helpful if you... Yeah cause she's 13 at this point If you guide me? She said that word guide me and then let me figure it out Interesting yeah I feel like that's something my three-year old would already say to me The tech is gonna be the hardest! I don't know what age that would make the most

39:40 sense, however I do believe in the Steinarian concept of the nine year change as being like a pretty significant you know individuation point. And I know that's when I used to… so my kids chose to go to school against my will. They had a year home with me and I guess they didn't make it cool enough now, I think the bigger issue is that I didn't have enough same-aged or similar age community to make it appealing to tweens and teens anyway whatever they chose to go back to school and I used to institute this thing called Kelly School. It was like two hours a month that I would sit them down and I would have an hour to offer them another perspective about cosmology or health, sometimes I would teach them kinesiology and muscle testing or whatever simple stuff how to ask for things manifestation perhaps yeah exactly so i just had an hour now come up with my little things gonna show them

40:42 Ultimately, I was called out on that because I've raised my girls to ally with their yes and their no and to not do things that they don't want to do. And my youngest was like you say that but then I don't wanna do this or you are making me do this or you get upset about it and then it's about your feelings. Oh, wow. Here I am repeating the cycle in my own greenwash way." So I surrendered that and I have come to recognize that if I want to share something first of all, I set a container. I ask for the opportunity to do that or if I just want to say like hey don't drink the tap water,

41:22 I'll attempt to do it in a way that is invitational. Like for example, it is extremely important to me –I'm like a natural birth zealot and it's been one of the topics that has been very difficult for me to integrate that superiority sense of like there's a better way and worse way to do it according to me and you know, with free birth on one end of the spectrum and you know, an elective cesarean on the other or whatever. And I am still like…I'll see a baby swaddled in a hospital blanket and my heart shuts closed."

42:00 You know, it's still to this day something that I am exploring. Anyway so when I think about my daughters and the births that they're going to have and I think about you know the prospect of their choosing to have a medicalized birth… literally I like want to explode. I can't hold it yet. Okay, so I know that that's a lot of polarity. I'm creating and if I come at them with all the scary reasons Why they should never have a hospital birth which I mean III have expertise in the scary reasons I've published you know articles on all the Scary horrible things that can happen to you if you elect

42:44 to engage obstetrical interventions that are certainly not evidence-based that our consensus medicine and that have nothing but physiologic psychological and emotional Injury to confer. Okay, so I can I can scare people out of going to the hospital for sure And I know that's not the way why because I know that the invitation That the inspiration that All I have to do, which of course is what I have done even talking about their own births is to express the extraordinary opportunity that natural birth presents and why. You know? It is this life-giving, life changing portal

43:28 that is inbuilt into a woman's system for her to experience, you know, her connection to God and the life force in a way that cannot ever be replicated or even touched in any other arena of her life. And what it is to connect to your baby in that way, to start life in that way, recognize, you know the um, the perfection of the design of every aspect. Of the birth experience or whatever I could go on and on. Well let me just cut into say you say that and I agree like this is the thing my wife agrees to even in her friend group they're all having kids around the same time she's going the natural way no one else is they're all like why are you putting yourself through more pain? Why you know what you know the conventional things you hear all the time well

44:21 This is where the alternative really kind of let us down. The first kid was born in a birthing center because of an elevated heart rate, it turned into an emergency C-section—the last thing my wife wanted—she was pissed about it you know? And then it turns out that all these concerns we had about her not being able to bond or my daughter's immune system There really was no effects that we can measure. Of course, you can't measure the reality against a potential hypothetical and what would have happened but as far with our critical eye we see no ill effects then when our son was born about two years later she's like fuck that birth center I'm having this kid at home because they are the ones who got us into the system so she's like iIm doing this at home

45:06 She ignored warning signs of preeclampsia from the doctors. She signed waivers that said, you know I don't care that my blood pressure is above a certain level. I'm doing this at home. She had our son and then less than a minute later had a seizure in our bed and so I'm strapping a one-minute old baby into a car seat and following an ambulance down to the hospital because my wife's almost dying So, you know I feel a little betrayed by the alternative. It was really rosy and you know maybe we romanticized it but man was it tough and I had Christian Northrup on the podcast and were reading books about orgasmic birth. I'm like not only is this not going to hurt

45:53 Baby, we're gonna have a great time and instead she almost dies and in both cases You know I guess she she feels like she got her natural birth But you know in both cases. I'm the one who had to see what she was unconscious for which was the hardest fucking part? You know so is It's hard to hate the medical system and also get sucked into this shit. Exactly, that tension is absolutely the hardest road to walk what you all have been through and I wonder when she's not here to get her perspective, but I wonder what her ultimate take is and if she feels like oh wow. I wish I had listened you know and had stayed the obstetrical course and had my hospital birth a second time or if she accepts everything yeah the latter for sure. She doesn't have any regrets but yeah exactly it's kind of what I figured so

46:49 So then it comes down to you and your role, which is what you asked me originally in the question before I went on a big ramble about the role that men can play in, I would say generally women's lives but specifically in their daughters' lives and maybe by extension, their wives. And as somebody who had a very biased sort of I guess, with the women in my practice. And and I was a reproductive psychiatrist so most of my patients would go through the pregnancy experience at some point in our work together and I really didn't have any idea how to interact at the time with their partners. Their partners – their husbands typically were quite disoriented like around

47:45 Like, what are they supposed to be doing here? Right. Like who who are they serving or who are they supporting like What is their role and I actually am of the sort of like cultural belief that it's pretty unnatural for the man to be the other person in the room relative to a bunch of other family you know, blood related females. Um, and can we or midwives with a lot of experience? Yeah. I mean, I, I think that we are historically we have whatever that means historically. Uh, but we have had women other women around to support the process and like you said, experienced women meaning that they have experienced their own births not necessarily that they have licensure as you know, conferred by the government or whatever. Um, and

48:34 I, I believe that men are pretty ill equipped to hold space and to contain because they haven't ever been told that that's their role. Right? Okay. So like if your woman says, I want to have a natural birth you could argue or what I could argue that your role is to make sure that happens even when she doubts herself, even when it seems, you know, like uh, It's a scary thing that she is wanting to do, right? To support her vision in every way that you know how which it sounds like is exactly what you did and just stay

49:16 non-reactive, right? Like cool calm and collected. Well how do you do that as a man right this is the way bigger question that we have on the societal level is How do we support men in their emotional self regulation because a man's emotional self regulation resolves pretty much every societal problem that we have. Whether it's, you know violence and crime or it's domestic abuse and issues or whether it's just the relational strife that women seem to be complaining of and calling every man a narcissist these days right? So a man's emotional self-regulation is one of several

50:02 Linchpins that I can identify. Um, women no longer imagining that they know better how another woman should be a woman is another one right? Like there's certain things that I've observed that could change the fabric of social reality as we know it overnight And of course men can't learn to self-regulate overnight, but that commitment that prioritization. What does that actually look like? What does that mean that they need right how do they do that I don't know actually But I have observed That men who co-regulate around other men Right so whether it's in the martial arts setting or you know other forms of of

50:41 meditation and Vipassana and self containment and self regulation. However, men can get to the place where your body, your physical body being in a room with other men, women, and children offers regulation through stillness right? Through your calm heartbeat Right. These aren't things you can just want, these are, this is a reclamation of your nervous system that is necessary and it also means that you're no longer going to make decisions from that reactive place. Right? Like I can't remember whoever gave me this example but I love it because it's like if a man who just starts to learn how to fight

51:31 goes into a bar, let's say. And somebody gives him like sideways look like he may even want to provoke the fight to practice and demonstrate his prowess or whatever but as seasoned martial artist might be in the same situation and he would just cast a glance back and the person who might have been otherwise provoking him would walk out the door right so that kind of embodied, energetic masculinity is something that comes through mentorship. It comes through group-based the natural phenomenon of women working with women and men working with men and it comes from the prioritization by a society and culture that says we're interested in

52:28 In restoring and then expanding upon the potential of polarity, no longer like punishing and victimizing and shaming men for their behavior. Blaming them for the ills of society and imagining that somehow women are just these hapless victims of what it is that we've been experiencing for centuries, millennia or whatever history timeline you choose to to take a look at. So, you know, to my mind the role of the father specifically when it comes to daughters but he could extrapolate is too offer safety. Yeah and I think that makes a lot of sense and I try to interpret explosive emotional outbursts somewhat as like what you're trying to say is you don't feel like you have control right now and maybe you don't, you know? You don't get control all the time and I struggle with

53:27 Is this issue right here because you're three or because you're a volatile female, or because your astrology suggests are going to have this kind of personality. Like there's all kinds of factors in the soup of what makes a person and so sometimes I'm like should I just wait two years and this'll go away? Or do I correct it now did not create a pattern. You know, I definitely overthink just like with the toxicity stuff but yeah, I think, I think you're right they say is just Um, maybe let them feel emotionally safe. I like to think that is true but you know, maybe with all my paranoia about the world around her she feels like she can't extract as much control as she would like. There's a rubric that's really helpful to me and has been over the course of my mothering journey and it is different. You know fathers and mothers are very different.

54:20 Entities has been to consider the mirror, right? Like that whatever it is that your kid is making you feel quote unquote. Is exactly what they are feeling. Right. So, so you feel frustrated, exasperated like at the end of your roof or whatever that now, you know exactly what they're feeling and you can give words to that, right? Like you can say simple phrases like you're upset, you're upset Right? You can get down on their eye level and you can offer, you know, attunement. So this concept of attunement is what most of us, at least in my generation were missing from our fathers which is the capacity that a man has to read his own system for clues about what it is that he's seeing

55:16 Right? So he can then offer what is needed to what's in front of him. You can't offer in an attuned way if you're having – if you're just a shitstorm inside and you can't even observe what's in front of you, so the attuned man notices body language. He notices, you know, subtle You know eyelid movement in his kit he notices things and he has the capacity to Offer his system again, whether it's a hug or hand on a shoulder Or just a gaze just getting on on the level whatever it is quiet Quietly allowing for the arc of an emotion emotions always have an arc

56:05 to move through, right? Before he starts yapping. Yeah. Okay. Guilty of that. No we all are because we were not well regulated and attuned to as kids right so this is the legacy emotional legacy of immature parenting uh immature emotionally mature parenting right so that is a form of safety but it also gets broader and wider because a daughter wants to know that her father is protector, right? She wants to know that he has a monster in him. Right this is the dark masculine that is usually castrated out of men by their wounded and injured mothers That's why she likes Beauty and Beast so much Exactly exactly

56:53 I haven't read fiction in like 15 years because I've been an obsessive, you know, learner or whatever. And my daughter's really into A Court of Thorns and Roses so I actually decided to start reading the series with her and it's like a fiction series about It's kind of like fairy smut actually, but it's about fairies. I am so fascinated by the male archetypes that are in this fiction because it's all about how they relate to that yang energy, that dark masculine energy and how these men embody it differently and the reclamation of that dark masculine energy which is the aggressor. Right? It also includes your sexual claim and capacity to assert that, okay?

57:38 is, is the, is the, the breaking of a cycle. Of abuse that is handed down by mothers to sons specifically right? It's the emotional incest that so many young boys experience when they imagine and it's their job to emotionally regulate their mother rather than learn to develop a relationship with their own healthy aggression. And some would argue though, that starts first time a baby infant boy bites his mom's nipple And she says, don't do that to you. You hurt me! Right? Like instead of mirroring his aggression and offering him validation of that and maybe another putting her finger in his mouth or whatever instead he can bite on it, whatever might be an alternative expression. So as men come to develop a relationship with this monster right here with this wildness inside of them

58:32 They can point it out towards the world, right? They can direct it against anything. Right and they could create a safe home for that family that is the protector archetype but when that monster energy gets turned even a little bit indoors towards especially a daughter right in the form of punishment or abuse of any variety be it verbal physical sexual Then there is a lot of confusion for that woman to unwind and a degree of unsafety that she will experience navigating the world. And this is my specialty, right? So then I show up on the scene to support women in cultivating that safety within

59:22 On a nervous system level and then on a relational level because otherwise you're just gonna keep searching for it Like a little girl, honestly on the outside in your relationships with the impossible Dynamic that reminds you of that unsafety hoping praying that one day. That man will be give you that exhale. And of course he's not, those relationships can't possibly offer that to you right? So how it is that you can choose a man who has the capacity to offer you that safety that requires that you reorient your nervous system towards the perception of the accurate perception of safety and uh and so it really is

1:00:03 like legacy level, um unwinding of these handed down experiences of trauma that I see so many of us in the midst of right now. It's a pretty cool time you know to be entering into relationships with this degree of awareness and choice. Yeah yeah really good advice! I definitely will think about that in the times where it's tough to think about anything and not just react but So much stuff for me to think about. This is really was a conspiracy podcast host therapy session, so I appreciate it as we are wrapping up tell people about the books, the courses all that good stuff, the links they need if they want more Kelly Brogan in their lives. Thank you. I love this conversation and your questions are so

1:00:53 So thoughtful and really almost lifted from my own mind, you know things that I've considered deeply along my own journey. Speaking of my journey it's been a 15 year process of studying the hero or heroine's journey and seeing the stages and I have really collected that into two programs, one for nervous system healing which I've referenced called vital mind reset to send that signal of safety and the other for relational healing. Uh, for women that is called reclaimed and really helping women to recognize the power that they have in their marriages as mothers and around their careers to come into a feminine kind of power. That isn't what we are instructed about on the world stage of feminist programming

1:01:44 And I have these together as what I call the relaxed woman system because I've decided that is the crown jewel of a woman's experience, to come into a relaxed And I know that when I am around relaxed women, I feel so much more aware of the sparkle and glitter and potential and beauty and magic of this incarnation than I do when I'm around tense, bitter overwhelmed overachieving women who are in their scarcity. And control based responses. So it's aspirational for all of us to get to that place.

1:02:24 So yeah, that's all over at Kelly Brogan empty.com awesome. Well I enjoyed this a lot. I know I request a lot of time thanks for taking me up on it and keep doing what you do and take care. Thank you so much. And boom goes the dynamite people, the great and ever talented Dr. Kelly Brogan. Oh, I told myself I wouldn't cry, but I guess Roman's birth is just harder for me to talk about than I realized, but I think about it plenty, just saying it out loud. I guess kind of knocked me off my game for a minute, but the show must go on with those kinds of situations you want to just trust the universe and say, well this is a natural process that doesn't need the hospital system, but neither birth in our family really went that way and even after being super vigilant with diet and exercise and everything, the natural home birth books say

1:03:25 It all felt like a waste of time because of the issues that came up in labor and delivery. It's like nine months of putting so much extra energy into optimizing the growth of these babies in the womb, and then both my kids end up in the EMF artificial light voids that are hospitals. So why worry so much about sleeping near a cell phone when you're six months pregnant? I guess we do what we can. And maybe that was a lesson I didn't learn at the time that I started to learn today with this one, because Dr. Brogan was really great, I have to apologize to her and her team because we recorded this well over a month ago at this point rarely do we have such a situation but Richard Dolan had to jump the line because we were talking about current events and recent whistleblowers same with Mark Goodwin We wanted to get that out while the stable coin bills were being voted on

1:04:23 And then Matthew Eritt also had a few elements of recent news and Jay Widener was waiting awhile. And we wanted to get Gordon out, of course this course is coming up and we're talking about elements of the cycle so it landed the way it landed. And it actually has a nice companion show too Gordon because I ended up actually telling an anecdote in this one not even knowing there'd be a Gordon show anywhere in the vicinity of this but I guess that's why it has come up because those conversations with Gordon talking about shadow work and wounds turning into gifts and all that, it stuck out in my mind. And so this

1:05:04 Ended up being kind of about a similar thing. And now they're companion episodes for the people who like that? Yeah, they compliment each other and if you think this inner work direction is interesting, that's a beautiful thing and I'm sorry for the double dose for those who would rather we look at the external world but maybe there's something in there about you to look at and that's the way these things always go Some of it probably sounds a bit trite or obvious, but really what are we gonna do about the awful shit going on out there? Yes! A possibly white black guy with a gun pulled up and got a perfect parking spot right in front of the Blackstone Tower in Manhattan. And walked right in with a rifle in plain view and killed himself on the 33rd floor when he was done terrorizing

1:05:53 And yes, they're telling us that he did this because he was mad at the NFL about his CTE at age 27 but got on the wrong elevator even though there's eyewitness videos of a woman getting arrested on the street who was with him while the cops try to keep her off camera and run around in the corner. And yeah another witness said he was shouting free Palestine and had the flag over his face But is doing A deep dive on another false flag, PSYOP media manipulated mass shooter event. Just a warped version of a wine mom's true crime obsession is a deep dive into this case maybe a clever diversion from doing your own inner work or moving closer towards your own goals and dreams? Who am I to say

1:06:38 Anyway, hearing Kelly's stories from being a bit further down the line of parenting than me were super helpful. I'm really gonna ease up on how I've been acting with my kids. I still have time to turn it around because there is not some deep impression of me being overbearing or paranoid about toxicity this early We have a lot of food planted in the yard. I should celebrate the wins, right? My kids pick cherries, mulberries and cranberry hibiscus leaves right off the bush going to and from the car. Maybe the Aquafina bottle isn't gonna kill them. Maybe it's okay that the restaurant doesn't have organic fruit if we have it at home. Maybe my overall relationship with my kids being less combative and authoritarian is more important than reducing their stress and anxiety about the world does more to set them up for long-term success

1:07:27 Are we leading households to live in paranoia or empowerment? Important question for me to ask over the next period of time. Maybe always, and I'm sure I'm not alone. These things are worth thinking about before the unconscious patterns get worn in and change becomes hard. I don't know how many listeners are parents new or old or think these sorts of things are interesting But I thought that was a good use of my time with Kelly in particular. And the other stuff too, the warped field of conventional psychiatry and never get sick of beating that drum revisiting the need to challenge germ theory talking about are really mind blowing example like Dr. Joe Dispensa. I can't believe this stuff that I'm hearing coming out of those retreats sounds like magic

1:08:23 And I am a big fan of that saying of hers, that it's like you're trying to buy eggs at the hardware store. Of course that speaks to repeatedly asking people to be different than they are or offer you something they don't tend to give or aren't able to give. I agree-that is a dumb mistake to continue to make but you can always just get acceptance and humbly remind yourself there are no perfect people and maybe you should refill your own well if you can because in my life I don't really need the people around me to be much more than fun, enjoyable people to laugh with bonded over a shared history. I've just been the crazy black sheep guy on the edge of so many friend groups at this point that I'm very comfortable there even if I think that impression of me is kind of played out and i'm actually quite tame and level-headed but that's fine

1:09:14 There's not much I feel like I'm missing from social interactions, except good laughs and a type of lightness. So yes, the first hour went really well in the second hour we got into things like understanding the emotional roots of illness and how that German new medicine approach Works with various things, understanding sexual health and STDs from a German new medicine perspective. That personal meta narrative importance the role of mindset in health decisions navigating medical systems and interventions and SSRI is all really good stuff

1:09:56 The last bits there are basically where Kelly shines. They are her specialty, but I wanted to start with some less expected stuff for people who have heard Kelly talk before on our own podcast or in other interviews still today's a good day to dust off the Dr pill pusher song from the last time we talked about the dangers of SSRIs so that's easy for me. But before we do that and higher side news. I can't say i'm doing much more than staying the course. I hope plus members got some good time with the Clip Genie transcript archive while it was available to everyone TV subs are also good now, I'm less concerned about at all. I thank everyone who appreciates the video or just jumped into a higher tier to offer a higher level of support

1:10:45 I can say that this has been the right move, the studio thing. I still think we have some sound consistency issues to iron out but with so many guests in different random remote recording environments it's tough! That's not exactly the forte of the guys working in the studio and it shouldn't be expected of them but we're working on it And I also want to dial in email notifications for the video that include a direct link. So you don't have to randomly check the website or follow me on any platform if you don't want to I'm also still very determined to get the video streaming to work with the Safari browser. As i've said you need a special license from Apple to do that and I can't seem to get my developer account to renew and support is just running me in circles but, I won't give up on that because that's not something we can just let go of and not have

1:11:41 But yes, otherwise I would say pretty much smooth sailing. I just checked the rating for the last episode with Gordon The White and I would expect no less a generous 4.7 from the plus people. I'm happy you're happy! Maybe this one will work out similarly then because of similar themes but don't worry I'm not going all inward shadow work all the time Although speaking of, did you see Ice Age Farmer is back after two and a half years of absence? And it seems like that might be the direction he's going to though. It's a little too early to say but great show with Gordon I saw some of the comments that he's too doom and gloom and I think those people are really missing the point. He's very optimistic about getting through a very rough part of the cycle and out to the other end just

1:12:32 Just because the forecast is a little gloomy. It doesn't mean he's doom and gloom, I think there's a distinction they're worth making and I do think the civil war us divorce prediction is bold and wild but let's just see let a prediction be what it is let a predictor predict let a forecaster forecast but clearly most people did get it and did like it it's got a 4.7 can ask for much more and on to the meetup calendar August 1st. I think I'll have this out on August 1st, but it looks like people are meeting up at danger Dave's shit talk circle and that is in Bentonville Arizona and then that's also the one where Marduk the sun God will be there previous THC guests get at it August 8th Astoria Oregon at the Astoria Brewing Company August 9th Raleigh North Carolina at the Raleigh Brewing Company And then August 10th these sour duck market

1:13:28 In Austin, Texas. Okay. August 16th Wayne Wright Alberta Canada a meetup at Wallace park and August 27th black rock city black rock city Nevada okay that one looks like it is related to burning man so if you're into that subculture let's let the worlds collide right So good stuff, fine. Like-minded locals and expand your network higher side meetups.com go forth and use what we have it's free to everyone and just openly available so that's the show I guess thanks again to Kelly for being just so willing to talk about

1:14:10 kind of personal difficult thing sometimes the fact that she's gone to that level 11 on the slider, the conspiracy slider and then also has this background in psychiatry and parenting and relationships. I know personally i'm going to be carrying this episode forward for probably years many more years than most episodes so This is a personal one for me, I suppose. It's good medicine and I hope i'm not alone there otherwise it's just a weird voyeurism thing where you're watching me try to improve myself and just moving on with your day but all right well take care of you in yours I've done my part Your move big harm of pill pushers paranoid conspiracy parents and metaphysical narrative hijackers your fucking move

1:15:02 You got a problem that they gave you Choking down answers that they made you To think this kind of way can work, ya know Is the meaning of insane dude? You gotta be strong my friend And way brighter than you look Gotta face some star dark difficulty Lift your jaw up, say back to You push her, mind shush her. Brains grabbin' money takin' thoughts, squash her. You need me more than I need you and it's time that I withdrew! You can say it ain't that easy. You can say hey you don't know me. You could make all the excuses but what's the uses? Just go on a list. Thumbs out to make you crazy Make you sad and break ya To think all of that is a burden But to know it Is a crown

1:15:59 You are my friend and way brighter than you look. Gotta face some stark, dark difficulty Lift your jaw, pill pusher Mind shusher Brain scrabbling money taking thoughts squisher You need me more than I need you And it's time that I withdrew! You can say it ain't fair You can say hey you don't know me You can make all the excuses But what's the use-is? Just go on The system's out to make you crazy Make you sad and break you down

1:16:35 To think all that is a burden, but to know it is a crown. Oh you're still here? I thought we were done well there you have it another great entry into the deep and robust THC archive that goes back over 15 years at this point peruse it all at thehiresidechats.com and take advantage