Dr. Gerald Pollack | The 4th Phase of Water in Nature, Health, & Energy

00:00 Embrace yourself, because you're about to dive into another free first hour episode of the Higher Side Chats. And we just want to let you know that whether your looking for a companion through your paranoid insomnia, entertaining yourself through one of life's mundane activities or trying to ward off the internal screams from all those sad smothered souls around the office THC is here and you should know that every episode of the higher side chats has an entire second hour for plus members Sign up at thehiresitechatsplus.com and you'll get years of Plus Show archives, lifetime forum access, a special invite to Greg Carlwood's monthly joint sessions MP3s of THC music bonus episodes tour videos and 10% off t-shirts grinders and whatever else ends up in The HireSite Store It's $8 a month that you won't miss so become a plus member and treat yourself in these troubled times always action packed and commercial free

00:51 Which means you'll unfortunately never hear my voice again. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls children of the revolution. Let me just say today is a real treat And I rarely do this sort of pre-show Pre intro intro thing anymore But I am today just to let you know we did have to deviate from our normal two hour format A bit on this one Dr Pollock is in the midst of several professional and personal situations that demand attention and I feel lucky to have spent any time with him at all

01:58 But I asked if he'd come talk to me, he asked if we could make it an hour and I said If you can meet in the middle at 1.5 hours I can make it work without stretching things too thin And he was kind enough to agree So we have more of a 45-45 split rather than 2 hours It's fine by me because I can be flexible I can have interviews that we might not otherwise have at all By being flexible And the things we get into today once we get past the introductory stuff is, to me really fascinating and honestly surprising. Big thanks to our friend Shamanjaneer for bringing some pretty advanced and exotic questions to the table because they did open up some pretty wild doors. The subject of EZ Water in its behavior as well as its role on the body and how important it is just understanding the context of health

02:52 It's so revolutionary that we could have easily spent the time just trying to explain the 101 stuff, and I didn't want to do that. There are countless interviews with Dr. Pollack that do and he has several great presentations you can find online And that is all important context Of course his book The Fourth Phase of Water is about as good as you could ask for It's well illustrated, it's in a sort of casual textbook format and it gives you all the data from all their experiments and everything you'd want to know about this structured water. And we first heard about Dr Pollack's work in Shemangineer's Water Alchemy episode where he pulled together some of the best paradigm-busting holistic

03:37 fringe science, we should say I guess for lack of a better term. Maybe rejected natural science or so mind-blowing the system can't take it science Whatever you want to say but I've been thinking about it ever since and I see these conferences Dr Pollack speaks at and of course the speaker doesn't sign off on everything The other speakers say in places like that But I would just say that the spirit of Nikola Tesla and Viktor Shaberger, and mineral alchemists and ether physics advocates is very much alive today. Yes overshadowed now gunned by the big machine of economic interest in paradigm controlling pre-approved boxes of so called scientific inquiry

04:20 But it's there nonetheless, and I hope this serves as an inspiration to explore that world more while its thought leaders of today are still with us. But let's do the damn thing buy the ticket take the ride And let's surf that easy wave to the promised land with the man himself Dr Gerald Pollack It's The Higher Side Chats Podcast but you can call it THC Always talking fringe ideas, digging up conspiracies Stuff they don't want you to know it's the stuff we wanna see That's life here on the higher side

05:01 Alright, Hiresight Chatters how we doing out there? From sunny San Diego I'm Greg Carlwood. And as we all know the world is awash with mysteries and damn near magical qualities that bright minds throughout history have tried to highlight only to be pushed the margins of their disciplines and oftentimes the margins of society itself Nikola Tesla, Thomas Townsend Browne, Rudolf Steiner, Wilhelm Reich, Jacques Benveniste and Viktor Schauberger just to name a few. And it seems that upsetting the scientific apple cart has repercussions that just don't seem worth the risk! And you might ask yourself when the last time we had a radical new scientific breakthrough outside of the technological space even was?

05:40 Sadly, our scientific system supplies an unfortunate soup of egos, assumptions, skepticism, tradition, financial interests, fear, indoctrination, corporate sponsorship and a pre-approved paradigm that is simply sometimes wrong. Which brings me to today's topic the life giving fundamental element of water. It covers over 70% of the earth makes up over 60 percent of our bodies but there is still so much about it we don't understand But luckily the work of today's guest Dr. Gerald Pollack has definitely moved the needle, probably more so than anyone I know living today. Dr. Pollack is known for his work on the fourth phase of water also known as EZ or structured water where he found that H2O placed near a hydrophilic surface builds up layers of this gel-like negatively charged structured water better described as H3O2

06:34 As his work has progressed, it's turned the world of cell biology on its head, clarified the interaction between water and light, shown that just these two simple components can provide free energy, taught us so much about the water in our bodies and has opened doors for many new applications in health, energy, and beyond. You can find Dr. Pollack maintaining an active laboratory at the University of Washington in wet and wonderful Seattle, he's also the founding editor-in-chief of Water a multidisciplinary research journal director of The Institute of Venture Science cofounder of Fourth Phase Inc., and founder of the annual conference on the physics chemistry and biology of water

07:15 We can't forget he's also written some very impressive books like Cells, Gels and the Engines of Life Water and The Cell And of course the ever popular Fourth Phase Of Water Beyond Solid Liquid Vapor It is a true honor to have him here today To quench our intellectual thirst So bend the knee folks The scientific activist extraordinaire And the structured water sage himself Dr. Pollack welcome to the higher side Oh, thanks so much Greg for your ultra flattering introduction which surely I don't deserve. But anyway thank you i'm flattered Well it was the least I could do! This is a real treat to have you here Thank you so much Your work has come up with a lot of previous guests It's simple yet complex and as a whole pandora's box of implications

08:03 And I thought maybe we could start with a little water history 101. A big part of your book, The Fourth Phase of Water talks about this checkered past, polywater the water memory debacle as well as the scientific culture that doesn't make it any easier to have these sorts of breakthroughs. I think that's all useful context for people can you talk to us a bit about this history for the uninitiated? Yeah, sure. I'm happy to do so. So you earlier mentioned polywater and also mentioned Jacques Benret who was responsible for water memory and

08:42 Those two issues are really interesting and they really do represent the concepts that you opened with about the difficulty that people have with ideas that run counter to the mainstream view. It's highly problematic and those two debacles which I'll tell you about created an atmosphere that led scientists to shy away from water because these two lead to the destruction pretty much of two careers and then many people thinking, oh if these two giants in science were destroyed that way what about mere mortals like us? And so people were really nervous about dipping their toes into water. So lot of people stayed away

09:34 a non-field. It's unimaginable that substance so critically important for life, at the center of all life is a field that essentially didn't exist it's beginning to change now so let me back up and tell you about those two The first one was the so called poly water debacle And it took place, it actually started in Russia when someone came to the Moscow laboratory Boris Deryagin and Deryagin was considered to be the most prominent physical chemist in all of Russia. And Russia had no shortage of physical chemists Russian science was quite advanced but he was you might say the chief people looked up to him and someone came

10:22 and demonstrated to him a very kind of peculiar observation that if you put water into a thin capillary tube, clean obviously in water that had been vaporized and condensed so it shouldn't contain any contaminants. And together they studied that water and Derjaguin began to become interested obviously he was super famous well-recognised scientist And he noticed that the water after it got inside that thin capillary tube changed its properties enormously. It had a different boiling point, different freezing points, the density was different and every property that they measure was different and he thought that this was kind of existence of maybe another kind of water type or phase of water whatever

11:13 During the Cold War period, this was in the 1950s. Some of the papers began getting translated into English and Western scientists were really interested in this exotic sounding finding from a famous Russian scientist and they then had two choices – one choice is to take it up and study it some more and see if they could even leapfrog this famous scientist and come up with more, and more interesting stuff that built on his observation. And the other since it was the Cold War time in the West was obviously in confrontation with Russia Soviet scientists who the West led to believe were completely incompetent which obviously wasn't true but a good propaganda. So some scientists said oh this is impossible we're going to demonstrate that

12:06 And so one group went ahead and there was in fact a lead article in the journal Science. It was called Polywater, and it was about this particular finding And the authors thought that this was really interesting, believed it was true and they said you know this kind of water that Deryagin found it behaves more like a polymer than a bunch of independent molecules. So in other words the idea is that the water molecule were somehow linked together in a way forming a polymer and therefore they decided to call it polywater and that's how polywater got its name

12:44 Meanwhile, the press got hold of this and some of the people were expressed a kind of nervousness because one idea was that since this is a polymer if you throw it in water, the water will continue to polymerize into one big solid mass and life would be extinct. So this kind of journalism was very provocative and I think it inspired some scientists to look into it, to demonstrate that in fact it was really wrong. And the first one to do so, the one that made a real impact was a group I'm sorry I can't remember where they were from and they repeated the same experiment and they found out that the so-called pure water was not really pure but when it was in the capillary tube, it would leach some of the silica, in other words

13:39 and some of those molecules were found inside the water. And they wrote a paper saying, this is all nonsense because the water that was considered to be pure water was not pure it had contaminants from the glass itself so that was devastating for Daryagin because a lot of people again thinking that Russian science is not to be paid serious attention too and therefore they were relieved to find that this is all nonsense, fortifying their view that the Russians don't know what they're doing. And then what really put the nails in the coffin of Pollywater was a group I can't remember...I think it was from Australia? They put some salt in water and after they put salt in the water, they found that the properties or some of the properties that Derjagin had found and put into his papers

14:32 were probably due to salt and he suggested or they suggested that the Russians were doing the experiments in the summertime and they were probably sweating in the water. Of course, this is preposterous when you think about the number one physical chemist in all of Russia but the word got around and finally Polly Water was dead, not only dead but it became a scientific joke so to speak and what happened few years after that was Derjagin himself wrote a paper essentially retracting everything. And so Polly Water was seemingly dead forever however I met two people who worked very closely with Deryagin in one of my trips

15:14 One of them was his last postdoc and the other one was a guy who's head of a sister institute right near the one that Daryagin ran in a town called Pushino which is a science city. These guys were both directors at different institutes, high-level guys and and my friend had coffee, vodka whatever with him practically every evening and they would discuss science. And they both independently told me the same story that Deryagin was pressed by the Soviet government into admitting that he made an error because by putting the blame on him, the blame was therefore shifted from the Soviet government

15:58 they were very sensitive about these kinds of issues, shifted from the government to this one scientist and they were relieved of all so-called responsibility. So he was in a hot spot and I guess he didn't have too much choice because his choice was either to write that retracted paper or probably find himself somewhere in Siberia. He knew quite well about the situation. That not knowing what I just relayed to you, thinking that the scientists of such stature could make such a blunder led them to kind of shy away from doing any kind of research into water.

16:41 That attitude held for 10 or 15 years or something like that. And then along came Jacques Benveniste and you know about him but I don't know how much your listeners know about Jacques Benveniste, to some he's a hero, to others he is the villain and Jacques at one time was absolutely a hero in the area of immunology who became very famous in France after doing a stint and became famous for some techniques, immunological technique that he developed. And he came back to France and we had a laboratory of something like 50 people very major scientists who was connected with so many

17:24 other important people in France and throughout the world. And along came some guy who I believe was a homeopath and wanted to demonstrate something to him in the lab so Jacques had been working with certain cells that secrete histamine, if he would expose those cells to a solution containing antibodies The cells would secrete and this guy came along with a background in homeopathy. He said, you know I can take your antibodies and instead of using them as you use them concentrated, I can dilute them until effectively there are no antibodies left only the water that held the antibody then I can get the same response

18:10 Jacques's response was, I don't believe it. However being an open-minded guy he said that well I've got this big laboratory there is a space in the corner why don't you take that space and show us your results? And the guy proceeded to do these serial dilutions with shaking in between the same as essentially as the homeopaths do diluting and diluting and diluting to remained the water that had been exposed to the antibodies and they did the experiment and voila, it worked. He got same result and Jacques was flabbergasted by this and they continued to do experiments pretty much the same as what happened to Deryagin who became entranced by a guy who came to his laboratory to demonstrate in experiment. So having obtained positive results he thought well where should I publish

19:03 And the obvious answer was, this is so important that we're going to publish in Nature. Which still is I guess nature and science being the preeminent scientific journals. So he sent in manuscript and what came back from the editor, John Maddox. Actually Sir John Maddox was a kind of blistering letter saying we're not even going to review this because if you're right everybody else is wrong and I refuse to believe that everybody else is wrong therefore we won't send it to the reviewers even for their consideration so being astute guy Jacques Benveniste thought about

19:45 Instead of fighting with the editor, the best thing to do is to ask a bunch of colleagues and see what results they get. Jacques obviously had friends around the world and recruited them, it turned out that by repeating precisely the same protocols they got the same result. And they sent it again to Nature with multiple authors and they said in their paper that they couldn't do it every time but a number of times they could get positive result was easily highly statistically significant despite an occasional failure which they didn't understand but it was real. So what came back is much the same response, doesn't matter how many people repeat it can be and obviously this is not the sort of thing that endears scientists to the editors of scientific journals. It's just incredible to receive a response like that

20:48 books and journals and such. There's more detail there but it just so interesting. So finally, there was a lot of push from in Paris or quite a few homeopaths and they recognized Jacques Benveniste as being their hero because he demonstrated that what they do on everyday basis is delusions to produce homeopathy that he demonstrated this famous scientist and they're justified in the kinds of things that they do. So, the feedback got back to London, the headquarters of Nature and they were under a lot of pressure to do something because they certainly didn't want the reputation being arbitrary in rejecting a paper simply because it didn't agree with the status quo

21:35 So they made a compromise and when I visited the late Jacques Benveniste, he showed me. He said, ''I got a call right on that telephone right there from John Maddox'' and he said, ''I'll make a deal with you.'' So what's the deal? The deal was, ''I'll publish your paper in next week's issue of Nature however, I'll do it only under the condition that you allow a committee of peers, scientific peers to come to Paris from wherever and look over your shoulder and see what you're doing, and then report back to the readers of Nature. So Jacques agreed I guess you'd agree and I'd agree we sincerely have some findings that we don't mind somebody coming in watching us doing the experiment or doing it themselves." So he agreed several peers would be coming to his laboratory few weeks later they came

22:29 So, who was on the committee of peers? The first was the editor himself who had an axe to grind. The second was the amazing Randy a magician of highest order who is famous for debunking the tricks of other magicians and it was obvious they were thinking of some kind of trick or some kind of cheating and they brought him along because he's expert at finding out what the tricks are And the third one was a guy named Walter Stewart. He came from the National Institutes of Health and they have a group there that investigates fraud in science and he was in that group so by the makeup of the committee, this is not exactly a committee of peers but a Commando Committee to figure out what kind of trick or what kind of fraud was being perpetrated

23:20 So they came to Paris and the first meeting or the first demonstration I should say, the technician who consistently did the experiments did the experiment again and right in front of their eyes. It worked just exactly as they had reported positive results The second day, the same technician did the experiment and there was a kind of little trick played by the committee. They actually they themselves coded each one of the vials and only they knew how to decode and when they finally decoded it still worked. And the third day that Walter Stewart from the fraud department at scientific division or something of scientific integrity what it's called

24:02 And this guy did the dilutions, and when he did the dilutions they didn't get the expected result. So they huddled in their hotel and decided that it's obvious since the French when they do it got so-called correct results but when it was done by one of the visitors they got the opposite result despite n equals 1 They decided that it must be some kind of fraud, some kind of trick which they couldn't find out by the way. Kind of surprising because this is James Randi, the amazing Randi is probably world's leading expert on debunking the tricks of other magicians who are pretty deft at doing what they're doing and he was unable to figure out

24:46 what was going on with Benveniste. So they wrote a paper in Nature and they said, well this whole thing is that water memory which is what they referred to it as because the water that was diluted seemed to have memory of the molecules with which had been in contact before the dilution so the title was something like Water Memory Is A Delusion, in other words its magic trick his career went south. It went so far south that he couldn't get any more support, his lab essentially closed down at the height of his career and he became a scientific joke. The joke runs something like you're having trouble with memory? Drink some of Benveniste water it will come back. So anyway those two the polywater and water memory

25:37 had devastating effects on water research because although water research was a rather prominent field before the 1950s, as you could imagine it is quite natural that it should be. It kind of vanished from the field with a few exceptions for several decades and so there was almost no continuity in And some of us crazy people found the subject to be of interest. In my own particular case, it was following a scientist who is now 100 years old this very year, Gilbert Ling. For me starting my career in the field of muscle contraction with nobody coming to the realization that water being two-thirds of muscles all the theories ignore water and theories are based on proteins alone and how they interact to produce force and motion presuming that the water doesn't exist

26:39 And so I being in the field and not being happy with the current theory of muscle contraction because it didn't fit the evidence and looking around for alternatives, the idea that water might play some role became potentially really interesting. So that's how I got into the area of water but I think giving a monologue and I need to stop and ask you for follow-up questions. No worries, no worries that's an excellent breakdown clearly people have had hunches about water and there being some properties worth exploring and the result hasn't been great for them when they've taken a peek but of course that brings us up to kind of your work in the fourth phase of water so the three phases of water that we learn about in school are pretty easy to see in everyday life

27:29 are there places where people can look to see this negatively charged gel like fourth phase to maybe help their understanding of it how do you break people in? How do you break people in is a good question and I'm tempted to respond by saying that its possible take that water which is kind of like a liquid crystal, it's not quite as solid and not quite as liquid. It's like a gel and we're now able to actually repeat what an Italian group has done and that is make a solid of it You can take that water, extract it dehydrated by some standard technique and what you get out is solid easy water. And you can see it, you can touch it, you can play with it to do what you want so it is tangible now that's not the easiest way to deal because you need the right equipment and if rather demanding to do those experiments but that is a you might say glib answer, you can touch

28:31 thread, a kind of golden brown color that winds itself around and we're beginning to explore the properties of it. See if it has the same properties as the original that exists more naturally So how do you introduce this to a person who knows nothing about it? One thing I could say is that your body is filled with it. We all learn that our body's two-thirds water, actually it's not, the fraction, the percent diminishes with age so newborn might be 80%, 85% water by volume

29:08 the embryo probably even higher. And as we get long in the tooth, the volume percent of water tends to diminish and when you get to be my age it's probably down to 70% or even 65% or something like that so we keep getting progressively dehydrated but most of the water that's in our body is not ordinary H2O liquid water, its fourth phase of water. How do we know I guess, I don't want to go into all of the different reasons because it takes too long but let me just summarize by saying anyone who's gone through a high school biology who has played with cells giant cells or tissues and inadvertently cut open one of them. So if there is liquid you expect it to pour out

29:57 It's just like a balloon that's filled with water. You puncture it and all the water comes out but the water doesn't come out of the cell, a little bit may leak out but the rest of the water inside the cell remains as it was so it's not a liquid and certainly it's not solid because you can compress this cell. So somewhere in between then other evidence points to the fact that it's actually fourth phase water. It makes a lot sense because this water forms next to surfaces particularly hydrophilic or water-loving surfaces that is the kinds of surfaces if you can imagine like take your desk and drop a droplet of water on your desk. If the water spreads out then it's hydrophilic or water loving, it beads up like Teflon then its hydrophobic and this phenomenon doesn't occur next to hydrophobics surfaces only next to

30:53 And your cell is just totally packed with hydrophilic surfaces. All of the proteins and the other macromolecules that fill your cell, the solids are roughly 70% protein There are nucleic acids and other solids. The surfaces of these that abut the water, they're essentially all except for small pockets hydrophilic or charged surfaces that just the kind of surfaces that organize the water into this fourth phase so that's one point of recognition that this fourth phase is not

31:30 merely laboratory phenomenon or peculiarities. It fills your body and also fills the body of all animals and plants as well, I'm not suggesting there's no H2O in any one other is but it But it's mostly easy or fourth phase water. Mm hmm. Yes, that helps. It definitely helps I think that's a great primer Of course i don't want to get too fundamental because then we'll never get to the advanced stuff but it is good for context though and your studies of course as you said show that water in our cells is not simple H2O but rather this EZ water and also that simple sunlight can increase the EZ zone or the layers of EZ water between the bulk water and that hydrophilic surface. And infrared and ultraviolet light in particular are helpful

32:21 growing this easy zone or the layers of it, which is why it's good for us to get out in the sun and why infrared saunas have such health benefits. But can you elaborate on this relationship between easy water and sunlight in general? Sure, happy to do that. It's really important because first of all I just want to straighten out something that IR infrared and ultraviolet definitely have effects but the effects are different in the case of ultraviolet it actually we found experimentally it doesn't expand the exclusion zone but we have preliminary not conclusive evidence that when you add ultraviolet light, it gets absorbed

33:02 by the fourth phase and we think it increases the negative charge contained in the fourth phase or in the easy as you say that to require I just wanted to straighten out but let me go back to light effective light so The first thing to mention is what we're talking about is very similar to the first step in photosynthesis. You know, on the first step of photosynthesis light is absorbed and the light splits the water – Step 1 – into H+, OH-. This well known to be the first step in photosynthesis it's also what we've observed

33:40 And that's the start of the action with light. So I just want to make a point before going on, that what we've observed in water is very similar to what people know exists in photosynthesis where light breaks the water into negative and positive components so it's not really so exotic. It's almost predictable because plants are mostly water So if what happens is known to happen in plants also happens in water that we've seen with other hydrophilic, next to other hydrophilic surfaces instead of say chlorophyll in plants then it's reassuring that there's precedent for it. Okay so we couldn't figure out at first where the energy came from to build this zone because the zone is negatively charged typically

34:30 negatively charged with an equal positive charge beyond the zone of fourth phase or the EZ. It's like a battery, you have negative and the negative is built from those OH- units that can build up to form. It actually forms a hexagonal structure all those OH-, linking together in some way maybe beyond the scope of conversation because I need to show some diagrams but it's a battery that forms and batteries have energy but you can't create a battery from nothing. You need to put in energies, just like charging your cell phone battery. You plug it in and then you can use the battery again so this principle applies to everything and in order to achieve this kind of separation-of-charge or battery like effect, you need energy. We're going figure out where on earth the energy came from? It took us awhile also the EZ is ordered

35:28 This is an ordered phase. The best we understand, it's a stack of hexagonal sheets that form adjacent to the hydrophilic surface one sheet built upon another so this is highly ordered if you start from chaos like ordinary H2O with molecules randomly disposed and bouncing around huge number of times every second There's not much order. So if you go from disorder to order, you also need to put in energy. It is a fundamental thermodynamic principle that if you want to create order out of chaos, you need to put energy so both that and the battery recharging the battery both of them require energy. Where on earth does the energy come from?

36:16 So we were scratching our heads for two or three years because it had to come from somewhere but we couldn't figure it out maybe because of my dense brain or something like that. But one day, a student who was doing what he was not supposed to do actually led to our figuring it out and what he did He had an experiment where he had some hydrophilic material, I think it was Nafion which we often use but not always. Nafion sitting in water and next to the nafion we have an exclusion zone EZ or fourth phase water. And beyond that, we had little particles spheres, microspheres that are excluded from this liquid crystalline EZ area so we could easily identify the EZ as being

37:07 between the hydrophilic surface and where the microspheres were. So we could watch it in the microscope, so this student that was doing the experiment and he found a gooseneck lamp sitting next to him picked up the goose neck lamp and shined it on the chamber and called me over and said, hey take a look. And I could see that the region of the chamber that was illuminated with that lamp was much bigger than other regions of the EZ. The longer he held the lamp there, the more it would grow. When you took the lamp away it receded back to its original size so from his quote experiment unquote we got the idea well you know if photons light

37:52 was important in expanding the EZ, maybe it's actually photons that are responsible for even the original buildup of the EZ. And we tested this using a formal experimental protocol and we published the result and we looked at different wavelengths to see which ones are the most effective in doing this so we started with the ultraviolet as the shortest wavelength of the EZ. And as the wavelengths move to the longer ones into the visible range, starting with violet and blue and green and so on we can see that longer the wavelength larger is the effect but when we got very longest one

38:37 into the infrared, we saw a huge effect much larger by an order or even almost two orders of magnitude than any visible wavelength especially at the wavelength of 3.0 micrometers that had a huge effect on expanding the exclusion zone and if we left that very feeble light that came from we could get increases up to 10 times the size. So, the effect is absolutely huge with really small low intensity of light so it became clear that yeah there is energy and the energy is natural, it comes from the environment

39:21 Or you can add yourself, you can turn on a IR infrared lamp and watch the exclusion zone grow or you could just do nothing. There's plenty of infrared energy out there although most people including myself I must admit early on don't realize where it comes from actually If you put the bagel in the toaster and look inside the toaster, you see that coils glowing bright orange and it's hot. And you say oh yeah well it's generating heat then heat is pretty much the same as infrared light or infrared energy so its generate infrared. The same with the oven electric oven

40:04 And that's true but it's also true that infrared energy is coming from everywhere. So if you're sitting in a room and you darken the room, turn off all the lights shades are closed, curtains drawn whatever. It's dark in there you can't see anything and if you take out your cell phone and try to photograph it you'll get nothing but if you take out a camera that has an infrared sensor instead of visible light sensor just replace it then there are lots of infrared cameras out there. You'll get a beautiful image of everything at night for example or

40:44 Everything is generating infrared energy. If you capture that energy, you get an image. The military of course uses it for looking at images at night and it can be particularly useful as astronomers use it as well so it's all over which means its free energy which means unlike what to read about in a chemistry textbook about free energy this is literally free. It's free for the taking because not even a nickel and you get it. And because this energy is always around, you need to go to absolute zero to get rid of it which is not highly practical. It's there and because the energy is there to build easy water... You always have easy water whenever you have the correct conditions that are right hydrophilic surface

41:34 ordinary water, you have infrared energy and the infrared will build EZ which means you always have easy water. And a funny thing is finding out that light is the driver it took us at least a couple of years to scratch our heads and figure out being unable until that student found it so I do some teaching here at University Washington and I had a class and I was explaining through And instead of telling them the energy source, I asked a question. Can anybody figure out where the energy might come from? A student sitting in the class raised his hand rather tentatively and he said... He was almost embarrassed to offer his suggestion. He said light

42:21 I grabbed that student quickly and got him to work in our laboratory. He could figure it out right away, it took us two years so there you go. Anyway, it's light and that's how we came to understand of course it has a lot of implications not just that the situation is similar to the first step of photosynthesis but a lot of applications especially for health Absolutely. That's such an impressive discovery and you have shown that when you have this water where the charge is separated, you can actually use that energy to power a clock or light a light bulb? To read a little from your book, you write we have shown that easy batteries can supply charges and they can store charges for substantial periods of time further they can deliver a significant fraction of that charge

43:06 That charge can provide energy for driving diverse processes ranging from chemical reactions to hydraulic flows. Indeed, the EZ battery could be a versatile supplier for much of nature's energy." Well I'm no scientist but that sounds pretty exciting! How far can you take this? Could this ever be a real factor in society's energy needs or could it power an engine or something like that? Well, it struck us that the answer was yes and one of my students who was actually working on that project and demonstrated with PhD thesis that you can actually light a light bulb with that energy, as small light bulb. So he demonstrated possibility, he didn't demonstrate practicality because to demonstrate practicality, you need a lot of energy otherwise it's just the laboratory phenomenon and he convinced me that we should form a company to develop this

44:03 And we did it and it was not my idea but I think with his idea, let's call this Fourth Phase Incorporated. We did and we now have a company that set up in pursuing several of the findings in our laboratory to see if they can serve to benefit the world. That's one of them but we put on the back burner because at first we thought filtration was more critical. Our water is just filled with all kinds of trash It's becoming a problem so serious that it's having really major impact on people health and incidence of chronic illnesses are increasing. So you can take water and you can actually put it through process called reverse osmosis to get rid of pretty much all the junk but the cost of doing that, highly

44:55 energy intensive and well it's possible to do something like that in Saudi Arabia which in fact is what they do to get essentially all their water because they have no other resources. Apart from them, it's not so feasible for the rest of the world because it's so expensive to do. You can take salt water and get drinking water out of this process." So we know that since the exclusion zone by definition excludes essentially all or almost all of these pharmaceuticals and bacteria viruses The only energy that's required is the energy of the sun. You just capture the easy water and you can get energy and company has been working on this, we're still working on it

45:40 Also, in the back burner we're limited basically by resources and we're looking for more investment. There's such a bright future for this but in order to do it, to hire the people who make it happen you need the right personnel so we have some, we need more and we need more investments because there is so much that has come out of our lab that can be exploited for societal use, the benefit of society Also drinking water, the water that contains EZ in it as a reasonable fraction of the drinking water also has health benefits because this easy water is essential for cell function and we're working on developing that.

46:24 We've learned that going from a laboratory demonstration to building the technology is giant step. It's not so simple to do it, make something that actually practical for people who use. So we're working hard on all of these and just rounding back your question about practically used yes Do think so but we've been limited in our ability to work on and develop these outcomes. We're looking hard for investment, we have a really wonderful board which includes I'm not sure if you know Robert Kennedy Jr who's done so much for various health issues and he's on our board and several other people including distinguished CEO company

47:11 We're now trying to build our investment to make some of these things happen. We're really excited about it." So the answer is yes, I'm sorry i gave a long answer to a short question practicality we think so and we're working on it Yes, indeed. And well here's an interesting one so you found out that water in a hydrophilic tube can kind of flow on its own the negative charge pushes it along without any kind of pump really maybe this is the mechanism behind blood flow in the body moreso than the heart being the sole pump but But that knowledge alone could be used to do something like maybe upgrade our entire plumbing infrastructure. I guess in a perfect world we would have hydrophilic vortexing pipes that can absorb sunlight above the ground as they flow? I don't know, I mean...I'm sure there's huge infrastructural possibilities there!

48:03 That's really creative. You touched on so many issues, let me first just respond in a practical way to your hypothesis about using it in major pipes to promote flow I think it won't be practical for that although I might actually be wrong because the driving phenomenon starts at the hydrophilic surface. And if you have a narrow tube, the hydrophilic surface is a major fraction of the opening in the tube of aluminum and it might be 10-20% as diameter and it works beautifully in situations like that if the tube material is hydrophilic. If you have a giant tube like

48:41 Some of the underground tubes that take water from some glacial melt for example as a conduit to the city, these are huge tubes and because their diameters are really large. The EZ is very small fraction, the EZ that forms just inside the tube material is a very small fraction of the tube diameter and it won't work so effectively. I'm not suggesting that it's impossible but I'm suggesting that it may not be practical in the manner that you suggested. If you, on the other hand put a lot of Small tubes in parallel, yes then it can work and it can work effectively. But returning to the heart just before this interview I was speaking to my student who's been working on that project and we're putting together a couple of papers just before his PhD which he is about to receive and we did indeed find that in the cardiovascular system this mechanism, this slow mechanism

49:42 you alluded to is actually working probably at the level of the capillaries and so, you don't actually need the heart to get slow. Let me explain there have been experiments not only my student doing it but people maybe four or five different investigators over the last half century published papers demonstrating that if a heart is either blocked or stopped for some reason, the heart is not functioning the blood flow doesn't go to zero. Something else is involved in persisting flow It doesn't flow at the same rate by any means, it's much slower but it keeps going. In the case of my student studying the flow in the chick embryo when the heart is stopped by injecting potassium chloride, flow continues he demonstrated the same as what other people demonstrated. He keeps going and kind of surprised because we expect the heart stops you're dead and there's no flow but that's not true. The flow persists for say

50:44 more than an hour. And as I said, it's reported in other labs but nobody pays attention because it seems too exotic to be true but we have clear evidence that it's true so there's got to be some mechanism that drives it and when we first found this phenomenon of flow-in tubes then each the same how he founded this was also a kind of student who is maybe being slightly disobedient and well, maybe that's not the right word. His eyes were open so he had an experiment where he was using the same material that I mentioned called Nafion and it builds very nice exclusion zones next to it

51:23 And we found that Nafion comes not only in the sheets that we had used but also as tubes. So it's like a straw and the material is made of Nafion and his job was to look in the microscope and see if he put this tube in water, that contained microspheres could actually detect an EZ? We expected an EZ has an annular region just inside the tube, inside the wall of the tube and just outside the wall of the tube running along the length. and he could confirm that but he found something else. I distinctly will remember that day because it's unforgettable to me because of the magnitude of his accidental discovery, so i'm sitting in my office same office from which i'm speaking right now

52:07 I had a visitor, can't remember who the visitor was but obviously it must have been kind of non-impacting visitor otherwise that might have remembered. And we're sitting and talking and the student comes barging in usually students don't do that they have a modicum of politeness especially if I'm sitting with somebody else so poke their head or something he came in and practically in the middle of a sentence I was talking to the guy, he said you know i just discovered something and I thought it's important enough for me to tell you. So he goes on to tell me he said now the tube is sitting horizontally at the bottom of the chamber and he's looking inside the tube with a lens of a microscope and he said there's flow inside the tube and the flow just keeps going it won't stop and I thought this might be important

52:56 I thought if this is really true and we checked it out in the next few days and it was clearly true. If this is true, it's really important because usually in order to have flow inside a tube you need pressure typically for example your heart is developing the pressure which pushes the blood through the tube through your large arteries and such but he found in these narrow tubes He said the flow is no pressure gradient, no difference of pressure. No high pressure at one end and low pressure at the other as you'd find in a cardiovascular system but it was just lying there horizontally and he's looking with a microscope and the flow just continues. We actually we could have it going for up to a day-and-a-half before slow down for reasons that we actually understand but I thought if it's really true since

53:46 and we know that the water is absorbing energy from the environment as I pointed out a few moments ago, this could be confirming evidence that this energy that's coming it really does come in really does get absorbed. It actually put to use in some way because of driving flow so I was really excited about this finding and then then I went to Russia to see a colleague of mine after we had found us and studied Again, light was the energy that was driving this because we had more light and get faster flow. So I went to visit my friend Vladimir Vyakov at Moscow University and as they went to his lab but the first thing he's an old friend of mine first things is I want you to meet my colleague in the next laboratory

54:35 And colleague in the next laboratory came over, sat down with his assistant and they started talking to me. Unfortunately I couldn't understand the Russian but it was translated by my friend and what they were telling me is that there's a big problem in the cardiovascular system and I'm thinking what kind of big problem can there be? PhD thesis simulating the dynamics of flow and pressure in the cardiovascular system. And quite arrogantly, I thought we had all the answers Until I spoke to him at greater length and he convinced me of the serious problem within 15 minutes. So what's the problem? The problem is that the capillaries, the smallest capillaries in healthy young adults, the diameter is 3-4 micrometers and red blood cells that need to pass through are

55:31 are 6 or 7 micrometers. So it's kind of like stuffing a basketball through an arrow hoop, you got to push it through or as I like to say sometimes is like stuffing up your toilet and in order to drive the stuff through to clear your toilet bowl, you need to get a plunger and you need to apply a lot of energy to kind of push and push and finally clears The situation is pretty much the same in the capillary and it looks like Mother Nature screwed up because no engineer would do such a thing. to have stuff that's twice the diameter of the tube. It just simply doesn't work and he said, we calculated how much energy is required? I don't know if his calculation was right or not but he came up with something like if a heart were fully responsible for doing all this pushing of the blood through at this small capillary, the heart would need to develop something like 1 million times

56:30 And even if he's off by a factor of 10 or 100, it is still very major problem that you could see intuitively as an issue. Actually if you watch the flow through the capillaries we've done that, you don't see any pulsatility. It looks like the flow in the capillaries is smooth and steady doesn't go push-push-push like to the rhythm of the heart so it seems disconnected And so he said, there's got to be something else that some other energy is driving the flow. And of course immediately despite my jet lag I could think oh you know we just saw in the laboratory

57:07 that you could get flow through tubes and the energy that's required is energy from the environment, from light especially infrared energy. I'm thinking maybe this applies and so I spoke to my student who still didn't have a project and I explained to him that this is a possibility that maybe there's flow phenomenon that we saw in the laboratory could be driving the flow in capillaries and it dependent on infrared There's lots of infrared energy coming from all the metabolic heat develops or you can add some from outside too either way and that could be put to use for driving it. So he admits to me three years later that he thought my idea was preposterous but accepted in any way and after he began doing experiments, he is now absolutely convinced by his evidence that this is true so the bottom line

58:00 is that for all of us, if his evidence holds up and I believe it should because it seems pretty clear that the heart is not the only supplier of energy to push the blood through the system. There's another one in auxiliary that is in the small vessels perhaps the capillaries or maybe arterioles or somewhere along the line. There's another mechanism and that mechanism is one that's based on easy water and if you wish I can tell you about two or three minutes, I just don't want to...I know we have a lot of other questions but we know pretty much how it works so it's in the book Fourth Phase Book which as he says gotten pretty popular

58:43 Yes, it has. And rightfully so I really do love it all but I would like to spend the last bit of time we have together trying to get beyond what's in the book if you don't mind but for the main event here I think we can call that a wrap You've been really generous with your time and thank you so much Yeah, thank you very much for the interesting questions. I really appreciate that Well the least i could do is have some questions for you but it was quite fun definitely an honor and a pleasure i know You got to go! I will make sure To tell the people about your books And website remind them of all that good stuff keep doing The great work you're doing and have A good one okay my pleasure greg okay take care bye

59:30 Rock me like a hurricane, Hireside Chatters. How was that? Dr Gerald Pollack! The water wizard himself Again I'm sorry it was a little short but that plus show where the respectable incredible Dr Pollack goes on about his other interests in weird science to me is pretty amazing He's just such a nice, genuine guy. I definitely wanted to be respectful of his personal obligations and not take up more time than i agreed to so I cut him loose and said look...I can tell the people that they should check out more on your website! I can tell them that The Fourth Phase Of Water is the book they should pick up to get started And that's what I'm doing now

1:00:13 Please do support Dr. Pollack, promote him study his work and let him know that you liked hearing from him and you want to hear more on THC in particular because I really pestered him for this and i do want him to know that his time was well spent, his message received, and that it was an opportunity as much as it was a granted courtesy to the guy who wouldn't stop emailing As for the show itself, I definitely didn't want to retread too much ground from Dr. Pollack's other interviews or why am i even bothering the man? So I thought I would just hit two of those starter questions The first being what chapters in the history of water science are worth telling as a way of setting the stage for A How there could really be so many fundamental aspects of water that we haven't fully explored yet

1:01:06 and b, how the scientific quarantine either imposed by funding or self-imposed by established bias which I think is subconsciously encouraged but regardless how that interferes as well. You know i like exploring that with things like energy and transportation and medicine it's important to know the road you're on and you have to open people up to there even being more to know before you hit them with the paradigm changing stuff And then the other intro question was how do we summarize this work and what Easy Water even is for people who don't know? You gotta try. But with those two questions, we were a third done and I had a minor panic attack but luckily for at least the larger THC audience We talked about a lot of this stuff with Dr Stephen Hussey in the last episode especially on the health side

1:02:01 So I went straight to the energy side because so many of Dr. Pollack's other interviews are dominated by the health side, and i get it we want to know what we can do to increase the magic elixir of the EZ gods? And yes! Easy water is key to understanding the infrared and juice cleanse healing modalities homeopathy as well It revolutionizes the concept of the heart and blood flow...it's no small thing And I've heard people ask him about the effects of fluoride, glyphosate, sugar and heavy metals on structured water or the ratio of easy water in our bodies. And surprise surprise! It's not good! We already know these things aren't great for us so let's talk about water engines rather than a new understanding of why poison in the food supply might be a problem.

1:02:55 But I do find it all to be pretty revolutionary and great evidence that supports the elegance and importance of our natural holistic systems over the cold mechanical AI controlled cookie cutter life of mundane numbness. And i'm sorry The Plus Show is so juicy, and so private Obviously, that's how we do the show and the nature of a conversation is that it gets deeper towards the end not at the beginning. But in The Plus Show Dr. Pollack talked about the Earth's net negative charge and how we might use that. And primarily Shimon Jenir's deep questions on cavitation water transmutation and the work of Mark LeClaire and also flight electrostatic and rotation I think you know what were getting out there

1:03:45 But yeah, sign up for THC Plus if you want to get the full show. Not just this episode but every episode! We don't do sponsors or networks or any of that it's just me and you baby. Just a touch on a few things I've heard Dr Pollack bring up in other interviews that are interesting... I've heard him talk about the Hunza people they live in a fairly isolated area of Pakistan in the Himalayas But the stories are that they can easily live to be 120, sometimes 150. They don't get cancer. Women can get pregnant in their 60s 70s 80s some even say 90's! They have a well-established shamanic tradition as a side note but they are also living off glacier water and apricots largely I've also read that they drink this water that is so high in mineral content it's almost thick

1:04:42 Well, gel-like is a structured water descriptor and I'm sure this is a huge piece of their longevity increasing lifestyle. People might also know Dave Asprey from Bulletproof Coffee. I interviewed him here way back in the day, but he is a big Dr. Pollack fan as well and we know that bubbles increase easy because around each one is an easy layer and that becomes another reason why this bulletproof coffee thing seems to increase health because blending it with butter is a part of that process. Homeopathy, a big part of that process is shaking and creating bubbles something is up here how much of our sick society and crippled immune systems could be healed with this information? Of course validation from the system is only so valuable but get this man a Nobel Prize

1:05:38 I don't know, but i'd find myself just staring at a glass of water now holding my drink up into the sun's rays even for just a minute. It's probably psychological but we know the power of the mind But just as the keto diet centers around getting your body to process fats as energy instead of carbs and sugar, Dr. Pollack has also talked about this breatharian movement. Nassim Haramein, as popular as he is, claims that he's gone years without eating and maybe this structured water context can explain that!

1:06:14 The documentary on it is called Eat the Sun. Well, Dr. Pollack has explained this system as a sort of human photosynthesis and I'm pretty open to it now that a person can sustain themselves on high easy water content in their bodies and sunlight. I don't want to live like that though! I'm still an American damnit but guys like Dr. Pollack are the ones that bridge the gap between academia and The Alternative He mentioned Dean Radin in the Plus show. Dean Radin's latest book is titled Magic Is Real! I mean we are at the gates of the dominant of wider inclusion and it feels fine big thanks to both Dr. Radin and Dr. Pollack, all these one foot in one foot out folks who are willing to go full weirdo with someone like me on a show called The Higher Side Chats

1:07:11 It's not good for anyone's image, and they're comfortable and confident enough to take the chance. So I try really hard to make sure they leave feeling just as comfortable and confident but i hope you liked it and i hope you pencil some of this stuff in on your reality map get yourself a copy of The Fourth Phase Of Water give it to your teachers give it to your kids alternative thinkers love to promote their ideas and with shows like this I try to give you better data better information Stuff that can actually push us forward more than an angry shaking fist ever will. So go to PollockLab.org Maybe I'll see you at the conference in Germany next year Or if you want to donate any kind of money to research, I would avoid the bottomless pits that have formed under all the various conditions we can get from our backwards lifestyles and i'd put a few bucks into something like Dr. Pollack's Institute for Venture Science

1:08:13 Let me just read its mission statement from his website. By virtue of their break with ideas that may have become more traditional than forward-looking concepts, these fresh challenges may lead to fundamental breakthroughs in understanding. The IVS identifies the most promising ideas that challenge prevailing paradigms from each selective thesis. It will simultaneously fund multiple research teams working independently in various nations around the world. Funding multiple laboratories increases the likelihood that this challenge will bear fruit." This is how we break quarantine, right? So respect the man and thanks for listening!

1:09:13 But I hope we don't mind too much a slightly shorter show that packs a punch of higher than average potency. I should say that I do have an extra 1 hour plus bonus show in the works, so you'll get that when it's ready and end up with more than usual paid extra content, be on the lookout for it! Also, I should say that our joint session is going to be on the 20th this month. Man! This month is flying by That is Monday...Monday-Monday So please come and join me for a little digital hang But I gotta get out of here. I'll catch you next time Your move dark sorcerers of the scientific quarantine and promoters of the cold mechanical materialist mindset You're fucking... Oh no You see The world

1:10:12 and randomness attached to puppet strings Control over a thing The nine-to-five is trying to steal ya Now don't that job seem silly? Hello, can you hear me Or should I play back recordings from some spying agency Wish we were younger and free I'll be thankful when it's all exposed The vast conspiracy There is such a difference Between Nina and the Denver Bulls, yeah Hollow from the highest ceiling Out of the cracks They'll tell you the story

1:11:20 of everything that's been done and they'll call out deception from the web that's been spun. Hello from the higher side, the earth is high They'll tell you about something no one else will Have you heard? Have you heard about the real sense of wrong People know they're cartoons It's so typical of me to talk about the stuff I'm sorry that's good and well Did you ever hear the argument That nothing really happens? It's no secret And that the best is plush It's doubling your time

1:12:36 Hello from the higher side They're calling out a thousand cries They'll tell you something you least have done And they'll call out deception On the web that's been spawned Hello from the higher side Challenging your paradise And I'll tell you something That the battle's begun But we can't fight it with violence The mind's where it is won At the war, at the war I'm out from a higher side They're calling out of fire They'll tell you what they really have done

1:14:08 of the web that's been spun from the higher side. Challenging your path, and I'll tell you that the battle has begun but we can't fight it with violence. The mind's where is one that's stuck